Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-07-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 cognominal joined perl6
00:30 nothingmuch i'm actually installing orz
00:30 nothingmuch to use it
00:32 clkao nothingmuch: so where's the rest of your music
00:32 nothingmuch on my laptop
00:32 nothingmuch i can rsync it to my  box when i get home
00:32 nothingmuch or i can push specific parts to you over the next hour or so
00:32 nothingmuch till boarding
00:33 clkao orz
00:33 clkao i will wait till you get home
00:33 clkao have a safe flight
00:38 TimToady nothingmuch: I've updated S03--so tell me if there's something there that I should clarify.
00:40 nothingmuch TimToady: i just started reading the patches
00:40 nothingmuch but a certain someone is a constant distraction
00:40 TimToady it's pretty much what we discussed.
00:40 nothingmuch yes, i looked over it
00:40 nothingmuch and the first pragraph of each one is very clear
00:40 nothingmuch the exact details are what i haven't looked at yet
00:40 TimToady pity about the rest.. :)
00:40 nothingmuch so i may have nitty feedback
00:40 nothingmuch heh
00:41 TimToady k
00:41 TimToady there's always nits...
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00:50 TreyHarris TimToady: just a crazy idea.  one of the things programmers from other languages have to get used to is that Perl's boolean operators return values other than just true and false.  since in Perl 6, we can give any object a true or a false role, should the comparison and relational operators now return values as well?
00:59 TimToady ?eval 1 == 1
00:59 evalbot_11535 is now known as evalbot_11550
00:59 evalbot_11550 Bool::True
00:59 TimToady not such a crazy idea
01:00 TimToady ?eval (1 == 1) + 42
01:00 evalbot_11550 43.0
01:01 TimToady or are you asking for Icon's semantics?
01:01 TimToady I don't like those...
01:13 TreyHarris TimToady: sorry, lost my connection for a bit.  I'm not familiar with Icon's semantics, what are they?  I was thinking more that "3 < 4" should return "4 but true", "3 > 4" should return "3 but false"
01:13 TreyHarris s/should/might/ # i'm still just thinking out loud
01:15 TimToady yeah, that's Icon's semantics...
01:15 TimToady except they call it "success" rather than truth.
01:16 TreyHarris ok, since you've thought about it and made a determination, i'll rest easy :-)
01:17 TimToady it might well even work that way underneath, by my experience with Icon tells me it's a lousy thing to try to get newbies to understand.
01:17 TimToady s/by/but/
01:18 TimToady me having been a newbie once trying to understand Icon...
01:18 dduncan joined perl6
01:18 TreyHarris true, but it's a lousy thing to get Perl newbies (who are, say, C++ programmers) to understand a simple thing like "$a = $b || $c".  just today somebody on my company's perl list posited that that should always be turned into a ternary or an if/else because it's too difficult to understand "even for experienced developers"....
01:19 TreyHarris but I think that's just C bias showing
01:19 TimToady Yeah, we use "or" to return things other than booleans all the time in English.
01:20 TimToady but most of us don't use < to return $b but true
01:21 dduncan I don't know if others are doing this, but starting now I will be maintaining a separate clean-room style install of Perl on my machine whose only purpose is to support v6.pm ... it will be the latest stable Perl (5.8.x) plus the latest CPAN releases of v6.pm and the latest CPAN releases of all of its dependency chain ... and nothing else ... only what is released on CPAN will go in it ...
01:21 nothingmuch boarding time soon
01:22 TreyHarris yes.  I have difficulty understanding sentences like "'if (! $d)' is much easier to understand than 'unless $d'"....  I suspect a certain degree of disingenousness when I hear that.
01:22 dduncan parallel to the SVN of Pugs, this will be the "Perl 6" for my development
01:23 dduncan that collection will be the Perl 6 analogue of a plain Perl 5 install
01:23 nothingmuch TimToady: maybe a comment on why strings are really objects but pretend to be values is important
01:23 TimToady hmm.
01:23 nothingmuch the whole character <-> encoding thing shouldn't be explained in line
01:23 dduncan since v6.pm et al are released to CPAN now frequently, it should be fairly up to date with development at any given time
01:23 dduncan that is all
01:23 nothingmuch but the fact that strings are higher level than buffers
01:24 nothingmuch but can be canonicalized as bufers
01:24 dduncan the purpose is to partly to simulate what CPAN users actually are dealing with, and it is a semblence more stable than the SVN versions
01:24 TimToady semblances can be important.
01:25 nothingmuch gee, ya think? ;-)
01:25 TimToady that's why I dissemble frequently.
01:26 nothingmuch =)
01:26 nothingmuch so was that a pretend patch?
01:27 TimToady I always pretend when I patch synopses that the implementation will just naturally follow along without effort.  :)
01:27 TimToady If I thought too much about how *hard* some people are working on this, I might get to feelin' guilty or something.
01:28 nothingmuch <3 svk
01:28 nothingmuch <3 darcs
01:28 TimToady instead, I sort of perform the Jewish mother trick: "that's okay, I'll just sit here without Perl 6 for a while."
01:28 nothingmuch !<3 flights
01:28 nothingmuch my dad does the jewish mother trick often
01:29 nothingmuch though more subtle
01:29 * kolibrie wanted to be a commercial pilot once
01:29 nothingmuch wasn't it your wife who wanted you to be a helicopter pilot?
01:29 nothingmuch i thought you kinda didn't want to
01:29 TimToady now you want to be a non-commercial pilot, or a commercial non-pilot?
01:29 * nothingmuch puts his money on the latter
01:30 kolibrie my mom wanted me to fulfill my dream of becoming a pilot
01:30 TimToady me, I'm a non-commercial non-pilot...
01:30 * nothingmuch still has that dream sort of
01:30 kolibrie my wife decided it would be great if I could fly an EMT helicopter and she could be the EMT
01:30 nothingmuch i want to learn to fly a glider
01:31 kolibrie nothingmuch: that might be fun
01:31 nothingmuch i'm assuming it is
01:31 nothingmuch but ENOTUITS right now
01:31 nothingmuch maybe in a few months
01:31 * kolibrie is a private pilot now, but haven't flown for a couple years
01:32 kolibrie very expensive to rent planes
01:32 nothingmuch oh! i didn't know you actually flew
01:32 nothingmuch i thought you let it go after a while
01:32 kolibrie sort of did
01:32 kolibrie I'm not pursuing it any more
01:32 nothingmuch (that is, before you begun to learn)
01:33 nothingmuch *you'd
01:33 nothingmuch or perhaps *began learning
01:33 nothingmuch english is difficult
01:33 kolibrie I think there is still a little left in my blood, for when I have money again, if that ever happens
01:34 nothingmuch maybe you can do for-pay flights
01:34 nothingmuch i heard it's fairly easy to get the certification level at which you can accompany a trainee
01:34 nothingmuch and fly for free
01:34 nothingmuch or almost free
01:34 kolibrie only if I get a commercial license
01:34 nothingmuch (i have a friend who learned to fly in the US and has been really rambling)
01:35 TimToady maybe that's why they gave you the special pat-down treatment at the airport...
01:36 nothingmuch perhaps
01:36 nothingmuch oopps
01:36 TimToady but hey, I have a friend who claims she's an anarchist...
01:36 nothingmuch 10:50 noto 10:15
01:36 nothingmuch she gets harassed for that?
01:37 nothingmuch (at the airports?)
01:37 TimToady no, but he did.
01:37 nothingmuch oh
01:37 nothingmuch that was all ingy's fault
01:37 TimToady that's okay--ingy's good at taking responsibility
01:37 nothingmuch =)
01:38 nothingmuch "what doe G mean? I G NY?"
01:38 nothingmuch idiots
01:38 nothingmuch well, at least they don't ask "What do those shiny things stand for"
01:38 TimToady grep?
01:38 nothingmuch i think her current wardrobe is a little less suspicious looking
01:39 nothingmuch i mean, i would totally not trust a nice looking person in a pink shirt either
01:39 kolibrie I used to have a pink dress shirt my mom made me wear
01:39 TimToady I don't think I've worn a pink shirt for a year or so...
01:39 nothingmuch i like my pink dress shirt
01:40 nothingmuch well, my pink shirt
01:40 TimToady you don't have a pink dress?
01:41 kolibrie I normally wear bright or bold colors now, pastels and such just don't do it for me
01:41 nothingmuch no, i have a kilt
01:41 nothingmuch but that shirt isn't very dressy either
01:42 TimToady I don't know a tartan from a tartar from a tart.  Well, okay, I can recognize a tart usually...
01:43 TimToady sure seems like a Friday night...
01:44 nothingmuch the IRC channel?
01:44 * nothingmuch will install a laugh-machine for next week
01:44 nothingmuch and a drum set
01:45 nothingmuch it should be a fiarly ismple IRC bot, and an aggregate bot launcher
01:45 nothingmuch you'd say *applause* and then they would say "clap" at random intervals
01:45 nothingmuch and then you would say *laughter* and they would say "haaha" and "lolz" and stuff (also at random intervals)
01:45 TimToady It has to tell bad Muppet jokes I think.
01:46 nothingmuch And that was nothing like a bad muppet joke, i think!
01:46 nothingmuch *laughter*
01:46 TimToady no, every bad joke is like a muppet joke!
01:46 TimToady hrr,hrr,hrrrrr
01:47 TimToady we'd like to thank our special guest tonight, nothingmuch.
01:47 TimToady but we won't.
01:47 nothingmuch *applause*
01:47 kolibrie *clap*
01:47 nothingmuch kolibrie: it has to be like 10-20 bots together
01:48 kolibrie sorry, I'm only one
01:48 TimToady hard to simulate a saxophone playing the wrong note though.
01:48 kolibrie and not too good as a bot
01:48 nothingmuch we could have an opbot that occasionally shouts ANIMAAAAAAAL and kicks all the channel
01:48 theorbtwo It could say hahaha and then /nick to something else.
01:48 nothingmuch but then again, nobody is op in #perl6 =)
01:48 mj41__ joined perl6
01:48 nothingmuch theorbtwo: much more amusing to have 10-20 bots at the same time
01:49 TimToady I'm op for it if you're op for it.  har har har
01:49 nothingmuch *applause*
01:49 nothingmuch *laughter*
01:49 dduncan of course, if the opbot had just kicked everyone off, no one would see it say hahaha
01:49 nothingmuch the bots would
01:49 nothingmuch and the logbot can stay =)
01:49 nothingmuch this could be nice example code
01:50 TimToady the Mupbot Show
01:50 kolibrie anyway, I'm off to bed
01:50 kolibrie nothingmuch: have a great flight
01:50 nothingmuch good night
01:50 nothingmuch thank you
01:50 nothingmuch they took away my exit row
01:50 nothingmuch so i don't know how fun it'll be
01:50 nothingmuch especially since i built up my anticipation
01:51 TimToady I try not to anticipate fun with exit rows...
01:51 nothingmuch legroom
01:51 TimToady but do you understand English well enough to read this card?
01:51 theorbtwo We could have a Beaker bot, that says *meep* whenever somebody says m/!$/.
01:51 nothingmuch i think so
01:51 nothingmuch but either way that's not the problem
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01:51 nothingmuch the problem is that the door is too round and too large to fit on the seats like they explain
01:52 nothingmuch because of the arm rests
01:52 TimToady but can you follow spoken directions?
01:52 TimToady or any directions, for that matter....
01:52 nothingmuch i expect panicking passengers to make it fall and break someone's leg within seconds
01:52 nothingmuch i follow driving directions
01:52 nothingmuch when I don't notice them clkao takes us to maine
01:52 TimToady I expect the clod sitting next to the door to open it and let in the fire...
01:53 nothingmuch they have instructions for that too
01:53 nothingmuch but not in english
01:53 nothingmuch there's a stick figure with a dotted line looking through the window at fire
01:53 nothingmuch and then a big red X
01:53 TimToady reddy, aim, 火
01:53 nothingmuch (i had an exit row on chicago -> boston, so i'm addicted now)
01:53 nothingmuch yes, like that =)
01:55 TimToady flight's at 10:50, or boarding time?
01:55 nothingmuch i dunno
01:55 nothingmuch there are some people at the gate so far
01:55 nothingmuch but no shouting
01:56 TimToady they're shouting vewy, vewy siwentwy.
01:56 nothingmuch meh
01:56 nothingmuch the other gates are shouting very loudly
02:00 TimToady well, I'm gonna go off and be boring now, so have a good flight, where good is defined as not getting either too wet or too hot.
02:00 dduncan TimToady, re your latest synopsis updates echoed on p6l, those new versions look great
02:00 theorbtwo Have a good flight yourself, Larry.
02:01 TimToady dduncan: thanks.
02:01 TimToady theorbtwo: fleeing now, thanks. &
02:05 nothingmuch the PR just said "There is a method to ouro madness, please just work with us"
02:15 * nothingmuch prepares to be overbooked again
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02:35 azuroth hi all, I'd like to contribute, but don't know where to start...
02:35 PerlJam azuroth: what do you know?  What do you care about?  What do you want to do?
02:36 PerlJam documentaion? test? haskell code? perl6 code?
02:36 PerlJam perl5 code?
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02:44 azuroth haskell code, maybe, or perl 6 code
02:45 revdiablo The test suite used to be a good place to start. I don't know if that's still the case... it's pretty well-developed these days. Though I'm sure it could still use some work, it may not be the place to start
02:45 revdiablo Hopefully someone else will chime in who's been more active than I have =)
02:48 azuroth hmm, okay
02:57 PerlJam azuroth: pugs still doesn't implement everything to spec.  If you know haskell, you could pick a failing or todo test and make it work.
03:13 obra nothingmuch: still here?
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03:33 robkinyon audreyt: ping
04:05 audreyt robkinyon: commit to http://svn.openfoundry.org/perlsyck
04:05 lambdabot Title: Revision 144: /
04:05 audreyt (yes you are committer now :))
04:38 dduncan I have a question about Synopsis 3 before I write to p6l about it ...
04:38 dduncan what is ?| exactly?
04:39 dduncan its mentioned only at the top in a section on bitwise operators
04:39 dduncan but part of its description suggests it is the same as || but for its output type
04:39 dduncan and || is not a bitwise operator
04:40 dduncan eg, || returns the value of the first true argument, ?| returns simply true or false but not that value
04:40 audreyt yup.
04:40 audreyt also ?| evaluates both sides
04:40 audreyt || may not
04:40 dduncan the confusion isn't helped by that ?| isn't in the precedence table
04:41 audreyt send a patch to p6l?
04:41 dduncan I'm doing that anyway about other S03 issues ...
04:41 audreyt okie
04:41 dduncan but wondered if I should also ask about the meaning of ?| there or not
04:41 audreyt nod
04:42 audreyt it's just || that's eager and returns always a Bool
04:42 dduncan it does?
04:42 dduncan I thought || returned the first value that was true
04:42 dduncan which may not be a Bool
04:42 audreyt sorry
04:42 azuroth ?| is || but eager & bool
04:42 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
04:42 dduncan yes
04:42 audreyt ?| is just ||, _except_ it is eager and returns always a Bool
04:42 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
04:43 audreyt azuroth: interested in coding up runpugs? :)
04:43 dduncan so it sounded like ?| belongs more with the tight-or operators rather than the bitwise operators
04:43 audreyt azuroth: (as mentioned in http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2​006/07/pugs_janitor_ta.html )
04:43 dduncan would you agree or disagree?
04:44 audreyt I think it's additive
04:45 azuroth the interactive shell one, audreyt?
04:49 audreyt azuroth: aye
04:49 audreyt dduncan: I think it's on the additive layer
04:49 dduncan well, I've just sent the message to p6l
04:51 dduncan so check it out ... some of those should be easy fixes
04:55 audreyt okay.
04:55 audreyt I need to afk+sleep soon though
04:55 dduncan sure
04:55 audreyt *wave*
04:55 * audreyt will be in Mooseland this weekend
04:55 dduncan where's that?
04:55 audreyt once I got my head fully around it I'll return to Pugsland and get 6.28.0 Done Correctly With Full Moose Power
04:56 audreyt dduncan: http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2​006/07/moosifying_jift.html
04:56 dduncan by the way, will there be more picture taking of live Moose at OSCON?
04:56 audreyt I don't know
04:56 dduncan as I plan to make heavy use of it and/or contribute to it, might be worth joining the crowd
04:57 audreyt I think you'll make a great lambdamoose
04:57 audreyt or moosecamel. or something :)
04:57 audreyt but, *wave* &
04:57 dduncan that said, I plan to use it by way of v6, but its still use
04:57 dduncan yes, yes, & away
04:57 audreyt sure, but v6 is all just sugar; if you want anything from the API, need to hack at moose layer
04:58 dduncan so I can still contribute to it
04:58 dduncan don't let me keep you
04:58 dduncan from your &ing
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05:26 cmarcelo xerox: re: soc - is going fine (specially now i am free from university work/exams), learning lots of haskell and (as a bonus) trying to get pugs compiled with latest GHC every day =o)
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05:27 cmarcelo audreyt: did you get my mail?
05:27 audreyt yes I did, but I'm sleeping
05:27 audreyt and there doesn't seem to be urgent issues with your progress
05:28 audreyt so I was... delaying the reply a bit. I'm very happy about your current progress :)
05:29 cmarcelo ehhe.. ok, dont rush, but reply when you can..
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05:31 audreyt will do
05:33 cmarcelo audreyt: just a thing, whats your timezone now? boston?
05:33 audreyt boston
05:36 cmarcelo audreyt:  ok. tomorrow i'll "seek" you, i have to sleep now too =P
05:42 audreyt =) g'nite
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07:30 TreyHarris ?eval my $x = none(0); $x++
07:30 evalbot_11550 Error: Cannot cast from VJunc none(VInt 0) to Double (VNum)
07:30 TreyHarris ?eval my $x = none(0); $x += 1
07:30 evalbot_11550 \(1)
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07:32 TreyHarris ?eval my %h = { :a<eh>, :b<bee>}; ?( %h{'a'|'b'} eq "eh")
07:32 evalbot_11550 Bool::False
07:32 merlyn ... http://www.twit.tv/floss9 - i was interviewed for an hour, and I talk about perl6
07:33 lambdabot Title: FLOSS Weekly with Chris DiBona | TWiT.TV
07:33 TreyHarris merlyn: nice!
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08:06 ingy nothingmuch: hi
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08:09 wolverian wow, this is a really nerdy conversation :)
08:09 pdcawley This is #perl6, what do you expect?
08:10 wolverian no, I mean merlyn's interview: http://www.twit.tv/floss9
08:10 lambdabot Title: FLOSS Weekly with Chris DiBona | TWiT.TV
08:11 wolverian I'm not used to _hearing_ conversations like this :)
08:11 merlyn yeah,pretty geeky
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08:13 wolverian energetic too
08:14 merlyn I had fun with that interview
08:14 merlyn they cut out about 30% of it
08:14 merlyn but we had ran over by 30 minutes anyway. :)
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09:31 xerox audreyt: ping
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12:14 gaal does pugs' objectspace need to be bootstrapped at runtime? is it easier to do it that way or just more pure?
12:14 gaal objectspace+mop etc.
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17:15 * Termy is away: breakfast
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17:34 merlyn my interview ... http://www.twit.tv/floss9 - schedules of perl6 discussed
17:34 lambdabot Title: The TWiT Podcast Network with Leo Laporte
17:34 merlyn now you can all make me a liar. :)
17:34 audreyt I'll call you a cab :)
17:35 * audreyt listens
17:36 audreyt mm, no transcription
17:36 audreyt for the hearing-impaired among us, what did you say about schedule of perl6? :)
17:50 * Termy is back (gone 00:34:47)
17:51 xerox audreyt - It'd be great if you could tell us some other informations on #haskell about the Cabal affair! I'll be right back.
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18:08 nothingmuch obra: hi ho
18:08 nothingmuch ingy: hi ho
18:09 * nothingmuch restarts client for TZ
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18:27 ingy nothingmuch: hi love
18:27 nothingmuch hi love
18:29 gaal nothingmuch!
18:29 nothingmuch gaal!
18:29 ingy :)
18:30 gaal how was the eventual flight?
18:30 nothingmuch rather eventful
18:30 merlyn I basically gave my best guess, which is an alpha release end of this year, beta next summer, and usable for production another six months to a year down.
18:30 nothingmuch they were a half hour late due to cargo issues on departure
18:30 nothingmuch and then even more late when security jocks raided the plane on arrival
18:30 merlyn however, I've said that exact same timeline three years ago. :)
18:30 nothingmuch and then said "ok, you can go"
18:31 nothingmuch funny thing is
18:31 nothingmuch i forgot to empty/depressurize my stove fuel bottle
18:31 nothingmuch so despite having been "selected" i virtually had a bomb on the plane
18:32 gaal you could have got into some trouble for that...
18:32 nothingmuch yes
18:32 nothingmuch that was very stupid of me
18:32 nothingmuch but even stupider of them for missing it
18:33 * gaal has to go off to the store for a bit... welcome home
18:35 svnbot6 r11551 | fglock++ | PCR Pugs::Runtime::Common - updated var names
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18:38 svnbot6 r11552 | fglock++ | v6 - added sample script 'lrep.pl' (not yet working)
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21:03 svnbot6 r11553 | fglock++ | v6 - 'echo 123.say | perl lrep.pl'
21:05 fglock lrep.pl is: ' use v6-alpha; $*IN.slurp.eval; '
21:11 nnunley fglock++
21:12 fglock nnunley: hi!
21:19 vsoni seen audreyt
21:19 jabbot vsoni: audreyt was seen 3 hours 42 minutes 59 seconds ago
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21:54 svnbot6 r11555 | fglock++ | v6 - parser: a block may start an expression
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