Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-07-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:28 clkao nothingmuch: ping
01:30 clkao nothingmuch: your tea is on the way. but the post office said it might take longer due to the war...
01:32 dolmans clkao: which war, war in M.E or ww3?
01:33 clkao are they not the same?
01:33 dolmans not yet
01:33 clkao nothingmuch: i was quite amused reading the mail from my friend.. describing what the postoffice said.
01:33 clkao "we just want tea, and now somehow it involves war!"
01:33 obra ?
01:34 audreyt well that happened in Boston some time ago...
01:38 meppl gugu
01:41 meppl gugu audrey (im drunken again)
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02:10 * rodi wants to have a Boston oolong party
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03:00 bennymack the Shat hit's the fan!
03:00 bennymack william shatner doing standup?!
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03:23 nothingmuch clkao: that's trajically amusing
03:23 nothingmuch thank you!
03:23 * nothingmuch goes back to bed
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03:44 * agentzh ...
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05:22 * agentzh goes to read S05, which is the most exciting part of Perl 6.
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05:42 agentzh gaal: i've completed the download process. feel free to remove that from feather. btw, the original XML file seems to be hundreds of GB or such. what can i do with it please?
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07:08 dduncan fyi, I have now arrived back at home following OSCON
07:09 dduncan assuming no $job distractions of significance, I expect to commit a Set::Relation rewrite that actually works within a week's time
07:09 dduncan that is all
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09:15 dolmans how will the perl6 coroutine (block in ruby) be?
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09:43 daxim joined perl6
09:43 daxim hey barenaked @larries
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10:12 IRCMonkeyx joined perl6
10:13 IRCMonkeyx hi friends, what is difference between perl and perl6 , may i run the same exploits in both ?
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10:21 dolmans difference is too big that i can not say
10:25 IRCMonkeyx !perl6
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10:28 IRCMonkeyx dolmans: i interest in running exploits in perl, may i use perl6 instead of perl
10:34 daxim yes
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10:46 agentzh ?eval proto prefix:<;> ($a) { say "yay!" } ;3
10:46 evalbot_11813 is now known as evalbot_11820
10:46 evalbot_11820 3
10:47 agentzh ?eval proto postfix:<;> ($a) { say $a } ;3;
10:47 evalbot_11820 OUTPUT[3 ] Bool::True
10:47 agentzh ?eval proto postfix:<;> ($a) { say "!a = $a!" } ;3+2;
10:47 evalbot_11820 OUTPUT[!a = 2! ] 4.0
10:48 agentzh where does "4.0" come from?
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10:48 agentzh ?eval proto postfix:<;> ($a) { say "!a = $a!" } ;'abc' x 2;
10:48 evalbot_11820 OUTPUT[!a = 2! ] "abc"
10:49 agentzh ?eval proto prefix:<;> ($a) { say "!a = $a!" };'abc' x 2;
10:49 evalbot_11820 "abcabc"
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10:50 agentzh fglock: it seems that i can define a postfix:<;> in pugs while a prefix:<;> doesn't have any effect. :)
10:50 agentzh ?eval proto postfix:<;> ($a) { say "!a = $a!" } ;3+2;
10:50 evalbot_11820 OUTPUT[!a = 2! ] 4.0
10:51 agentzh okay, now i see why there is a "4.0" at the end. the say function returned 1 in the case of "2;"
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10:51 agentzh pugs++
10:53 daxim ?eval 3+2
10:53 evalbot_11820 5
10:53 daxim hm.
10:53 agentzh ?eval proto postfix:<;> ($a) { 1 } say 3+2;
10:53 evalbot_11820 OUTPUT[4 ] Bool::True
10:53 agentzh see? 3+2; == 4 !
10:53 agentzh yay!
10:54 daxim isn't that cute... but it's wrong! </two_stupid_dogs>
10:54 agentzh postfix:<;> apparently has a higher precedence over infix:<+>
10:55 agentzh ?eval proto infix<;> ($a, $b) { $a+$b } say 3 ; 2
10:55 evalbot_11820 Error:  unexpected "<" expecting "::", comment, "handles", bare trait, subroutine parameters, trait or block
10:55 agentzh ?eval proto infix:<;> ($a, $b) { $a+$b } say 3 ; 2
10:55 evalbot_11820 OUTPUT[5 ] Bool::True
10:55 agentzh wow...awsome indeed!
10:55 agentzh *awesome
10:56 agentzh fglock: infix:<;> overriding also works!
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10:56 b_jonas agentzh: that reminds me of overriding , in c++
10:57 agentzh but Perl 6's much more powerful!
10:57 agentzh in C++, one can't override C<;>
10:57 b_jonas yes
10:58 b_jonas but look at this:
10:58 pasteling "b_jonas" at 81.182.25.192 pasted "overriding the comma operator in c++ in a program that compiles in c and c++ but differently" (10 lines, 334B) at http://sial.org/pbot/18692
10:59 agentzh b_jonas: it looks scary to me.
10:59 agentzh some new stuff in the new C/C++ standards?
11:00 b_jonas no, it's nothing new I think
11:00 b_jonas in C it doesn't override anything
11:00 agentzh i didn't know C can override operators
11:00 b_jonas it can't
11:00 b_jonas in C that override declaration parses completely differently
11:00 b_jonas should I explain it?
11:01 agentzh yes, please
11:02 b_jonas ok, let's start with what C sees
11:02 agentzh ah, i see!
11:02 b_jonas the trick's in line 3
11:02 agentzh operator is parsed as a C variable, right?
11:02 b_jonas yes
11:03 agentzh :=)
11:03 agentzh "operator" is not a keyword in C, yes!
11:03 b_jonas so c sees just struct { struct hypergeom fooperator, number; } function;
11:03 agentzh nod
11:04 agentzh it's somewhat confusing at first glance. ;-)
11:04 b_jonas yes, it's written like that
11:05 agentzh thanks for the funny code
11:05 b_jonas it was a reply to when a friend wrote codes that ran in multiple languages but with slightly different output
11:05 b_jonas wait, I'll link that
11:05 agentzh okay!
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11:06 agentzh it sounds amusing
11:06 b_jonas bottom of http://www.inf.bme.hu/~pts/index__en.html
11:06 lambdabot Title: pts oldalai
11:06 agentzh looking...
11:06 b_jonas and http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=521141 too
11:06 lambdabot Title: a poem
11:07 b_jonas no wait the second link's bad
11:07 b_jonas a variant of the code at the first link was posted on perlmonks
11:08 agentzh aye
11:08 agentzh thanks for the link!
11:08 b_jonas uh where was it
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11:08 agentzh i should add them to my google notebook. ;-)
11:09 b_jonas anyway he's showed me some sneaky ways to distinguish between c and c++ like that
11:09 agentzh a program that can be accepted by so many different interpreters/compilers is really interesting
11:09 b_jonas one's using scoping rules, one's using the fact that struct tags are optional in c++, these are similar ideas and I think this one's based on one of them as well
11:10 agentzh heh
11:10 b_jonas so then I tried to find other ways
11:10 b_jonas one's this operator thing
11:10 agentzh maybe i should show them to my classmates and mentors
11:11 b_jonas I tried to find one using types that are built in one but not the other (there's one in either direction) but I failed
11:11 b_jonas but all the solutions I knew used "sizeof" somewhere
11:11 b_jonas I tried to find one without sizeof but failed again
11:11 agentzh sizeof?
11:11 b_jonas and asked him and he could create one without sizeof
11:11 b_jonas agentzh: yes, it's in both my code and the partridge poem
11:12 b_jonas just search for it
11:12 agentzh gotcha
11:12 agentzh the difference between C/C++ structs leads to different behavior
11:12 agentzh *behaviors
11:13 b_jonas oh, I mean the "On the first day of Christmas..." one not the "The program that speaks ten languages" btw
11:14 agentzh there're a lot of sizeof's in these programs. :=)
11:14 b_jonas yes. the sizeofless solution is also based on the scopig difference
11:15 agentzh *nod*
11:19 b_jonas I can't find the perlmonks post now sorry
11:19 * agentzh is still wondering why prefix:<;> doesn't work as expected in pugs
11:19 agentzh b_jonas: np :)
11:21 agentzh thank you for showing me these programs. that's very funny
11:21 agentzh i'll print them out and examine them carefully. :=)
11:26 agentzh can anyone here access svn.perl.org?
11:27 agentzh it's down i think
11:29 agentzh there's no tests for overriding prefix:<;>, infix:<;>, or postfix:<;> in t/. should i add some?
11:31 agentzh TimToady, audreyt: please clarify the expected behaviors of overriding `;` first, or i have no way to judge whether my tests are correct or not.
11:34 Juerd agentzh: I forgot one line in my mail, making it look way too serious... Happy hacking! :)
11:34 agentzh Juerd: sure!
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11:53 agentzh ?eval proto infix:<;> ($a, $b) { $a + $b } say 3 ; 2
11:53 evalbot_11820 OUTPUT[5 ] Bool::True
11:53 agentzh ?eval proto infix:<;> ($a, $b) { $a + $b } say (3 ; 2)
11:53 evalbot_11820 OUTPUT[5 ] Bool::True
11:54 agentzh ?eval proto infix:<;> ($a, $b) { $a + $b } (3 ; 2) eq 5
11:54 evalbot_11820 Bool::True
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12:04 agentzh anyone knows how to restrict a multi definition within a lexical scope?
12:04 agentzh or is it possible?
12:05 Aankhen`` my multi foo { ... } # doesn't this work?
12:05 agentzh i'll try. thanks!
12:06 b_jonas uh. can you override just one prototype of multi foo lexically, or just a complete set of multis?
12:07 agentzh Aankhen``: yay! the tests pass now! thank you!
12:07 Aankhen`` Cool.
12:07 Aankhen`` You're welcome. :-)
12:07 agentzh b_jonas: no clue :(
12:08 dolmans how to implement a grep function which eats a code block and an array, test_grep { $_ > 1 } @a?
12:08 agentzh i've just found a conversation among fglock, audreyt, and pmichaud. they were talking about weird things like infix:<;> and infix<if> in details
12:09 agentzh dolmans: test_grep { $_ > 1 }, @a
12:09 agentzh dolmans: the comma i think is mandatory
12:10 dolmans ya
12:10 agentzh sub test_grep (Code &block, @list) { ... }
12:10 b_jonas because you can lexically override just one multi in c++ but that's because there multis are dispatched compile-time. it'd probably be more difficult in perl6 as there they're somtimes dispatched run-time, aren't they?
12:11 agentzh dolmans: see the decl above
12:11 * dolmans giving agentzh's snippets a shot
12:12 agentzh b_jonas: yes
12:13 agentzh dolmans: what do you mean please?
12:15 dolmans agentzh: i just test your solution, it worked, great.
12:15 agentzh dolmans: yay!
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12:33 svnbot6 r11821 | agentz++ | [t/operators/operator_overloading.t]
12:33 svnbot6 r11821 | agentz++ | added (passing) tests for overriding infix:<;>, postfix:<;>, and infix:<if>. (TimToady: please check the sanity)
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12:44 agentzh according to audreyt's remarks on 2006-04-18, infix:<;> and infix:<if> can be overridden by the user:
12:44 agentzh http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2006-04-18,Tue#l604
12:44 lambdabot Title: #perl6 2006-04-18,Tue
12:47 agentzh does anyone think that there should be a synbot (synopses bot) around here? so that we can refer to the language spec quickly
12:47 nothingmuch infix if?
12:47 nothingmuch hmm
12:47 nothingmuch that would be nice
12:47 agentzh nothingmuch: yes
12:47 nothingmuch s 03 pattern?
12:47 nothingmuch 1 if 4 ?
12:47 agentzh maybe
12:47 pmichaud ...infix:<if> ?  I thought it was statement_modifier:<if>
12:48 agentzh but i think we should add "tags" or "keywords" to synopses
12:48 agentzh or we will only find too much crap
12:48 nothingmuch agentzh: look at how the test/syn cross reference stuff works
12:48 nothingmuch we can put little superscript 't' links everywhere
12:48 nothingmuch that's a good start
12:48 agentzh pmichaud: so you think it's incorrect to define infix:<if>?
12:49 pmichaud if isn't really "infix", since only one can occur in a statement
12:49 agentzh nothingmuch: yes, i see the HTML pages from gaal
12:49 pmichaud 3 if 4 if 5    <-- error, I think
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12:50 agentzh pmichard: so user can define his infix:<if> anyway?
12:50 agentzh pmichaud: given that there's no more than 1 if in the statement?
12:51 pmichaud well, if someone defines infix:<if>, it will probably hide statement_modifier:<if>
12:51 agentzh pmichaud: yes
12:51 agentzh that's what S04 says i think
12:51 * pmichaud notes that S02 shows statement_modifier:<if>
12:52 pmichaud (S04 doesn't seem to say anything about infix vs statement_modifier)
12:52 pmichaud (nor would I expect it to :-)
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12:59 agentzh sorry, IRC faiure :(
13:00 agentzh pmichard: why don't you expect it to?
13:00 agentzh pmichaud: why don't you expect it to?
13:00 agentzh pmichaud: i think the synopses should clarify this, or i can't write meaningful tests
13:00 pmichaud because defining infix:<if> would be veryrare
13:01 pmichaud I don't know that the synopses should describe what happens in every case where someone chooses to override a default behavior :-)
13:01 agentzh so S04 should outlaw this thing?
13:01 agentzh pmichaud: okay, got you
13:01 pmichaud no, it's not outlawed, it's just not common enough to warrant describing
13:02 pmichaud we'll save it for "Truly Evil Perl 6 Hacks" or something like that
13:02 pmichaud :-)
13:02 agentzh hence, we should not add a test infix:<if> in pugs's test suit?
13:02 agentzh should we?
13:03 pmichaud I think that infix:<if> is incorrect, so we shouldn't test for it
13:03 agentzh OK
13:03 agentzh then how about infix:<;> and postfix:<;> ?
13:03 pmichaud those should be tested for, yes, those are valid operators
13:03 agentzh and prefix:<;> ?
13:04 nothingmuch agentzh: i suggest you use e.g. feather + screen + irssi if you want to keep history when your dialup goes away
13:04 agentzh do you think prefix:<;> should be tested?
13:04 pmichaud (at least, infix:<;> should be tested)
13:04 pmichaud I haven't seen a postfix:<;> or prefix:<;> -- I wouldn't expect those to be defined
13:04 agentzh nothingmuch: thanks
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13:05 agentzh maybe ask larry to define them?
13:05 pmichaud why?
13:05 * agentzh is kidding
13:06 pmichaud oh.  I agree it sometimes *looks* like we're defining every combination :-)
13:06 * pmichaud still hasn't gotten used to prefix:<=>  :-)
13:06 agentzh prefix:<=> is the iterating operator, no?
13:07 * agentzh grins
13:07 agentzh pmichard: thanks for the clarification :)
13:07 pmichaud yes, prefix:<=> is iterator
13:08 pmichaud agentzh: anytime
13:08 agentzh *pmichaud/
13:08 pmichaud agentzh: btw, you've been doing a great job on the synopsis updates
13:08 agentzh pmichaud: :)
13:08 agentzh pmichaud: thanks!
13:08 pmichaud looks like it's time for me to board plane soon
13:08 pmichaud be back tomorrow
13:08 agentzh pmichaud: have a nice trip!
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13:12 agentzh nothingmuch: what do you think of adding tags or keywords to every part (or even every paragraph in some cases) of the synopses?
13:13 agentzh so tests can be specified with defined tags
13:14 agentzh and the cross-references between the tests and the synopses can be more friendly
13:14 svnbot6 r11822 | dug++ | - Added a test for multiline comments extended POD syntax
13:14 svnbot6 r11822 | dug++ | - Added self to AUTHORS
13:50 * agentzh thinks pugs' Test.pm should be improved a bit
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14:14 agentzh can anyone tell me why END {...} doesn't run at all in Test.pm? weird.
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14:18 agentzh audreyt: END {...} in ext/Test/lib/Test.pm doesn't run (even without the .pm.yml stuff).
14:18 agentzh audreyt: however, a simple abc.pm with an END block works fine here. weird.
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14:19 * agentzh gives up debugging Test.pm
14:20 agentzh hopefully this issue will vanish automatically tomorrow morning. :)
14:21 agentzh seen audreyt
14:21 jabbot agentzh: audreyt was seen 12 hours 35 minutes 6 seconds ago
14:21 agentzh thanks, jabbot
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14:29 svnbot6 r11823 | agentz++ | [t/operators/operator_overloading.t]
14:29 svnbot6 r11823 | agentz++ | reverted the tests for postfix:<;> and infix:<if> (tests for infix:<;> and prefix:<if> remain intact)
14:29 svnbot6 r11823 | agentz++ | added clarification from pmichaud++ as comments
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14:38 * agentzh runs "nmake test-js" for the first time in his life.
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14:43 agentzh the JS backend seems to segfault on Win32. :-/
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14:46 dolmans i can use `sort &infix:<cmp>, @a; ' to sort an array, so how can i reverse the &infix:<cmp> function to get a reversed sorted array. i just didn't remember the 'reverse function' jargon on FP.
14:55 dolmans ah yes, implement one this sort of function transformer is easy. wonder perl6 would provide some or not.
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15:00 agentzh dolmans: perl6 provides a "reverse" builtin anyway :-)
15:01 agentzh dolmans: reverse sort &infix:<cmp>, @a
15:01 agentzh dolmans: though it's not very efficient
15:03 dolmans agentzh: that's not what exactly i want. i want a function transformer not a list reverser.
15:03 agentzh dolmans: yes, i know
15:04 dolmans something like sub reverse_func (&bf) { -> $a, $b {&bf($b, $a)} };
15:04 agentzh i haven't seen such function transformers in Perl 6
15:04 agentzh does prefix:<-> work?
15:05 dolmans not tested, but trying now
15:05 agentzh IIRC, infix:<cmp> returns -1, 0, and 1
15:05 agentzh ?eval 'a' cmp 'b'
15:05 evalbot_11820 is now known as evalbot_11823
15:05 evalbot_11823 -1
15:05 agentzh ?eval 'b' cmp 'a'
15:05 evalbot_11823 1
15:05 agentzh ?eval 'a' cmp 'a'
15:05 evalbot_11823 0
15:06 dolmans nope.
15:06 agentzh ?eval sort { - ($^a cmp $^b) }, 'a'..'b'
15:06 evalbot_11823 ("b", "a")
15:06 gaal -> \$ab { -(cmp(*$ab)) } # when captures work
15:06 gaal probably the outer parens are not needed
15:07 agentzh ?eval sort { - ($^a cmp $^b) }, ('a'..'b')
15:07 evalbot_11823 ("b", "a")
15:07 agentzh ?eval sort { - ($^a cmp $^b) }, ('a'..'d')
15:07 evalbot_11823 ("d", "c", "b", "a")
15:07 agentzh yay!
15:08 agentzh ?eval sort { -cmp($^a,$^b) }, ('a'..'d')
15:08 evalbot_11823 Error: No such sub: "&cmp"
15:08 gaal we can call this reverse comparator pmc for *yet another* meaning
15:08 agentzh gaal: how big is the XML file please?
15:09 agentzh i think my program is lying to me
15:09 gaal agentzh: probably 5 gb or so?
15:09 dolmans pmc? very cute and perish.
15:09 agentzh pmc has too much meanings...
15:09 agentzh *too many
15:10 agentzh gaal: thanks
15:10 agentzh gaal: my program told me the file is hundreds of GB this morning
15:10 agentzh gaal: i was really frightened. ;-)
15:11 agentzh gaal: i've already got it. feel free to remove the file from feather
15:11 gaal agentzh: see /msg :)
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15:19 nothingmuch gaal: moose
15:19 gaal nothingmuch: elk
15:19 nothingmuch thanks again for hosting us
15:19 gaal sure thing!
15:19 gaal next time s/could be longer
15:20 nothingmuch aye
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15:22 agentzh when i added outputing code outside of the END {...} in ext/Test/lib/Test.pm, i could see the outputs when running tests
15:23 agentzh but if i inserted "warn..." into END {...} itself, i couldn't see any outputs then
15:32 agentzh what is the command to run pugs' PIR backend?
15:33 agentzh okay, i've found that in Makefile
15:34 agentzh woot! prove6 supports the --pir and its alias --parrot options now
15:36 agentzh the PIR backend fails some tests on my machine. probably it's caused by my outdated parrot. ;-)
15:42 svnbot6 r11824 | agentz++ | [util/prove6]
15:42 svnbot6 r11824 | agentz++ | added support for the --pir option and its alias --parrot:
15:42 svnbot6 r11824 | agentz++ |   util/prove6 --pir t/some-dir/*.t
15:43 agentzh please test util/prove6. :)
15:47 agentzh sleep &
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16:51 nothingmuch audreyt: YAML::Syck seems to emit Headless in a funny way (indentation issues)... if I fix in the next day or two is it OK to just release
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16:53 audreyt sure
16:53 audreyt make sure to not include mugwump's new test in the release
16:54 audreyt that -hooks.t need to be replaced with DDS_freeze based impl
16:56 nothingmuch okay
16:56 nothingmuch btw
16:57 nothingmuch i'd also like YAML::Node in a separate dir
16:57 nothingmuch dist
16:57 nothingmuch so that people can create YAML::Node apis to their modules
16:57 nothingmuch that work with either YAML or YAML::Syck
16:57 nothingmuch the purpose being pretty printing output
16:57 nothingmuch when writing files that are supposed to be for humans i'd like to sometimes explicitly choose what quoting style to use, for example
17:02 obra Hi
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17:09 b_jonas I don't like the YAML module because it's definitely not compatible with the ruby YAML module and I belive the ruby one is closer to the specs
17:10 b_jonas but there's some hope it'll improve as older versions often couldn't even read what they wrote out
17:12 obra b_jonas: you mean YAML.pm?
17:12 * obra seems to recall that YAML.pm predated the spec
17:14 b_jonas yes, the perl5 thing on cpan
17:15 b_jonas maybe it has, I don't know, but if I can't use them to transfer data between two languages then there's no point in using it
17:15 b_jonas if I just want to serialize something for a single language, there are better alternatives
17:15 b_jonas but you can blame me because I should write bug reports about it
17:15 b_jonas and I'm lazy to do that
17:16 b_jonas so it's also my fault
17:16 obra YAML::Syck should treat you better, though, as it uses libsyck
17:16 obra Written by none other than why himself
17:16 b_jonas oh. thanks, I might try that
17:16 obra no problem
17:17 audreyt b_jonas: also ingy updated YAML.pm a bit so it's more compat
17:17 audreyt but definitely YAML::Syck with ImplicitTyping on
17:17 b_jonas let me see if I have the newest version...
17:17 audreyt should behave exactly the same as the Ruby one
17:17 audreyt because it's the same code.
17:18 b_jonas is it? does the ruby one use libsyck as well?
17:19 audreyt yes.
17:19 audreyt libsyck is written for ruby core :)
17:19 audreyt (bbl, food)
17:20 b_jonas no, I have 0.58 installed and the newest is YAML-0.62 it seems
17:20 b_jonas thanks
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17:37 nothingmuch hmm
17:37 nothingmuch i can't reproduce my bug
17:40 nothingmuch vely odd
17:41 nothingmuch ingy: ping
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17:58 nothingmuch http://scsys.co.uk:8001/3045
17:58 lambdabot Title: perl_web paste from "nothingmuch" at 81.29.65.220...
17:58 nothingmuch audreyt: please see what you think
17:58 nothingmuch IMHO YAML::Syck is more correct here
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20:55 svnbot6 r11825 | fglock++ | pX/Pugs-Compiler-Rule - added static capture count to Regex; needs additional runtime work
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21:25 svnbot6 r11826 | fglock++ | pX/Pugs-Compiler-Rule - fixed an extra capture in quantified Regex
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22:16 aufrank hey all
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