Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-08-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:09 xinming_ is now known as xinming
00:16 meppl gute nacht
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01:25 robkinyon_ obra: ping
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01:47 xinming ?eval sub hello { "hello".say; }; hello();
01:47 evalbot_11936 OUTPUT[hello ] Bool::True
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03:36 azuroth what IM client do ion users use?
03:50 Khisanth why would the wm determine what IM client someone would use?
03:51 azuroth I just find that some programs don't quite fit in with ion
03:54 MacVince how about centericq?
03:54 Khisanth install bitlbee and then just use your IRC client :)
03:55 Khisanth since you are already on IRC, finding an IRC client that fits is assumed to be a problem that has already been solved!
03:55 azuroth it works, but it doesn't quite fit :-p
03:57 Khisanth well go find an IRC client, at least you can reduce two problems into one
03:57 MacVince azuroth: there are plenty of choices: xchat, irssi, Emacs, etc.
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03:57 azuroth hmm. maybe I'll look at centericq
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04:14 azuroth_centeric test
04:30 gaal morning!
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04:31 azuroth_centeric good morning
04:33 azuroth_centeric is now known as azuroth
04:33 azuroth NICK azuroth
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04:52 azuroth_centeric hmm. I can't seem to figure out how to close windows in centericq...
04:54 Khisanth bad interface?
04:56 azuroth_centeric yeah, it may seem so
04:57 azuroth_centeric I don't think I would mind it if I could close windows though
04:57 Khisanth and why is ion causing so much trouble? :)
04:58 azuroth_centeric Ion rocks, just gaim doesn't ;-p
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05:57 svnbot6 r11937 | audreyt++ | * third-party/: Update fps to the released version of 0.7.
05:57 svnbot6 r11937 | audreyt++ |   (you may need to nuke dist/build/ and rebuild after this change.)
06:06 svnbot6 r11938 | audreyt++ | * HsSyck: Chase up fps-0.7 changes.
06:19 svnbot6 r11939 | audreyt++ | * de-bump version for now
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06:37 gaal I keep forgetting how to do this. I want to 'svk desc' r11939, but not my local 11939. How?
06:37 clkao uhm, you can't easily
06:38 gaal This is a mirror, and alarmingly 'svk desc 11938 http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs' doesn't do what I want
06:38 gaal that's it, I'm moving to MS VSS
06:38 gaal :-p
06:39 clkao svk desc `svk log -qr1766@ | grep ^r | cut -f 1 -d ' '`
06:39 clkao does desc 11938@ //depotpath work?
06:41 gaal sec, need to pulll... what does @ mean?
06:44 clkao @ = the number is remote revision
06:45 gaal "Can't find local revision for 11938 on /."
06:46 clkao ya. so use the line above
06:48 gaal work, thanks. going to my aliases..
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07:09 audreyt gaal: ping
07:10 audreyt gaal: open types without preprocessing:
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07:10 audreyt http://homepages.cwi.nl/~ralf/gpce06/paper.pdf
07:15 audreyt gaal: seems to be a much better solution to the scalar_fetch problm
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07:45 rindolf Hi all.
07:45 rindolf Where's Ovid tips for a TPF grant?
07:46 rindolf Google is no help.
07:47 lambdabot joined perl6
07:48 rindolf Does use.perl.org has a search facility?
07:48 svnbot6 r11940 | audreyt++ | * newtypes are now DrIFTed correctly.
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07:58 rindolf audreyt: here?
07:59 rindolf Hmmm... http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/30143
07:59 lambdabot Title: Journal of Ovid (2709)
08:10 svnbot6 r11941 | audreyt++ | * do not revisit third-party unneccessarily.
08:19 svnbot6 r11942 | audreyt++ | * util/drift.pl - handle "newtype" instances; carefully
08:19 svnbot6 r11942 | audreyt++ |   sidestep the nonsupported multi-parameter data types
08:19 svnbot6 r11942 | audreyt++ |   like "EvalT m a".
08:22 svnbot6 r11943 | audreyt++ | * regen instances.
08:25 svnbot6 r11944 | audreyt++ | * DriFT.YAML and Perl6Class: add instancesfor native types such as Word
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08:37 svnbot6 r11945 | audreyt++ | * CapInternals.hs: gaal's CITest and CMTest now compiles again.
08:40 svnbot6 r11946 | audreyt++ | * util/drift.pl: handle consecutive data declarations
08:40 svnbot6 r11946 | audreyt++ |   without blank lines in between.
08:49 StudiesInWords is ghc available as a subversion archive?
08:50 audreyt it's available via darcs
08:50 gaal audreyt++ # wow!
08:50 audreyt darcs get http://darcs.haskell.org/ghc
08:50 gaal I'm very much at $work now, just popping in to see the fireworks :)
08:50 lambdabot Title: Index of /ghc
08:50 audreyt gaal: ok. my immediate next step:
08:51 audreyt Pugs.Val.Native Pugs.Val.Pure Pugs.Val.Mut Pugs.Val.IO
08:51 StudiesInWords audreyt++
08:51 gaal Oh? for smaller files?
08:51 gaal or shorter names? :)
08:51 audreyt both :)
08:51 audreyt actually just smaller files
08:51 gaal how do you hope to avoid circularity?
08:51 audreyt and also encapsulation
08:52 audreyt I don't see an obvious case of circularity besides the main Val type itself
08:52 gaal also, did you notice the comment about the sadness of
08:52 gaal VNative $ NInt $ IFinite 42
08:53 gaal in haskell that's not expensive in anything by fingertyping
08:53 gaal but in other implementations that might even be slow, no?
08:53 audreyt that can easily be solved
08:53 gaal not that I worry about tHAT :)
08:53 audreyt by instance Num Native
08:53 audreyt then you just type 42.
08:53 gaal hee :)
08:53 gaal audreyt: circularity e.g. in objects
08:53 audreyt other implementations may surely encode things differently
08:54 audreyt below the NInt level
08:54 gaal ACK.
08:54 audreyt also, NativeInt doesn't have IFinite.
08:54 audreyt it's just haskell Int
08:54 audreyt PureInt has IFinite
08:54 audreyt (already fixed)
08:54 gaal that's worth documenting then, which parts of the AST are "official"
08:54 gaal duh, right! thanks :)
08:55 audreyt anything in Pugs.Val is; anything not mentioned there is not, how about that :)
08:55 audreyt (for Val constructors)
08:55 gaal ;)
08:55 audreyt anyway, let me finish the refactoring first... this is falling into palce nicely
08:55 audreyt re the two main knot types
08:55 audreyt Val and Native (aka ValId)
08:56 audreyt err ObjId
08:56 audreyt (very confusing; maybe we just rename it to ValId to agree with TimToady )
08:56 gaal nothingmuch and I think you too mentioned it was worth having another level of parser produce, closer to a parse tree. but this is the nice level in which regular macros operate.
08:56 audreyt I'm ready to use .hs-boot for the two knot types
08:56 audreyt since we dropped 6.4.0 support a while ago
08:56 audreyt that means .hs-boot will actually work
08:57 audreyt SPJ says 6.6 "by ICFP"
08:57 gaal but but! objects are not generally values!
08:57 audreyt which is september
08:57 audreyt I agree. so ObjId still :)
08:57 audreyt I think timtoady means ".id as a native value"
08:57 audreyt shortening to .valid
08:58 audreyt also, I think I'm making "buf" immutable
08:58 audreyt since that's what .valid will return
08:58 audreyt ("Buf" will stay mutable)
08:58 gaal ah. how can we guarantee native ids for arb objects?
08:58 gaal audreyt: there are two Bufs (well, many more) in the spec...
08:58 gaal brb
08:58 rindolf Hi gaal, audreyt
08:59 audreyt well, maybe we can only guarantee pure ids
08:59 audreyt instead of native ids
08:59 audreyt in which case CapInternals has it wrong currently
08:59 audreyt I kinda like pure ids. going with that then
09:00 audreyt rihi.
09:00 audreyt rindolf: hi.
09:00 audreyt TimToady: VB9 has this nice solution to the timely destruction problem:
09:00 audreyt using open('/etc/passwd') -> $fh { ... };
09:00 audreyt where "using" is just like "given" except it calls DESTROY.
09:01 wolverian hm, isn't that what C# does too?
09:01 audreyt yup
09:01 rindolf Hi wolverian
09:01 wolverian hello, rindolf
09:01 audreyt we currently has no solution to that
09:01 audreyt so it might be worth stealing...
09:01 audreyt (well, our solution is spelled as LEAVE { $fh.close })
09:03 audreyt reading SPJ's commit logs is quite inspiring :)
09:03 gaal audreyt: where is the association of "using" and "close"?
09:04 gaal in ::IO ?
09:04 gaal IO::DESTROY ?
09:04 audreyt "...  implement some property ... strangely, I can't quite see how to prove it! ... So I've added a test instead ..."
09:04 audreyt gaal: yeah
09:04 gaal lol
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09:05 gaal audreyt: we need to remember sometime that there's buf32, buf64, and stuff (s02 IIRC) with interesting coersions between them... but not yet
09:05 gaal also, int1 which is -1 or 0 :-)
09:06 gaal but generally, type_n types
09:07 audreyt I think it's enumerated
09:07 audreyt it's okay to fail to handle int3
09:07 audreyt so that's fine
09:07 audreyt we just add more Native ytypes
09:07 audreyt variants are cheap :)
09:07 * gaal agrees ObjId should be pure. and wonders how come it wasn't that laready
09:08 gaal ooh open types, saving the paper for tonight
09:08 gaal cheaps except that sometime we'll have to patmatch this stuff :)
09:08 gaal s/s//
09:09 audreyt we patmatch in exactly one place
09:09 audreyt which is class instances :)
09:09 audreyt and we drift that whenever possible
09:09 gaal which reminds me we'll need to generate ids for types too (Boxable)...
09:10 gaal I really need to get back to $work, which is a shame because this stuff is so interesting :)
09:11 pasteling "rindolf" at 88.155.102.228 pasted "TPF Grant Proposal for audreyt and gaal" (59 lines, 2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/18805
09:19 nothingmuch why "valid" and not "val_id" ?
09:19 nothingmuch if ( $form.valid ) { ## aacckkkkkkkkkkk }
09:19 audreyt nothingmuch: builtin methods in p6 has no underscores I elieve that 'what TimToady is after
09:20 nothingmuch =(
09:20 audreyt $form.is_valid surely?
09:20 nothingmuch yes
09:20 nothingmuch but...
09:20 nothingmuch suckage
09:20 audreyt I share that sentiment
09:20 audreyt better suggestions?
09:20 nothingmuch valueid
09:20 audreyt .objid
09:20 nothingmuch "valid" is just asking for trouble
09:20 audreyt .identity
09:20 nothingmuch something involving "flat" maybe
09:21 audreyt Dog.valid is false; Dog.new.valid is true
09:21 audreyt that may or may not help :)
09:21 nothingmuch heh
09:21 nothingmuch mot really
09:21 nothingmuch but thanks for trying
09:21 audreyt I think we are in agreement.
09:21 audreyt but I can't find a convincingly enough word :)
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09:21 nothingmuch i think we need a secret agent in @Larry
09:22 nothingmuch we should drug chromatic
09:22 nothingmuch and hyponotize him
09:22 audreyt heh
09:22 audreyt I'm a synopsis committer, but otoh I stay away from ergonomics, especially when English words is involved...
09:22 nothingmuch yes
09:22 nothingmuch i belive that is the right course
09:23 nothingmuch hmmm
09:23 nothingmuch has the no underscores thing been justified?
09:23 nothingmuch i mean, it's been working out great everywhere else
09:23 nothingmuch and in some places you just can't have c-ish naming conventions
09:23 nothingmuch e.g. MOP introspection
09:24 nothingmuch that's just eeeeeeeeevvvvvvil to the user base
09:24 audreyt I can see maybe that .defined should return a value.
09:24 audreyt it was my counterproposal
09:25 audreyt but that means we .defined in bool context must be fast
09:25 svnbot6 r11947 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Val: New module space to host the "Val" type and all
09:25 svnbot6 r11947 | audreyt++ |   types it uses; this will be the "knot" of mutually-recursive
09:25 svnbot6 r11947 | audreyt++ |   modules where most containers must refer to the Val type
09:25 svnbot6 r11947 | audreyt++ |   whilst being a Val subtype themselves.
09:25 svnbot6 r11947 | audreyt++ |     There beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
09:25 svnbot6 r11947 | audreyt++ |     And metal wrought like fishes' mail,
09:25 svnbot6 r11947 | audreyt++ |     Buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
09:25 svnbot6 r11947 | audreyt++ |     And shining spears were laid in hoard...
09:25 nothingmuch it can be context sensitive
09:25 nothingmuch but
09:25 nothingmuch urff
09:25 nothingmuch let's explain what it does
09:25 nothingmuch and see if we find some pretty fnords
09:25 nothingmuch the purpose, as I reunderstand it
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09:25 nothingmuch is to have something slightly akin to STORABLE_* hooks
09:26 audreyt ok. it returns an immutable object that uniquely identify this object among instances of the same class
09:26 audreyt that's it
09:26 nothingmuch that is, the bare essence of the data the object is representing
09:26 audreyt @foo.vlid may just be its memory address.
09:26 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
09:26 audreyt .valid
09:26 nothingmuch so it's just for comparison?
09:27 audreyt and indexing
09:27 nothingmuch hmm
09:27 nothingmuch okay
09:27 nothingmuch i thought it was going to give us a nice convention
09:27 audreyt it's what .object_id in other languages return
09:27 rindolf audreyt: can you please review http://sial.org/pbot/18805 ?
09:27 lambdabot Title: Paste #18805 from "rindolf" at 88.155.102.228
09:27 nothingmuch but maybe that's for  $obj.does("ReversibleValId")
09:28 audreyt nothingmuch: reversible?
09:29 nothingmuch my $clone = Class.invalid( $obj.valid );
09:29 nothingmuch that is
09:29 audreyt rindolf: 1. the url you gave on "Project Details" does not describe your project
09:29 nothingmuch perhaps it should be more
09:29 audreyt rindolf: 2. saying "may be somewhat slow" without benchmark numbers is probably not helpful
09:29 nothingmuch but
09:29 nothingmuch orthogonal
09:30 nothingmuch to digress a bit further: if an obj does the MeaningfulValId role maybe is_deeply can use that instead, and Storable can be assisted, and etc etc
09:30 nothingmuch anyway
09:30 audreyt rindolf: 3. need to explain a bit more of how HTML-Widgets-NavMenu helps other people; who is already using it; how it integrates with other web frameworks; etc
09:30 audreyt rindolf: sorry, I'm in the middle of a hacking run, that's all I can think of right now
09:30 nothingmuch the fnords we found: immutable, uniquely identifies, instances, essence, data
09:30 nothingmuch represents
09:31 audreyt that suggests .uniqid
09:31 audreyt or .uuid
09:31 audreyt j/k
09:31 nothingmuch i thgink i like "represents" a bit, maybe
09:32 nothingmuch $obj.urepr
09:32 nothingmuch $obj.urp
09:32 nothingmuch for "unique representation"
09:32 nothingmuch =/
09:32 * audreyt goes back to hacking
09:33 audreyt let's call it getHashCode ;)
09:33 nothingmuch heh
09:33 nothingmuch "urp"
09:33 nothingmuch hmm
09:33 nothingmuch i think i prefer urp to valid
09:34 nothingmuch it's much more nonsensical
09:34 nothingmuch *shrug*
09:34 rindolf audreyt: sure, no problem, let me remedy it.
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09:58 gaal $vampire.vlad.impale.impale.impale
09:59 nothingmuch gaal++
10:03 gaal .uid could work...
10:03 gaal or .oid for that matter
10:04 gaal or go haskellish and use a ScarySymbol
10:04 gaal .id#
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10:05 gaal .id$ etc. (find a ligis that makes sense)
10:06 gaal is # cool in identifiers? or is $oops#I_spaced_out a var with a comment in it?
10:06 gaal s/in/after
10:07 gaal talking lexically here, of course with symbol table elkage you can have a var with a '#' in it.
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10:28 gaal audreyt: shouldn't Pugs.Val be called Pugs.AST.Val (etc.)?
10:30 audreyt well it is used in runtime as well
10:30 audreyt as well as serialization
10:30 audreyt I think toplevel may be warranted
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10:49 svnbot6 r11948 | audreyt++ | * beginning of CapInternals->Val refactoring.
10:50 clkao audreyt: http://flickr.com/photos/clkao/207896989/ # very cool shop name
10:50 lambdabot Title: IMG_1812 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
10:50 audreyt gaal: my idea is that Val will become abstract data type outside Pugs.Val
10:51 audreyt gaal: no casing of Vl anymore
10:51 audreyt _everything_ done in term of typeclasses
10:51 audreyt restrict the casing inside Pugs.Val.*; for the evaluator, you can ask for coercion; call methods; promote native values; call "smart" onstructors
10:52 audreyt but no casing and no explicit tycon calls
10:52 audreyt this is to avoid the massive expression-problem thing we are tackling now
10:53 audreyt clkao: nice!
10:53 audreyt nothingmuch's InterfaceIdea also dictates that we model each builtin Role as a typeclass
10:53 nothingmuch yes yes yes yes yes
10:54 audreyt and we make Val an instance of that interface
10:54 nothingmuch u/w 20
10:54 audreyt and let it throw exceptions for variants that does not satisfy them
10:54 audreyt as well as allow for testing of interface compatibleness
10:54 audreyt which is simple by collecting instance evidence at Val level
10:54 audreyt and nothingmuch won't have a reason to accuse me for nonextensible Haskell internals anymore ;)
10:55 nothingmuch ?
10:55 audreyt a visitor will take the form of (CanDoSomething a => a -> SomeResult) -> Val -> SomeResult
10:56 audreyt nothingmuch: you opined a while ago that the adhoc nature of the current runtime by pushing more and more operations into AST.Internals and Eval is harmful
10:57 * audreyt goes back hacking
10:58 nothingmuch my mind is a blank
10:58 nothingmuch i think it's a good thing, right?
10:58 nothingmuch ;-)
10:58 nothingmuch (what you're saying)
10:58 audreyt it's a good thing :)
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11:16 gaal whee
11:17 audreyt TimToady: is it Bool::True or bool::True
11:17 audreyt synopses disagree with itself
11:17 audreyt I think "bool" can be retired and made synonym of "bit" if really needed
11:17 audreyt and True would mean "Bool::True"
11:18 audreyt $x = True; # assume Bool semantics; same as "$x = 3" assumes Int not int
11:18 nothingmuch ++
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11:23 lichtkind g morning
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11:27 audreyt lichtkind: hi
11:28 lichtkind audreyt : :) still no official perl6 tut ? i just yesterday began to continue my work :)
11:30 audreyt lichtkind: no, doc/Perl6/Tutorial/ is still unpopulated :)
11:31 lichtkind audreyt even if you dont speak german would you like to look on my aproach on http://wiki.perl-community.de/bin/vie​w/Wissensbasis/Perl6TutorialKapitel3
11:31 lambdabot Title: PerlCommunityWiki » Wissensbasis » Perl6TutorialKapitel3
11:31 lichtkind whu ?
11:33 lichtkind and BTW audreyt i didnt listen you and still develop my perl editor in perl :)
11:33 lichtkind but to the tutorial my approach was a bit theory first, but skipable
11:33 audreyt looks quite sane
11:33 lichtkind then vars then operators than control then subs then oop ..roles
11:33 audreyt how's the perl editor doing?
11:34 lichtkind quit well last week we released 0.3.3 which behaves a lot more than professional user app :)
11:35 lichtkind my basic idea for this tutorial was to have one place for all operator related stuff and one place vor variables and so on
11:36 lichtkind begin with simpel stuff when gets to nifty you can pass on to control structures
11:36 audreyt url to the editor? :)
11:36 audreyt *nod*
11:36 lichtkind but you still know where to find what
11:37 lichtkind first chapter ist a summary what hapened and where to find what and second chapter is a bit theorie goal, design pronciple and so on
11:37 lichtkind editor : http://proton-ce.sourceforge​.net/site/en/home_news.shtml
11:38 lichtkind sorry but i maintain only win port but alias and me are close before CPAN release
11:38 lichtkind last major steps are currently taken
11:39 lichtkind so your fine with the concept of the tut?
11:39 audreyt yup
11:40 audreyt from the bit of German language still left in me
11:40 audreyt it looks like pretty concisely written
11:41 lichtkind thanks the best are the 4 appendix
11:42 audreyt so will PCE contain more perl-specific features?
11:42 audreyt basing on Scintilla seems like a smart choice.
11:42 lichtkind appendix A ist complete index with all perl6 commands ops and all used terms that need to be axplained
11:43 lichtkind appendix b list for short looking
11:43 lichtkind appendix c best of feature tour , an apetizer
11:44 lichtkind appendix d greatest changes for quick orientation of good perl5 programmer
11:45 lichtkind audreyt of course alias is payed by tpf to plug in PPI and things like Perl::Tidy and so on are made to be plugged in
11:45 lichtkind but we had to make some internal changes first
11:46 lichtkind and its now called Kepher not PCE, that will come in news next week :)
11:47 audreyt what does Kepher mean?
11:47 lichtkind its old egypt term that stands for creation out of it self (writing editor with editor) and spiritual progress
11:48 audreyt "bootstrapping"
11:48 lichtkind not exactly
11:49 lichtkind acording the legend it is the beatle that rols every night the sun to its place where it can go up next morning it takes care of creation while it cant run by itself
11:49 audreyt oh! ok.
11:51 lichtkind so i stole enough attention its geat to see you still wrestling with pugs :)
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11:53 audreyt :)
11:56 jferrero lichtkind, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kephir
11:56 CodeBook do the channels #perl6 and #perl have a direct relation?
11:57 lichtkind jferrero kefir is very healthy :) the only problem i had was that the transliteration "xeper " was used by satanists
11:58 Jedai CodeBook : #perl6 is for the development of pugs and modules related to perl6 for perl5, #perl is the channel where you can find help for your perl questions.
11:58 CodeBook Jedai, i see
11:59 CodeBook Jedai, do both channels have the same channel management?
11:59 jferrero lichtkind, Only I have to translate the english.conf file to spanish?
12:01 lichtkind yes
12:01 CodeBook i tried to "/cs access #perl list" to be able to talk to an OP there about the reasons for a provider ban. cause i never been there so far. it might be offtopic here. but is there a chance to talk to a person who has access on #perl?
12:02 CodeBook but the access list is restricted
12:05 lichtkind jferrero but still i need to add 2 lines of perl code and something in configs to be able to switch to spanish via language menu in the app :)
12:05 lichtkind but that easy for me done in 2 minutes
12:07 jferrero In coding = line, I can set the coding to 8859-15?
12:09 audreyt TimToady: how lazy is a capture?
12:09 audreyt my $x = \(exit(1), exit(2));
12:09 audreyt it should exit even if $x is not usef, right?
12:10 jferrero lichtkind, In coding = line, I can set the coding to 8859-15?
12:11 azuroth_centeric what sort of laptops does everyone use?
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12:15 StudiesInWords #perlhelp is the channel for help with perl questions.  #perl is the social channel for the perl community.  (imho)
12:16 azuroth_centeric aww, okay
12:16 gaal audreyt: surely! my $x = \(1+2)_ # you would expect this to be reduced too
12:17 gaal likewise for a function call, IMHO
12:17 gaal if you want Sclar::Defer or lazy, I can set you up with the person who wrote that...
12:18 lichtkind jferrero no its a planned feature, now its treated like normal perl strings
12:19 audreyt gaal: well then Cap can't contain Exp can it.
12:19 audreyt it has to contain Val.
12:19 audreyt for the PureCap.
12:24 gaal huh.
12:24 gaal btw didn't you rename it to Capt? or was it Capt you'd renamed it from? :)
12:25 audreyt you renamed it from Capt to Cap iirc.
12:25 audreyt it's Cap at this moment
12:25 gaal NiCap
12:27 gaal lazy{} and defer{} in pugs, how would they be implemented? cps voodoo?
12:28 audreyt VThunk
12:29 audreyt which would be in IO
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12:35 audreyt Pugs.Val.Foo would be the API of the Foo builtin class, I think
12:35 audreyt I've pondered Pugs.Class.Foo and Pugs.Data.Foo instead
12:37 audreyt or even Pugs.Pure.Code
12:38 audreyt but Pugs.Val.Code seems to work well, so I'll put it there for now
12:38 gaal sorry for the lag
12:39 gaal Pugs.Val.Code for the Code ASTish type you mean? or the Perl6-visible Code type? or are you intentionally coupling them?
12:39 audreyt the perl6 visible Code type
12:40 audreyt it would define the Haskell-land PureCode type
12:40 audreyt as well as its instances for the various interfaces
12:40 audreyt aka roles
12:40 audreyt which we may call Pugs.Interface.*
12:40 audreyt or Pugs.Role.*
12:40 audreyt or some such
12:41 audreyt the idea is to decouple the constructors from the implementations
12:41 audreyt for ValPure, a PureFoo is always just Purefoo
12:41 audreyt for ValPure, a PureFoo is always just PureFoo
12:41 audreyt the "data PureFoo ..." should not occur in the same module
12:42 audreyt anyway, you'll see pretty soon :)
12:42 gaal :)
12:42 audreyt meanwhile read that ralf paper :)
12:42 gaal $work :(
12:43 audreyt oy :/
12:43 gaal i only show up here when my stomach won't let me do any more c++
12:44 gaal language of whipped backs instead of whipuppededness
12:44 svnbot6 r11949 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Val - sketch of the public-facing Val interface.
12:44 gaal that was fast
12:45 audreyt *nod*
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13:03 audreyt bbl...
13:04 svnbot6 r11950 | audreyt++ | * Val: Add UProto for prototype objects
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14:28 equinox5 joined perl6
14:28 equinox5 hi
14:28 equinox5 what is the state of Perl 6?
14:30 lichtkind whooo big question
14:30 webmind easy question, big answer :)
14:30 equinox5 come on
14:31 equinox5 is there going to be a version for production use?
14:31 equinox5 what backends are working best?
14:31 lichtkind of course :)
14:31 webmind I'm pretty sure about that there will be
14:31 lichtkind the language still evolving a bit but great peaces are finished
14:31 lichtkind pugs is running today
14:32 lichtkind but production .. not this year
14:32 equinox5 I have seen there are many backends.
14:32 equinox5 which are in the best state?
14:33 lichtkind perl 5.10 will bring some cool perl6 features in "production "
14:33 equinox5 Such as?
14:33 lichtkind err operator or case statements
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14:34 lichtkind say
14:34 lichtkind and moose gives you perl6 OOP today i
14:35 lichtkind pugs is cool but changing too fast for any sane production
14:35 lichtkind and aprrot still incomplete
14:35 equinox5 ok
14:35 equinox5 what about ponie?
14:38 lichtkind is sleeping currently
14:38 lichtkind but translator seeme to awakenin
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14:38 equinox5 what translator? perl 5 to 6?
14:39 lichtkind yea
14:39 equinox5 what is it called?
14:39 equinox5 officially?
14:40 lichtkind its not even born but larry seems to work on it
14:40 audreyt it's Sage's work
14:40 audreyt based on larry's
14:40 audreyt misc/pX/Common/P5_to_P6_Translation/
14:40 audreyt in the pugs tree
14:41 lichtkind audreyt how does this work with the commiter bits?
14:41 * lichtkind has still no for pugs
14:41 xdg lichtkind: wait about 20 secs
14:41 audreyt oh, easy
14:41 audreyt let me know of your email addr :)
14:42 lichtkind [email@hidden.address]
14:42 equinox5 I could also make a translator.
14:42 audreyt mm, fellow SMAC lover
14:42 equinox5 but I cannot see the point.
14:42 audreyt welcome aboard!
14:42 audreyt add yourself to AUTHORS :)
14:42 xdg lichtkind: see... wasn't that about 20 seconds?
14:42 xdg :)
14:42 foo\ joined perl6
14:42 lichtkind :)
14:43 audreyt simply commit as "lichtkind"; you already got an openfoundry account
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14:43 lichtkind and the pwd?
14:43 audreyt uhm, I suppose you picked a pwd when you signed up
14:43 audreyt there's a mail-passwd link
14:44 audreyt on http://rt.openfoundry.org/ somewhere
14:44 audreyt if that fails, I can give you another commit bit on another mail addr, or reset your password manually, etc :)
14:49 equinox5 what about the backends?
14:49 lichtkind no thanks audrey im in :)
14:49 lichtkind who runs open foundry?
14:52 audreyt some .tw government branch
14:53 audreyt I did most of the initial implementaiton; gugod made the UI bearable; but the maintainence team has taken over quite a while ago
14:54 lichtkind cool
15:01 lichtkind i like open foundry but there are much more folks on sourceforge
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15:05 equinox5 what is your part in this project?
15:06 gaal with EU::MM, how do I override settings when I do 'perl Makefile.PL'?
15:07 gaal eg. perl Makefile.PL cc=/some/alt/cc
15:07 audreyt try CC=
15:09 gaal looks like it worked. Thanks :)
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15:22 audreyt gaal: I nuked all our constructors. whee
15:22 svnbot6 r11951 | audreyt++ | * "Pure", "Mut" and "Ext" (nee IO) are now open data types.
15:23 lichtkind equinox5 you mean me?
15:25 lichtkind i just looking and asking questions? may be i manage to write an tutorial :)
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15:32 gaal audreyt++ audreyt++ audreyt++ # Mistress *
15:32 gaal Ext as in external?
15:32 gaal Worldly Types
15:35 gaal nativeId (NBit True)            = NInt (-1)
15:35 gaal bogons detected!
15:35 audreyt yeah. I'm wondering if it actually pays
15:36 audreyt for .valid to be true whenever .defined is true
15:36 audreyt ext as in external.
15:37 gaal dynCompare x y = case cast y of -- interesting
15:37 gaal ah, I understand
15:37 gaal cool :)
15:38 audreyt :)
15:38 gaal you just made everything comparable
15:38 gaal in three lines
15:38 gaal Haskell**
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15:52 audreyt ok, that's it for tonight. be back afte a short sleep...
15:52 svnbot6 r11952 | audreyt++ | * valId: for Pure types, force the special pureId method; for Mut and Ext
15:52 svnbot6 r11952 | audreyt++ |   we simply use memory address.
15:54 equinox5 ok, lichkind,
15:54 equinox5 bye
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16:13 gaal night A
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16:48 gaal whoa whoa the open types trick is cool
16:49 gaal big aha on page three :)
16:49 gaal it's also fortunate that their example just happens to be an AST :-)
17:00 TimToady audreyt: actually, our current huffmanly solution is: $fh will leave { .close }
17:01 jmf is there any chance of the hyperoperator changing back to something simpler?
17:01 TimToady audreyt: yes, the normal boolean type name is Bool.  bool would be a synonym for bit, which is already a synonym for uint1
17:02 TimToady audreyt: a sub call is never lazy by default, even in a capture.  It will prefer to assume list context and run immediately.
17:03 TimToady jmf: not in standard Perl 6, but it would be pretty easy to tweak with a grammar mod.
17:04 TimToady some mathematicians would rather assume hyper and mark the ones that force scalar.
17:04 jmf i see: and is it supposed to be that >><<< is valid but >>!<<< is not
17:05 TimToady the latter is not yet implemented, as far as I know
17:05 TimToady but if I were using them, I'd certainly use the french quotes rather than the texas quotes.
17:05 TimToady just for visual clarity
17:06 jmf ahh ok thanks
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17:08 TimToady »<« and »!<« are somewhat easier to look at, if a little harder to type.
17:08 TimToady but you read it a lot more times than you type it.
17:08 jmf yes
17:08 jmf well not in the interpreter
17:08 jmf but i see your point
17:09 SamB TimToady: I think that must depend on fonts...
17:09 SamB it doesn't look very nice here at all
17:09 SamB the »« are itsy-bitsy
17:10 SamB and the centerlines don't match up either
17:10 SamB pango needs work :-(
17:14 jmf TimToady: what would be the best way to start working on perl6 at this time?
17:14 TimToady depends on your interests
17:15 TimToady some folks like the low-level work, and so tend to head toward parrot.
17:15 TimToady others prefer to be closer to the abstractions, and tend to hang out in pugs-space.
17:16 TimToady right now, most of the test development is done under pugs
17:16 jmf well working on pugs then?
17:16 TimToady "pugs" really means two different things right now.
17:16 TimToady it started out being the Haskell compiler/interpreter for Perl 6.
17:17 TimToady and if you run "pugs" that's what you still get.
17:17 TimToady but the pugs repository has become home for many other related projects that may or may not involve Haskell.
17:17 TimToady the whole p6-on-p5 thing is pretty much devoid of Haskell these days.
17:18 TimToady but that's because Audrey is so good at handing out commit bits.
17:18 TimToady speaking of which, do you have one?
17:18 jmf no
17:18 TimToady gimme an email address and I can send you one.  You can use "at" and such to disguise from bots.
17:19 jmf jmflizz _AT_ rice _._ edu
17:23 TimToady okay, had to remember where the page was, but an invite should be on your way.
17:23 jmf ok, thanks
17:24 TimToady customarily the first commit you do is add your name to AUTHORS
17:24 jmf so will p6-on-p5 and the haskell interpreter both have a place in the future then?
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17:24 TimToady everything that's useful will have a place in the future.  :)
17:25 jmf of course :)
17:25 TimToady to be more specific, I don't see either of those withering away any time soon.
17:25 TimToady p6-on-p5 is probably the most expeditious way to bootstrap the community into using P6.
17:26 TimToady the Haskell implementation may well remain the implementation of choice for defining the exact semantics desired, and hence regressing the regression tests themselves.
17:26 TimToady the parrot implementation will likely be the fastest
17:27 jmf and how about p6-on-p6?
17:28 TimToady As soon as any other implementation can run p6 sufficiently well, we can do that too.  there's already efforts in that direction.
17:28 TimToady I think most of the folks here would rather be writing a Perl compiler in P6 than in P5...
17:29 jmf right
17:29 TimToady or in PIR, or in Haskell...
17:30 TimToady well, I'm gonna need to bail now.  have the appropriate amount of fun. :)
17:30 jmf alright, thanks for your help
17:32 TimToady bbl &
17:37 equinox5 joined perl6
17:37 equinox5 hi
17:38 equinox5 what is PIR RUN?
17:38 jferrero joined perl6
17:39 equinox5 Does that mean that Perl 6 is converted into Perl 5 and run using perl.exe?
17:40 Khisanth so how many MB is pugs' AUTHORS up to? :)
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17:49 robkinyon obra: ping
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19:09 jmf does anyone know if there is a problem with the openfoundry.org registration page?
19:13 weinig joined perl6
19:13 gaal haven't heard of that
19:14 jmf can?t open the page ?http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foun​dry/Home/Guest/Register.html?. The error was: ?lost network connection? (NSURLErrorDomain:-1005)
19:14 lambdabot Title: Member Login -- OSSF
19:15 gaal worksforme (though slowly)
19:16 jmf well i get that error after I click "I agree"
19:16 gaal oh
19:17 gaal breaksforme too then.
19:17 jmf damn
19:17 gaal .tw people are probably asleep now...
19:18 gaal got something to commit?
19:18 jmf i see, will this probably get fixed on its own in the next few days then or is there someone i should contact?
19:18 jmf well no not yet
19:19 gaal I think both gugod and audreyt might be able to do something about it, or at least prod someone else to
19:19 gaal I don't know who's the proper person to contact directly though.
19:20 jmf alright ill wait it out for now then, thank
19:20 gaal the repo does work though, so you can check out even if you don't have a user.
19:20 jmf yeah ive done that already
19:20 gaal (it's svn; it nees a user only when you commit)
19:21 jmf just wanted to make sure its not something on my end
19:23 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
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21:17 lichtkind hej im checking out pugs for first time of my liiiiiiffeee
21:17 lichtkind hehe :)
21:18 azuroth_centeric are you _drunk_? :D
21:18 lichtkind better ..happy :)
21:20 azuroth_centeric I have work in an hour. :-(
21:24 lichtkind thats no excuse not to be happy :)
21:27 azuroth_centeric I'll try my best, then
21:27 lichtkind love yourself, your great :)
21:27 lichtkind i have problems to check out pugs
21:28 lichtkind server closes connection
21:29 azuroth_centeric like, it gets half-way through and times out?
21:29 lichtkind yes
21:33 lichtkind it stops always on pugs/"svn/vcc/default
21:36 azuroth_centeric yarrg, just a sec
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22:03 lichtkind azuroth_centeric++
22:05 lichtkind shii same problem
22:07 fglock joined perl6
22:08 lichtkind please help me i cant commit pugs repository
22:09 jmf joined perl6
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22:26 xinming lichtkind: what's the message show?
22:26 lichtkind same as reported
22:27 lichtkind connection closed by server
22:28 xinming lichtkind: I think It might because the server is busy.
22:31 xinming lichtkind: what version control system you use?
22:31 xinming BTW
22:34 lichtkind tortoise
22:35 lichtkind but its not that important the important dir i have now down :)
23:03 jferrero joined perl6
23:03 lichtkind wb
23:03 lichtkind xinming you was right now i could load all stuff
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23:12 svnbot6 r11953 | fglock++ | pX/Pugs-Compiler-* - fixed aliasing in Token; '$foo if $bar' works again
23:12 clkao fglock: is it all passing now!
23:12 clkao whoot
23:12 clkao fglock: did you see my question the other day about removing an infix or stuff. if we leave the scope
23:13 fglock clkao: I'm running 08-test.t - but it takes a lot of time here (too little ram)
23:13 clkao syntax error at /home/clkao/work/pugs/misc/pX/Common/Pugs-Com​piler-Rule/blib/lib/Pugs/Grammar/Rule/Rule.pm line 17, near "rule ws     :"
23:13 clkao make clean did the trick
23:16 clkao fglock: Use of uninitialized value in subroutine entry at (eval 345) line 441.
23:16 clkao Error in perl 6 parser: Can't use string ("") as a subroutine ref while "strict refs" in use at (eval 345) line 441.
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23:20 fglock clkao: we may need to localize the category tables, at both compile time and runtime
23:21 fglock clkao: I had to interrupt 08-test.t, it swaps too much
23:21 clkao fglock: it simply fails early for me
23:23 fglock clkao: you may uncomment Pugs::Compiler::Perl6 line 55, to show the current compiling line number
23:23 clkao it's not even there
23:27 fglock Perl6Prelude compiles, I'll retry 08-test.t
23:38 clkao fglock: it works
23:39 clkao fglock: it seems to use significant more cpu. ram usage is okay though
23:41 fglock it may be backtracking somewhere
23:41 clkao it all seems beautiful up to now
23:42 clkao do you wnt ot merge back?
23:42 clkao -rule is with lots of conflicts because there were lots of manual merging
23:42 clkao -perl6 is sane, i can just merge up in a jiffy
23:47 fglock clkao: would you help? you have more experience with merging then I
23:48 robkinyon obra: ping
23:49 clkao fglock: i can help with -perl6. can't with -rule, i took a look the other day
23:49 fglock clkao: maybe we could just copy -Rule over
23:49 clkao no
23:49 clkao i think i have changes in perl5/-rule
23:50 clkao maybe manually merge things on perl5/-rule down to px?
23:50 fglock oh, there is scw work
23:50 clkao should i just do the perl6 and leave the rest for you? i neeed to go to bed
23:51 robkinyon seen obra
23:51 jabbot robkinyon: obra was seen 2 days 5 hours 3 minutes 2 seconds ago
23:51 robkinyon anyone here using a MacBook and that DesktopManager replacement?
23:51 fglock clkao: how about merge perl6 down to px, so that it doesn't break the perl5/ version; i'll merge -Rule
23:51 robkinyon stevan said that obra pointed him to a good replacement (a fork that was better on Intel macs)
23:53 fglock clkao: would do the -Perl6 merge?
23:53 svnbot6 r11954 | clkao++ | copy test.pm properly.
23:53 obra virtue
23:53 fglock I'll work on -Rule then
23:54 clkao done
23:56 fglock clkao: thanks!
23:59 svnbot6 r11955 | clkao++ | Remove rule related tests for now, we shuold be using the perl6 version of p6regex.t

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