Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-07-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady note, we're also thinking about playing similar games with postfix (), which would force for() to be considered a function rather than a keywords.
00:00 salty-horse TimToady, unrelated, I scanned the synopsis and didn't find a mention of foo$x being treated as foo $x
00:01 salty-horse therefore giving room to for overloading, and much obfuscuation?
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00:04 TimToady I see that S03 is unclear on the subject.  I will look at how to remedy that.
00:05 TimToady I was trying to say that you have to use parens to add a postfix: foo().[] and such, but what I said seems to disallow foo$bar.
00:05 TimToady mind you, there's part of me that thinks foo$bar *ought* to be disallowed...
00:11 nothingmuch quick off the top of your heads, i need a module to make '--from="some_date_spec"' parsing easy
00:11 nothingmuch e.g. today, tomorrow, sunday, 1/2 (locale sensitive)
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00:12 salty-horse google cpan fuzzy date ?
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00:13 nothingmuch there's a bajillion hits
00:13 nothingmuch i need the ones that are known to be good, hence the human factor =)
00:14 silug Date::Manip works nicely, but it is a bit slow
00:15 salty-horse no experience with it, but i also notice http://search.cpan.org/~muir/Time-mod​ules-2003.1126/lib/Time/ParseDate.pm
00:16 lambdabot Title: Time::ParseDate -- date parsing both relative and absolute - search.cpan.org
00:17 salty-horse gnight
00:19 silug perl -MDate::Manip -le 'for $n qw(today tomorrow sunday) { print &ParseDate($n) }'
00:19 silug 2006071719:18:37
00:19 silug 2006071819:18:37
00:19 silug 2006072300:00:00
00:19 silug things like "last sunday" work too
00:20 nothingmuch awesome
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00:20 silug "last week" and "last month" work too, although strangely "last year" doesn't
00:21 nothingmuch i doubt a mailing list summarizer will do a last year =)
00:22 silug true
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00:23 silug i love that things like "third monday in august" work.  that would have saved me a lot of coding when i was setting up my LUG sites a few years back.
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00:28 robkinyon seen alias
00:29 jabbot robkinyon: I havn't seen alias, robkinyon
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00:43 jabbot Jedai: ingy was seen 3 hours 10 seconds ago
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01:04 TreyHarris seen audreyt
01:04 jabbot TreyHarris: audreyt was seen 1 hours 14 minutes 37 seconds ago
01:05 TreyHarris ?eval $_ = 3; if .defined -> $id { say "yes: $id" }
01:05 evalbot_11605 is now known as evalbot_11606
01:05 evalbot_11606 Error:  unexpected ">" expecting comment, operator or block
01:05 TreyHarris audreyt: if you see this when you get back, i'm trying to figure out this comment:
01:06 audreyt TreyHarris: the "if ... ->{}" form doesn't yet work
01:06 TreyHarris 09:47 < gaal> er. okay.  I'm just wondering
01:06 TreyHarris oops :-)
01:06 TreyHarris 09:39 < audreyt> if .defined -> $id { ... }
01:06 TreyHarris oh, you replied, and that was what messed up my copy :-)
01:07 TreyHarris ok, thanks
01:08 audreyt np :)
01:09 TreyHarris ?eval my $x = 3; undef $x;
01:09 evalbot_11606 Error:  unexpected "$" expecting comment, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
01:09 TreyHarris is undef() gone?
01:09 audreyt it's now undefine()
01:10 TreyHarris ahh, i missed that.  S29 needs to be tracked in email like the official synopses
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04:48 svnbot6 r11607 | audreyt++ | * Pugs::Compiler::Rule (fglock++'s branch): more fix on getting ::Ratchet initialization working
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05:19 svnbot6 r11608 | audreyt++ | * Implement $$match for real.
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06:00 gaal Should we make U+nnnn a string literal? (equivalent to chr(0xnnnn) but folded)?
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06:04 TimToady do you mean in Perl or Haskell?
06:12 TreyHarris anyone know of a free fixed-width font containing that newline character?  My graphic-designer spouse's Mac, loaded with hundreds of fonts, has only two with that glyph, and both are variable-width :-(
06:22 gaal TimToady: in Perl. By "folded" I mean constant-folded
06:23 gaal "\x[nnnn]"
06:23 TimToady It seems rather special-casey for "\xnnnn"
06:24 gaal just seems useful when copy-pasting from reference tables :)
06:25 TimToady I'm using Sazanami Gothic at the moment, but then I'm studying Japanese...
06:27 * gaal has been looking for a monospaced font with Hebrew, Arabic, and Cyrillic to replace Courier New...
06:30 TimToady I think asking for a monospaced Arabic font is kind of strange...
06:30 gaal hey, they use xterms too...
06:31 gaal Hebrew Yod is ugliest in fixed-width: it's just about two pixels wide.
06:31 gaal רואים?
06:32 TimToady doesn't look too bad in my font.
06:32 gaal Maybe I should just create my own frankenfont.
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06:33 TimToady The mem is a bit squished against the question mark though.
06:33 gaal TimToady: it's *reasonable*, but can't be pretty. It's like seeing unkerned text after reading a quality typeset book.
06:33 TreyHarris TimToady: you may find this of interest.  A couple of computing professors at Middlesex University say they've devised a test that can predict, before any programming instruction whatsoever, whether someone will be able to learn to program or not:
06:33 TreyHarris http://www.codinghorror.com​/blog/archives/000635.html
06:33 lambdabot Title: Coding Horror: Separating Programming Sheep from Non-Programming Goats
06:34 gaal it would be, because the question mark is from the ASCII range, optimized for English glyphs no doubt.
06:35 gaal does Japanese use a Western question mark?
06:35 miyagawa gall: we use both
06:35 TimToady yes, but it has double-wide punctuations when it makes sense
06:35 TreyHarris the test is snippets of code that just show imperative variable assignment, and ask what the values assigned are.  people who are consistent in their guesses of how assignment might work (whether they get the answers right or not) are much more likely to learn to program than people who are inconsistent or who refuse to answer
06:35 TimToady "?" vs "?"
06:36 miyagawa full-width question mark is U+FF1F btw
06:36 gaal TreyHarris: I'd argue that indirection is an important major hurdle for beginners -> intermediate programmers
06:36 TreyHarris miyagawa: what is traditional?  "ka" (sorry, I can't type hiragana in this window) followed by a circle?
06:37 gaal like barre on guitar
06:37 TreyHarris gaal: what do you mean by "indirection"?  abstraction?  references?
06:37 gaal miyagawa, TimToady: thanks
06:37 miyagawa TreyHarris: sorry I don't get your question ...
06:37 gaal TreyHarris: pointers/references
06:38 TimToady It sounds like the test is trying to determine whether you can run a model in your head.
06:38 gaal lambdaheads would object to that :)
06:38 TreyHarris miyagawa: before the question mark was imported, what if any mark was used to end questions?
06:38 TimToady TreyHarris: the ka is often used in conversation with a rising intonation, so is often written with a ? anyway.
06:38 gaal they'd say it's Von Neuman chauvinism to make that test
06:38 TimToady And ka can men "or"ish things too.
06:38 TimToady *mean
06:39 TimToady or "some" as in "something".
06:39 TimToady so the ? would not be entirely redundant.
06:39 miyagawa TreyHarris: Ah, good question. Yeah, if the sentence itself composes the questional verb, the question mark is optional
06:39 miyagawa i wasn't good for Japanese old literature in school and can't tell what's the traditional before the question mark was imported :/
06:39 TimToady and in spoken Japanese the ka is often omitted when a rising tone on the final syllable can convey a question.
06:40 miyagawa eight.
06:40 TimToady You'll often hear: "nani?"
06:40 miyagawa right.
06:40 TimToady from the women, or "nanda?" from the men
06:40 gaal TimToady: anyway, re: arabic and fixed-width: a lot of the characters are in fact reasonably close in width, if they are connectives. Alif for example is thin, but if it's connected on the right it's still reasonable to give it a cell width: ﺄ
06:40 TreyHarris gaal: my first CS course was taught with Haskell.  I really think it made a big difference in my abilities (but permanently ruined my code's readability for complete novices who can't handle anything vaguely functional).  but i still "thought" imperatively and translated into Haskell
06:41 TimToady some of the ligatures look to be at least triple width though...
06:41 TreyHarris TimToady: my teachers were all women and didn't even attempt to teach male forms, so I say "nani" and get laughed at :-)
06:41 gaal lim-alif is kinda wide, but can be squished in...
06:42 gaal it's sin and final 'sad that are really cramped.
06:42 miyagawa TrryHarris: Male using "nani" is nothing hillarious. it'd be okay
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06:43 TimToady ﷆ
06:43 TimToady now, you probably better use "kana..." rather than "kashira..."
06:43 TimToady and don't say "atashi" instead of "watashi"...
06:44 miyagawa right. "kana" can be used by both male/female but "kashira" implies female
06:44 TreyHarris what about "o-<noun>"?  that's the one that I really don't get when I'm supposed to use.
06:44 TimToady and don't use the "wa" particle (not to be confused with the "ha" particle that is pronounced "wa")
06:45 TimToady depends on how respectful you're wanting to be.
06:45 * gaal goes bike shopping &
06:45 TimToady women are just in general expected to be more respectful by and large
06:45 TimToady many of the o-nouns you can't really be understood without the o in any case
06:46 TimToady it's sorta become part of the noun.
06:46 TimToady but the o-verb suru kinds of things are more productive, I think.
06:46 TreyHarris TimToady: ah, that's the crucial bit i was missing.  i was trying to form a hypothesis by exclusion, and didn't realize the particle was attaching at the lexical level
06:49 TimToady it varies, of course, but if you just say "cha" they might just wonder if you said "ja", whereas "ocha" is much less ambiguous to the ear.
06:50 TimToady it really does tend to be driven a lot by what will seem ambiguous--particle omission works the same way.
06:50 TreyHarris right
06:51 TimToady and unfortunately there's no way to know what'll be ambiguous without knowing the majority of the language.
06:51 TimToady I don't know how many times I've struggle to parse a bit of writing, and finally figured out that it was a proper noun.
06:51 miyagawa some historical nouns have "omi" as a prefix, which is a doubled version of "o"
06:52 TimToady interesting.
06:52 TreyHarris ?eval sub foo (Int $x) { say $x }; foo("hello")
06:52 evalbot_11606 is now known as evalbot_11609
06:52 evalbot_11609 OUTPUT[hello ] Bool::True
06:52 TreyHarris is that always supposed ot work, or is that a TBD with pugs?
06:52 miyagawa "omiotsuke" is a tripple "o"-ed version of "tsuke" == picke
06:52 miyagawa pickle
06:53 TimToady that's a TBD, I'm sure.
06:54 TimToady I only know "tsukemono"...
06:55 TimToady but if I ever wish to be very respectful to a pickle... :)
06:55 TreyHarris ok--so there's no catch-all "you tried to call a sub, and I don't have a matching one, but I do have one by that name, so I'll just use it" DWIM
06:56 lumi Isn't this for being respectful while mentioning a pickle?
06:56 TimToady I could argue that Int is just a role that is required of $x, and that say is not required to access $x via the Int role, I suppose...
06:56 TimToady but it seems a stretch.
06:57 TimToady lumi: hai, joudan desu...
07:00 TimToady miyagawa-san: is omi spelled 御神?
07:01 miyagawa TimToady: it comes with triple U+5FA1's: http://gogen-allguide.com/o/omiotsuke.html
07:01 lambdabot Title: ŒäŒäŒä•t‚¯i‚¨‚Ý‚¨‚‚¯j - ŒêŒ¹—R—ˆŽ«“T
07:02 miyagawa oh, and I was wrong. omiotsuke stands for miso-soup, not pickle (tsukemono).
07:06 TimToady sugoi.
07:06 TimToady I think I'll have to bookmark that site...
07:06 miyagawa :)
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10:17 gaal audreyt: ping
10:18 audreyt pong
10:21 gaal hey, stylistic question. I've always been a little unhappy with the deep patmatching in emitNode
10:21 gaal what do you say about changing
10:21 gaal emitNode _ e n@(MkYamlNode{nodeElem = YamlStr str}) =  ...
10:21 gaal to
10:21 gaal emitNode _ e n | YamlStr str <- nodeElem (MkYamlNode n) = ...
10:21 audreyt that works fine
10:21 gaal I don't know if it's better :)
10:21 audreyt it is
10:21 audreyt though
10:22 audreyt YamlStr str <- nodeElem n
10:22 audreyt suffices
10:22 * audreyt is still playing this commit/revert/commit game with allison on parrot-porters
10:22 gaal also, we could follow the new naming conventions and get even shorter identifiers :) but that'd break compatibility and we're a Packaged Library now :)
10:23 audreyt nah. please break compatibility.
10:23 audreyt before cabal-install gets deployed, Packaged Libraries means very little
10:23 gaal whoo, you're right about not needing the record tag there! yay
10:24 gaal s/tag/constructor/
10:24 * audreyt should sleep, too
10:24 audreyt *wave*
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10:25 xerox Seeya!
10:25 gaal night :)
10:27 gaal clkao: svk sucks because it doesn't have a "svk ci --ephemeral" option to help audreyt in commit-revert games :)
10:27 audreyt svk ci -P -
10:27 audreyt is that :)
10:27 gaal ah, obviously I should revert my last statement :)
10:28 gaal er, no, that's just spelled "diff", no? :)
10:29 gaal diff with the option to interactively select files to include.
10:31 webmind s/is/ie/
10:44 nothingmuch moose
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11:20 gaal nothingmuch: moose!
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11:33 gaal audreyt: one place our convention comes out a little clunky is in variants that have a sort of catch-all case. So data ValUndef = UndefUnit | ..., or, in the present case, data YamlAnchor = AnchorUnit | ... (used to be MkYamlAnchor, I'm thinking "unit" is misleading here)
11:33 gaal maybe AnchorSimple
11:34 gaal er, actually that should be UUnit and ASimple
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11:40 gaal maybe in that case UUndef and AAnchor look less ridiculous :)
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12:12 svnbot6 r11610 | gaal++ | * util/claim_drift.pl: claim files more aggressively (works better for
12:12 svnbot6 r11610 | gaal++ |   first claim)
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13:20 gaal fglock: is it ok to svn rm perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/Makefile.old ?
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13:40 svnbot6 r11611 | fglock++ | pX/fglock/PCR - '$match->perl'
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13:58 svnbot6 r11612 | fglock++ | pX/fglock/PCR - some tests pass
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14:19 svnbot6 r11614 | gaal++ | * HsSyck:
14:19 svnbot6 r11614 | gaal++ | - use Pugs naming convention and other misc. cleanups
14:19 svnbot6 r11614 | gaal++ | - this change breaks the API (only by name), so bump version to 0.2.
14:19 svnbot6 r11614 | gaal++ | * Pugs:
14:19 svnbot6 r11614 | gaal++ | - chase API changes and re-DrIFT.
14:19 svnbot6 r11614 | gaal++ | You may need to 'ghc-pkg unregister pugs-HsSyck' or even
14:19 svnbot6 r11614 | gaal++ | 'make clean' after this update.
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14:55 svnbot6 r11615 | fglock++ | pX/fglock/PCR - 03-match.t passes 38/46
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15:16 svnbot6 r11616 | fglock++ | pX/fglock/PCR - refactored non-anchored match in Regex
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16:32 svnbot6 r11618 | fglock++ | pX/fglock/PCR - 03-match.t all tests pass, including TODOs
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16:45 ruoso fglock, hi...
16:45 ruoso fglock, did the Makefile work on Windows?
16:46 ruoso I didn't have how to test it
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16:46 fglock ruoso: I didn't test - I'm currently working in PCR TODOs
16:47 fglock I'll merge later, then I can fix any Makefile problems too
16:49 ruoso ok...
16:49 ruoso you can blame me for any problem  :)
16:50 fglock ok :)
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17:59 svnbot6 r11621 | fglock++ | pX/fglock/PCR - docs update; passes 199/228
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20:36 svnbot6 r11627 | daxim++ | check if parrot is in PATH
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