Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-07-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:29 clkao fglock: around?
00:35 clkao fglock: i change the signature_term_type to use bare_ident. now junctive type is having infinite loop. is this a bug in PCR?
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00:36 TimToady clkao: did you ever get an answer on proto?
00:36 clkao TimToady: uhm, not really
00:36 TimToady defined in S6
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00:40 TreyHarris TimToady: I'll ask audreyt the same question later, but I'm giving an internal talk at $job next week to update on Perl 6 progress in the past 6-ish months. other than what I've seen in the Synopsis deltas, is there anything else that's happened since YAPC important enough for such a talk, in your opinion?
00:41 TimToady loop {...} while has changed to repeat {...} while
00:41 TreyHarris yep, got that one down :-)
00:42 TimToady thinking...
00:42 TreyHarris thanks!
00:43 TimToady pipe ops now called feed ops
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00:43 TimToady can now use \ on any whitespace
00:45 TimToady there's now a ! metaoperator
00:45 TimToady env vars now "is context" vars
00:46 clkao is this an effort to stop christmas happening or to have a better christmas?
00:46 TimToady << ... >> now matches word boundaries in regex
00:47 TimToady I'm just listing changes that happened in the last month for TreyHarris++
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00:53 TimToady but mostly this is for a better christmas.  Most of these things are not changing something that exists.  the main exception, repeat, I already hacked into the .hs and pcp parsers
00:54 clkao yay
00:55 TreyHarris TimToady: thanks, that was helpful, I missed ! and hadn't thought about some of the others
00:55 TreyHarris TimToady++
00:56 TimToady It was easy, I just did "svn log SXX.pod | less"  :)
00:57 audreyt dduncan: sorry, I'm totally fried
00:57 audreyt my brain stopped working
00:57 audreyt so I'm back to hotel and ready to crash
00:58 audreyt dduncan: I did intend to come to OSCamp to find you
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00:58 audreyt but the unexpected lightning-talk-call razed my schedule
00:58 audreyt sorry about that...
00:58 audreyt *thunk* &
00:58 TreyHarris TimToady: oh duh, I don't have the synopses checked out, they're not in the pugs repository--where are they?  But in any case, I was more interested if there was anything outside the Synopsis space that I might have missed
00:59 TreyHarris I watch the deltas sent to p6-l, of course, but that's not as flexible as having it checked out
01:00 dduncan audreyt, well at least we met in the hall ... that was the least I wanted
01:11 TimToady TreyHarris: https://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design
01:11 TimToady afk &
01:11 TreyHarris TimToady: thanks!
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04:45 spinclad TreyHarris: if you haven't followed them, audrey's blogs at http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs should tell you a lot.  We've had hage things happening with p6-in-p5, p6-in-p6, moose ...  Xmas is coming, the goose is getting fat.
04:53 spinclad TimToady: i just noticed that ?? !! has both names C<trinary> and C<ternary> in S03.  (MHO favors C<ternary>, naturally.)
04:58 PerlJam spinclad: as long as no one makes the mistake of replacing them both with "tertiary"  :)
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05:31 gaal mooooooose
05:36 lumi gaal: Morning! I'm leaving your way presently
05:37 lumi Do you have unwired network or a wire? Or should I BMOE?
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05:37 nothingmuch moose morning
05:38 gaal lumi: no wifi, alas
05:38 gaal lumi: did you have breakfast?
05:38 lumi Nay
05:39 lumi I ran errands all morning instead
05:39 gaal "all morning"!? 8:41
05:39 nothingmuch my thoughts exactly
05:39 gaal ok come here and we'll grab a bite somewhere
05:40 nothingmuch e.t.a?
05:40 lumi t-1h or so
05:41 gaal lumi: there are cables. BYOAnythingYouThinkIsGood
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06:53 agentzh TimToady: what's wrong with "proto"?
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07:32 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "Another patch for S04 (r10488). Review welcomed. :=)" (80 lines, 3.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18645
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07:34 agentzh bbiab &
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08:59 tessier__ Why implement perl6 in haskell? Why bother with perl at all? Why not just code in haskell?
09:00 Bleadof Brilliant!
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09:01 tessier__ I'm looking for enlightenment, not gratuitous flattery. :P
09:01 Bleadof There was a hint of sarcasm in that comment ;)
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09:05 tessier__ Either way you leave me unsatisfied.
09:07 Bleadof That was the point ;)
09:08 tessier__ WTF is the deal with Audrey Tang?
09:08 tessier__ Someone is confused.
09:16 Juerd tessier__: Haskell is a very different language than Perl 6
09:16 Juerd In short, Haskell doesn't allow you to shoot yourself in the foot so easily.
09:22 tessier__ Juerd: Right. That would seem to be an advantage. So why use haskell to build the ability to shoot yourself in the foot? Why care about perl6?
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09:34 Juerd tessier__: Because Perl 6 is a great language that lacks an implementation, and Haskell makes the first implementation possible.
09:34 Juerd tessier__: And because Audrey cares about both languages. I'm very happy about that :)
09:44 cognominal tessier_: with perl6 you can program in a functional way, you don't have to.  This means one does not to immediately rewire his whole brain to start working
09:45 cognominal s/not to/not have to/
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09:58 tessier__ cognominal: Could you not program in a functional way before perl6?
09:58 lambdabot i am just a fun girl!
09:59 tessier__ FWIW I just bought Higher Order Perl last night. Should arrive in a few days.
09:59 lambdabot why me? :)
09:59 tessier__ lambdabot: Girls are fun but my advice is that if it fucks, floats, or flies, you are better off renting it by the hour.
10:12 nothingmuch tessier__: marry me
10:13 tessier__ nothingmuch: What do you have to offer me as a life partner?
10:16 nothingmuch love
10:17 nothingmuch by the hour, of course
10:17 nothingmuch oh, and I could also teach you how to  appreciate the beauty of PHP
10:17 nothingmuch i say screw all this perl 6 haskell mumbo jumbo
10:17 nothingmuch i mean, who the hell even *needs* lexicals?
10:19 Juerd PHP 7 *may* get first class functions!
10:19 nothingmuch OMIGAAWD
10:19 nothingmuch i better learn csh then
10:19 cognominal tessier__,   that's perl, you could, you did not have to
10:20 * Juerd clipped his fingernails
10:20 Juerd Let's see if this reduces the number of typos :)
10:32 gaal audreyt: "by sending a feed into C<*>." -> "feeding into C<*>" ?
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10:37 * nothingmuch decides to stop working on the vim stuff
10:37 nothingmuch it's too hateful
10:37 nothingmuch plus, if those guys on that wiki did so much research
10:37 nothingmuch but got nothing so far
10:37 nothingmuch it must be hard
10:37 gaal m ++ oose
10:42 gaal @hoogle Map a b => [(a, b)]
10:42 lambdabot Data.FiniteMap.fmToList :: FiniteMap key elt -> [(key, elt)]
10:42 lambdabot Data.Map.assocs :: Map k a -> [(k, a)]
10:42 lambdabot Data.Map.toAscList :: Map k a -> [(k, a)]
10:43 gaal (sorry, my local goa is borked because system fps clashes with pugs fps...)
10:43 xerox FiniteMap ?!?!
10:43 xerox Data.Map.toList
10:43 xerox You want ->, not =>, gaal :-)
10:44 xerox (->) is the function type constructor, => divides the constraints from the actual type.
10:44 gaal er.
10:44 gaal yes yes
10:44 gaal blame the sun.
10:44 * xerox nods
10:45 gaal lumi++ # meatspaceprvmsg informing me \bot does privmsg
10:45 gaal hoogle++ # liberal enough to give me the right answer even when under the influence of tlv weather
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10:47 gaal :79
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10:48 nothingmuch fioo
10:48 nothingmuch test
10:49 gaal nothingmuch: probably a few feet behind you
10:49 nothingmuch vimirc officially sucks
10:49 nothingmuch it's almost 100% blocking
10:49 nothingmuch you can't get messages while typing
10:50 nothingmuch (insert mode)
10:50 nothingmuch and it's event loop is timer based
10:50 gaal for a minute there I didn't see the 'i' and couldn't understand what was wrong with vim's rc file.
10:51 nothingmuch "i" ?
10:51 gaal vim_I_rc
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10:58 nothingmuch oh
11:00 agentzh is there any plan to release pugs test suit separately to CPAN?
11:01 agentzh and is there any good idea to sync the test suit with synopses more closely by some clever synatx or tools?
11:01 gaal agentzh: there was a thread on p6l. dduncan++ wants it as do others...
11:01 gaal i think mostly it's looking for someone to do it.
11:02 gaal agentzh: well, yes! look at util/catalog_tests.pl
11:02 agentzh gaal: looking
11:02 gaal usage: run your smoke test, then that
11:02 gaal it takes a minute or two to run, and then e.g.
11:03 gaal (sec...)
11:03 agentzh okay
11:03 gaal http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/pugstest/​t_index/t/builtins/want.html#line_69
11:03 lambdabot Title: want
11:03 gaal that is a file linked to from smoke.html
11:03 gaal see the hyperlink? follow it
11:04 agentzh hmm, seems good
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11:04 agentzh gaal: it's very nice
11:05 gaal I just got spam with the title "no more new classes". after this morning's haskell chase, that's almost tempting
11:05 gaal agentzh: also the synopses are automatically xreffed back to arbitrary tests
11:06 gaal this aspect of the process isn't very prettily implemented, but it does work.
11:06 agentzh url?
11:06 agentzh oh, i see.
11:06 gaal agentzh: just look for "T" superscripts
11:06 gaal yes
11:06 gaal so any test that is decorated with a comment saying L<...> does that
11:07 gaal credit to theorbtwo, nothingmuch, ted nelson and some others
11:07 agentzh are the synopses' HTML files generated after very smoke?
11:07 gaal agentzh: this isn't automatic, but yes, you'd need to do that.
11:07 agentzh hey, that's exactly what i've been pondering
11:08 agentzh L<...> with some magic text matcher
11:08 gaal the reason is that html isn't really bidirectional, so we need to create target documents that have anchors for us.
11:08 agentzh and two-way cross references
11:08 gaal agentzh: yes, like I said, ted nelson :)
11:08 gaal @google xanadu
11:08 lambdabot http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081777/
11:08 lambdabot Title: Xanadu (1980)
11:08 gaal er, no
11:08 gaal @google project xanadu
11:08 lambdabot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu
11:09 gaal that's more like it :)
11:09 agentzh lambdabot is cute
11:09 gaal yes!
11:09 agentzh en.widipedia.org is not accessible here
11:09 agentzh saddly i'm behind the Great Firewall
11:09 gaal I'll pate for you, sec.
11:10 agentzh okay!
11:10 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "Project Xanadu" (73 lines, 6.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18650
11:12 agentzh gaal: thanks for the paste
11:12 gaal np
11:12 agentzh will look closer later. supper &
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12:36 gaal moooose
12:37 * bpphillips is just a lurking mooose
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13:05 jawd is there any perl mailer out?
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13:06 agentzh jawd: p6-l and p6-c
13:06 jawd where can i get them?
13:06 agentzh jawd: a sec...
13:07 wolverian perl mailer?
13:07 agentzh http://dev.perl.org/perl6/lists/
13:07 agentzh in case that you mean "mailing lists"
13:07 lambdabot Title: Mailing Lists - perl6
13:07 jawd oh..
13:08 jawd i was talkin about a perl mailer..
13:08 wolverian did you mean "a module to send e-mails"?
13:08 jawd e.q; for spammin
13:08 jawd yea
13:08 agentzh oh, that kind of stuff...
13:08 wolverian see CPAN. I recommend the Email::* modules. also, this channel is for the development of the next perl version, not generic perl discussion. try #perl
13:08 wolverian also, don't spam. :-)
13:09 agentzh everyone here hates spam
13:09 jawd i hate spam
13:09 jawd i do spam
13:09 jawd paradoxal, it is
13:09 * agentzh dodges
13:10 wolverian please give me your personal contact information.
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13:13 * [particle] thinks #perl6 needs a spam filter
13:14 glasser hmm, does moose have available svn yet?
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13:27 agentzh gaal: the history of the Xanadu project is rather educational. i've just finished reading your paste. thanks a lot!
13:27 agentzh glasser: ask stevan
13:28 glasser stevan: hmm, does moose have available svn yet? :)
13:29 glasser also, i'm curious about the level of support for cloning objects in moose
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13:32 * agentzh agentzh tries to play with util/catalog_tests.pl a bit
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13:33 glasser like, i see that Class::MOP gives a shallow cloning operation, and says there are good reasons not to do more
13:35 glasser but i'm wondering, if i'd like to use moose in a project, and i'd like my objects to have a deep clone operation (with specifying "clone this attr value, share this one") a la SVK::Accessor
13:35 glasser at what level one should extend moose.
13:35 glasser (ie, is this a reasonable patch for Moose itself? or for a mixin?)
13:41 * agentzh thinks #perl6 is sleeping
13:42 agentzh gaal: in case you backlog, is there a way to generate cross-referenced HTML pages without smoking?
13:43 agentzh gaal: smoking pugs' test suit is an unpleasant process on this machine
13:43 agentzh gaal: not to mention i even can't build pugs here :(
13:47 agentzh jumping between synopses and tests are not very natural. i think a better way is to embed tests directly into synopses, but by default these tests are "folded" and can be "expanded" by the user, just like what Google usually does
13:47 agentzh *embedding
13:48 agentzh furthermore, synopses with embeded tests may be easier to print onto papers
13:52 agentzh glasser:  <stevan_> we set up #moose over at irc.perl.org too, for Class::MOP and Moose related questions/stuff
13:52 agentzh glasser: maybe try out #moose instead?
13:53 gaal agentzh: elk
13:53 gaal agentzh: do you have an account on feather?
13:53 agentzh nope
13:53 gaal it's a fastish machine and you can run your smokes there :)
13:53 agentzh can you ask Juerd to give me one?
13:54 gaal no: you should email him with your name and prefered username
13:54 gaal are you able to ssh to machines outside .cn?
13:54 agentzh okay!
13:54 agentzh with some odd proxy, yes.
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14:33 gaal agentzh: re folding tests into spec, the problem is that they don't necessarily correspond to each other in order
14:33 gaal so a .t file can have tests pertinent to more than on syn doc, and vv.
14:33 gaal what would you embed?
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14:44 [particle] tests in spec is like php in html *yuck*
14:44 aufrank there's something to be said for including any examples from the spec in the tests, though
14:44 aufrank want to make sure any code that's supposed to run does
14:47 * FurnaceBoy thinks of literate programming, mathematica notebooks, etc, etc
14:48 agentzh [particle]: by default the tests are folded in a small button-like label in the spec
14:49 agentzh we can always click the label, say, "t/subroutines/multi_sub.t (2)", to expand the correponding test code
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14:50 agentzh most of the time, we can only see labels like "t/test/name" listed in the spec
14:50 [particle] but editing the spec happens in text editors, where the tests can't be hidden
14:50 agentzh i don't think that will be very annoying
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14:59 agentzh <agentzh> [particle]: you have misunderstood me. i am talking about the generated HTML files, not the pod
15:00 agentzh <agentzh> the idea is: the program scans through the test files, collecting references to the synopses, and then generate the HTML outputs with all the information embedded
15:00 agentzh we just need some JavaScript to "hide" the test code by "magic labels" temporarily
15:01 agentzh the synopses and pugs' tests are still living separately. it is the program which mixes them up
15:02 agentzh aufrank: testing the sample code in the synopses is something mandatory, i think :)
15:02 agentzh gaal: Re not one-to-one correspondence
15:04 agentzh that's easy. if one test references multiple synopses, we can have it appear as a "label" in all the referenced synopses
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15:12 * agentzh hates the firewall which makes his IRC connection extremely fragile.
15:14 agentzh embedding a whole test file into the spec is not interesting at all. it should be a single test case or a small portion of a test file
15:15 agentzh one "label" corresponds to one group or a single test case
15:15 agentzh we need some way to split the .t files in any event
15:19 agentzh i'll try to roll out an implementation after walking through all the Synopses. :)
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16:02 gaal nothingmuch:
16:02 gaal > let hw = "~":["~Y"++x|x<-hw] in hw !! 4
16:02 lambdabot "~Y~Y~Y~Y~"
16:03 xerox > intersperse 'Y' (replicate 5 '~')
16:03 lambdabot "~Y~Y~Y~Y~"
16:04 lumi I like the ~:[ emoticon
16:04 cjeris gaal: in practice is that linear or quadratic in the index 4?
16:05 xerox > take 9 $ fix ("~Y"++)
16:05 lambdabot "~Y~Y~Y~Y~"
16:06 * xerox <3 fixed points
16:07 wolverian I see what you did there..
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16:20 xerox ?pl fix f = f (fix f)
16:20 lambdabot fix = fix (ap id)
16:23 xerox ?fptools Control.Monad.Fix
16:23 lambdabot http://darcs.haskell.org/packa​ges/base/Control/Monad/Fix.hs
16:24 TimToady agentzh: you were asking about "proto"?  Did you mean implementation or spec?
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16:35 gaal cjeris: it's memoized.
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16:44 xdg audreyt: Class-InsideOut 1.01 is headed for CPAN.  register( $classname ) automatically gives you a blessed scalar now.
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17:09 agentzh i'm rewriting util/prove6 using perl 5
17:10 agentzh i hope it can harness both pugs and v6.pm
17:10 [particle] ...and be windows friendly :)
17:10 agentzh so newbies (like me) won't constantly be asking stupid questions like "how can i run just a portion of the huge test suit?"
17:12 agentzh [particle]: which implementation should prove6 choose to run by default?
17:12 agentzh is it okay to say "util/prove6 --pugs t/some/*.t" and "util/prove6 --perl5 t/some/*.t"?
17:13 [particle] as in, pugs or v6? if i understand correctly, prove6 does v6 by default now.
17:13 agentzh given the maturity of these two implementations, i think prove6 should default to the Haskell pugs
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17:14 [particle] the above syntax looks good, and could include --js and --parrot
17:14 agentzh [particle]: yes, the current prove6 defaults to v6.pm
17:15 agentzh do you think it's okay to change to pugs?
17:16 agentzh the implementations of --js and --parrot are somewhat out of my knowledge, so that's an excercise for someone else. :=)
17:17 [particle] i'd rather it say as v6, as that seems to be the strategic direction, but i don't care so much, 'cause i'll just run C<prove6 --perl ...>
17:18 agentzh okay
17:18 agentzh maybe i should also alias --perl to --perl5 :)
17:18 agentzh and also --v6-alpha
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17:19 agentzh following your advice, i'll make prove6 default to v6.pm then
17:19 [particle] okay. i'm sure it can easily be changed if others disagree.
17:21 agentzh :)
17:24 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
17:35 svnbot6 r11802 | agentz++ | * reimplemented prove6 script using Perl 5, which can harness the pugs test suit with specified implementations.
17:35 svnbot6 r11802 | agentz++ |   util/prove6 --pugs t/some-dir/*.t
17:35 svnbot6 r11802 | agentz++ |   util/prove6 --perl5 t/some-dir/*.t
17:35 svnbot6 r11802 | agentz++ | option aliases --haskell, --perl, --v6-alpha are also supported
17:35 svnbot6 r11802 | agentz++ | XXX add support for other pugs' backends (--js and --parrot)
17:36 agentzh [particle]: it is windows friendly, because i'm using windows. :=)
17:37 agentzh [particle]: i've tested it under cygwin to make sure it's unix-friendly as well.
17:37 [particle] yay. did you remove prove6.bat? (upping)
17:37 agentzh yes, i did
17:37 agentzh win32 users can always say "perl util/prove6 ..."
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17:40 svnbot6 r11803 | agentz++ | fixed a typo in prove6
17:43 agentzh [particle]: it faults to pugs anyway in case that someone else will change the code as you said. :P
17:43 agentzh *defaults
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17:48 * agentzh looks into t/examples/
17:52 * [particle] rebuilds pugs
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17:55 svnbot6 r11804 | agentz++ | multi_sub.t: adjusted the planned number of tests
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18:07 agentzh ?eval (1,2,3).say
18:07 evalbot_11798 is now known as evalbot_11804
18:07 evalbot_11804 OUTPUT[123 ] Bool::True
18:08 agentzh ?eval [1,2,3].say
18:08 evalbot_11804 OUTPUT[1 2 3 ] Bool::True
18:08 agentzh is this difference expected?
18:08 agentzh or is it a bug?
18:09 agentzh examples/slurpy-list-params/flatten-arg-lists.pl fails its tests due to this difference
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18:10 aufrank ?eval my @a = [1, 2, 3]; say @a;
18:10 evalbot_11804 OUTPUT[1 2 3 ] Bool::True
18:10 aufrank ?eval my $a = [1, 2, 3]; say $a;
18:10 evalbot_11804 OUTPUT[1 2 3 ] Bool::True
18:11 agentzh Array objects may be different from Seq
18:11 aufrank ?eval my @a = (1, 2, 3); say @a;
18:11 evalbot_11804 OUTPUT[123 ] Bool::True
18:11 aufrank ?eval my $a = (1, 2, 3); say $a;
18:11 evalbot_11804 OUTPUT[1 2 3 ] Bool::True
18:11 aufrank huh
18:11 aufrank that last one seems to me like the @seq behavior is wrong
18:11 agentzh :)
18:11 agentzh aufrank: will you fix it?
18:12 aufrank not within the next 6-8 hours
18:12 aufrank not on a machine where I have a checkout until later tonight
18:12 agentzh okay
18:12 agentzh never mind
18:12 agentzh i'll just "fix" the tests
18:12 aufrank sorry, I'd do it if I could :)
18:13 agentzh so (1,2,3).say should prints "1 2 3", yes?
18:13 agentzh *print
18:13 xerox ?eval (1,2,3).say
18:13 evalbot_11804 OUTPUT[123 ] Bool::True
18:13 xerox :-)
18:14 agentzh okay, i'll leave that to audreyt
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18:14 agentzh bedtime &
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18:41 aufrank ?eval[,](1, 2, 3).say
18:41 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
18:41 evalbot_11804 OUTPUT[123 ] Bool::True
18:41 aufrank ?eval [,]<1 2 3>.say
18:41 evalbot_11804 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting program
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20:58 nothingmuch gaal: moose
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21:05 gaal moose.
21:05 gaal home-p?
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21:31 nothingmuch gaal: yes
21:31 nothingmuch i had an "interesting" journey
21:31 nothingmuch turns out kaplan is closed after 22:00
21:31 nothingmuch or actually around 21:50
21:32 nothingmuch but at least I got some excercise =)
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21:51 svnbot6 r11805 | Sage++ | The AST description for the parser now contains many, many more nodetypes. I believe this is now an exhaustive list, but I'm not optimistic enough to claim anything for sure.
21:54 svnbot6 r11806 | Sage++ | The parser for the translator now works with the extended AST definition to name all nodes.
21:54 svnbot6 r11806 | Sage++ | At this point, all files should (hopefully) parse with no unknown nodes. This can be checked by running the parser with the -U (Unknown Debug) option.
21:54 svnbot6 r11806 | Sage++ | The parser is, more or less, complete: it parses everything and has a proper name for everything it parses.
21:57 svnbot6 r11807 | Sage++ | Adding the tool I used to get node names. It's very simple and should be pretty self explanatory (useage instructions are in the file), but in the interest of documenting my SoC work I'm including it.
21:57 svnbot6 r11807 | Sage++ | It can find all node names in files in the folder it's run in, or search for instances of a given nodetype in all files in the current folder. Useful for me as a dev tool.
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