Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-08-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:03 zgh TreyHarris: ugh I hate that.... not sure what to recommend apart from bugging the port maintainer
00:03 zgh you might try port -e
00:03 zgh to edit the portfile and look around
00:03 zgh you could also apply the patches manually and just do the build with port
00:04 zgh not good solutions i know
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00:04 TreyHarris well, my problem is that i come from a linux background, so apart from ghc for pugs, i don't have any experience with ports at all :-)
00:05 zgh yup i sympathize.... but the portfile layout is pretty self-explanatory... and you can see what files port is trying to patch by looking at teh errors...
00:05 zgh i have never had much luck with bad ports... they're way behind esp in you're on intel
00:05 zgh s/in/if/
00:10 TreyHarris zgh: thanks for giving me a direction to go in
00:11 TreyHarris pugs needs 6.5 now, right?  i can't just use my 6.4.1 build?
00:13 zgh i use 6.4.1 on linux... forget what I ahve on my mac.
00:13 zgh that's for SVN pugs updated today
00:13 TreyHarris ahh.  why did i think i needed 6.5?
00:13 TreyHarris ohhh, i know... pugs was going into a death spiral with the version of libreadline 6.4.1 used
00:13 TreyHarris so audrey suggested i upgrade
00:14 zgh yeah easier said than done with dports. I keep hoping the popularity of the new macs will bring it out of the ghetto.
00:14 zgh the main erason I sue it instead of fink is for +aqua variants
00:14 zgh s/sue/use/
00:22 svnbot6 r12285 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed 'self'
00:22 svnbot6 r12285 | fglock++ | Pugs-Runtime-Value - 4 tests pass
00:23 TreyHarris huh, is ghc in fink?
00:23 TreyHarris i have that too
00:23 zgh probably it isn't
00:23 zgh i meant in general
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00:25 TreyHarris info paste
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00:38 dduncan seen cmarcelo
00:38 jabbot dduncan: cmarcelo was seen 8 hours 28 minutes 30 seconds ago
00:39 dduncan the build process broke for me again since that commit I made yesterday which fixed it ...
00:39 dduncan I now get this again: /usr/bin/ld: table of contents for archive: third-party/installed/libJudy.a is out of date; rerun ranlib(1) (can't load from it)
00:40 dduncan so if it didn't actually *break* the build for anyone, I'm going to re-apply my change to build_pugs.pl
00:46 svnbot6 r12286 | Sage++ | The translator test is now much smarter, and works better with a compiled version of the translator.
00:46 svnbot6 r12286 | Sage++ | Running the current test on windows has the translator failing on one file, and a handfull of UnknownNodes.
00:52 svnbot6 r12287 | Sage++ | Added a clean, so 'make clean' cleans.
00:54 dduncan recommit done
00:54 svnbot6 r12288 | Darren_Duncan++ | updated util/build_pugs.pl to move the 2 copy-src/obj/.libs/libJudy.a lines back inside a conditional, since leaving them outside always causes a Pugs build failure for me with '/usr/bin/ld: table of contents for archive: third-party/installed/libJudy.a is out of date; rerun ranlib(1) (can't load from it)' ... any suitable further fix must not result in that problem returning
00:55 dduncan so following that change, the Pugs build succeeds again and ./pugs executes
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01:03 SageLT audreyt: I heard you might know a fix for getting ghc to compile code on a mac? I've gotten it to the point that ghci runs, but compiling with ghc brings up a dyld error about GML.framework...
01:03 SageLT *Intel mac, I should say.
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01:40 diakopter SageLT: http://cvs.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/X86OSXGhc
01:40 lambdabot Title: X86OSXGhc - GHC - Trac
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02:19 svnbot6 r12289 | audreyt++ | * Makefile.PL: Observe that I often hesitate to "make unoptimized"
02:19 svnbot6 r12289 | audreyt++ |   simply because "unoptimized" is hard to type.  Make an alias
02:19 svnbot6 r12289 | audreyt++ |   "make fast" to encourage its use.
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02:34 svnbot6 r12290 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed autoquoting in named param
02:42 TimToady I'm getting the /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lJudy error.  Is there a known fix?
02:42 TimToady already did realclean
02:44 TreyHarris TimToady: if you have scrollback, perhaps dduncan's last commit is relevant?
02:44 TimToady I'm up-to-date
02:45 TreyHarris i'm in ghc dependency hell, so i don't know if i have this issue or not yet :-)
02:45 TimToady well, I'm at 89
02:45 TimToady but I doubt 90 will fix it...
02:46 TreyHarris i'm still at 54
02:49 dduncan fyi, I am using Pugs in all of its default modes ... whatever plain 'Makefile.PL' and 'make' give you ... normal Haskell runcore ... Mac OS X 10.4.6 plus Perl 5.8.7 ... GHC 6.4.1 ... I don't edit anything Haskell or build system related, so I"m using things as they come from the distro
02:49 dduncan if people are getting different behaviour, then they may be doing something else ... but I like to think I have the simplest config possible, so it should just work here ... it isn't without my change, so there is a bigger issue
02:51 TreyHarris TimToady: earlier i asked if there was any draft syntax to support STM besides C<let>
02:51 dduncan for people where Pugs' build was just working when mine wasn't, I'd like to know how their setups are different ... if that would help in getting a better fix out
02:51 SamB TimToady: you got quoted in HWN as "Tim Toady" ;-)
02:52 TimToady HWN?
02:52 obra  HWN?
02:53 TimToady Haskell With Newts?
02:53 TimToady by the way, blowing away third-party seems to have cleared the problem.
02:53 SamB Haskell Weekly News
02:54 TimToady My name is ferociously difficult to implement.
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02:54 TimToady I suppose it was my "Haskell is easy to learn..." quote.
02:54 cmarcelo_ dduncan: pong
02:54 TreyHarris yep
02:55 dduncan hello
02:55 TreyHarris you've done it several times
02:55 SamB apparantly it occurred to dons after publication that it might have been a pseudonym...
02:55 SamB TimToady: yeah, that one
02:55 cmarcelo_ is now known as cmarcelo
02:55 TimToady ah well, at least I didn't call myself MarkTwain.
02:55 SamB I have informed dons of your correct identity, so hopefully if he gets any more amusing quotes from you he will remember it...
02:56 TimToady :)
02:56 TreyHarris TimToady: so is the STM syntax contend, as shown in examples/concurrency/stm-retry-with.pl?  or is that just conjecture?  and does 'let' have anything to do with STM?
02:56 cmarcelo dduncan: i move cp out because when "make clean" or something that nukes t-p/installed happens, libJudy.a never get copied because the check only recompile when src/obj/.libs/libJudy.a is down, and there are many situations that it isn't..
02:57 TimToady contend is the current "atomic".
02:57 cmarcelo I thought that make clean i added before make would force a recompilation and wouldn't cause problems for you, but it seems thats not the case..
02:57 TimToady 'til we think of something better.
02:57 TimToady but we did think a long time about it.
02:57 TreyHarris ok.  let is orthogonal, or can let work within a contend?
02:58 dduncan well, that copying is causing the "out of date" error, so maybe the code somewhere that determines whether something is out of date or not needs to be fixed?
02:58 dduncan especially if Judy itself doesn't change much, it can't simply be declared out of date all the time ... that is an error
02:58 TimToady I don't think let is special to STM.
02:59 TimToady STM covers any in-memory transactions.
02:59 TimToady in theory...
02:59 dduncan also, I don't think a forced recompilation should be necessary if the source hasn't changed ... the code that determines if Judy code changed or not needs fixing, though I don't know how
02:59 dduncan that seems to be the root of the problem
03:00 dduncan good luck if you know how that stuff works
03:00 cmarcelo dduncan: indeed.. but when src/obj/.libs is lost, just "make" doesn't get it back if I remember correctly.. what if it copies only when there isn't files there (never overwrite)?
03:01 dduncan I think the determination of change is what needs addressing ... the other stuff seems to be to just be trying to work around when the determination is incorrect
03:02 TreyHarris i think i see.  let could be used inside a contend, and then if there's a semantic failure but STM success, or a STM failure, the variable will be returned to it's original state
03:02 dduncan maybe the determination is based on some dir being deleted, in which case that needs to not happen
03:02 dduncan heck, the main parts of Pugs, the haskell stuff, knows better about when it has changed, the Judy should have those smarts too
03:03 dduncan but I don't know how to do that
03:05 cmarcelo dduncan: i'll look into it.. just for check, doing the cp's without overwriting won't break you, right?
03:05 dduncan I don't know ... what exactly do you suggest I change to test?
03:06 dduncan presumably, if the code didn't change, overwriting with another copy of the same won't break
03:06 PerlJam dduncan:  Interesting use of "eternal" in the ===, eqv discussion  :)
03:06 dduncan well, "eternal" meaning for the life of the program
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03:07 dduncan 's execution
03:07 dduncan yes, I thought the issues were made clear in recent synopsis updates, but apparently some people didn't understand something
03:08 PerlJam dduncan: I imagine that some people still don't understand.
03:08 cmarcelo dduncan: i'm confused, your build broke because of copying the same libJudy.a? that's why you needed the change? (I think the ld error maybe related to file timestamps)..
03:08 dduncan PerlJam, I don't really see how the synopsis can be further improved ... they seem to explain it well now
03:09 dduncan at least if you know where in them to look
03:09 audreyt TimToady: the List->Array promotion magick. does it happen as part of Scalar's assignment interface, or at somewhere deeper?
03:09 audreyt $scalar = (1,2,3); # promotion: [1,2,3]
03:09 dduncan cmarcelo, I don't know a lot about the build system ... all I know is that making the change I did caused Pugs to build
03:10 audreyt sub f ($scalar) { ... }; f (1,2,3); # promotion still happens?
03:10 audreyt I guess not, as it's not assignment, right?
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03:12 cmarcelo dduncan: ok.
03:12 dduncan thank you for anything you can figure out
03:14 PerlJam audreyt: That seems an arbitrary rule from where I sit.  I hope that's not the case.
03:14 TimToady audreyt: I guess.
03:14 cmarcelo dduncan: np.. the important is get this build process working so people can forget about it and go back to "hack hack hack".. =)
03:15 TimToady I don't have a good feel for when the current mechanism will violate user's expectations.
03:15 audreyt PerlJam: arbitrary rule, yes. but
03:16 dduncan cmarcelo, you've hit the nail on the head
03:16 dduncan all I want to do is write Perl 6, and hopefully everything else will just stay out of the way
03:16 audreyt $x = sort $fh.readline; $x.push(4)
03:16 audreyt $x = 1..100; $x.push(101)
03:17 dduncan so simplicity in the build system for people not working on the build system is important
03:17 audreyt is the use case. alternative is to force people write [...]. but autopromotion like vivification is dwimmier
03:18 dduncan that is, implicity in the build system for people not making the Perl 6 interpreter itself is important
03:18 dduncan simplicity
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03:34 agentzh TimToady++  # JIT syn fixes
03:35 TimToady thanks
03:35 agentzh audreyt++  # JIT implementation fixes
03:35 agentzh TimToady: :)
03:35 TimToady I looked at several hundred words before picking START.
03:35 agentzh lunch &
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04:11 TreyHarris oh, dear.  upgrading my ghc from darwinports broke it horribly, and trying to go back is failing too :-(
04:12 TreyHarris anybody have any suggestions for where i might find some help?  the #macports channel is silent
04:13 nirgle been quiet in here tonight as well
04:14 TreyHarris this is not good.  i'm giving a talk to my company about how perl 6 is almost here, with a promise of running code.  "sorry, no demos, i couldn't get the haskell compiler to compile" is not going to go over well. :-)
04:16 TreyHarris i guess i can use my ancient 6.2.12 release pugs.  but i'll have to rework my examples so they don't use anything fixed/changed since mid-june
04:17 wolverian can't use ssh to another box?
04:17 weinig|zzz is now known as weinig
04:18 TreyHarris wolverian: i suppose i could.  i haven't built ghc or pugs anywhere else either though, it'll all been on my laptop
04:18 TreyHarris but maybe it'll build on another OS, good point
04:18 wolverian there's probably a recent pugs on feather somewhere
04:19 wolverian locate reports 14 bin/pugs files :)
04:19 wolverian ...building it yourself doesn't take too long, either
04:20 TreyHarris well, for my presentation it'll have to be somewhere inside the company firewall
04:20 wolverian ah. well, then. time to expand the firewall.
04:20 TreyHarris oh, yeah, i've built it many times.  i'm just getting no love from ghc tonight
04:21 wolverian well, I could talk about the package systems on osx
04:21 wolverian but I'm already feeling grumpy
04:21 wolverian time to go get some breakfast, cheers :)
04:22 TreyHarris thanks, take care
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04:30 audreyt TreyHarris: OSX Intel or ppc?
04:30 weinig is now known as weinig|zzz
04:30 audreyt if osx intel, I can probably cut you a bindist
04:32 TreyHarris audreyt: ppc, unfortunately :-(
04:33 Khisanth find a mac user in #haskell?
04:34 TreyHarris and ghc 6.4.2 required libreadline 5.1, so i upgraded that.  but now that it won't build, 6.4.1 won't build either because it's wanting libreadline 5.0.  and symlinking didn't work, apparently they're not binary-compatible
04:35 dduncan TreyHarris, I use Mac OS X 10.4 PPC, and GHC 6.4.1 binary package works fine
04:35 TreyHarris dduncan: oh, cool, where do i get it?
04:35 dduncan also, Pugs builds despite my lack of libreadline ... that's optional to its use
04:35 dduncan let me look ...
04:35 TreyHarris well, i really want libreadline if i'm going to be demoing in front of a live audience :-)
04:36 dduncan may be through http://www.haskell.org/ghc/ but I have to check
04:36 lambdabot Title: The Glasgow Haskell Compiler
04:37 audreyt TreyHarris: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/dist/6.4.1/MacOSX/GHC-6.4.1.pkg.zip
04:37 dduncan go to http://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_641.html#macosx
04:37 lambdabot Title: GHC: Download version 6.4.1
04:37 dduncan then the .pkg option
04:38 dduncan there's no 6.4.2 binary for OS X yet, but I'll try it out when it comes to be
04:38 dduncan this should install easily
04:38 svnbot6 r12291 | cmarcelo++ | * Fix to make unix build work after "make clean" or rm'ing third-party/installed.
04:38 dduncan any questions?
04:38 TreyHarris dduncan: it still wants libreadline5.0. :-(
04:39 dduncan but it will install anyway
04:39 TreyHarris it won't even start
04:39 TreyHarris sure, it did
04:39 TreyHarris but it won't run
04:39 TreyHarris even ghc --help fails on that
04:39 dduncan it won't run how?
04:39 TreyHarris i'll paste
04:39 cmarcelo dduncan: if is not much trouble, could you check if r12291 breaks you? (if you can't that's ok)
04:39 dduncan you installed the package, right?
04:39 dduncan then just run the Pugs Makefile.PL and you're set to go
04:40 dduncan I never run GHC directly
04:40 TreyHarris dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/local/lib/libreadline.5.0.dylib
04:40 TreyHarris dduncan: oh, ok... that's odd
04:40 dduncan Pugs Makefile.PL will test for libreadline's presence and skip using that feature if not
04:40 TreyHarris but i'll take your word for it, i'll try to build pugs
04:40 TreyHarris ok
04:40 dduncan cmarcelo, will try now ...
04:41 dduncan first, I'm trying the simplest case ... did pull, now simply running 'make'
04:41 audreyt TreyHarris: you sure it's the correct ghc in path?
04:42 dduncan if that fails, I'll rerun the Makefile.PL explicitly
04:42 dduncan or I'll do that too, anyway
04:42 dduncan running 'make' produced a Pugs binary ... the process also seems less verbose?
04:43 dduncan Pugs says: Version: 6.2.12 (r12291)
04:43 dduncan now trying a Makefile run ...
04:46 dduncan cmarcelo, nothing broke in either test, so congradulations
04:46 dduncan I haven't tried a make clean yet, but things don't at least suddenly break after an update from a non-breaking situation
04:47 dduncan for thoroughness, I will now try remaking from a wiped checkout dir ... will take about an hour
04:49 cmarcelo dduncan: thanks for testing..
04:49 dduncan you're welcome ... and it helps all of us
04:50 dduncan reversion done ... about to Makefile ...
04:51 dduncan fyi, this "cleanest" process I'm trying is to remove everything from the checkout dir, save my config.yaml and .smoke file, then svk revert -R .
04:51 dduncan no make realclean will make it that clean
04:54 dduncan on an unrelated matter, my Makefile.PL has been reporting: Could not find module `Data.ByteString' for awhile now, but Pugs still works
04:54 dduncan is that a problem?
04:54 dduncan will that library become mandatory later?
04:54 dduncan Makefile.pl done, now 'make' has started ...
04:55 cmarcelo dduncan: Data.ByteString is in fps (for ghc 6.4.x) and in GHC 6.5 base libraries... I think the msg happens when checking if fps is already installed..
04:56 dduncan so its just a separate thing for people running 6.4.x
04:57 audreyt that's just probing... would be nice to suppress it somehow
04:57 dduncan presumably, at such time that Pugs uses 6.6.x as its minimum GHC, this check will go away
04:57 audreyt yes.
04:57 audreyt once 6.6.0 bindist is out for win32 and osx and preferably debian
04:57 audreyt the current kluge-ridden build_pugs can go away as well :)
04:57 dduncan yes
04:57 audreyt currently we work around three mutually incompatible Cabal versions ;)
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04:58 dduncan is Cabal another way of saying GHC version?
04:58 audreyt no... Cabal to GHC is what Module::Build is to Perl5
04:58 dduncan okay
04:58 audreyt (or MakeMaker, if you will)
04:59 agentzh audreyt: pugs build is still failing on my machine...
04:59 dduncan incidentally, Perl 5.9.4 is on CPAN today ... NICE
04:59 dduncan probably a 5.8.9 not far behind
04:59 audreyt agentzh: nopaste the error again? I lost context
05:00 agentzh i'm pasting...
05:00 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "Today's pugs build failure on win32" (161 lines, 6.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19032
05:01 dduncan Pugs prereqs finished building, now the Pugs Haskell files themselves are ...
05:01 dduncan biab &
05:03 audreyt agentzh: this is very weird...
05:03 agentzh audreyt: oh no...
05:05 agentzh audreyt: i'll revert to earlier revisions and try again.
05:05 audreyt agentzh: wait
05:05 agentzh k
05:06 audreyt agentzh: comment out line 152 in build_pug
05:06 audreyt the "next;" line
05:06 audreyt (or maybe not 152, in vicinity)
05:06 agentzh k
05:06 audreyt to force rebuilding of fps, and see if that helps
05:07 agentzh trying...
05:08 agentzh it didn't help. now "realclean"...
05:08 dduncan another question, is this warning a known issue:
05:09 dduncan Compiling Pugs.Internals   ( src/Pugs/Internals.hs, dist/build/src/Pugs/Internals.o )     /tmp/ghc18692.hc: In function 's13ka_entry':       /tmp/ghc18692.hc:4866: warning: implicit declaration of function 'JudyLIns'
05:09 dduncan its been present for some time
05:09 dduncan (I mentioned it before, but no one said anything then)
05:09 agentzh audreyt: can you reproduce the same error on your win32 system?
05:10 agentzh audreyt: still the same outputs...
05:10 cmarcelo dduncan: i'm looking on that..
05:10 dduncan okay
05:11 cmarcelo agentzh: try "./Setup.hs clean" inside thjrd-party/HsJudy
05:11 agentzh cmarcelo: okay
05:11 audreyt agentzh: no I cannot...
05:11 * agentzh is lost.
05:11 audreyt let me think
05:13 audreyt that error message means that it's using either an outdated version of fps
05:13 audreyt or the fps is dummified
05:13 audreyt probably the latter
05:13 audreyt can you look at third-party/fps/fps.cabal
05:13 agentzh looking
05:14 audreyt I mean pugs-fps.cabal
05:14 audreyt and see if it contains the word "Dummy"?
05:14 agentzh no
05:15 agentzh i removed third-part completely and then revert from svn. but it still produced the same error.
05:16 agentzh maybe i should removed the whole pugs tree and checkout from svn from scratch?
05:16 agentzh or should i reinstall GHC or something else?
05:17 svnbot6 r12292 | audreyt++ | * explicit import of ByteString functions in HsSyc o try to debug for agentzh++'s buildfail
05:17 agentzh up'ing
05:18 audreyt still skip the "next" line in build_pugs
05:18 audreyt and nopaste the whole buildlog
05:18 agentzh from perl Makefile.PL?
05:19 audreyt from perl Makefile.PL and make, yes
05:19 agentzh ACK
05:20 agentzh that will be very very long... :)
05:21 agentzh done, now pasting...
05:22 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "perl Makefile.PL && nmake" (537 lines, 28.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19034
05:23 audreyt Building pugs-fps-0.7...
05:23 audreyt Setup.exe: \gcc-lib\ld.exe: runProcess: does not exist (No such file or directory)
05:24 audreyt that is the bug
05:24 audreyt curiously I've seen that before
05:24 agentzh oh?
05:24 agentzh Limbic_Region has ever encountered that error message.
05:25 agentzh (IIRC)
05:25 audreyt yes.
05:25 audreyt the bug is
05:25 audreyt            $new_runcompiler = File::Spec->catfile($1, "runcompiler$Config{_exe}");
05:25 audreyt it used to work but after your
05:25 audreyt            $ghc_inst_path =~ s{[/\\]bin[/\\]?$}{};
05:25 audreyt $1 gets reset
05:26 audreyt so you can't use $1 anymore
05:26 agentzh oh, my mistake...
05:26 audreyt why did you strip /bin/ anyway?
05:26 agentzh agentzh--
05:26 agentzh audreyt: because gcc.exe is in ../
05:26 agentzh i mean bin/../
05:26 audreyt ah ok.
05:27 audreyt fixed
05:27 audreyt committing
05:27 agentzh audreyt++ audreyt++
05:28 agentzh audreyt: sorry for taking you so much time...
05:28 agentzh up'ing
05:29 audreyt r12293
05:29 svnbot6 r12293 | audreyt++ | * build_pugs reorganization to fix the $1 bug agentzh++ introduced,
05:29 svnbot6 r12293 | audreyt++ |   and also improve support for "make profiled".
05:30 agentzh audreyt: it works!
05:31 cmarcelo audreyt: any idea why if I add "includes: Judy.h" in HsJudy.cabal, when compiling (after the deps) Pugs it needs that file too? and, in a static compilation scenario, libHSHsJudy*.a should include *.o files it uses from libJudy.a? -- if that's true, that's not happening...
05:32 audreyt cmarcelo: re#1: it's added as part of judy's lib requirements, so you can't do that
05:32 audreyt need to {-# INCLUDE #-} in the shource file itself
05:32 audreyt static compilation scenario: no, I don't think cabal does that for you; currently we manually run ar"
05:33 audreyt agentzh: yay :)
05:34 cmarcelo audreyt: makes sense merging libJudy.a into libHSHsJudy*.a ?
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05:35 * agentzh does a happy dance.
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05:36 audreyt cmarcelo: I'd say so, then you can lose the -lJudy line too
05:36 audreyt in .cabal
05:38 audreyt yay for "make profiled"  working again. I'm no longer blindly optimizing :)
05:41 agentzh audreyt, cmarcelo: should i add '-O3' option to judy's compilation? maybe it can be even faster. :)
05:41 agentzh audreyt++  # nmake fast
05:42 audreyt agentzh: I doubt it will help, but you can try on your machine first :)
05:43 agentzh k
05:43 audreyt (also my next perf patch is progressing well and will land in a bit)
05:51 dduncan cmarcelo, following the cleanest possible build, the build still works the first time through ...
05:52 audreyt yay
05:52 dduncan and then just hitting 'make' again after that doesn't wreck it:
05:52 dduncan Version: 6.2.12 (r12291)
05:52 dduncan so for now, we're in the clear
05:52 dduncan assuming your solution works for everyone else too
05:54 dduncan now trying r12293, as that changed the build system again ...
05:55 dduncan but just the quick way
05:55 agentzh adreyt: indeed you are right, -O3 doesn't lead to detectable performance improvement.
05:55 agentzh *audreyt
05:59 * agentzh goes back to hack on tests.
05:59 svnbot6 r12294 | agentz++ | [third-party/judy/Judy-1.0.3/src/hs_build.bat]
05:59 svnbot6 r12294 | agentz++ | cleaned up the echo outputs further.
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06:02 agentzh audreyt: this is just FYI, tests in http://sial.org/pbot/19009 still fail to parse after your fix.
06:02 lambdabot Title: Paste #19009 from "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67
06:05 TimToady that last "next" should be a "last", by the way.
06:06 agentzh TimToady: thanks. already fixed in my local do.t. :)
06:08 * agentzh thinks #perl6 needs at least 3 audreyts.
06:08 runrig I'm trying to build pugs on Win32, there's a bug in util/build_pugs.pl when it tries to munge $runcompile
06:09 runrig (munges on WIn32 only)
06:09 agentzh runrig: oh?
06:09 agentzh are you at the latest rev?
06:09 runrig I just checked it out ~30 minutes ago
06:09 agentzh audreyt has just fixed a bug in build_pugs.pl introduced earlier by me. :)
06:10 agentzh are you at r12293?
06:10 runrig I'll try update
06:12 runrig Now I am. man you guys move fast :)
06:13 agentzh :)
06:16 runrig Now it fails after a few "Setup.exe: error reading ./.setup-config; run "setup configure" command?"
06:17 runrig Trying to build HsSyck
06:20 agentzh runrig: try nmake realclean first?
06:21 agentzh and then "perl Makefile.PL" and "nmake fast"
06:21 svnbot6 r12295 | agentz++ | [t/statements/do.t]
06:21 svnbot6 r12295 | agentz++ | added many more tests according to S04.
06:21 svnbot6 r12295 | agentz++ | (please fix the parsefail for me)
06:23 agentzh runrig: if it still fails, please nopaste the outputs via http://sial.org/pbot/.
06:23 runrig ok
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06:29 pasteling "runrig" at 72.194.107.46 pasted "Build on Win32" (263 lines, 11.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19037
06:32 agentzh runrig: which version of GHC are you using?
06:32 svnbot6 r12296 | agentz++ | [t/syntax/hyper_latin1.t]
06:32 svnbot6 r12296 | agentz++ | used the \d... notation instead of the illegal \digits.
06:33 runrig 6.4.2
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06:34 agentzh hmm, the error is at "C:\pugs-svn-src\gcc-lib\ld.exe"
06:35 runrig what is runProcess ?
06:36 agentzh the system call.
06:36 agentzh it doesn't happen on my machine.
06:36 agentzh audreyt: ping
06:39 agentzh runrig: sorry, i can't fix it. please ask audreyt or other folks who are familiar with the pugs build system.
06:40 runrig Where is runProcess supposed to exist at?
06:40 agentzh runrig: anyway, you can cheat.
06:41 agentzh runrig: how about copy ld.exe from the GHC directory to C:\pugs-svn-src\gcc-lib\?
06:41 agentzh *copying
06:42 runrig what version ghc do you have?
06:42 agentzh copy c:\ghc\ghc-6.4.2\bin\ld.exe C:\pugs-svn-src\gcc-lib\
06:42 agentzh runrig: the same as yours.
06:42 agentzh 6.4.2
06:43 agentzh mkdir C:\pugs-svn-src\gcc-lib in case it doesn't exist.
06:44 agentzh runrig: please copy ld.exe from C:\ghc\ghc-6.4.2\bin to C:\pugs-svn-src\gcc-lib\ to see if it works.
06:46 runrig ok
06:46 runrig I'm making realclean again
06:47 agentzh runrig: don't need to. :)
06:48 agentzh "nmake fast" directly will be sufficient. :)
06:48 runrig too late...and I forgot to nmake "fast"...just nmake
06:48 agentzh stop it.
06:48 runrig I'll get it right eventually :)
06:48 agentzh with Ctrl-C.
06:49 agentzh nmake took too much time.
06:49 agentzh nmake fast++
06:51 runrig hey, it's getting farther :)
06:52 agentzh what error did you get this time?
06:52 agentzh (if any)
06:53 runrig c:/ghc/ghc-6.4.2/include/HsBase.h: In function `__hscore_d_name':
06:53 runrig c:/ghc/ghc-6.4.2/include/HsBase.h:508: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplet
06:53 runrig e type
06:53 runrig Build failed: 256 at util\build_pugs.pl line 238.
06:54 agentzh weird.
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06:54 agentzh runrig: paste the whole output to the paster?
06:58 agentzh runrig: are you still around?
07:00 svnbot6 r12297 | agentz++ | build_pugs.pl: added debug outputs for Win32.
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07:00 agentzh runrig: please update to r12297 and then paste your outputs of "nmake fast".
07:00 runrig Yes. I'm getting it
07:01 agentzh runrig: btw, you're on winxp or win2000>
07:01 agentzh ?
07:01 runrig xp
07:02 agentzh ah
07:06 svnbot6 r12298 | agentz++ | build_pugs.pl - more debug outputs specific to win32.
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07:11 agentzh runrig: i'll try to reproduce your error on my machine.
07:13 agentzh runrig: i'm amazed to see my pugs build also fails after a realclean now.
07:14 runrig Do you still want the nmake output?
07:14 agentzh yeah
07:15 agentzh my outputs are different from yours.
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07:19 * agentzh thinks the GHC cabal is a source of pain.
07:19 pdcawley joined perl6
07:20 pasteling "runrig" at 72.194.107.46 pasted "Pugs build on Win32" (303 lines, 20.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19038
07:20 agentzh looking
07:22 runrig Is that line near the top suspicious: "c:\ghc\ghc-6.4.2\gcc-lib\ld.exe: cannot find -libpath:C:\Perl\lib\CORE"
07:22 runrig there is a c:\perl\lib\CORE dir
07:23 audreyt my fault. fixed:
07:24 runrig or is that for embedded perl5 which doesn't work on win32 anyway?
07:24 audreyt right
07:24 audreyt but with vanilla perl, we have a chance to succeed embperl5 on win32 actually
07:24 audreyt since both were built with mingw
07:25 agentzh yay, audreyt is back!
07:25 audreyt or strawberry perl
07:25 audreyt r12299 should unbreak it
07:25 agentzh up'ing
07:25 svnbot6 r12299 | audreyt++ | * unbreak win32 build... sorry about this tangled mess :/
07:26 runrig ok, here we go again
07:28 agentzh nice, i'm at Pugs.Val now.
07:28 runrig If I want to learn Haskell while I play w/pugs, any recommendations which hs files should I look into first?
07:29 runrig . o O (If i get to the play w/pugs stage :)
07:29 runrig as opposed to the "building pugs" stage :)
07:29 * agentzh ever tried to learn Haskell but finally gave up.
07:31 cmarcelo agentzh: what made you give up?
07:31 audreyt runrig: READTHEM
07:31 agentzh cmarcelo: i found that i could only write trivial programs in haskell.
07:33 agentzh cmarcelo: when i wanted to write something big in haskell, my head ached.
07:34 audreyt the initial unlearning is especially hard :)
07:34 agentzh it's a very different language compared to perl/c/c++/java/pascal/ruby/python/etc...
07:34 cmarcelo agentzh: I thought the problem was IO/Monad thing... recently there are *very nice* tutorials out there coming up about Monads and I/O.
07:34 agentzh cmarcelo: oh?
07:35 cmarcelo agentzh: lots of people give up when it's time to understand that monadic I/O stuff.. don't know if you got there..
07:35 runrig I get the same "dereferencing pointer" error in HsBase.h
07:35 agentzh cmarcelo: yes, i've got there.
07:36 * agentzh has already built pugs.
07:37 dolmans Could not find module `Judy.IntMap': building still end with this.
07:37 agentzh dolmans: are you also on win32?
07:37 dolmans yes
07:37 agentzh oh, dear...
07:37 dolmans what
07:37 agentzh win32 nightmare...
07:37 dolmans :)
07:38 agentzh it seems only *I* can successfully build pugs on win32 now.
07:38 agentzh realclean?
07:38 dolmans try now
07:38 agentzh have you run "nmake realclean" before "nmake fast" or such?
07:39 agentzh k
07:39 audreyt runrig: nopaste the build log again?
07:40 audreyt agentzh: I wonder if your setup is cygwin specific somehow
07:40 agentzh audreyt: it's likely.
07:40 agentzh audreyt: some cygwin tools are in my path.
07:40 agentzh so my win32 is not pure...
07:41 * agentzh feels proud.
07:41 audreyt ok... I'll take a look after I finish this coding run
07:42 xinming audreyt: hmm,  .method, will the return value store int $_ by default?
07:43 agentzh dolmans: please also make sure you're at the latest revision.
07:43 xinming hmm, what I mean is, should $_.method update the $_ with the value return by method.
07:43 agentzh xinming: .method === $_.method
07:43 xinming agentzh: I know this
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07:44 agentzh xinming: only if the .method itself is a inplace call.
07:44 agentzh *an
07:44 xinming a bit hard to understand, Ok, try this...
07:44 xinming ?eval $_ = "abc"; .perl; .perl; .perl;
07:44 evalbot_23471 is now known as evalbot_23506
07:44 evalbot_23506 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
07:45 xinming hmm...
07:45 audreyt ?eval $_ = "abc"
07:45 evalbot_23506 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
07:45 audreyt oy. very broken.
07:45 agentzh heh, it's a pugs bug.
07:45 xinming ?eval temp $_ = "abc"; .perl; .perl; .perl;
07:45 audreyt it's evalbot bug :)
07:45 evalbot_23506 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "perl6"
07:45 audreyt ?eval my $_ = "abc"; .perl
07:45 evalbot_23506 "\\\"abc\""
07:45 audreyt ?eval my $_ = "abc"; .perl; .perl; .perl;
07:45 xinming audreyt: You can try that in interactive shell.
07:45 evalbot_23506 "\\\"abc\""
07:46 audreyt ?eval my $_ = "abc"; .=perl; .=perl; .=perl;
07:46 evalbot_23506 Error:  unexpected "=" expecting ".", subroutine name, array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript
07:46 audreyt I wonder if ".=perl" should work.
07:46 audreyt .=chomp;
07:46 agentzh heh
07:47 audreyt TimToady: .=chomp? :)
07:47 xinming ?eval if 1 { "perl" } .perl; .perl; .perl;
07:47 evalbot_23506 "\\\"perl6\""
07:47 xinming ouch...
07:47 xinming audreyt: please test that in interactive shell. It will update the $_ value..
07:48 xinming the value in $_ would be updated every time you call .perl
07:49 audreyt xinming: interactive shell uses $_ to remember the value of the last expression
07:49 svnbot6 r12300 | audreyt++ | * evalbot: try to make $_ empty
07:49 audreyt that... may be construed as a bug
07:49 audreyt though it was designed as a feature
07:50 xinming audreyt: Oh, Ok, thanks. :-)
07:50 audreyt you think it's a bad idea?
07:50 * audreyt is not sure
07:51 xinming audreyt: yes, because, when someone test expression in pugs, he would thought, all return value would default stored in $_ no matter what method is called. :-)
07:51 pdcawley joined perl6
07:51 * agentzh finds many typos in xinming's message.
07:52 xinming agentzh: sorry for my poor English. :-P
07:52 agentzh xinming: s/would thought/would think/
07:52 xinming would thought -> would think.  all return value would ---> all return values would be :-)
07:52 dolmans rept. successful building on Win32.
07:53 xinming Chinese English ... :-)
07:53 agentzh dolmans: congrats!
07:53 agentzh xinming: :)
07:53 dolmans yay.
07:53 agentzh chglish is cool!
07:54 agentzh *chenglish
07:54 xinming I didn't think much when I was typing for a long time. I know I'm doing much better when I left senior school.  :-/
07:54 agentzh xinming: i have been typing slowly since i'm also in fear of typos.
07:54 xinming s q{'m}{ was}
07:55 TimToady audreyt: I wonder if proto foo($self: ...) always defers to SMD immediately.
07:55 audreyt TimToady: aka "extension methods"
07:55 audreyt but we sill need to populate the namespace with &foo
07:55 TimToady proto push(%array: ...)
07:56 pasteling "runrig" at 72.194.107.46 pasted "Another Win32 pugs build" (302 lines, 20.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19039
07:56 audreyt so there will still be the notion of builtin (i.e. exported as proto) and non
07:56 audreyt and module authors that desires a procedural interfaces
07:56 audreyt will then need to write those proto is export
07:56 audreyt or maybe (this is getting slightly scray) "method foo (...) is export" generates that?
07:57 TimToady maybe.
07:57 audreyt I like the latter one
07:57 audreyt cleaner than proto, easier to explain (at least for builtin libraries)
07:57 TimToady well, but someone still has to import them to *
07:57 audreyt "if you export a method then it behves as a function"
07:58 audreyt sure, that's the job of the prelude
07:58 audreyt S29's idea is already that GLOBAL.pm is essentially a set of import statements...
07:58 TimToady seems notationally convenient.
07:58 TimToady S29-wise.
07:58 audreyt and conceptually not two entities
07:58 audreyt (which is what I'm uncomfortable with)
07:59 TimToady basically you're exporting a macro that rewrites foo(a,b) to foo(a:b)
07:59 audreyt aye.
08:00 TimToady seems livable, and suppressable.  I think I like it.
08:00 audreyt unless we export a multi that keys on Array.
08:00 audreyt but the latter is very hard to suppress.
08:00 audreyt (and harder to explain)
08:00 audreyt so yay. :) likeable++
08:00 TimToady suppress the macro and then write your own proto.
08:01 audreyt importing a macro is just like inporting a function, so you can suppress it with normal import protocol
08:01 TimToady if you reall want that.
08:01 audreyt which is nice
08:01 TimToady *really
08:01 TimToady anything else major I'm supposed to be thinking about?
08:02 audreyt .=foo is not major :)
08:02 audreyt nothing other than mmd-draft.txt, I think
08:02 TimToady ok, in that case I'll zzz.
08:02 dakkar joined perl6
08:03 audreyt good night and thanks! :)
08:03 TimToady likewise &
08:03 * agentzh thinks TimToady has been well past his bedtime.
08:03 * runrig still wonders what's wrong w/his build...
08:03 * runrig is up past zzz-time also
08:03 agentzh runrig: realclean didn't help?
08:04 runrig I checked out a whole brand-new directory :)
08:04 agentzh wow.
08:04 dolmans realclean helped me indeed.
08:04 agentzh dolmans++
08:04 agentzh dolmans: do you have cygwin installed?
08:05 dolmans no, but i have MinGW, really some tools from GNUWin32.
08:05 runrig The error I get seems like an error in a ghc haskell include file
08:05 agentzh okay
08:05 agentzh runrig: maybe reinstall your GHC?
08:06 runrig I had MinGW but uninstalled it earlier...
08:06 agentzh runrig: i don't MinGW is required here.
08:06 agentzh *think
08:06 agentzh plain win32 should work.
08:06 dolmans install MinGW or Cygwin is handy if you play with open source.
08:06 agentzh indeed!
08:06 runrig I usually use UnxUtils (I have that at work)
08:07 dolmans UnxUtils? i think it is old fashioned.
08:07 runrig Aye, I like Unix, but I got this Win box for free :)
08:08 cmarcelo audreyt: between u/build_pugs builds the deps and build pugs, i added a little hack to "ar r" judy files in installed/libHSHsJudy.. is it ok to "patch" only the installed one? with this there's no more -lJudy in HsJudy neither Pugs, so less trouble in building..
08:10 traecer left perl6
08:11 audreyt cmarcelo: sure!
08:11 kane-xs joined perl6
08:14 agentzh audreyt: please help runrig. only he can't build pugs on win32 now. :)
08:15 audreyt runrig: I think you have cygwin and/or unxutils header in PATH
08:18 TreyHarris audreyt: so i'm finished with my dependency hell, and i've gotten the binary build dduncan++ pointed me at to build and run, but configure's still saying readline support disabled.  i've verified that libreadline is installed.  any ideas?
08:19 dduncan greetings
08:19 TreyHarris s:2nd/build/build things/
08:19 dduncan does it matter?
08:19 dduncan try running Pugs ... does it not do something you need?
08:19 ruoso joined perl6
08:20 audreyt TreyHarris: yes. your readline is apple's fake readline
08:20 TreyHarris i'm demoing in front of a live audience.  if i have to retype every line every time... wait, are you saying i can hit up-arrow even without readline?
08:20 audreyt check /usr/include/readline.h to see if it says "editline"
08:20 TreyHarris audreyt: oh?  i used fink to install it, so i figured it would be gnu readline
08:20 dduncan fink puts things in special places ...
08:20 audreyt yeah. problem is whether fink's include path is earlier than /usr/include
08:21 dduncan they may not be visible to other programs installed the "normal" way
08:21 audreyt also, I think even in non-readline mode, up arrow may work. I'm not very sure
08:21 TreyHarris it did on the build i had yesterday
08:21 dduncan I'll try it myself ...
08:21 TreyHarris but now everything's broken :-(
08:22 dduncan hitting up/down-arrow in pugs just spouts gibberish
08:22 dduncan for me, lacking the full readline
08:22 audreyt TreyHarris: you need to put readline in /usr/local/lib/
08:23 audreyt but you can fix that
08:23 audreyt install_name_tool -change /usr/local/lib/libreadline.5.0.dylib \ /some/new/path/libreadline.5.0.dylib \ ghc-6.4.1/lib/powerpc-apple-darwin/ghc-6.4.1
08:23 dduncan however, if you don't want to retype everything, the Terminal application handles the Mac OS X pastebuffer just fine
08:23 TreyHarris audreyt: in /usr/local/lib i have libreadline.5.1.dylib and libreadline.a
08:23 gaal joined perl6
08:23 audreyt it wants 5.0.dylib
08:23 audreyt not sure if ln will work
08:23 dduncan eg, have a text editor window open with all your code, and just copy and paste each example into Pugs
08:23 TreyHarris ohh, that must be my problem
08:23 dduncan hitting Paste on a terminal will be just like you typed it in whereever the cursor is
08:24 dduncan the Terminal also does drag'n'drop just fine ...
08:24 dduncan also acting like you typed it in
08:24 dduncan fyi
08:25 dduncan of course, if you like readline and can get it to work, more power to you
08:25 TreyHarris dduncan: thank you.  i'm aware of all that.  but dealing with a presentation and one full-screen-sized terminal is enough for me to juggle while on camera, i've already rehearsed using commandline editing, because until today, pugs had that feature for me :-)
08:25 dduncan fair enough
08:25 TreyHarris i know for certain that if i don't have readline, i'm going to hit the arrow keys and spew garbage in front of everyone :-)
08:26 TreyHarris even if i tape a sticky note to the podium saying, "don't hit the arrow keys!" :-)
08:27 dduncan so what's happening? ... are you proposing your organization starts coding their stuff in Perl 6 now?
08:27 dduncan and you're demoing that it's ready?
08:27 TreyHarris no
08:28 TreyHarris it's my turn to do a tech talk, and since i'm always going on about "well, in perl 6 you'll be able to..." on our internal perl lists, they asked me to give a talk on it already
08:28 audreyt TreyHarris: I'm pretty sure if 5.0.dylib is there it'd work :)
08:29 TreyHarris audreyt: what should /some/new/path/libreadline.5.0.dylib be?
08:30 dduncan sounds good
08:31 dduncan btw, in the near future, if installing libreadline is easy, I'll try doing it myself ... I had skipped that before for simplicity
08:31 TreyHarris ahh, it's in /sw/lib/libreadline.*
08:31 TreyHarris but symlinking it to /usr/local/bin does not seem to have made things happy
08:33 TreyHarris this is very interesting, though.  the saved pugs 6.2.12 (r10874) that i have, if i run otool -L on it, reports back /usr/local/lib/libreadline.5.1.dylib
08:33 TreyHarris which is the one i have
08:33 TreyHarris so it's just refusing to build a new one now :-)
08:34 audreyt so don't symlink :)
08:34 TreyHarris audreyt: oh, no, i undid that
08:35 audreyt ok
08:35 TreyHarris but configure says i don't have readline
08:35 TreyHarris but i do
08:35 audreyt does /some/new/path/ fix that?
08:35 audreyt i.e. with the relocation line
08:35 TreyHarris ohh... you literally mean to use the string "/some/new/path/"?  i thought you were using that as a placeholder
08:35 audreyt nono
08:35 audreyt that was a placeholder
08:35 audreyt but you really need to point it to a 5.0.dylib
08:35 audreyt not a 5.1.dylib
08:35 audreyt I think
08:36 TreyHarris but all i have right now (in /usr/local, not counting what fink has installed in /sw and ports has installed in /opt/local) is 5.1.  and that's what otool shows my running pugs (which does editing just fine) using
08:38 audreyt yes because you used a later GHC (6.4.2?)
08:38 TreyHarris the obvious next step (blowing away the 5.1 and trying to replace it with 5.0) could leave both my old and my new pugs builds without readline support :-)
08:38 audreyt which links against 5.1.dylib
08:38 audreyt don't blow anything away
08:38 audreyt just put a 5.0.dylib
08:38 TreyHarris right... but GHC refused to rebuild today
08:38 TreyHarris but i couldn't go back to the old 6.4.2.  so i had to use the binary build dduncan++ pointed me at, which is 6.4.1
08:39 audreyt TreyHarris: hand install with ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/readline/readline-5.0.tar.gz
08:39 TreyHarris the moral of the story is, if you can live with what you have, leave well enough alone. :-)
08:39 audreyt is perhaps easiest.
08:40 TreyHarris audreyt: best idea yet :-)
08:40 TreyHarris audreyt++
08:41 TreyHarris that's funny, i just threw that FTP URL to the mac and expected it to open Firefox.  it gave the URL to the Finder.  which is now downloading it.  bizarre.
08:50 cmarcelo audreyt: ghc INCLUDE pragma must be in every file that uses imported funcs?
08:50 TreyHarris hmm.  i know i've seen this before.  make gives "Makefile:302: *** multiple target patterns.  Stop."
08:50 audreyt cmarcelo: yeah :/
08:50 audreyt TreyHarris: on making readline 5.0?
08:50 TreyHarris audreyt: correct
08:51 TreyHarris all i did was "./configure; make"
08:51 audreyt are you perhaps not using gnu make?
08:51 TreyHarris i tried "./configure; gnumake" too
08:55 runrig Yeah, I think it's compiling now
08:55 audreyt well there's prebuilt one with http://pythonmac.org/packages/readline-5.0-py2.3-macosx10.3.zip
08:56 runrig found the answer in google groups...unset PUGS_EMBED on Win32
08:57 audreyt oh. you tried to embed perl5?
08:58 runrig Yes, I stupidly set it to "perl5 parrot" at first and forgot about it. I didn't think it should matter though
08:58 pasteling "TreyHarris" at 207.171.180.101 pasted "ghc apparently has its *own* readline" (15 lines, 1.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19040
08:59 TreyHarris audreyt: oh, so i just noticed this.  ghc has its own readline.  so this really should work
09:00 audreyt libHSreadline_dyn is a binding
09:00 audreyt it still wants external readline.
09:00 TreyHarris no, i'm talking about /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.4.1/libreadline.5.0.dylib
09:00 TreyHarris the second line of output in that paste
09:01 runrig It's "done". and I'm done for tonight. g'nite.
09:02 runrig left perl6
09:05 * agentzh is rewriting util/catalog_tests from scratch, which will support both the new magic links and the old ones.
09:05 TreyHarris audreyt: fyi, that mpkg only contains a readline.so
09:06 agentzh supper &
09:06 agentzh left perl6
09:07 TreyHarris wow, 12 hours to build today's pugs so far.  and not a moment of it spent on actually building pugs. :-)
09:08 TreyHarris i will never, ever, *ever* run "port upgrade installed" again :-)
09:09 cmarcelo dduncan agentzh et al: I have a new patch for u/build_pugs.pl that may help a little bit the linking situation, it uses "ar" to get all .o files of Judy into installed HsJudy*.a file, so Pugs doesn't need to link to Judy (-lJudy won't exist). Also it fixed partially the warnings that were happening. Could one of you that already have a win32 build working help me testing this patch?
09:11 audreyt TreyHarris: try
09:11 audreyt http://perlcabal.org/~audreyt/tmp/libreadline.5.0.dylib
09:11 dduncan I don't use win32 at all
09:11 audreyt and put them into /usr/local/lib/
09:12 audreyt (it's ppc tiger.)
09:12 audreyt (surprisingly I had an old G4 laying around.)
09:13 cmarcelo dduncan: sorry, mistakenly put your name there =o), but it's solving the warning problem you reported also (at least in part)..
09:13 dduncan I'll see what happens ...
09:16 TreyHarris audreyt: thanks.  running pugs configure again...
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09:19 cmarcelo audreyt: do you have an easy access win32 "near" you with pugs building proc working? can help me here?
09:21 TreyHarris audreyt: there's nothing i have to run to register the dylib?  just put it into /usr/local/lib?
09:24 audreyt TreyHarris: I think so.
09:24 audreyt cmarcelo: I can boot parallels
09:24 audreyt give me another 30 mins?
09:26 cmarcelo sure! ping me when ready...
09:26 dduncan cmarcello, I didn't see any new commits since we talked
09:26 TreyHarris huh.  well, i put it in, reinstalled the GHC binary package, make clean, configure.  still "Readline support disabled.  If you want readline support, please install the GNU readline library."  sigh.  oh well, guess i'll give up for today.  maybe i'll email the local haskell users group and see if anybody can help me
09:27 dduncan as for r12300, which I built some time ago, it built without errors
09:27 TreyHarris thanks for your help, audreyt++
09:27 dduncan maybe that's what you meant
09:27 audreyt TreyHarris: sigh. sorry about that :/
09:27 audreyt TreyHarris: I still think it might have picked up the wrong dylib.
09:28 audreyt i.e. the one in /usr/lib/* or /usr/include/readline/* or something
09:28 audreyt TreyHarris: hey, maybe I can send you a ppc binary pugs :)
09:28 audreyt but in any case... try build without readline and see if that works.
09:29 cmarcelo dduncan: i'm kind of afraid of committing right now and breaking people all over again =P... i was asking for help of someone to test right after I commit, to avoid more breakage..
09:30 dduncan well, I'm about to go to bed, so if this would cause everything to be recompiled, it'll have to wait for tomorrow ... I'll signal you then
09:31 cmarcelo dduncan: thinking now => i'm worried about your case because I change a ".a" file, and ld may complain..
09:32 dduncan do you want to commit this now or can you wait until tomorrow?
09:33 dduncan go ahead and commit now then ... I'll try to test it now and hope it doesn't take too long
09:33 cmarcelo dduncan: ok. test with just a "make" to see if it works.. [less recompilation]
09:34 dduncan let me know when the commit is done
09:36 cmarcelo dduncan: 12301 commited..
09:36 svnbot6 r12301 | cmarcelo++ | * Uses AR to get judy object files into libHSHsJudy...a, so
09:36 svnbot6 r12301 | cmarcelo++ | we don't need -lJudy anymore (less pain?). Also gets rid of
09:36 svnbot6 r12301 | cmarcelo++ | some warnings in HsJudy build. Need to test in win32.
09:36 dduncan ok
09:40 dduncan cmarcelo, so far, so good ... ran 'make' twice and it produced a Pugs each time
09:40 cmarcelo dduncan: try this
09:40 dduncan I'm now running Makefile.PL again
09:40 cmarcelo rm third-party/installed/lib/HsJudy and then make
09:40 dduncan okay
09:40 cmarcelo (to check the warning thing)
09:41 cmarcelo also ./Setup clean in t-p/HsJudy before make
09:41 cmarcelo and s/make/make fast/ =)
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09:50 audreyt a wonder what a bit huffmanization can do :)
09:50 audreyt (unoptimized -> fast)
09:51 gaal "make now"
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09:52 cmarcelo audreyt++ # huffmanization =)
10:03 audreyt gaal: I'm almost finished in converting Var to newland
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10:04 audreyt data Var = MkVar { v_sigil   :: VarSigil , v_twigil  :: VarTwigil , v_package :: Pkg , v_categ   :: VarCateg , v_name    :: ByteString } deriving (Eq, Ord, Typeable, Data)
10:04 audreyt which should put a stop to all adhoc string manipulations in runcore
10:04 gaal woohoo!
10:04 gaal what's VarTwigil?
10:04 audreyt you know, like those in possiblyBuildVCode* etc
10:04 audreyt data VarTwigil = TNone | TAttribute | TPrivate | TImplicit | TMagical | TDoc    deriving (Enum, Eq, Ord, Typeable, Data)
10:05 gaal Excellent
10:06 audreyt I also suspect it will make runcore much faster
10:06 gaal and Categ is CMember | Csomething else
10:06 audreyt but it's now parsing-dominating already
10:06 audreyt er no
10:06 audreyt data VarCateg     = CNone    | C_prefix_circumfix_meta_operator    | C_infix_circumfix_meta_operator     | C_prefix_postfix_meta_operator    | C_postfix_prefix_meta_operator     | C_infix_postfix_meta_operator     | C_statement_modifier    | C_statement_control    | C_scope_declarator
10:06 audreyt etc etc
10:07 audreyt haskell really shines on refactoring :)
10:07 plisk joined perl6
10:07 audreyt (aka type-error-directed translation)
10:08 gaal indeed
10:08 gaal but I don't understand Categ then
10:08 gaal (what's it doing in Var)
10:10 audreyt infix:moose
10:10 audreyt is now just "moose"
10:11 audreyt as v_name
10:11 audreyt and v_categ is C_infix
10:11 audreyt remember the ('i':'n':'f':'i':'x':rest) code?
10:11 audreyt :)
10:12 integral yay! audreyt++
10:14 dduncan cmarcelo, I did everything you said, and the Pugs build did not break
10:14 audreyt integral: and it's all ByteString this time :)
10:14 * integral drools
10:15 integral it's all noticably faster.   Still way behind p5 on mandel.pl though :-(
10:15 audreyt this checkin will help on that front
10:15 cmarcelo dduncan: ok. thank you.
10:15 cmarcelo i'll wait for news on win32..
10:15 dduncan welcome
10:15 dduncan indeed
10:16 dduncan oh, and it seems someone caught a typo in my last p6l post, so I tried correcting myself
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10:17 dduncan goodnight, &
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10:27 gaal audreyt: oh, excellent!
10:28 gaal btw I'm still rooting for a Hasekll' syntax to express 't':'h':'i':'s':in:pattern:matches
10:29 gaal though you know, maybe making it hard encourages refactorings like this, so... :-)
10:37 cmarcelo gaal: how did you get the stack trace of pugs segfault on prelude generation? when in "gdb ./pugs" it behave well. only blows when called by gen_prelude...
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10:40 * agentzh is back from supper & walk.
10:41 agentzh cmarcelo: i'll test your updates here.
10:41 cmarcelo agentzh: great.
10:41 agentzh up'ing
10:45 agentzh cmarcelo: there're serveral warnings while compiling Judy.MiniGC and Judy.Hash. is that okay?
10:46 agentzh cmarcelo: incremental build has finished. is it required to do "realclean" and build from scratch again?
10:50 cmarcelo agentzh: less warnings than before?
10:51 agentzh cmarcelo: so the current logic is bypassing libJudy.a completely.
10:51 agentzh cmarcelo: yes, much less warnings.
10:51 agentzh cmarcelo: then there's no need to build libJudy.a at all, right?
10:52 cmarcelo agentzh: yes. we don't need it anymore..
10:52 agentzh great, i'll make the win32 build even simpler.
10:52 agentzh cmarcelo++
10:53 cmarcelo cool... (test it with a clean checkout if you can... and "make fast" is your friend to check builds)
10:53 cmarcelo =)
10:53 agentzh cmarcelo: sure
10:55 agentzh during the meantime...does anyone know if there's a CPAN module which can perform POD ==> tree (AST) ==> POD?
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10:59 agentzh cmarcelo: fresh build also works here. :D
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11:06 gaal cmarcelo: I told my shell not to limit core sizes. with tcsh it's "unlimit coredumpsize".
11:06 gaal then I made it crash
11:06 gaal and then, gdb pugs corefile
11:06 gaal this is also faster than running under gdb :)
11:07 audreyt agentzh: Pod::Simple?
11:07 agentzh audreyt: does Pod::Simple generate a tree?
11:10 agentzh hmm, Pod::Simple::SimpleTree doesn't seem to do what i want.
11:11 agentzh so i'll have to write my own implementation, which shouldn't be hard. ;-)
11:11 agentzh cmarcelo: pugs' realclean doesn't remove Judy's *.o
11:12 agentzh cmarcelo: so i'll add it to Makefile.PL.
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11:14 cmarcelo agentzh: also remove libJudy.* on src/obj/.libs too... ?
11:14 agentzh cmarcelo: okay
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11:15 agentzh cmarcelo: does "src/obj/.libs/*" okay?
11:15 agentzh *is
11:16 cmarcelo i think so..
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11:17 cmarcelo agentzh: hmm.. could you call make clean instead ?
11:17 cmarcelo inside judy/Judy-1.0.3 ?
11:18 agentzh cmarcelo: "make clean" can't work on win32.
11:19 agentzh there's no win32-compatible Makefile under judy/Judy-1.0.3. :)
11:20 cmarcelo ok. just a sec then
11:22 * agentzh wonders if cmarcelo is writing a Makefile.PL for Judy-1.0.3.
11:23 cmarcelo (not that, but later I could try, if M.PL syntax isn't too hard...)
11:23 cmarcelo i'm checking whats need to be deleted to ensure that everything will be recompiled..
11:24 cmarcelo just nuking src/*/*.o and src/obj/.libs/* , and then "make", do nothing..
11:24 agentzh cmarcelo: writing a portal Makefile is possible.
11:25 agentzh cmarcelo: you know, i'm the author of Makefile::Parser. ;-)
11:25 cmarcelo agentzh: src/*/*.o src/*/*.lo src/obj/.libs/*
11:26 agentzh cmarcelo: i'll write a Makefile for Judy then.
11:26 cmarcelo i'll be happy if you nuke that in realclean...
11:26 agentzh i'll invoke $(MAKE) from Makefile.PL.
11:26 agentzh i mean "$(MAKE) clean".
11:29 cmarcelo agentzh: didn't knew about M::Parser (not only HS newbie but also perl newbie =o) )... M::GraphViz looks nice too =)
11:30 agentzh they need a rewite though. ;-)
11:31 cmarcelo well, nuking that list seems to be enough.. maybe do both to "ensure" everything will be dead..
11:31 agentzh cmarcelo: i'm now pondering writing a clean.pl.
11:31 cmarcelo agentzh: for judy only? or for pugs?
11:32 agentzh for judy only
11:32 cmarcelo spinclad: ping
11:33 cmarcelo why don't "$(MAKE) clean"?
11:34 cmarcelo ++ nuking "the list"
11:35 agentzh cmarcelo: anyway, i'll add your list to Makefile.PL, which seems to be the simplest solution.
11:35 agentzh    \@\$(RM_RF) third-party/judy/Judy-*/src/.a
11:35 agentzh    \@\$(RM_RF) third-party/judy/Judy-*/src/*/*.o
11:35 agentzh    \@\$(RM_RF) third-party/judy/Judy-*/src/*/*.lo
11:35 agentzh    \@\$(RM_RF) third-party/judy/Judy-*/src/obj/.libs/*
11:36 cmarcelo src/.a ?
11:36 agentzh cmarcelo: it's for win32.
11:36 agentzh oh, sorry, src/*.a
11:37 cmarcelo ok
11:37 agentzh my mistake...
11:37 agentzh $(MAKE) clean won't work on Win32.
11:38 agentzh now testing on my machine...
11:40 cmarcelo gaal: tks for the tip. for historical reference: in bash that's "ulimit -c unlimited"..
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11:44 agentzh cmarcelo: done.
11:44 svnbot6 r12302 | agentz++ | [util/build_pugs.pl, third-party/judy]
11:44 svnbot6 r12302 | agentz++ | simplified the win32 building of judy (since no libJudy.a is required)
11:44 svnbot6 r12302 | agentz++ | [Makefile.PL]
11:44 svnbot6 r12302 | agentz++ | added judy cleanup to pugs' realclean target.
11:44 svnbot6 r12302 | agentz++ | [t/statements/do.t]
11:44 svnbot6 r12302 | agentz++ | fixed a typo in the comment
11:46 gaal cmarcelo: thanks. I grew up on tcsh for interactive work, I guess it's out of fashion now but I'm used to it...
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11:47 pmurias hi,
11:48 pmurias how much beside translating the haskell core language be nessesary to have haskell runing on parrot
11:48 gaal ooh! :)
11:49 pmurias the haskell core as in:
11:49 pmurias http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/papers/core.ps.gz
11:49 gaal you need GC...
11:50 pmurias does haskell need any sort of hiper-magic garbage collection api, or
11:50 pmurias would the parrot one suffice?
11:51 gaal actually, I don't know. I think GHC has generational GC but this is outside my area of competence...
11:52 pmurias would asking on #haskell be better than?
11:52 svnbot6 r12303 | agentz++ | [Makefile.PL]
11:52 svnbot6 r12303 | agentz++ | s/RM_RF/RM_F/g
11:53 gaal sure
11:53 audreyt pmurias: yhc is perhaps easier
11:54 audreyt and/or jhc
11:54 audreyt yhc is bytecode interpreted
11:54 gaal (re: generational GC, not that that ought to matter for operation - it's a performance thing)
11:54 gaal s/operation/&al correctness/
11:54 agentzh audreyt: will you do me a favor by fixing the parsefail in t/statements/do.t?
11:55 audreyt agentzh: the "do {...}\nis" thing?
11:55 audreyt I thought I fixed it
11:55 agentzh no, that fix doesn't work.
11:55 agentzh ?eval my $i; do { $i++; next; $i-- } $i;
11:58 agentzh evalbot?
11:58 audreyt ok
11:58 audreyt evlbot is restarting
11:58 agentzh heh
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11:58 agentzh audreyt: *** cannot next() outside a loop
11:59 agentzh but do {} is truly a loop.
11:59 pmurias audreyt: how large a (sub|super)set of haskell doe yhc support?
12:00 audreyt pretty good superset of haskell 98
12:00 audreyt pugs however is very much GHC specific
12:00 audreyt a GHC backend to parrot is somewhat harder than yhc though
12:00 audreyt as it relies on the (very advanced) GHC runtime
12:00 audreyt primitives
12:01 audreyt unless you link in GHC's rts with parrot
12:01 audreyt in which case it becomes more embedding than targetting
12:02 audreyt I'd suggest starting with the yhc bytecode set if you'd like to play with targetting hs, than starting with GHC Core or yhc's lambda cube
12:02 audreyt s:2nd/yhc/jhc/
12:03 audreyt jhc is optimized for generating fully unrolled  raw C code, and as such might be technically easier, though performance-wise horrible, to simply write a PIR codegen
12:03 audreyt for it
12:03 pmurias i plan to spend about a week full time on it. so i won't propably get past the yhc bytecode stahe
12:04 pmurias *stage
12:04 audreyt oh. then yu may consider hugs, which is even smaller :)
12:04 audreyt but yhc is better designed, I think. not sure
12:05 pmurias i'll try to adapt the .net2parrot converter,
12:06 pmurias i supports delcarative opcode mapping
12:07 pmurias so the real coding will be the bytecode format reading
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12:09 audreyt ok... you need a strategy for lazy evaluation.
12:09 audreyt either via thunk PMC, or CPS, or something.
12:10 svnbot6 r12304 | cmarcelo++ | * Spaces to tabs in last agentzh commit.
12:10 agentzh cmarcelo: :P
12:11 agentzh win32's nmake is smart enough to recognize multiple spaces as a tab, so i didn't notice it while testing on my machine.
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12:29 cmarcelo agentzh: np.. i wonder why gnu make doesn't do that too =P
12:29 agentzh hehe
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12:41 audreyt whew. finally done
12:41 audreyt I might have broken everything ;)
12:41 * audreyt runs "make pugs" for performance benchmark and smoke
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12:48 svnbot6 r12305 | agentz++ | [t]
12:48 svnbot6 r12305 | agentz++ | * fixed all the malformed magic links in t/*/*.t and t/*/*/*.t
12:48 svnbot6 r12305 | agentz++ | ** the new L<Sxx/.../key word list> syntax is highly  recommended.
12:48 svnbot6 r12305 | agentz++ | ** the L<Sxx/"..." /.../> notation is still acceptable, but a trailing ';' is not allowed.
12:52 * agentzh is amazed to see there're already 242 magic links under t/.
12:58 cmarcelo audreyt: is it meaningful comparing benchs of today's pugs and pre-r12204 (judy integration)? I heard about changes evening out judy time advantages, what rev this happened, before or after 12204?
12:59 audreyt that was luqui's, and only at closure cloning
12:59 audreyt I'm going out for a walk :) bbiab
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13:02 agentzh g'night &
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13:19 pmurias fglock: hi
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13:26 fglock pmurias: hi
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13:57 svnbot6 r12306 | fglock++ | v6 - array methods: kv, keys, values, ref, isa; fixed '%hash.isa'
14:00 clkao mmmm
14:01 fglock clkao: mmmm?
14:01 clkao seems good progress ;)
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14:10 svnbot6 r12307 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed 'loop {block}'
14:10 svnbot6 r12308 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed extra '}' in loop
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14:43 svnbot6 r12309 | fglock++ | v6 - t/data_types/hash.t passes 40/52
14:51 svnbot6 r12310 | fglock++ | v6 -  t/data_types/hash.t passes 48/52
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14:54 sdogi whoa
14:54 sdogi i just saw truth
14:54 sdogi http://www.treehugger.com/files/th_images/paradigm.jpg
14:54 sdogi hehe
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15:06 svnbot6 r12311 | audreyt++ | * all IRC-related programs in examples were using "\001", and so
15:06 svnbot6 r12311 | audreyt++ |   were all broken by TimToady++'s decree.  Changed them to \x01.
15:09 svnbot6 r12312 | audreyt++ | * Fix "make ghci" to work after cmarcelo++'s judy fixes.
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15:20 avar what decree is that? no octal escapes?
15:20 kanru joined perl6
15:21 [particle] avar: yes, see recent changes to S02 concerning \d+
15:21 [particle] er, \\\d+
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15:36 svnbot6 r12313 | audreyt++ | * "make profiled" now generates two executables: "pugs" is optimized,
15:36 svnbot6 r12313 | audreyt++ |   and "pugs-prof" is optimized _and_ profiled.
15:39 xerox Nice.
15:39 xerox pugs has all it all!
15:42 audreyt microbenchmark showed another 30% improvement
15:43 audreyt mandel.pl for the first 4 lines. before:
15:43 audreyt real    0m4.419s
15:43 audreyt with my local changes on Var:
15:43 audreyt real    0m2.514s
15:43 audreyt smoking now to make sure I didn't break anything...
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15:44 PerlJam Next thing you know, we'll be using pugs as perl6  ;)
15:45 audreyt that needs linspire's help :)
15:45 audreyt (they have Parsec for fast ByteString)
15:45 audreyt which will solve the one remaining bottleneck
15:45 audreyt namely parsing large programs
15:47 PerlJam And then parrot dies because it's raison d'etre has vanished   ;>
15:47 audreyt nah. we don't interop with tcl :)
15:47 audreyt and also, yaml as platform-native bytecode is, whilst an okay solution, not as cool as true bytecodes
15:48 audreyt I'm glad people are working on parrot. (also mono; spidermonkey; llvm; yarv; etc.)
15:49 * PerlJam too
15:50 audreyt and also, of course, the VM that rgs++ just released a version for :)
15:51 xerox Yay for Linspire indeed.
15:51 xerox But.. are they going to release it opensource?
15:51 audreyt xerox: stepcut havn't replied...maybe help me nudge him again when he shows up?
15:51 xerox Okay!
15:52 audreyt it's originally part of sjanssen's SoC, but all will be easier if sj can just merge Linspire's code
15:52 xerox Parsec is _so_ handy.
15:52 audreyt and properly doc/cabalize it
15:52 xerox Indeed.
15:53 * audreyt finds Judy+ByteString a very memory-efficient combination for all sort of tasks
15:53 audreyt <- going to update $job code to use them this weekend
15:53 xerox One-line description of Judy ?
15:53 xerox I read you use that in place of some Data.Things
15:53 audreyt self-tuning, extremely fast implementation of mutable IntMap, StrMap, Hash, Set.
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15:53 audreyt what you use IORef(InsertSomeStructureHere) for, you can use Judy and get huge win.
15:53 xerox Haskell Judy is FFI calls?
15:54 audreyt yes.
15:54 xerox I see.
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15:54 xerox It's still good on the other hand to have all-Haskell implementations of datastructures.
15:54 audreyt sure. but pugs cares very little about haskell purity :)
15:54 audreyt (see pcre, syck, etc)
15:54 xerox :(
15:54 xerox :D
15:55 xerox We need more people in researching compilers :D
15:55 audreyt as I said in the mentor statement for cmarcelo's SoC... the important contribuiton is a working CollectionM interface
15:55 audreyt then other, pure-hs implementation can show up and just implement it
15:55 xerox CollectionM ?
15:56 audreyt I very much like how I can change from Hash to StrMap to maybe HashTable with just two lines
15:56 audreyt (one in import and one in type synonym)
15:56 xerox That's interesting.
15:56 audreyt xerox: see pugs/third-party/HsJudy/Judy/CollectionsM.hs
15:57 audreyt the idea is similar to Data.Foldable and Data.Traversable etc
15:57 xerox OK, I am getting cabal-get to work now (eventually!) so I wll do later, thanks for the pointer
15:57 audreyt in GHC-trunk
15:57 audreyt yay!
15:57 xerox Right I knew those
15:57 audreyt xerox++
15:57 * xerox hugs audreyt
15:57 * audreyt beams
15:57 xerox I had some school issues, grumble
15:57 xerox real-life deadlines caught me up
15:57 xerox I don't want to get beaten by the Google deadline too, though
15:58 audreyt indeed
15:58 audreyt oh. cabal-get is your SoC?
15:58 * xerox nods
15:58 * xerox felt left a bit alone, but well, maybe dcoutts craddled him up too much last year
15:59 * gaal meows
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15:59 gaal ooh! wow, speedups
16:02 gaal too bad somebody didn't spend a SoC cleaning up the Compression library
16:02 xerox What does it give?
16:03 xerox (I will need gzip and tar somewhen in the future)
16:03 gaal xerox: lz, 7zip, uh, lots of others
16:03 gaal but it doesn't have a build system, and was developed on windows...
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16:05 gaal argh, when I was looking for it I noticed http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Library/Compression didn't have a link to the actual library, and sadly I didn't add it to the wiki when I found it, so now again I don't know where it is...
16:05 lambdabot Title: Library/Compression - HaskellWiki
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16:13 cmarcelo audreyt: since you mention SoC.. deadline is 21 (or 20?), any suggestion on how I spent this last few days (I see you liked CollectionsM)?
16:13 cmarcelo and yes, I (irresponsably) spent the last days focused on Pugs Build Process =o)...
16:14 audreyt cmarcelo: document what you've done, and pointers for the next steps :)
16:14 audreyt and blog mercilessly :)
16:16 * cmarcelo not good at blogging =P will try, though...
16:16 * xerox is very happy to see soc working for somebody
16:16 xerox Very very....
16:16 cmarcelo besides what you see in svnbot6 I'm talking to Ketil Malde (RBR devel) to see if Judy works nice (looks like the answer is yes, but he needs to see it there too)...
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16:17 svnbot6 r12314 | fglock++ | v6 - t/data_types/hash.t passes 51/52
16:18 cmarcelo i'm a little afraid of final review (is it google or you that'll do this?), since strictly I'm delivering something a little bit different -- and a little more specific too.
16:19 xerox No need to be afraid, it's audrey that will review! :D
16:20 audreyt yup.
16:20 cmarcelo xerox: i hope so! =)
16:21 audreyt and I think you did well. :) it's not required that CollectionsM or anything like that be finalized by you
16:21 audreyt merely that a continuing dialog/adoption with existing community is in active progress
16:22 audreyt which I think is happening :)
16:22 xerox Do you know offhand if there is a cabal function FilePath -> CabalRepresentation ?
16:23 gaal hm. i have an svk pull that's hung on a poll() syscall for a while now. is it ok to kill -9? (won't respond to SIGINT)
16:23 amnesiac joined perl6
16:23 audreyt no... I'm not even sure what's CabalRepresentation
16:23 audreyt gaal: sure
16:24 xerox I mean whatever representation cabal does of the .cabal files
16:24 cmarcelo looks like will be really embraced by people.. however, #perl6 folks suffered this two last (i hope only this two) seeing things like "error .... -lJudy", "error ... HsJudy".
16:24 xerox ... -> PkgInfo is my last aim.
16:24 xerox (I.e. what's inside 00-latest.txt)
16:24 gaal now I get repeated "Waiting for sync lock on /trunk: colinux:13763."
16:26 gaal I don't know what 13763 is, it's not an r nor a PID...
16:27 audreyt svk mi --unlock /pugs/trunk
16:28 cmarcelo audreyt: I'm not doing it now, but from what I tried, tracking the Judy.Hash problem won't be easy. Putting putStrLn's in Internals.hs to track seems to make the segfaults disapper here. Unless another idea pops up I'm thinking of filling Judy.Hash functions with putStrLn's and tracking every call to C Judy funks.
16:29 cmarcelo audreyt: do you know if spinclad is alive? and/or about integrating HsIter on judy-trunk?
16:29 gaal audreyt: thanks.
16:30 Psyche^ joined perl6
16:32 PolettiX has there been some issue with "say" lately?
16:36 audreyt PolettiX: "say" no longer prints $_; use ".say" for that
16:36 PolettiX audreyt: this marks the definitive decline of $_
16:36 PolettiX but this is probably saner
16:38 audreyt not sure about decline
16:38 audreyt it's consistent :)
16:39 audreyt compare .moose with $_->moose :)
16:39 audreyt 'dsay it's a win
16:39 * [particle] *groans*
16:42 svnbot6 r12315 | fglock++ | v6 - t/data_types/hash.t passes 53/55
16:44 SageLT joined perl6
16:45 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
16:49 prefiks joined perl6
16:50 TreyHarris not to mention, $.moose and $_.moose are too hard to confuse
16:54 svnbot6 r12316 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed t/regex.t (passes 90 tests more)
17:07 xdg joined perl6
17:09 bernhard joined perl6
17:13 xinming joined perl6
17:21 audreyt ok, all sanity tests pass. no time to run smoke. so I'll just check in :)
17:21 TimToady I'll smoke it.
17:22 audreyt the diff file is 5000+ lines long
17:22 audreyt with 2500 lines of raw changes
17:22 TimToady er, I'll smoke it if it compiles....  :)
17:22 audreyt that it will do :)
17:23 gaal whoo
17:24 gaal check it svnbot6!
17:24 mdiep joined perl6
17:28 elmex joined perl6
17:28 audreyt the mergeback is takign a while :)
17:29 TimToady I gather.  been supping every few seconds... :)
17:29 audreyt it's in.
17:30 TimToady smokin'
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ | * Glorious refactoring of the Var type.
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |   Previously, Var is type synonym to String, and all package
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |   lookups, OUTER:: handling, sigil and twigil parsing etc were
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |   done in an extremely adhoc way with String operations.
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |   Now we split Var into several parts.
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |   Take "&Moose::Elk::infix:<antler>" as an example:
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |     v_sigil   :: VarSigil   -- SScalar
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |     v_twigil  :: VarTwigil  -- TNone
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |     v_package :: Pkg        -- ["Moose", "Elk"]
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |     v_categ   :: VarCateg   -- C_infix
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |     v_name    :: ID         -- "antler"
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |   The names are stored as interned ByteStrings for fast comparison.
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |   All involved types are changed from String to new types as well,
17:30 svnbot6 r12317 | audreyt++ |   such as (envPackage :: Pkg).
17:30 TimToady does not seem to like parrot embedded
17:30 audreyt nopaste the error?
17:31 audreyt probably forgot to change type signature for the embed half
17:31 TimToady Can't exec "./bin/parrot": No such file or directory at Makefile.PL line 806.
17:31 TimToady need more?
17:31 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "no likey 6.4.2 either" (5 lines, 269B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19050
17:32 gaal --  {-# SPECIALISE INLINE cast :: ID -> ID #-} etc.
17:32 audreyt TimToady: no... it's Makefile.PL, related to r12317
17:33 audreyt gaal: bummer. see if you can drop the INLINE?
17:33 audreyt and commit in
17:33 svnbot6 r12318 | polettix++ | [examples/colordiff.pl] Adapted to new .say idiom. Got rid of quotemeta implementation.
17:33 audreyt they are small enough, autoinlining should happen
17:33 gaal weird, the commit log for ghc says that feature was added 9 mo ago
17:33 audreyt so just SPECIALISE
17:33 audreyt probably not merged to trunk
17:33 audreyt I mean to -stable
17:33 pasteling "TimToady" at 71.139.7.205 pasted "got embparrot?" (73 lines, 4.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19051
17:34 gaal should we #if-version it?
17:34 audreyt gaal: no, just drop INLINE
17:34 audreyt if SPECIALIZE works, that's good enough
17:34 gaal chasing...
17:35 audreyt TimToady: did you have a build parrot executable in parrot path?
17:35 audreyt trap line 795 Makefile.PL for $base for more details
17:36 gaal audreyt: Set.notMember is undef in here
17:36 gaal fixing...
17:36 audreyt ok. change back to (not ())
17:37 * audreyt hopes gaal is "make fast"ing
17:37 gaal I'm a good seaman
17:37 audreyt :D
17:38 TimToady my parrot build directory was hosed, but /usr/local/bin/parrot seems to work.  good thing I installed it.  :)
17:38 svnbot6 r12319 | fglock++ | v6, PCR - defined $?PUGS_BACKEND and @*INC
17:38 svnbot6 r12319 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed 'unboxed' array methods
17:38 audreyt heh cool :)
17:40 TimToady on the other hand, maybe that means I'm not running embedded.
17:40 TimToady trouble is they just checked in massive STM changes to parrot
17:40 [particle] timtoady: what platform are you on?
17:40 TimToady fedora core 5
17:41 TimToady intel
17:41 TimToady trying a rebuild of parrot from scratch to see if build remains busted.
17:41 [particle] fresh checkout?
17:42 TimToady maybe need to do the hand uninstall trick...
17:42 [particle] ah, installed parrot is still a no-no, iirc
17:42 * [particle] hasn't installed since 0.0.11
17:42 TimToady got the src/Pugs/Internals.hs:164:19: parse error on input `INLINE'
17:42 gaal TimToady: fixing
17:43 [particle] woggle expects gcc/x86 to work if pthreads is good enough
17:43 [particle] (post stm merge)
17:43 audreyt this year's perl.org SoC success rate is remarkably different from last year's :)
17:44 [particle] ...happily so :)
17:46 TimToady attempting to rebuild parrot again after hand uninstall, but if this doesn't work I'll have to revert parrot to smoke pugs
17:47 TimToady particle: I don't mind hand-unstalling parrot occasionally.
17:48 TimToady but that seems not to be the problem.
17:48 TimToady compilers/imcc/main.o: In function `main':
17:48 TimToady compilers/imcc/main.c:510: undefined reference to `Parrot_shared_DOD_block'
17:48 TimToady compilers/imcc/main.c:709: undefined reference to `Parrot_shared_DOD_unblock'
17:49 TimToady next step is to blow away everything and recheckout
17:49 audreyt gaal: how's it going? I may need to sleep soon
17:49 gaal lots of -fallow-overlapping-instances needed to be added and some more last fixes
17:49 gaal ETA ~5m
17:49 audreyt 'k
17:49 audreyt yay
17:50 audreyt yeah. GHC 6.4 sitll has user-site overlapping
17:50 Aankh|Clone joined perl6
17:53 svnbot6 r12320 | fglock++ | v6 - ChangeLog
17:54 Limbic_Region audreyt - did the new internals get implemented?
17:54 audreyt Limbic_Region: stepwise, but in steady progress
17:54 TimToady same error.  parrot build definitely borken on FC5
17:54 Limbic_Region cool beaners - moldy chicken
17:54 audreyt Limbic_Region: compile time "does" finally does mixing instead of inheritance, and pad lookup is now sane. lots of other cleanups
17:54 svnbot6 r12321 | audreyt++ | * Profiling shows that there were three "ask" per runloop call,
17:54 svnbot6 r12321 | audreyt++ |   but only one is needed.  This alone eliminated another 5% of
17:54 svnbot6 r12321 | audreyt++ |   runtime.
17:54 audreyt also, much faster overall, except for parsing. :)
17:55 zgh joined perl6
17:55 gaal almost there...
17:55 Limbic_Region I have been $working all day and just noticed all the src/ file checkins
17:56 svnbot6 r12322 | fglock++ | v6 - $?PUGS_BACKEND moved to Runtime::Perl6
17:56 audreyt yay. all 5%+ hot stops in profiling gone
17:57 Limbic_Region so where is the new bottleneck?
17:57 Limbic_Region ;-)
17:57 gaal It's bottles all the way down
17:58 xinming_ joined perl6
17:58 gaal audreyt: src/Pugs/Run/Perl5.hs: Couldn't match `Var' against `VStr'
17:58 gaal did you forget that part of the port? :)
17:58 audreyt which line?
17:59 gaal 75
17:59 gaal In the first argument of `Var', namely `name'
17:59 audreyt fixed.
17:59 audreyt Var is now _Var and Sym is now _Sym
17:59 audreyt (the string-taking form)
17:59 audreyt but indeed if you see that, that might be the last change :)
17:59 leo TimToady: looks like you have old parrot includes around: please  'locate dod.h'
17:59 svnbot6 r12323 | audreyt++ | * Change Var to _Var in Perl5.hs
17:59 weinig|zzz is now known as weinig_
18:01 gaal nyeh
18:01 TimToady leo: nothing that wasn't under my parrot build dir
18:02 gaal skipping all 64-odd files takes like 15 seconds
18:02 audreyt "make ghci" and :r is your friend
18:02 TimToady I blow away /usr/local/include/parrot when I hand-uninstall.
18:02 leo strange - as Parrot_block_DOD() is a macro, calling Parrot_shared_DOD_block()
18:02 gaal audreyt: yes, but not in this case...
18:03 TimToady anyway, for now, reverted back 10 revs or so just so I can smoke audreyt. :)
18:03 audreyt why not? you can :r as long as Eval.Var passes
18:03 leo TimToady: in parrot root:  find . -name '*.[ch]' | xargs grep Parrot_shared_DOD_unblock
18:04 gaal alternating ghci and fast is painful, isn't it?
18:04 TimToady all I have is a completely fresh checkout at this point.
18:04 gaal committing
18:04 audreyt ooh
18:04 audreyt gaal: no, completely separated now
18:04 leo it's defined in thread.c and a macro in dod.h
18:04 audreyt non-interfering
18:04 gaal cool!
18:04 gaal what did it take?
18:04 gaal cabal?
18:04 audreyt "fast" uses cabal's dist/build/
18:04 gaal in.
18:05 audreyt and ghci uses inplace src/
18:05 audreyt for object files
18:05 leo TimToady: I can just imagine that the locate db isn't up to date - you might use find
18:05 bpphillip1 joined perl6
18:05 gaal okay, I'm scrubbing the decks and lighting up the galley
18:05 TimToady is a possibility.
18:05 svnbot6 r12324 | gaal++ | * Bring the glory to 6.4.2
18:06 audreyt confirmed as still building fine on GHC 6.5-trunk
18:06 audreyt good. I can finally sleep :)
18:06 gaal night audrey!
18:06 audreyt g'nite!
18:06 audreyt *wave* &
18:08 integral audreyt++
18:08 integral gaal++ # making it work ;-)
18:11 rlb3 joined perl6
18:12 TimToady no dod.h on my system other than under parrot.
18:13 Samhain is now known as yuval
18:17 leo TimToady: what sayeth: gcc -E -Iinclude compilers/imcc/main.c | grep Parrot_shared_DOD_block
18:17 svnbot6 r12325 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed 'require'
18:18 weinig_ is now known as weinig
18:19 TimToady leo: says nothing.
18:19 leo I really don't understand that
18:20 leo even with fresh co?
18:20 TimToady but I'm currently at 14130, so if there was anything under there at the later revision, it's probably gone.
18:20 leo oh - that's 11 revs behind
18:21 leo maybe inmidst of merge
18:21 TimToady yes, but r14130 compiles.  :)
18:21 leo as does 14141 ;)
18:22 TimToady not here, apparently...
18:22 TimToady it's definitely a head-scratcher...
18:22 TimToady I'll whack on it some more later after I've smoked audreyt's latest.
18:23 leo ok
18:23 TimToady thanks.
18:28 gaal what's the minimum r of parrot currently required by pugs?
18:33 TimToady dunno offhand, but would likely be the interface change to Parrot_exit
18:35 hexmode joined perl6
18:39 TimToady looks like the "return if" and "return unless" lines are not compiling here for some reason.
18:40 TimToady working around it by putting return() if
18:42 bernhard joined perl6
18:42 TimToady actually, too much other stuff broken.  trying fresh checkout.
18:45 svnbot6 r12326 | fglock++ | v6 - avoid using 'do {block}'
18:47 cm joined perl6
18:49 TimToady actually, was probably an old /usr/bin/pugs
18:49 Aankhen`` joined perl6
18:57 gaal whoa, billions and billions of parsefails
19:00 svnbot6 r12327 | gaal++ | * TimToady++ reports that "return if" and "return unless" are broken,
19:00 svnbot6 r12327 | gaal++ |   so work around in Prelude.pm and Test.pm so smokes can get going.
19:01 TimToady the smokes are full of parsefails as well if you just do that.
19:01 gaal yes, it's pretty messed up
19:02 TreyHarris whooh-hooh.  a coworker got me a ghc 6.4.2 binary build for tiger-ppc that works.  *phew*  mathewm++ mathewm++ mathewm++
19:02 TimToady I'd suggest *not* checking out the latest pugs.  :/
19:03 gaal changes topic to: stay with r12316 or b0rk | SVK users: http://search.cpan.org/dist/SVN-Mirror/ | paste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | http://www.treehugger.com/files/th_images/paradigm.jpg
19:03 TimToady fresh checkout fails the same way.
19:04 * kolibrie subdues his urge to svk pull
19:04 Limbic_Region is current pugs known to be b0rk on Win32?
19:04 TreyHarris i'm building r12292 from last night
19:04 kolibrie TreyHarris: you are probably safe
19:04 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
19:04 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
19:05 gaal Limbic_Region: yes.
19:05 gaal it's not the build, it's the built.
19:05 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "build failure for Win32, MinGW, GHC 6.4.2" (20 lines, 1.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19054
19:05 TimToady it's definitely bork on FC5 currently.
19:06 TimToady 6.4.1, I believe.
19:06 Limbic_Region just in case that info is different from what is known to be b0rk
19:06 TimToady yeah, ghc-6.4.1
19:07 TimToady yes, that's different.
19:07 gaal Limbic_Region: fixing
19:08 gaal committed.
19:08 Limbic_Region k
19:08 svnbot6 r12328 | gaal++ | * fix build for hs-plugins users
19:08 * Limbic_Region isn't an hs-plugin user btw
19:10 SageLT Quick Perl 6 Question: pugs currently requires variables to be declared before use (as far as I can tell), but I don't see anythig about this in the synopses (which doesn't mean I couldn't have missed it). Is this just a pugs trait, or does perl 6 require variable declerations?
19:10 TimToady strict is on by default.
19:10 PerlJam SageLT: perl6 requires that the be declared except on one liners
19:10 TimToady and pugs doesn't implement 'no strict' yet.
19:10 SageLT Okay, good to know
19:10 SageLT And I should have figured that out. I knew strict was on, don't know why that didn't click
19:11 TimToady how's it goin'?
19:12 gaal r12328 ~~ s/hs-plugin/TH/
19:14 Limbic_Region gaal - it looks like that may fix all my problems
19:14 Limbic_Region generating precompiled prelude now
19:14 gaal Limbic_Region: you mean except that pugs is broken?
19:16 Limbic_Region gaal - I don't actually use pugs much these days
19:16 Limbic_Region I just verify it compiles
19:16 svnbot6 r12329 | Sage++ | A new example of a translated TestInit.pm. Pugs doesn't like: Use of TAINT and non-declared variables. With manually added declarations and removal of TAINT reference, pugs runs it.
19:16 TreyHarris my build's failing in trying to embed parrot.  probably because my parrot's quite old (0.4.2).
19:16 Limbic_Region I have some unfinished projects that I might eventually get back to which is why I try to keep it up to date, plus I read summaries, journals, lists, and the channel to keep up to date on stuff
19:17 TreyHarris what will i lose by just not embedding it?
19:17 TreyHarris i'm mostly just using pugs to interpret perl 6 code, and doing some v6.pm testing
19:17 svnbot6 r12330 | Sage++ | Accidentally committed a version with the manual changes, as opposed to the actual translator output, my mistake.
19:17 SageLT TimToady: Far slower then I'd like, and I'm trying to tackle the varibale decleration issue, which is going to be a pain to do  in any way besides 'no strict'
19:18 Limbic_Region wow - audreyt was right about it being a lot faster
19:18 svnbot6 r12331 | Sage++ | Fixed a very serious and very stupid mistake that always turned off translation.
19:18 Limbic_Region pugs -v returns immediately
19:19 TimToady looks to me like pugs is not seeing its own prototypes for builtins like kv.
19:19 Limbic_Region gaal - what can I do to verify pugs doesn't work - the few examples I have tested produce the correct results?
19:19 TimToady or finding the methods, or something
19:19 gaal Limbic_Region: make smoke and interrupt after a while.
19:19 TimToady actually, probably methods, since it's not finding "new" either.
19:20 Limbic_Region as in ctrl-c ?
19:20 gaal yeah
19:20 Limbic_Region and what constitutes "a while"
19:20 gaal until you believe me :)
19:20 Limbic_Region ah, ok
19:20 saorge_ joined perl6
19:21 TimToady also a lot of:
19:21 TimToady pugs: Internal error: Sigilless var: "linux"
19:21 gaal TimToady: I don't actually know where that's coming from
19:21 gaal the tests where it occurs in don't mention "linux" anywhere
19:21 gaal may be somewhere in the prelude or in test.pm
19:21 TimToady well, it says "internal"
19:21 mdiep left perl6
19:22 TimToady so maybe it's one of those faked up variables that pugs uses internally.
19:22 gaal that's just the error message in src/Pugs/Types.hs:338
19:22 TimToady had some similar problems when I tried to change $?SELF to self
19:22 TimToady ended up calling it &self internally.
19:23 gaal I wish I remembered what audreyt told me about getting GHC to surrender a stacktrace
19:23 gaal someithing about make profiled.
19:24 gaal ugh, which doesn't work here?
19:24 TimToady now I've got a pugs that looping trying to run ext/Test-Builder/t/020_Test_Builder_Test.t
19:25 Limbic_Region gaal - did she tell you in IRC?
19:25 Limbic_Region irc logs are searchable
19:27 Limbic_Region gaal - then just light a match under her
19:27 TimToady gonna be a bloody TAP matrix...
19:27 gaal anyway it's moose until I figure out what's wrong with the profiled target.
19:28 Limbic_Region gaal - I had to do make test instead of make smoke as I haven't set up for smoke properly
19:28 jferrero joined perl6
19:28 Limbic_Region lots of tests passing
19:28 Limbic_Region seemingly more than are failing
19:29 gaal Limbic_Region: is 'cpan Task::Smoke' not working for you?
19:29 Limbic_Region gaal - not that it isn't working, that there isn't much point
19:29 Limbic_Region I wouldn't be able to get a report "off" this box though I guess I could email the outputted html file
19:29 TimToady I think the basic tests are cleaner, but smoke does ext first.
19:30 Limbic_Region ok - failing far more than I would expect otherwise
19:30 TimToady and that exercises OO more.
19:30 TimToady no .kv, no .keys, etcs.
19:30 TimToady no .new
19:30 gaal hmm, we need an email gw to the smokeserver!
19:31 Limbic_Region gaal - even that would be manual for me without taking some pretty unique steps
19:31 TimToady biab &
19:31 Limbic_Region would need to hook into Outlook
19:33 * Limbic_Region wanders off
19:34 pmurias is the an ctags equivalent for haskell?
19:34 pmurias * a
19:34 * lichtkind listen to brilliant talk about  how a little bi given structure opens up much more possibilities and freedom, and believes now even more in perl6 :)
19:34 gaal @google gaal ctags haskell
19:34 lambdabot http://www.livejournal.com/users/gaal/161104.html
19:35 lichtkind s/bi/bit/
19:37 pmurias gaal++ # providing tools to dive into large bolilerplated haskell compilers...
19:37 gaal pmurias: or if on linux/x86 fetch a binary from feather:~gaal/bin
19:38 pmurias i'll probably hand compile (i have gentoo so the toolchain *should* be in working order) :)
19:38 gaal oh, gentoo has that patch
19:38 gaal rather an updated version of it
19:39 gaal so your ctags may already Just Work <tm>
19:39 pmurias gaal: are you also a gentoo user?
19:39 gaal no, someone wrote a patch
19:39 gaal I didn't even know about it up to last week
19:40 pmurias which distro do you use?
19:41 gaal anyone remember the cabal switch to Setup configure to turn on profiling?
19:41 gaal pmurias: debian
19:41 pmurias nice one
19:41 gaal worksforme
19:41 pmurias gentoo compilesforme :)
19:43 gaal pmurias: I find it hot enough where I live that I don't feel compelled to have my CPU compile stuff all the time :)
19:43 yuval gaal: *cough*
19:44 gaal hey yuval :)
19:44 yuval hey :)
19:44 yuval i'm addicted to air conditioning (go figure) so where i live/work, Gentoo keeps me from freezing :)
19:44 nothingmuch ah! damn highlights
19:45 pmurias nothinmuch: does ccache cache headers?
19:45 gaal yeah, like a guy I knew who's dad worked in the electrical company, when he was cold he opened the window instead of tuning the AC
19:45 gaal pmurias: I doubt it
19:45 gaal pmurias: but GCC 4 has precompiled headers, I think
19:46 gaal 3.x dev versions did
19:46 pmurias it has but...
19:46 pmurias it can only use one at a time
19:46 yuval btw, i can't compile pugs 6.2.12 w/ parrot 0.4.6: http://sial.org/pbot/18896
19:46 lambdabot Title: Paste #18896 from "yuval" at 217.132.6.238
19:47 nothingmuch pmurias: no idea
19:47 yuval and that's what's holding me from committing the ebuild for parrot 0.4.6
19:47 nothingmuch i doubt it though
19:47 nothingmuch i think it's not practical
19:48 pmurias why>
19:48 pmurias ?
19:48 gaal yuval: what r is 0.4.6?
19:48 nothingmuch pmurias: because you can alter the definition of a header by including other headers, and because it has no emitted output
19:48 gaal pmurias: headers are not compilation units
19:49 gaal precomp headers are sort of a hack in this regard
19:49 TimToady well, not as bad as I thought--only failed 885
19:49 gaal TimToady: including ext/?
19:49 TimToady yes
19:49 gaal how long did it take?
19:50 gaal and do you remember how long pre-12317 took?
19:50 gaal (there's a 'duration' field in the yaml file)
19:51 TimToady I'm the last two entries under repository snapshot / linux
19:51 TimToady it was 2.5 minutes slower this time.
19:52 TimToady but then I had to kill a pugs looping with 5 minutes runtime.
19:52 gaal hmh
19:52 mdiep joined perl6
19:52 TimToady so probably overall faster.
19:53 TimToady hard to account for the error shortcircuits though.
19:53 gaal by 2.5 min :)
19:53 yuval gaal: 13949 iirc
19:53 gaal ah yes.
19:53 SageLT This may be a stupid question, but Perl 5 will run "print ${^TAINT};" but pugs fails on "print %{^TAINT};", is this expected?
19:53 TimToady 10% basically
19:53 shachaf joined perl6
19:53 TimToady there is no such notation
19:53 gaal yuval: fwiw, I use 13767 and it's OK...
19:54 TimToady it'd be $?TAINT or $*TAINT using twigils now.
19:54 SageLT how so?
19:54 SageLT oh
19:54 SageLT Hmmmm...
19:54 SageLT Well, back to figuring some way to translate that
19:54 TimToady all ${...} notations are now dead.
19:55 TimToady $(...) is hard deref
19:55 SageLT thanks, I hadn't caught that
19:55 TimToady $::(...) is sym deref
19:55 TimToady and ${^foo} is just gone.
19:55 gaal I kept saying it should be $:you:don't:really:want:this:() in homage to MJD but they wouldn't listen
19:56 gaal ${^Gee} was kinda sick.
19:57 SageLT Thanks TimToady, sometimes it's hard to keep all the new stuff in my head at once. nice to get some help now and then
19:57 TimToady no, it was just sick.
19:57 gaal especially when the ^G was a BEL character.
19:57 TimToady ask any time.  get answers part of the time.  :)
19:57 stevan gaal: what is the Haskell function called that does the Y combinator stuff,.. fix?
19:58 gaal stevan: f y = y (f y)
19:58 frankg joined perl6
19:58 stevan gaal: yes that
19:59 stevan just f?
19:59 gaal but I think that Control.Monad.Fix.fix gives that too
19:59 stevan gaal: ok, cool
19:59 gaal er sorry stevan, I meant y f = y (f y)
20:00 gaal arght
20:00 gaal of course I can't get that right
20:00 gaal y f = f (y f)
20:03 pmurias are the audio recordings from the last yapc avalible? (taking a 16+ bus ride tommorow)
20:05 TreyHarris Should this work?  (can't test it, as pugs does not presently restore hypotheticals): my $highest_odd = 1; for 1..10
20:05 TreyHarris oops
20:05 foo\ joined perl6
20:05 gaal pmurias: I think not yet
20:05 TreyHarris Should this work?  (can't test it, as pugs does not presently restore hypotheticals): my $highest_odd = 1; for 1..10 -> $i { let $highest_odd = $i; $i % 2 }
20:09 Limbic_Region TreyHarris - first thing that looks odd to me is $i % 2
20:09 Limbic_Region % is still the modulus operator right?  It has no affect in void context right
20:10 TreyHarris Limbic_Region: eh?  why?  doesn't matter, then... s:w/$i % 2/$i.is_odd/
20:10 TreyHarris i was just wondering if the hypothetical would work correctly in this case, setting $highest_odd to 9
20:10 Limbic_Region did you mean something like my $h_odd = 1; for 1..10 -> $i { $h_odd = $i if $i %2 }
20:10 Limbic_Region the semi-colon is entend the expression
20:11 Limbic_Region hrmm - I appear to be experiencing extreme lag
20:11 TreyHarris Limbic_Region: well, yes, but you can rewrite any hypothetical that way.  I'm wondering about the behavior of hypothetical variables.
20:11 Limbic_Region in your example - $highest_odd = $i; # ends right here $i % 2 is seen as a new expression - you have no conditional
20:12 TreyHarris yes, i know
20:12 Limbic_Region ok - so then I don't know how to answer your question - I was just pointing out technical problems with your proposed example
20:12 * Limbic_Region hypothetically knows nada about hypotheticals
20:13 TreyHarris i don't see the technical problem.  the hypothetical will be restored if the containing block fails, and will be maintained if it succeeds.  that's why i ended the for block with an expression that has a truth value.
20:13 TreyHarris since one cannot return out of a for block
20:14 kolibrie TreyHarris: that logic makes sense to me
20:15 TreyHarris i don't see anything in S04 suggesting that next can take an argument other than a loop label, so I'm assuming this is the only way to set success or failure of a loop block
20:15 arta joined perl6
20:15 gaal yay, http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/TipsAndTricks - "for GHC compile with -prof -auto-all, then add +RTS -xc -RTS when running to get a "stack" trace when an exception is thrown."
20:15 lambdabot Title: TipsAndTricks - The Haskell Wiki
20:15 TreyHarris (though I kind of would like "fail" to work in this case as a 'next with non-success').  TimToady, any chance that could work?
20:15 gaal now just to wait out make profiled...
20:15 TimToady phone&
20:16 TreyHarris then i could write for 1..10 -> $i { let $h
20:16 TreyHarris grr, did it again
20:16 TreyHarris then i could write for 1..10 -> $i { let $h_odd = $i; fail unless $i.odd }.  that seems very clear to me
20:17 Limbic_Region TreyHarris - evil goto
20:17 * Limbic_Region ducks
20:18 PerlJam TreyHarris: what exactly are you trying to accomplish?
20:19 TreyHarris PerlJam: like merlyn, i'm coming from a trainer background, so not heading in any particular real-world-problem direction.  i'm just playing with behavior.  or are you asking specifically what i expect that code snippet to do?
20:19 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
20:21 PerlJam TreyHarris: the latter
20:23 TreyHarris oh.  let's take a list, and set $h_odd to the last item in the list that is odd.  so, hypothetically let's set $h_odd to each element in turn.  if it turns out it's not odd, we fail this iteration, causing the variable to be restored to its prior value.  if the block suceeds, we let it keep its new value.
20:23 TreyHarris of course there are easier ways to do this, but it seems like a very compact example of how a hypothetical could be used.  (the real criteria might be much more complicated)
20:23 PerlJam "fail this iteration" doesn't quite make sense to me.
20:24 TreyHarris well, failing a bare block doesn't quite make sense either, outside of hypotheticals existing, does it?
20:24 TreyHarris look at t/var/let.t
20:25 * PerlJam looks
20:25 TreyHarris but with hypotheticals, one might want any given block to fail
20:25 PerlJam PErhaps I'm just not quite up to speed on the semantics of fail
20:26 kolibrie so the question is really, what is the syntax to cause a block to fail, so that 'let' will revert any values it has tampered with
20:26 TreyHarris PerlJam: ah!  no, i think you are.  I was just suggesting to TimToady that one might like a keyword--perhaps not fail--to indicate "please cause this block to not succeed" so that hypotheticals can be reset without having to place a bare expression at the end of the block
20:26 PerlJam But calling fail in a loop doesn't "fail the iteration" AFAIK
20:27 TreyHarris kolibrie: exactly.  i think one would like a return-ish thing that doesn't cause an exception to be raised but can be used within blocks that are not allowed to return
20:27 kolibrie and still allows looping to continue
20:28 TreyHarris PerlJam: currently, it fails the entire loop
20:28 TreyHarris ?eval my $f; try { for 1..10 -> $i { $f = $i; fail if $i > 3 } }; say $f
20:28 evalbot_23533 is now known as evalbot_23570
20:28 evalbot_23570 OUTPUT[4 ] Bool::True
20:29 TreyHarris so the only way to make *this iteration* of the loop fail is to place a false value as the last statement in the block.
20:29 PerlJam my $x = 42;  for 1..10 -> $n { let $x = $n if $n.odd }   #  Since no control exception was thrown, the loop succeeded and $x has the value of 9
20:29 TreyHarris PerlJam: one doesn't need the let in that case.
20:30 PerlJam no, but I can't contrive an example that does right now (too much multitasking :)
20:30 PerlJam but my $x = 42;  for 1..10 -> $n { let $x = $n if $n.odd; fail }   # $x will have the value of 42 here
20:31 kolibrie my $x = 42;  for 1..10 -> $n { let $x = $n; $x.odd }
20:31 TreyHarris the point is, one would use let in a case where the conditions in which you want to restore the old value could be too baroque to express in a simple conditional.  so you're reduced to writing all your code inside a conditional so that you have only one loop exit point.  very unPerlishly Pascal-like :-)
20:31 TreyHarris kolibrie: yes
20:32 TimToady I believe that "leave *, undef" would (eventually) work, according to S06.
20:32 PerlJam kolibrie: I don't think that one works properly as no control exception is thrown.
20:32 TreyHarris kolibrie: but i'd like something more explicit, and something that would let me say "oh, this is going to work, let's just fail this iteration and go to the next one now"
20:32 kolibrie PerlJam: which is why we are waiting for TimToady to get off the phone and clarify the syntax
20:32 TimToady um
20:33 * PerlJam has no clue what "leave *, undef" is supposed to mean.
20:33 TimToady see S06?
20:33 PerlJam I'm looking at it now. (It's been a while since I last looked)
20:33 TreyHarris TimToady: that's very clear to me, thanks.  I'd like some sugar though...
20:34 TimToady it's not a common enough occurence for standard sugar, I don't think.
20:34 TimToady can always write a macro.
20:35 TimToady course, maybe the default of leave is undef
20:35 TimToady to go with return;
20:35 TimToady except that I think we currently require return undef; for that.
20:35 TimToady and return; is just a null list
20:36 TreyHarris right.  so then for @stuff -> $i { let $wanted = $i; ... leave if $undesirable; ... leave 1 }
20:37 TreyHarris that's not bad.
20:38 PerlJam As an aside, I thought the docs at http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn were updated more frequently now.  Is this not true?
20:38 lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
20:38 TimToady the first argument to leave is always a selector, so leave 1 is illegal.
20:39 penk joined perl6
20:39 PerlJam leave *, 1 then?
20:39 TimToady every six hours, supposedly.
20:39 TreyHarris PerlJam: synopsis 4 there was updated today, how much more frequently do you want? :-)
20:39 TimToady currently that's how leave is defined.
20:39 PerlJam When was S06 updated to say "leave *"?
20:39 TimToady I'm not sure the valence is quite right though.
20:40 TreyHarris ahhh.  yeah, that was the part that made me want sugar.  it looks like you're digging into perlguts.  i'm just thinking from the trainer perspective
20:40 TreyHarris maybe an optional adverb, and the default is *?
20:40 TimToady from a user perspective you just want "return value but from here instead of the sub".
20:40 TreyHarris yes, exactly.
20:40 kolibrie my $x = 42;  for 1..10 -> $n { let $x = $n; leave *, $x.odd }
20:40 TreyHarris leave isn't a bad word
20:40 TimToady PerlJam: a few days ago
20:41 PerlJam TimToady: That's what I thought.  It's not updated on the website.
20:41 TimToady but the object of leave is what you're leaving, not what you're returning
20:41 TreyHarris multi it so either can be the object?
20:42 kolibrie so how do you define that the block failed so that values set by 'let' are reverted?
20:42 TreyHarris kolibrie: see "Definition of Success" in S06
20:43 TreyHarris i mean S04
20:43 svnbot6 r12332 | Sage++ | The translator is now smart about ${...} stuff, TestInit.pm now translates with the exception of variable declarations.
20:43 dduncan joined perl6
20:43 TreyHarris PerlJam: you're right, S06 is behind since Aug 9 for some reason.
20:44 TreyHarris other synopses have been updated since
20:46 PerlJam Robrt is prejudiced against S06 or something  ;)
20:46 svnbot6 r12333 | fglock++ | v6 - 'my' works inside '//' and 'err'
20:46 svnbot6 r12333 | fglock++ | v6, PCR - implemented '$?OS'
20:46 TreyHarris & for a meeting
20:47 kolibrie hmm, so returning undef and calling fail are the only ways a block is considered failed, causing 'let' to revert?
20:47 PerlJam TreyHarris: when you return ... for "teaching purposes" you've picked a good example of when *not* to use let  :-)
20:52 xinming_ is now known as xinming
20:52 _calvin_ is now known as kalven
20:52 penk joined perl6
20:55 bpphillip1 left perl6
20:55 TimToady or a good example of when to use an explicit try {...} block.
21:00 svnbot6 r12334 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - v0.15
21:01 mdiep joined perl6
21:01 PerlJam let and temp seem very closely related.  Could we not get by with just one of those with an adverbial modifier for the other?  Or does huffman rule here?
21:03 fglock left perl6
21:03 gaal run out of wakies here, and out of memory too for building profiled. guess we'll have to wait for A to fix...
21:03 gaal good night!
21:03 gaal zz&&
21:03 bobrik joined perl6
21:04 kolibrie gaal: good night
21:10 jmf joined perl6
21:14 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
21:24 b_jonas joined perl6
21:26 trym joined perl6
21:32 dduncan I noticed what seems to be a typo at the top of Synopsis 5; a missing "not"
21:32 nirgle left perl6
21:32 dduncan its in: We now try to call them regex because they haven't been regular expressions for a long time.
21:33 dduncan should probably be "We now try not to call them ..."
21:33 dduncan or "try to not call them"
21:33 SageLT I thought that was correct, "regex" is kind of a slang for something more then a regular expression. But maybe that's just cause I read that literally...
21:34 dduncan the next sentence says: When referring to their use in a grammar, the term rule is preferred.
21:34 SageLT Yeah, good point
21:34 dduncan but even without that sentence, the previous one seems to contradict itself as written
21:35 SageLT but then again, that could just mean that a regex in general, and a rule is in a grammar.
21:35 TimToady The "not" is missing on purpose.
21:36 SageLT My view was that "regex" was a new term, not just a shortening of regular expression. It may not be a right, but ir makes a vlid interpretation
21:36 TimToady not exactly new, but sort of existing as "not quite real regular expressions" already.
21:36 TimToady we're just making a virtue of that.
21:37 TimToady the only people who will be confused by that is computer scientists.
21:37 SageLT that's what I thought
21:37 TimToady to most mortals, P5 regex *are* "regular expressions".
21:38 SageLT Well, I'm a computer scientist, and I read that shortly afer taking an extensive course on grammars and regular expressions, and I got the intended meaning. So there is some hope people will get it
21:38 penk joined perl6
21:39 TimToady Regular Exressions with Grammar Extensions eXcetera...  :)
21:39 TimToady *Expressions
21:40 TimToady Regular, Extended, and Grammatical EXpressions.
21:40 SageLT but dduncan does make a good point that it might be worth making explicit: "A regex is not a regular expression, in the computer scince meaning of the word"
21:40 SageLT or something like that
21:41 TimToady yeah, well, that's been said so many other places already.
21:41 SageLT Well, it looks like some people may still be confused, just by the similarty between "regex" and "REGr EXession"
21:42 SageLT Not a big deal, just thinking about calrity
21:42 SageLT *clarity
21:43 dduncan well, I retract my comment there ... I thought the sentences were just trying to say that regex was renamed to rule
21:43 TimToady but part of the reason for using "regex" is cultural continuity.
21:43 SageLT Wow, I messed that up should be "REGular EXpression"
21:43 TimToady I rather liked calrity
21:44 TimToady well, they were so renamed at one point, but we undid that.
21:44 TimToady but I don't think that's a long-term problem
21:44 dduncan but there was a larger matter that was leading me to look at Synopsis 5 in the first place ... regarding substitutions ... but I'm just going over S5 quickly first to see if it is already addressed ...
21:44 SageLT I don't think it's a big deal. Maybe just explain the meaning of regex as an acronym more clearly, or closer to the sentence in questio
21:47 dduncan what I was originally wanting to check was whether I could put the result of a substitution in a new variable rather than doing it in place, and the Transliteration section at the end of S05 shows me how I can, so I have no new questions
21:52 dduncan fyi, following the large batch of the last 32 updates, Pugs still continues to build fine on my system
21:55 marmic joined perl6
21:59 cjeris left perl6
21:59 SageLT Ah, looks like lwall went ahead and clarified the useage of regex as a specific term.
21:59 SageLT Cool
22:12 jdv79 joined perl6
22:12 jdv79 anyone know if p6 will be able to "reload a module" unlike p5?
22:12 jdv79 typical reason...having to restart apache while dev'ing a MP app...
22:12 obra jdv79: Module::Refresh
22:13 obra or Apache::Reload
22:13 obra both on CPAN for perl5
22:13 jdv79 do they "fully" work?
22:13 TreyHarris hmmm, in building pugs, util/runcompiler fails complaining about the undefined symbol "_Parrot_find_global_s"
22:13 obra nothing is going to work perfectly against an internals change on a module.
22:13 jdv79 we've got a heavy stash i believe
22:13 obra either you don't clear private data or you do.
22:13 obra either one will break a reloading module mid-process
22:14 leo TreyHarris: too old parrot?
22:15 TreyHarris PerlJam: to answer you question, perhaps, but what is a good, concise (preferably can fit on one or two lines) example of a good use of let?
22:15 dduncan SageLT, so something came of the brief discussion after all
22:15 TreyHarris leo: i don't think so, it's r14152.  we're now at r14156
22:16 SageLT dduncan: yup it did
22:16 TreyHarris leo: in any case, my parrot is newer than my pugs tree.
22:16 dduncan surprising you weren't credited though, as you did most of the talking
22:16 dduncan but whatever
22:17 leo TreyHarris: then it could be the install problem - i.e. an old libparrot somewhere
22:17 SageLT I don't care about credit. Just glad to actually get to contribute, a lot of what's in this channell goes over my head
22:17 PerlJam TreyHarris: I don't know, but the pattern for usage appears to be something like  my $var; ... { <something that modifies $var>  <something that may invoke fail> }
22:17 dduncan same here
22:17 jdv79 left perl6
22:18 PerlJam TreyHarris: It seems to me that  let usage is always paired with something that might fail  :)
22:18 * PerlJam takes off his Captain Obvious t-shirt
22:18 TreyHarris PerlJam: you specifically mean, might call C<fail>.
22:18 PerlJam TreyHarris: right.
22:18 dduncan TreyHarris, did you ever get readline+Pugs working again?
22:19 TreyHarris PerlJam: in which case the question is, why does it care about the success of the block it's in?  it would be much clearer to just say "C<fail> causes restoration of hypotheticals"
22:19 TreyHarris if I don't call fail, but i habitually end my block with something that returns 0, that would be surprising if the gestalt idea of let is meant to be as you describe it.
22:20 TreyHarris dduncan: no... i got a readline-capable ghc by just replacing my entire /opt with a coworker's, and configure works.  but my pugs build just failed as i described here a few lines back
22:21 * PerlJam home &
22:22 TreyHarris ... and googling for _Parrot_find_global_s is not turning anything up.  i'll take leo's suggestion now and blow away any other parrot builds i have lying around
22:23 leo TreyHarris: just the installed/public ones might cause a problem
22:26 TreyHarris leo: any clue how to find out if that was the case?  i did have an old parrot in /usr/local, though my $PARROT_PATH was set to my current build.  I blew the /usr/local one away, but make (without cleaning first) still failed with the same issue.  I'd hate to have to start compiling from a clean again unless i was sure that was the problem...
22:26 TreyHarris since the error happens about 1.5 hours after I type make after clean :-(
22:29 leo TreyHarris: no make clean should be needed for this case
22:30 leo it just looks like that pugs picked up the installed instead the PARROT_PATH parrot
22:31 TreyHarris ahhh.  yes
22:31 TreyHarris now the error is dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/local/lib/libparrot.dylib
22:31 TreyHarris  Referenced from: /Users/trey/src/pugs/./pugs
22:31 TreyHarris i rm'd it and will try make again
22:32 TreyHarris leo: yes, and make install of Parrot warns you that if you "want to do Parrot development".  But I didn't realize that Pugs development was included
22:34 svnbot6 r12335 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Set-Relation/ : split the test file 20_Heading.t into 20_Heading_new_and_export.t and 21_Heading_equality.t
22:35 TreyHarris hmm.  not sure what i need to rebuild to force libparrot to be refound in the proper space.  the only Makefile with the string "libparrot" is in Inline-Parrot, and that doesn't get included in pugs
22:35 pasteling "TimToady" at 71.139.7.205 pasted "imcc failure in Parrot build" (48 lines, 9.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19056
22:35 svnbot6 r12336 | Sage++ | The translator now has a -S option to use 'no strict' to get around variable declarations and other stuff like that.
22:35 svnbot6 r12336 | Sage++ | Unfortunately, 'no strict' doesn't work with Pugs (yet), and the translator doesn't declare variables (yet), so any code not already written with strict probably won't work.
22:36 TimToady leo: I noticed some warnings compiling imcc.  maybe I have a strange yacc or lex here.
22:36 TimToady see pbot above.
22:37 leo imcc are just known warnings
22:37 svnbot6 r12337 | Sage++ | Translated TestInit.pm now has 'no strict,' which makes it incompatibly with Pugs (as of yet) but it is now completely translated with respect to the P6 spec.
22:37 svnbot6 r12337 | Sage++ | Adding declarations (my or our or whatever) makes the code completely Pugs-compatible.
22:38 leo the problem is (again) here: compilers/imcc/main.c:510: undefined reference to `Parrot_shared_DOD_block'
22:41 leo having -L/usr/local/lib before -L/home/larry/parrot/blib/lib is for sure a problem - but you did clean /usr/local of any parrot trails, didn't you?
22:41 TimToady I'm quite certain that the only four files that mention that name are as listed in the past at the bottom, though I'm currently grepping my entire machine again.
22:41 dduncan question: what are the best practices in the Pugs repo about setting svn:ignore properties on generated files?
22:42 TimToady ah, found it.
22:42 dduncan right now, I see, for example, a lot of third-party stuff coming up with '?' when I say "svn info"
22:42 dduncan I would like to eliminate those, but I'm not sure what would be a terse solution that isn't also over-reaching
22:43 TimToady leo: you were right, there was still an old library out there I missed.
22:44 TimToady I scanned for files beginning with parrot, and missed libparrot
22:44 leo I'll try to summarize in a bug report to p2
22:45 TimToady sure would be nice if there was a general way to sandbox projects against their own installed oldstuff
22:46 leo there shouldn't be any interference, and actually I was chasing it on my box quite a long time and failed - it just worked
22:47 dduncan oh, when I said "svk info", I meant "svk status"
22:50 TimToady I think maybe I found the difference: LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/lib
22:50 TimToady sittin' in my environment for some reason...
22:51 TreyHarris leo: do you have any idea what i might try to blow away in order to get the other libparrot linked in?  ldd doesn't exist on OS X, and otool, which seems to be ldd's moral equivalent, doesn't report anything on the .o's in dist/build
22:56 mdiep joined perl6
23:00 leo TreyHarris: rm all parrot stuff from /usr/local/*
23:00 TreyHarris leo: i already did
23:00 TreyHarris i'm asking what to blow away in my pugs src tree besides pugs itself
23:01 leo that's a pugs question ;-)
23:01 leo sorry
23:01 TreyHarris ok, thanks leo++
23:02 leo try blib*
23:07 TreyHarris leo: no dice.  oh, well.  i'm making from clean.
23:12 dduncan I think I figured it out ... will try committing said property changes ...
23:12 svnbot6 r12338 | Sage++ | Unknown nodes have be vanquished from all translations across perl5 t/op, testing across other directories underway.
23:15 svnbot6 r12339 | Darren_Duncan++ | set svn:ignore properties using pattern '*' in third-party/judy/Judy-1.0.3/doc/man/man3
23:18 perlbot joined perl6
23:21 dduncan so I'll be going through the others now, carefully ...
23:29 dduncan okay, something I still have to figure out ... how to incrementally add items to a svn:ignore property rather than replacing it
23:30 dduncan if I say this first: svk propset svn:ignore "foo"
23:30 dduncan and then: svk propset svn:ignore "bar"
23:30 dduncan then only 'bar' will be ignored
23:30 clkao sure
23:31 dduncan what's the syntax for "also bar"
23:31 clkao you shoul duse svk pe
23:31 clkao because ps overrides the value
23:31 clkao it's like setting a new value, not appending
23:31 dduncan yes
23:31 clkao there were romours about ps --append
23:31 dduncan on that note, is there a shortcut to just say "ignore everything in the Pugs checkout dir that isn't in the repository"
23:32 dduncan ?
23:32 dduncan something I googled suggested not, but I thought i'd ask
23:32 dduncan never mind
23:41 dduncan clkao, is there a way to specify which editor program is invoked by propedit?
23:42 cm_ joined perl6
23:46 clkao EDITOR
23:49 cm_ is now known as cm
23:56 mdiep joined perl6
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