Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-07-31

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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02:40 aufrank anyone around?
02:41 audreyt not me
02:41 audreyt <- at pdx airport
02:41 audreyt but I guess I'll be around for an hour or so :)
02:42 aufrank do you know if TT or Mr. Bunce put their slides online?
02:42 aufrank (hi!)
02:42 audreyt TT's slides will appear on perl.com in a few weeks, usually
02:43 audreyt TimToady probably has a copy of script somewhere in his hard driv, though, so maybe you can ask him to nopaste it :)
02:43 audreyt not sure about tim bunce; mail him?
02:43 audreyt (hi!)
02:43 audreyt thedamian usually does not post his slides online.
02:43 aufrank ok, probably will do that tomorrow
02:44 audreyt cool
02:44 aufrank did you read tim bray's entry about perl6 and parrot?
02:44 aufrank http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/Wh​en/200x/2006/07/29/P-Languages
02:44 lambdabot Title: ongoing &#xb7; OSCON&#x2014;Perl &#x26; Python
02:44 audreyt no. reading
02:45 aufrank I think we've already got the unicode string handling he's so excited about in python 3, eh?
02:45 aufrank it's specced that way, at least
02:46 audreyt right.
02:46 audreyt also docs/notes/unicode_draft.
02:46 audreyt but not coded that way yet, no. though perl5 can use some retroporting
02:47 audreyt to get the same sort of sane behaviour, that is
02:47 aufrank so I've been kicking around an idea, and I can't tell if it would be useful or not
02:47 audreyt pray tell
02:47 aufrank I was reading the atom spec that is written in the compact relaxNG syntax
02:48 aufrank and the compact syntax is quite, um, compact
02:48 aufrank it would fit into a pretty easy grammar, I think
02:49 aufrank so I started thinking that if you had a grammar that parsed arbitrary compact relaxng schemas, you could use the match object to build perl6 classes out of the schemas
02:49 aufrank and then use those classes to build parsers for instances of the schema
02:50 aufrank which would give you well-formed objects
02:50 aufrank which could then be serialized any way you wanted
02:50 audreyt have you read emeijer's X/O paper? :)
02:51 aufrank similarly, if you parsed schemas into roles, you could then emit well-formed documents for anything that did the role
02:51 aufrank no, I did not
02:51 audreyt ok. it's a step by step recipe of how to do that :)
02:51 aufrank is it linked on your site right now?
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02:51 audreyt http://homepages.cwi.nl/~r​alf/xo-impedance-mismatch/
02:51 audreyt yes
02:51 lambdabot Title: Revealing the X/O impedance mismatch
02:51 aufrank excellent
02:51 aufrank I'll grab a copy
02:51 audreyt but yes, having that technology would be great
02:52 audreyt actually it could be built on Moose
02:52 audreyt using PCR and friends
02:52 AppleIver hi all
02:52 aufrank yeah, I think we've got what we need to do it
02:52 audreyt AppleIver: greetings.
02:52 aufrank hi AppleIver
02:52 audreyt aufrank: yup. just need to implement the encoding
02:52 audreyt I mean embedding
02:52 AppleIver what you talk about?
02:53 robkinyon joined perl6
02:53 audreyt AppleIver: making classes out from XML schema
02:53 aufrank audreyt: first step would be a p6 grammar of http://www.oasis-open.org/committe​es/relax-ng/compact-20021121.html ?
02:53 lambdabot Title: RELAX NG Compact Syntax
02:53 AppleIver it's great!
02:54 audreyt aufrank: EBNF2rules?
02:55 AppleIver audreyt where are u from?
02:56 audreyt aufrank: take http://search.cpan.org/dist/Parse-EBNF/ and emit PCR?
02:56 lambdabot Title: Cal Henderson / Parse-EBNF - search.cpan.org
02:56 audreyt aufrank: I think that's perhaps easiest path
02:56 audreyt AppleIver: I'm from audreyt.org and pugs.blogs.com
02:56 aufrank audreyt: I wasn't aware of that module-- good place to start for sure
02:56 * audreyt enjoys this "CPAN: The Gathering" game :)
02:57 aufrank audreyt: also satisfyingly general
02:57 aufrank audreyt: I keep meaning to ask about your history with M:tG
02:57 AppleIver c++?
02:58 aufrank did/do you play much?
02:58 nothingmuch aufrank: moose
02:58 nothingmuch can you post the summary?
02:58 aufrank nothingmuch: sure.  of what ;)
02:59 nothingmuch oop
02:59 nothingmuch audreyt: ping =)
02:59 audreyt aufrank: I quit a few years back. I was playing quite competetively -- top 8 in asia pacific championships, a couple showing at worlds -- but that's all before I discovered the far more satisfying cpan: the gathering
02:59 nothingmuch competitive sports is not much fun =/
03:00 audreyt especially with a bunch of barely showered teenage males!
03:00 clkao (!)
03:00 nothingmuch oh no! males!
03:00 audreyt nothingmuch: posting
03:00 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/may.html
03:00 nothingmuch use that
03:00 nothingmuch it's got better html
03:00 audreyt moose
03:00 SamB cpan: the gathering?
03:01 SamB who publishes that?
03:01 audreyt SamB: cpan.org
03:01 nothingmuch wait, don't use that yet
03:01 SamB audreyt: how is it played?
03:01 nothingmuch now you may use it as it is actually longer than 0 bytes
03:02 nothingmuch SamB: it may or may not involve drinking
03:02 SamB it isn't a TCG?
03:02 audreyt SamB: in normal constructed play, you build a deck (also known as a stack) using about 60 CPAN modules
03:02 audreyt the trick is that 90% of CPAN is useless to your tasks
03:02 aufrank nothingmuch: you use Quantum::Superposition for the CPAN drinking game?
03:02 audreyt and some modules don't play well together
03:02 nothingmuch http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perl​6-Bible/lib/Perl6/Bible/S27.pod
03:02 lambdabot Title: Synopsis_27 - Perl Culture [DRAFT] - search.cpan.org
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03:02 nothingmuch audreyt: i've never actually played =/
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03:02 aufrank I built an all ACME deck once
03:03 audreyt so you'll have to pick and choose the one that has synnergy, those that APIs fit together, so it can run smoothly
03:03 audreyt also, it's a trading card game, so sometime you will have to trade your modules for other people's
03:03 audreyt and build new modules in exchange of new features in other modules that use them
03:03 audreyt also, just like MtG, new generations of modules come at a very fast pace
03:04 audreyt so you'll have to continuously look at the "recents" catalog and remember new cards, what they are useful for, and their fluctuating popularity
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03:05 audreyt most newcomers download deck lists from reputable sites like "cpan advent" or "perl.com"
03:05 aufrank a couple of modules are just totally overpowered and lead to changes in the core mechanics
03:05 audreyt but most of the fun comes from unearthing previously-thought-as-uninteresting modules
03:05 aufrank like Switch.pm
03:05 audreyt and turn them into interesting combinations
03:06 audreyt yes. we refer to them as "broken"
03:06 aufrank I didn't want to call Switch.pm broken in this channel ;)
03:06 SamB they don't allow that kind of thing in Haskell...
03:06 audreyt the core team eventually updated the core mechanics for that, making it a new keyword ability
03:06 aufrank thought I might call some of your wackier preprocessor antics broken =P
03:07 nothingmuch acme++
03:07 nothingmuch ingy++
03:07 audreyt and of course, the Sith Edition Rules are totally simplified and would require some relearning...
03:07 nothingmuch we need to play that game at my next birthday
03:07 audreyt *Sixth Edition
03:07 aufrank Sith Edition
03:07 aufrank priceless
03:07 audreyt incidentally, I was part of the expert team helping drafting MtG's Sixth Edition rules...
03:08 audreyt and that was the last time the rule changed in a major way
03:08 audreyt everything worked flawlessly since then.
03:08 nothingmuch you seem to weasel your way into various expert groups fairly consistently
03:08 nothingmuch SamB: did you know that unicode is turing complete because of audreyt?
03:08 nothingmuch ;-)
03:08 SamB turing complete is it?
03:08 SamB it has symbols for turing machines?
03:08 nothingmuch IIRC there was a fixed point combinator somewhere
03:08 aufrank I heard audreyt invented an internet that actually is a series of tubes, and not a big truck
03:09 nothingmuch or maybe that was a joke
03:09 audreyt nothingmuch: that was a joke
03:09 nothingmuch see also ';-)' 4 lines up
03:09 SamB where is the internet that is a big truck?
03:09 nothingmuch audreyt: thanks for posting summary
03:10 audreyt SamB: the .html is ready?
03:10 audreyt er sorry.
03:10 audreyt nothingmuch: the .html is ready?
03:10 SamB heh
03:11 aufrank ok, I've got to climb into bed and do some reading for $work
03:11 audreyt SamB: I was referring to the IDEOGRAPHIC DESCRIPTION CHARACTER characters, which allows for fractal-building algorithm in unicode
03:11 SamB oh?
03:11 nothingmuch audreyt: yes, i told you that it wasn't 0 length anymore =)
03:12 nothingmuch PAY ATTENTION WOMAN!
03:12 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/may.html <-- here
03:12 lambdabot Title:
03:12 audreyt SamB: i.e. you can say "I have a grapheme here. its upper side is "X", its lower left is "Y", its lower right is yet another composed char, which has the upper side as ..."
03:12 nothingmuch hmm, i should add a title
03:12 nothingmuch to the template
03:12 nothingmuch *shrug*
03:12 nothingmuch note amazingly cool rt ticket autolinkfying
03:12 nothingmuch and <msgid:...> based links
03:12 aufrank audreyt: are you flying back to boston, all the way home, or are you still wandering (while presumably not lost)?
03:12 audreyt SamB: however, recursion depth is currently limited. so I joked that we should have a IDEOGRAPHIC DESCRIPTION CHARACTER FIXPOINT
03:12 audreyt SamB: then it will be turing complete
03:12 nothingmuch which refer to named anchors when the thread is in the summary
03:13 nothingmuch but point to the archives when it is hidden
03:13 nothingmuch SHAZAAAAM
03:13 SamB audreyt: heh
03:13 aufrank nothingmuch++ # fancy linkifying
03:13 audreyt just like SQL and its "WITH RECURSIVE" selects
03:15 nothingmuch aufrank: http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Mail-Summary-Tools
03:15 lambdabot Title: Index of /Mail-Summary-Tools
03:15 nothingmuch it should be updated with this weekend's hacking by tomorrow
03:15 nothingmuch and on the CPAN within a few days
03:15 audreyt aufrank: pdx -> sea -> tpe (tthat's .tw) in 48 hrs
03:15 nothingmuch although i doubt you actually care ;-)
03:15 nothingmuch good night folks
03:15 lollan joined perl6
03:15 * nothingmuch adhers to the /away message that has been set for the past 4 hours
03:15 audreyt nothingmuch: 'nite. (posted, btw.)
03:16 aufrank audreyt: good luck with the traveling!
03:16 nothingmuch http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2006​/07/the_perl_6_summ_1.html#more # EDOUBLEESCAPEDHTML
03:16 audreyt # FIXEDTHANKS
03:16 nothingmuch <h2> not allowed?
03:17 nothingmuch i can emit with alternate headers, like the use.perl html
03:17 audreyt no it's a misclick. nox  fixed
03:17 audreyt *now
03:18 nothingmuch audreyt++
03:18 nothingmuch kudra++
03:18 nothingmuch *poof*
03:18 audreyt kudra++ nothingmuch++
03:18 aufrank ok, gnight all.  congrats on what seems to have been a good OSCON!
03:19 audreyt nite aufrank :)
03:19 merlyn Yeah, wished I could have been there.  But since they haven't invented cloning or teleportation yet...
03:19 * audreyt prepares for boarding
03:19 aufrank merlyn: how'd the cruise go?
03:19 audreyt well, cloning is actually available, but probably not the variant of cloning that can help you...
03:20 merlyn the cruise was great.  very very warm in europe though
03:20 aufrank glad to hear it went well :)
03:20 SamB also we don't have the mind-transfer thing
03:20 merlyn pompeii was amazing
03:20 aufrank I bet
03:21 merlyn and finally seeing classic sites like the colliseeum of rome, etc
03:21 cmarcelo audreyt: hi! how's going? when will you be online again (supposing "boarding" => leaving)?
03:21 aufrank enjoyed the new article, btw
03:21 audreyt cmarcelo: hi! going quite well. will be online again in... I think 48 hours
03:22 audreyt will pop in from airport(s) if possible
03:22 audreyt but not guaranteed
03:22 merlyn I'm flying for 16 hours today too.
03:22 merlyn west though.  so it'll be a Very Long Monday
03:22 cmarcelo audreyt: in what timezone will you be?
03:22 audreyt will stay on land for an entire month (or maybe more) after this
03:22 merlyn depart rome 11am, arrive portland 8pm
03:22 audreyt cmarcelo: CST, that's GMT+800
03:23 merlyn 9 timezones in th emiddle
03:23 audreyt but I'll still be part of the Pacific Standard Tribe
03:23 audreyt at least for a week or so, I think
03:24 cmarcelo ok... re soc: i'll notify haskell-cafe (when my gmail.com connection come back) about progress and will move towards MArray, DiffArray and family..
03:26 audreyt *nod* does ByteString all work with .Map?
03:28 cmarcelo audreyt: as far as i tested yes. =) it's the best choice for both map types.. tested with checkdup example and with the Atom/Intern experiment...
03:28 audreyt cmarcelo: also, re "reevaluate benefits"
03:29 hikozaem_ joined perl6
03:29 audreyt Bulat's comment about Arrays is mostly because Perl's idea of "Arrays" and his idea about arrays are not neccessarily the same thing :)
03:29 audreyt for fixed-size arrays with no "holes" between elements, surely Judy cannot be any faster
03:30 wolverian heh, I see pugs.blogs.com uses the new MS fonts.. they're nice
03:30 audreyt the use case for pugs's "arrays" is @x with @x[0] set and @x[1000000] set but nothing in between; in that case regular arrays are going to consume a lot of memory
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03:31 cmarcelo audreyt: hmmm
03:31 audreyt and though I think bulat's library does array resizing, it does so by a O(n) memcpy into another memchunk
03:31 audreyt and so is the least efficient possible way to do that
03:32 audreyt so I'd say it's different meaning we attach to the term "array"
03:32 audreyt bottom line is that it's good to offer choices as long as the interface are similar enough.
03:32 cmarcelo audreyt: is it indeed very common in perl this use case you described?
03:33 audreyt skip arrays?
03:34 cmarcelo case: @x[0] and @x[10000000] set and nothing in between...
03:34 hikozae__ joined perl6
03:35 * cmarcelo don't know what is "skip arrays".. just learn last week what's exact is list context =o) [by reading Learning Perl hehe]
03:35 audreyt s/skip/sparse/
03:35 cmarcelo oh
03:36 cmarcelo well, skip arrays, are they really *that* common?
03:37 audreyt sorry, "sparse array" is the correct term
03:38 cmarcelo I see that Judy could benefit this cases, but I feel that they're a few specialized ones..
03:39 audreyt *nod* honestly, I do not know how common it will be for perl6, or if it will be the default.
03:39 audreyt I know, however, that sparse arrays has come in p6l a few times and it'd be nice to have it as the default container type for arrays
03:40 audreyt and also that pugs currently use a very slow sparse array as default contianer for arrays
03:40 audreyt and also that parrot currently uses a faster sparse array as default container for arrays
03:40 cmarcelo the default is a sparse one?
03:40 audreyt in both pugs and parrot currently, yes
03:42 cmarcelo well, at least we'll catch up with parrot =)..
03:43 audreyt yeah. the current pugs one is horrible :)
03:43 audreyt it doesn't segfault immediately like p5 when you do $_[999999999] = 1
03:43 audreyt but the lazy population is still linear
03:43 audreyt and so could still take a long time
03:43 audreyt and JudyL will definitely help.
03:45 audreyt this is currently O(1) in parrot:
03:45 audreyt .loadlib 'perl_group'
03:45 audreyt .sub main $P0 = new .PerlArray $P0[999999999] = 1
03:45 audreyt .end
03:45 audreyt er
03:45 cmarcelo but, as I see, it's enough to use already existing Map2 (aka JudyL) for this then? (ie. no need new api)
03:45 audreyt .loadlib 'perl_group'
03:45 audreyt .sub main
03:45 audreyt    $P0 = new .PerlArray
03:45 audreyt    $P0[999999999] = 1
03:45 audreyt .end
03:45 audreyt (though with another "9" it would overflow)
03:46 audreyt yes, I think it would be sufficient without new api
03:46 audreyt I wonder if Map2 is better named IntMap...
03:48 hikozaemon joined perl6
03:48 cmarcelo probably yes.. my name choices were all very odd.. is the Array stuff "near" that IHash and friends?
03:49 audreyt it's src/Pugs/Types/Array.hs
03:49 audreyt look for
03:49 audreyt instance ArrayClass IArray where
03:50 audreyt and note the hideously typedef'ed IArray
03:50 audreyt type IArray             = TVar (IntMap (IVar VScalar))
03:51 cmarcelo there's a on-going change on AST, right? this Pugs/Types are kind of independent of this change, right?
03:51 audreyt not entirely independent
03:51 audreyt but the Pugs/Types/*.hs
03:51 audreyt should be reusable
03:51 audreyt that is, the instance definitions
03:52 audreyt will be reudsable
03:52 audreyt so if you make IArray retypedefed into Judy and the instance sitll work
03:53 audreyt it'll just need minimal retooling (probably automatable) to be used by new CapInternals AST
03:53 audreyt (hopefully I'm making some sort of sense :))
03:54 hikozaem_ joined perl6
03:54 cmarcelo yes.. at least until /CapInternals/ =o)
03:54 cmarcelo Cap = Captures ?
03:54 nirgle joined perl6
03:55 audreyt yeah
03:55 * nirgle woves
03:55 * nirgle waves
03:55 audreyt new-ast-based-on-the-capture/​signature-calling-convention
03:55 audreyt nirgle: *particles*
03:55 nirgle dual
03:55 cmarcelo which Syn describes that?
03:56 audreyt S06
03:58 hikoza___ joined perl6
04:00 svnbot6 r11830 | audreyt++ | * Perl6::FAQ::Capture - remove prefix * and change it to prefix [,]
04:01 cmarcelo hmm. for doing pop and unshift would be necessary call (sort . keys) to discover what element should be popped/unshifted.. because judyL doesnt guarantee any order at all.. i wonder if it's too much overhead?
04:01 audreyt judyl is ordered no?
04:01 audreyt only JudyHS is unordered
04:01 audreyt judyl is sorted
04:02 cmarcelo just a sec
04:03 audreyt in particular, judyLPrev etc guarantees sorted order
04:03 audreyt would be somewhat pointless if we had to call sort :)
04:03 * nirgle waves
04:03 nirgle left perl6
04:04 cmarcelo indeed =o)
04:04 buubot joined perl6
04:05 cmarcelo (finally google.* just came back to work in my ISP)...
04:06 audreyt now boarding for real :)
04:06 audreyt cmarcelo: sorry for having to disappear again
04:06 audreyt *wave*
04:06 cmarcelo ok. =)
04:10 spinclad re big truck internet: 'do not underestimate the bandwidth of a pickup truck tearing down the interstate packed with exabyte tapes' -- ancient usenet proverb
04:10 merlyn it wasn't a pickup truck
04:10 merlyn it was a station wagon
04:11 merlyn and it was pre exabyte
04:11 spinclad 1/2 inch tapes?
04:11 merlyn 9-track
04:12 spinclad it's been filtered through my meme-regenerator
04:12 merlyn do not underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon loaded with 9-track tapes
04:12 merlyn it was a UUnet guy, if I recall
04:13 spinclad think i remember john gilmore's sig as my source for it
04:13 spinclad and that sounds very like it
04:26 dolmans how to declare a function parameter which is also a function but with a specific signature?
04:29 gaal hullo.
04:30 gaal nothingmuch: pong
04:31 audreyt dolmans: sub moose (Code:(Specific --> Signature) $x) {...}
04:32 audreyt (not yet implemented)
04:32 audreyt &x also works in place of $x
04:32 audreyt dolmans: write a test?
04:33 wolverian (and with &x you can call it as x in the body of the sub, iirc)
04:33 audreyt (do you have a commit bit yet? if not, what's your email addr so I can send you one?)
04:33 audreyt yup, what wolverian said.
04:35 dolmans audreyt: oh, i missed a little while, trying to understand what you says now:-P
04:35 gaal audreyt: oh, is [,] final?
04:36 kanru joined perl6
04:37 audreyt gaal: as final as anything else...
04:37 dolmans basically, i want to port some haskell functions to perl6, but without a type system, i found it is difficult. what do you guys think?
04:37 audreyt dolmans: I think you are totally correct :)
04:37 audreyt please write tests
04:38 audreyt including type variables
04:38 dolmans what tests, i just missed
04:38 audreyt sub flip (Code:(::a, ::b --> ::c), ::b, ::a --> ::c) {...}
04:39 audreyt sorry, boarding for real. other lambdacamels here will walk you through :-)
04:39 audreyt *wave*
04:39 dolmans ah yeah, i'd like to
04:39 gaal audreyt: I thought it was dismissed because it didn't make sense with slurpies and namedds.
04:39 gaal have a nice flight!
04:39 dolmans bonne vayage audreyt
04:48 dolmans so, does perl6 will have the type system like haskell, or just pugs or not either?
04:59 gaal dolmans: it's not fully specced yet, but the intent is to have some typing inferencing, yes.
05:01 gaal there's considerable desire to bridge between fully static typing and dynamic freedom.
05:02 dolmans gaal, got it.
05:03 dolmans introducing static typing into perl6 probably means some very big change perhaps end with uncontrollers, i thought. :-)
05:04 dolmans perhaps this is the right time for language design talent.
05:05 gaal I'm not familiar with the term "uncontroller"...
05:06 dolmans i mean ending with a unsteady status
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05:08 gaal gotta go off to $work, see 'ya &
05:21 xern joined perl6
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05:59 bsb_ left perl6
05:59 ingy seen audreyt
05:59 jabbot ingy: audreyt was seen 1 hours 20 minutes 38 seconds ago
06:00 ingy audreyt: ping
06:06 audreyt pong
06:06 audreyt hi from sea/tac airport
06:07 ingy audreyt: hi
06:07 audreyt dolmans: may I have your email addr to send you a commit bit?
06:07 audreyt ingy: hi
06:07 ingy audreyt: I need you to tel me the various ways you use YAML
06:08 ingy for my grant submission
06:08 audreyt I use it for ~/.svk/config
06:08 audreyt for Jifty::Plugin::REST
06:08 audreyt for handy replacement for Data::Dumper::Dumper
06:08 audreyt for shipping pugs AST from Haskell to Perl6 to Perl5 and back
06:08 gaal Perl 6 bytecode
06:09 audreyt for lots of config files
06:09 audreyt (pugs smoker info, etc)
06:09 gaal handy pugs smoke data intermediate format
06:10 audreyt gaal: how's your $job and schedule about 5 days from now?
06:10 audreyt once I'm over jetlag, I'd like to make CapInternals reality
06:10 gaal whee!
06:11 gaal probably I have a few days available
06:11 gaal you're talking saturday? I have saturday :)
06:11 gaal but not sunday
06:11 svnbot6 r11831 | cmarcelo++ | * Judy.Map2: toRevList. And TODO updates.
06:11 audreyt ok.
06:12 audreyt tentatively bookmarked
06:12 audreyt hm. I have 4 hours in the airport
06:12 * audreyt ponders reading the 8th working draft of XHTML2 as bedtime story
06:13 gaal there are some issues with object dumping but unfortunately I can't really stay on the channel now
06:13 gaal but I could have used your help.
06:13 gaal basically it's a problem of redispating stuff across two typeclasses
06:13 xern joined perl6
06:13 audreyt is there a writeup or backlog somewhere?
06:14 gaal no, it was with lumi in the mini tlv hackathon last week
06:14 gaal but the summary is: there's a typeclass of Perl6Class, with method asPerl6Object
06:16 gaal a typical instance method is asPerl6Object (MyCons aa ab ac) = "new(" ++ (intersperse ", " [plShow aa, plShow ab, plShow ac]) ++ ")"
06:16 gaal class PLit a where plShow :: a -> String
06:16 ingy audreyt: thanks
06:17 gaal for example it makes the string "wouldn't" into qn'would'~"'"~qn't'
06:17 gaal (a better implementation would be welcome, but the point is that there needs to be AN implementation)
06:17 audreyt ok
06:17 gaal the problem is how to testify that aa, ab, and ac all "do" PLit
06:18 audreyt so you want to constraint PLit over all MyCons children
06:18 audreyt without saying that in MyCons itself
06:18 gaal precisely. and hertofore all we needed when drifting was one 'derives' pseudocomment
06:18 audreyt (which would be cumbersome but possible)
06:18 gaal precisely :)
06:18 audreyt well, the canonical solution is moose
06:18 audreyt er
06:19 audreyt I mean overlapping instance
06:19 gaal moose is a good canonical solution
06:19 audreyt instance PLit a where plShow = error "hey look moose"
06:19 gaal how so?
06:19 audreyt and then
06:19 audreyt instance (Show a) => PLit a where plShow = ...some real show...
06:19 audreyt that's it I think
06:20 audreyt the "PLit a" satisfies typechecker
06:20 audreyt at runtime it gets dispatched to the more specific instance(s)
06:20 gaal ah, excellent, so there*is* a way to bless all types into a class in haskell! cool.
06:20 gaal I was wondering about that.
06:20 audreyt :)
06:20 audreyt though I wonder if it makes more sense to just use "show".
06:20 audreyt plShow :: Show a => a -> String
06:20 gaal another problem is really technical
06:21 audreyt then you don't have to do that anymore
06:21 gaal yes, in most cases it is show
06:21 audreyt what cases isn't Show?
06:21 gaal the 2nd problem is that there is a circularity beween the actual file and the instances file, if I want to define PLit instances locally
06:21 gaal I want to avoid havingDrIFT.Perl6Class need to know about AST internals
06:22 gaal sorry, in all cases it is Show
06:22 audreyt erll then you don't need the PLit class
06:22 gaal in most cases plShow = show
06:23 gaal how come? lumi mentioned something like open datatypes and maybe open types, but that's not in ghc is it?
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06:23 audreyt it's available as a preprocessor.
06:23 audreyt from andres and ralf
06:24 gaal We don't want to do that do we :)
06:24 audreyt # http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1453
06:24 lambdabot Title: Open data types and open functions | Lambda the Ultimate
06:24 audreyt we don't unless we run out of options :)
06:24 audreyt in any case
06:24 gaal okay, so I don't yet understand the comment about not needing a type PLit
06:24 gaal s/type/class/
06:25 audreyt so basically the types that does Show is exactly the same as types that does PLit
06:25 audreyt but PLit may override plShow for some of the types
06:25 audreyt correct?
06:25 ingy audreyt: http://rafb.net/paste/results/S3EVM640.html
06:25 buubot The paste S3EVM640 has been copied to http://erxz.com/pb/2417
06:25 ingy bbiab
06:25 gaal I guess... but you can't add a method to a class, isn't that it?
06:26 audreyt right... so you do need class PLit, sorry
06:26 audreyt the canonical solution is something like
06:26 audreyt instance Show a => PLit a where plShow = show
06:26 audreyt instance PLit SomeSpecificType where plShow = ...somespecificcode...
06:26 audreyt and enable overlapping instances
06:26 audreyt that's it
06:27 gaal okay, let's see if that works.
06:27 gaal wait no, it doesn't -- I already have that!
06:28 gaal let's dig up a sample error
06:29 audreyt (and let me know what commands I can run to dup it :))
06:32 gaal audreyt: wget http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/tmp/plit.patch ; apply it ; util/drift.pl src/Pugs/AST/CapInternals.hs ; ghc -package-conf third-party/installed/packages.conf -isrc -imisc/pX/gaal -O0 --make misc/pX/gaal/CITest.hs src/pcre/pcre.o -o atest
06:32 dolmans audreyt: i already signed in pugs
06:32 gaal the first issue you'll see is actually (I think) not directly related, it's a circularity thing between the main module and the Instances.hs
06:33 gaal also note the bogus types Bogus and Eval a
06:34 gaal which were meant to be placeholders for future stuff but seem to uncover polymorphism trouble
06:34 dolmans and trying to write some test code, but first i need to coordinate myself to pugs style or any open source project way.
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06:34 gaal dolmans: take a look around the t/ directory
06:34 gaal the README file there is useful.
06:35 dolmans gall: yes that what exactly what i do now
06:35 dolmans *that is
06:35 dolmans sorry, gaal indeed.
06:35 audreyt dolmans: also, add yourself to AUTHORS :)
06:35 gaal dolmans: and don't worry about committing not 100% perfect stuff, we have source control :)
06:35 dolmans audreyt: i'd like to do that!
06:36 dolmans gaal: that what i worried
06:36 dolmans *that is
06:38 gaal audreyt: also, there's something I don't understand about cabal. I wanted to register a newish fps so I can run lambdabot and GOA (xerox++). but when I have a systemwide fps 0.7, pugs won't build.
06:38 audreyt gaal: duped
06:38 gaal I thought cabal was meant to solve that?
06:38 audreyt gaal: it was. and we need to tell cabal to use installed/package.conf and shadow systemwide one
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06:40 gaal I must return to some C++ debugging, sorry, will check back occasionally
06:42 audreyt ok. so it's data Perl6Class a => Eval a = Eval a
06:42 audreyt that was causing all this
06:42 audreyt why do we need the constraint here?
06:42 audreyt if it's relaxed all works
06:42 gaal really?
06:42 audreyt yeah.
06:43 audreyt data Eval a = Eval a
06:43 audreyt then it compiles
06:43 gaal I added it because I was geting an error about 'can't deduce context Perl6Class'...
06:46 audreyt ok. the typesystem-sudoku seems to have been solved
06:46 audreyt I'll post a new patch
06:50 gaal &audrey .= wrap { &?ROUTINE++; call }
06:52 gaal huh that doesn't work.
06:53 gaal guess I'll have to keep doing it manually then: audreyt++ # sudoku solver with class
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07:03 audreyt gaal: http://perlcabal.org/~audre​yt/tmp/plit-compiles.patch
07:03 audreyt note that this is purely sudoku-solving
07:03 audreyt and I have no idea what you are doing :)
07:03 audreyt (still uploading)
07:04 gaal just putting the chocolate on the moose
07:06 audreyt mm syntactic chocolate
07:06 audreyt ok, wget now
07:06 audreyt (this is against trunk)
07:07 gaal ACK
07:08 * audreyt looks at ingy's url now
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07:09 audreyt ingy: s/YAML::Syck.pm/YAML::Syck/
07:10 audreyt ingy: not sure if "Syck lacks good unicode support" is at this moment relevant...
07:10 audreyt with $ImplicitUnicode=1
07:10 miyagawa yeah, YAML::Syck works without any problem
07:11 miyagawa it has "good unicode support"
07:11 audreyt ingy: also, the proposal isn't clear whether you'll do a libyaml binding
07:11 audreyt or a pure-perl port of pyyaml
07:11 audreyt or both
07:11 ingy ok
07:11 audreyt arguably you should say pure-perl, and then list its benefits
07:11 audreyt and mention that a libyaml binding would be available on machines with compilers
07:12 audreyt but a pure-perl available-anywhere implementation that is also compat with libyaml
07:12 audreyt is clearly desirable
07:12 ingy yep
07:12 audreyt (though I wonder if we can just embed libyaml and be done with it...)
07:12 audreyt ...but if you would like to work on pureperl yaml.pm that's still a wonderful thing to do
07:12 ingy well it doesn't exist yet...
07:13 miyagawa $JSON::Syck::ImplicitUnicode = 1; encode('JavaScript-UCS', JSON::Syck::Dump($data)) makes me happy
07:13 audreyt do you believe his SoC will fail? :)
07:14 audreyt ooh, Encode::JavaScript::UCS.
07:14 audreyt I wonder if we should fold that back into JSON::syck
07:14 audreyt nah. different layers.
07:16 miyagawa right, different layers
07:17 miyagawa but it works pretty well with JSON::Syck, either by encoding to JavaScript-UCS before or after Dum
07:17 miyagawa Dump
07:17 audreyt cool :)
07:19 bsb ingy: s/bast/best/
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07:37 gaal if I have a directory that already has some svn:ignore props on it, does 'svk propset svn:ignore dir somefile' just add somefile, or overwrite everything?
07:39 gaal svk propset svn:ignore somefile dir, that is.
07:43 audreyt overwrite
07:43 audreyt you want propedit
07:45 gaal I really don't, I want this in a script
07:45 gaal pugs has like 30 ignorable files and the property interface sucks
07:46 gaal I got a lot of rejects in the patch :(
07:49 audreyt :/
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07:59 dolmans when make install parrot, i got an error `copy docs/ops/bit.pod to /opt/share/doc/parrot/docs/ops/bit.pod: Permission denied', what dose that mean? i sure have that directory's permission.
08:01 audreyt dolmans: no idea... irc.perl.org #parrot may be slightly more helpful on that
08:01 audreyt or parrot-porters@perl.org
08:02 dolmans ah, i got it, it says the docs/ops/bit.pod is unreadable! i dunno why that happend.
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08:46 nothingmuch gaal: pong-to-pong
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09:15 nothingmuch w 24
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09:33 gaal nothingmuch: well, what? :)
09:34 iblechbot joined perl6
09:36 nothingmuch gaal: nothing now =)
09:36 nothingmuch i wanted you to post a summary when audrey was not here
09:36 nothingmuch but she has since done so herself
09:36 nothingmuch =)
09:39 * gaal wonders if his blogs.com account is any good after a month passes since creating it
09:39 gaal ...and I don't understand why anyone would want to use that service when LJ gives a lot more features for free
09:39 nothingmuch file hosting?
09:40 nothingmuch *shrug*
09:40 nothingmuch ask audreyt?
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09:40 gaal does typepad give arbitrary file hosting?
09:40 audreyt yes.
09:41 gaal how much weight?
09:41 audreyt 1,000 megabytes
09:41 gaal nice
09:42 audreyt but the reason I use typepad is just that miyagawa and sky and btrott can be trusted to fix problems speedily :)
09:42 gaal lj gives audiopost and photo hosting only, 2gb for paid accounts
09:42 audreyt and I don't know the lj people that well
09:43 gaal audreyt: brad's fast too :)
09:43 audreyt sure :)
09:43 miyagawa thanks audrey. even though none of Artur, Ben and I are actually working on TypePad
09:43 gaal (LJ people)++
09:43 miyagawa :)
09:43 audreyt miyagawa: I know that :) but you dig up src fast when I asked :)
09:44 audreyt how's vox doing?
09:45 miyagawa it's in a pretty good shape
09:46 audreyt cool :)
09:52 pasteling "cmarcelo" at 200.232.237.151 pasted "SVK/Command/Propadd.pm followed by the needed diff to make it work on trunk.. just a sketch.." (132 lines, 3.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18721
09:52 cmarcelo gaal: if you use svk from trunk, you might want to take a look on this paste above...
10:15 dolmans it seems like to build a binary ghc bundled with all kinds of tools suitable for building pugs is a meaningful work.
10:16 gaal cmarcelo: cool!
10:16 gaal dolmans: ? there aren't very many dependencies for pugs...
10:17 gaal and non of them AFAIK need a GHC rebuild!
10:17 dolmans gaal: at least hs-plugins which depends a chain of tools.
10:18 dolmans not ghc itself, really bundled tools.
10:22 meppl guten morgen
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11:19 gaal dolmans: hs-plugins is really, really optional.
11:27 nothingmuch audreyt: ping?
11:32 gaal nothingmuch: I think she's on a long flight
11:33 nothingmuch yeah, i figured
11:33 * nothingmuch needed pause-admin-fu
11:33 nothingmuch short notice
11:33 nothingmuch ?eval say "Module::Build--" for 1 ...
11:33 gaal what lowercase module are you uploading now? :-P
11:33 nothingmuch nothing of the sort
11:33 nothingmuch but Module::Bane decided it's a good idea to store a version object in the meta.yml
11:34 evalbot_11829 is now known as evalbot_11831
11:34 evalbot_11831 OUTPUT[Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build-- Module::Build
11:34 nothingmuch so i uploaded a broken release
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11:34 nothingmuch karma for Module::Build?
11:34 jabbot nothingmuch: for Module::Build? has neutral karma
11:34 nothingmuch karma for Module::Build
11:34 jabbot nothingmuch: for Module::Build has neutral karma
11:34 gaal haha
11:34 nothingmuch jabbot: Module::Build--
11:34 jabbot nothingmuch: I'm not sure I understand you fully.
11:34 nothingmuch ugh!
11:34 nothingmuch jabbot: IT FUCKING SUCKS OKAY?!
11:34 jabbot nothingmuch: Tell me more about that.
11:34 nothingmuch head-on-keyboard
11:34 gaal ?eval "orz"
11:34 evalbot_11831 "orz"
11:35 nothingmuch oh dear god
11:35 nothingmuch even when the M::B changelog claims to have fixed it it's still broken
11:35 * nothingmuch reverts to an older version
11:35 gaal This is MyModule, version HASH(0x814ec28)
11:37 nothingmuch http://helgafell.rhi.hi.is/pic26777.jpg
11:37 nothingmuch gaal: yep
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11:42 agentzh an S05 related question: is "m:/.../" valid?
11:42 agentzh ?eval 'abc' ~~ m:/\w+/
11:42 evalbot_11831 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting "\\", "$/", "$!" or ":"
11:43 agentzh hmm...seems not. maybe it's just another synopsis nit. :)
11:44 agentzh ?eval my @a = 1..3; @a[0]++; @a.say
11:44 evalbot_11831 OUTPUT[223 ] Bool::True
11:44 agentzh ?eval my @a = 1..3; @a>>++; @a.say
11:44 evalbot_11831 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
11:45 agentzh anyone can tell me what's happening here?
11:47 agentzh ?eval my @a = 1..3; @a>>.say; @a.say
11:47 evalbot_11831 Error:  unexpected ">" expecting "::", term postfix, comment, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
11:47 agentzh :(
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12:54 gaal agentzh: I think that's just not implemented yet, but should be made to work.
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13:35 svnbot6 r11832 | fglock++ | pX/Pugs-Compiler-Rule - refactored positional captures in Regex runtime
13:35 svnbot6 r11831 | cmarcelo++ | * Judy.Map2: toRevList. And TODO updates.
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16:10 * gaal mooses
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16:16 aufrank moose!
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16:33 svnbot6 r11833 | gaal++ | * Runtime dumping of Haskell data as Perl 6 objects: asPerl6Object
16:33 svnbot6 r11833 | gaal++ |   method works for many of the simpler types in CapInternals.
16:33 svnbot6 r11833 | gaal++ |   TODO: hashes, buffers, non-pure types.
16:33 svnbot6 r11833 | gaal++ |   lumi++ nothingmuch++ audreyt++
16:33 svnbot6 r11833 | gaal++ | * update demos for this in misc/pX/gaal/ (see the source or ask)
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16:36 svnbot6 r11834 | gaal++ | some ignore props
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16:40 * nothingmuch was doing the teddybear role for that commit =)
16:40 nothingmuch btw, how's your new debugging moose acclimating?
16:41 ingy hi
16:41 nothingmuch hi ingy
16:41 nothingmuch (how|what) was the movie?
16:42 gaal nothingmuch: the moose is excellent! doesn't have a name yet
16:42 nothingmuch how about ג'רבוסקון
16:43 gaal I perfer something I'm more likely to remember :-)
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16:48 svnbot6 r11835 | gaal++ | * add more ignore props, (uncluttered 'svk st')++
16:50 gaal should .installed-pkg-config, .setup-config, fps.cabal and dist in and around third-party/ be ignored too? I think so but am not sure.
16:54 svnbot6 r11836 | gaal++ | correct ignore prop
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17:15 nothingmuch http://i75.photobucket.com/albu​ms/i309/Custodius/moosecopy.jpg
17:16 nothingmuch http://i75.photobucket.com/albu​ms/i309/Custodius/moosecopy.jpg
17:16 nothingmuch oops
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18:13 pmurias fglock: hi
18:19 weinig|sleep is now known as weinig
18:24 pmurias sorry for not getting round to writing the string parsing part
18:29 pmurias i was on a alogrithmic camp and it was too tiring to write much perl
18:31 pmurias also should the variable interpolation et al. be done after string concatation works?
18:31 pmurias did you look at ext/Parse-Rule?
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18:58 ingy hi audreyt
18:58 ingy er, nm (unless...)
18:58 ingy nothingmuch: ping
18:59 nothingmuch ingy: pong
18:59 ingy want to review my YAML proposal?
18:59 nothingmuch sure
18:59 ingy http://rafb.net/paste/results/QFC4Iw52.txt
18:59 ingy about to send it off...
19:01 nothingmuch Synopsis:  - no quote op?
19:01 nothingmuch |- ?
19:01 nothingmuch or >- ?
19:01 nothingmuch also, benefits should probably be a list ;-)
19:03 ingy oops
19:03 nothingmuch ingy: a little more tech info, methinks
19:03 nothingmuch but then again, i don't relaly know
19:03 nothingmuch show what YAML.pm doesn't have that PyYAML will give it
19:04 ingy ok, thanks
19:07 nothingmuch ingy: i'll be happy to help you with that grant
19:07 nothingmuch that is, without $$$ or anything
19:07 nothingmuch just as a volunteer
19:07 nothingmuch i want a YAML.pm that i can't complain about ;-)
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19:58 fglock pmurias: hi/pong
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20:35 pmurias fglock: pong
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22:20 svnbot6 r11837 | Sage++ | Changed the extractType function to really extract on just type, not matchWithoutEnc.
22:29 svnbot6 r11838 | Sage++ | Refined and cleaned the code for the Oo file handle translations .close and .readline. Both should be more correctly applied, with better junk handling, and the code is now much more readable. No claims that they're absolutely complete, but they're better.
22:29 svnbot6 r11838 | Sage++ | Modifiers to regexs are now better handled with cleaner code. Handeled modifiers include /g, /i, and /e (for s/). They can also be handeled in combination (such as /ige). The cide now correctly catches all of these modifiers on all regexs.
22:29 svnbot6 r11838 | Sage++ | The regex in split() is now translated, using the same functionality as normal regex translations.
22:29 svnbot6 r11838 | Sage++ | The handeling of foreach loops is now improved, both in results and in clarity of code. Foreach loops can vary quite a lot, so I'm sure it can still be broken, but it's now better and easier to fix, when it is broken.
22:29 svnbot6 r11838 | Sage++ | Some other minor cleanups to the code have also been made.
22:44 svnbot6 r11839 | fglock++ | pX/Pugs-Compiler-Rule - passes 217/241
22:45 clkao almost there!
22:46 fglock clkao: almost :)
22:47 clkao fglock: we need to have runtime detection of function being written in perl6 for using the data::bind callconv.  type-based mmd requires this.
22:48 fglock I think PCR now has the internal information to implement the remaining semantics
22:48 fglock clkao: how about calling perl5 subs (p5 cpan modules)
22:49 fglock clkao: runtime detection - do you mean in eval() ?
22:50 clkao no, knowing if you should call func with ("1234") or ([\1234], {})
22:51 fglock clkao: like we do with objects vs. scalar
22:51 fglock it checks if blessed()
22:52 fglock we need to check if bind()
22:54 fglock Emitter::Perl5 #586
22:54 fglock does Data::Bind has a function that tells if a sub is bind?
22:56 clkao ya. you can see if there's bind info in the gv.. another thing is things like %hash.keys.sort
22:58 fglock I think it should behave like (keys %hash).as(Array).sort
22:59 fglock %hash is unboxed, but keys returns a boxed array
23:00 fglock it would work with unboxed array too
23:01 fglock but then you would have to test for 'objectness' in every single method call
23:02 fglock so maybe 'keys %hash' returns unboxed array, and '%hash.keys' returns boxed
23:02 fglock so that you can chain method calls
23:04 fglock back in ~2h &
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23:29 ludan how can i get out from a pugs shell?
23:30 TreyHarris ludan: control-d
23:30 TreyHarris (i.e., send an eof)
23:30 ludan thanks
23:30 salty-horse ludan, or :q
23:30 TreyHarris on windows, i guess that would be control-z
23:31 ludan are there some tutorials to understand the main P6 features implemented in pugs ?
23:31 TreyHarris ludan: theoretically, all perl 6 features are implemented in pugs.  in reality, that isn't true, but we pretend that it is :-)
23:31 TreyHarris so you should look at the synopses and try things
23:31 ludan yep, i'm lurking on this channel by a long time :P
23:31 TreyHarris do you know where the synopses are?
23:32 TreyHarris http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
23:32 lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
23:32 ludan thanks
23:32 TreyHarris some very advanced and esoteric features are implemented, and some very basic features are not, so you generally should just try and see
23:33 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
23:33 ludan ok
23:34 ludan TreyHarris: which is the major issue to release a stable and complete pugs?
23:36 TreyHarris ludan: heh.  for it to be done :-)
23:36 TreyHarris it's a very iterative process, AFAIK, nobody's thinking in terms of project plans and goalposts and gating items
23:36 ludan you mean because it's to difficult to implement?
23:38 TreyHarris that's as good a non-answer as any....  nothing's finalized.  i suspect at some point, somebody will notice that it's useful and stable enough that they'll suggest doing a distribution.  but that's many months off, i think
23:39 * TreyHarris will be back in a few &
23:39 obra 1: the language spec needs to be finished.
23:41 ludan it should be enough :)
23:46 daxim oh fark, I missed qixi
23:52 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig

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