Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-07-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 vsoni seen audreyt
00:02 jabbot vsoni: audreyt was seen 4 hours 56 minutes 48 seconds ago
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01:11 mugwump audreyt, TimToady, @Larry: if you define a class and a role with the same name, what happens?
01:11 mugwump by design, I mean
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01:34 merlyn what's the name of the Module::Compiler thingy that works like filter?
01:38 Steve_p Module::Compile?
01:39 * Steve_p isn't sure
01:39 merlyn Yeah, the v6 thingy
01:39 merlyn I remember seeing a second distro that was like Filter::Simple was to Filter
01:39 enantiodrome joined perl6
01:39 Steve_p Hmmm
01:42 mugwump http://search.cpan.org/dist/Module-Compile/ is it
01:42 lambdabot Title: "Ingy döt Net / Module-Compile - search.cpan.org"
01:42 merlyn right, but there was another module released nearby
01:42 merlyn perhaps from audreyt?
01:43 merlyn nope, I guess not
01:44 marksto1 Filter::Simple::Compile
01:44 marksto1 is now known as markstos_
01:44 merlyn that' it!
01:44 markstos_ I haven't used it, but I remembered that it existed.
01:47 TreyHarris I thought you were talking about Inline::Module
01:47 merlyn nope
01:47 merlyn oh, but that's interesting too
02:40 audreyt suddenly, http://perl6now.com/ becomes very relevant.
02:40 lambdabot Title: "Perl 6 Now"
02:41 audreyt as does http://search.cpan.org/~swalters/ and http://search.cpan.org/~abergman/ and http://search.cpan.org/~chocolate/ .
02:41 lambdabot Title: "Scott Walters - search.cpan.org"
02:48 ingy bleh
02:48 ingy bring me your tired and weary
02:48 ingy and I will call them Ingy
02:49 stevan do we get umlauts as well?
02:49 ingy stevan!
02:49 stevan ingy!
02:49 nothingmuch stevan!
02:49 ingy that used up all my remaining energy
02:50 ingy noth...!in.,,
02:50 ingy bleh
02:52 * stevan refills nothingmuch's ritalin drip
02:53 stevan actually I think ingy needs it more
02:53 nothingmuch more ritalin tomorrow
02:53 ingy huh, there's an idea
02:54 ingy I wonder if a gram of ritalin would kill you
02:54 stevan I am getting sleepy listening to nothingmuch yawn all the time
02:54 obra heh
02:54 stevan ingy: ever meet an old meth addict?
02:54 amnesiac joined perl6
02:54 ingy where is nuffin?
02:54 ingy stevan: no
02:55 stevan ingy: yeah, they tend to not last very long,.. very ugly drug,.. which is the same base as ritalin
02:55 stevan although to be honest,.. alot of times it is the crap meth is cut with which does the most damage
02:55 stevan ingy: nothingmuch is in my basement
02:56 ingy jealous
02:56 obra _I_ kept hime above ground
02:56 ingy for how long?
02:56 stevan and if you want him back,.. you need to leave a suitcase of small unmarked bills at the phonebooth around the corner
02:56 stevan obra: its much cooler in the basement,.. damn humidity
02:56 ingy how about a gram of ritalin?
02:56 stevan ingy: probably kill you
02:57 stevan explode your heart and such
02:57 ingy no, I mean for nuffin
02:57 vsoni audreyt: hi
02:57 nothingmuch .oO( i wonder what ann's going to think of all this )
02:57 stevan no,.. I need him alive
02:57 stevan if my plan is to succeed ... muhahahahaha
02:57 audreyt vsoni: greetings
02:57 nothingmuch audreyt: also ping
02:57 ingy nothingmuch: ann is behind all of this
02:57 nothingmuch audreyt: can i have permission to hack $YAML::Syck::SortKeys = sub { }
02:57 nothingmuch oh
02:58 audreyt yes you may.
02:58 vsoni audreyt: Has a big debate about :immediate............again :)
02:58 nothingmuch in that case i'm not sure what i'm going to think of her
02:58 audreyt permission is implicit
02:58 audreyt vsoni: yeah. seems chip+allison are reserving it "for unknown future use"
02:58 nothingmuch audreyt: also, how do i make it pack more nicely when it dumps?
02:58 audreyt vsoni: so I think maybe hack in .loadlib?
02:58 audreyt vsoni: and leave :immediate alone without special handler
02:58 audreyt after all, with .loadlib, nobody in the current language/ tree has a reason to use :immediate
02:58 audreyt so we can just let it bitrot.
02:59 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 71.234.68.135 pasted "YAML prettier than YAML::Syck" (26 lines, 607B) at http://sial.org/pbot/18337
02:59 ingy obra: are you in town for wikimania?
02:59 nothingmuch audreyt: the nopaste explains what I meant
02:59 obra ingy: where/when?
02:59 audreyt i.e. ".loadlib 'foo'" just sugar for ".sub anon :immediate ; loadlib 'foo' ; .end"
02:59 vsoni audreyt: what needs to happen in loadlib
02:59 audreyt vsoni: see the desugaring above
02:59 ingy obra: see google for details
02:59 audreyt vsoni: grep -r :immediate languages
02:59 PerlJam audreyt: Isn't the second arg to .HLL something like what you would send to .loadlib?  WHy not just make it N optional args?
02:59 audreyt vsoni: it gives you all the current use cases
02:59 nothingmuch obra: it's next to you
02:59 nothingmuch ini august
03:00 audreyt PerlJam: sure, that works too, one-at-a-line works too
03:00 ingy Cambridge Aug 4-6
03:00 nothingmuch next to you == walking distance
03:00 obra http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page comes up blank here :(
03:00 audreyt the analogy is that we have people writing BEGIN{require} over and over again
03:00 obra but cool.
03:00 obra yeah. I should be here
03:00 audreyt and we want to introduce "use"
03:00 audreyt and "use" is one per line
03:00 audreyt but I'm fine either way
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03:01 PerlJam audreyt: all of the uses look like it's used approximately once per compilation unit.
03:01 nothingmuch is why generally on freenode?
03:01 audreyt PerlJam: yeah, so one-per-line.
03:01 vsoni audreyt: will look into that
03:02 audreyt PerlJam: my argument was really just "use" doesn't deserve "BEGIN{rm-rf}", but if it's reserved for future purpose, I can just advice sandboxing on it, and the rest is up to @allison
03:02 vsoni audryet: or will take care of it my rewrite      ;D)
03:02 audreyt vsoni: cool, yay :D
03:02 audreyt vsoni++
03:02 vsoni audreyt: I am just kidding...I need to run it by Allison and Chip
03:03 audreyt vsoni: they both said okay for .loadlib
03:03 vsoni audreyt: ok
03:03 audreyt on the RT ticket
03:03 audreyt so that's a go-ahead
03:03 PerlJam vsoni: Have I mentioned to you before that you should have "ack" installed?
03:03 vsoni ParlJam whats ack
03:03 PerlJam vsoni: it's a smarter grep.
03:04 vsoni PerlJam where could i get it
03:04 nothingmuch cpan
03:04 audreyt cpan
03:04 nothingmuch install App::Aclk
03:04 PerlJam vsoni: for instance,  ack --parrot :immediate  will tell you all of the instances of :immediate in any parrot source files beneath the current dir.
03:04 nothingmuch tr/l/d
03:04 PerlJam vsoni: as nothingmuch is trying to say ... install App::Ack  :-)
03:05 vsoni PerlJam: Its installing...thanx
03:05 svnbot6 r11465 | Ivan_A_Frey++ | M    TASKS
03:05 nothingmuch audreyt: did you look at the nopaste?
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03:07 audreyt nothingmuch: yes, saw that
03:07 nothingmuch do you know how i could fix it?
03:07 audreyt very carefully
03:07 nothingmuch boilerplate
03:08 SamB boil your boilerplate!
03:08 audreyt line 574 perl_syck.h perhaps
03:08 audreyt not sure
03:08 audreyt you want to ask why? you have to ask why!
03:08 audreyt ("why the lucky stiff", that is.)
03:09 audreyt mm boil your scratchpads
03:09 nothingmuch =)
03:10 nothingmuch boil your scraps and serve on plate
03:10 nothingmuch a.k.a veggie pizza
03:10 nothingmuch i think you are unintentionally an eco head
03:11 nothingmuch because your plates are bio degradable
03:11 audreyt nothingmuch: so, you are supposed to feel a bit tired and can sleep soundly at this hour :)
03:12 nothingmuch yhes
03:12 nothingmuch i have been so for ~30 mins
03:12 nothingmuch maybe a little more
03:13 audreyt don't fight it; just sleep
03:13 nothingmuch not fighting it
03:13 audreyt fighting it will lead to commit-at-sleep syndrome
03:13 nothingmuch i don't feel "ready" yet
03:13 nothingmuch when it's time to sleep i will sleep
03:13 audreyt 'k
03:13 nothingmuch == soon
03:17 nothingmuch meh
03:17 nothingmuch syck docs few
03:22 nothingmuch audreyt: should plain refs be !!perl/ref: or !!perl/ref
03:24 audreyt nothingmuch: whatever YAML.pm does
03:25 nothingmuch ick
03:25 nothingmuch it uses trailing :
03:25 nothingmuch but that's not what the pyaml wiki said
03:26 audreyt ingy: purr?
03:27 kanru joined perl6
03:27 nothingmuch anyway, turns out i forgot to add the test i wrote
03:27 nothingmuch and once i change ref: to ref in perl_syck and ! to !! in the test it passes
03:32 nothingmuch ingy: ping
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04:13 nothingmuch audreyt: i'm going to rely on my memory
04:13 nothingmuch because i trust it more than ingy's
04:14 nothingmuch and commit
04:14 nothingmuch it's consistent with the other emissions
04:14 nothingmuch !perl/array etc
04:14 nothingmuch err
04:14 nothingmuch the other parsings
04:14 audreyt just go ahead
04:14 audreyt and let ingy know
04:14 audreyt I've just released Syck 0.62
04:14 audreyt so trunk is safe to checkin
04:14 nothingmuch of course, this is a special case because aside from !scalar which is always blessed it';s the only one that's ever emitted as a type
04:15 audreyt (you broke pretty much all non-GCC compilers btw)
04:15 audreyt by using statement-level instead of block-beginning declarators
04:15 audreyt { expression; expression; char *x = expression; ... }
04:15 nothingmuch oops ;-)
04:15 nothingmuch i can only cargo cult gcc
04:16 audreyt I know; I'm on the same boat. but try -Wall for once :)
04:16 nothingmuch is that the good version or the bad version?
04:16 audreyt you can turn -Wall on in Makefile.PL
04:16 nothingmuch how do i do that?
04:16 nothingmuch okay
04:16 audreyt optimizer_flags
04:16 audreyt anyway, I gotta sleep
04:16 audreyt see ya tomorrow!
04:16 * nothingmuch sleeps too
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10:08 svnbot6 r11466 | agentz++ | added myself to AUTHORS although i haven't done anything useful yet :P
10:39 clkao nothingmuch: i am not seeing my diag() being captured if the test is ok
10:41 xerox /AWAY /AWAY
10:41 xerox Ops.
10:41 Bleadof right
10:41 gaal clkao: are you going through yaml_harness?
10:41 gaal clkao: if so, is it in the yaml?
10:41 clkao gaal: no, i have other use of that
10:41 gaal clkao: I understand
10:42 clkao i am just dumping the structure from ttm
10:42 gaal just trying to pinpiont the problem
10:42 gaal ACK
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10:57 gaal mugwump: I doubt you can have a role and a class with the same name, because they are both packages underlyingly, and it's the package that has a name.
10:58 gaal but then, that's based on the prospective implementation, which may be wrong :)
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11:51 gaal clkao: does t/comprehensive.t pass for you?
11:52 Yaakov_ is now known as Yaakov
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12:05 clkao gaal: which distribution?
12:08 Muixirt joined perl6
12:08 xerox pugs uses PArrows?
12:08 szbalint joined perl6
12:29 gaal clkao: TTM
12:29 clkao gaal: it should. let me look at it
12:29 clkao because i didn't force install it
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12:36 xerox gaal: your licensing is nuts.
12:37 gaal xerox: what license do you refer to?
12:37 xerox D&R :)
12:38 gaal umm.. what?
12:38 xerox http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project/Source/index.html/pugs/checkout/third-party/HsSyck/syck/COPYING?rev=10175
12:38 gaal ahhhh
12:39 gaal that's why's stuff, we just rebundle it.
12:40 gaal xerox: you do have the option of not choosing that license you know :)
12:42 * xerox chuckles
12:48 gaal audreyt: the other night I noticed we have a Show instance for (a->b). do you remember where we use it? probably just for some debugging session right?
12:49 gaal (well, Typeable a, Typeable b => a -> b, of course)
12:52 xerox Maybe it is like lambdabot's ShowQ.
12:53 gaal xerox: demo?
12:53 Odin- joined perl6
12:53 xerox What?
12:54 gaal I'm not familiar with that. can you demo?
12:54 xerox > chr
12:54 lambdabot <Int -> Char>
12:55 gaal xerox: oh, nice, though in that case the user can just do @t
12:55 gaal err, @typew
12:55 gaal s/w// I can't type :(
12:55 xerox ?type (+)
12:55 lambdabot forall a. (Num a) => a -> a -> a
12:55 xerox > (+)
12:55 lambdabot Add a type signature
12:55 xerox %)
12:55 gaal urp!
12:55 gaal > (+) ::Int-> Int
12:55 lambdabot   Expecting a function type, but found `Int'
12:55 lambdabot   Expected type: Int -> I...
12:55 gaal heh
12:56 bpphillips joined perl6
12:56 gaal > (+) :: (Int-> Int)
12:56 lambdabot   Expecting a function type, but found `Int'
12:56 lambdabot   Expected type: Int -> I...
12:56 xerox > id :: () -> () -- Specializing works.
12:56 lambdabot <() -> ()>
12:56 xerox (+) takes two nums and returns another one.
12:57 gaal xerox: no doubt it was added for some sort of runtime error message, yes, I was just curious where
12:57 gaal doh, of course
12:57 gaal > map
12:57 lambdabot Add a type signature
12:57 xerox > (+) :: Int -> Int -> Int
12:57 lambdabot <Int -> Int -> Int>
12:58 xerox > map :: (Int -> Char) -> [Int] -> [Char]
12:58 lambdabot <(Int -> Char) -> [Int] -> [Char]>
12:58 gaal up to what arity was this ShowQ added?
12:59 gaal > .
12:59 lambdabot Parse error
12:59 gaal > (.)
12:59 lambdabot Add a type signature
12:59 gaal grrr
13:00 gaal anyway, it's a pity this can't handle typeclasses directly.
13:01 xerox Every arity.
13:01 gaal I bet there's a Good Reason why that's hard
13:01 xerox map is such an example.
13:01 gaal xerox: well, they could have added intsances just up to arity four or something.
13:01 xerox Its type is of the form a -> b -> c.
13:01 gaal how is it done for all arities?
13:02 xerox Which reads a -> (b -> c), which in turn is of the form a -> d; for which there is the instance.
13:02 xerox That is, because (->) is right-associative.
13:02 gaal ah, yes. cool.
13:02 xerox :D
13:04 xerox > (>>>) :: (Arrow (~>)) => (a ~> b) -> (b ~> c) -> (a ~> c)
13:04 lambdabot Parse error
13:04 xerox Awww.
13:05 gaal @type (>>>)
13:05 lambdabot forall (a :: * -> * -> *) d b c. (Arrow a) => a b c -> a c d -> a b d
13:05 xerox ?twww.
13:05 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
13:05 xerox ?t (>>>) :: (Arrow (~>)) => (a ~> b) -> (b ~> c) -> (a ~> c)
13:05 lambdabot Maybe you meant: tell time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc topic-tail topic-tell type . v
13:05 xerox ?type (>>>) :: (Arrow (~>)) => (a ~> b) -> (b ~> c) -> (a ~> c)
13:05 lambdabot (Arrow (~>)) => (a ~> b) -> (b ~> c) -> (a ~> c) :: forall (~> :: * -> * -> *) a b c. (Arrow ~>) => ~> a b -> ~> b c -> ~> a c
13:05 xerox It was right, at least.
13:05 gaal what's the difference between ?type and @type?
13:05 xerox Oh, it's just that ShowQ doesn't parse constraints.
13:06 xerox There is no difference.
13:06 * gaal hasn't studied lambdabot carefully
13:06 xerox ?version
13:06 lambdabot lambdabot 4p23, GHC 6.5 (OpenBSD i386 )
13:06 lambdabot darcs get http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/lambdabot
13:06 xerox Get it on your computer, it's *so* handy.
13:06 ivanfrey joined perl6
13:06 gaal xerox: I have it somewhere, I was going to add a pugs evaluator to it
13:06 xerox Go for it!
13:07 gaal but got inevitable sidetracked :)
13:07 gaal s/ly/ly/
13:07 xerox (You need latest fps for sure.)
13:07 gaal grrr
13:07 xerox heh heh
13:07 xerox Type slowly.
13:07 gaal "read before hitting enter" should also work.
13:08 gaal anyway, I'd better get back to work.
13:09 xerox What are you working on?
13:09 gaal getting paid
13:09 xerox Sensible work.
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13:16 gaal xeox: heh sorry, didn't mean to be snub - it's $work work, not Perl or Haskell related.
13:23 ivanfrey Just ran a smoke test. I was able to shave 20 min. off the last run.
13:26 ivanfrey I tried to run it overnight but the powerbook went to sleep in the middle of it.
13:32 scw clkao: about r10993, IIRC, ':p' in perl 6 is translated into 'p' => 0
13:32 svnbot6 r11467 | ajs++ | a first pass at pack, which seems to play nice with the Perl 6 sense of strings, and yet is not TOO hard to use
13:33 clkao scw: really?
13:33 scw clkao: And about why it makes MiniPerl6 work, since I checked the value in maybe Pugs::Emitter::Rule::Perl5
13:34 scw clkao: oh, no, should it be 1?
13:34 clkao i thought it should be 1
13:35 scw ya, I just think of audrey's "since write nothing means 0"
13:35 scw so now I have to find where did I check the value :(
13:35 clkao i think 0 is :!p
13:36 scw look like something appeared when I didn't take attension on Perl 6 :p
13:36 clkao where have you been
13:36 daxim joined perl6
13:37 scw just overwhelmed by final exam and projects
13:41 fglock hi
13:41 mj41__ joined perl6
13:42 scw hi!
13:45 fglock is there a system command that tells a program memory usage, like 'time' does for cpu?
13:50 clkao after the program finishes or ?
13:50 clkao tcsh time does. or you can use bsd::resource in your program
13:51 fglock clkao: I want to compare memory usage while compiling Test.pm
13:54 clkao does time -l work?
13:59 nothingmuch clkao: vvely odd
13:59 fglock the man page says 'time -v perl ...' should work, but I only get 'bash: -v: command not found'
13:59 nothingmuch clkao: look at http://search.cpan.org/src/NUFFIN/Test-TAP-Model-0.06/lib/Test/TAP/Model.pm
13:59 nothingmuch _handle_other
14:01 fglock fixed - it needs to be run with 'sudo'
14:01 nothingmuch clkao: please write a failing test
14:02 nothingmuch i'm expandinig this a bit: http://search.cpan.org/src/NUFFIN/Test-TAP-Model-0.06/t/basic.t
14:06 clkao k later
14:06 clkao fglock: \time
14:09 nothingmuch clkao:
14:10 nothingmuch clkao: i just added more passing tests
14:10 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Test-TAP-Model/t/basic.t
14:10 nothingmuch look for ->diag
14:12 scw fglock: is Pugs::Compile::Rule used some where sensitive now?
14:12 scw fglock: I modified the rule so that the first '|' is skipped
14:12 fglock scw: it's the parser module for v6.pm
14:12 fglock scw: no problem, afaik
14:13 scw so, what should I do before commit to ensure not breaking it?
14:13 fglock try to run hello_world.pl in Pugs-Compiler-Perl6
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14:19 * scw cpan installing Module::Compile *giggle*
14:20 fglock scw: v6.pm is a sponge that absorbs half of cpan
14:22 scw does that means that I have to wait for cpan to install modules overnight?
14:22 kolibrie I tried to build pugs without embedded parrot (removed parrot from PUGS_EMBED), but the executable still executes rules when external parrot is not in the path
14:23 kolibrie must I also clear PARROT_PATH?
14:23 fglock scw: it depends on your system and bandwidth - it takes only a few minutes in ubuntu, and a few hours in windows for me
14:24 scw I work on a workstation on our department and install everything under my ~ ...
14:24 scw Maybe our admin will kick me before I complete the test :P
14:30 kolibrie yep, that worked.  I had to clear out PARROT_PATH as well as PUGS_EMBED
14:35 scw fglock: I give up testing it... committed and hope it breaks nothing
14:35 svnbot6 r11468 | scw++ | Pugs::Compiler::Rule & Pugs::Grammar::MiniPerl6
14:35 svnbot6 r11468 | scw++ |  * fix r10993
14:35 svnbot6 r11468 | scw++ |  * skip the first '|' in rules
14:35 scw also, I think you'll be able to fix whatever happens :)
14:35 fglock scw: ok - no problem!
14:39 fglock clkao: would you try compiling Test.pm again?
14:39 svnbot6 r11469 | fglock++ | v6 - optimized memory usage:
14:39 svnbot6 r11469 | fglock++ | -- compiling a single statement - 13k pages
14:39 svnbot6 r11469 | fglock++ | -- compiling Test.pm - 40k pages
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14:40 fglock bbiab
14:41 scw going home... there's a typhoon approaching Taiwan now :p hope I can get home before it rains again
14:43 kolibrie scw: good luck
14:48 fglock scw: it works fine - thanks!
14:50 clkao fglock: sure
14:51 clkao i have some data::bind weirdness
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14:56 buu Magical web irc log someplace?
14:56 nothingmuch changes topic to:  Summer of Perl | 6.2.12 released! | paste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | http://www.treehugger.com/files/th_images/paradigm.jpg
14:57 svnbot6 r11471 | clkao++ | Fix slurpy.
14:58 fglock buu: http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6
14:58 buu Thanks.
14:58 svnbot6 r11472 | clkao++ | Don't bother binding undef for now, because it sometimes segfaults. :(
15:01 svnbot6 r11473 | clkao++ | * Emit array method calls.
15:01 svnbot6 r11473 | clkao++ | * Fix while/until with pointy sub.
15:01 svnbot6 r11473 | clkao++ | * Pass statement/while.t
15:01 prefiks joined perl6
15:02 clkao fglock: PCR no worky
15:03 fglock clkao: it worked here - I'll make clean and retry
15:04 fglock still works
15:05 clkao ah, i have to make clean.
15:07 clkao fglock++ # mem usage is about 160M now
15:08 nothingmuch ingy: ping
15:08 fglock :)
15:08 nothingmuch clkao: did you see your passing test?
15:09 vel joined perl6
15:10 rzoz joined perl6
15:10 cjeris Does anybody have a moment to help me build my first pugs?  I think I'm doing something wrong wrt cygwin
15:10 cjeris Windows ghc 6.4.2, cygwin perl... typing perl Makefile.PL gives the following message a couple of times:
15:11 cjeris [NAME OF COMPONENT]: /usr/local/src/pugs/third-party/installed/packages.conf: openFile: does not exist (No such file or directory)
15:12 cjeris [sorry, replace NAME OF COMPONENT with runcompiler.exe] if I ignore that and proceed, make crashes out with a similar message later.
15:13 kolibrie cjeris: Limbic_Region is on windows and recently had to do some workaround
15:14 kolibrie cjeris: I'm not sure what it was, and he doesn't seem to be around just now
15:14 ajs WRT S03, what is a "reference type"? I thought any object would be a reference type, but Str behaves unlike a reference type in S03 WRT C<===> (e.g. it compares two Str values by value, not by .id)
15:14 rzoz left perl6
15:14 ajs Is that an exception or is Str not a reference type?
15:15 kolibrie I thought references were gone
15:15 PerlJam kolibrie: different usage of the word.
15:15 ajs kolibrie: as in "by reference" rather than "a reference"
15:15 cjeris kolibrie: ok, I'll drop him a line later, thanks!
15:16 clkao nothingmuch: not yet, still stuff on my stack
15:16 nothingmuch clkao: anyway, i'm declining your task since I can't reproduce
15:17 ajs If no one knows, I think I'll pose this to p6l. I think something got lost between the original plan to have a "str" type and the current "Str-only" concept.
15:17 nothingmuch IIRC there is no more str type
15:17 nothingmuch there are low level byte buffers
15:17 nothingmuch and Str
15:18 ajs nothingmuch: You are correct. That's what I meant. There used to be a "str", but we dropped it because of representation issues. I think S03 is still partially in the "str" mindset WRT C<===>
15:19 ajs The two solutions that I see are "Str is an exception for C<===>, and that's OK," or "S03 is wrong, C<~$s1 === ~$s2> compares by .id" ... either one is fine with me, but the ambiguity sucks
15:21 nothingmuch Str.id is just the low level buffer in some canonical encoding, i think
15:21 nothingmuch so if it compares by .id it's OK
15:21 nothingmuch since that's just string equality
15:21 ajs ... uh ... that's not good.
15:21 nothingmuch but this, of course, could be made more efficient by making === for strings special case
15:21 nothingmuch why not?
15:22 cognominal joined perl6
15:22 nothingmuch $obj.id, according to audrey is: "return any low level type that uniquely identifies this value"
15:22 ajs Because .id should be the same, if and only if the things being compared are THE SAME THING, not things that happen to have the same value under certain circumstances.
15:23 nothingmuch some people disagree
15:23 nothingmuch i personally don't cacre anymore
15:23 nothingmuch neither scheme makes sense
15:23 ajs Ok
15:23 nothingmuch in a language with mixed semantics
15:23 fglock ajs: that's only valid for containers - values are compared by value
15:24 nothingmuch isn't === supposed to be value oriented, and more DWIM in that it also recurses downwards?
15:24 ajs fglock: "containers" or "reference types"?
15:26 ajs nothingmuch: I didn't see anything about DWIMery or recursion. It's either value-to-value for value types (which I presume to mean unboxed objects) or .id-to-.id for reference types (which I presume to mean containers and objects).
15:26 fglock if you have '$a := $b' then they share the same "cell"
15:26 ajs fglock: aye
15:26 nothingmuch i always thought === was deep by-value comaprison
15:26 nothingmuch e.g. [ 1, 2, 3 ] === [ 1, 2, 3 ] is true
15:26 nothingmuch but == is not since they are different containers
15:26 ajs nothingmuch: Search for === in S03
15:26 fglock that's what makes $a.id ~~ $b.id
15:27 PerlJam There's enough confusion on the subject here, that someone should probably summarize and send a message to p6l
15:27 nothingmuch ughhhhhhhh
15:27 ajs PerlJam: I'm composing the mail now
15:27 nothingmuch we already have that broken behavior with ==
15:27 nothingmuch *sigh*
15:28 nothingmuch acomparing reference deeply is still going to stay a few characters harder than it should be
15:28 fglock see perl5/Perl6-Container/lib/Perl6/Container/Scalar.pm
15:29 ajs nothingmuch: I understand where you're coming from and whether I agree or disagree, that wasn't really my question. I was trying to make sense of S03, not question how it might ought to have been, if I may use the plu-perfect subjunctive for a moment ;)
15:29 ajs fglock: Wilco
15:29 nothingmuch yeah, i'm just complaining
15:29 nothingmuch not to you
15:29 nothingmuch but in general
15:31 Jedai joined perl6
15:31 ajs nothingmuch: The other day, I was writing about Perl 6 on a talk page on Wikipedia. I pointed out that everyone involved in P6 could write a book of rants about the process if they had the time, but that's just the nature of a huge, ambitious project ;-)
15:31 nothingmuch ajs: the reason i'm bitching is that i bitched a lot before === came to be
15:32 nothingmuch and i thought that === resolved the issues i raised
15:32 nothingmuch so i ticked that off in my list
15:32 ajs nothingmuch: ah... yeah, I think I have some vague memory of that thread.
15:32 nothingmuch i thinik it's going to introduce bad coding style to have too much .id everywhere
15:33 nothingmuch and i think that it's easy to do that anyway
15:33 nothingmuch otoh explaining to a newbie that @$foo === @$bar and not $foo === $bar... meh
15:33 PerlJam nothingmuch: er, what do you mean about "too much .id everywhere"
15:33 PerlJam ?
15:33 nothingmuch also, i don't think it's going to recurse
15:33 nothingmuch PerlJam: well, most of my Perl code deals with values
15:34 nothingmuch except where it's very explicit about refaddr
15:34 nothingmuch all the code i've read is also like that
15:34 ajs nothingmuch: I see === as mostly an "implementation detail". Most comparisons will use ~~, == or eq
15:34 nothingmuch == and eq suck even more
15:34 nothingmuch ~~ is not equality, it's "match"
15:34 nothingmuch we need an equality checking operator that will basically be used to implement is_deeply in one line
15:34 nothingmuch Data::Compare
15:34 ajs nothingmuch: exactly, which is what most people mean when they say == or eq in Perl 5.
15:35 nothingmuch yes
15:35 nothingmuch but == and eq are *not* that for arrays
15:35 PerlJam nothingmuch: you do that by defining your own .id for the type and then using ===
15:35 nothingmuch they check derivitive data types
15:35 nothingmuch PerlJam: and that really really sucks for nested structures
15:36 nothingmuch ?eval my @foo = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); @foo
15:36 evalbot_11465 is now known as evalbot_11473
15:36 evalbot_11473 [[1, 2], 3]
15:36 nothingmuch ?eval my @foo = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); my @bar = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); @foo === @bar;
15:36 evalbot_11473 Bool::False
15:36 nothingmuch ?eval my @foo = ( 1, 2, 3 ); my @bar = ( 1, 2, 3 ); @foo === @bar;
15:36 evalbot_11473 Bool::True
15:36 nothingmuch explain that to a newbie
15:37 nothingmuch explain why it's worth anything
15:37 nothingmuch ;-)
15:37 merlyn ?eval my @inner = (1, 2); my @foo = (@inner, 3);
15:37 evalbot_11473 [1, 2, 3]
15:37 Muixirt left perl6
15:37 merlyn Hmm.  how do I get that to be a reference?
15:37 merlyn \@inner ? :)
15:37 merlyn ?eval my @inner = (1, 2); my @foo = (\@inner, 3);
15:37 evalbot_11473 [[1, 2], 3]
15:37 merlyn ahh, there it is
15:38 PerlJam That makes it a Capture  :)
15:38 cognominal ?eval my @foo = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); my @bar = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); @foo == @bar;
15:38 merlyn ?eval my @inner = (1, 2); my @foo = (\@inner, 3); my @bar = (\@inner, 3); @foo === @bar;
15:38 evalbot_11473 Bool::False
15:38 merlyn hmm.  why is that false?
15:38 merlyn ahh, thinking p5 again
15:38 merlyn ?eval my @inner = (1, 2); my $ref = @inner; my @foo = ($ref, 3); @foo === @bar;
15:38 PerlJam merlyn: for the same reason  [1,2] === [1,2] is false
15:38 evalbot_11473 Error: Undeclared variable: "@bar"
15:38 merlyn ?eval my @inner = (1, 2); my $ref = @inner; my @foo = ($ref, 3);
15:38 evalbot_11473 [[1, 2], 3]
15:38 cognominal ?eval my @foo = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); my @bar = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); @foo === @bar;
15:38 evalbot_11473 Bool::False
15:39 merlyn ?eval my @inner = (1, 2); my $ref = @inner; my @foo = ($ref, 3); my @bar = ($ref, 3); @foo === @bar;
15:39 evalbot_11473 Bool::False
15:39 cognominal oops
15:39 merlyn ok - that's still confused
15:39 merlyn or I'm still confused
15:39 cognominal ?eval my @foo = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); my @bar = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); @foo == @bar;
15:39 evalbot_11473 Bool::True
15:39 merlyn Oh.  @foo is not the same object as @bar
15:39 merlyn duh
15:39 weinigZZZ is now known as weinig
15:39 * merlyn needs to go back to p5 now. )
15:40 PerlJam merlyn: too much perl6 will mess you up wrt perl5.
15:40 gaal merlyn: there are no references any more. there will be Captures: http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/docs/Perl6/FAQ/Capture.pod
15:40 fglock ?eval my @inner = (1, 2); my $ref = @inner; my @foo = ($ref, 3); my @bar = ($ref, 3); @foo ~~ @bar;
15:40 evalbot_11473 Bool::True
15:40 gaal but the implementation currently is broken.
15:43 ajs Silly question 2: do all classes automatically define: C<multi submethod *infix:<as> ($self: $?CLASS) { $self }> ?
15:44 ajs That is to say, can I always .as<anscestor> ?
15:45 PerlJam That's not a silly question at all.
15:45 PerlJam unfortunately for you, I don't have an answer :)
15:46 ajs PerlJam: heh
15:46 PerlJam Wait for TimToady or ask on p6l
15:46 svnbot6 r11474 | fglock++ | v6 - ChangeLog update
15:46 ajs PerlJam: Will do. Just trying not to ask leading questions on p6l if a quick answer here will do.
15:49 PerlJam ajs: re your latest email to p6l ... stop apologizing!  :-)   If you can't understand it or find an answer to your question, odds are other people would have the same problem if they thought about it
15:49 ajs Will try... still unsure of self
15:49 ajs Was slacking so long...
15:50 PerlJam Well, ajs++ for the work
15:50 PerlJam and again ajs++
15:50 ajs Thanks
15:50 PerlJam (will karms substitute for confidence? :)
15:50 PerlJam er, s/karms/karma/
15:50 Jedai ?eval my @foo = ( [ 1, 4 ], 3 ); my @bar = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); @foo == @bar;
15:50 evalbot_11473 is now known as evalbot_11474
15:50 evalbot_11474 Bool::True
15:51 ajs PerlJam: I suppose it's the same as a pay raise substituting for self-respect, right ;-)
15:51 Jedai ?eval my @foo = ( [ 1, 4 ], 3 ); my @bar = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); @foo ~~ @bar;
15:51 evalbot_11474 Bool::False
15:52 Jedai ?eval my @foo = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); my @bar = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); @foo ~~ @bar;
15:52 evalbot_11474 Bool::True
15:53 Jedai I'm unsure why we would need "===" if ~~ does the job better ?
15:53 PerlJam ajs: you just reminded me of this guy I know who kept getting pay raises because the boss thought that would motivate him to work harder.  The only problem was that the guy was already working 110% and throwing more money at him isn't going to give him more hours in the day or somehow magically make the work easier
15:54 PerlJam Jedai: they do different things.  ~~ does the "deep comparison" that nothingmuch was talking about  (I think), and === does an identity comparison.
15:54 svnbot6 r11475 | clkao++ | * Parse :foo(1)
15:54 svnbot6 r11475 | clkao++ | * Pass 02-test-pm/2-force_todo.
15:54 Jedai "==" is stupid that's ok, "~~" is very smart and that can have unexpected side-effect, but "===" needs to be a little bit smarter in my opinion
15:55 Jedai A "is_deeply" operator is really needed while I don't really when I would use the current "==="
15:55 PerlJam hmm. and I think I need to relook at S03 too because I just realized what's been bothering me about === is that I thought it was spelt =:=
15:56 Jedai ?eval 2 =:= 3
15:56 evalbot_11474 Bool::False
15:56 Jedai ?eval 2 =:= 2
15:56 clkao fglock: can you make [ 1, 4 ] parse? ;)
15:56 evalbot_11474 Bool::True
15:56 ajs Jedai: I expect that the single major use of === is to implement ==, eq and ~~
15:56 PerlJam Hrm.
15:56 svnbot6 r11476 | fglock++ | v6 - changelogging for 0.007
15:57 Jedai ?eval my ($i, $j) = (1, 2); ($i + 1) =:= $j;
15:57 PerlJam I'm not sure that there's enough of a difference between === and =:=
15:57 evalbot_11474 Bool::True
15:57 Jedai ?eval my ($i, $j) = (1, 2); ($i + 1) === $j;
15:57 evalbot_11474 is now known as evalbot_11476
15:57 evalbot_11476 Bool::True
15:57 ajs That is: our bool multi infix:<==> (int $a, int $b) { $a === $b }
15:57 Jedai ?eval my ($i, $j) = (1, 2); ($i + 1) == $j;
15:57 evalbot_11476 Bool::True
15:57 fglock clkao: added to first item in TODO :)
15:58 ajs And the same for num, etc.
15:58 PerlJam or, rather === tries to be a magical =:= or something
15:58 Jedai ?eval my @foo = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); my @bar = ( [ 1, 2 ], 3 ); @foo =:= @bar;
15:58 evalbot_11476 Bool::False
15:58 svnbot6 r11477 | fglock++ | v6 - TODO update
15:58 PerlJam Jedai: in that instance =:= is the same as ===
15:59 PerlJam They're testing the exact same things.
15:59 Jedai Ok, now I'm confused...
15:59 Jedai ?eval "2" =:= 2;
15:59 clkao fglock: also !0 is right, but !(0) is parsed as a call
15:59 evalbot_11476 Bool::False
15:59 clkao not op
15:59 Jedai Ok...
15:59 clkao is that an easy fix?
16:00 PerlJam Assuming .id things are stringy,   @foo =:= @bar is the same as @foo.id eq @bar.id
16:00 ajs PerlJam: I think the key difference between === and =:= is this bit in S03 for =:=: "The binding fails if the type of the variable being bound is sufficiently inconsistent with the type of the current declaration."
16:00 ajs Note that === is ALWAYS false if the types differ
16:01 fglock clkao: I think !(0) is a call
16:01 Jedai ?eval my @foo = ( 1, 3 ); my @bar = ( 1, 3 ); @foo =:= @bar;
16:01 evalbot_11476 Bool::True
16:01 PerlJam ajs: that sentenxt you quote is referencig := and ::=.  It says nothing about =:=
16:01 clkao ?eval !(Bool::False)
16:01 evalbot_11476 Bool::True
16:01 SamB ?eval !(0)
16:01 evalbot_11476 Bool::True
16:01 PerlJam ajs: but, I see what you're saying.
16:01 ajs You're right. Ignore that statement on my part
16:01 nothingmuch PerlJam: no, ~~ will also match [ 1, 2, 3 ] with [ { 1 }, { 1 }, { 1 } ]
16:01 nothingmuch it's matching
16:01 nothingmuch the right side is an expression
16:02 nothingmuch the left side is a value
16:02 PerlJam ajs:  @foo =:= $bar could be true if both of their .id methods return the same thing even if their types are radically different.
16:02 nothingmuch my point is that =:= already has .id ish semantics
16:03 nothingmuch ?eval [ 1, 2, 3 ].id
16:03 evalbot_11476 is now known as evalbot_11477
16:03 evalbot_11477 undef
16:03 nothingmuch ?eval "foo".id
16:03 evalbot_11477 undef
16:03 nothingmuch ?eval 1.id
16:03 nothingmuch hmm
16:03 evalbot_11477 undef
16:03 nothingmuch nevermind that then
16:03 PerlJam nothingmuch: well, I'm with you then.   I don't get why we have ~~ === and =:=
16:03 nothingmuch i think that === is confusingly overlapping with =:=
16:03 PerlJam indeed!
16:03 ajs I don't think =:= checks the .id... at least not in spirit. I would think that it is actually grovelling the namespace
16:03 nothingmuch =:= should be "is it the same data, in that when i change one side the other side will change with it"
16:03 ajs My jogging buddy just showed up. Must run! Ciao!
16:03 nothingmuch === should be "are these the same values?", but deeply
16:04 nothingmuch and ~~ should be "does the right hand side describe the left hand side"
16:04 PerlJam ajs: oh, perhaps you're right.  =:= is just "do these two things occupy the same slot"
16:04 nothingmuch where describe is the lovely ~~ semantics, but almost always unrelated to equality
16:04 SamB ?eval "foo".id
16:04 evalbot_11477 undef
16:04 nothingmuch see you ajs
16:04 SamB ?eval {}.id
16:04 evalbot_11477 undef
16:04 SamB what took so long?
16:05 SamB and why are all these ids coming out as undef?
16:05 nothingmuch because pugs is broken ;-)
16:05 nothingmuch because pugs is broken ;-)
16:05 SamB ?eval Pugs.id
16:05 evalbot_11477 Error: No such sub: "&Pugs"
16:05 SamB oh, nice
16:05 SamB something other than undef...
16:06 SamB ?eval $Pugs.id
16:06 PerlJam Maybe we can corner TimToady today until we get a resolution on these comparison operators ;)
16:06 evalbot_11477 Error: Undeclared variable: "$Pugs"
16:06 nothingmuch TimToady: ping
16:06 SamB hmm, maybe I should read some documentation at some point
16:06 * nothingmuch will try to write up a small set of questions
16:06 PerlJam nothingmuch++ good idea
16:09 SamB ?eval {}.crazy
16:09 evalbot_11477 Error: No such method in class Hash: "&crazy"
16:09 svnbot6 r11478 | clkao++ | * Workaround !(0) parse result.
16:09 svnbot6 r11478 | clkao++ | * Kill ';' from eval.
16:09 svnbot6 r11479 | fglock++ | v6 - updated TODO, MANIFEST - this is v6 0.007 in CPAN
16:09 SamB okay, so there is *some* support for .id somewhere...
16:09 fglock lunch &
16:11 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 71.234.68.135 pasted "===, =:= questions" (23 lines, 1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18346
16:11 nothingmuch PerlJam: please review
16:11 clkao fglock: need to support interpolation in double quote
16:13 PerlJam nothingmuch: bueno.
16:13 nothingmuch p6l?
16:13 PerlJam The last time this came up I think someone mentioned the idea of modifiers on operators, I don't remember what the general concensus was on that though
16:13 nothingmuch *gag* *cough* *barf*
16:14 PerlJam well, that's a one opinion  :)
16:21 FurnaceBoy joined perl6
16:23 kolibrie audreyt: I am trying to get <ws> overriding to work, picking up where I left off at the Chicago hackathon, but I cannot get it to work anywhere
16:23 pasteling "kolibrie" at 66.239.158.2 pasted "overriding <ws>" (23 lines, 502B) at http://sial.org/pbot/18347
16:25 nothingmuch so
16:25 nothingmuch posted, a bit more details were added
16:25 nothingmuch i hope i didn't err on the side of verbosity
16:26 penk joined perl6
16:31 kolibrie fglock: after I get this working under pugs/parrot, I will of course want it to work under v6.pm
16:34 Jedai ?eval "2" =:= 2
16:34 evalbot_11477 is now known as evalbot_11479
16:34 evalbot_11479 Bool::False
16:34 Jedai ?eval "2" === 2
16:34 evalbot_11479 Bool::False
16:34 Jedai ?eval "2" == 2
16:34 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:34 swaroop joined perl6
16:35 Jedai So we in fact have a equal method for Int and Str as ops "==" and "eq"
16:36 Jedai and =:= and === work without implicit conversions
16:36 nothingmuch i think so
16:36 nothingmuch i just posted on p6l on this just now
16:36 nothingmuch p[lease see if it makes sense
16:37 Jedai I read it, it makes sense (to me at least ;) )
16:37 nothingmuch on your == / eq thing?
16:37 nothingmuch as i see it === is never the same for different types
16:37 nothingmuch and eq is just "force it into Str first, then run ==="
16:38 Jedai exact
16:38 nothingmuch and == is the same but Num
16:38 nothingmuch okay
16:38 nothingmuch =)
16:38 Jedai so === is higher level...
16:38 nothingmuch right now it isn't ;-)
16:38 nothingmuch ?eval "2" === "2"
16:38 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:38 Jedai It should :-(
16:38 nothingmuch it works everything but references
16:39 nothingmuch ?eval (1, 2, 3) === (1, 2, 3)
16:39 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:39 nothingmuch ?eval [1, 2, 3] === [1, 2, 3]
16:39 nothingmuch *BLAM
16:39 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:39 nothingmuch *
16:39 nothingmuch oh
16:39 nothingmuch shit
16:39 nothingmuch ?eval ([1, 2], 3) === ([1, 2], 3)
16:39 evalbot_11479 Bool::False
16:39 nothingmuch that's even more confusing
16:39 nothingmuch ===--
16:40 Jedai ?eval my $foo = [ 1, 3 ]; my $bar = [ 1, 3 ]; $foo =:= $bar;
16:40 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:40 Jedai Broken...
16:40 nothingmuch EEIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
16:40 nothingmuch let's make a list of broken behaviors
16:41 Jedai I'm quite sure =:= should give False here o_O
16:41 nothingmuch do you have subethaedit?
16:42 Jedai no ?
16:42 Jedai Why ?
16:42 nothingmuch so that we can ediut the file together
16:42 nothingmuch ?eval "42" === 42
16:42 evalbot_11479 Bool::False
16:42 nothingmuch ?eval "42" === "42"
16:42 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:43 Jedai Ok, but I'm not on Mac :-(
16:43 nothingmuch ?eval " 42 " == "42.0"
16:43 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:43 nothingmuch that's OK
16:43 nothingmuch i can just share the file when I'm done
16:45 nothingmuch ?eval $foo = [ 1, 2, 3]; $foo =:= $foo
16:45 evalbot_11479 Error: Undeclared variable: "$foo"
16:45 nothingmuch ?Eval [ 1, 2, 3 ] === [ 1 .. 3 ]
16:45 nothingmuch ?eval my $foo = [ 1, 2, 3]; $foo =:= $foo
16:45 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:45 nothingmuch ?val [ 1, 2, 3 ] === [ 1 .. 3 ]
16:46 frederico joined perl6
16:46 Jedai ?eval " 42 " === "42"
16:46 nothingmuch $foo = [ 1, 2, 3 ]; $bar = $foo; $bar =:= $foo
16:46 evalbot_11479 Bool::False
16:46 nothingmuch ?eval $foo = [ 1, 2, 3 ]; $bar = $foo; $bar =:= $foo
16:47 evalbot_11479 Error: Undeclared variable: "$foo"
16:47 nothingmuch ?eval my $foo = [ 1, 2, 3 ]; my $bar = $foo; $bar =:= $foo
16:47 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:47 nothingmuch ?eval my $foo = [ 1, 2, 3 ]; my $bar := $foo; $bar =:= $foo
16:47 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:47 Jedai ?eval [ 1, 2, 3 ] === [ 1 .. 3 ]
16:47 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:48 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 71.234.68.135 pasted "broken ops" (29 lines, 1.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18350
16:48 Jedai ?eval my @foo = (1, 2, 3); my @bar = @foo; @foo =:= @bar;
16:48 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:49 frederico joined perl6
16:49 nothingmuch that's nasty
16:51 nothingmuch ?eval my @foo = (1, 2, 3); my @bar = @foo; @foo === @bar
16:51 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:51 nothingmuch ?eval my @foo = (1, 2, 3); my @bar = @foo; @bar[1] = "moose"; @foo =:= @bar
16:51 evalbot_11479 Bool::False
16:51 Jedai So I'll add :  my @foo = (1, 2, 3); my @bar = @foo; @foo =:= @bar; - false, not the same container, BROKEN
16:51 nothingmuch yeah, i added that =)
16:51 Jedai Ok
16:52 nothingmuch i added an inspired === test
16:52 nothingmuch and the last thing i ?eval'd
16:52 Jedai ?eval my @foo = (1, 2, 3); my @bar = @foo; @foo[0] = 4; @foo.say; @bar.say;
16:52 evalbot_11479 OUTPUT[423 123 ] Bool::True
16:52 cjeris ?eval [1, 2, 3] === [1, 2, 3]
16:52 evalbot_11479 Bool::True
16:53 Jedai Ok..
16:53 Jedai So is Pugs optimising in intern ?
16:53 kudra joined perl6
16:53 nothingmuch it looks like it
16:53 ruoso joined perl6
16:54 Jedai Quite a good optimisation then, but the ops should account for it in this case
16:55 nothingmuch ?eval my @foo = ([1, 2], 3); my @bar = @foo; @bar === @foo
16:55 evalbot_11479 Bool::False
16:55 clkao v6 passes 147 more tests!
16:56 Jedai Wow ! :-)
16:56 nothingmuch clka++
16:56 nothingmuch fglock++
16:56 nothingmuch clkao++
16:56 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 71.234.68.135 pasted "broken ops" (36 lines, 1.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18351
16:56 nothingmuch this is the new version
16:56 nothingmuch please see if it's missing anything
16:58 fglock clkao: wow!
16:59 Jedai It seems complete
17:00 Jedai It would be interesting to know if Pugs optimisation does not arise from the Haskell backend
17:00 nothingmuch sent
17:00 nothingmuch pugs may be cheating by asking GHC for the unsafe pointer to operation
17:01 Jedai (as OCaml has this kind of quirk I guess Haskell may be the one to blame)
17:01 nothingmuch and using that as internal id for refs
17:01 nothingmuch in which case they are actually bound to the same point in memory, until pugs tries to change it
17:01 fglock kolibrie: PCR have problems mixing rule/regex in the same statement - I'm working on it on my "free time" :)
17:01 Jedai Yes, that seems likely as this kind of optimisation is easy and implemented in functionnal programming
17:01 nothingmuch anyway, i need to go take a shower and stuff
17:02 Jedai Ok, see you later :-)
17:02 kolibrie fglock: I'm only finally getting back to this example I started two weeks ago
17:03 kolibrie time seems always short
17:03 merlyn I'm thinking of writing an article on Module::Compile for my next trick
17:03 merlyn then an article using p6-rules to parse my "Spew" compiler
17:03 merlyn time is indeed short
17:04 fglock merlyn: :)
17:04 broquaint Write some perl6 to adapt existing articles to perl6.
17:04 merlyn so two articles in a row that go from Inline::Spew to Spew in the p6 world
17:04 merlyn merlyn-columns: spew
17:04 grufti joined perl6
17:04 buubot Found Random sentence generator (Sep 99) at http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/LinuxMag/col04.html;  Creating an Inline language (Mar 04) at http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/LinuxMag/col57.html;  Editing files in-place (dec 98) at http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/UnixReview/col23.html;  Watching a
17:04 buubot ..logfile in an IRC channel (Feb 04) at http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/PerlJournal/col09.html;
17:04 lambdabot Title: "Watching a logfile in an IRC channel (Feb 04)"
17:04 lambdabot Title: "Random sentence generator (Sep 99)"
17:05 merlyn dueling btos
17:05 merlyn bots
17:05 fglock I've been thinking about writing a compiler which adds p6 syntax to p5 but doesn't change semantics - and is easy to install
17:07 merlyn so Module::Compile-based modules just have to return p5 code that replaces the filtered code?
17:07 fglock but that would just confuse the users
17:07 fglock merlyn: yes
17:07 merlyn and what is "use Module::Compile -base";
17:07 merlyn I don't understand the -base there
17:07 merlyn as in, undocumented. :)
17:07 mauke looks spiffy
17:07 broquaint A Spiffy-ism perhaps.
17:08 merlyn Ugh.  this uses spiffy below?
17:08 * merlyn sighs
17:10 bpphillips merlyn: I don't believe Module::Compile uses Spiffy at all, I think it is just a "Spiffy-ism"
17:11 fglock    # Handler modules can do C< use Module::Compile -base; >. Makethe source says:  # Handler modules can do C< use Module::Compile -base; >. Make  them ISA Module::Compile and get the hell out of Dodge.
17:11 fglock ugh
17:12 fglock it's the same as 'use base ...'
17:15 merlyn OK
17:15 merlyn how weird.
17:18 nothingmuch /w 26
17:18 svnbot6 r11480 | fglock++ | v6 - updated HACKING file
17:19 merlyn use Foo -base; instead of just use base Foo;
17:19 merlyn that's ... crazy
17:19 fglock left perl6
17:20 clkao fglock: i broke pair parsing. hwo do i make Pugs::Grammar::Term.pair with higher priority than the one after?
17:20 merlyn maybe I should submit a patch. :)
17:20 fglock_ joined perl6
17:20 wesle1 joined perl6
17:20 gaal fwiw, use base Foo is not strict-clean.
17:21 Daveman joined perl6
17:21 fglock_ clkao: the priority is set by longest-token
17:21 bpphillips merlyn: I think it's to differentiate between code that uses Module::Compile (like v6) vs. code that is supposed to be compiled by Module::Compile
17:21 mauke use base Foo::;
17:21 clkao fglock_: it doesn't seem so
17:22 clkao fglock_: also statement/redo kindof compiles with V6DUMPAST set
17:22 clkao but fails horribly without
17:22 clkao fglock_: see latest parsing of ':foo<bar>' :/ i broke it
17:27 fglock_ clkao: the first rule matches :a:<b> - extra colon there
17:27 elmex joined perl6
17:29 clkao fglock_: oh! but even if i kill that : it still doesnt matche
17:29 fglock_ clkao: did you commit 'redo'?
17:30 clkao fglock_: no. i made some changes to kill extra block in if/else
17:32 fglock_ :foo<bar> and :foo work for me
17:32 svnbot6 r11481 | clkao++ | DOn't emit extra level of block so redo would work.
17:32 fglock_ clkao: I'll commit my Term.pm
17:35 clkao cool
17:38 amnesiac joined perl6
17:40 clkao fglock_: that's the same change i have, but i still have :foo<bar> wrong
17:42 fglock_ clkao: I've seen the error now - fixing...
17:45 fglock_ ok
17:45 svnbot6 r11482 | fglock++ | v6 - parser fix - :foo :$foo :foo<bar>
17:47 fglock_ PCR can't merge keys yet - you have to implement all the parsing in a single place
17:51 svnbot6 r11483 | fglock++ | v6 - clean up comments in Term.pm
17:57 weinig is now known as weinig|away
18:02 fglock joined perl6
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18:11 nothingmuch merlyn: it's ingy code
18:11 nothingmuch but it actually doesn't reallyy matter
18:11 nothingmuch M::C does the job
18:13 cognominal left perl6
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18:19 cognominal joined perl6
18:25 clkao fglock: *nod* my grammar-fu is still weak ;)
18:26 clkao fglock: did you see the weird thing for statement/redo?
18:26 clkao Error in perl 6 parser: Not a SCALAR reference at lib/Pugs/Grammar/Expression.pm line 208.
18:27 clkao but it kindof works (2 tests emitted) with v6dumpast
18:28 weinig|away is now known as weinig
18:29 fglock sorry, I can't check right now
18:30 fglock I'm doing some sysadmin $work
18:36 clkao k
18:39 frederico joined perl6
18:39 svnbot6 r11484 | clkao++ | Make ~@a work.
18:43 clkao it seems v6 is still generating partial .tc file when compilation failed
18:44 xdg joined perl6
18:48 hexmode joined perl6
18:50 clkao nothingmuch: ok ttm is on my stack on
18:50 nothingmuch clkao: look for the link i sent you
18:50 nothingmuch that test passes
18:51 clkao nothingmuch: basic?
18:51 nothingmuch clkao: yes
18:52 clkao nothingmuch: i think you missed something, diag actually goes to stderr
18:52 nothingmuch oh
18:52 nothingmuch right
18:52 nothingmuch that's the harness's problem
18:53 clkao so i have to do my own print of ^#
18:53 clkao :(
18:53 nothingmuch some outputters output on stdout
18:53 nothingmuch there's a Test::Builder hack for this
18:53 nothingmuch but it should be fixed in Test::Harness::Straps
18:53 clkao is it being fixed?
18:54 nothingmuch that's Not My Problem
18:54 nothingmuch i remember it being discussed on perl-qa
18:54 nothingmuch it's probably unfixable in Test::Builder
18:54 clkao nothingmuch: can i have something post_diag like pre_diag?
18:54 nothingmuch possibly unfixable in Test::HarnesS::Straps for backwards compat reasons
18:54 nothingmuch pre_diag and post_diag?
18:54 lollan joined perl6
18:55 clkao there's already pre_diag in ->structure
18:55 clkao so diags are attached to the previous test
18:55 clkao which is actually a bit weird. because test should be covering things before you actually run the ok().
18:57 clkao nothingmuch: also, the is($a,$b) test also outputs to stderr. :/
18:57 nothingmuch pre_diag is diag before any subtests
18:57 nothingmuch diag is automatically attached to any subtest that was right before it
18:58 nothingmuch because is($a, $b) outputs the diag (in Perl 6's Test.pm) right after the ok line
18:58 nothingmuch Test::Builder is not to spec
18:58 nothingmuch because it says diag is emitted to stdout
18:58 obra Didn't it predate the spec? ;)
18:58 nothingmuch i don't remember
18:58 clkao i see.
18:58 nothingmuch but Test::More implies diag goes out to stderrr, when it doesn't
19:00 clkao nothingmuch: do you hate software?
19:01 nothingmuch clkao: very
19:03 gaal awww, crap. and it's impossible to synchronize streams.
19:03 xerox Today I saw a slick implementation of streams in Haskell-on-acid.
19:04 fglock joined perl6
19:04 nothingmuch gaal: moose
19:04 gaal nothingmuch: elk
19:05 xerox Yak.
19:06 fglock clkao: my last Compiler::Perl6 change may have broken error reporting back to v6.pm
19:06 obra gaal: we're very, very close to doing a first cpan release of chimps
19:07 gaal obra: excellent!!
19:07 obra I suspect we may want a little help to add in the hooks pugs needs to do your sexy, sexy test-linking
19:07 gaal <stevan audreyt> >>.ping
19:07 nothingmuch obra: with non HTML result formats?
19:07 obra gaal: audreyt is off to food.
19:07 obra nothingmuch: I don't actually know ;)
19:07 DaGo joined perl6
19:07 nothingmuch obra: you really want that
19:07 obra I know
19:08 obra but. what we have now is still better than what's out there for most everyone
19:08 gaal nothingmuch: what do you mean by non-HTML result formats? I mean, Dump($tap)?
19:08 obra and getting it released and getting people hacking on it and using it is more important than making it Entirely Perfect
19:08 nothingmuch gaal: yes
19:08 obra (I think this 0.001, not 1.00)
19:08 nothingmuch Test::TAP::Model was designed for that
19:09 nothingmuch obra: you know that there is smolder.sf.net
19:09 gaal obra: util/catalog_tests.pl is slightly hacky. I'd suggest, first, porting it to TTM
19:09 nothingmuch http://sf.net/projects/smolder
19:09 nothingmuch cgi app based smokeserver
19:10 nothingmuch hmm, i wonder where they got this from: http://sourceforge.net/project/screenshots.php?group_id=161136&amp;ssid=29635
19:10 nothingmuch ;-)
19:10 obra nothingmuch: no, I've never seen it
19:10 gaal also, it presupposes the small TAP position patch (basically two lines in Test::More or somewhere like that)
19:11 gaal In Perl 6, those two lines are:
19:11 gaal $Test::ALWAYS_CALLER = %*ENV<TEST_ALWAYS_CALLER>; # at module init
19:11 gaal $out = "$out <pos:$?CALLER::CALLER::POSITION>" if $Test::ALWAYS_CALLER;   # in &proclaim
19:11 * gaal looks at Test::More
19:12 kudra left perl6
19:13 gaal ok in Test::More it's delegated to Test::Builder, and is just a little more complicated, because that isn't careful about uniform callstack depths
19:14 gaal an AOPish solution would be prettiest for this :/
19:17 gaal either that, or walk up caller() filtering out stuff from /^Test/ packages, but that's kinda ugly.
19:18 gaal incidentally, TimToady++ for seeing that caller :LABEL is useful
19:21 gaal bbiab &
19:25 kolibrie would some volunteers like to test http://sial.org/pbot/18347 and tell me if any of the commented out 'schedule' rules work?
19:25 lambdabot Title: "Paste #18347 from "kolibrie" at 66.239.158.2"
19:26 kolibrie needs parrot r13061 or later
19:27 r0nny joined perl6
19:34 sahadev hello, how do fix this compilation error ?
19:34 sahadev Cannot import `Data.ByteString':
19:34 sahadev  it was found in multiple packages: pugs-fps-0.7 fps-0.7
19:34 sahadev  (imported from src/Pugs/AST/Internals/Instances.hs)
19:35 audreyt sahadev: ghc-pkg unregister fps
19:35 audreyt sudo if neccessary
19:35 xerox pugs does weird things wrt fps
19:35 audreyt xerox: Cabal is broken, more likely
19:35 audreyt :/
19:35 audreyt SyntaxNinja volunteered this workaround
19:35 xerox Aww.
19:35 audreyt but we still need a more robust solution to say "prefer this package"
19:35 xerox What does the breakage look like?
19:36 audreyt xerox: can't tell cabal to use a package.conf only
19:36 audreyt need food, will bbiab :) &
19:36 xerox ~~ enjoy
19:36 rindolf joined perl6
19:36 rindolf Hi all.
19:37 sahadev audreyt: "ghc-pkg: cannot find package fps"
19:37 sahadev and "ghc-pkg: cannot find package fps-0.7"
19:37 audreyt sahadev: sudo ghc-pkg ?
19:37 sahadev yet, "ghc-pkg list" shows fps-0.7
19:37 sahadev yes, it was with sudo
19:38 audreyt ghc-pkg unregister --user fps-0.7
19:38 sahadev ah! that did the trick
19:38 sahadev thank you
19:38 audreyt np :) &
19:39 fglock joined perl6
19:40 macroron joined perl6
19:44 stevan gaal: pong
20:00 kudra joined perl6
20:06 r0nny joined perl6
20:07 gaal hey stevan, I wanted to work some on the MOP in pugs
20:07 gaal http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/src/Pugs/MOP.hs
20:08 gaal there are a few "stevan" todos there
20:08 stevan gaal: hmm, I have no tuits today,.. but I should have some tomorrow
20:09 gaal okay, it's getting late here anyway. but let's try to moose it soon
20:11 stevan gaal: agreed
20:11 gaal yay
20:15 fglock_ joined perl6
20:22 ajs "let's try to moose it soon": Perl 6 speak for "have youre lawyer's machine call my lawyer's machine, we'll do lunch!"
20:23 cognominal left perl6
20:25 cognominal joined perl6
20:33 FurnaceBoy "have your moose call my moose"?
20:34 bpphillips left perl6
20:37 ajs FurnaceBoy: Our moose are not Herbert... we reach... oh, sorry, different decade.
20:38 FurnaceBoy well, my moose simply said, "That trick never works."
20:38 ajs *snort*
20:38 FurnaceBoy oups
20:38 FurnaceBoy wrong way round
20:39 FurnaceBoy well, my moose simply said, "watch me pull a rabbit out of a hat!"
20:39 svnbot6 r11485 | Sage++ | More parser revisions. Heredoc support is in the code, but does not work correctly (but doesn't perturb anything else either). Empty yaml now supported (i.e. /- ''/). Foreach revised and expanded, foreach my $foo (@bar) now translates to foreach @bar -> my $foo (further support may be needed, but split.t is now completely translated). Revised support for literals in multiline quoted yaml scalars. mainParse useage is now mainParse inputf
20:39 * FurnaceBoy hasn't seen the show for a long, long time...
20:40 hexmode joined perl6
20:49 FurnaceBoy_ joined perl6
20:54 kolibrie audreyt: I thought that pmichaud had made changes to PGE to get <ws> to be overridden in a grammar, but I am not seeing a commit from him during that time (parrot r13059 - r13061)
20:55 pmichaud <ws> can be overridden in a new grammar
20:55 kolibrie pmichaud: do you have recollections of that fix?
20:55 pmichaud it's been that way for a long time
20:56 kolibrie so it was just audreyt's bridge that needed to change?
20:57 kolibrie I know it worked on her laptop that night, but I can't get it to work anywhere else (feather, locally)
20:57 pmichaud I think so
20:58 gruft1 joined perl6
20:58 kolibrie pmichaud: okay.  Maybe audreyt can help
21:00 kolibrie pmichaud: by-the-way, thank you for promptly implementing <'...'> literal matches after I asked
21:00 pmichaud kolibrie: my pleasure.  In fact, when I went to look to see if any tests were there, they already existed :-)
21:00 kolibrie nice!
21:00 pmichaud kolibrie: and I've already come across a couple of cases where they were needed/useful, so it was a big win
21:06 kudra goodnight
21:08 ivanfrey Should I run smoke tests every day?
21:21 svnbot6 r11486 | clkao++ | Support default value in signature.
21:23 fglock joined perl6
21:31 fglock v6-pugs was sent to backpan
21:33 ruoso fglock, ?
21:33 fglock ruoso: hi
21:34 ruoso fglock, hi..
21:35 ruoso fglock, so v6-pugs is now v6-alpha...
21:35 fglock ruoso: yes - it makes more sense across implementations
21:36 fglock it gives a feeling of "the real thing" too :)
21:37 ruoso hehe ...
21:37 ruoso in fact v6-pugs was a bit confusing with pugs itself
21:38 clkao fglock: you didn't fix my :foo(1) parsing
21:38 clkao i was to have perl6_expression in ()
21:39 fglock clkao: I'll fix it now
21:40 clkao fglock: excellent
21:40 clkao i'd love to learn how to
21:42 svnbot6 r11487 | fglock++ | v6 - aborts code emission if there is a parser error
21:42 fglock clkao: I think it's better to move the implementation to plain rules - I'll do this first
21:43 qu1j0t3 joined perl6
21:48 svnbot6 r11488 | fglock++ | v6 - cleanup comments in Term.pm
21:51 ivanfrey joined perl6
21:52 * ruoso will use v6-alpha to write a quick latex(abntex)2txt converter
21:54 fglock ruoso: rules are not fully implemented yet
21:54 ruoso ahhh
21:54 ruoso :)
21:55 fglock but you can help :)
21:55 ruoso :)
21:55 ruoso what's missing?
21:57 FurnaceBoy_ joined perl6
21:58 fglock ruoso: I think the 'token' declaration already works - I'm not sure how well ~~ works - this is mostly in Emitter/Perl6/Perl5.pm
21:59 ruoso ok... so it can parse it already...
22:00 ruoso but the generated code is still buggy...
22:00 ruoso is it?
22:01 fglock it is untested - probably buggy
22:01 ruoso ah... ok... so first step is to write test cases...
22:02 fglock ruoso: you can reuse pugs tests - v6-alpha can run ext/Test.pm !
22:02 ruoso hmm... nice
22:03 fglock clkao: I'll check :foo(x) now
22:03 clkao fglock: yay
22:03 fglock ruoso: see t/08-test.t
22:04 fglock oops - I killed a terminal and it closed my editor
22:04 svnbot6 r11489 | fglock++ | v6 - rewrite of 'pair' parser using rules
22:04 ruoso heh
22:04 fglock clkao: this is not :foo(x) yet
22:07 * ruoso prays for a better bandwidth
22:11 fglock clkao: please try again
22:11 svnbot6 r11490 | fglock++ | v6 - more pair parsing - ':foo<bar>; :$foo; :foo; :foo(1+1);'
22:11 svnbot6 r11490 | fglock++ | { 'foo' => 'bar' };
22:11 svnbot6 r11490 | fglock++ | { 'foo' => $foo };
22:11 svnbot6 r11490 | fglock++ | { 'foo' => 1 };
22:11 svnbot6 r11490 | fglock++ | { 'foo' => 1 + 1 };
22:11 clkao yey
22:12 wolverian o vey!
22:12 fglock clkao: now I can guide you through the code - see Term.pm #229
22:13 clkao fglock: now that looks easy ;)
22:14 fglock if ' :foo{"bar"} valid syntax too?
22:15 clkao i think so
22:15 clkao :infix{"+"}
22:15 clkao :infix<+>
22:15 clkao fglock: also there are ony two tests hanging compiling
22:16 clkao subroutine / subroutine and multidimension
22:17 fglock mm - it's a hash deref - not a pair constructor
22:18 fglock I'm not sure how it works
22:20 clkao (!)
22:20 svnbot6 r11491 | clkao++ | $*PID & $*EXECUTABLE_NAME.
22:20 clkao t/Dialects/perlego/ passes
22:21 fglock t/subroutines/subroutine.t parsefails, but doesn't hang
22:21 clkao oh ok. maybe it got fixed
22:22 clkao fglock: can you check my signature default param rules, see if i am crazy and using something redundant?
22:23 fglock clkao: it look ok
22:23 fglock looks
22:24 clkao thanks
22:24 fglock maybe it should allow a <ws> after '='
22:24 clkao i tried with a space and it seems to work
22:24 clkao so i am bit confused about the ws
22:25 fglock ok - Expression.pm removes extra ws - no problem
22:26 fglock line #81
22:30 cjeris left perl6
22:32 fglock what does '{ @;AoA }' means in t/subroutines/multidimensional_arglists.t ?
22:33 prefiks left perl6
22:33 fglock is '@;AoA' a single identifier?
22:34 fglock I'll parse it as 'not implemented' for now
22:39 TimToady the @;AoA syntax changed into the @@AoA syntax.
22:40 fglock is @;AoA just a syntax error?
22:41 TimToady should be, until we come up with a different use for a ; twigil.
22:41 fglock ok!
22:42 clkao is there test for subs without signature but with parameter ?
22:43 clkao t/data_types/subtypes.t hangs as well
22:44 svnbot6 r11492 | fglock++ | v6 - @;AoA is a syntax error; fixed infinite loop
22:46 fglock clkao: it's not hanging here
22:46 fglock maybe it's fixed
22:53 leo-max joined perl6
22:53 leo-max hi all
22:53 penk joined perl6
22:54 leo-max just wanted you to know... you [perl6 dev team] have totally screwed it in every possible way :(
22:54 leo-max not even funny
22:54 TimToady would you like a commit bit?
22:58 * ruoso really hopes to have a better bandwidth someday
23:04 * ruoso also hopes for a better processor...
23:05 ruoso fglock, are many tests failing? or I just have my environment screwed
23:05 ruoso ?
23:06 clkao ruoso: PCR? make clean first
23:06 fglock ruoso: check the Pugs-Compiler-Rule installation - see also the Requirements section in v6 pod
23:06 fglock bbiab &
23:07 * ruoso going home...
23:10 clkao we pass 424 tests as of now
23:11 clkao (was 225 two days ago)
23:21 obra nice
23:40 Davemon joined perl6
23:42 Davemon is now known as Daveman
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