Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-07-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:09 nothingmuch bye guys
00:09 nothingmuch we're leaving
00:10 drbean_ joined perl6
00:17 clkao due to software problem we are stucked
00:17 audreyt mm
00:17 obra clkao: what software?
00:19 gaal bye softwarestuck mountainmoose!
00:22 Bit-Man joined perl6
00:24 clkao printer driver
00:26 obra oh.
00:26 obra come by the office. I'll print whatever you want.
00:26 obra you can grab and go
00:29 clkao it's 50% printed
00:29 svnbot6 r11226 | audreyt++ | * try to fix building with GHC 6.4.1
00:29 obra ok
00:29 obra clkao: how can we get svn mailer.py to ignore property-only commits?
00:31 kolibrie audreyt: what is the magic setting to have minibufexpl.vim show the filenames at the bottom?
00:34 clkao obra: not sure, might worth ask on #svn
00:34 * clkao &
00:35 audreyt kolibrie: I no longer remember
00:36 obra clkao: no worries. enjoy hiking
00:38 pasteling "TimToady" at 64.0.7.8 pasted "build failure" (112 lines, 8.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18251
00:38 TimToady I think this is probably the same problem other people have been having with ghc...
00:42 TimToady this is with a realclean r11226
00:42 TimToady I particularly wonder about the lines:
00:42 TimToady Unregistering pugs-HsSyck-0.1...
00:42 TimToady ghc-pkg: /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.4.1/package.conf: you don't have permission to modify this file
00:43 gaal TimToady: I cheated and chmod a+w /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.4.1/package.conf but I don't think that's Right
00:43 kolibrie audreyt: very sad, can I have your whole .vimrc then?
00:43 gaal she's in a braineat^H^H^Hstorming session
00:44 kolibrie gaal: you can extricate it from her when she's done
00:45 gaal she'll backlog I'm sure :)
00:45 kolibrie no doubt
00:49 TimToady well, still the same result as my pbot log...no Data.Yaml.Syck
00:51 audreyt fixing that
01:01 xdg joined perl6
01:20 TimToady btw, use v6-() also fails the -w test...
01:22 audreyt yeah.
01:22 audreyt v6-perl then?
01:23 mdiep joined perl6
01:24 obra Don't pure perl implementations usually use pp?
01:25 * obra interjects useless commentary
01:25 marksto1 obra: I think so. DBI uses that convention.
01:25 marksto1 is now known as markstos_
01:25 ajs v6-perl or v6-perl5 or v6-pp. I think they all look purty
01:26 markstos_ v6-pp++ "v6-perl" looks redundent and v6-perl6 is a bit confusing, although accurate.
01:26 obra audreyt: have you already explored making v6 a "Best" like shim?
01:26 TimToady according to p6 that field is the "authority".
01:27 obra use v6 pugs
01:29 audreyt obra: yes.
01:29 obra   ok
01:32 kolibrie gaal: audreyt: 'let g:miniBufExplSplitBelow=1' puts the MiniBufExplorer at the bottom, but there are still extra (useless) lines audreyt's setup did not have
01:32 svnbot6 r11227 | audreyt++ | * remove --global for real
01:33 kolibrie sleep &
01:33 svnbot6 r11228 | audreyt++ | * ...ditto
01:35 cmarcelo joined perl6
01:35 audreyt TimToady: the build should now work...
01:35 audreyt (I think)
01:36 audreyt still waiting for "perl Makefile.PL" to finish at szbalint's machinre
01:41 cmarcelo dear perl hackers: i'm having trouble with line 60 of util/build_pugs.pl, it's a call to system(), which call ../../Setup passing a few arguments, but seems one of the arguments is being executed somehow ("/bin/sh: --with-hc-pkg: command not found") during the build. it's like system is considering only some arguments and taking the rest as another command. any idea? [ghc 6.5 and perl v5.8.8]
01:42 audreyt cmarcelo: r11288?
01:43 audreyt have you rerun Makefile.PL?
01:46 cmarcelo audreyt: 11226.. i'm up'ing to 228.. [yes, "re-ran" =P]
01:49 cmarcelo same error.. and after make clean, still the same and a new one, after dep building: $ Setup: executing external program failed: "util/ghc-pkg-wrapper" --global list >tmp11183
01:50 audreyt ok
01:50 svnbot6 r11229 | audreyt++ | * even more attempt at taming Cabal from rafl++'s change.
01:50 audreyt try again?
01:51 cmarcelo just a sec
01:51 audreyt 11230
01:53 svnbot6 r11230 | audreyt++ | * err, debug
01:53 xdg joined perl6
01:54 TreyHarris hmm.  given the choice between "my %x = map { {$_ => 1} }, 'a'..'c'" and "my %x = map { $_, 1 }, 'a'..'c'", I don't think I like either of 'em (though I'm willing to believe that's just my perl5 brain irrationally fighting change).  is there a better idiom?
01:54 audreyt my $x = any('a'..'c')
01:56 TreyHarris audreyt: :-)  of course, but I was actually trying to construct a hash in order to play with hash-in-regex semantics
01:57 TreyHarris so actually that would have been { $_, "" }
01:59 audreyt well, in p5 we have the idiom
01:59 audreyt my %x; %x{'a'..'c'} = ();
01:59 audreyt and use .exists
01:59 TreyHarris ahh.  yes.
02:00 TreyHarris so undef is treated identically to "" inside a regex?
02:00 TreyHarris no warning either?
02:01 audreyt not currently
02:01 audreyt that may change
02:02 TreyHarris hm
02:02 TreyHarris ?eval my %x{'a'..'c'} = ();
02:02 evalbot_11168 [undef, undef, undef]
02:02 TreyHarris hah! recent change.  my pugs says [1, 1, 1] :-)
02:02 audreyt :)
02:02 audreyt in any case
02:02 audreyt that is a good demo of how p6's generalization helps surface syntax
02:03 audreyt you can say "my @x[1,2,3] = ()"
02:03 audreyt while in p5 you have to say "my @x; @x[1,2,3]= ()"
02:04 TreyHarris interesting:
02:04 TreyHarris ?eval my %z{'a'..'c'} = (17,17,17); %z<a b c> = ();
02:04 evalbot_11168 [17, 17, 17]
02:04 TreyHarris is that right?
02:08 audreyt no, it's wrong :)
02:08 audreyt write a test?
02:09 TreyHarris :(  unfortunately, i have no machine I own fast enough to rebuild pugs in anything resembling useful time.  it takes about 29 hours on my poor 256MB G4.
02:10 audreyt er no
02:10 audreyt just write a test :)
02:10 gaal what's the difference between Bit and Bool? Both are mentioned in S06
02:10 audreyt Bool has helpers True and False
02:10 audreyt ...and that's it
02:10 audreyt otherwise they are the same thing
02:11 audreyt I wonder if "bit" is just boxed to "Bool"
02:11 TreyHarris audreyt: ok, but if the test works on the latest binary build and breaks now, i won't be held responsible ;-)
02:11 audreyt sure.
02:11 gaal audreyt: so storagewise they're both haskell bools in Pugs yes?
02:11 audreyt also, incremental builds take less time
02:11 audreyt gaal: yes.
02:11 audreyt though you can invent
02:11 audreyt data Bit = On | Off
02:11 audreyt if you feel masochistic
02:12 gaal my Bit $hurts
02:12 audreyt cute
02:13 gaal Thy fingers make early flowers / of all things. / thy hair mostly the hours love:
02:13 svnbot6 r11231 | fglock++ | v6 - regex parser: 'multi', signature, attributes
02:13 gaal a smoothness which / sings,saying / (though love be a day) / do not fear,we will go amaying.
02:14 scook0 joined perl6
02:20 cmarcelo joined perl6
02:59 ilogger2 joined perl6
03:01 vsoni audreyt: how are u
03:04 TimToady hmm....
03:04 TimToady dist/build/libHSPugs-6.2.12.a(Parrot.o): In function `sMgK_slow':
03:04 TimToady ghc26105.hc:(.text+0x3cd7): undefined reference to `Parrot_find_global'
03:05 audreyt parrot no longer havea find_global?
03:05 audreyt oy.
03:06 TimToady looks like it only has hungarian find_globals from the nm listing...
03:06 audreyt find_global_p ?
03:06 TimToady dunno what the bare one changed to.
03:08 xinming joined perl6
03:08 gaal how come the .h still has it?
03:08 gaal just an oversight?
03:08 audreyt no
03:09 audreyt #parrot refactored that into global.h
03:10 audreyt thinking about how to go about that
03:10 audreyt trying to just include parrot.h
03:10 audreyt and see if it works
03:27 kanru joined perl6
03:39 sanug joined perl6
03:47 TreyHarris hrm: "svn: Failed to add directory 'pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule': object of the same name already exists"
03:47 * TreyHarris does not know svn
03:48 TimToady if you don't care about what's currently in the directory, just blow it away and "svn up" again.
03:48 TimToady otherwise rename it.
03:49 TreyHarris TimToady: danke
03:50 TreyHarris so what's this svk i heard mutterings about at yapc?  is it a totally new vcs, or is it a different frontend for SVN?
03:51 TimToady the latter
03:51 TimToady taps in at the C api layer, if I recall.
03:52 TreyHarris ah-hah, looks like my cron job to update the pugs src was always croaking on that error, which is why i was so often confused when my source didn't match what people were talking about here.  *sigh*
03:52 TimToady on this channel it seems to inspire both tremendous loyalty and intense swearing, often from the same people.
03:53 TreyHarris :-)
03:56 audreyt TreyHarris: fixed
03:56 ingy hi audreyt
03:57 TreyHarris audreyt: already?
03:57 TreyHarris ?eval my %z{'a'..'c'} = (17,17,17); %z<a b c> = ();
03:57 audreyt TimToady: try now?
03:57 evalbot_11168 [17, 17, 17]
03:57 audreyt TreyHarris: the recompile takes time even on feather :)
03:57 svnbot6 r11233 | audreyt++ | * TreyHarris++ reported that slice assignment is broken:
03:57 svnbot6 r11233 | audreyt++ |     @a[1,2,3] = 1,2,3;
03:57 svnbot6 r11233 | audreyt++ |     @a[1,2,3] = 4;
03:57 svnbot6 r11233 | audreyt++ |   used to leave the values of @a[2] and @a[3] intact.
03:57 svnbot6 r11234 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Embed.Parrot: Include <parrot.h> to chase the recent
03:57 audreyt ingy: hi!
03:57 svnbot6 r11234 | audreyt++ |   change on find_globals being refactored into global.h
03:57 audreyt TimToady: it worksfor me with 11234 and trunk parrot
03:57 TimToady audreyt: actually, I think v6-pugs is fine, if you take pugs as a naming authority.
03:58 TimToady making...
03:59 lollan joined perl6
04:00 ingy use v6-|*|_|6$;
04:01 audreyt TimToady: yeah.
04:01 |n6yl33t use v6-|*|_|6$;
04:02 TreyHarris ingy: and a syntax error under perl5 is even better than an errant warning? :-)
04:02 ingy we'll special case it
04:04 gaal use v6-lol;
04:04 lollan joined perl6
04:05 TimToady use v6-1e1;
04:06 TreyHarris how can i look at what's just changed before i update?  like cvs?  "svn diff -r HEAD pugs"?
04:07 TimToady I often use svn diff -r PREV on things
04:07 PerlJam TreyHarris: svn st
04:07 TimToady svn status is good too.
04:07 PerlJam TreyHarris: svn st -u
04:09 TimToady hmm, still didn't find Parrot_find_global...
04:10 TimToady prolly shoulda done a realclean first...
04:10 TimToady well, gotta commute a bit before I try that... &
04:11 ingy use v0b0110;
04:17 TreyHarris hrm.  shouldn't i be able to just run a .t file directly with pugs?  it's failing on the first :todo and never tries any of the tests beyond
04:17 ivanfrey audreyt: Well I'm back and I find myself at this point:env PERL_HARNESS=./pugs prove t/01-sanity/*.t
04:17 ivanfrey t/01-sanity/01-tap.................dyld: /usr/bin/pugs can't open library: /System/Library/Perl/lib/5.8/libperl.dylib  (No such file or directory, errno = 2)
04:17 ivanfrey t/01-sanity/01-tap.................dubious
04:17 ivanfrey        Test returned status 0 (wstat 5, 0x5) and so on and so forth.
04:21 guaumiau joined perl6
04:22 audreyt ivanfrey: is libperl.dylib somewhere in /system/LLibrary?
04:22 audreyt find /System/Library/Perl | grep libperl
04:23 stevan joined perl6
04:23 ivanfrey This one: /System/Library/Perl/5.8.1/darwin-thread-multi-2level/CORE/libperl.dylib
04:24 audreyt ok. can you perhaps do a symlink?
04:24 audreyt (I know it's wrong, but give it a try)
04:27 TreyHarris audreyt: where do i get a prove that works with perl6?
04:28 audreyt it's the same prove
04:28 audreyt just a different PERL_HARNESS
04:29 TreyHarris oh.  I just tried running "PERL_HARNESS=/usr/local/bin/pugs prove array.t" and got lots of errors that certainly looked like perl5 was trying to execute perl6 code
04:29 audreyt well, do you actually have /usr/local/bin/pugs?
04:29 audreyt or is /usr/bin/pugs ?
04:30 TreyHarris either way, same error.  i have both, /usr/bin/pugs symlinks to /usr/local/bin/pugs
04:30 TreyHarris i'm using the binary pkg you pointed me at
04:30 TreyHarris under osx 10.4
04:31 ivanfrey audreyt: can't open /usr/lib/libncurses.5.4.dylib
04:32 audreyt ivanfrey: do you have a ncurses /usr/lib/
04:33 stephanepayrard_ joined perl6
04:33 audreyt /usr/lib/*ncurses*
04:35 TimToady use v6-alpha;
04:35 TreyHarris I have an ancient version of Test::Harness, I'll try upgrading that
04:35 ivanfrey audreyt: I have a libncurses.5.dylib and a libncurses.dylib
04:36 audreyt ivanfrey: more symlink?
04:36 vsoni audreyt: hi
04:36 audreyt vsoni: hi!
04:36 vsoni audreyt: did you get my mail
04:37 ivanfrey audreyt: should I symlink libncurses.5.dylib or the other one?
04:38 TimToady do they have the same size?
04:38 audreyt ivanfrey: should be the same; but try .5.
04:38 audreyt yes.
04:39 audreyt vsoni: src/Pugs/Embed/Parrot.hsc
04:39 audreyt in the pugs tree
04:39 audreyt and also the horrible workaround for imcc
04:39 audreyt brokenness
04:39 audreyt is in src/pge/parrotembed.c
04:39 audreyt I hope your work can make src/pge/parrotembed.c go away :)
04:39 vsoni thanks.......would you like to have better interface to imcc
04:40 vsoni audreyt: We can talk about it somet time
04:40 audreyt I'm using imcc_init and imcc_compile_pir
04:40 audreyt that's the only ones I use actually
04:40 audreyt well also Parrot_compreg
04:40 audreyt but that's separate
04:40 vsoni ok
04:41 vsoni Hey about the :immediate discussion
04:41 audreyt well also leo also made me do
04:41 audreyt PackFile_new
04:41 audreyt PackFile_Segment_new_seg
04:41 audreyt PF_create_default_segs
04:41 audreyt etc etc
04:41 audreyt as the boilerplace init sequence
04:41 audreyt I never understood that
04:41 audreyt so I'd welcome them be folded away somehow
04:41 audreyt into one single _inic perhaps
04:41 audreyt _init
04:42 vsoni how about IMCC_push_parser_state
04:42 audreyt the :immediate -- I don't see why an assembly language should have BEGIN block
04:42 vsoni do you use that
04:42 audreyt allison ruled that it's a good thing; I'm still wondering if she'll explain why
04:42 audreyt but at this moment I don't care anymore :) I don't use it, so I pretend it's not there.
04:42 ivanfrey audreyt: t/01-sanity/01-tap.................dyld: /usr/bin/pugs version mismatch for library: /usr/lib/libncurses.5.4.dylib (compatibility version of user: 5.4.0 greater than library's version: 5.0.0)
04:42 vsoni audreyt: How about immediate was an Interface in IMCC.... that calling programs could implement
04:43 audreyt vsoni: well, and IMCC will transfer the partially compiled .pbc to the embedder?
04:43 audreyt vsoni: or the textual .pir?
04:43 audreyt basically I can't see a use case
04:44 audreyt ivanfrey: hm.
04:44 audreyt get http://perlcabal.org/~audreyt/tmp/libncurses.5.4.dylib ?
04:44 audreyt (hopefully it's Universal)
04:44 vsoni audreyt: It will depend on the how the interface is defined....when IMCC: encounters :immediate....The interface that the calling program defined gets called.....So in that interface you could create a new IMCC instance
04:44 TimToady hmm, still getting:
04:44 TimToady dist/build/libHSPugs-6.2.12.a(Parrot.o): In function `sMgK_slow':
04:44 TimToady ghc1790.hc:(.text+0x3cd7): undefined reference to `Parrot_find_global'
04:44 TimToady that's after realclean
04:44 sanug left perl6
04:45 audreyt TimToady: hrm.
04:45 audreyt leo: do you know what's happening here? :)
04:46 vsoni Audreyt: did you get the latest Parrot code....I think Chip made some changes today
04:46 audreyt TimToady: I'm seeing
04:46 audreyt 00165fe0 T _Parrot_find_global
04:46 audreyt from nm
04:46 audreyt oh wait, I'm 2 revs behind.
04:47 audreyt aha. chip removed the API.
04:47 audreyt very well.
04:47 phpError joined perl6
04:47 vsoni I am not sure if he removed the API
04:48 audreyt he did.
04:48 vsoni ok
04:48 audreyt and introduced several variants
04:48 vsoni Break in Binary Compatibility :)
04:48 audreyt it's now Parrot_find_global_s
04:48 audreyt same thing
04:48 audreyt just different name!
04:48 vsoni ok
04:49 audreyt oy. what's the #ifdef.
04:49 ivanfrey audreyt: oh, Camino tried to open libncurses.5.4.dylib in MS Excel.
04:49 audreyt ivanfrey: wow.
04:52 audreyt oh well. I'll just test PARROT_VERSION > 0.4.5.
04:53 ivanfrey audreyt: I've got a problem. Why are the errors referring to /usr/bin/pugs when I wanted to run ./pugs in the Perl6-Pugs-6..2.12 directory.
04:53 TimToady it has PARROT_REVISION.
04:53 TimToady in config.h
04:54 audreyt yeah, but that will break with 0.4.5-devel up until an hour ago
04:54 audreyt but that's fine.
04:55 TimToady it was r13170 that changed it, i think.
04:55 audreyt TimToady: retest?
04:55 TimToady commit?
04:55 audreyt already!
04:57 svnbot6 r11235 | audreyt++ | * chase post-0.4.5 Parrot API change: Parrot_find_global
04:57 svnbot6 r11235 | audreyt++ |   now becomes Parrot_find_globals
04:57 ivanfrey audreyt: maybe I should delete the parrot and pugs builds I installed earlier from Udobe's site.
04:58 audreyt ivanfrey: that is likely
04:58 audreyt maybe rm /usr/bin/pugs first?
05:00 mauke_ joined perl6
05:00 TimToady looks good.
05:01 TimToady couldn't make miniperl6, but that's 'cuz I don't have Padwalker, apparently.
05:02 ivanfrey audreyt: I'm going to use the script in /usr/local/bin.
05:02 audreyt ivanfrey: k.
05:03 ivanfrey env PERL_HARNESS=./pugs prove t/01-sanity/*.t
05:03 ivanfrey t/01-sanity/01-tap.................Can't exec /usr/bin/pugs at t/01-sanity/01-tap.t line 1.
05:03 ivanfrey t/01-sanity/01-tap.................dubious
05:03 ivanfrey        Test returned status 2 (wstat 512, 0x200)
05:04 TimToady audreyt: what do you thing of v6-alpha?
05:04 TimToady *think
05:05 ivanfrey audreyt: How do we run ./pugs in all incantations of pugs in the test scripts? Is there an environment variable for this.
05:05 audreyt TimToady: when 6.0.0 is here we call it -omega?
05:06 ivanfrey audreyt: maybe a symlink will work.
05:06 audreyt (I'm fine with it. still I think v6-perl, esp without #! line, is more descrptive, but -alpha is a neat social hack.)
05:06 TimToady as in that number we can't calculate? :)
05:06 audreyt -aleph
05:07 audreyt well, it's good, as we can semi-freeze the spec some time in the future
05:07 audreyt and call that level -beta
05:07 audreyt it's really confusing version slot with authority slot
05:07 frederico joined perl6
05:07 audreyt but otoh, it means that before release, nobody can really claim authority to 6.0.0
05:07 audreyt which is a neat social hack.
05:07 TimToady that's what I thought...
05:07 TimToady and -perl claims a little too much, I think.
05:08 audreyt with the surface syntax still changing, yeah.
05:08 svnbot6 r11236 | audreyt++ | * findSymRef is made from MonadSTM to Eval, thanks to gaal++
05:08 svnbot6 r11236 | audreyt++ |   for noticing it.
05:08 audreyt ok, -alpha it is :)
05:08 TimToady or able, baker, charlie...  alpha, bravo, etc...
05:08 TreyHarris eek.  now i'm really confused.  I thought maybe some old version of Test::Harness was hanging around somewhere on my filesystem confusing things, so I created an empty test with nothing but a CHECK { warn "version of Test::Harness is $Test::Harness::VERSION." }.  when i try to run prove on it, I get "version of Test::Harness is ."
05:09 TimToady -abel, that is...
05:10 TreyHarris oh, duh, we're in test::harness.  *smacks head*
05:10 TimToady or use the hurricane list for this year...
05:12 audreyt so instead of specifying the variant of implementation, it's specifying the "stage of language"
05:12 audreyt I like that.
05:12 audreyt since the implementation in my mind belongs to #! anyway.
05:12 TimToady since the idea is to cut across implementations
05:12 audreyt eexactly.
05:12 audreyt so if you have a script that has no impl prefence, don't put a #!
05:13 audreyt some point in the future maybe #!env perl6
05:13 audreyt but not now :)
05:13 TimToady we're still trying to encourage convergence at this point. :)
05:14 audreyt oh, the idea is that various implementation will symlink to cc :)
05:14 audreyt er I mean runghc
05:14 audreyt *runhaskell
05:14 ivanfrey audreyt: env PERL_HARNESS=./pugs prove t/01-sanity/*.t
05:14 ivanfrey t/01-sanity/01-tap.................dyld: /usr/bin/pugs can't open library: GMP.framework/Versions/A/GMP  (No such file or directory, errno = 2)
05:14 ivanfrey t/01-sanity/01-tap.................dubious
05:14 ivanfrey        Test returned status 0 (wstat 5, 0x5)
05:14 audreyt ivanfrey: ok, you are at the end of the tunnel!
05:15 mauke_ is now known as mauke
05:15 TreyHarris hmmm.  I just found *my* problem... in my version of prove, it's HARNESS_PERL, not PERL_HARNESS.
05:15 audreyt ivanfrey: http://perlcabal.org/~audreyt/tmp/GMP.framework.tar.gz
05:15 TimToady okay, we're schmokin'.
05:15 audreyt ivanfrey: cd /Library/Frameworks
05:15 audreyt and extract it there.
05:16 TreyHarris ivanfrey: where did you get PERL_HARNESS from?
05:17 audreyt it's HARNESS_PERL and never PERL_HARNESS I think...
05:17 gaal ;2~.
05:17 gaal ;2~.
05:17 gaal ;2~.
05:17 audreyt ;3-!
05:18 TimToady ;5-?
05:18 ivanfrey TreyHarris: I thought it was Test::Harness
05:18 gaal wow, ssh escape codes escape windows
05:19 ivanfrey TreyHarris: I used cpan to install it.
05:19 TimToady it's an OS-in-the-middle attack...
05:20 audreyt TimToady: in P6AST work today, I think that
05:20 TreyHarris ivanfrey: you've been running "PERL_HARNESS=./pugs prove..."
05:20 audreyt use v6-alpha
05:20 audreyt is short for
05:20 audreyt use Perl-6-urn:alpha;
05:20 audreyt makes sense?
05:20 gaal use v6-א_0;
05:20 TimToady urn?
05:20 TreyHarris ivanfrey: it should be HARNESS_PERL.  i was about to type the same line when you mentioned it on here, and so I reversed them, too
05:20 audreyt the spec has it that authority has to be a URI
05:20 audreyt which means it has to have a scheme
05:21 audreyt and the default scheme, for things that cannot be located, is urn:
05:21 audreyt as opposed to everybody else like http:, which are URLs
05:21 TimToady I was kinda hoping to locate perl...
05:23 ivanfrey TreyHarris: Well audreyt advised me to run env PERL_HARNESS=.....   as opposed to make test
05:23 TreyHarris and so I spent the past hour reinstalling Test::Harness because I was typing PERL_HARNESS instead of HARNESS_PERL.  but now I have the spelling right, the tests run just fine, no syntax errors or erroneous testing of TODOs.  :-)
05:23 TimToady it's all very Greek: alphas, and urns...
05:24 ivanfrey TreyHarris: I apologize for the confusion. I'm confused myself.
05:24 TimToady gaal: I'm afraid perl5 doesn't deal with א_0 very well.  We're hoping to fix that in perl6...
05:25 TreyHarris ivanfrey: no problem.  but given this, i think it's pretty clear that you have a problem with your Perl (5) installation, whether or not you have a problem with pugs
05:25 TimToady on the other hand it doesn't seem to have much trouble with -Inf.  go figure...
05:26 TreyHarris ivanfrey: since the line you were running was never actually sucessfully calling pugs
05:26 ivanfrey audreyt | TreyHarris: Well it appears to now.
05:28 audreyt TimToady: I committed S11
05:28 audreyt sanity check?
05:28 ivanfrey But I certainly have made a dog's breakfast of things. It appears that some setup of pugs occurred when /sw/bin/perl was still in my path.
05:30 ivanfrey audreyt | TreyHarris:    t/01-sanity/06-use.................pugs: *** Can't locate lib.pm in @*INC (@*INC contains: /sw/lib/perl6/darwin-thread-multi-2level /sw/lib/perl6 /sw/lib/perl6/site_perl/darwin-thread-multi-2level /sw/lib/perl6/site_perl /sw/lib/perl6/auto/pugs/perl6/lib /sw/lib/perl6/site_perl/auto/pugs/perl6/lib .).
05:30 ivanfrey    at t/01-sanity/06-use.t line 1, column 1
05:30 ivanfrey t/01-sanity/06-use.................dubious
05:30 ivanfrey        Test returned status 1 (wstat 256, 0x100)
05:31 TimToady sane.
05:34 ivanfrey audreyt: I guess I better start over?
05:34 audreyt cool.
05:34 audreyt try
05:34 * geoffb rezzes in for a moment
05:34 audreyt env HARNESS_PERL=./pugs -Iblib6/lib t/01-sanity
05:35 audreyt you didn't install, so the blib is needed (for hopfully obvious reasons)
05:35 geoffb just wanted to congratulate y'all on the v6.pm getting through the sanity suite.
05:35 geoffb Damn fine progress, that is!
05:35 audreyt geoffb: thanks :) yay :)
05:35 audreyt stevan just release new Moose
05:35 audreyt with Module and Package encodings
05:35 audreyt so it also agrees with the 6.28.0 AST's MOP encodings!
05:36 audreyt (or rather, "so we can import en mass from Moose without reservations")
05:36 audreyt gaal will commit the new AST sketch in a bit.
05:36 geoffb mmmm ... Perlish goodness
05:36 audreyt then the task is to switch both the v6.pm runtiem and Haskell runtime to use it
05:36 audreyt one both are using it, then we call it 6.28.0.
05:37 audreyt it's like, the plan, exactly one year ago, finally starts to come together :)
05:37 geoffb wonderful, I was wondering when that was going to happen
05:37 geoffb heh
05:37 TreyHarris TimToady, audreyt: i hope you're future-proofing perl 6 by allowing some value of "use v7...." that will cause Perl 6 to load v7.pm ;-)
05:37 audreyt lol
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05:38 gaal committed
05:38 audreyt gaal++ gaal++ gaal++ gaal++
05:39 audreyt TimToady: it's actually a good point
05:39 audreyt when perl6 sees use v6
05:39 audreyt use v7
05:39 audreyt instead of curling up and die
05:39 audreyt it should first try to load v7.pm :)
05:39 TimToady sure, why not?
05:39 audreyt fix S11? :)
05:40 * audreyt needs to shower+sleep
05:40 audreyt alternately...
05:40 TimToady though arguably it should really just load Perl-v7.pm
05:40 audreyt yes.
05:40 audreyt Perl.pm with multiversioning selector
05:40 ivanfrey audreyt:  env: -Iblib6/lib: No such file or directory
05:41 TimToady or maybe we just install a hook that runs if the first word in a Perl file is completely unrecognized.
05:41 audreyt ivanfrey: sorry
05:41 geoffb seen rafl
05:41 jabbot geoffb: rafl was seen 8 hours 24 minutes 29 seconds ago
05:41 audreyt env HARNESS_PERL=./pugs prove -Iblib6/lib t/01-sanity/*.t
05:42 audreyt TimToady: yeah. since as we know "there will be no perl 7" etc :)
05:42 gaal whereof one cannot complie thereof one must not run
05:42 audreyt or rather "perl 7 will be a perl 6 module"
05:42 svnbot6 r11237 | gaal++ | * WIP towards an overhaul of Pugs.AST.Internals.
05:42 svnbot6 r11237 | gaal++ |   It includes a new and more detailed AST which captures much more
05:42 svnbot6 r11237 | gaal++ |   Perl 6 semantics; captures; MOP based on Stevan++'s Moose.pm; and
05:42 svnbot6 r11237 | gaal++ |   cleans up some accrued cruft.
05:42 audreyt but hey, perl 6 is now just a perl 5 module.
05:42 audreyt gaal++
05:42 audreyt lol
05:43 gaal one must, so to speak, shed away the antlers after one has paraded around yapc with them # XXX WRONG
05:43 geoffb Anyone know if rafl (or someone else) is still maintaining a Debian package for pugs?
05:44 ivanfrey audreyt: Take a look at this:  All tests successful, 2 subtests skipped.
05:44 ivanfrey Files=19, Tests=63, 50 wallclock secs (34.37 cusr +  1.69 csys = 36.06 CPU)
05:44 dduncan so, with headings like "use v6-alpha;" ... does this mean that we can take identical Perl 6 scripts and run them under multiple runtimes, like saying "pugs <script>" or "perl <script>" ... just like running normal Perl 5 scripts?
05:44 dduncan so only the program name changes on the command line, and everything else is the same?
05:44 ivanfrey audreyt: Ain't that sweet?
05:46 TimToady dduncan: that's the point of scrapping the #! line, which can only indicate a single interpreter.  we wanted to run the tests under various interpreters.
05:46 xinming If `use Perl-v7` is true... someone might even do `use Python-2` or `use Basic`  :-P
05:46 ivanfrey audreyt: So I guess it's sudo make install followed by util/package-osx.pl
05:47 audreyt ivanfrey: yeah :)
05:47 dduncan I would just like it if this means I can simply write a perl 6 version of stuff only, and not bother with a separate perl 5 version, assuming I'm willing to live with alpha quality support structures for awhile
05:48 audreyt dduncan: yes, that would mean that.
05:48 dduncan good ...
05:48 TimToady well, it's still closer to halloween than christmas...
05:48 dduncan then with the current rapid pace of development, I may very well skip a pure perl 5 version of Rosetta since a perl 6 version should be all that is needed, even in a plain perl 5 environment ... good news
05:48 audreyt dduncan: yes. that is I think good news to all CPAN authors :)
05:49 audreyt (as maintaining -6 and -5 takes lots of energy.)
05:49 dduncan but you know what else that means ...
05:50 * geoffb can't wait until v6.pm is far enough long to convert all the fun stuff from his code library ....
05:50 dduncan it means that lots of stuff in ext/ can now conceptually just be put on their own on CPAN now
05:50 dduncan rather than fattening up the Pugs bundle
05:50 dduncan unless you like their presence in Pugs for testing Pugs in smokes etc
05:51 audreyt yeah, but multiversioning on CPAN needs work.
05:52 audreyt i.e. it needs to implement the full "use" spec.
05:52 audreyt which robkinyon is working on, I believe
05:52 dduncan good point, actually ... the CPAN indexer will need to know how to parse the Perl 6 modules ... perhaps a reason to wait on that to-CPAN move then
05:52 geoffb Hmmm, if ext/ stuff was moved to CPAN, having a bundle of it for use as test fodder would be key
05:52 audreyt geoffb: yes.
05:53 dduncan I think that separating the test suite soon would be a good idea, maybe
05:53 TimToady speaking of which, finally finished my smoke, 44 errors.
05:53 audreyt but CPAN indexer multiversioning ("The Stas Spec") and client multiversiong (JIB) and coexistence of modules (the hack I did in YAPC::NA) needs to be specced and implemented.
05:53 dduncan if all the t/ stuff is a separate downloadable bundle, it can be used with just v6 or just Perl6-Pugs, etc
05:54 ivanfrey audreyt: I don't have a util/package-osx.pl
05:54 audreyt before that if we just throw random v6 modules on CPAN, the indexer, client, and "require" will all just be very confused.
05:54 TimToady interestingly, for the first time, I passed Perl-Grammar/t/basic.t.
05:54 audreyt ivanfrey: it's in the svn checkout
05:54 audreyt TimToady: evidently the parrot cage cleaners are doing some good.
05:55 audreyt ivanfrey: download it from http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/util/package-osx.pl
05:55 TimToady hope so.
05:55 audreyt ivanfrey: but I havn't run it myself -- unobe is the one you want to consult
05:55 audreyt and I need to shower+sleep anyway :) bbiab &
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05:56 dduncan I don't suppose that the now rapidly updated version.pm is something that can help with the CPAN multiversioning issues ... or only.pm, or if the fix needs to be done separately from those
06:00 ivanfrey pugs works!
06:07 audreyt yay!
06:10 audreyt dduncan: version.pm is one piece of puzzle
06:10 audreyt only.pm too
06:10 audreyt but yeah, need to graffle them into a roadmap of sorts.
06:10 audreyt there's always tomorrow :)
06:10 * audreyt waves &
06:11 * geoffb derezzes as well
06:11 dduncan yes ... but still, this v6 development seems to move some kind of production ready 6.0.0 a lot closer to the present in my eyes ... Perl 5 may be the first production ready runtime
06:11 ivanfrey audreyt: I didn't bother with the package-osx.pl script because my implementation of pugs appears to be installed in /sw and not /usr/local
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06:12 dduncan though not likely the fastest ... Parrot would likely take longer to be production ready, but end up being the fastest one when it is
06:13 dduncan those are my predictions
06:13 audreyt dduncan: that may very well be true.
06:13 audreyt Haskell is the one to prototype semantics and unknown interactions in; once it's well understood we code it as CPAN modules
06:13 audreyt and have another layer of sugar modules like Moose that makes it idiomatic
06:14 audreyt and have finally the v6.pm layer that targets the new idioms
06:14 TimToady and makes sure all the source filters run in the right order.  :)
06:14 audreyt so the lower-layer modules are goign to be production-ready long before v6.pm covers all of perl6
06:14 audreyt there's no source filters anymore :)
06:14 audreyt "precompilers"
06:14 audreyt but yes.
06:15 audreyt dduncan: though it's also possible to retool v5 runtime so that v6-related features runs fast.
06:16 audreyt but that will probably not happen with vanilla 5.8.
06:16 dduncan yes, of course
06:16 audreyt but parrot is needed for platform-independent bytecode, JIT, ease of deployment, etc.
06:16 audreyt ...though there is a fallback plan, namely javascript... :)
06:17 obra ease of deployment?
06:17 audreyt obra: .pbc files
06:17 audreyt and AOP compilation
06:17 audreyt er, AOT
06:17 audreyt (ahead-of-time)
06:17 audreyt though admittedly that's broken with parrot right now
06:17 audreyt but it's part of the spec :)
06:17 dduncan right, so here's a bold prediction of mine ... a subset of Perl 6 that will cover what people need for at least 90% of their work will be at least beta quality by Christmas of THIS year ... over Perl 5 ... and if that isn't bold enough, some people will use it in production by then ... including me
06:18 audreyt dduncan: well, minus the v6.pm sugar layer, I'd say stevan and I and other lambdamoose are already deploying it in production
06:18 audreyt _with_ the sugar layer however... yeah, Christmas _this_ year seems possible.
06:18 dduncan yes, I mean _with_
06:19 audreyt a graffler is coming to this channel...
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06:20 audreyt dduncan: yeah. it would help though
06:20 dduncan that all said ... I am assuming here that, if someone is going to update a legacy Perl 5 module to use a new Perl 6 module under the hood, that doing so would be fairly easy ... like one can invoke Perl 6 in Perl 5 now ... maybe assuming for simplicity that only one author-version of said perl 6 module exists
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06:21 dduncan after all, one intended purpose of Rosetta is to have existing ORMs use it under the hood
06:21 audreyt dduncan: sure, but the calling convention is a bit different
06:21 audreyt to call a Perl 6 method from Perl 5 land
06:21 audreyt currently you have to pass your positionals and nameds separately
06:21 dduncan ideally, the users of the legacy modules won't have to change anything at all
06:21 audreyt but we can always have a idiom layer around Data::Bind
06:21 dduncan so such updated ORMs can be drop-in replacements
06:21 audreyt that, like Params::Validate, tries to intuit what the caller means.
06:22 audreyt stevan was suggesting something like that
06:22 audreyt Class::MOP : Moose = Data::Bind : Pugs::Runtime::Call
06:22 audreyt or something like that
06:22 audreyt Buffalo.pm maybe ;)
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06:23 audreyt oh wait, Buffalo.pm is actually a monger group.
06:23 audreyt hi sanug!
06:23 sanug [01:22am] sanug: audreyt: I will repeat from before...  I looked at the announcement you sent on the v6pm now runs t
06:23 sanug [01:22am] sanug: audreyt: layers are from the user perspective - CPAN - Class::MOP - Data::Bind
06:23 sanug [01:22am] sanug: audreyt: Or CPAN Moose Class::MOP Data::Bind
06:23 sanug [01:23am] sanug: audreyt: So we put a user of module using first Moose - which layers on top of Class::MOP which uses Data:Bind...
06:23 audreyt sanug: so, from user point of view, CPAN.pm is still toplevel
06:23 audreyt it installs some modules
06:23 audreyt some of which are written in perl 6
06:23 audreyt for those modules, v6.pm is the topmost "sugar" level
06:24 dduncan speaking of all the undersides of Perl 6 being implemented as Perl 5 modules ... is there something existing to make strong variable typing easy?
06:24 audreyt dduncan: see Moose TypeConstraints
06:24 dduncan okay
06:24 audreyt sanug: v6.pm parses perl 6 code and generates perl 5 code that uses "idiom" level modules
06:24 audreyt so they are the next level
06:24 dduncan effective strong typing is a prerequisite for my database stuff
06:24 audreyt the idiom level does not use Perl 6 rules
06:25 audreyt and just use normal perl5 declarative sugar to make things easier
06:25 sanug So I think that colors would do this best - Perl 6 gets one color and when we get to Perl 5 get another color to show the switch
06:26 audreyt Moose.pm would be an example for that
06:26 audreyt well, yeah, but it's all Perl 5 up and including v6.pm
06:26 audreyt the user module, say Rosetta.pm
06:26 audreyt installed from CPAN
06:26 audreyt is written in perl 6
06:26 audreyt handled in p5 land by v6.pm
06:26 audreyt and from v6.pm onward it's all perl5
06:26 sanug OK - so perl6 code gets the Perl 6 color
06:27 sanug and then all below are perl5
06:27 audreyt yup
06:27 audreyt and Rosetta would be a nice example.
06:27 sanug I would like to make special diagram for the magic of v6.pm
06:27 TimToady s/Cfront/Perlfront/
06:27 audreyt that would be nice
06:27 audreyt yes :)
06:27 sanug It is important that all grok the wow of that module
06:28 audreyt below the idiom level it's the "runtime" level
06:28 audreyt Class::MOP, Pugs::Compiler::Rule, Pugs::Runtime::* etc all go there
06:29 sanug Explain idiom in more detail so I can express tat in the graphic
06:29 audreyt ok.
06:29 sanug s/tat/that/
06:29 audreyt look at the synopsis of http://search.cpan.org/dist/Moose/lib/Moose.pm
06:29 lambdabot Title: "Moose - Moose, it's the new Camel - search.cpan.org"
06:29 dduncan slight change of topic, but I was wondering how .id works with non-trivial types
06:29 dduncan eg, what does the .id of a Pair look like?
06:29 dduncan I know that to users it shouldn't matter, but to people implementing composite types, it does
06:30 audreyt dduncan: one possibility - could be just itself.
06:30 audreyt sanug: note the new pseudo-keywords: "has", "isa", etc
06:30 audreyt sanug: those are just regular perl 5 functions
06:30 audreyt but it hides the underlying Class::MOP calls
06:31 audreyt the "has" actually stands for $class->meta->_process_attribute(...) ect etc
06:31 sanug audreyt: How does the installing of the attributes work?
06:31 audreyt sanug: it calls into Class::MOP
06:32 audreyt sanug: basically, for each perl 6 class, there is one "meta object" behind it
06:32 audreyt accessible by the "meta" method
06:33 dduncan one key thing I'm wondering about .id for immutable types is ... are they supposed to generate some neutral value like an integer, two of which can then be compared independently of the type definition, or will they contain references to the actual object all the time and that the object's class still needs to declare a === method which is invoked as needed?
06:33 audreyt so you can add an attribute in perl 6 by saying
06:33 audreyt Dog.meta.add_attribute(...)
06:33 dduncan if it is the latter, I imagine that implementation will be simpler, at a possible cost of performance if the same comparison is done a lot
06:33 audreyt and with Class::MOP it's
06:33 audreyt Dog->meta->add_attribute(...)
06:33 audreyt but it's not declarative
06:33 audreyt and hence non-idiomatic
06:33 audreyt so Moose.pm introduces the idiom of
06:34 audreyt  has 'x' => (is => 'rw', isa => 'Int');
06:34 audreyt which translates to a bunch of underlying calls to meta objects.
06:34 audreyt dduncan: the latter
06:34 dduncan okay, that answers my question
06:34 audreyt sanug: and the win of the idiom layer is that Perl 5 CPAN modules
06:34 audreyt that do not desire to use perl 6 syntax
06:35 audreyt can neverthelss use those idioms to improve their code
06:35 audreyt _and_ the perl 5 code emitted by v6.pm will look clean and idiomatic too
06:36 geoffb .oO( ... which is *extremely* nice ... )
06:36 sanug When i spoke to Stevan Little on Saturday - he showed me a diagram - that had all of the layers inside the meta object protocol
06:36 audreyt yes.
06:36 sanug Do you recall where that is?
06:36 sanug It was in graffle as well - no colors
06:36 audreyt sanug: somewhere in http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/perl5/Perl6-MetaModel/docs/
06:37 lambdabot Title: "Revision 11237: /perl5/Perl6-MetaModel/docs"
06:37 audreyt there are 4 graffles there
06:38 audreyt sanug: so. the runtime layer are, at least ideally, still all pure perl5
06:38 janus` joined perl6
06:38 audreyt but sometimes the perl5 runtime doesn't quite let us do what we want
06:38 audreyt so we delve deeper
06:39 audreyt and use the "core" layer
06:39 janus` hi
06:39 audreyt or "kluge" layer ;)
06:39 audreyt or just neutrally, the "XS" layer
06:39 audreyt which includes autobox.pm, Devel::Caller, etc.
06:39 audreyt also, PadWalker.
06:39 sanug So please explain the magic of v6 again, that you exploited..
06:40 audreyt those augment the perl5 runtime to provide neccessary semantics
06:40 sanug the name v6 doies something magical
06:40 sanug s/doies/does/
06:40 audreyt and I'd like to work with p5p people to make sure that they are documented, supported, and mabye even made into core.
06:40 audreyt sanug: ok. the magick is simple and explained in http://search.cpan.org/dist/v6-pugs/lib/v6.pm
06:40 * TimToady notes that it's 2:40am where Audrey is having her little slumber party...
06:40 lambdabot Title: "v6-pugs - an experimental Perl 6 implementation - search.cpan.org"
06:41 audreyt true...
06:41 audreyt sanug: basically, when perl5 sees "use v6" it's an error
06:41 audreyt "use v6 -pugs" is an error
06:41 audreyt "use v6 -alpha" too
06:41 audreyt but when it sees "use v6-alpha"
06:41 audreyt then it magickally loads v6.pm with -alpha as the import list.
06:42 audreyt v6.pm then uses Module::Compile to precompile the module that invoked it -- say it was Rosetta.pm
06:42 audreyt parse it using Pugs::Grammar::Perl6
06:42 audreyt emit it with Pugs::Emitter::Perl6::Perl5
06:42 audreyt and save the emitted Perl 5 code into Rosetta.pmc
06:42 audreyt so that the next time around, "use Rosetta" will simply pick up the .pmc.
06:42 audreyt end of explanation. see Module::Compile docs for more info.
06:43 * xerox blinkes at chosen names ;)
06:43 sanug Ok so I think this would be not 1 but several slides
06:43 sanug So that the magic is shown one hand wave at a time.
06:43 sanug and then the result is that perl5 is again there when you are done.
06:43 audreyt yes. we collapse one hand wave form at a time
06:43 audreyt yup.
06:44 sanug Then Perl 6 disappears into Perl 5.
06:44 sanug pmc
06:44 audreyt yup.
06:44 sanug And the Objects - can they be collapsed too?
06:45 audreyt yes.
06:45 sanug Stevan talked about optimizations to pare down the 15x - 30x performance hit of the dynamic side.
06:45 audreyt oh, he finished that and released it today as the new Class::MOP.
06:45 audreyt it's now as fast as handwritten code.
06:45 sanug Would like to show those optimizations.
06:46 audreyt but you have to tell v6.pm to "optimize"
06:46 sanug So that has to occur early...
06:46 audreyt which is to say, you promise to close all the classes except those are declared open
06:46 audreyt yeah, it has to happen before the .pmc is written.
06:46 sanug So you can still have your cake and eat it too.
06:47 audreyt yes.
06:47 audreyt so, a Moose object consturcted from v6.pm
06:47 audreyt is indistinguishable from a Moose object constructed using Mosoe idioms
06:47 audreyt the idioms layer is where v6 and regular p5 meet
06:48 audreyt in short, they become normal Perl5 objects.
06:48 audreyt and Perl 6 methods and subs become normal Perl5 subs
06:48 audreyt etc.
06:48 sanug I will refer back to this tomorrow when i resume work.
06:49 audreyt cool.
06:49 audreyt ditto.
06:49 audreyt thanks for the graffling work :)
06:49 * audreyt waves goodnight &
06:49 sanug I see value in public discussion.
06:49 sanug left perl6
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06:57 putter ok, one attempted robbery later let's see if I can update mmd draft.  its very late, so i may just punt till tomorrow.
06:57 xerox b/win 21
06:57 xerox Ops.
07:00 svnbot6 r11238 | audreyt++ | * mmd-draft.txt - putter++ says he's going to edit it,
07:00 svnbot6 r11238 | audreyt++ |   so maybe I'll check in my local clarifications to the
07:00 svnbot6 r11238 | audreyt++ |   spoiler-seppuku paragaph in first... :-)
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07:54 putter audreyt: sigh :)
07:58 TreyHarris guess i didn't read this right.  anyone know how to suppress :todo tests?  prove hits the first :todo and then fails the remaining tests without trying them
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08:02 putter audreyt: I'm afraid my oh so very rough new draft changes story perspective to the meaning of a single signature.  so the whole paragraph you modified is gone.  sorry.  i'll clean up tomorrow.  middle of my night now.
08:03 putter oh, and for clarity, I was the target, rather than the instigator, of the aforementioned attempted robbery.  just in case anyone was uncertain. ;)  walking home from 'thon (well, looping neighborhood in thought).  nothing like it has happened in many years.  sigh.
08:04 putter TreyHarris: there is currently no mechanism but skip to, err, skip tests.  Todo is just a post-test, how should test failure/success be treated, annotation.
08:05 TreyHarris putter: ack, I thought you were making some joke that went over my head.  i'm sorry to hear that!
08:05 TreyHarris putter: huh, but with my prove at least, it prevents any later test from running.  how do i make it continue later tests?
08:06 putter the inability to skip deadly tests is a pain when doing a new pugs backend, or complete pugs alternative.  the tests grew up with pugs, using evals, and commenting out, to deal with problematic ones.  but we dont have a more general mechanism to easily say "skip/eval this test when running under X".
08:07 TreyHarris so if I add a test, I need to do so before the first :todo?
08:07 putter I assume you are running the new p5 non-pugs version of p6?
08:09 putter Or is the observation that normal prove is now broken.  There was fear of this in yesterday(?) removing the #!/usr/bin/pugs line from test files.  which the t/README file said were helpful to Test::Harness and prove.  Have we just hit this problem.
08:09 TreyHarris eh?  no.  i'm running "HARNESS_PERL=/usr/bin/pugs prove -v t/data_types/array.t"
08:10 putter try adding #!/usr/bin/pugs to the top of your array.t, and see if it works again.
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08:11 svnbot6 r11239 | audreyt++ | * Squash warning for Pugs::Grammar::Perl6's invalid syntax error
08:12 pasteling "TreyHarris" at 207.171.180.101 pasted "prove failure after first :todo" (24 lines, 1.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18254
08:13 TreyHarris putter: that's what I'm getting ^^^^
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08:16 TreyHarris (that's after inserting the shebang line)
08:20 svnbot6 r11240 | audreyt++ | * Pugs::Emitter::Perl6::Perl5 - more warnings squash.
08:20 svnbot6 r11241 | audreyt++ | * v6.pm - change "v6-pugs" to "v6-alpha" in distname and docs.
08:20 svnbot6 r11242 | putter++ | mmd-draft.txt: Describes new modified algorithm.  Also altered the approach taken by the spec (now more local, "what it means for my signature here", and less global/algorithmic).  Might need separate "reference implementation" section.  Or maybe not, if the rest ends up clear enough.  Currently very rough - cleanup in morning.  Back to zeroth-draft status.
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08:21 svnbot6 r11243 | audreyt++ | * This be v6-alpha, version 0.006.
08:21 putter TreyHarris: I'm sorry, I really need to call it a night at this point.  With everything I said I would do now done.  I will look at it in the morning (t+sigh 3 hours.  maybe I'll push it back a bit).  It is something which needs to be explored, and I appreciate your pursuing it.  thanks...
08:21 putter good night all &
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08:30 unobe audreyt: i installed ghc-6.5, did svn up, and now Data/YAML/Syck.hsc is barfing: Syck.hsc:180:8: Not in scope: `Buf.unsafeUseAsCStringLen'
08:31 unobe ever run into that?
08:34 xinming hmm, Is current pugs can be compiled with ghc 6.4.2?
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08:37 unobe xinming: the 6.2.12 release tarball i compiled with ghc 6.4.2, but hadn't yet tried it on svn
08:38 xinming /usr/bin/ar: creating dist/build/libHSPugs-6.2.12.a
08:38 xinming *** Wasn't able to find 'Parrot_stub.o', aborting..
08:45 unobe xinming: i've switched to ghc-6.4.2 and am trying to build it
08:45 xinming unobe++
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09:05 xinming unobe: can you build it?
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09:09 unobe nope, but it's not the problems you're running into
09:09 unobe parsec isn't being found even tho' configure finds it
09:09 unobe still working on it
09:19 unobe mental note: don't forget to re-symlink ghc-pkg when going back to ghc-6.4.2
09:19 unobe xinming: are you compiling with PUGS_EMBED="perl5 parrot"?
09:19 xinming unobe: yes...
09:20 unobe oh, okay. i was told a bit ago that it's unstable, so i've been building only with perl5.
09:21 unobe i'll re-build parrot and try with PUGS_EMBED="perl5 parrot" tho' to see if I can get what you're getting
09:23 xinming unobe: I just have ghc-6.4.2 installed. and I didn't tried ghc-6.5.x series...
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09:34 unobe xinming: it's building fine so far. is the error near the end of the build?
09:34 xinming Skipping  Pugs.CodeGen     ( src/Pugs/CodeGen.hs, dist/build/Pugs/CodeGen.o )
09:34 xinming Skipping  Pugs.Help        ( src/Pugs/Help.hs, dist/build/Pugs/Help.o )
09:34 xinming Skipping  Pugs             ( src/Pugs.hs, dist/build/Pugs.o )
09:34 xinming /usr/bin/ar: creating dist/build/libHSPugs-6.2.12.a
09:34 xinming *** Wasn't able to find 'Parrot_stub.o', aborting...
09:34 xinming make: *** [pugs] Error 9
09:35 unobe ok
09:35 unobe right at the end
09:36 unobe when was the last time you updated parrot?
09:41 unobe xinming: did you see this? http://xrl.us/oe3v
09:41 lambdabot Title: "#perl6 2006-07-06,Thu"
09:41 unobe maybe that has something to do with it...
10:05 unobe xinming: built fine for me.
10:05 unobe have you tried updating your parrot to the latest in subversion?
10:06 xinming unobe: Yes, It's the latest...
10:06 xinming both parrot and pugs are latest...
10:06 xinming strange... :-/
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10:10 xinming unobe: what's your perl version?
10:10 xinming don't know if it's perl's problem,  I'm using gentoo, and perl version is 5.8.7
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10:24 unobe oh, i'm on os x 5.8.6
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10:42 ludan hi
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11:12 rafl geoffb: I am still doing this. The next upload will happen in some days, as soon as the latest hs-plugins package is in unstable.
11:13 rafl geoffb: Which will probably be tomorrow.
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13:02 Limbic_Region audreyt ping
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13:23 Limbic_Region seen audreyt
13:23 jabbot Limbic_Region: audreyt was seen 6 hours 34 minutes 24 seconds ago
13:33 meppl guten morgen
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14:32 geoffb rafl, cool, thanks.  there are times when I just want to apt-get and see how things are going, rather than try to get source trees and build tools up to date after some months ...
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15:03 szbalint hm. When building pugs, make runs fine, but when trying to make install:
15:03 szbalint Cannot import `Data.ByteString': it was found in multiple packages: pugs-fps-0.7 fps-0.7 (imported from src/Pugs/AST/Internals/Instances.hs)
15:04 szbalint I think putter had this problem last night, but I can't find how he solved it...
15:04 rafl geoffb: Of course.. I just couldn't update pugs for a while because of various issues with the build system, which now seem to be fixed.
15:04 rafl szbalint: You can hide your local fps.
15:04 rafl szbalint: ghc-pkg hide fps-0.7
15:05 audreyt ghc-pkg unregister --user fps
15:06 geoffb rafl, ah, I get it.
15:06 Limbic_Region audreyt - when/if you feel like working the Win32 build failure - I am a willing guinea pig
15:06 rafl geoffb: At least parrot is pretty much up to date in Debian these days.
15:06 szbalint thanks audreyt. rafl: that didn't work, it said: ghc-pkg: cannot find package fps-0.7
15:06 audreyt Limbic_Region: I think it may be already fixed.
15:07 szbalint seems to build now though.
15:07 audreyt szbalint: did you add the -user?
15:07 Limbic_Region as of when?
15:07 geoffb rafl, cool -- will HEAD pugs build against Debian parrot?
15:07 Limbic_Region I tried it a few hours ago and still b0rk
15:07 audreyt oh ok. same error?
15:07 Limbic_Region I think so,
15:07 particle_ hrmm, the 'ghc-pkg unregister fps' incantation gets me to 'could not find module Data.Yaml.Syck'
15:07 audreyt ok. give me the complete nopaste again?
15:07 Limbic_Region let me nmake realclean (which is also still b0rk), svn up, and try again
15:07 Limbic_Region will nopaste in a few
15:08 audreyt particle_: have you rerun Makefile.PL ?
15:08 particle_ i'll follow l_r's lead and update working copy
15:08 audreyt k.
15:08 audreyt rafl: seems "make install" needs to be updated to carry over the packageconf
15:09 geoffb rafl, OT Debian question: Why sometimes do packages get pulled from testing, while existing in both stable and unstable?  This happened to PDL for a while a few months ago.
15:09 szbalint audreyt: yes, its working now, the comamnd you gave fixed it.
15:09 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "'nmake realclean' failure on Win32 (not entire output)" (197 lines, 15.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18260
15:10 Limbic_Region ok - that's the nmake realclean failure - will post the nmake failure RSN
15:11 Limbic_Region audreyt - fwiw, this is with gcc-lib NOT in pugs root
15:12 Limbic_Region since gcc-lib is not part of PATH, not sure how one would go about fixing find_path anyway
15:14 xinming audreyt: pugs doesn't compile here, with ghc 6.4.2, svn pugs, and svn parrot
15:16 audreyt xinming: compile without parrotembed and it should work.
15:17 audreyt xinming: it looks like maybe you had an incrementally work
15:17 audreyt s/work/build/
15:17 audreyt one with PUGS_EMBED=parrot and one without
15:17 audreyt and they clashed
15:17 audreyt rm -rf dist/build ; perl Makefile.PL ; make
15:17 audreyt should work
15:19 xinming hmm, I didn't touch the %ENV<PUGS_EMBED>, and also, pugs is newly checked-out...
15:20 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "nmake failures on Win32 (entire paste of perl Makefile.PL and nmake)" (515 lines, 26.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18261
15:20 Limbic_Region audreyt - there you go
15:20 Limbic_Region if you would like, I can confirm that copying the gcc-lib back into pugs root works around the failure?
15:21 audreyt k
15:21 audreyt xinming: well, but without PUGS_EMBED=parrot, pugs will not attempt to load Parrot_stub.
15:21 audreyt o
15:24 xinming audreyt: can't pugs be built with parrot embed?
15:25 audreyt xinming: it can, but the problem is that the pugs_embed flag has to be consistant
15:25 audreyt if you run makefile.pl once with embed
15:25 audreyt then make
15:25 audreyt then change some file via svn up
15:25 audreyt then run makefile.pl again without embed
15:25 audreyt then make
15:25 audreyt then you end up with the error you are seeing
15:27 gaal audreyt: coffeeeeeeee
15:28 Limbic_Region audreyt - out of curiosity, do you know why Pugs suddenly started to need to know where gcc-lib is when it never needed to in the past and would the fact that I have mingw/msys installed be screwing with things?
15:29 * Limbic_Region was thinking something along the lines of probling $ENV{PATH} for ld.exe - if found but not with GHC delete
15:30 Limbic_Region this of course is subject to breakage of the unexpected and hard-to-track variety
15:31 particle_ i seem to be compiling fine now after up and realclean
15:31 particle_ ghc-6.4.1 on win32
15:31 * Limbic_Region is using ghc-6.4.2
15:31 Limbic_Region can you nopaste your PATH somewhere for me?
15:33 particle_ after compile finishes, sure
15:33 particle_ btw i'm not using msys
15:34 particle_ hrmm, heap exhausted
15:34 pasteling "particle_" at 144.81.84.166 pasted "win32 path for l_r" (11 lines, 850B) at http://sial.org/pbot/18262
15:46 Limbic_Region yep - me too (heap that is)
15:47 Limbic_Region particle - is there an ld.exe in your path anywhere?
15:48 particle_ no
15:49 particle_ i just restarted nmake after the heap problem, worked fine
15:49 particle_ finished to completion, that is
15:49 particle_ now running 'nmake test'
15:50 particle_ interestingly, 'nmake test' semms to be recompiling pugs :(
15:50 particle_ ah, i see why
15:51 particle_ d:\usr\local\ghc\ghc-6.4.1\bin\ar.exe: creating dist\build\libHSPugs-6.2.12.a
15:51 particle_ ghc.exe: file `s' does not exist
15:51 * Limbic_Region is still catching up with you (second nmake after heap blowup)
15:52 Limbic_Region though I needed to copy gcc-lib from GHC into pugs root
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15:59 rafl geoffb: I don't quite get the problem. What distribution are you running?
16:00 rafl geoffb: Yes, HEAD pugs builds against debian parrot.
16:00 szbalint wth
16:00 rafl audreyt: Why? I thought the haskell lib isn't installed anyway at the moment?
16:01 szbalint audreyt: I think perl5 broke or my build is totally whacky
16:01 Limbic_Region audreyt - aside from having to run nmake twice (ran out of heap), compiling on Win32 works fine if I copy \gat\ghc\gcc-lib to \gat\pugs
16:01 szbalint (I was about to test your changes)
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16:03 szbalint exception handling passes, but array.t, class.t, etc does not.
16:03 szbalint *** No such method in class Array: "&array" at array.t line 60, column 1-30
16:05 audreyt wow, for real?
16:05 audreyt retesting.
16:06 audreyt rafl: but people still see errors for some reason
16:06 audreyt rafl: and it should be made installable too
16:09 rafl audreyt: Any idea where those problems come from? I don't see how they could be related to make install.
16:10 audreyt rafl: hm. maybe it was "make register"
16:10 audreyt which does copy+register still
16:14 rafl audreyt: Right. paths need to be changed from the build dir to the install dir. I'll look into that either later today (where I unfortunately won't have net access) or tomorrow.
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16:15 Juerd Limbic_Region: nack, I'm on vacation
16:16 audreyt rafl: cool, thanks!
16:17 audreyt szbalint: duplicated. fixing
16:17 Limbic_Region Juerd - ok, just wanted to let you know in addition to the hardcoding of channel/network - the ability to use the plus symbol is also gone too
16:17 * Limbic_Region can't karma anyone
16:18 audreyt szbalint: fixed
16:18 audreyt it's an offbyone
16:18 szbalint audreyt: okay, thanks!
16:19 Juerd Limbic_Region: That sucks. Sorry.
16:19 Juerd My internet connecton has over 3000 ms lag, so I can't resonably vim anything.
16:19 Juerd Especially not such complex spaghetti code
16:19 SamB ed(1)!
16:20 Juerd SamB: Lack of overview
16:20 Juerd I've already used ed today a few times for config files.
16:20 SamB just kidding, mostly
16:20 Juerd It's great. But useless for CGI:IRC
16:20 Limbic_Region Juerd - no worries, just letting you know
16:20 Limbic_Region audreyt - I am headed off to lunch but if you think of anything /msg me and I will try when I get back
16:20 Juerd I feel sorry for upgrading CGI:IRC withuot remembering the custom changes
16:22 audreyt Limbic_Region: ok.
16:23 audreyt Limbic_Region: also, I mised your wife's comment yesterday; that was sweet of her :)
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16:35 pmurias_ seen chromatic
16:35 jabbot pmurias_: chromatic was seen 147 days 17 hours 22 minutes 5 seconds ago
16:35 pmurias_ a long time ago...
16:37 szbalint Feb 9th. Indeed.
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16:41 audreyt szbalint: fixed
16:45 svnbot6 r11244 | audreyt++ | * Repair Perl5 embed; was an off-by-one error.
16:45 szbalint audreyt++
16:45 szbalint :)
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16:46 * Limbic_Region returns from lunch and decides that his achey body is a sign that he is or is soon to be under the weather
16:49 putter joined perl6
16:51 putter Hmm.  So an airline passenger can simultaneously be over the weather and under it.
16:51 putter No doubt old news, but, I have a build.  Yay.
16:51 audreyt yay.
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16:52 audreyt putter: I like the new story of mmd-draft
16:53 putter :)
16:53 audreyt the last paragraph needs work
16:53 putter oh yes
16:53 audreyt otherwise I'd say it exceeds the average clarity level of Synopses
16:53 pmurias does anyone now anything of chromatics parrot in perl5 embbeding?
16:53 audreyt pmurias: no. write him?
16:54 putter ok, that made me pause frozen for a good 3 secs.  yipes.  re exceeds.  ;)
16:54 particle_ pmurias: yes, he started it in chicago last week
16:55 pmurias audreyt: wrote to him eariler today
16:55 particle_ it's not yet been checked into the parrot repo
16:55 putter audreyt: but ok, I'll try to remember not to over wordsmith it/
16:55 audreyt cool :)
16:57 pmurias particle: do you know what technology is he using, or how much progress did he make?
16:57 particle_ i believe he's using p5nci
16:58 pmurias i tried doing the same thing before with Inline::C, that's why i'm intrested
16:59 particle_ i think he's got strings going back and forth
16:59 pmurias i got pmc and numbers
16:59 audreyt gaal: http://search.cpan.org/dist/Proc-ParallelLoop/
16:59 lambdabot Title: "Byron Darrah / Proc-ParallelLoop - search.cpan.org"
16:59 putter some items from my "open conceptual issues" todo list include at the moment "how does the new constraint distance metric interact with type compatibility paths which contain implicit conversions", and "think of motivating story which spinclad buys, for why two different role param types need to be comparable".
17:00 geoffb rafl, re: the OT Debian question: I tend to install new Debian boxes every few months, and I always use testing (to get hardware support, etc., without bleeding).  However, I sometimes find a common package like PDL is just plain missing from testing; it exists in oldstable, stable, and unstable, but not testing -- and there's a note in the developer package info page that it was pulled by some automated system.  I was wondering why this silliness happens,
17:00 geoffb since I had the ear of a DD.  :-)
17:01 geoffb It's almost like an RC bug was found, but instead of reverting to a previous version, the package is removed from testing entirely!
17:02 putter P-PL - neat.
17:03 Limbic_Region audreyt - if you can explain to me why Pugs needs to specifically call something in gcc-lib (assuming it is ld.exe) where this never seemed to be an issue before, I can work on a sane fix
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17:08 rafl geoffb: http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?searchon=names&amp;version=all&amp;exact=1&amp;keywords=pdl
17:08 lambdabot Title: "Debian -- Debian Package Search Results"
17:09 audreyt Limbic_Region: I cannot, I don't know :)
17:09 rafl geoffb: pdl obviously is in testing.
17:09 audreyt Limbic_Region: I suspect it's hardcoded in GHC-win32 somehow.
17:09 geoffb rafl, that was an example I fell over a few months ago
17:09 geoffb rafl, sorry for the confusion
17:09 geoffb Hmm, I wonder if I can find a recent one that did that
17:09 rafl geoffb: Maybe it has been removed from testing in the past because it was RC buggy and the maintainer nor an other developer fixed it for quite a while.
17:10 rafl geoffb: That's done to keep the rc candidate bug-free as the next release is quite near :-)
17:10 geoffb rafl, why would it not just be replaced with the version from stable?
17:10 geoffb hmmm
17:10 geoffb painful, though.
17:11 geoffb Ah, here's a more recent example:  http://packages.qa.debian.org/n/nvidia-graphics-drivers.html
17:11 lambdabot Title: "Overview of nvidia-graphics-drivers source package"
17:11 rafl geoffb: Because a) it's not said that the given RC bug which caused the removal doesn't exist in stable and b) It's not guaranteed that the older package from stable would work in a testing environment.
17:12 geoffb rafl, OK, that's fair enough.
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17:12 rafl geoffb: However, I generally don't recommend using testing. For me it caused much more trouble than using sid.
17:12 Limbic_Region audreyt - let me try again.  gcc runs fine as is, and pugs did as well until very recently, do you know what changed to make it break (and if not, should I do a binary revert search until I find the checkin that caused the problem)?
17:13 geoffb rafl, really?  I've heard so many horror stories of "dear god, don't dist-upgrade today, Perl / X / etc. is in pieces on the floor"
17:13 Limbic_Region btw - how do I revert with svn anyway?
17:13 geoffb That's why I've never run one of my main boxes on sid
17:13 rafl geoffb: Of course sid breaks much more often, but those things are pretty easy to fix most of the time, whereas testing b0rkage might be more troublesome.
17:14 geoffb rafl, nod
17:14 rafl geoffb: If things are too fucked to sort them out manually or when I just don't have the time to do so I just downgrade the package and hold it until it's either fixed or I find the time to fix it.
17:14 geoffb rafl, is there a defined place to look for daily sid horrors before doing my regular dist-upgrade?
17:15 audreyt Limbic_Region: yes, it's rafl's change that makes it look at ../../util/runcompiler instead of  ghc
17:15 audreyt not sure which rev
17:15 audreyt (and I'll bbiab)
17:15 Limbic_Region k
17:15 rafl geoffb: I know a wiki of a german comunity and I think there's something on wiki.d.o as well.
17:16 * Limbic_Region starts pestering rafl then
17:16 geoffb rafl, hmmm, OK, I'll go look at wiki.d.o
17:17 Limbic_Region rafl - what exactly is util/runcompiler and why is it being used instead of GHC?
17:17 geoffb rafl, looks like http://wiki.debian.org/Status/Unstable is what you were referring to.  Thanks!
17:17 lambdabot Title: "Status/Unstable - Debian Wiki"
17:19 Limbic_Region actually - I bet I can think of a silly workaround
17:20 Limbic_Region invoke runcompiler from the same directory as ghc.exe instead of from util/
17:21 geoffb rafl, back to on topic questions: Will you be packaging v6.pm for Debian?
17:21 * Limbic_Region waits for rafl before doing anything whacky
17:27 svnbot6 r11245 | gaal++ | * set svn:ignore flag on autodownloaded files
17:28 particle_ is '...' listop, or term?
17:28 particle_ (same for ??? and !!!)
17:29 particle_ S03 mentions '...' in listops (precedence table,) but i'm not sure that's right
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17:33 putter re genders: on mozart-oz list: "One of my programs starts a lot of OS processes [...] However, at one point I get [error] when he tries to select the variable. "  I saw a fun paper go by which compared how views of... keys and bridges (?), were distorted^H influenced by two languages making alternate choices on their genders.
17:33 putter The "he" is very startling for an english reader.
17:34 putter german email addr
17:37 audreyt particle_: my copy of S03 doesn't say that
17:37 audreyt I think it should be term.
17:37 audreyt instead of listop
17:38 audreyt otoh, listop would work equally
17:38 putter is there some wacky way to give them error messages?
17:38 audreyt nvm, I think it's listop :)
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17:40 particle_ dev.perl.org's S03 has list ops as C<' print push any all '...' etc.>
17:41 particle_ okay, i'll add it to parrot/perl6's opp then
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17:43 audreyt there is also !!! and ???
17:43 audreyt fglock: hi!
17:43 fglock hi!
17:44 audreyt thinking about doing T-shirts with "Perl 6 is just a CPAN module"
17:44 fglock nice! with a big "v6.pm"?
17:44 audreyt yup.
17:44 audreyt got a "probably wise" comment from matt sergent
17:44 particle_ Perl6: JACM
17:44 audreyt # http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=32005&amp;op=&amp;threshold=0&amp;commentsort=0&amp;mode=nested&amp;cid=48530
17:45 lambdabot Title: "make perl faster?"
17:45 audreyt er, "probably very wise"
17:46 putter spinclad: how about something this: "any type can of course be viewed as a predicate on objects.  but roles, by virtue of (one of?) their defining property of being folded into classes, and only existing by virtue of such use, look more like predicates on _classes_, and only indirectly like predicates on non-class objects. so
17:46 xinming audreyt: error still exists...
17:46 xinming I just now failed again...
17:47 fglock what's a "Blue Peter"?
17:47 putter ... and that story doesn't work. :/  else :(OrthognonalRole1) couldnt be trumped by :(OrthognonalRole1 OrthogonalRole2).  sigh.
17:47 audreyt xinming: if you comment out line 172 from utils/build_pugs.pl
17:47 audreyt and hit "make" again
17:47 audreyt does that work?
17:47 xinming ok, I'll try
17:48 xinming pass.... :-)
17:49 audreyt putter: "if one side is a strict but smaller subset of another side, that side loses. otherwise, discard Role cards, and both side loses if they are not subset of each other"
17:49 audreyt xinming: you sure your ENV has no PUGS_EMBED?
17:49 audreyt perl -e "print $ENV{PUGS_EMBED}"
17:49 audreyt I need to run
17:49 audreyt bbiab
17:49 xinming I'm using ghc-6.4.2 and I don't know if ghc is installed in /opt matter..
17:50 audreyt no... that shoulfd not matter at all...
17:50 audreyt it's that -DPUGS_HAS_PARROT is somehow in your Makefile
17:50 audreyt trace Makefile.PL and see why it got there if neccessary
17:50 audreyt lunch &
17:52 nothingmuch_ joined perl6
17:58 spinclad putter, audreyt: have some thoughts which for exiguity won't fit this channel, will discuss over high-bandwidth channels when i arrive
17:58 spinclad basically simpler counter-story and algorithm wrt roles; but i need to read your latest thoughts on my way out the door.
18:03 putter looking forward to it
18:05 putter so the card algo just mentioned seems equiv to "params with only roles are a worse fit than any param mentioning a non-Any class; params with only roles are only comparable to each other if a improper subset relation exists, in which case the largest list wins".  hmm.
18:09 putter backing up, we've talked about the desirability of being able to switch between is and does without altering dispatch.  is there a similar desire re roles and subtypes?  (hmm, though from that, I guess, by transitivity, re classes and subtypes, which seems to go against the old hierarchical distance concept).
18:13 spinclad "Chosen|spoiler = alive.":  "Contender | spoiler = alive."
18:14 putter ah, tnx
18:14 fglock what's the command to create/update META.yml automatically?
18:15 spinclad s/sepecu/sepukku/
18:16 kolibrie make dist ?
18:16 putter re implicit conversion and cards, perhaps the card story fall back to "if this zero implicit conversion case fails, then we compare implicit conversion distances.  if different, smaller wins.  if same, then.... something."
18:16 fglock kolibrie: it doesn't work in Pugs-Compiler-Rule/
18:16 kolibrie :(
18:16 fglock bbiab &
18:17 putter fglock: dont know, sorry
18:18 ingy morning!
18:18 spinclad morning ingy!
18:18 * spinclad heads out  &
18:19 ingy hi spinclad++
18:21 putter for anyone who is wondering what is going on, the objective is to find a plausible multi method/sub dispatch algorithm.  it has three parts.  an ignoring of any variants which are not compatible with the call.  that we understand.  a left to right way to combine the results of "which variant is best at just this position?" applications of some distance metric.  that we are starting to get a grip on.  and finally,
18:22 putter a distance metric.  that we are still wandering about, trying to find something with nice properties.
18:22 gaal audreyt: with variant records... data MutObject = MkObject {} | MkForeign{} | MkPrototype{} should be made more qualified
18:22 putter indeed, still trying to picture what nice properties are.
18:22 gaal MkObject??? | MkObjectForeign | MkObjectPrototype is a little long-winded
18:23 audreyt ObjectInstance{...} | ObjectForeign{...} | ObjectPrototype
18:23 audreyt don't use Mk on variants
18:23 audreyt only use Mk for data/newtype with one con
18:23 gaal ah, oka
18:23 gaal y
18:23 audreyt also, shorten to Obj perhaps
18:23 gaal yeah
18:23 audreyt things have wellknown 3-letter shorthands should
18:24 audreyt be shortened
18:24 gaal sure, like Sig
18:24 gaal (not a record type, but still)
18:25 audreyt k
18:25 kolibrie gaal: what do you have your ghc_heap_size set to?  What is recommended compared to physical memory, etc.?
18:25 putter it's sort of a three prong free for all.  ("here is a algorithm, lets see what properties it has and how to explain it", "here is a nice software engineering property, lets see what might implement it, and how to abstract it", "here is a description of what it means to do dispatch, lets look for an algo and explore properties").
18:26 gaal kolibrie: for low mem machines, make sure it's a little less than available ram just before build time
18:26 kolibrie gaal: okay
18:26 gaal for ram-affluent machines, last time I checed 500m was a reasonable value
18:27 gaal but then that was when making a Hs prelude (wow, a while ago!)
18:27 putter though with a stabilizing thread of audrey maintaining a reference impl, and doing minimum required tweaks as new insights go by.
18:27 gaal I managed to build pugs optimied with ~200m during the .il hackathon but you may need a little more nowadays
18:28 kolibrie I'm swapping like crazy right now.  Can I kill, reset my heap size, then make again?
18:28 gaal sure, but perl Makefile.PL before make
18:29 gaal (config.yml changes always need a makefile rebuild)
18:29 kolibrie oh, right, otherwise it won't see the change
18:29 gaal (which makes me wonder if we should make Makefile depend on it...)
18:29 kolibrie perhaps
18:36 kolibrie seems to be much happier now
18:39 gaal cool
18:59 Aankh|Clone joined perl6
19:03 TreyHarris if someone could take a look at http://sial.org/pbot/18254 ... I'm trying to figure out why prove drops dead after the first :todo test and doesn't even attempt the rest
19:03 lambdabot Title: "Paste #18254 from "TreyHarris" at 207.171.180.101"
19:03 larsen joined perl6
19:10 mauke_ joined perl6
19:13 putter TreyHarris:  it works for me with r11243 (modulo adding -Iblib6/lib (or ../blib6/lib if in t dir), since I didnt precompile Test).
19:14 putter and modulo using a non-installed pugs.
19:14 putter are you using precompiled or compiled at this point?
19:17 shachaf joined perl6
19:18 putter in the pugs build dir, r11243, this   HARNESS_PERL="`pwd`/pugs -Iblib6/lib" prove -v t/data_types/array.t   works for me.
19:20 putter as for why it might be failing in the way yours is... I'm not sure.  sorry.
19:24 svnbot6 r11246 | gaal++ | * Pugs::Doc::Hack::Style - Haskell coding guidelines, starting with
19:24 svnbot6 r11246 | gaal++ |   a convention for rationalized, punfree data type naming.
19:25 mauke_ is now known as mauke
19:29 putter lol # re punfree
19:30 putter thank you gaal :)
19:31 gaal putter: :-)
19:31 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
19:31 particle_ moose!
19:37 gaal moose
19:37 ajs_ moo
19:42 svnbot6 r11247 | gaal++ | * Style.pod - minor tweaks
19:42 gaal http://kpm.monksofcool.org/images/innermoose.jpg
19:44 putter :)
19:47 putter hmm.  someone really has to do an animation of the o'reilly language animals, or other symbols where needed, walk into frame and get assimilated into perl creature in center.  perl1, perl2, perl3, perl4, perl5, perl6.
19:47 putter all sorts of room for inside jokes in the assimilation process.
19:51 putter a python looks on in disbelief, shakes its head and slithers off?
19:52 rzoz_ joined perl6
19:54 ajs_ Heh, I'd see it as the python slithering by... spots a small camel... consumes it, and starts to leave... twitches and morphs into a moose with a camel's hump, rubies for eyes and a python's tail... ;-)
19:55 spinclad_ joined perl6
19:56 ajs_ But speaking of python, has anyone here used twisted? I work with one of the primary folks involved, and it seems like a nice networking framework that would work even better in p6....
19:57 * ajs_ thinks thoughts of a large p5/p6 project and cringes in fear and anticipation
19:58 integral is twisted different from POE?
19:58 ajs_ Never toyed with POE
19:58 cognominal joined perl6
19:59 putter ajs_: lol # morph
20:01 ajs_ I realy hate waiting for 10 minutes of tests to run just so I can type "perldoc The::Freaking::Module".... sigh
20:02 putter ajs_: I've never used twisted for anything real, but my impression is a number of core design decisions had a flavor of "we really want to do x, but we can't with python, so we do y instead".  so I suspect one with twisted motivations would do things differently in p6.
20:02 ajs_ putter: interesting. I'll have to ask
20:03 particle_ ajs_: that's why there's google The::Freaking::Module
20:04 putter hmm.  as soon as p6 is working a little better, I expect to see, well, at least if p6 doesnt get _too_ static, I expect to see a transliterating implementation of python on p6.  which raises a couple of questions.
20:04 putter CPAN and python folks - what issues arise in trying to reduce the impedance mismatch?
20:04 PerlJam putter: I didn't get that impression of twisted at all.
20:04 audreyt putter: have you read Sam's piethon summary?
20:05 gaal hmm, "data Routine SingleRoutine | MultiRoutine" or RoutineSingle | RoutineMulti ?
20:05 gaal the latter is more consistent but the former more English
20:05 audreyt gaal: RoutineSingle I think.
20:05 audreyt Test::Simple
20:05 audreyt instead of Simple::Test
20:05 gaal okay, give consistency a chance
20:05 gaal all we are saying...
20:06 * particle_ ups the pun count
20:06 * putter wonsers if he is confusing twisted with... oy... what is python's big vcs cum everthing?
20:06 putter s/wonsers/wonders/  hmm, wonsers should be a word.
20:07 audreyt tailor?
20:07 putter audreyt:  re have read, don't know.  maybe not?
20:07 gaal The Punner Counter clicks! --More-- You feel irradiated
20:07 PerlJam twisted is roughly equivalent to stem (assuming I understand stem properly)
20:07 audreyt putter: http://intertwingly.net/slides/2005/oscon/
20:07 lambdabot Title: "OSCON: OSCon 2005"
20:07 putter PerlJam: I could well be mistaken.
20:08 audreyt the message seemed to be "Yes parrot may be faster than GCC, but only if you don't use PMCs; if you do, it becomes slower than python."
20:08 audreyt but there's been a lot of work in the past year, so take those slides with sodium
20:08 putter oh, the other question was just how to expose p6 capabilities present in python in a nice pythonish appearance.
20:08 putter s/present/not present/
20:08 audreyt but Sam talks about impedence mismatch too, a bit
20:08 audreyt and the Parrot/HLL design aims to resolve that as well.
20:09 audreyt see the namespace PDD
20:09 PerlJam audreyt: Sam also didn't have TGE  :)
20:09 * particle_ suggests the sodium be accompanied by chlorine, for health reasons
20:09 audreyt PerlJam: piethon was about speed :)
20:09 audreyt and TGE doesn't get you speed :)
20:09 audreyt (or lack of. it's orthogonal)
20:09 PerlJam well, that's true
20:10 putter audreyt's sodium hits putters dilute thoughts, and boom
20:10 * gaal looks for a good name for 'Map Ident Val'
20:10 audreyt MIV
20:11 gaal used in Stmt/s_pragmas, Param/p_slots, Code/c_traits
20:11 gaal and ObjSlots is TVar that
20:11 shachaf_ joined perl6
20:11 gaal these are somewhat different uses
20:11 audreyt ValMap?
20:11 audreyt Vappings?
20:11 gaal putter: will you be moosing over?
20:12 audreyt Malues?
20:12 * audreyt can't think of something good
20:12 audreyt well
20:12 particle_ as opposed to Mariable?
20:12 audreyt in Lua it's called Table
20:12 putter MapIndentVal until a better idea arises? ;)
20:12 audreyt let's call it Table and confuse dduncan some more
20:12 putter err, Ident
20:12 spinclad_ losing my marriables
20:12 dduncan joined perl6
20:12 audreyt I think Table is good
20:13 * gaal proposes Desk
20:13 putter ok, I'll keep my eye out for them.
20:13 putter maybe they will be attracted via similarity.
20:13 gaal Nights of the Malue Desk
20:13 audreyt Malloween
20:14 ajs_ To the question of exposing p6 (or any other language) to python through parrot, see my recent p6l comments. I think it's useful to start thinking in terms of the language-speicifc abstraction layers that will be needed, and in the case of restrictive languages like python, those will be LARGE layers.
20:14 spinclad_ eve of the martian mallows
20:14 putter gaal: yes. re office.  I didn't want to join the circus until the folks who needed quiet had most of their day.
20:14 particle_ mmm... bone mallow
20:14 gaal putter: they never showed up today, so come
20:14 gaal I have to leave not-so-far-in-the-future
20:15 putter gaal: ok, be over shortly
20:15 * gaal wallops in puin
20:15 * particle_ notices #perl6 is optimized for pun
20:16 audreyt yes, which is why we target multiple puntime
20:16 putter ajs_: different issue.  two versions of python.  directly on parrot.  and on perl6.  I personally expect the later to be more interesting, but that's not a universal view by any means.
20:16 ajs_ particle_: what do you meme?
20:17 audreyt it's nice to see the channel rejoyce in pun
20:17 putter p6 is basically mutable enough itself (hopefully), that it can be twisted into pythonness.  err, no pun intended.
20:17 putter oy
20:17 gaal now that AST.Internals is not sucking the pun out of everything it is free to flow rampunt.
20:17 spinclad_ but how will the pythoness feel about that
20:17 spinclad_ ?
20:17 ajs_ putter: no, I think there the same. Seeing python through p6/parrot is roughly the same problem (though potentially easier to solve) as seeing p6 through python/parrot. Both languages will need abstraction layers for each target langauge.
20:18 audreyt instead of pie-thon we need a punthon
20:18 ajs_ If v6.pm isn't running by yesterday, I'll take a pun in the face!
20:19 audreyt ajs++ # you win
20:19 * gaal plays P&P
20:19 * putter rests shaking head in hand, groans turning to laughter
20:20 audreyt well, if TimToady is here this will get much worse...
20:20 putter ajs_: no parrot need be involved.  python on p6 on p5.  python on p6 on haskell.  python on p6 on js.  whatever.
20:20 ajs_ spinclad_: pythoness doesn't have to feel. The language defines a set of semantics, and the (for sake of exaple) lang.parrot.perl6 module uses them as provided. Now, it might be ugly in some cases... but I think that's a second-order probolem
20:20 particle_ thank the maker for small favors :)
20:21 audreyt yeah, we can live in relative piece until the supunman returns
20:21 audreyt I mean, peace. (that's a typo, not a typun)
20:21 ajs_ If you're talking about using a python grammar in p6 on top of $runtime, then that's a different animal, true.
20:22 * putter heads out for the hackathon.  it looks suspiciously like fleeing.
20:22 * particle_ defleas putter
20:22 TimToady not sure whether python will be our main squeeze...
20:22 particle_ *how embarassing*
20:22 audreyt oh no the supunman returns
20:23 ajs_ putter: I guess your ship sailed in, since you're time here was fleeting....
20:23 TimToady I just think of myself as a pundit...
20:23 ajs_ "<TimToady> not sure whether python will be our main squeeze..." That's going in a quotes file....
20:24 spinclad_ putter: you won't escape so easily.  out of the fleeingpan into the flier...
20:24 PerlJam TimToady: is that because you often punt language issues into the future?
20:24 TimToady I often shove off issues, but not usually in a punt.
20:25 particle_ this discussion might be described as punctuated equilibrium
20:25 rzoz_ is now known as rzoz
20:26 TimToady Holey acu-pun-cture, Batman!
20:26 PerlJam particle_: or punishment.
20:26 audreyt or just dyspunctional.
20:26 kolibrie hmm, my build died with: *** Wasn't able to find 'Parrot_stub.o', aborting...
20:27 audreyt kolibrie: hmm, you are the second one to report that
20:27 audreyt kolibrie: did you build with PUGS_EMBED?
20:27 kolibrie audreyt: yes
20:27 kolibrie perl5 and parrot
20:27 * particle_ builds with PUNS_EMBED
20:27 TimToady sure it wasn't PUNS_EMBEDD
20:27 audreyt trunk parrot?
20:27 TimToady darn
20:27 ajs_ heh, beat me to it!
20:27 kolibrie audreyt: yes
20:27 kolibrie from this morning
20:28 gaal drunken parrot
20:28 audreyt kolibrie: try pugs r11248
20:28 TimToady it's fjording for the pines...
20:28 audreyt and see if it still run
20:28 kolibrie audreyt: will do
20:28 svnbot6 r11248 | audreyt++ | * try to instrument Parrot_stub.o error
20:29 spinclad_ fjording the river in a borrowed punt
20:29 * audreyt is punning for the fnords
20:29 TimToady the punic wars fit audrey to a t
20:29 kolibrie audreyt: just make, no realclean or anything?
20:29 audreyt kolibrie: aye
20:30 spinclad_ audreyt: no, sorry, can't see em
20:30 * kolibrie makes
20:30 PerlJam perl6 is scrumdiddlypuntious.
20:30 particle_ this is war!
20:30 * particle_ brings out the big puns
20:31 audreyt hmm, "punning for the fnords" is a googlewhack.
20:31 PerlJam particle_: make puns, not way.
20:31 PerlJam er, war
20:31 TimToady don't need big puns in a punic war...
20:31 ajs_ Good greif... I think I've been punt!
20:31 audreyt indeed, you just have to port perl6 to punix
20:31 particle_ punning is half the battle
20:32 TimToady punic("Can't win this one...")
20:32 * gaal punts
20:32 bpphillips left perl6
20:32 ajs_ audreyt: Isn't that what punie is for?
20:32 particle_ this reminds me of a drinking game... where's nothingmuch?
20:32 audreyt ajs_: yeah, it's a pun project
20:33 TimToady nothingmuch already *won*, apparently...
20:33 particle_ patrick ports perl6 to parrot
20:33 spinclad_ took to the hills yesterday in a borrowed car
20:33 ajs_ audreyt: I bet, after all, it's pretty impuntant
20:33 TreyHarris hrm, adding -Iblib6/lib doesn't help, I still get 'Undeclared variable: "$?CALLER::CALLER::SUBNAME" at blib/lib/Test.pm line 268, column 8-276' after I hit the first :todo test
20:33 Daveman joined perl6
20:33 TimToady that boy has a 6th sense about impending, um, whatevers...
20:34 audreyt ajs_: sure, that's for the  punrot-punters mailing list to decide
20:34 TimToady *impunding
20:34 ajs_ audreyt: mercy!
20:34 particle_ puncle!
20:34 audreyt TreyHarris: wait. that Test.pm is old
20:34 audreyt TreyHarris: no Test.pm should say CALLER::CALLER::SUBNAME
20:34 TimToady *rotevers
20:35 audreyt TreyHarris: that is curious. it appears your ext/Test/ checkout is really old
20:35 audreyt or somethiing.
20:35 audreyt maybe try replacing it with http://search.cpan.org/src/AUTRIJUS/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.12/ext/Test/lib/Test.pm
20:35 audreyt or just rm -rf blib/lib
20:35 audreyt and try make again
20:36 gaal audreyt: I don't see any Declarator enum in p6ast. did you add it w/o svk ci or push?
20:36 TimToady [We now return you to the usual mindless drivel of this channel.]
20:37 gaal #perl6: we drive you to drivel
20:37 audreyt my our has state constant
20:37 audreyt gaal: that's it
20:37 aufrank joined perl6
20:37 spinclad_ putter: s/sepukku/seppuku/  # my bad
20:37 TimToady can I quote you?
20:37 PerlJam seppunku?
20:37 spinclad_ sure, but where
20:37 audreyt ?eval q[you]
20:37 evalbot_11168 "you"
20:38 ajs_ Is "is rw" part of the signature of a p6 sub?
20:38 audreyt yes.
20:38 TimToady only if you put it.
20:38 gaal "My state has our constant ???"
20:38 ajs_ As is "sub foo() is rw {}"
20:38 audreyt otherwise perl6 punt it.
20:39 audreyt ajs_: conceptually a Sub holds two signatures; one for the incoming and one for the return
20:39 audreyt gaal: that needs to be reflected in AST :)
20:39 kolibrie audreyt: looks like r11248 worked.  Any expressions I should test before I run the smoke?
20:39 gaal audreyt: does the enum derive Ord like SScope?
20:39 audreyt ajs_: the "is rw" is saying that it returns something that conforms to :(Any is rw)
20:39 audreyt gaal: sure, why not. also, add a return-sgnature to Code
20:39 gaal vecause that's a little sick
20:40 ajs_ audreyt: Ok, so if I "multi sub foo() {}" and "multi sub foo() is rw {}" then "foo()=1" will do the right thing....
20:40 gaal ah, good point about that
20:40 audreyt kolibrie: ./pugs -e 'say 1 ~~ /(.)/'
20:40 TreyHarris audreyt: yes, that's my problem.  since make takes forever, i've been trying to use a binary build to write tests in a source tree i compiled a long time ago, but have since updated
20:40 audreyt ajs_: return value multidispatch, like named arg dispatch, is... well... unspecced.
20:40 TimToady the syntax is specced.  :)
20:40 kolibrie audreyt: 1
20:41 audreyt the semantics not :)
20:41 ajs_ audreyt: hrm... ok, should I assume an implementation for my S29:splice update?
20:41 audreyt but it's not required for 6.0.0 :)
20:41 audreyt ajs_: don't assume that until Pugs 6.2831.0
20:41 spinclad_ a signature already has room for two signatures:  **In -> **Out  or something
20:41 particle_ trey: make unoptimized
20:41 ajs_ audreyt: Ok... then splice gets... interesting.
20:42 audreyt spinclad_: -->
20:42 audreyt it's actually chaining two Sig objects together
20:42 audreyt not sure about currying
20:43 spinclad_ so is --> :: Sig -> Sig -> Sig ?
20:43 monkey_ joined perl6
20:44 TimToady Perl is turning into Haskell.  Someone shoot me.
20:44 ajs_ TimToady: -- bang
20:44 audreyt spinclad_: I think it's Sig->Sig->Constraint
20:45 TimToady missed, haha!
20:45 szbalint I wonder if it means that I should learn Haskell or that I should be very afraid. Or both. :)
20:45 audreyt szbalint: both.
20:45 ajs_ TimToady: Of course, I missed... it was only a comment! The next one's loaded (and probably a continuation)!
20:46 spinclad_ definitely both.
20:46 TimToady learn -> Haskell -> be -> very -> afraid
20:46 spinclad_ even TimToady starts to speak it
20:46 audreyt @djinn learn -> haskell -> be -> very -> afraid
20:46 lambdabot -- f cannot be realized.
20:46 audreyt lol
20:46 TimToady I just like the shiny arrows.
20:47 TimToady I suspect they have a religious significance.
20:47 ajs_ TimToady: they represent apotheosis, I'm sure....
20:48 TimToady metatheosis, surely, or para...
20:48 TimToady could even argue ortho, I suppose.
20:48 spinclad_ they express the directionality of cognition
20:48 ajs_ TimToady: possibly apuntheosis....
20:49 TimToady who? ↬  what? ↫ huh?
20:49 audreyt it is the sign of Apuncalypse
20:49 TimToady no, that v6.6.6
20:50 ajs_ We'll need a Punopsis to understand it!
20:50 spinclad_ our one secret weapon is redirection, and stealth
20:50 TreyHarris stop, this is punishing.
20:51 audreyt but first: repunt for your sins!
20:51 TimToady how many angels can dance on the HEAD of a pun?
20:52 gaal audreyt: again and again?
20:52 TimToady "We never learn"  --a punticle for liebowitz
20:53 * audreyt goes back to work on her confession and punance.
20:55 * TimToady just works on his confusion and pennance.
20:57 ajs_ Ok, next stupid question: can you pass a slurpy by name? e.g. "sub foo($offset=0,*@slurp)" ... "foo(:@slurp)"
20:57 PerlJam ajs_: wouldn't that kind of defeat the idea of slurpiness?
20:57 audreyt ajs_: no.
20:58 szbalint Isn't *%hash the slurpy for named params?
20:58 monkey_ :( for Devel::Caller failing to pass tests
20:58 ajs_ Hrm... I recall one of the things that Larry said about splice very early on was that in p6, we wouldn't have that silly "if you want to provide a replacement list, you have to pass all of the optional parameters" thing
20:59 ajs_ I don't see a way to accomplish that, given the current slurpy mechanism...
20:59 svnbot6 r11249 | gaal++ | * WIP AST code: naming convention updates
20:59 audreyt monkey_: 0.10
20:59 audreyt monkey_: maybe your cpan still carry 0.09?
21:00 TimToady splice @foo, 10 <== @repl
21:00 audreyt ajs_: positional args (and named) can come in multiple batches
21:00 monkey_ monkey_: it's 0.10 that is failing :(
21:00 audreyt monkey_: nopaste the error?
21:00 audreyt prove -lv t
21:01 monkey_ k, one sec
21:01 ajs_ TimToady: that's interesting. It kind of breaks the P5 mindset, but it does work... hmmm
21:02 PerlJam ajs_: lots of things in perl6 "break the perl5 mindset"  :-)
21:02 ajs_ PerlJam: treu
21:02 szbalint This reminds me
21:02 audreyt "break all; break test; break install"
21:02 ajs_ or true, if you're not french ;)
21:02 szbalint what is the current term for <== and ==> ?
21:02 PerlJam szbalint: good question.  Still "pipe" AFAIK
21:02 audreyt I call them "batches"
21:02 TimToady it's in a quantum superposition between pipe and feed
21:02 audreyt because "pipe" confuses me
21:03 ajs_ http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S03.html#___top
21:03 lambdabot Title: "Synopsis 3: Summary of Perl 6 Operators -"
21:03 ebvv joined perl6
21:03 ajs_ "PIPING OPERATORS" is the section
21:03 audreyt <== Atom <== RSS <== RDF
21:03 audreyt so a function is an aggregator
21:03 PerlJam "feed" makes me think of cattle
21:03 TimToady good
21:03 audreyt and *** is a portal
21:03 pasteling "monkey_" at 87.81.40.22 pasted "Devel::Caller failing tests" (26 lines, 1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18274
21:03 pasteling "TreyHarris" at 207.171.180.101 pasted "compile error" (15 lines, 1.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18275
21:03 TimToady might change *** to @@
21:04 TimToady or just stick with named arrays.
21:04 PerlJam *** (or @@) is a worm-hole, <== is just regular space flight.
21:04 audreyt TimToady: what's wrong with @@_ :)
21:04 audreyt monkey_: wow, it crashed. nopaste a detailed run (perl -Mblib t/Devel-Caller.t)
21:04 audreyt and your perl -V
21:04 TimToady nothing, if you have an array of that name declared somewhere.
21:05 monkey_ k, sorry still a noob at tests
21:05 audreyt the idea like $_ it's implicit
21:05 monkey_ <3
21:05 TreyHarris audreyt: make unoptimized failed: "Interface file inconsistency: home-package module `Data.Yaml.Syck' is mentioned, but does not appear in the dependencies of the interface".  i pasted the whole error output above
21:05 audreyt TreyHarris: yeah. is this release?
21:06 audreyt Prelude.pm line 78 doesn't contain a ; for me
21:06 audreyt if you have mixed unoptimised/optimised make
21:06 TimToady I like ==> * for sending stuff down the black hole.  Just not sure what to call the corresponding white hole.
21:06 audreyt then it's possible that interface files gets confused
21:06 audreyt (brb)
21:07 audreyt monkey_: you can force an install and see if v6.pm's tests breaks
21:07 pasteling "monkey_" at 87.81.40.22 pasted "Devel::Caller failing tests (part 2 ;)" (106 lines, 5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18276
21:07 monkey_ oh good stuff
21:08 ebvv left perl6
21:08 monkey_ perl -Mblib t/Devel-Caller.t segfaults at the end :)
21:08 TimToady but I really don't like *** very much.
21:10 TimToady I'd rather say that ==> * feeds to the next * or ** it finds, while * <== feeds to the previous * or **, I think.
21:12 TimToady on the other hand, when do you actually execute the blunt end of the * <== in that case?
21:12 svnbot6 r11250 | Sage++ | split(/;/m, $something) now translates to split(/;/, $something) to avoid nasty issues with the immediacy of /m.
21:15 audreyt monkey_: please paste it to http://rt.cpan.org/Public/Bug/Report.html?Queue=Devel-Caller
21:15 svnbot6 r11251 | Sage++ | Updating completed translations to refelect work to date.
21:15 audreyt and force install, and see if v6.pm tests pass.
21:15 TreyHarris audreyt: I guess I'm just making assumptions about how svn works based on my experience with cvs.  I ran "svn update src/perl6/Prelude.pm", and yet, it still hase a ; on line 78.  ("multi sub evalfile (Str $filename; Str :$lang = 'Perl6')".  what should i run if i really, truly want Prelude.pm to be updated?  delete it first and then check it out again?
21:15 macroron joined perl6
21:16 audreyt oh I see
21:16 audreyt sorry, it means your ./pugs is old.
21:17 TreyHarris audreyt: you're right.  i thought i did a make clean.  guess i forgot.  sorry :-)
21:17 audreyt like, before 6.2.12
21:17 audreyt a fresh checkout perhaps?
21:18 TreyHarris huh, a make clean is in my history...
21:18 TreyHarris yeah, i guess i'd better
21:18 monkey_ audreyt: cool, k
21:19 TreyHarris can i just 'rm -rf *' and 'svn update'?  or is checkout magical somehow?
21:19 szbalint uh-oh.
21:19 szbalint audreyt: perl5 tests still fail :(
21:20 szbalint With a different error now though
21:20 szbalint not ok 1 - elems
21:20 szbalint #   Failed test (array.t line 62, column 1-53)
21:20 szbalint #   Expected: '4'
21:20 szbalint #     Actual: 'undef'
21:22 szbalint some tests from array.t and method.t fail, the rest passes.
21:25 audreyt szbalint: just that one fails?
21:26 audreyt TreyHarris: you can do that yes
21:26 szbalint no, but I didn't want to paste it all.
21:27 audreyt szbalint: ok. and the .elems one is blocking you?
21:28 szbalint no, that was just the first one I found to fail
21:28 szbalint but well I don't know what exactly is blocking me atm, trying to figure it out now
21:28 audreyt ok, please do
21:30 * gaal gets ready to catch a train
21:31 szbalint okay, try traps the exception, $! is set, the problem is that $! is mangled
21:32 szbalint instead of "main::org::apache::derby::impl::jdbc::EmbedSQLException=HASH(0x97cd64c)", it is "user error (main::org::apache::derby::impl::jdbc::EmbedSQLException=HASH(0x97cd64c))"
21:32 szbalint at least for what I need.
21:36 audreyt szbalint: that's easy. fixing
21:37 froh-doh joined perl6
21:37 szbalint thanks.
21:39 audreyt np :)
21:44 * gaal is off to train station &
21:44 svnbot6 r11252 | audreyt++ | * szbalint++ requrested that IO errors should not be wrapped
21:44 svnbot6 r11252 | audreyt++ |   under "user error".
21:46 rafl geoffb: Of course!
21:50 bpphillips joined perl6
21:51 TreyHarris what is this Task::Smoke referred to in so many places?  CPAN doesn't know about it, and Test::Smoke doesn't appear to be it, either, so i guess it's not a typo...
21:55 audreyt http://search.cpan.org/dist/Task-Smoke/
21:55 lambdabot Title: "Gaal Yahas / Task-Smoke - search.cpan.org"
21:56 TreyHarris huh, how strange.  maybe it's just a problem with CPANPLUS.pm
21:57 TreyHarris "[ERROR] 'Task::Smoke' does not contain an author part; [ERROR] Cannot find 'Task::Smoke' in the module tree; No such module: Task::Smoke; No modules found to operate on! Nothing done"
21:57 bpphillips \'\
21:58 monkey_ audreyt: http://rt.cpan.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=19011 :/
21:58 lambdabot Title: "#19011: can&#39;t install latest version on debian linux sarge"
21:58 monkey_ i'm not alone
22:00 TreyHarris cpan says: "Strange distribution name [Task::Smoke]No objects found of any type for argument Task::Smoke".  and I've tried it at several different sites, with perl installs built by me and by others.  would someone for whom this has worked (via a CPAN install) tell me what version of CPAN.pm you have?
22:01 TreyHarris (yes, I can and will download and install it from the dist, but I'd like to track this problem down)
22:04 bpphillips left perl6
22:05 audreyt TreyHarris: I think it's just your cpan mirror havn't been udpated.
22:06 TreyHarris huh, i swore i saw smoke tests happening at YAPC.  lol.  guess i imagined it :-)
22:09 DaGo joined perl6
22:09 audreyt it was known as Bundle::Pugs::SmokeKit
22:09 audreyt gaal changed its name as it's not only pugs specific now
22:10 TreyHarris ah, that makes sense now.
22:15 macroron joined perl6
22:15 ivanfrey audreyt | TreyHarris: I'd like to run the smoketest and upload the results, but I think I should clean up my perl5 installation first.
22:16 xinming joined perl6
22:19 audreyt ivanfrey: yeah.
22:25 ivanfrey audreyt: possibly odobe might be more knowledgeable about this.
22:26 fhork joined perl6
22:48 unobe ivanfrey: i don't think i can help you much. it seems like you installed perl via fink (if your perl is under /sw), and i don't have any experience with fink
22:52 ivanfrey unobe: I can leave the /sw out of my path and rebuild pugs. It's just that I'd like to help you guys debug pugs not necessarily by fixing bugs because that's a bit over my head but by installing and running tests on my 10.3.9 machine. I can even very easily uninstall the Fink installed perl5.
22:57 ivanfrey unobe: But I have a few questions. Does Pugs require Perl 5.8.6? Isn't the default Perl in 10.3.9, 5.8.1. Does this mean I can't run Pugs in 10.3.9 with the default Perl installation?
23:02 ivanfrey joined perl6
23:06 putter joined perl6
23:06 putter 1/2 kg peanum m&m's, 3 dollars.  a long walk, free.  new perspectives on mmd, err, 2 cents.
23:07 audreyt that's a nice one
23:07 kolibrie hmm, trying to build pugs at home now, I get the fps error szbalint had several hours ago
23:08 kolibrie but the command ghc-pkg unregister --user fps does not seem to work
23:08 kolibrie ghc-pkg: cannot find package fps
23:10 * kolibrie puts children to bed &
23:10 putter try it without the --user?  (there are a couple of different package.conf around)
23:10 putter :)
23:10 putter audreyt:  :)
23:10 putter ok, let's see
23:11 putter story 1 - in which putter appeals for a  ;;  mark.
23:11 putter "less important" != "not important"
23:12 audreyt Very Good Idea.
23:12 audreyt surely, ;; is final?
23:12 audreyt i.e. no ; after it
23:12 putter yes
23:12 audreyt nor ;; after it
23:12 putter yes
23:13 putter :)
23:13 audreyt semantically the same
23:13 audreyt just better surface?
23:13 putter no
23:13 audreyt (and to confuse OCaml users?)
23:13 * putter having erased next line of argument, now regrets same ;)
23:13 audreyt ok. how is it different than the "final ;" previously?
23:14 putter no different than final-; .
23:14 putter but final-; (aka last-;), is distinctly different than non-final-;.
23:15 putter and that given (A,B), to make A more important than B, you have to say (A;B;) instead of (A;B) is just wrong.
23:15 vsoni joined perl6
23:16 putter ;; is implicit in end of arguments if _;;_ hasnt already been seen
23:16 putter ie, the end of the parameters which are involved in choice.
23:16 putter non-incidental to choice
23:18 putter silence == not buying yet? :)
23:18 audreyt it's all surface
23:18 audreyt so I fully agree
23:19 putter ah, ok.
23:19 audreyt now ; only appears between params
23:19 audreyt (A;) is bogus
23:19 audreyt so is (;A)
23:19 putter yes
23:19 audreyt k, vehement agreement reached.
23:19 audreyt I don't have to update the .hs :)
23:19 putter :)
23:20 unobe ivanfrey: to the first question: i haven't tried with anything less. To the second (without a question mark): I don't know. To the third: I don't know.
23:20 putter lol
23:20 putter yet...
23:21 unobe ivanfrey: what you could do is download the source code of perl from http://www.perl.org/get.html and try building it
23:21 lambdabot Title: "Get Perl - perl.org"
23:21 putter story 2 - in which cards are coerced
23:24 ivanfrey unobe: the question is how can I tell if my Perl 5 installation is really borked. I mean it doesn't appear to be, but then all these strange things happened.
23:24 ivanfrey unobe: like when I was make installing pugs it was placing a whole bunch of files under /sw.
23:25 vsoni audreyt: I need some help
23:25 unobe ivanfrey: well, you don't consider all these strange things as a sign of borkage, i don't know what to tell ya
23:25 putter distance again becomes hierarchical.  the most significant component being the number of implicit coercions.  the card story is what you do with two distances of equal coercion count.  modulo, for non-zero coercions, you run the card story on the coerced-to types.
23:25 audreyt ivanfrey: well, yes, because we reuse perl5's sitelib and simply s/perl5/perl6/ as our sitelib
23:25 unobe s/you don't/if you don't/
23:25 audreyt vsoni: sure?
23:26 vsoni audreyt: I would like to write some tests before I start fixing IMCC to make it reenterant.........Any ideas how I could write a test
23:27 vsoni s/write a test/write some tests/
23:27 unobe ivanfrey: maybe that's unfair of me to say.
23:27 ivanfrey audreyt: and the build process found the site lib by search the PATH variable, is that right?
23:28 audreyt ivanfrey: by asking the perl you run Makefile.PL with
23:28 audreyt vsoni: well... use the parrot_embed interface?
23:28 unobe ivanfrey: what you could do is just try building a new version of perl
23:29 vsoni and than I invoke the interpreter multiple times
23:29 unobe ivanfrey: well, maybe not should...but that's what i would do
23:29 putter oh, and if more than one coersion class (in a type conversion path) exists, you have to try all of them, and have an unambiguous win.
23:29 vsoni s/interpreter/imcc/
23:30 putter ok?
23:31 audreyt that seems natural.
23:31 ivanfrey unobe: Hmmmmm, if I keep fink's perl and upgrade that one and put that one back in the path and just leave Apple's perl alone, wouldn't that work.
23:32 putter ok, at that point I think we have subsumed spinclad's tree of bundles.
23:32 ivanfrey unobe:Fink by the way sets up a parallel unix universe under /sw
23:33 unobe ivanfrey: i'm don
23:33 unobe 'tknow
23:33 putter and the only capability that we have discussed that here doesnt exist is that two unrelated roles are now incomparable.
23:33 vsoni audreyt: any documentation on embedding
23:34 audreyt vsoni: parrot/docs/embed.pod
23:34 audreyt also check out the mod_parrot tree
23:34 unobe ivanfrey: remember, i don't use fink, so i'm not sure of what else (if anything) it does to the system
23:34 ivanfrey unobe: it uses standard deb packages, but I can choose to either compile from source or install the equivalent binary package.
23:34 audreyt mod_parrot and pugs are currently the only two publicly-available parrot host applications I'm aware of
23:35 audreyt vsoni: also note embed.pod is probably incomplete and/or misleading
23:35 putter story 3 - in which, with immediate problems believed solved, no doubt naively, putter looks further afield
23:35 audreyt very telling, that story
23:35 putter by suggesting there be two flavors of implicit coercioin
23:35 unobe ivanfrey: what version of perl are you using (under fink)?
23:36 unobe did you already say?
23:36 vsoni audreyt: thanks
23:36 ivanfrey unobe: 5.8.6
23:36 putter high cost and low cost.  "we can get there" vs "just as good as"
23:36 audreyt vsoni: np :) good luck. t/* is probably your best bed
23:36 audreyt putter: I think TimToady wants "we can get there" to be explicit
23:36 audreyt concrete examples?
23:36 putter counts as a distance level of coersion, and doesnt
23:37 ivanfrey unobe: but fink also has a 5.8.8 package available.
23:37 audreyt oh.
23:37 audreyt hm.
23:37 audreyt "Just as good as" is perhaps simply "does"
23:37 audreyt in which case it naturally 0-distances out
23:37 unobe i don't think that will make a difference. This is the perl i'm using:
23:37 putter I have another rep, which is a different class, but we're good friends and dont mind switching back and forth.
23:37 unobe This is perl, v5.8.6 built for darwin-thread-multi-2level
23:37 unobe (with 2 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail)
23:37 kolibrie putter: ghc-pkg: /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.4/package.conf: you don't have permission to modify this file
23:38 kolibrie do I want to sudo that?
23:38 audreyt putter: why don't we do this f2f again? :)
23:38 putter err, not another rep.  a...
23:38 audreyt kolibrie: yes you do
23:38 putter f2f?
23:38 kolibrie thanks
23:38 audreyt face to face
23:38 ivanfrey unobe: the only snag here is if some perl programs specify /usr/bin/perl then that's perl 5.8.l
23:39 ivanfrey unobe: you're running 10.4
23:39 ivanfrey unobe: append ? to last statement
23:39 putter because the outer door was locked, I didn't have a cell number, and though standing in the street tossing a peanut m&m at the window might not be well received. ;)
23:39 unobe ivanfrey: yes. /usr/bin/perl is 5.8.6 here.
23:39 audreyt heh
23:40 audreyt putter: I can come downstairs and get you in
23:40 putter f2f tomorrow sounds like a plan though
23:40 audreyt sure, that can do too
23:40 putter oh, or that
23:40 audreyt just come over :)
23:40 putter will do
23:41 putter in a bit.  will give you a 5min warning. ;)
23:42 unobe ivanfrey: i'd try removing /sw from the path when building pugs to see how it goes
23:42 kolibrie ok, if I run as root, suddenly ghc-pkg cannot find package fps, nor if I relax the permissions of /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.4/package.conf and run as myself
23:42 ivanfrey unobe: perl -v
23:42 ivanfrey This is perl, v5.8.1-RC3 built for darwin-thread-multi-2level
23:42 ivanfrey (with 1 registered patch, see perl -V for more detail)
23:42 Daveman left perl6
23:43 unobe ivanfrey: try removing /sw from your path when building pugs
23:44 kolibrie if I put the permissions back, ghc-pkg sees the file, but complains about not having permissions
23:44 audreyt kolibrie: ghc-pkg list
23:44 audreyt and seek fps among them
23:45 audreyt if it's in your user conf
23:45 audreyt then
23:45 audreyt ghc-pkg unregister --user fps
23:45 audreyt should've removed it
23:45 audreyt putter: the doors are open
23:46 pasteling "kolibrie" at 66.160.89.114 pasted "output from ghc-pkg list" (9 lines, 469B) at http://sial.org/pbot/18284
23:46 kolibrie fps seems to be missing
23:47 kolibrie but make complained of having two of them
23:47 Daveman joined perl6
23:47 audreyt kolibrie: if you type "make" now it still complains?
23:47 audreyt are there two GHCs on your system?
23:48 kolibrie I hope not, let me look
23:48 audreyt kolibrie: there's a package.conf somewhere that has fps in it
23:49 putter audreyt: oh, great.  thanks.
23:49 ivanfrey unobe: I removed it halfway through the last build, so I should retry rebuilding it. Is there a make uninstall command?
23:50 audreyt (bbiab)
23:50 kolibrie audreyt++ # /me finds /usr/bin/ghc and /usr/local/bin/ghc-6.4
23:50 unobe ivanfrey: the first "it" being /sw in $PATH, the second "it" being pugs, right?
23:51 unobe ivanfrey: prolly `make realclean`
23:51 ivanfrey unobe: oops sorry, yes
23:53 ivanfrey unobe: I might download the latest snapshot from the subversion repository. Is there anything preventing me from using Xcode?
23:53 putter steven: thank you for your kind words on the spike regards moose.  it disappeared from collective consciousness so fast, I've never been quite clear on just how much or how little impact it had.  my thanks.
23:54 lampus_ joined perl6
23:56 putter &
23:57 unobe ivanfrey: i've never used Xcode. can't help ya there.
23:58 ivanfrey unobe: I better go eat. You just use an svn client and download the source somewhere in your home directory.
23:59 ivanfrey unobe: forgot the ? again.
23:59 unobe ivanfrey: yeah, i do svn co in my ~/dev dir

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