Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-07-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:07 mdiep is the v6-pugs; source in the pugs tree?
00:07 mdiep (I guess it'd make sense that it is)
00:09 clkao_ joined perl6
00:11 mdiep clkao_: is all the v6 code in the pugs tree?
00:14 audreyt mdiep: perl5/
00:14 audreyt yes
00:14 audreyt perl5/PC-P6
00:14 mdiep audreyt: can I get a commit bit?
00:14 audreyt mdiep: email?
00:14 mdiep audreyt: [email@hidden.address]
00:14 audreyt welcome aboard, add your name to AUTHORS!
00:15 mdiep cool. thanks! :-)
00:15 audreyt dinner &
00:15 mdiep heh. my name's already in AUTHORS :-)
00:16 clkao_ mdiep: yes, i have a branch under pX/clkao, which does the data::bind-ism callconv and signature
00:23 meppl gute nacht
00:28 dolmen joined perl6
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00:39 buubot joined perl6
00:41 TreyHarris so C<...> will returnan exception if use fatal is not set, but will throw an exception otherwise, right?
00:55 buubot joined perl6
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01:46 weinig is now known as weinig|zzz
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02:06 audreyt TreyHarris: right
02:31 scook0 joined perl6
02:59 justatheory joined perl6
03:06 * nothingmuch performs an amazing spin kick 43 meters in the air, landing soundlessly on his head
03:08 markstos joined perl6
03:09 markstos I'm migrating Class::ISA to Perl6 and am getting this error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length"
03:09 markstos How should I call "length" now?
03:10 markstos I think I found my answer in Differences.pod
03:15 nothingmuch ah
03:15 nothingmuch that's a pretty tough one
03:16 * nothingmuch quits irssi to set timezone
03:17 nothingmuch joined perl6
03:20 TreyHarris ?eval defined fail
03:20 evalbot_11061 is now known as evalbot_11065
03:20 evalbot_11065 *** Failed     at <eval> line 1, column 1-13
03:21 PerlJam markstos: if you want "length in characters", you call .chars
03:22 markstos Perljam: Thanks, I found that.
03:22 markstos Has something changed about how the ISA variable is used? That part of the code now runs, but causes an infinite loop....
03:23 nothingmuch markstos: the ISA variable is... errmmm.
03:23 nothingmuch you prolly wanna use the MOP for introspection
03:23 nothingmuch only we haven't gotten there yet
03:23 markstos Oh.
03:24 markstos I'm basically trying to say "show me all the things I inherit from".
03:26 markstos Does ISA even exist anymore? There' s not a single test which mentions it in the suite.
03:28 PerlJam markstos: not in that form, no.
03:29 PerlJam perl6 will have lots of ways of introspection, but they're not all fleshed out.
03:30 markstos Ok. I guess my porting project is on hold for the moment, then.
03:32 stevan joined perl6
03:32 nothingmuch markstos: short answer: you won't need Class::ISA in Perl 6
03:33 nothingmuch look in s12 (The bottom) for some previews
03:33 stevan markstos: you will be able to do something like: $foo.meta.class_precendence_list() to get all the parents in the correct ordering
03:34 stevan that will be equivalent to Class::ISA::self_and_super_path
03:34 PerlJam I think I'll re-read the synopses before bed tonight. All sorts of stuff has changed and while I've kept up with some of it, a cohesive whole is better to look at that a bunch of parts :)
03:34 markstos Thanks for the answers everyone.
03:35 markstos Is this a feature to expect to appear in the near term? Just curious.
03:35 stevan PerlJam: what I am talking about is not in Syn 12, Larry has basically said that the meta API is not part of the language, but instead part of the runtime (or at least this is how I understood it when audreyt told me)
03:35 audreyt markstos: Class::MOP backport? yes, that's when stevan arrives
03:35 stevan audreyt: I am here :)
03:35 audreyt in obra's house?
03:35 audreyt wow
03:35 audreyt somehow I missed you
03:35 audreyt come upstairs and say hi
03:35 stevan dont turn around,..
03:36 markstos You two...
03:36 PerlJam audreyt: you know how all geeks look alike
03:36 stevan the commisars in town ....
03:36 * stevan keeps singing Falco in his head
03:36 stevan its amazing the associations ADD will make
03:37 stevan s/will/will cause you to/
03:37 audreyt stevan has ADD?
03:37 audreyt I never knew that
03:37 stevan audreyt: if you dont know,.. I wont tell you now
03:37 PerlJam so ... what's the plural of moose?  Is it meese?
03:37 markstos audreyt: Are you suggesting porting Class::MOP  from p5 to p6? I'm confused.
03:37 stevan markstos: Class::MOP is a bridge to Perl 6
03:37 audreyt PerlJam: plural of mosse is moose
03:37 audreyt markstos: I'm suggesting implementing natively .meta
03:38 audreyt in the haskell runtime
03:38 nothingmuch but first it needs to be designed
03:38 markstos :)
03:38 nothingmuch *cough*
03:38 audreyt I thought that's what we did
03:38 audreyt in YAPC::NA
03:38 audreyt namely taking Moose and add Module/Package
03:38 audreyt that should be good enough no?
03:38 nothingmuch oh, so just CLOSish Class::MOP?
03:38 * stevan stares blankly
03:38 nothingmuch i thought that was just for the bridge
03:38 audreyt no it's also for the hs runtime
03:38 nothingmuch what about the prototype object model?
03:38 audreyt should keep identical
03:38 markstos But right now, could do I the trick where I load p5 Class::MOP into Perl6? :)
03:39 stevan prototype, schmototype
03:39 audreyt markstos: you can certainly try :)
03:39 * nothingmuch wants prototype object waaaaaaah
03:39 audreyt (but at which point you mise well write in p5 at this point)
03:39 audreyt nothingmuch: protometa can be done in p5 as well
03:39 nothingmuch waaaaaaaaaaaah
03:39 audreyt nothingmuch: just use anonclass gensym to emu
03:39 nothingmuch yeah
03:39 stevan markstos: yes,.. what audreyt said (damn these webbed fingers)
03:39 nothingmuch i think tha'ts what Moose does
03:39 nothingmuch sort of
03:40 nothingmuch stevan: maybe you should take a shower, so that the web can wash off?
03:40 markstos I'm really trying to port CGI::Application. So if I can port that Perl6, and replace Class::ISA with p5 Class::MOP, I'll be happy for now.
03:40 PerlJam stevan: are you a platymoose?
03:40 * stevan will make nothingmuch a small protomodel to have for his very own
03:40 audreyt markstos: I think it's best to start a p5 port to Moose
03:40 nothingmuch markstos: i'm not sure you wanna go there
03:40 audreyt and we will deal with syntactic conversion after that
03:40 * nothingmuch agrees with audreyt
03:41 nothingmuch also, C::A should probably stay in p5 land, for maximum compatibility
03:41 nothingmuch while a p6 version makes use of the crazier features
03:41 stevan markstos: I have many things to show you then,.. like our Moose layer over CGI::App that we use for work
03:41 markstos Whoa.
03:41 stevan markstos: did you talk to robkinyon at YAPC?
03:42 markstos stevan: I didn't even see him there.
03:42 miyagawa joined perl6
03:42 markstos stevan: I'm not sure I know his photo to recognize him.
03:42 stevan markstos: ah, oh well
03:42 * stevan orders nothingmuch to produce a moose picture
03:42 nothingmuch markstos: http://flickr.com/photos/nuffin/179250393/
03:42 lambdabot Title: "DSC_3329.jpg on Flickr - Photo Sharing!"
03:43 markstos So the consensus seems to be that it makes more sense to migrate CGI::App p5 from Class::ISA to Class::MOP as a first step ?
03:43 nothingmuch i would bet my money on some role based wackiness
03:43 stevan markstos: yes,.. keeping in p5 land for now
03:43 stevan yes, roles are good,.. they are the perfect plugin system
03:43 nothingmuch and rely on the perl 5 compatibility bridges for C::A apps
03:43 nothingmuch well, not perfect, but almost
03:43 petdance joined perl6
03:43 markstos Ok. That's only ironic because I started the project to be able to dabble in Perl6. :)
03:44 stevan markstos: 90% of Moose features will be easily (if not automatically) portable to Perl 6
03:44 markstos Oh. I did meet Rob, I just didn't know it.
03:44 stevan markstos: dont let us stop you if you wanna play with perl 6 :)
03:44 audreyt to play with Moose is to play with perl6 :)
03:45 markstos He was explaining why OO is better than procedural programming to an innocent bystander...
03:45 petdance Hey markstos!
03:45 nothingmuch i'd imagine that was a painful process
03:45 stevan ah, you were there for that,.. I head about it
03:45 petdance What are you doin' here in perl6 world?
03:45 markstos audreyt: I'm sure you are right. I'll learn the new object moose meta model thingie better.
03:45 petdance I think I'm gonna be alester over here.
03:45 petdance is now known as alester
03:46 markstos alester: playin' and learning. Tinkerin' with a CGI::Application port
03:46 nothingmuch alester: how was your flight?
03:46 markstos which turned into a Class::ISA port... which turned into this IRC conversation...
03:46 alester nothingmuch: What flight?
03:46 nothingmuch err, antiflight
03:46 alester I live in McHenry.  2 hours away from IIT.
03:46 stevan flight from the hackathon
03:46 nothingmuch (stevan just corrected me)
03:46 nothingmuch i assumed you would fly because for some reason i decided you were further east
03:46 alester We fed Randal and Alias
03:46 stevan alester: he meant how was you pizza,..
03:46 alester it was delicious
03:47 alester also, cute waitress.
03:47 stevan mmmm, wonder-bread and cheese
03:47 * stevan feed chromatic, gaal, nothingmuch, robkinyon and allison
03:48 alester Hackathon at my house tomorrow!  Whoo!
03:48 stevan I will wave from the plane as we leave chicago airspace
03:48 nothingmuch you can retroactively feed us
03:49 perlbot joined perl6
03:50 alester Stevan: You will probably fly over my house.
03:50 alester We were talking about that on the way out here.
03:50 svnbot6 r11066 | lwall++ | Latest thinking on STM verbiage.
03:51 jkanter joined perl6
03:52 stevan markstos: if you have moose/Class::MOP questions, feel free to ask away on #moose as well
03:52 stevan over on irc.perl.org that is
03:52 markstos stevan: Thanks.
03:53 kattana_ hmmm it would be neat if you could use seti@home like grid software to take advantage of peoples home/desktop/workstation/dev computers during hackathons/lans to speed up things like compile&testing since many people bring laptops and not heavy duty machines, or at least link the laptops as enough of them would be equivilant to such a machine.
03:53 kattana_ is now known as Kattana
03:53 nothingmuch Kattana: ccache and distcc
03:53 nothingmuch apple has that with zeroconf support, actually
03:53 nothingmuch a.k.a "Bonjour"
03:54 * Kattana looks them up
03:55 Kattana those are only C/C++
03:56 nothingmuch true that
03:56 nothingmuch but pretty easy to implement for typical preprocess-compile-link cycle compilers
03:57 Kattana well, at least i dont have to do my own proof of concept.
03:57 nothingmuch note that ghc tends to be a bit funnier thoug
03:57 nothingmuch h
03:58 Kattana I had something more general in mind to speed things up tho, get the processing out of the way and take advantage of the time people are together
03:58 TimToady audreyt: I think I'm done thinking about STM for now.  I didn't like sync/resync because it implies different threads are doing the same thing at the same time.  After glaring at words for most of the day, I've settled on contend/defer instead.  alternates are still "maybe" though.
03:58 Kattana TimToady: did you get my pm I sent a while ago?
03:58 obra contend feels a little weird as a name. but I'm coming at this as "j random perl5 hacker"
03:58 TimToady pm?
03:58 audreyt TimToady: sure. so maybe needs to line up?
03:58 Kattana PrivateMessage
03:59 audreyt also I'm imagining these are imported from some package
03:59 audreyt use Threads::STM;
03:59 audreyt to avoid clashing
03:59 TimToady I doubt "contend" will class with much.  "defer" is a little likelier.
03:59 TimToady *clash
04:00 TimToady anyway, I like the metaphor of having an intellectual argument between threads
04:00 audreyt yup
04:01 * Kattana wonders when we will be advanced enough to have flamewars between threads
04:01 nothingmuch Kattana: STM is kinda that
04:02 nothingmuch they stupidly try to restate their point till something listens ;-)
04:03 Kattana isnt that more like trolling.
04:04 audreyt Software Troll Memory
04:04 Debolaz joined perl6
04:04 TimToady Kattana: I don't recall getting a pm.
04:05 Kattana I will resend then.
04:05 alester TimToady is Larry, right?
04:05 TimToady that's what they tell me.
04:06 nothingmuch Kattana: make sure you're registered with nickserv
04:06 TimToady or just send email
04:06 Kattana hmm.. ty
04:07 TimToady larry at wall dot org
04:08 clkao_ nothingmuch!
04:08 nothingmuch clkao_: !
04:09 nothingmuch i think you friended the wrong nothingmuch on flickr, btw
04:09 nothingmuch clkao_: so are we going hiking?
04:09 nothingmuch i'd like to tell my mother "this is the guy that's going to prootect me from bears and rapists"
04:10 Kattana pm sent, not worth the effort of email.
04:11 TimToady got it, thanks!
04:14 Kattana good, now get with the times "email is only for old people" :p
04:14 clkao_ nothingmuch: what is the actual plan
04:15 nothingmuch clkao_: rent/bus to Franconia notch state park
04:15 nothingmuch then as per jwang's advice go via the loop
04:15 nothingmuch mt. flume, lafayette, twins, maybe bonds too
04:15 nothingmuch depending on progress and rate
04:15 nothingmuch i have maps + book to clarify details
04:16 nothingmuch and my del.icio.us page has some untagged pages
04:16 clkao_ nothingmuch: that's where you showed me with google map the other day? and which day
04:16 nothingmuch leave thursday, return monday
04:16 clkao_ dude, my flight is on sunday
04:17 nothingmuch oh
04:17 nothingmuch so return saturday?
04:17 nothingmuch if we have a car we don't need as much schedule padding
04:17 clkao_ *nod*
04:17 clkao_ you arrive tomorrow afternoon?
04:17 nothingmuch yep
04:17 clkao_ let's decide over dinner. that's easier
04:17 clkao_ so tired
04:17 nothingmuch okay
04:17 nothingmuch spleep!
04:17 nothingmuch oh
04:17 nothingmuch rob tought us an awesome trick for the SSV dorms
04:18 nothingmuch when the guy is not paying attention, pass the blipper several times
04:18 nothingmuch robkinyon++
04:18 nothingmuch too bad we're the only ones still here ;-)
04:22 TimToady no we're not...
04:24 nothingmuch TimToady: still about?
04:24 nothingmuch well, you don't have stowaways, right?
04:25 TimToady I'm still here till 10:44 tomorrow morning.
04:25 nothingmuch hmm
04:25 nothingmuch then I guess gaal's ride doesn't hel pmuch
04:25 TimToady I traded a 7-day card with someone who's card lasts till tomorrow, so I'm all set.
04:26 TimToady *whose
04:26 TimToady but have to leave here about about 7:30
04:34 Yaakov Hello, Larry.
04:34 TimToady howdy.
04:35 nothingmuch TimToady: good luck waking up =)
04:36 TimToady I'll have to find my emergency toothpicks for propping open my eyelids...
04:37 TimToady but I contend that I should defer that till morning, maybe...
04:39 audreyt zzz &
04:40 TimToady me2 &
04:40 Entonian joined perl6
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04:49 * gaal meows
04:49 * stevan wonders if that is some kind of moose mating call
04:50 gaal no, it's what happens when you stand in a party next to a moose and somebody askes who wants another beer and the moose turns to look at you and bonks you with its antlers.
04:51 stevan :)
04:56 markstos Switching from Class::ISA to Class::MOP was two lines for CGI::Application. One for the 'use' line, and one for the method call. Very nice.
04:56 markstos I'm pushing 4.07_01 to CPAN now with this change.
04:57 stevan markstos: nice! my Class::MOP Kwalitee will go up ;)
04:58 fglock hi!
04:59 stevan fglock++
04:59 stevan fglock: I meet many people at YAPC who wanted to talk to you :)
04:59 fglock hi stevan!
04:59 stevan lots of interest in Pugs::Compiler::*
04:59 fglock I wish I was there
04:59 stevan I told them all to go to YAPC::SA
05:00 fglock cool! I'm sorry I couldn't get sponsors interested :(
05:01 fglock It would be cool to see you here!
05:02 stevan fglock: I would love to be a globe trotting perl superstar like audreyt, but alas the wife and kids would miss me
05:02 fglock yes I know :)
05:03 nothingmuch well, as a globe trotting superstar you could make more money
05:03 fglock I'm rewriting the grammar - the cool part is that I can now decide whether to write it in P6 or P5
05:03 nothingmuch so the kids will have a replacement for love
05:03 alester is now known as petdance
05:03 stevan actually the dog is the one who is most disturbed by my absence right now
05:03 fglock nothingmuch :)
05:04 stevan the kids have my parents to entertain them
05:06 clkao_ fglock!
05:06 fglock clkao_: hi!
05:07 clkao_ fglock: i am making &?ROUTINE work
05:07 clkao_ do you plan to refactor the current emitter to different node classes or some sort? it's getting too huge
05:08 fglock clkao_: the plan is to migrate to nothingmuch's emitter - ask him :)
05:08 fglock I'm refactoring the grammar to emit something closer to p6ast
05:10 clkao_ ya, using the emitter, of course. but i meant the tree traversal part
05:10 * nothingmuch winks at fglock
05:10 * stevan wonders enjoys the meta-circularity of using a Moose based module to emit code which targets Moose
05:11 fglock clkao_: I'm ok with refactoring the emitter
05:11 fglock stevan: that's pretty close to happen
05:11 nothingmuch fglock: we'll have a chat tomorrow when i'm at obra's, deal?
05:12 nothingmuch i need a requirement list
05:12 nothingmuch the p6ast is slightly closer to the metal than what I was targetting
05:12 nothingmuch but is a pretty easy mapping
05:12 clkao_ fglock: also nnunley is interested in working on a c emitter
05:12 fglock nothingmuch: the ast emitted by v6.pm is close to the grammar
05:12 nothingmuch clkao_: you were msged on irc.perl.org
05:13 nothingmuch fglock: i'm not sure what you mean, but what i've seen from v6.pm is pretty high level
05:13 fglock clkao_: cool - I started working on one - I think it can be very useful for bulding low-level libraries
05:13 nothingmuch which *is* what I'm working on
05:13 nothingmuch although it's not that high up (parse tree)
05:16 fglock nothingmuch: the v6.pm tree is the requirement list, kind of - do you need blessed nodes?
05:16 nothingmuch fglock: i abuse them a lot for convenience
05:16 nothingmuch can we punt this till tomorrow? i need to pack and sleep
05:17 fglock what time? this is too late for me - about 10h earlier is ok
05:17 clkao_ ok, &?ROUTINE.name works
05:17 nothingmuch err
05:17 clkao_ now to make CALLER::CALLER etc work
05:17 nothingmuch hmm
05:17 nothingmuch we land at 16:30 or so, i think
05:17 nothingmuch or is that 14:30 or so?
05:17 nothingmuch probably the latter
05:18 nothingmuch hmm
05:18 nothingmuch i think i can get you ~6 hrs earlier
05:18 nothingmuch maybe even ~8 hrs earlier
05:18 fglock clkao_: may I add you to the cpan v6.pm maintainers?
05:18 clkao_ fglock: sure!
05:18 fglock nothingmuch: ok
05:19 petdance left perl6
05:19 clkao_ btw, caller().file is still parsed funnily
05:20 clkao_ oh, i accidentally fixed that along
05:20 clkao_ s/parsed/emitted/
05:20 fglock clkao_: I'm refactoring the parser - I hope to fix methods and such
05:20 nothingmuch =)
05:21 fglock nothingmuch, stevan: may I add you to the cpan v6.pm maintainers?
05:21 stevan fglock: sure
05:22 stevan although I dont think I have done anything on it (at least not yet)
05:22 clkao_ fglock: i am committing my fix. the "call" and "method_call" emittion is nasty
05:22 nothingmuch fglock: okay
05:22 fglock stevan: it helps when people start reporting bugs :)
05:23 clkao_ i hope i didn't break other things. now testing..
05:23 stevan fglock: okay :)
05:24 fglock clkao_: better test before commit...
05:26 clkao_ it passes tests!
05:26 fglock the cpan thing is done
05:27 clkao_ fglock: i can make caller().package work next. mostly runtime stuff for me. can you make regex and flag capture parse?
05:27 svnbot6 r11067 | clkao++ | Support &?ROUTINE and &?ROUTINE.name.
05:27 fglock clkao_: I'm moving the statement syntax from Yapp to rules, it should be easier to maintain
05:27 clkao_ then we are down to 2 things to make test.pm work
05:27 clkao_ YAYA
05:27 clkao_ i will watch carefully and learn from that
05:27 clkao_ but now i need some sleep
05:28 fglock I think I'll fork until it works
05:28 clkao_ in pX?
05:28 clkao_ should i merge my data::bind support changes before you branch?
05:28 clkao_ otherwise it can be nastier later
05:31 clkao_ the data::bind support needs a way to tell if the callee is builtin or other native p5 code.
05:33 fglock_ joined perl6
05:34 clkao_ fglock: did you see my irc lines?
05:34 svnbot6 r11068 | clkao++ | pull from perl5/PC-P6.
05:35 fglock_ clkao: I backlogged - sorry, the computer died - 3rd time today
05:35 fglock_ clkao_: can you make data::bind optional? I'm on windows, can't compile right now (I've got mingw, but it is not working)
05:37 clkao_ oh ok. i will try to make it so tomorrow
05:37 svnbot6 r11069 | clkao++ | * No capture for return yet.
05:37 svnbot6 r11069 | clkao++ | * No binding yet.
05:37 svnbot6 r11069 | clkao++ | * Requires Data::Bind.
05:37 clkao_ though it makes it a bit hard to test
05:37 clkao_ fglock_: how is it not working? what perl5 version are you using?
05:37 fglock_ activeperl - it is asking for some header files
05:38 clkao_ ya. you don't have those?
05:39 fglock_ maybe - I didn't look too hard yet - I had it working in PxPerl before
05:40 clkao_ ok. but i think we really need those to support named args
05:40 clkao_ but that'd be tomorrow (did I say that a while ago?)
05:40 fglock_ I'll  try to fix my installation tomorrow
05:41 fglock_ clkao_: do you know when do you have to use \( ) syntax ?
05:42 fglock_ is ($a):=($b) the same as \($a):=\($b) ?
05:42 clkao_ \() creates a capture
05:43 clkao_ i am not sure it can be lvalue
06:00 clkao_ wow, i am the top committer for the last 100 commits!
06:00 clkao_ (svk log --filter 'stats')++
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06:03 clkao_ Newest commit : 2006-07-02
06:03 clkao_ Oldest commit : 2005-02-06
06:03 clkao_ Commits: 11069
06:03 clkao_ Commits per day : 21.7
06:03 clkao_ Committer count: 157
06:03 penk joined perl6
06:04 clkao_ Most active committers:
06:04 clkao_  - autrijus (2593)
06:04 clkao_  - iblech   (1203)
06:04 clkao_  - audreyt  (1016)
06:04 clkao_  - fglock   (992)
06:04 clkao_  - putter   (519)
06:04 clkao_ audreyt needs to work harder to beat autrijust
06:04 fglock clkao_: would you commit a test for the rule syntax you need?
06:05 clkao_ simply ~~ s:P5:g/XXX/YYY/;
06:05 clkao_ i really should go to bed ;)
06:05 fglock ok
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18:14 svnbot6 r11070 | clkao++ | Quick hack to make '&?CALLER::CALLER::ROUTINE' work.
18:17 svnbot6 r11071 | clkao++ |  r14948@ab (orig r11070):  clkao | 2006-07-02 14:13:38 -0400
18:17 svnbot6 r11071 | clkao++ |  Quick hack to make '&?CALLER::CALLER::ROUTINE' work.
18:17 clkao_ audreyt: \Foo->new()->something
18:18 audreyt (\(Foo->new()))->something
18:18 clkao i want \(foo->new->something)
18:19 audreyt you get that, sorry
18:19 audreyt Deparse was borken
18:22 audreyt ?eval 'abc' ~~ 'bc'
18:22 evalbot_11065 is now known as evalbot_11071
18:22 evalbot_11071 Bool::False
18:24 merlyn audreyt - did you see that I got pugs working?  was a matter of chown -R on .ghc
18:24 merlyn I'm going to be writing an article on p6 for linuxmag this weekend
18:25 audreyt merlyn: oh cool
18:25 audreyt excellent!
18:25 merlyn basically just a textual form of the learning perl talk we gave
18:25 merlyn quick intro, using the things we can already play with
18:26 tup joined perl6
18:26 merlyn probably also starting with C<print "Hello, World!\n"> to show that not much has necessarily changed. :)
18:27 wolverian then introduce say() and everyone will rejoice
18:28 merlyn exactly
18:28 merlyn I want to focus on how much perl5 really isn't going away, it's just getting a facelift, and most of everything everyone wants to keep is still there.
18:29 merlyn like damian's exegesis, but in my style. :)
18:30 audreyt :D
18:30 audreyt merlyn++
18:31 merlyn I'm more hungry for p6 to arrive now.  It still scares me as a businees owner, but at least I know more of why I want it to arrive sooner rather than later.
18:32 merlyn I wish I had another N minutes per week to specifically contribute to a project, but I'm afraid it'll have be limited to doc review where I point out that .uniq is hard to pronounce
18:32 obra merlyn: that's why getting p6 semantics into CPAN modules is so important.
18:32 obra it'll provide an actual gentle upgrade path
18:32 merlyn Now that brian and I are building training materials, we'll be looking specifically at things that don't get "spoken" well.
18:33 merlyn hopefully, we can correct some of these design items before they get committed in hard stone, and everyone doing a code review will rejoice
18:33 theorbtwo I don't see a problem pronouncing "uniq" as "unique"... or for that matter just as "uniq".
18:33 audreyt yes.
18:33 ZuluOne indeed
18:33 audreyt Synopsis reviews, as the ones uri has been doing in the hackathon, is also a good way
18:33 obra . o O { ubiq }
18:33 merlyn You can pronounce it as "unique".  then I will type ".unique" and it won't work
18:33 ZuluOne especially given the precedent
18:33 merlyn that's the problem
18:33 audreyt I like .unique, actually, since it's not unixy.
18:34 merlyn if you're going to use an english word, it needs to be spelled that way
18:34 merlyn and "pipe".  argh.  we're gonna wrestle on that one for sure.
18:34 MenTaLguY I don't think there's a pressing need to unix-spel things, yeah
18:34 merlyn pipe means "|" to millions of unix hackers.
18:34 merlyn even if you say "pipe operator"
18:34 merlyn they'll still think |
18:34 ZuluOne You now seem to be arguing for the opposite viewpoint.
18:35 justatheory joined perl6
18:35 merlyn no - I'm arguing for common meanings for things
18:35 merlyn the "uniq" command in unix is actually fairly unknown
18:35 merlyn but nearly everyone uses "|" at one point
18:35 ZuluOne never
18:35 ZuluOne Who hasn't heard of uniq?
18:35 merlyn ZuluOne - surely you're jesting
18:35 MenTaLguY This probably isn't the best place to ask that question
18:35 ZuluOne no
18:35 merlyn if not, you have a pretty narrow view
18:36 MenTaLguY Probably everyone HERE has, but I don't think we're particularly representative
18:36 ZuluOne Maybe just a pretty narrow set of friends.
18:36 merlyn I work with "casual unix users" all the time
18:36 merlyn almost all of them do "|" and call it "pipe"
18:36 merlyn very few have ever typed "uniq"
18:36 ZuluOne typing it isn't the problem
18:36 merlyn I think we're talking an order of magnitude difference
18:37 merlyn possibly even *two* orders of magnitude
18:37 merlyn trust me on this as an instructor
18:37 merlyn and as someone who has been around unix since 1977
18:37 ZuluOne I can count the number of times I have *used* uniq on one hand, probably, but that doesn't mean I haven't heard of it.
18:37 merlyn again ZuluOne - you're the rare one here
18:37 ZuluOne nah, I'm well done
18:37 merlyn heh
18:38 * merlyn has another 3.6 hours to kill at CVG
18:38 * merlyn patpats his EVDO card
18:38 MenTaLguY what is it in p6 that uses "pipe" spelled out, btw?
18:38 merlyn the specs
18:38 merlyn they call ==> as pipe
18:38 MenTaLguY oh.
18:38 merlyn which means that everyone i scalling it that
18:38 MenTaLguY ee, that is going to be brutal
18:38 merlyn which meanss it'll get into error messages as that
18:38 theorbtwo I suspect the "uniq" spelling comes from math originally, and unix got it from there.
18:39 merlyn We need another name that means what ==> and <== does
18:39 merlyn "tube" ? :)
18:39 MenTaLguY channel?
18:39 ZuluOne I don't think people will be calling ==> pipe when reading out programs.
18:39 ZuluOne I certainly don't, when reading them in my head.
18:39 merlyn ZuluOne - you've never been in code reviews or worked with someone over the phone then
18:39 merlyn you need NAMES for all OPERATORS
18:39 merlyn trust me
18:39 MenTaLguY Zulu: what do you call it then?
18:40 ZuluOne Especially given they go both ways.
18:40 lumi Piping? Arrow-pipe? Channel?
18:40 theorbtwo connector?
18:40 ZuluOne I can't bring it to mind right now. Probably feedto and feedfrom
18:40 merlyn pipe is nice because it's both a noun and a verb
18:40 merlyn it'd be good to do another thing like that
18:40 ZuluOne I will pay more attention next time I am talking to myself. :->
18:40 merlyn that's just my gut
18:40 lumi Like "channel"?
18:40 MenTaLguY channel's the best alternative I've heard so far, but it'd be nice to distinguish ==> and <==
18:41 ZuluOne like "I'm channelling $larry"?
18:41 fglock audreyt: I'm rewriting the Yapp grammar to rules - it'll be only be used for precedence, so that it is closer to p6-on-parrot grammar
18:41 MenTaLguY the other thing is that you can't really google for "==>"
18:41 MenTaLguY it needs a distinct name for that reason :P
18:42 theorbtwo Left channel and right channel works fine, I think.
18:42 audreyt fglock: good good
18:42 merlyn it'd have to be "channel left"
18:42 ZuluOne wait
18:42 merlyn to be verbed
18:42 theorbtwo Or channel in and channel out.
18:42 merlyn ugh "in" means which? :)
18:42 ZuluOne Which way does a channel left go? I don't find it sufficiently unambiguous.
18:42 merlyn I could see in meaning ==> or <==
18:42 merlyn yeah
18:42 merlyn those suck too
18:42 ZuluOne indeed
18:42 MenTaLguY hmm, actually googling for "==>" seems to break something
18:42 lumi foo ==> bar :: foo channels in bar?
18:42 merlyn heh
18:42 MenTaLguY you don't get the normal "no results" page
18:42 merlyn into
18:42 Aankhen`` is now known as Aankhen-EP
18:43 theorbtwo @foo ==> bar() -- channel @foo out to bar.
18:43 ZuluOne to and from work, I think
18:43 lambdabot Maybe you meant: faq todo yow
18:43 svnbot6 r11072 | clkao++ | * Emit for simple ~~ case (quotemeta exp2).
18:43 svnbot6 r11072 | clkao++ | * Don't bind yet for := when exp2 is not a scalar.
18:43 svnbot6 r11073 | clkao++ |  r14950@ab (orig r11072):  clkao | 2006-07-02 14:42:01 -0400
18:43 svnbot6 r11073 | clkao++ |  * Emit for simple ~~ case (quotemeta exp2).
18:43 svnbot6 r11073 | clkao++ |  * Don't bind yet for := when exp2 is not a scalar.
18:43 merlyn too bad "push" and "pull" mean something
18:43 theorbtwo @foo channel out bar parens.
18:43 lambdabot Maybe you meant: faq todo yow
18:43 MenTaLguY ==> and <== as the to and from operators
18:43 MenTaLguY hmm
18:43 MenTaLguY maybe
18:43 merlyn see - I could read either of those as "to"
18:43 ZuluOne not if you are reading code from left to right, surely
18:43 merlyn maybe I'm just weird
18:43 MenTaLguY heh.  or "to" and "fro" [sic]
18:43 merlyn fro!
18:43 merlyn g'fro dat data!
18:44 MenTaLguY well, you know, "to and fro"?
18:44 merlyn yeah I know
18:44 merlyn I'd rather be home right now, but at least I had a 4 hour connection instead of a 32 minute connection
18:44 MenTaLguY besides, the notion of a "fro" operator is perversely delightful
18:44 merlyn and since I got in 90 minutes late, I'm pretty sure my flight later today would have been nearly that too
18:45 merlyn and I would have missed the last flight home
18:45 ZuluOne at result fro grep left curly dollar underscore greater than 2 close curly fro at input semi
18:45 merlyn so anyway, I'll probably be popping in here a bit more often to ask questions and suggest nomenclature changes
18:45 merlyn or at least bringing up the issues.
18:45 theorbtwo Anyway, there's no reason we can't make .unique an alias for .uniq.
18:45 ZuluOne or vice-versa
18:45 theorbtwo (Or at least not much reason.)
18:45 fglock merlyn: have you tried v6.pm?
18:46 merlyn fglock - I just barely got pugs to work again yesterday :)
18:46 merlyn I built pugs with an embedded parrot.  I presume that's the normal model.
18:46 fglock merlyn: no pugs needed :) 'install v6' from cpan
18:46 merlyn Oh - no, I don't think I have
18:46 * merlyn scurries off
18:47 MenTaLguY is aliasitude symmetric?
18:47 merlyn fglock - do you have a cvs/svn that I should be tracking?
18:47 fglock it's in pugs svn - perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6/
18:47 merlyn ok - I have that already
18:48 wolverian theorbtwo, I think ruby shows that aliases aren't the solution.
18:48 merlyn I'm building git-svn mirrors of all svns so that I can see what's been changing at 30K feet
18:48 merlyn aliases actually suck
18:48 merlyn because peopel who don't know the alias wonder what the difference is
18:48 merlyn it's pretty distracting
18:48 theorbtwo Hm.
18:49 merlyn it also messes up googling
18:49 ZuluOne true, but you're going to make *someone* unhappy whatever
18:49 wolverian aliases are a slippery slope.
18:49 merlyn but as a designer, you *choose* to make some people unhappy
18:49 merlyn that's normal
18:49 MenTaLguY most aliases in Ruby exist because the original name was determined to suck (or was ungrammatical english), but had to be kept for backwards compatibility
18:49 clkao_ fglock: hey. i pretty much got all runtime support for test.pm done. only need :$negate in capture and ~~ s/// now.
18:49 theorbtwo How hard is it to just say "unique, that's u-n-i-q" -- or just pronounce "uniq".
18:49 merlyn a langauge cannot be all things to all people
18:49 MenTaLguY You don't really want to be designing in aliases from the beginning
18:49 clkao_ but the s// is tricky, involves '#' in it ;)
18:50 theorbtwo I like uniq, but possibly that has something to do with the fact that I use the unix command uniq constantly.
18:50 merlyn fglock - lots and lots of "use of uninitialized value in length" errors
18:50 merlyn is that normal?
18:50 merlyn perl is for far greater than unix geeks
18:51 merlyn fglock - I've never seen more errors during installation and test where it still says "ok" :)
18:52 fglock merlyn: no - try reinstalling Pugs-Compiler-Rule - check if tests pass
18:52 merlyn I think you set the record. :)
18:52 merlyn all of these from Pugs::Compiler::Rule line 24 and 48
18:52 merlyn s/Compiler/Grammer/
18:52 merlyn s/er/ar/
18:53 merlyn when I installed it last, the tests passed just fine
18:53 merlyn have you tested against 5.8.8?
18:53 merlyn heh... 90 lines of warnings, then "... ok" :)
18:53 fglock maybe PC-Rule Makefile.PL was not run? 5.8.8 here (windows)
18:54 merlyn when I installed PCR, I didn't have a working pugs before
18:54 merlyn so it used your files
18:54 merlyn anyway, this is humorous
18:54 merlyn I'll retest PCR in a second
18:54 merlyn after this completes the tests successfully
18:54 fglock Makefile.PL needs to be run in order to bootstrap the grammar (.pmc file)
18:55 merlyn fglock CPAN.pm does what it does
18:55 merlyn I didn't cheat on anything
18:55 merlyn and yet I have PCR installed
18:55 merlyn so Makefile.PL probably said "oh, you don't have pugs, we'll use this"
18:56 MenTaLguY silent "oh, you don't have X, we'll just use Y" things tend to be dangerous
18:56 MenTaLguY or at least maddening
18:57 fglock v6.pm doesn't need pugs - there must be a different problem - Makefile.PL should report common problems, like an old PadWalker or an invalid .pmc file - maybe CPAN.pm can't see the errors?
18:57 clkao_ fglock: got a chance to see if data::bind works for you?
18:58 merlyn well in any case, the tests here are passing
18:58 merlyn just geting lots and lots of warnings
18:59 merlyn as I said, almost comical
18:59 merlyn I presume if things were broken, I would not be getting test success?
18:59 fglock clkao_: not yet - I hope I can finish the grammar soon, than I'll try again
19:00 fglock merlyn: no messages in Pugs::Compiler::Rule Makefile.PL?
19:00 merlyn Uh - I can't test that yet
19:00 merlyn I did think I got something like "you don't have pugs installed, so I'm not recompiling anything"
19:00 merlyn I'm still waiting for v6 to finish installing
19:01 merlyn since I'm getting 10s of thousands of warnings. :)
19:01 merlyn once that's done, I'll go back and retest PCR
19:02 fglock Do you have an older v6.pm in your system? I've been bitten by this
19:02 merlyn I don't know
19:02 merlyn but the test harness is supposed to push the real thing there
19:02 merlyn perl -Mv6 didn't do what I wanted. :)
19:03 merlyn it says "perl 6 wanted, you have only 5.8.8" :)
19:03 merlyn ahh - perldoc -l v6 says nobody home
19:03 fglock v6 is special - it doesn't follow the normal rules
19:03 merlyn still waiting for millions of error messages to scroll by
19:04 theorbtwo Do it again with 2>/dev/null
19:04 theorbtwo ?
19:04 merlyn so far, no test failures
19:04 merlyn no point in restarting
19:04 merlyn it's almost done I hope
19:04 theorbtwo Ah.
19:04 * theorbtwo is off to pick up some chinese food.
19:05 TreyHarris merlyn: your discomfort with "to" and "fro/from" for the pipes--does the same discomfort exist with /<before ...>/ and /<after ...>/?
19:05 merlyn up to test t/07-try
19:05 merlyn TreyHarris - a bit
19:05 merlyn how many more tests are there?
19:05 merlyn I can't rememeber if its the text before me, or me before the text
19:06 merlyn ahh there.  installed!
19:06 fglock merlyn: I don't think it makes sense to wait for the tests if you are getting these messages
19:06 merlyn all tests passed
19:06 merlyn now I'll try PCR again
19:06 merlyn Ugh - what's the name?
19:07 fglock Pugs-Compiler-Rule
19:07 merlyn got it
19:07 merlyn I had 0.07 installed already
19:07 merlyn and the tests there also get hundreds of warnings
19:07 merlyn I don't think you've tested this on 5.8.8
19:07 TreyHarris merlyn: i think, then, that Perl just needs to make a decision, make it consistent, and use it.  without making all the ops visually mnemonic, and naming them complicatedly ("channel from thing to left to thing to right"), at some point a decision should just be made and stuck to.  the problem in P5 and most other languages is that we have both left-associative and right-associative things that cognitively collide
19:07 fglock would you reinstall PadWalker?
19:08 merlyn "PadWalker is up to date 1.0"
19:08 fglock is your Perl compiled with pmc support? see v6.pm pod
19:08 merlyn probably not
19:08 merlyn I have a stock perl
19:09 merlyn 5.8.8 bleed
19:09 merlyn soon to be 5.8.9 I hope :)
19:09 merlyn all tests pass on padwalker too
19:09 merlyn warning on t/closure because someone wrote a bad test
19:10 TreyHarris how does one test for PMC support?
19:10 merlyn squawk like a pirate. :)
19:10 fglock http://rt.cpan.org/Public/​Bug/Display.html?id=20152
19:10 lambdabot Title: "#20152: can&#39;t find own compile method"
19:10 fglock TreyHarris: looking
19:11 fglock you should not have 'DPERL_DISABLE_PMC' in the perl config
19:11 merlyn perl -V:'.*' | grep -i pmc
19:11 merlyn I don't have that for sure
19:12 merlyn ... Compile-time options: PERL_MALLOC_WRAP USE_LARGE_FILES USE_PERLIO
19:13 svnbot6 r11074 | clkao++ | v6.pm - Support caller().package.
19:13 clkao_ i think module::compile won't pass test if there's disable_pmc
19:13 merlyn And I just installed Module::Compile
19:13 merlyn Oh - does that make .pmc?
19:13 merlyn that's cool
19:13 clkao_ yes.
19:14 * merlyn makes note to use *that* for the SysAdmin column
19:14 clkao_ ingy's revenge on everyone hating spiffy
19:15 DaGo joined perl6
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19:15 merlyn so now that I have v6, what can I do? :)
19:15 TreyHarris so, i don't understand, why does Perl 5 even need to know about PMC's?  is it futureproofing against ponie somehow?
19:15 diotalevi The acronym predates parrot's pmcs.
19:16 fglock TreyHarris: pmc = precompiled perl module
19:16 audreyt TreyHarris: parrot .pmc files are never installed
19:16 merlyn yes unfortunate collision of terms
19:16 TreyHarris oh, ok.
19:16 clkao_ fglock: what grammar changes are you working on?
19:17 fglock audreyt: any ideas for merlyn problem with PCR?
19:17 merlyn perhaps the regex engine works differently
19:17 merlyn but oddly, it still passes tests
19:17 clkao_ merlyn: perl -Ilib lib/v6.pm -e 'say "foo"'
19:17 fglock clkao_: I'm moving the Yapp grammar in Operator.pm to Perl6.pm, and rewriting to Rule
19:17 clkao_ all of them?
19:18 fglock all 'statement'
19:18 fglock almost done :)
19:18 merlyn can't open perl script "lib/v6.pm"
19:18 merlyn did you mean something different?
19:19 fglock merlyn: in Pugs-Compiler-Perl6/
19:19 merlyn is there something I can just "do" in general?
19:19 merlyn from a normal command line? :)
19:19 fglock merlyn: would you paste the errors?
19:19 merlyn ... Can't open perl script "lib/v6.pm": No such file or directory
19:19 merlyn that error?
19:19 merlyn or when testing PCR?
19:19 fglock merlyn: PCR errors
19:20 merlyn OK hold one
19:20 clkao_ perl `perldoc -l v6` -e 'say "foo"'
19:20 pasteling "merlyn" at 70.217.181.166 pasted "from t/09 onward (the rest are the same)" (19 lines, 2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18158
19:21 fglock see the synopsis here http://search.cpan.org/~fgl​ock/v6-pugs-0.002/lib/v6.pm
19:21 lambdabot Title: "v6-pugs - an experimental Perl 6 implementation - search.cpan.org"
19:21 audreyt merlyn:
19:21 audreyt echo 'use v6-pugs;' > test.p6; echo 'say "Hi!"' >> test.p6; perl test.p6
19:21 merlyn that clkao line is giving me hundreds of the same errors
19:22 Debolaz audreyt: Any luck with the local installation issue?
19:22 merlyn But it did finally say "foo"!
19:22 MenTaLguY left perl6
19:22 audreyt merlyn: you have some env that turns -w on all the time?
19:22 audreyt Debolaz: no, sorry, I havn't looked into prefix.
19:22 merlyn No I don't
19:23 merlyn I'm using 5.8.8 bleed though
19:23 clkao_ maybe the pcr on cpan is funny
19:23 audreyt Debolaz: can you backlog into the summary in irc and collect it and post it to perl6-compiler?
19:24 audreyt Debolaz: or add it to the TODO file
19:25 merlyn Yeah, I can't think of anything unusual I'm doing
19:25 merlyn I'm compiling bleed about every third or fourth day
19:25 fglock you should have a hello_world.pl in the installation dir - can you run it? perl hello_world.pl
19:25 merlyn in PCR?
19:25 fglock PC-P6
19:26 merlyn uh - be clearer
19:26 fglock or perl -Ilib hello_world.pl
19:26 merlyn I don't have hello_world.pl in my cpan build area
19:26 fglock cd Pugs-Compiler-Perl6; perl -Ilib hello_world.pl
19:26 merlyn ahh v6-pugs
19:26 fglock yup
19:26 merlyn yeah, that's giving me hundreds of errorrs again
19:27 fglock does it generate a hello_world.plc file?
19:27 merlyn yes, it didi
19:27 merlyn and it says "hello, world" at the end
19:27 audreyt s/errors/warnings/ :)
19:27 merlyn you just gotta get rid of those warnings. :)
19:28 merlyn who could be turning on warnings globally?
19:28 merlyn now that I think of it, that *does* seem odd.
19:28 merlyn nothing is supposed to have that power except -w
19:28 Debolaz audreyt: I don't subscribe to email lists and usenet posts are filtered afaik.
19:28 audreyt merlyn: you alias perl to -w?
19:28 merlyn No I don't
19:29 audreyt Debolaz: commit to TODO, then? or send me a hiveminder ticket
19:29 merlyn in fact, I generally hate -w
19:29 Debolaz audreyt: Will see if it can be done. :)
19:29 audreyt ok :)
19:29 Debolaz But do I have commit access?
19:29 merlyn this is a perl I built two days ago
19:29 audreyt merlyn: upgrade Text::Blanced?
19:30 merlyn from this rsync://ftp.linux.activestate.com/perl-5.8.x/
19:30 merlyn I have the latest of that
19:30 merlyn the latest of Text::Balanced too
19:30 audreyt merlyn: ok, try svn up pugs
19:30 svnbot6 r11075 | audreyt++ | * stopgap measure to allow Text::Balanced to return undef stuff
19:31 audreyt and install the perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/ there
19:31 audreyt Debolaz: what's your email addr?
19:32 merlyn that's in svn.perl.org/perl6 right?
19:32 merlyn I'm not seeing anything new
19:32 audreyt merlyn: the mirror takes some time; best to switch svn checkout
19:32 audreyt to
19:32 audreyt http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
19:32 lambdabot Title: "Revision 11075: /"
19:32 merlyn ahh - I'm not tracking that
19:33 merlyn lemme see if I can switch it
19:33 audreyt please recheckout
19:33 merlyn wait - is /pugs there the same as /perl6 ?
19:33 merlyn or just some part of it?
19:33 audreyt the perl6/pugs/ part of it
19:34 merlyn Ugh - I can't switch easily then
19:34 audreyt just recheckout...
19:35 merlyn svn co http:// ... ?
19:35 merlyn ok that's working
19:36 merlyn But that now explains why i waswn't seeing the updates to docs as quick as they were showing up here. :)
19:36 audreyt Debolaz: did you give me your email addr?
19:37 merlyn pulling now
19:38 merlyn does this archive contain anything that isn't in svn.perl.org/perl6 ?
19:38 audreyt Debolaz: note if you /msg me without identifying to nickserv I can't see the msg :)
19:39 merlyn does this archive contain anything that isn't in svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs ? [i mean]
19:39 audreyt merlyn: no, they should be identical
19:39 merlyn but just delayed
19:39 merlyn ok
19:39 * merlyn watches many thousands of filenames whip by
19:39 * merlyn is happy he has his EVDO card
19:40 merlyn the airline lounge where I'm located has a special drink during 4-7pm only
19:40 merlyn I saw the sign and said "too bad it's not 4pm"
19:40 merlyn he said "it's 4pm *somewhere*" :)
19:41 theorbtwo (Jimmy Buffet)++
19:41 merlyn checked out
19:42 merlyn no META.yml :)
19:42 merlyn "make all test install"
19:42 merlyn no warnings!
19:42 audreyt good then.
19:42 merlyn farkin' a you did it
19:42 merlyn what's different?
19:42 audreyt no warnings uninitialized.
19:42 * audreyt shrugs
19:42 merlyn heh
19:43 theorbtwo Did you put it in a small scope?
19:43 merlyn perhaps some warnings are on by default now
19:43 merlyn perhaps p5p needs to know this is a Bad Thing
19:43 audreyt theorbtwo: in that file all subs use Text::Balanced and trigger warnings
19:43 audreyt and there are already no warnings once on top
19:43 theorbtwo Oh.  Nevermind, then.
19:43 merlyn maybe they broke the warnings mechanism
19:44 nothingmuch joined perl6
19:44 fglock audreyt: btw, you are PCR comaintainer
19:44 audreyt cool
19:44 audreyt danke
19:44 theorbtwo merlyn: IIRC, there was a patch recently to fix certian cases where an uninit warning wasn't thrown due to a bug.
19:45 fglock merlyn: perldoc v6 should work now
19:45 audreyt theorbtwo: that sounds definitely like it.
19:45 merlyn I still don't understand how that commandline there could work
19:45 merlyn perl -Ilib lib/v6.pm
19:46 merlyn unless you were in the RIGHT directory
19:46 merlyn is that presumed?
19:46 audreyt yeah.
19:46 merlyn in which case it should say so
19:46 merlyn otherwise, it's a broken synopsis
19:46 fglock sure - it needs to be replaced by a normal script
19:46 merlyn I know there's no lib/v6.pm from my home directory
19:46 merlyn so that really isn't going to work at all
19:46 clkao `perldoc -l v6.pm`
19:46 clkao ;)
19:48 audreyt there needs to be a way to make
19:48 audreyt perl -Mv6-pugs -e ...
19:48 audreyt work
19:48 audreyt but I can't think of a way yet.
19:49 audreyt (problem is that @ARGV info isn't available to -M)
19:49 audreyt or we giveup and install bin/perl6 ;)
19:49 audreyt (would be bad, so j/k)
19:50 fglock how about bin/lrep
19:51 Debolaz audreyt: Sorry, switched window. :)
19:52 Debolaz audreyt: My email address is [email@hidden.address] (Which also is the explanation for why I don't sign up for mailing lists unless most posts are interesting)
19:52 audreyt fglock: that would work, but I somehow still want to keep v6
19:53 audreyt but lrep is the best name we've got so far.
19:53 fglock sure
19:53 clkao fglock: if you are killing the yapp grammar - i have changes to the signature strucutre ,and splat => is_slurpy
19:53 fglock I mean, sure == v6
19:53 clkao other than that it's all in emitter
19:54 fglock clkao_: ok - I'll check it before merging - it is taking more time than expected
19:56 shachaf joined perl6
19:57 audreyt Debolaz: both hiveminder and openfoundry intivations are sent
19:58 clkao_ audreyt: is there a pugs group on hiveminder?
19:58 audreyt clkao_: yes and you are in it
19:59 audreyt or at least invited to it
19:59 audreyt Debolaz: you can eg add the context information needed to get the --prefix done form irc to "up for grabs" in http://hiveminder.com/groups/38/unowned_tasks
19:59 lambdabot Title: "Hiveminder - Get busy!"
20:01 TreyHarris i never got a hiveminder invite...
20:01 TreyHarris i got an openfoundry one.
20:02 audreyt sent
20:04 TreyHarris hm.  i guess i gotta contact my email admin and get him to check the spam quarantine.
20:05 ingy hola
20:11 fglock ingy: hola que tal
20:31 Debolaz Where are the channel logs at?
20:31 audreyt miyagawa: http://balloon.hobix.com/
20:31 lambdabot Title: "Balloon. (Scripty postcards.)"
20:31 audreyt Debolaz: irc.pugscode.org
20:41 DaGo joined perl6
21:09 lumi How does one join this hiveminder?
21:10 audreyt very carefully
21:10 lumi Oh my
21:10 audreyt trying to do a batch invite
21:14 elmex joined perl6
21:19 audreyt lumi: invitation sent
21:22 gaal_ joined perl6
21:29 lumi Thank you
21:53 DaGo joined perl6
21:59 audreyt np :)
22:02 cognominal joined perl6
22:11 Debolaz joined perl6
22:19 kanru2 joined perl6
22:40 ramzi joined perl6
22:51 MenTaLguY joined perl6
22:56 fglock joined perl6
23:00 fglock clkao: finished rewriting the grammar - it's very slow to load, will need to add precompilation soon
23:13 audreyt TimToady: ::?CLASS -- is it still needed?
23:13 audreyt isn't it just the same as $?CLASS?
23:13 svnbot6 r11076 | fglock++ | px/fglock - v6.pm statement grammar rewritten from Yapp to Rule
23:13 audreyt gaal also noticed there's no ::?GRAMMAR though there is $?GRAMMAR.
23:13 audreyt fglock++ fglock++
23:14 audreyt TimToady: also what does @?LABEL mean?
23:17 Debolaz2 joined perl6
23:26 hubertb joined perl6
23:28 clkao fglock!
23:28 svnbot6 r11077 | gaal++ | * p6ast - reasonably close enough to start hacking?
23:28 clkao i might look into doing precompiling
23:29 fglock clkao: I committed to px - I'm going through the tests now
23:29 audreyt gaal++
23:29 audreyt yay
23:29 clkao_ fglock: OOOH you are not branching with svk?
23:30 fglock clkao_: I could not get installed here
23:30 fglock one sec - I'll see what's the error
23:31 clkao_ fglock: and you are not using a svn cp either... this will make merging a bit painful
23:32 fglock I don't have svn - I use tortoise-svn
23:32 clkao_ (!)
23:32 nothingmuch fglock: btw, i'm all yours
23:32 fglock windows is hard to use...
23:32 nothingmuch windows--
23:32 nothingmuch maybe you can pull it off with cygwin?
23:33 nothingmuch oh wait, instead of checking for you if svk supports windows
23:33 nothingmuch i'll let clkao
23:33 nothingmuch okay
23:33 nothingmuch he's too slow
23:33 nothingmuch http://svk.elixus.org/?SVKWin32
23:33 lambdabot Title: "SVKWin32 - Kwiki"
23:33 clkao there's windows binary
23:34 clkao i will try to manually add a merge ticket for you, before we all lost track
23:35 fglock I've got a slow computer, with windows, and internet over phone - if it works here, it will work anywhere
23:35 clkao_ fglock: do you know which revision you based on
23:36 clkao_ before my changes - r11062?  or after any of them?
23:36 nothingmuch fglock: if you have dialup you *REALLY* want svk
23:36 pasteling "fglock" at 200.102.126.175 pasted "SVK install error" (32 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18168
23:37 fglock clkao_: checking
23:37 clkao_ fglock: just use the binary
23:38 fglock clkao_: downloading
23:39 clkao_ fglock: i think you are based the last change you had.
23:40 clkao_ fglock: are the t-old things dead?
23:40 nothingmuch fglock: ping me
23:41 fglock ping
23:42 fglock clkao_: I just removed the things I haven't changed
23:42 fglock sorry for the mess
23:44 fglock nothingmuch: pinging you
23:44 nothingmuch fglock: okay
23:44 nothingmuch so ping me again in ~2 minutes because I need to pee
23:44 nothingmuch and then we'll talk about Perl::Generate and see how I can make it not suck for you
23:44 fglock ok
23:44 svnbot6 r11078 | clkao++ | Stick a svk:merge ticket so we can track fglock's branch for merging.
23:45 fglock download will take about 1h
23:45 mdiep_ joined perl6
23:46 clkao orz
23:46 audreyt oy, initial sync will take forever
23:47 nothingmuch fglock: you may ping me now
23:47 clkao_ fglock: don't worry, cleaned up a bit for you
23:48 clkao_ fglock: what's the parsing state? i see 04-if not parsed
23:48 svnbot6 r11079 | clkao++ | Correct Makefile.PL to use module::install from the right place so we
23:48 svnbot6 r11079 | clkao++ | can actually run the tests.
23:50 fglock clkao_: tests are running real slow - I'm working on t\03 now
23:51 clkao fglock: oh ok. but it looks good. byebye yapp
23:53 buubot joined perl6
23:56 fglock nothingmuch: ping!
23:57 nothingmuch pong
23:58 fglock re Perl::Generate - it would be nice if it could follow the v6.pm structure, but it is more important to be compatible with the other backends too
23:58 meppl gute nacht
23:59 nothingmuch i don't know 100% what is the v6.pm structure is right now
23:59 nothingmuch i need to go over this with you
23:59 fglock it generates a statement list, which has

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