Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-07-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady It's also possible that not many folks read p6c.
00:00 dduncan one detail I put forth that would help for more discussion is where and what nature the test harness would go
00:00 TimToady compared to p6l
00:00 dduncan true
00:00 dduncan I could post it to p6l, but audrey suggested p6c
00:01 TimToady p6c is probably sufficient public notice before the bulldozers move in to tear up the wetlands.  :)
00:02 dduncan on a related note, at some point the test suite should be moved to a different repository-project from pugs, if reasonable, just as the perl 6 specs are already separate
00:03 TimToady some of 'em
00:03 TimToady I like having S29 still under pugs for now
00:03 dduncan the idea is that people's experience with SVN layouts somewhat matches the CPAN distros
00:04 dduncan eg, someone sees a distro, they can find a SVN that more or less matches it
00:04 TimToady and anything else that's primarily still implementation driven
00:04 dduncan of course, the SVN separation can happen later ... it is the CPAN separation thats more important short term
00:04 merlyn TimToady - dunno if you saw the scrollback about sub vs multi sub
00:05 TimToady perhaps we need to distinguish pugs from pugs
00:06 TimToady yeah, still thinking about it.
00:06 surfdue joined perl6
00:06 surfdue what is this?
00:06 dduncan what are you?
00:06 merlyn a channel for people building perl6
00:06 surfdue interesting
00:06 merlyn yeah, what are you? :)
00:06 surfdue so a new version of perl
00:06 surfdue or a fork?
00:07 merlyn if you have to ask, this may not be the place for you. :)
00:07 surfdue im the freenode magical flying pixie horse
00:07 surfdue I go around and check our random channels
00:07 TimToady we don't think this is a very random channel, except when it is.
00:07 surfdue is now known as MagicalFlyingPix
00:07 MagicalFlyingPix ..
00:08 MagicalFlyingPix TimToady, it is when I have never been here
00:08 MagicalFlyingPix *POOF* you are now in /list
00:08 MagicalFlyingPix happy channel list-b-day!
00:08 MagicalFlyingPix is now known as surfdue
00:08 surfdue :P
00:10 dduncan so does that mean #perl6 will show up on http://freenode.net/primary_groups.shtml now?
00:10 lambdabot Title: "Primary Groups"
00:10 surfdue maybe
00:10 surfdue *POOF*
00:10 * surfdue disappears
00:10 dduncan well it ought to ... considering this is a major place for stuff to happen
00:11 surfdue you iseth correct young master.
00:11 prefiks left perl6
00:11 bennymack joined perl6
00:13 bennymack is now known as bennymack[linuxn
00:14 bennymack[linuxn is now known as bennymack
00:14 surfdue bennymack you mispelled linux
00:14 dduncan I will defer further t/ changes for the moment, as the fate of Test.pm partly determines how it will organize
00:14 dduncan and because I should really get to $job stuff
00:15 surfdue anyways, if there is anyone in here that codes perl (thats a givey), and has time on there hands (another givey), and would like to help code a new upload filesharing site. Please feel free to ask questions
00:16 merlyn surfdue - highly inappropriate in this channel
00:16 merlyn just for future reference
00:17 surfdue ok
00:17 merlyn it's like walking into a car factory design meeting and saying "anyone have a used car here?"
00:17 surfdue merlyn, ive talked to you before :)
00:17 surfdue merlyn, i do that all the time over at ford ?
00:17 merlyn whether they do or not, it's the wrong place to ask
00:24 gaal dduncan: ping
00:25 obra
00:25 bennymack hi everybody. I'm here because I was pulled into Perl6's Reality Distortion Field at YAPC
00:25 bennymack i'm interested in trying it out. If I get the 6.2.12 will it have the features that Larry and Damian talked about?
00:25 TimToady welcome to the madhouse
00:25 bennymack *new features
00:26 TimToady don't remember what we talked about.  :)
00:26 TimToady any particular ones you care to name?
00:26 bennymack one sec
00:27 bennymack the argument objects for example
00:28 TimToady ?eval \(1,2,3)
00:28 evalbot_11274 [1, 2, 3]
00:28 bennymack I wish I had that presentation: Perl6 The Final Ascent
00:28 TimToady they're still probably partially implemented
00:28 TimToady most things having to do with objects are getting a refactor after 6.2.12.
00:29 gaal bennymack: Captures will probably be available in the next release
00:29 gaal we're working on refactoring the internals a bit, which is a prerequisite.
00:29 TimToady on the other hand, 6.2.12 is just the Haskell implementation, and a lot of the exciting stuff is going on with v6.pm nowadays.
00:30 TimToady which bypasses the Haskell and compiles down to Perl 5.
00:30 bennymack TimToady: ahh I was wondering about that too. Thanks!
00:31 dduncan as I've also said, my current prediction is that v6.pm will be the first Perl 6 implementation ready for production use
00:31 gaal dduncan: re: tests, a few thoughts.
00:31 merlyn I'm not sure how, unless you move a lot more functionality into perl5
00:31 TimToady mmm, depending on how you define "ready for production".
00:31 dduncan and/or used in production
00:31 TimToady my guess is that it will be pretty darn slow.
00:31 gaal first, please let's not call it certification :)
00:31 merlyn the mismatch between perl6 semantics and perl5 semantics will kill ya
00:31 TimToady at least to begin with.
00:32 dduncan merlyn, have you looked at audrey's tower?
00:32 merlyn yup
00:32 merlyn but there are fundamental hamming principles at work
00:32 gaal second, obra's company is putting some effort into abstracting out the testing tools to a reusable perl 5 smoke system
00:32 gaal it's still in development, but I've seen it and it's looking good.
00:32 dduncan sure it will be slow at first, but it should be functional and useful in the real world
00:32 merlyn there's no amount of code I can type as a human at perl5 to make it do everything perl6 will do
00:32 SamB hamming principles...
00:32 SamB hmm.
00:32 merlyn which means you have to emulate the perl6 world for some operations
00:33 dduncan why is that merlyn?
00:33 * SamB trys to find a really really bad pun...
00:33 merlyn which means slow, and possibly bandwidth mismatches to handle the translations
00:33 dduncan Perl 6 is being implemented over other things that probably didn't do what it does
00:33 merlyn Well - the perl6 world is emulated on haskell
00:33 merlyn this is why it's slow. :)
00:34 merlyn and parrot is being build so that the perl6 world is correctly inside of it
00:34 merlyn that's why it will be faster
00:34 gaal they've been developing it with their needs in mind, which aren't precisely a p6 compiler's needs, but the overlap between them (as well as $random_perl_project) are pretty big, so there's great potential for happiness
00:34 dduncan yes
00:34 merlyn but targeting perl6 to java-vm probably would bite
00:34 merlyn because you'd have to build an emulated perl6 world in java
00:34 dduncan parrot will be faster, but v6 will be ready earlier to do real work with, is my prediction
00:34 merlyn for the parts of perl6 that are not exceeding the semantics of Perl5, sure
00:35 TimToady for problems where correctness is more important than speed, sure.
00:35 dduncan initially thats fine for me
00:35 merlyn and vice versa, yes
00:35 gaal dduncan: most of t/ doesn't contain much pugsisms
00:35 dduncan my initial use of Perl 6 will be mostly as syntactic sugar
00:35 dduncan anyway
00:35 merlyn syntactic brown whole sugar. :)
00:36 dduncan incidentally, I wonder if a Pair type is being backported to bleadperl5, like a few other things are backported ... that would be useful
00:36 TimToady I think we'll see a certain amount of P5-ish looking P6 code in the interests of mapping more directly to the P5 engine.
00:36 dduncan that's how I will code initially
00:36 merlyn right
00:36 gaal re: splitting the release, I'm not sure it's time, just yet, since no project passes any reasonable percent of the test suite except pugs yet
00:37 TimToady but MMD is gonna be an interesting optimization problem.
00:37 gaal but I'm sure now that Test.pm + 01-sanity/ passes on v6, this well get a lot better fast
00:37 TimToady I'm not suggesting splitting the releast that way, just that the word
00:37 dduncan gaal, I don't see that as a problem
00:37 TimToady "pugs" means two different things right now.
00:37 SamB does it mean a kind of dogs?
00:37 obra having a make target to package the test suite could be very cool.
00:38 TimToady It's referring both to the Haskell project and the larger umbrella project that is not necessarily in Haskell.
00:38 gaal obra: echo "testbundle:\n\ttar czvf p6-test.tgz t" >> Makefile :)
00:38 TimToady Maybe the Haskell Pugs should be rename Hugs or something.
00:38 SamB the name is a pretty clear reference to hugs, fwiw...
00:39 SamB hugs is already taken, TimToady ;-)
00:39 * obra grins at gaal
00:39 * bennymack is installing v6 now
00:39 surfdue left perl6
00:39 TimToady Phugs.
00:39 TimToady pughs.
00:39 SamB oooh
00:39 obra At least with phugs, it would have theme music
00:39 SamB second one is better
00:39 TimToady phughs
00:40 gaal gotta go &
00:40 dduncan a lot of my like of Perl 6 is just its improved well-thought syntax, the big features are nice too
00:40 dduncan and the little things help a lot too, like the Pair type
00:40 TimToady .thanks for @Larry;
00:41 TimToady well, I'm being called to go grill some poor defenseless kielbasa...
00:41 dduncan cook them until they don't cry no more, right?
00:42 TimToady I just don't want to know what they're made out of.
00:42 TimToady Later &
00:42 bennymack it seems like it would be difficult to get a lot of minds on the haskell wagon
00:48 dduncan ping gaal
00:48 Jedai joined perl6
00:48 Jedai Hello
00:48 dduncan please reply on p6c what you said about my tests suggestoin
00:49 dduncan if obra's company is doing something that my suggestion may duplicate, please say so there for the benefit of others
00:49 bennymack so i'm installing v6 and it seems like the requirements are the same as the YAPC talk schedule
00:49 dduncan hehe
00:49 audreyt rofl
00:49 dduncan coptor
00:49 obra dduncan: we're building a generalized smoke testing infrastructure
00:50 obra that works well for projects in svn repositories
00:50 dduncan so, that will accomplish what I mention on p6c, where the tests are distributed separately from pugs and v6 on cpan?
00:50 obra it's not a packaging or distribution system.
00:50 obra url to your pc6 post?
00:50 obra p6c
00:50 dduncan its the last one
00:50 audreyt http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.compiler/1434
00:50 lambdabot Title: "nntp.perl.org - perl.perl6.compiler (1434)"
00:51 dduncan yes, thats it
00:51 audreyt dduncan: I think separate svn is largely orthogonal
00:51 audreyt it means one more commit-bit arrangement
00:51 dduncan yes, I agree ... see the post
00:52 Jedai ?eval "Hello world !".reverse.reverse.say;
00:52 dduncan I quote: As to whether any of the above are still maintained within Pugs SVN or moved to separate SVN, that is a possibly orthogonal matter.
00:52 evalbot_11274 OUTPUT[! dlrow olleH ] Bool::True
00:52 obra dduncan: I think it's the bit between () that we're doing
00:52 audreyt so I'd prefer even radical reorganization of the tree to actual split svn
00:52 dduncan second-last paragraph
00:52 obra I think that moving the tests out of pugs svn would be a bad plan
00:52 obra the tests are successful because they're so close to the code with the most hackers.
00:53 dduncan well, as I said, its the appearance of being completely separate on CPAN that I consider important
00:53 obra why is the appearance important?
00:53 audreyt dduncan: I agree very much.
00:53 obra The availability is important.
00:53 dduncan I think it should be possible for one to download just v6.pm and the Perl 6 tests, without downloading anything pugs-specific
00:53 audreyt separate cpan distros that multiple other cpan distros can depend on = very important
00:53 audreyt yes.
00:53 dduncan but the focus of my post is on what CPAN users see, not developers
00:54 audreyt yes.
00:54 dduncan everything can stay in the same SVN
00:54 audreyt dduncan: so write t/Makefile.PL :)
00:54 obra audreyt: gaal did a page ago ;)
00:54 audreyt we also need a reflection API that moves utils/run-smoke.p into the t::
00:54 audreyt obra: that isn't a cpan dist
00:54 obra audreyt: fair enough
00:54 audreyt and basically say "run these *installed* test suite using this impl"
00:54 audreyt i.e. the v6::tests will have the tests somewhere in sharedir
00:55 audreyt using Module::Install::Share
00:55 audreyt installed into sitelib
00:56 audreyt dduncan: where are you based in the meatspace, and will you be at OSCON or some other conf?
00:56 Jedai ?eval "abc".reverse.reverse.say; my Str $s = "abc"; $s.reverse; $s.say; $s.reverse; $s.say;
00:56 evalbot_11274 OUTPUT[cba abc abc ] Bool::True
00:56 obra dduncan: http://svn.bestpractical.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi/bps/browse/Test-Chimps/trunk/ is what we've been up to
00:56 lambdabot Title: "browse: /bps/Test-Chimps/trunk/ (Rev: HEAD, via SVN::Web)"
00:56 dduncan audreyt, I would love to be at various conferences, but I can't afford the $currency at the moment
00:56 audreyt Jedai: .= reverse
00:57 wolverian ?eval "abc".reverse.reverse
00:57 evalbot_11274 ("cba",)
00:57 Jedai Yes but I was most intrigued by the .reverse.reverse ?
00:57 wolverian that looks strangeish
00:57 wolverian :)
00:57 Jedai (my other test were just to check if it was in place)
00:58 dduncan I figure late this year or next year should be a different story though
00:58 audreyt Jedai: what's your email addr?
00:58 Jedai chaddai.fouche@ens-lyon.fr
00:58 svnbot6 r11324 | audreyt++ | * fix "foo".reverse.reverse to return "foo" by declaring
00:58 svnbot6 r11324 | audreyt++ |   that reverse's scalar form always return a string, not a list.
00:58 svnbot6 r11324 | audreyt++ |   Spotted by Jedai++.
00:58 audreyt Jedai: can I send you a commit bit and for you to commit that test into t/builtins/strings/reverse.t?
00:58 audreyt oh good. also add yourselve to AUTHORS. commit bit sent
00:59 Jedai Thanks
00:59 Jedai I'll do it :)
00:59 audreyt yay :)
00:59 cognominal Jedai, are you in contact with the Lyon mongers?
01:00 Jedai Not yet but I plan to (next year as I'm not in Lyon right now)
01:00 dduncan audreyt, the answer to the other part of your question ... I am within meatspace at Victoria, BC
01:01 cognominal Jedai: Lyon will orgainize either the european yapc or the French Perl workshop in 2007
01:02 Jedai Wow :D At least one YAPC I won't miss !
01:02 cognominal probably the second because Vienna has an headstart for YAPC 2007
01:02 audreyt dduncan: oh, you're in .ca?
01:02 dduncan yes
01:03 audreyt cool. maybe I'll visit .bc.ca next year
01:03 Jedai cognominal, you're in the Lyon mongers ?
01:03 dduncan pacific ocean, 48th parallel
01:03 merlyn the land I cannot enter.
01:03 audreyt yes, the land forbidden to merlyn
01:03 dduncan merlyn, why not?
01:03 merlyn you don't let felons enter canada
01:03 dduncan last I recall, Canada was easier to enter than the US
01:03 cognominal no, I am in Paris suburb (Arcueil) so I am part of the parisian mongueurs
01:03 merlyn well - I'm in the US, so that's not a problem to go to the US. :)
01:04 cognominal rgs (a perl5 pumpking) works in Paris. He is divorced and visit his kids at Lyon almpst every WE
01:04 merlyn but the previous 4 YAPCs have been alternatingly (a) in canada or (b) during a geekcruise
01:04 merlyn which is why this was my first YAPC since 19101
01:04 dduncan as I recall, no YAPCs take place on the west coast of NA, because OSCON is in the general area
01:05 dduncan hence there are no conferences that are both cheap for me to attend and travel to
01:05 merlyn No - it's just that nobody pitches it
01:05 dduncan really?
01:05 merlyn yeah, it's not "vs oscon"
01:05 merlyn it's a different market
01:05 merlyn oscon is no longer a perl conference
01:05 merlyn yapc is
01:05 dduncan so Larry's not giving his onion there any more?
01:05 merlyn He will
01:05 TimToady ?eval my Str $s = "abc"; $s.=reverse; $s.say; $s.=reverse; $s.say;
01:06 evalbot_11274 Error:  unexpected "=" expecting ".", subroutine name, array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript
01:06 merlyn O'Reilly makes a token nod toward perl
01:06 merlyn but that's not OSCON's major player any more
01:06 audreyt ?eval "abc".reverse.reverse
01:06 evalbot_11274 ("cba",)
01:06 merlyn why the extra comma?
01:06 obra dduncan: iirc, there's a free conference organized around oscon
01:07 obra and 80% of the value to an active perl hacker is the hallway track, which is free ;)
01:07 merlyn yeah, there's another os "con" near oscon
01:07 audreyt merlyn: it's a bug. and fixed
01:07 merlyn ahh
01:07 audreyt merlyn: evalbot_11275 will have it right
01:07 audreyt (it's currently rebuilding on feather)
01:07 audreyt ?eval my Str $s = "abc"; $s .=reverse; $s.say; $s .=reverse; $s.say;
01:07 merlyn heh - you broke it. :)
01:07 audreyt hm, someone renamed evalbot helper.
01:07 audreyt that must be dduncan++ :)
01:07 * audreyt goes rerun the helper
01:08 dduncan it is very possible
01:08 TimToady prolly me.
01:08 dduncan there may be the odd file name ref / file name or shebang or whatever that got out of sync
01:08 merlyn Hmm. I still need to hack at a linuxmag column
01:09 * merlyn wanders back to #perl
01:09 dduncan brb
01:09 TimToady I distinctly remember renaming an evalbot.p6 to evalbot.pl
01:09 audreyt it's TimToady++ then :)
01:09 fglock joined perl6
01:10 TimToady I even fessed up to it at the time on #perl6, but nobody was listening...
01:11 audreyt I'm still amazed that the entire renaming happened practically overnight
01:11 Jedai joined perl6
01:11 audreyt would easily take me weeks to do it :)
01:11 TimToady audreyt: you are not a good liar.
01:12 audreyt no, seriously. I'll be distracted massively
01:12 audreyt and wander off to write some sort of automator
01:12 audreyt and then hack svk
01:12 audreyt etc etc.
01:12 obra "as it renames, it programmatically transforms the code"
01:12 audreyt yes.
01:12 audreyt since that was what I was about to do :)
01:12 TimToady yes, but the problem of automating it would have fascinated you sufficiently that you'd evenutally have something that would do it in 5 minutes
01:13 audreyt yeah, but the "eventually" can take weeks
01:13 dduncan audreyt, the actual file renames I did manually, with the help of Spotlight to find the files
01:14 dduncan the references inside the files were the easy part ...
01:14 bennymack ok, here's my first p6 noob question. sorry for the 2 line paste
01:14 bennymack ben@slaqfu:~$ perl -Mv6 -e 'for 1,2,3 -> $x { say $x }'
01:14 bennymack Perl v6.0.0 required--this is only v5.8.4, stopped.
01:14 dduncan my text editor, BBEdit, has built-in abilities to search and replace, with regexps, on whole folders of files
01:14 TimToady yeah, well, the strengths of this community are in recognition of the multiplicative results of including both ADD and Autistic roles.
01:15 dduncan I never wrote any actual script to do those 500 or 300 shebang line changes at once
01:15 dduncan but each actual file rename I did one at a time
01:15 dduncan and TimToady helped with those
01:15 audreyt bennymack: we are still trying to find a way to make -Mv6 -e work
01:15 audreyt it's... nontrivial
01:16 audreyt as at -M time, it still doesn't see -e yet
01:16 TimToady well, we tend toward the autistic side of the typeset...
01:16 dduncan but audreyt, I can understand the idea of being distracted from such a task when you see something else to work on
01:16 bennymack ok thanks
01:16 TimToady tchrist always claimed I have "task switching deficit disorder"
01:16 audreyt bennymack: here is workaround:
01:16 audreyt perl `perldoc -l v6` -e 'for 1,2,3 -> $x { say $x }'
01:17 dduncan similarly, I have a lot of difficulty in multitasking
01:17 audreyt but it's so wrong. better ideas welcome :)
01:17 TimToady tracking 3 or 4 conversations at once on IRC is a growth action for me...
01:17 audreyt installing bin/v6-alpha is one way to do it
01:17 audreyt but I wonder if there's some other way.
01:18 bennymack hoohoo ouch
01:18 bennymack time perl v6.pm -e 'for 1,2,3 -> $x { say $x }'
01:18 bennymack real    0m11.426s
01:18 audreyt well, it gets faster if you save it to a file :)
01:18 audreyt echo 'use v6-alpha;' > test.pl
01:18 audreyt echo 'for 1,2,3 -> $x { say $x }' >> test.pl
01:18 audreyt time perl test.pl
01:18 audreyt time perl test.pl
01:19 audreyt to see the difference
01:19 audreyt it's currently slow because the parser is still using backtracking regexes
01:19 audreyt which, from first-hand experience, I know it's a bad idea
01:19 audreyt fglock is converting it to use non-backtracking :ratchet :)
01:20 audreyt bennymack: and help is always welcome -- if you like hacking regexes, that is. want a commit bit? :)
01:21 bennymack audreyt: I must admit I'm not good at regexes
01:21 fglock I'm trying to document the file structure, to help people help
01:22 audreyt fglock++
01:22 ludan joined perl6
01:22 * audreyt goes downstairs to try to locate dinner
01:25 markstos fglock: What should be done if we notice something is broken, when there is currently a lot of tests that are known not to pass? I don't suppose adding another failing test helps in that case. For example, in the recent CPAN releases, hashes aren't parsed: my %h = ( a => 'b' );
01:28 fglock markstos: adding simple tests to v6/t helps the development - it helps to sort out what is more important to implement next
01:29 audreyt merlyn: also, for perl4ish things like this, consider simply writing more 01-sanity/ tests
01:29 audreyt er sorry
01:29 audreyt markstos: also, for perl4ish things like this, consider simply writing more 01-sanity/ tests
01:29 audreyt basically what fglock said
01:30 fglock another option is to add t/02-sanity to pugs/t - what are the most basic things that should be supported
01:31 fglock after we get Test.pm running
01:31 markstos So in other words, if I squeak with a test, I might get some some grease?
01:32 markstos "The squeaky wheel gets the grease".
01:32 fglock and then you can help make the test pass too
01:32 audreyt hm
01:32 markstos fglock: For that, I might wait for your docs about how to help people help.
01:32 * audreyt tries a trick
01:32 audreyt fglock: I think one way to do this is to list the tests to import in MANIFEST
01:33 audreyt and for Makefile.PL to parse that
01:33 audreyt and copy from ../../t/ when needed
01:33 audreyt if you think it's sane I'll go ahead and do it
01:33 justatheory joined perl6
01:33 fglock audreyt: sure
01:33 markstos audreyt: makes sense to me.
01:34 fglock audreyt: how about to use p5 Test.pm for the basic installation?
01:34 markstos unless there is a way to use the existing SKIP/TODO tricks to declare what might pass for v6 or not.
01:34 audreyt fglock: sure
01:34 audreyt markstos: dduncan was thinking that a "capability" flag is the way to do it
01:35 dduncan hello
01:36 markstos audreyt: To somehow declare what the implementation is capable of?
01:36 audreyt markstos: yeah.
01:36 audreyt it's a bit fuzzy though.
01:37 markstos If using SKIP/TODO environment variables allows you to skip/todo tests within a test file, it be better for the finer granularity.
01:37 markstos s/it be/it might be/
01:37 obra killall -SIGFOOD audreyt
01:37 markstos I must admit I haven't looked at how SKIP and TODO can be manipulated in Perl6 much.
01:38 dduncan within the current t/ ...
01:38 dduncan I was thinking that sanity-1 should not use any modules at all, meaning the last one is moved out
01:39 dduncan then sanity-2 tests that Test.pm works and/or the language features that Test.pm requires to run
01:39 fglock markstos: see the v6 tests for simple SKIP and TODO, implemented with try and eval
01:39 dduncan then after that are tests for features that Test.pm doesn't require to run
01:40 markstos fglock: OK.
01:40 dduncan otoh, it appears that 01-sanity is already testing what Test.pm requires
01:40 audreyt I checked non-working Makefile.PL
01:40 audreyt please carry on
01:41 audreyt but I'd prefer 02-basic over 02-sanity if possible
01:41 svnbot6 r11325 | audreyt++ | * v6 Makefile.PL + MANFEST hack to copy t/ -- work in progress
01:41 dduncan but of course
01:41 dduncan I will add it now
01:41 fglock what's a good filename for the hacking docs - is HACKING ok?
01:41 audreyt sure
01:42 dduncan actually, is 01-sanity even a good name ... should that be renamed?
01:42 audreyt Test.pm has its own tests
01:42 audreyt under ext/
01:42 dduncan yes
01:42 dduncan but those should be run after 01-sanity and before everything else
01:42 audreyt in any case, I think cherrypicking tests from t/ for v6 is maybe more interesting...
01:43 audreyt dduncan: the thing is that if it's testing "what Test.pm requires"
01:43 audreyt then by default you can't use test.pm to test it
01:43 audreyt so I still wonder what's 02 for :)
01:43 dduncan yes
01:43 audreyt but in any case... feel free to try and see
01:43 dduncan but 01-sanity doesn't use Test.pm
01:43 audreyt I need to dinner now before obra and/or nothingmuch kills me
01:43 * audreyt waves - bbiab
01:47 svnbot6 r11326 | fglock++ | v6 - base HACKING file
01:50 Jedai ?eval 'Ë'.ord
01:56 TimToady er, looks like we distracted Audrey at the wrong time...
01:56 TimToady the larrybot returns 203 for that.
02:02 svnbot6 r11329 | Darren_Duncan++ | added t/02-test-pm/ which consolidates tests for Test.pm itself ... t/01-sanity/08-test.t became 0-compile.t, all of ext/Test/t/* was otherwise copied in ... I didn't yet remove the copies under ext/Test/t, pending whether or not it is a good idea
02:04 svnbot6 r11330 | fglock++ | v6 - HACKING - most files explained
02:07 markstos thanks, flock.
02:12 fglock joined perl6
02:14 spinclad dduncan: considering Test (the harness, iiuc) as a separate CPAN module from the test suite, it needs its own test suite within its distro tree.  i would think ext/Test/t needs to stay where it is.
02:16 evalbot_11330 joined perl6
02:21 dduncan so I will leave it there
02:22 audreyt dduncan: re t_pugs
02:22 dduncan but the same tests are also useful to run among the normal Perl 6 tests
02:22 audreyt why no t/run/ ?
02:22 audreyt and then change ./pugs to $*EXECUTABLE_NAME in the tests
02:22 dduncan the idea here was that t_pugs contained contained tests only applicable to Pugs
02:22 svnbot6 r11331 | fglock++ | v6 - HACKING update
02:23 dduncan or do those arguments work with v6 et al too?
02:23 dduncan or should work
02:23 audreyt other than -C and -B
02:23 audreyt which is indeed questionable
02:23 audreyt I think they should eventually all work
02:23 audreyt a perl that doesn't support -e or -M or -I
02:24 audreyt is... probably not good for interchangeable deployment.
02:24 dduncan well, that was a rough cut, things can be moved more
02:24 dduncan the idea is that Pugs probaby has a small handful of tests specific to it, which go in t_pugs/
02:24 dduncan those that are generic go in t/
02:24 dduncan I don't know enough about the details yet to decide which go where
02:25 audreyt I think I'll first move them back to t/invocation
02:25 audreyt and then work out which ones are indeed not universal
02:25 dduncan sounds good
02:25 dduncan so then, t_pugs/ will just be an empty folder for now
02:25 audreyt and also it hurts autocompletion
02:25 dduncan but an existing folder
02:25 audreyt I'd much prefer t/implementation-specific/pugs
02:25 audreyt or something along that line
02:26 dduncan if that works out
02:26 dduncan the thought I had was that t/ as a whole could become the test-only distro
02:26 dduncan and presumably a test-only distro shouldn't know anything about specifics of individual implementations
02:27 audreyt that I agree.
02:27 dduncan except that individuals can influence the structure of the generic framework
02:27 svnbot6 r11332 | audreyt++ | * move t_pugs/invocation back to t/run/.
02:27 dduncan to better accommodate them
02:27 audreyt I'd argue your notion of t_pugs should always be empty
02:27 audreyt if there's something ./pugs can do that cannot be expressed as a capability
02:28 audreyt then we need to add some declaration to say that capability
02:28 dduncan so then just remove t_pugs/
02:28 audreyt already done
02:28 audreyt but I agree the name "pugs" should not appear anywhere in the t/ hierarchy names
02:29 audreyt dduncan:++
02:29 audreyt dduncan++
02:29 dduncan since you removed the whole dir, refs to it in docs need updating ...
02:31 audreyt also t/bugs
02:31 svnbot6 r11333 | fglock++ | v6 - HACKING - "Implementing new syntax"
02:31 audreyt is misnamed
02:31 audreyt obra suggests t/uncategorized
02:31 audreyt which is good. I'll do the mv.
02:32 dduncan I know that t/bugs needs to be broken up, but on short notice it was better than t/pugsbugs
02:33 audreyt Juerd: may we remove t/Dialects/ ? I think it's now better suited to a module that implemnts those dialects, should one exist
02:33 fglock please let me know if there is something more I should write in HACKING - it's just the basics right now
02:35 audreyt dduncan: yeah, lookat the passing ones especially in  t/xx-uncategorized/ and sort them -- that'd be wonderful too
02:36 audreyt ?eval "reverse".reversed.reversed
02:36 evalbot_11330 is now known as evalbot_11333
02:36 evalbot_11333 Error: No such method in class Any: "&reversed"
02:36 audreyt ?eval "reverse".reverse.reverse
02:36 svnbot6 r11334 | audreyt++ | * rename t/bugs to t/xx-uncategorized.
02:36 evalbot_11333 "reverse"
02:37 play9999 joined perl6
02:41 Jedai :)
02:46 miyagawa joined perl6
02:51 svnbot6 r11335 | fglock++ | v6 - HACKING - all files are described; copyright/license
02:51 svnbot6 r11336 | Darren_Duncan++ | brought lib/Pugs/Doc/Hack.pod and some other docs up to date with changes to t/ et al ... other parts of Hack.pod still need updating
02:52 dduncan it occurs to me that lib/Pugs/Doc/Hack.pod has stuff that wasn't true since 2005 ... I will address the obvious parts now
03:15 nothingmuch has anybody seen my card reader?
03:16 spinclad ?eval "reverse".reverse.reverse.reverse
03:16 evalbot_11333 is now known as evalbot_11337
03:16 evalbot_11337 "esrever"
03:16 obra I haven't :/ what style is it?
03:17 nothingmuch obra: usb, cf (no others)
03:19 nothingmuch it's gray
03:19 nothingmuch i think it's by fuji
03:19 nothingmuch hmm
03:19 obra nod. I'll keep m,y eyes open
03:19 nothingmuch okay
03:19 nothingmuch thaks
03:19 nothingmuch *n
03:25 nothingmuch found it
03:25 nothingmuch well, remembered where I lost it =)
03:27 nothingmuch obra: do you have windows in any form on your macbook?
03:28 obra   yes
03:28 obra XP in parallels
03:28 nothingmuch hmm wait
03:28 nothingmuch i think autostitch may have a mac version by now
03:29 nothingmuch oh, nope
03:29 xdg joined perl6
03:29 nothingmuch anyway, i'm going to import the NEF raw images, and exports jpegs for the panoramas... can you run it for me?
03:30 obra sure.
03:30 obra url?
03:30 nothingmuch http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~mbrown/autostitch/autostitch.html
03:30 lambdabot Title: "AutoStitch"
03:30 nothingmuch (awesome software, btw, too bad it isn't opensource)
03:32 obra tell me when i cna get images
03:33 obra looks like http://www.kekus.com/download/index.html calico is the mac version
03:33 lambdabot Title: "Kekus Digital - Panorama Tools for OS X :: Download"
03:35 nothingmuch obra: will do. is it free?
03:35 nothingmuch nevermind, checking right now
03:35 nothingmuch god aperture can kill a computer
03:37 nothingmuch <3 UV filters
03:38 nothingmuch the pictures look far less hazy then reality did
03:48 markstos I'm starting to pick up where audreyt left off on the Pugs-Compiler-Perl6/Makefile.PL refactor. In particular, I'm removing the test files that are now being copied over from the main test tree as part of "perl Makefile.PL"
03:52 diotalevi joined perl6
03:52 nothingmuch ola diotalevi
03:52 diotalevi Hi.
03:52 diotalevi I hoped I'd just run into you.
03:52 diotalevi Lucky me.
03:52 nothingmuch if i told you you had a beautiful  body, would you hold it against me?
03:54 diotalevi Heh. You ask so nicely.
03:55 diotalevi So what kind of format is that Module-Compile/t/fold_blocks.t thing written in?
03:55 diotalevi I'd write a failing test for it but he didn't write it in any perly language.
03:56 * nothingmuch is guessing Test::Base
03:56 nothingmuch checking
03:56 nothingmuch yes
03:56 nothingmuch basically
03:56 nothingmuch test base is data driven testing
03:56 nothingmuch === Fold a heredoc whilst preserving ~s is the test case
03:56 diotalevi Yay lisp?
03:56 nothingmuch --- perl is the type of test
03:57 nothingmuch it also contains the input
03:57 nothingmuch oh wait
03:57 nothingmuch filters({ perl => 'process' });
03:57 nothingmuch no_diff;
03:57 nothingmuch run_is perl => 'folded';
03:58 nothingmuch that's the part that determines how things are tested
03:58 nothingmuch --- perl and --- folded are just the fields
03:58 diotalevi I wish this stuff were written in something sane.
03:59 nothingmuch it filters the perl entry of every test record with the process method, and then tells Test::Base to run_is (That is make sure that is( process( $entry->{perl} ), $entry->{folded} );
03:59 nothingmuch foreach my $entry split_it_according_to_ingy_rules(<DATA>) )
03:59 nothingmuch it makes sense in a very ensugared kind of way
03:59 nothingmuch i think the block folding is there to make sure that source filters that don't care about heredocs, comments, etc get these magic hex strings
04:00 nothingmuch which are then reinflated
04:00 diotalevi K.
04:00 diotalevi So have you noticed that empty tt blocks are a syntax error?
04:01 nothingmuch nope, I haven't
04:01 nothingmuch i only used tt for very specific code
04:01 diotalevi Didn't work for me. It threw errors.
04:01 nothingmuch and haven't really tested rigorously
04:01 * nothingmuch takes a look
04:01 diotalevi C<use tt;\nno tt;>
04:01 audreyt ...Test::Base, like most ingyware, is actually a very good idea, nicely executed, but the initial learning curve can be a bit strange :-)
04:02 markstos I deleted some files, but svn didn't notice. How do I get svn to notice some files are gone? (I'm used to darcs, which notices automatically... )
04:03 audreyt svk ci --import
04:03 nothingmuch audreyt: could you help with the MC silliness?
04:03 audreyt oh wait. you are using svn ;)
04:03 audreyt well... "svn up" to revert and "svn rm" to delete
04:03 markstos I don't mind switching to svk.
04:03 audreyt ok. in svk then, just rm, then "svk ci --import"
04:03 nothingmuch yay svk
04:04 markstos Ok. I think for the moment I'll use "history" to figure out what I deleted.
04:05 SamB you know what darcs doesn't notice?
04:05 SamB when you do find -name '*.hs' | xargs rm, thats what...
04:05 nothingmuch HOLY CRAP I LOVE MY MUM"S CAMERA
04:05 nothingmuch i took a picture the a-10s that ruined our (clkao and me) lunch while hiking
04:05 nothingmuch you can see the pilot's breathing tube
04:05 audreyt SamB: which is why I vastly prefer ~/.svk/ for metadata.
04:06 nothingmuch SamB: you can still co that darcs repo to reconstruct it, methinks
04:06 diotalevi zowie. That thing you had with you in Chicago?
04:07 nothingmuch diotalevi: yep
04:07 audreyt nothingmuch: not if you _are_ the darcs repo...
04:07 nothingmuch audreyt: the patch files shouldn't be affected, just the pristine tree
04:08 nothingmuch IIRC
04:08 nothingmuch i may be wrong though
04:08 audreyt oh hm. point.
04:08 nothingmuch but ~/.svk vs. $PWD/_darcs both have tradeoffs
04:08 SamB I'm sure you can reconstruct it from patches
04:08 nothingmuch i'd rather have a choice of using either according to my preference
04:08 nothingmuch but that is bloatful software
04:08 SamB as long as you didn't have any important changes that you hadn't recorded yet
04:09 SamB I meant to do find -name '*.hi' | xargs rm
04:09 nothingmuch SamB: so what did you mean by "doesn't notice" ?
04:09 SamB it doesn't notice anything is wrong right away
04:09 nothingmuch "wrong"
04:09 nothingmuch ?
04:10 nothingmuch why does it care about .hi files?
04:10 SamB well, I typoed it to ".hs"
04:10 SamB so it did the wrong thing...
04:10 nothingmuch uh
04:10 nothingmuch i still don't get it
04:10 nothingmuch please don't say "wrong"
04:11 nothingmuch say what you expected and what actually happenned =)
04:11 fglock joined perl6
04:11 SamB well, I was expecting to have typed "*.hi" correctly
04:12 SamB but I actually typed it as "*.hs"
04:12 SamB so it deleted all my .hs files...
04:12 SamB (including the ones in the _darcs/ directory)
04:13 nothingmuch okay
04:13 nothingmuch so what did darcs do/not do?
04:13 nothingmuch notice that they were gone and let you revert that?
04:13 SamB thats what it didn't do, yeah
04:15 nothingmuch hmm
04:15 nothingmuch did you submit a bug?
04:15 nothingmuch i can reproduce and it seems pretty nasty
04:16 nothingmuch i can repair it by using darcs get --no-pristine
04:16 nothingmuch but that really sucks
04:17 markstos What's happening is that darcs is comparing your working copy against the pristine tree and noticing there is no difference, because the reference copy of the file is gone, too.
04:17 svnbot6 r11338 | markstos++ | v6 - Remove test files in favor of having them be copied over by "perl Makefile.PL"
04:17 svnbot6 r11338 | markstos++ | by analyzing the manifest.
04:17 svnbot6 r11338 | markstos++ | Also, add new t/data_types/hash.t. It should fail, but unfortunately,
04:17 svnbot6 r11338 | markstos++ | the ".tc" test file is poorly formed, so all tests are skipped instead.
04:17 markstos It should be fixable by "darcs repair", which rebuilds the pristine tree from the patch set.
04:18 shachaf joined perl6
04:18 nothingmuch oh right, i forgot that even exists
04:18 markstos It's avoidable in the future by using "darcs query manifest" or "ack" to list files in the current dir, and exclude _darcs.
04:19 nothingmuch ack++
04:19 nothingmuch lovely tool
04:19 nothingmuch all it needs is -A -B and -C
04:19 markstos Yes, I just installed it to avoid seeing ".svn" directories....
04:20 nothingmuch well, for svn there is really no reason to use svn =)
04:20 nothingmuch svk++ for 1 ...
04:20 nothingmuch but i still prefer darcs' lightweight funkiness
04:21 markstos My reason to use svn is that svk seems to be more complex. It ask me more questions and has more behaviors.
04:21 nothingmuch that's my reason to use darcs ;-)
04:21 markstos It really bothers me that sometimes "svk commit" sends files upstream, and sometimes it commits locally.
04:22 nothingmuch you get used to it
04:22 audreyt markstos: my initial proposal for "svk switch" has
04:22 audreyt "svk offline"
04:22 audreyt "svk online"
04:22 audreyt as to train people into thinking in POP3 client terms
04:22 nothingmuch heh
04:22 SamB it isn't a bug, though...
04:22 audreyt i.e. in offline mode when you hit "send"
04:22 audreyt it's actually in outbox
04:22 markstos I'm sure, but I prefer the simplicity of darcs. It has record, and push, and the difference is clear.
04:23 audreyt and I agree :)
04:23 * audreyt thinks darcs's win is mostly due to not having to be bug-for-bug compatible with svn, and therefor cvs, and therefore rcs
04:23 markstos I initially tried to use darcs to commit to Perl6, but it seems like it's not used at all in actually.
04:23 nothingmuch yup =)
04:23 audreyt otoh, there's something to be said about compatibility...
04:24 * nothingmuch 's #2 reason for darcs is that anything is a repo
04:24 nothingmuch http, ssh, etc
04:24 markstos audreyt: I think it was a great social decision to host Perl6 in svn.
04:24 SamB svn is supposed to be bug-for-bug compatible with CVS? I don't think so...
04:24 audreyt SamB: the command set
04:24 svnbot6 r11339 | fglock++ | v6 - HACKING - links; added to MANIFEST
04:24 audreyt not the semantics
04:25 audreyt the surface feel
04:25 SamB oh, sure, wart-for-wart, mostly
04:25 audreyt in that regard svk is not unlike perl6 and darcs is not unlike haskell :)
04:26 nothingmuch aye
04:26 SamB only with even worse algorithms...
04:26 audreyt i.e. what svk did to svn is comparable to what v6.pm is doing to perl5...
04:26 nothingmuch svk is a revision control chainsaw
04:26 nothingmuch darcs is like a katana
04:26 nothingmuch real ninjas can also kill with a chainsaw quite cleanly
04:26 SamB a katana with some bad big-O complexity
04:26 nothingmuch but occasionally they fry the catalyst repo
04:26 nothingmuch and then a truer ninja must rollback everything
04:26 nothingmuch *cough*
04:27 audreyt when you kill with a chainsaw, I hear it's called "frag"
04:27 * nothingmuch has never been burnt by darcs' conflict behavior
04:27 SamB I thought that was rockets
04:27 SamB I ran into it when Lemmih did massive changes to Conjure...
04:27 audreyt maybe. the last time I played FPS it was Doom 2
04:28 SamB well, I dunno, this was SIM Car
04:28 SamB okay, okay, Streets of SimCity
04:28 audreyt and truth to be told I didn't enjoy it, but I did prefer chainsaw, and giggled a lot. :)
04:29 nothingmuch hey
04:29 nothingmuch girls don't play shoot-em-ups
04:29 * nothingmuch is an unreal-tournament-assault-sniper-rifle guy
04:29 audreyt I was 14 or so, and it was the only game available in our .com office for a while...
04:29 svnbot6 r11340 | markstos++ | v6 - Add section on "writing tests" to HACKING, to explain about the new "perl Makefile.PL" hackery.
04:30 nothingmuch hmm
04:30 nothingmuch when I was 14 i didn't even know how to program
04:30 nothingmuch i was just getting started with html
04:31 * audreyt ponders playing katamari for a bit.
04:31 diotalevi So with this M::C stuff, doesn't Ingy eventually have to know whether the next thing being looked at is an expression or an operator and whether something is in a string or not?
04:32 diotalevi I just got << in some strings to get M::C to fail.
04:32 diotalevi In the test suite that is.
04:32 audreyt diotalevi: yes. PPI or MAD is prolly the only sane way out of this
04:33 audreyt a patch to use PPI to implement M::C folding would be very nice.
04:33 audreyt (or MAD.)
04:33 diotalevi yeah. I was just about to say that but didn't when you already did.
04:36 TimToady eep.
04:36 TimToady Use of uninitialized value in subroutine entry at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.6/Test/TAP/Model/File.pm line 80.
04:36 justatheory joined perl6
04:36 TimToady "... error: The submitted smoke has an invalid format!
04:37 nothingmuch aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah what did I do?
04:38 nothingmuch my line 80 doesn't look like it could generate that error
04:38 svnbot6 r11341 | Darren_Duncan++ | updated lib/Pugs/Doc/Hack.pod to bring the 'Source tree map' section up to date
04:38 svnbot6 r11342 | fglock++ | v6 - HACKING - more info
04:38 nothingmuch my line 81 might possibly
04:38 TimToady my $scalar = List::Util::max(@values);
04:38 nothingmuch that's my line 89
04:38 audreyt running smoke here to reproduce
04:39 TimToady repeats that message about 15 times at the end of the smoke.
04:40 TimToady smoke.html seems well formed enough for firefox.
04:40 TimToady but only did about 3000 tests
04:41 TimToady so I don't think the smoke tester has tracked all the directory changes.
04:41 TimToady I might be a little out of date on that though.
04:42 TimToady now there's a new one.  svn up produces:
04:42 TimToady svn: Working copy 'perl5/Sub-Multi/inc' is missing or not locked
04:42 nothingmuch TimToady: the routine that generates the test case objects (one per block) seems to gnenerating that warning
04:42 nothingmuch err error
04:43 nothingmuch which seems failry bogus
04:43 nothingmuch because the sub in question is the filter (i think)
04:43 nothingmuch which is always hard coded
04:43 nothingmuch so something is calling _c (the convenience construct method guy) in a naughty way (i think)
04:43 nothingmuch likely cause is malformed TAP output
04:48 TimToady got a fresh 'svn up' so I'll try it again.
04:49 diotalevi I'm new to svn. If I have a checkout is it normal that subdirectories will get reported as not being under version control even though it was originally provided in the co?
04:50 diotalevi Tried svn diff src/dynpmc/Makefile from within a parrot checkout and got "svn: 'src/dynpmc/Makefile' is not under version control" which is wrong, AFAIK.
04:51 SamB probably it is a generated file
04:51 audreyt it is a generated file.
04:51 nothingmuch jupiter and saturn
04:52 dduncan what about them?
04:52 nothingmuch just singing
04:53 nothingmuch http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/pink+floyd/astronomy+domine_20108806.html
04:53 lambdabot Title: "Pink Floyd | Astronomy Domine Lyrics"
04:53 diotalevi bummer.
04:54 SamB this is how you do it: o/` yodo, yo-yo-yo-yo yoda o/`
04:55 * nothingmuch is paying $40 for a *$@%!% panorama stitching app
04:55 nothingmuch if *ANYBODY* wants their panoramas stitched
04:55 nothingmuch =)
04:55 nothingmuch luckily making good panos is just a function of CPU time
04:57 diotalevi got the *right* makefile this time. thanks for the pointer audreyt.
04:58 audreyt np :)
04:58 * markstos wonders of hugin is any good at Panorama stitching. http://hugin.sourceforge.net/
04:58 lambdabot Title: "hugin - Panorama Tools GUI"
04:58 nothingmuch markstos: i tried that a while back, IIRC
04:58 nothingmuch http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~mbrown/autostitch/autostitch.html
04:58 lambdabot Title: "AutoStitch"
04:59 nothingmuch this is what i want
04:59 nothingmuch unfortunately it's a govnermnet funded university project
04:59 nothingmuch so it's only got commercial licensing
04:59 nothingmuch </cynical>
05:00 nothingmuch obra: i'll actually take you up on the macbook
05:00 svnbot6 r11343 | fglock++ | v6 - TODO update
05:00 nothingmuch the reg key will take ~24 hrs to arrive
05:00 markstos AutoStick does look neat.
05:01 nothingmuch it's got very good output... i've used it several times before
05:01 nothingmuch but using virtual pc silliness
05:02 markstos fglock: thanks for adding hash and array to the TODO list. :)
05:05 audreyt smoke completed and uploade
05:06 fglock markstos: not sure what's the best way to implement the runtime yet - maybe translate all @xxx to $_ARRAY_xxx may get closest to the p6 semantics - but hash/pair is a bit more difficult
05:06 audreyt I don't seen any problems here
05:07 audreyt fglock: hm, what's the problem with reusing native hash and array types?
05:08 audreyt just contexts?
05:09 fglock audreyt: not sure yet - will need some tests to see how it works
05:10 cmatei joined perl6
05:11 audreyt ok. something like Perl6::Contexts is always possible
05:11 fglock %a = (1,2,3) works already
05:13 fglock a block containing a list is always a hash or a pair, right?
05:15 audreyt uh
05:15 audreyt no
05:16 audreyt If the closure
05:16 audreyt appears to delimit nothing but a comma-separated list starting with
05:16 audreyt a pair (counting a single pair as a list of one element), the closure
05:16 audreyt will be immediately executed as a hash composer.
05:17 audreyt also, {} is a hash
05:21 fglock is '{  }' also a hash (with spaces inside)
05:22 audreyt yes
05:23 audreyt heh. Simon Cozens, in the POD of B::Generate:
05:23 audreyt This module can obviously be used for all sorts of fun purposes. The best one will be in conjuction with source filters; have your source filter parse an input file in a foreign language, create an op tree for it and get Perl to execute it. Then email me and tell me how you did it. And why.
05:23 audreyt this sounds eeriely familiar...
05:29 obra *laugh*
05:30 * nothingmuch mentions something about talking to rgs about this in OSDC
05:30 nothingmuch all we need is a volunictim to actually execute this
05:35 audreyt mm volunictim.
05:35 audreyt victeer
05:38 nothingmuch i don't like victeer
05:38 nothingmuch it sounds like it involves winning
05:38 amnesiac joined perl6
05:39 audreyt ...and sneering
05:45 svnbot6 r11344 | Darren_Duncan++ | removed some stuff from MANIFEST.SKIP that actually is in version control, sorted the rest
05:48 svnbot6 r11345 | fglock++ | v6 - hash composer: '%a = { }; %b = { 1, 2 }; %c = { $a }' emits hash,hash,code;
05:48 svnbot6 r11345 | fglock++ | - not implemented yet: '%d = { $pair, }; %e = { 1=>2 }'
05:49 nothingmuch ughghghgghhgg
05:50 nothingmuch Darren_Duncan--; # perl5/Data-Bind should *not* be rolled into the next release of pugs even if it is under version control
05:50 nothingmuch etc etc
05:51 dduncan so MANIFEST.SKIP isn't just for generated files etc?
05:51 dduncan and .svn and stuff
05:51 audreyt it's a list of things we don't bundle with Perl6-Pugs.
05:52 dduncan sometimes its hard to tell whats cruft when things are routinely out of date
05:52 dduncan I can revert that file then
05:53 dduncan a related question ...
05:53 fglock sleep &
05:54 dduncan if you say "svk status" , does it look in MANIFEST.SKIP so to not display various generated files that aren't in version control with '?'s
05:54 dduncan if so, I'm getting somewhat inconsistent results; eg, some Makefile show up, others don't
05:55 scook0 joined perl6
05:56 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/DSC_3487.jpg
06:01 dduncan quick question ... the order of items in the file doesn't matter, does it?
06:01 dduncan while I revert the items, I'm inclined to leave them sorted so they're easier to search in
06:02 nothingmuch dduncan: probably not
06:02 nothingmuch ExtUtils::Manifest
06:03 nothingmuch since they're actually regexes they don't have an "order"
06:03 nothingmuch if a file matches any of these it'll be skipped
06:03 obra -> bed
06:03 dduncan yes
06:04 dduncan I saw a redundant one, I think: ^throw_away/ and ^throw_away
06:04 dduncan will keep shorter
06:04 nothingmuch nuh uh
06:04 nothingmuch keep the one that is more explicit
06:04 nothingmuch =)
06:04 nothingmuch it doesn't like the throw_away directory
06:04 dduncan fine then
06:05 nothingmuch not any file whose path starts with throw_away
06:05 nothingmuch but meh, it doesn't really matter
06:05 dduncan eg, we might have a throw_away_not_really
06:05 Khisanth joined perl6
06:05 dduncan but as I said, both were there before, so the less specific subsumes the other anyway
06:12 svnbot6 r11347 | Darren_Duncan++ | restored MANIFEST.SKIP entries removed in r11344, but made them sorted in groups by [full match, match start, match end, match middle]
06:51 nothingmuch http://gallery.woobling.org/album57
06:51 lambdabot Title: "Woobling :: Untitled"
07:06 Aankhen`` joined perl6
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07:12 nothingmuch clkao_: ping re link
07:12 nothingmuch good night
08:12 clkao_ hi
08:31 f0rth joined perl6
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08:48 Khisanth joined perl6
08:51 * clkao_ pushes the bos-lhr branch
08:51 pingu joined perl6
08:55 svnbot6 r11348 | clkao++ |  r15253@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 01:11:42 +0100
08:55 svnbot6 r11348 | clkao++ |  disable the "is" sub emit cleverness.
08:55 svnbot6 r11349 | clkao++ |  r15254@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 02:08:34 +0100
08:55 svnbot6 r11349 | clkao++ |  add_multi interface for incremental declaration.
08:57 nnunley joined perl6
08:57 svnbot6 r11350 | clkao++ |  r15255@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 02:13:24 +0100
08:57 svnbot6 r11350 | clkao++ |  die when there is extra incoming positional parameters.
09:00 svnbot6 r11351 | clkao++ |  r15256@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 02:28:36 +0100
09:00 svnbot6 r11351 | clkao++ |  Pass simple-multisubs.
09:00 svnbot6 r11352 | clkao++ |  r15257@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 03:06:35 +0100
09:00 svnbot6 r11352 | clkao++ |  Support "my sub foo {}", which is local *foo = sub {}.
09:03 svnbot6 r11353 | clkao++ |  r15258@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 04:26:42 +0100
09:03 svnbot6 r11353 | clkao++ |  Optionaly Pugs::Compiler::Regex->compile cache with Cache::FileCache.
09:03 svnbot6 r11353 | clkao++ |    Before:
09:03 svnbot6 r11353 | clkao++ |      % time perl -MPugs::Compiler::Perl6 -e1
09:03 svnbot6 r11353 | clkao++ |      13.221u 0.067s 0:13.66 97.2%    10+23038k 0+0io 0pf+0w
09:03 svnbot6 r11353 | clkao++ |    After: (note the second run)
09:03 svnbot6 r11353 | clkao++ |      % time perl -MPugs::Compiler::Perl6 -e1
09:03 svnbot6 r11353 | clkao++ |      13.835u 0.231s 0:14.54 96.6%    10+24234k 0+0io 0pf+0w
09:03 svnbot6 r11353 | clkao++ |      % time perl -MPugs::Compiler::Perl6 -e1
09:03 svnbot6 r11353 | clkao++ |      3.153u 0.134s 0:03.36 97.6%     10+13086k 0+0io 0pf+0w
09:03 svnbot6 r11354 | clkao++ |  r15259@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 05:14:50 +0100
09:03 svnbot6 r11354 | clkao++ |  ->arity.
09:06 svnbot6 r11355 | clkao++ |  r15260@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 05:25:45 +0100
09:06 svnbot6 r11355 | clkao++ |  Pass builtin/arity.t
09:06 svnbot6 r11356 | clkao++ |  r15261@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 06:30:16 +0100
09:06 svnbot6 r11356 | clkao++ |  doc fixes.
09:08 chris2 joined perl6
09:08 svnbot6 r11357 | clkao++ |  r15262@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 06:57:31 +0100
09:08 svnbot6 r11357 | clkao++ |  Cache for yapp too, this makes Pugs::Compiler::Perl6 load time down to 1sec.
09:08 svnbot6 r11358 | clkao++ |  r15263@ab:  clkao | 2006-07-09 07:02:48 +0100
09:08 svnbot6 r11358 | clkao++ |  src_to_blib - touch pmc files at the end, so they don't get recompiled.
09:10 clkao_ seatguru++ # finding me power on economy
09:11 monkey_ um, the paste page isn't working :(
09:11 monkey_ so anyway
09:11 svnbot6 r11359 | clkao++ | Fix PCR bootstraping problem.  use p5 version of iterator-engine.
09:12 monkey_ does anyone have any idea why the following doesn't seem to terminate:
09:12 monkey_ multi sub foldr (&f, $x) {$x}; multi sub foldr (&f, *$h, *@t) {&f($h,foldr(\&f,@t))}; foldr(sub {@_[0] + @_[1]},(1,2,3));
09:13 monkey_ the last line just never returns
09:13 monkey_ i'm a complete p6 noob thoug, so maybe i've got bad syntax or i'm missing something
09:13 clkao_ is there try(...) ? i thought there's only try {block}
09:15 clkao_ t/perl5/basic.t, that is
09:15 elmex joined perl6
09:18 clkao_ ?eval try(1)
09:18 evalbot_11337 is now known as evalbot_11359
09:18 evalbot_11359 Error: Cannot cast from VInt 1 to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
09:18 clkao_ ?eval try({1})
09:18 evalbot_11359 1
09:18 clkao_ ?eval try {1}
09:18 evalbot_11359 1
09:18 clkao_ mmm
09:25 clkao_ meet superfast v6 compile ;)
09:39 larsen joined perl6
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10:03 Jedai joined perl6
10:03 Jedai Hello
10:06 svnbot6 r11360 | clkao++ | * Move eval from prefix op to a runtime function.
10:06 svnbot6 r11360 | clkao++ | * Support eval(..., :lang<perl5>).
10:12 mj41_ joined perl6
10:13 mj41_ hello,
10:13 mj41_ Could not find module `Data.ByteString':     use -v to see a list of the files searched for   (imported from src/Pugs/AST/Internals/Instances.hs)
10:14 mj41_ win32, ghc 6.4.2
10:15 svnbot6 r11361 | clkao++ | * Make try emit a do block, so "if try { ... }" would work.
10:15 svnbot6 r11361 | clkao++ | * Pass perl5/basic.t
10:18 Jedai is now known as Jedai666
10:22 Jedai666 is now known as Jedai
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12:58 meppl guten morgen
12:58 Jedai Hello
13:16 nothingmuch_ joined perl6
13:34 nothingmuch_ morning
13:35 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
13:58 gaal hey nothingmuch
14:03 theorbtwo joined perl6
14:07 nothingmuch hi gaal
14:07 nothingmuch whazzaaaaaaaaaap
14:07 * nothingmuch waits for all the slackers to get up so that we can have breakfast
14:15 gaal we went to see Rocky Horror last night, in the theater where "it all started"
14:28 nothingmuch oi
14:28 nothingmuch one of my exes was really into that in a scary way
14:28 * nothingmuch has bad connotations since
14:47 gaal two amusing things, to me: first, the back talk has been being updated all along: there were mentions of cell phones and Bush
14:48 gaal second, most of the cast were under thirty, meaning they were born after this particulat venue had stopped putting up the show (this was the first time in years)
14:50 gaal (omg present perfect progressive passive again!)
15:00 nothingmuch heh
15:00 nothingmuch gaal++; # nice silliness
15:14 ludan joined perl6
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15:26 FurnaceBoy joined perl6
15:31 nothingmuch joined perl6
15:37 clkao_ nothingmuch!
15:37 Aankh|Clone joined perl6
15:39 ajs_home What do I have to do in order to acquire this mythical commit bit that Larry said was incoming? Does an account need to be created somewhere that I give as a command-line option to svn?
15:40 nothingmuch clkao_: !
15:40 nothingmuch did you see your pics?
15:40 cognominal joined perl6
15:41 clkao_ nothingmuch: yes! very nice! except the one i am sleeping
15:42 nothingmuch clkao_: you're up already
15:42 nothingmuch upload yours
15:43 nothingmuch i need to link to my winning entry in the hideous hiker competition
15:43 * nnunley grins.
15:55 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
15:57 nothingmuch clkao_: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15:58 gaal ajs_home: can we use the email you used in the post to p6-l?
15:59 clkao_ nothingmuch: zzz
15:59 nothingmuch clkao_: UPLOAD
16:01 * clkao_ lazy
16:01 gaal ajs_home: actually I see that an invitation has already been sent to you; did you not receive it?
16:02 nothingmuch clkao_: oh come on
16:02 nothingmuch i wanna see that picture
16:02 ajs_home Sorry was away a bit
16:02 ajs_home I'm a back, and yep, [email@hidden.address]
16:02 gaal resending
16:03 ajs_home k, thanks
16:03 ajs_home Mail may take a bit. I greylist.
16:03 ajs_home I'll check it later, after I see A Scanner Darkly
16:03 gaal resent: with this metabit you can invite others, too.
16:04 gaal heh, I just saw that last night - 1
16:04 gaal enjoy
16:04 ajs_home gaal: Thanks... oh, and what did you think? Good adaptation?
16:04 gaal I wouldn't want to spoil anything for you so let's talk after you see it :)
16:05 ajs_home k, wilco
16:07 monkey_ gah, don't suppose anyone has any thoughts on the foldr problem i posted earlier?
16:08 monkey_ hmm
16:08 monkey_ ?eval 1
16:08 evalbot_11359 is now known as evalbot_11361
16:08 evalbot_11361 1
16:08 nothingmuch gaal: is meta-bit-meta-bitting now std?
16:08 nothingmuch i wasn't sure if i should invite as admin or not
16:08 monkey_ ?eval multi sub foldr (&f, $x) {$x}; multi sub foldr (&f, *$h, *@t) {&f($h,foldr(\&f,@t))}; foldr(sub {@_[0] + @_[1]},(1,2,3));
16:09 evalbot_11361 (no output)
16:09 monkey_ hmm
16:09 gaal nothingmuch: ajs already had a metacommitter invite set for him
16:10 nothingmuch gaal: i meant like, new invitees
16:10 nothingmuch in general
16:10 gaal audrey said a couple of times that she's happy with more metacommitters, and ajs has been doing S29 work
16:10 nothingmuch is ajs special for getting meta comitter access or not?
16:10 nothingmuch ah
16:16 integral_ joined perl6
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16:39 putter joined perl6
16:39 putter hi all
16:39 putter re mmd dispatch
16:40 clkao_ greetings
16:40 putter hi clkao :)
16:40 putter my next line is "oh, never mind, I get it".  :)
16:40 clkao_ putter: sub::multi is for you, fill in the vapourware detection loop ;)
16:41 putter ok :)
16:42 putter are there partial orders on classes/roles?
16:44 putter the two parts which have remained stable for a while are the phase 0 "ignore variants who's signatures are not compatible with the call capture", and type narrowness comparison is inclusion-based.
16:45 TimToady To the first approximation, the basic criterion is that people you've met personally can have metacommit access.
16:46 TimToady (that's what Audrey told me)
16:46 TimToady basically we just want to make sure metacommiters are real people. :)
16:47 clkao_ me . o O (anna)
16:50 TimToady (so that we can come and break their kneecaps if they do something stupid. :)
16:50 svnbot6 r11362 | markstos++ | simple code formatting/alignment fix.
16:50 svnbot6 r11363 | nnunley++ | Quick extraction of all the calls to *::Internals::* functions.
16:53 putter are the variants of a multi sub, subs, and of a multi method, methods?
16:54 putter or simply a Code,Signature tuple.
16:54 clkao_ nothingmuch: you are not on #svk, we are loving moose there
16:54 szbalint How is a meta commit bit different from a regular commit bit?
16:54 putter not a pressing question, I've just been wondering
16:55 putter meta lets you add commiters
16:55 szbalint ah
16:58 szbalint I think I've only met TimToady from here.
17:02 TimToady so you could give me a metacommiter bit.  :)
17:02 TimToady especially since you already have one.
17:05 nothingmuch joined perl6
17:09 szbalint :)
17:11 lisppaste3 joined perl6
17:12 putter anyone willing to hear a mmd story?
17:14 putter mmd = multimethod dispatch algorithm.  i'd explain it all as the story goes.
17:17 svnbot6 r11364 | markstos++ | v6 - update docs for Sub::Multi and Data::Bind. peer review requested.
17:20 svnbot6 r11365 | markstos++ | v6 - start 'CHANGES' file for
17:20 svnbot6 r11366 | markstos++ | My last commit was an oops. This adds another entry Sub::Multi CHANGES.
17:22 diotalevi joined perl6
17:23 gaal airport &
17:25 putter gaal: have a good flight.
17:25 putter markstos: ping?
17:30 putter ah well.  I need a user to soundboard the user story on mmd with.  bbl &
17:46 Jedai Could someone send me a commit bit (normal ;) ), audrey said she would send me one but I think I missed it
17:53 shachaf joined perl6
18:07 szbalint Jedai: It is already sent. Did you not receive it?
18:09 Jedai I did not :( You sent it on chaddai.fouche@ens-lyon.fr ?
18:10 hexmode joined perl6
18:17 svnbot6 r11367 | nnunley++ | Adding a missing dependency.
18:21 penk joined perl6
18:22 larsen___ joined perl6
18:40 nothingmuch møøsage
18:40 xdg joined perl6
18:41 audreyt Jedai: check your spam box?
18:41 audreyt Jedai: or just register on http://rt.openfoundry.org/ yourself
18:41 audreyt and tell us your id
18:47 Bit-Man joined perl6
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18:53 svnbot6 r11368 | audreyt++ | * First draft of Feb 2006 Perl 6 Summary from Ann Barcomb (kudra).
18:53 svnbot6 r11369 | audreyt++ | * add kudra to AUTHORS.
18:56 svnbot6 r11370 | audreyt++ | * move to summary.
18:56 svnbot6 r11371 | audreyt++ | * 02-28.
19:11 markstos joined perl6
19:18 svnbot6 r11372 | jedai++ | * Adding a test for reverse in t/builtins/string\n* add jedai to Authors
19:18 Jedai It seems I was added automagically after creating a "jedai" account since you already added me as a commiter
19:18 Jedai Is it normal ? o_O
19:28 bpederse_ joined perl6
19:33 audreyt that is normal
19:33 audreyt very nice :)
19:33 audreyt Jedai++
19:38 bpederse_ left perl6
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20:42 fglock wow - the irc daily logs are getting huge again :)
20:51 fglock clkao_: ping
20:52 ajs_home When I submit the registration page on openfoundry it just comes back blank... is that typical?
20:53 clkao_ fglock: pong
20:53 fglock clkao_: I saw the last commits - nice!
20:53 clkao_ fglock: ;) it's now superfast
20:54 clkao_ fglock: i was going to make smoke work. but it seems there's some fun with PERL5LIB
20:56 kanru joined perl6
20:56 audreyt ajs_home: just refresh POST
20:57 audreyt hit ctrl-r
20:57 khisanth_ joined perl6
20:57 ajs_home Worked nicely, thanks audreyt
20:58 clkao_ audreyt: how goes
20:59 ruz joined perl6
20:59 khisanth_ joined perl6
20:59 audreyt working on docs/summaries/2006/02-28.pod with nothingmuch
20:59 khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth
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21:11 clkao_ moose
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | Updates to S29 / Functions based on p6l disucssions and some general cleanup.
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | Fleshed out or otherwise modified:
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * constants
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * sprintf
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * grep/map
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * pop/push/shift/unshift/splice
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * wait/fork
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * sleep
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * sign
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * defined/undefine/undef
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * zip
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * substr
21:11 ajs_home Ahem...
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * join
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * bless
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | * ord/chr
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | Also, some gereral cleanup around optional arguments syntax. and removing
21:11 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | code-as-documentation where I've provided actual documentation.
21:12 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | Also moved waitpid to obsolete section, since named arguments on wait
21:12 svnbot6 r11373 | ajs++ | subsume its functionality. It's not clear if we need or want an alias...
21:12 ajs_home er ... sorry about the long comment :-/
21:14 svnbot6 r11374 | nothingmuch++ | uri shortening script
21:16 SamB joined perl6
21:16 svnbot6 r11375 | audreyt++ | * 02-28: joint proof-reading and link fixes with nothingmuch+
21:19 svnbot6 r11376 | audreyt++ | * properly utf8'ing
21:21 fglock joined perl6
21:21 nothingmuch kudra++ # real work behind summaries
21:21 svnbot6 r11377 | nothingmuch++ | add -u option to shorten script - to unshorten uris
21:21 audreyt kudra++ # indeed
21:23 fglock how about creating an AUTHORS file for v6.pm?
21:24 fglock clkao_: please let me know if there is anything I can do to help you - I'm now working on array/hash
21:31 clkao_ fglock: there's some t files failing compiling, even more, it's infinite loop when parsing
21:31 nothingmuch clkao_: photos
21:32 fglock clkao_: the infinite loop may actually be the parser backtracking over some error - I'll check
21:35 clkao_ nothingmuch: working on i. i think i forogt my card reader, where i now have the usb calbe
21:35 svnbot6 r11378 | nothingmuch++ | stub for 03-31.pod
21:38 svnbot6 r11379 | nothingmuch++ | stubs and props for other months
21:45 svnbot6 r11380 | nothingmuch++ | small fixes to the summary and summary stubs
21:45 fglock clkao_: in t/01-pod.t - the error is because the eval was moved out of the lexical context - it happens in a subroutine now
21:46 fglock eval needs to be inlined
21:46 clkao mm
21:48 svnbot6 r11381 | nothingmuch++ | explain wtf is parrot-porters
21:48 lisppaste3 joined perl6
21:50 fglock clkao_: it's incredibly faster
21:50 svnbot6 r11382 | nothingmuch++ | revedrt nothingmuch--'s change, and s/perl6-internals/parrot-porters/ where appropriate due to list rename
21:50 clkao fglock: ;))
21:52 nothingmuch http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3934788900154749704&amp;
21:55 nothingmuch i'm surprised they didn't make fun of the segway incident
22:03 szbalint oh they finally renamed the list? interesting++
22:04 obra szbalint: chip decreed that parrot-porters was a part of resetting the culture.
22:05 audreyt amen to that
22:11 svnbot6 r11383 | fglock++ | v6 - added infix:{'=>'}
22:19 clkao fglock: we also need to emit things respecting $infix:<XXX>
22:20 fglock clkao: example?
22:20 clkao if you override infix:<+> somewhere
22:21 fglock I was leaving this for later - it makes optimizing much more difficult, because all ops need to be tested before executing
22:22 fglock localizing the grammar is possible, but it's not implemented yet
22:23 fglock but it is in the TODO list
22:26 fglock however, objects implementing ' ' can be translated to overloads
22:26 fglock 'plus'
22:28 Khisanth joined perl6
22:29 clkao i think we need a new set of tests 02-prelude that supports the syntax and semantics used by prelude that is to be shared
22:33 fglock where does Cache::FileCache stores files in windows?
22:34 clkao i don't know. <tmp directory>/FileCache
22:36 fglock thanks!
22:41 dduncan joined perl6
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23:03 TreyHarris anyone good with figuring out why Build scripts are installing where they are?  I install everything in my home directory, but so far, even with prefix, install_base, and all the makemakerflags set to my home dir, it's still trying to install DateTime::Format::MySQL into /usr/local/man and /Library/Perl/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/auto/DateTime...
23:07 bennymack perlbot cpan
23:07 perlbot Comprehensive Perl Archive Network (where to download perl modules) is at http://www.cpan.org/, and can be searched with http://search.cpan.org/
23:07 bennymack hmm
23:17 svnbot6 r11384 | fglock++ | Pugs/Grammar/Precedence.pm - (1,) parses as ('1',null) instead of '1'
23:29 svnbot6 r11385 | fglock++ | v6 - {1=>2} is Code; {1=>2,} is Pair/Hash
23:30 clkao fglock: can you make t/builtins/arrays/elems.t parse fail gracefully?
23:30 clkao it's currently looping
23:32 nothingmuch clkao++ # some photos
23:34 fglock clkao: looking
23:48 dduncan following suggestions posted here yesterday, wherein I said I couldn't afford to attend any conferences short term (the cheap ones, YAPC, require plane fare, those close by, OSCON, are expensive), it was suggested that I could try the "hallway track" of OSCON ... having looked more into that event, I've come to realize that there is a lot going on there that is free, and those parts are generally more valuable than any sessions or tutor
23:48 dduncan despite the short notice, I am now strongly considering going and doing this ...
23:48 dduncan so besides those listed as speakers, and hence would be in the area, I'm interested in knowing who will be there
23:49 dduncan and also, where you will be staying at the time
23:49 clkao nothingmuch: my camera date is fscked
23:52 nothingmuch =(
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