Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-08-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:07 frankg joined perl6
00:08 frankg read about perl6 inards the other day but I'm curious about the outer stuff now -- is the syntax completely diff from perl5?
00:08 frankg as far as the OOP stuff goes?
00:08 zgh different enough, they're not going to backwards compatibility for the syntax
00:09 zgh the object model is the same I think, at least the perl6 object model is available in perl5 now with Moose
00:09 markstos frankg: syntax for Perl6 objects is described here: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S12.html
00:09 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 12: Objects -
00:09 frankg cool - that's what I need
00:10 markstos frankg: I think you'll be happy that writing "my $self = shift" frequent is no longer necessary. :)
00:10 markstos You can skip that and just write self.other_method if you need to.
00:10 frankg yes, nice change -- I really want to see how it compares to python and ruby
00:10 zgh favorably
00:10 zgh :-)
00:10 frankg good to know
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02:26 agentzh joined perl6
02:26 agentzh hi, there~
02:27 agentzh audreyt: i feel like writing about Judy on win32 and smartlinks.pl on your blog site. :)
02:28 agentzh but first of all, i need to setup the auto-updating mechanism on feather. ;-)
02:28 agentzh Juerd++
02:31 agentzh TreyHarris: those two bugs in smartlinks.pl were fixed last night. feel free to complain to me if you encounter another bugs. ;-)
02:31 agentzh *bug
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02:35 markstos More Perl6 blogging: http://use.perl.org/~markjugg/journal/30714
02:35 lambdabot Title: Journal of markjugg (792)
02:37 TreyHarris markstos: "new() is not needed for simple objects"?  you mean defining a new sub is not required?
02:40 markstos TreyHarris: right. See http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S12.html and search on the page for...
02:40 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 12: Objects -
02:40 markstos All classes inherit a default new constructor from Object.
02:40 markstos Perl5 has no default new(), and Perl6 does.
02:41 markstos Although, I'm sure one of the method-making or object-making modules in Perl5 has a default like this.
02:41 wolverian markstos, "ww// has been replaced with  < &gt"
02:41 wolverian er, s/ww/qw/
02:41 wolverian markstos, you're probably missing a trailing ; on the entity
02:42 markstos fixing...
02:44 TreyHarris markstos: sorry, yes, I knew that defining a new was not required.  but that bullet point makes it sound like *calling* new() isn't required
02:44 agentzh joined perl6
02:46 markstos Ah. I'll see if I can clarify.
02:46 TreyHarris (if you'll recall, I'm the one who informed you of that ;-)
02:48 markstos Oops. Everyone looks sort of the same on IRC.
02:48 TreyHarris heh, true :-)
02:48 markstos If only we had floating photos next to our names.
02:49 kanru joined perl6
02:49 markstos Except those can be annoying sometimes...
02:50 markstos TreyHarris: I've updated the post now to give you a credit mention at the bottom. Thanks!
02:50 markstos wolverian: you too!
02:51 wolverian thanks :)
02:51 wolverian markstos++ # spreading the word
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02:55 TreyHarris I need to get people to start giving karma to trey++.  I'm only TreyHarris on freenode, because somebody else grabbed the nick from nickserv first
02:55 TreyHarris but thanks :-)  markstos++
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03:00 agentzh oh, dear...the terminal of feather is pretty slow here...
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03:12 markstos Ok. I think I found a bug. I'll explain it here, if it sounds like a bug to you, too, I'll submit a formal test for it.
03:13 putter audreyt, etal: Did a paragraph ever get written sketching what is interesting about p6 from a CS perspective?  Ie, the type system, STM, parallel stuff, rules, syntactic flexibility, etc.
03:13 putter I'm mainly thinking of a concise jargony characterization.  Though a longer sketch might be interesting too.
03:13 putter Moving on, (stevan - the tradition continues;) has there been any thought on some standard sub/macro names for low-level elements of p6 behavior?  Like method calls or multi dispatch.  Basically the prelude can define a lexically scoped MOP, which the normal "make prelude go fast" tools can usually compile away.
03:14 putter So aggressive flexibility for both syntax _and semantics_.  :)
03:14 markstos If declare a simple parent and child class in the same file, things are fine. However, if I split it up into a parent class file, a child class file, and script to invoke the child, the bug appears. The child file can't find the parent unless I add "use Parent" to  the child file. Shouldn't "class Child is Parent" be enough ?
03:15 svnbot6 r12584 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
03:15 svnbot6 r12584 | agentz++ | - commented out "use YAML::Syck;", since we no longer need it here.
03:15 agentzh ?eval 1+2
03:15 evalbot_12583 3
03:16 markstos Adding "use Parent" seems wrong, because it's traditionally a "has-a" relationship.
03:17 agentzh ?eval 1+2
03:17 evalbot_12583 3
03:22 agentzh oh, too bad...feather's apache uses the ISO-8859-1 charset...how can i change that to UTF-8?
03:23 agentzh Juerd? audreyt?
03:25 weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
03:27 * agentzh has found an answer from Google. :D
03:28 TreyHarris didn't Damian say something at YAPC about writing up a "why Perl 6 should be interesting to academics" monograph?
03:29 TreyHarris markstos: not sure if that is wrong or not.  it follows Perl 5, certainly--becoming a subclass of module A requires that you use module A before you express that relation.  TimToady was saying last night that 'does' may need to have implicit requiring sometimes.  perhaps 'is' would be covered by the same thing
03:30 TreyHarris (C<but> too)
03:30 TreyHarris s/have implicit/cause implicit/
03:31 markstos TreyHarris: Thanks for the response. I just asked on p6l for the Synopsis (12) to be clarified regarding this matter... it doesn't say one way or the other right now.
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03:37 markstos What's the equivalent for (scalar @a) ?
03:37 markstos ( Is there a handy p5 -> p6 conversion chart ?  )
03:38 PerlJam markstos: scalar @a still works.  You just have to use it in the right context to get the right value out :)
03:39 markstos Ah.
03:39 markstos I also found Perl6/Perl5/Differences.pod, which I'm reviewing.
03:40 markstos I think the answer might be @array.elems
03:40 TreyHarris markstos: yes, that's what you want
03:40 TreyHarris PerlJam: AFAIK, scalar @a doesn't work.  pugs doesn't like it
03:40 TreyHarris ?eval my @a = 1..5; scalar(@a)
03:40 evalbot_12583 is now known as evalbot_12584
03:40 evalbot_12584 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&scalar"
03:41 markstos Right. That's what I got.
03:41 TreyHarris ?eval my @a = 1..5; +(@a)
03:41 evalbot_12584 5
03:41 TreyHarris that works too
03:41 TreyHarris but .elems is clearer
03:41 TreyHarris ?eval my @a = 0..5; +(@a)
03:41 evalbot_12584 6
03:42 * PerlJam could have sworn scalar was still in the perl lexicon
03:43 TreyHarris no.  it's $(), @(), %() now.  but autoboxing means the scalar value of @a is not what you want:
03:43 TreyHarris ?eval my @a = 0..3; $(@a)
03:43 evalbot_12584 [0, 1, 2, 3]
03:43 TreyHarris scalar @a is just an array as a reference (what we'd call an arrayref in Perl 5)
03:43 TreyHarris er, s/as a reference/as a scalar/
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03:50 TreyHarris +(), ?(), and !() are sub contexts of scalar for numeric, boolean, and boolean-negating
03:51 markstos I'm trying to set a default value for a class trait. It looks like a specc'ed but unimplemented feature:
03:51 TreyHarris ?eval my @a = 0..3; my @b; [+(@a), ?(@a), ?(@b)]
03:51 evalbot_12584 [4, Bool::True, Bool::False]
03:51 markstos ?eval class Foo { has $.prop is rw = 1; }
03:51 evalbot_12584 Error:  unexpected "=" expecting trait, "handles", comment, ";" or "}"
03:51 TreyHarris markstos: yes
03:51 markstos TreyHarris: Is there a recommended workaround, short of declaring a method for that?
03:52 markstos I suppose I would just write $.prop = 1; at the top of the file...
03:52 TreyHarris ?eval class Foo { has $.prop is rw; START { $.prop = 1 } }
03:52 evalbot_12584 Error: Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Sub:0x894c330>
03:53 markstos TreyHarris: Is the START block necessary to set a class default ?
03:54 TreyHarris ?eval class Foo { has $.prop; method BUILDALL { $.prop = 1 } }
03:54 evalbot_12584 undef
03:54 TreyHarris markstos: no, was looking for a workaround
03:54 markstos What about just:
03:54 TreyHarris ?eval class Foo { has $.prop; method BUILDALL { $.prop = 1 } }; my Foo $bar .= new; $bar.prop
03:54 evalbot_12584 \undef
03:55 markstos ?eval class Foo { has $.prop;  $.prop = 1;  }
03:55 TreyHarris ?eval class Foo { has $.prop; method BUILD { $.prop = 1 } }; my Foo $bar .= new; $bar.prop
03:55 evalbot_12584 Error: Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Sub:0x894c330>
03:55 evalbot_12584 \1
03:55 TreyHarris ?eval class Foo { has $.prop; method BUILD { $.prop = 1 } }; my Foo $bar .= new; $bar.prop
03:55 evalbot_12584 \1
03:55 TreyHarris that's what you want
03:55 TreyHarris well, no, not what you want.  but it's a workaround that works :-)
03:55 markstos ?eval class Foo { has $.prop;  $.prop = 1;  }
03:55 evalbot_12584 Error: Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Sub:0x894c330>
03:56 markstos TreyHarris: Thanks!
03:57 TreyHarris generally you don't want executable lines inside a class entry.
03:57 TreyHarris s/entry/definition/
03:57 TreyHarris must go for awhile
03:57 TreyHarris &
03:57 markstos That makes sense.
04:26 TimToady that should be a submethod BUILD.
04:27 markstos TimToady. Thanks. I'll change my code.
04:31 TimToady and if it works, it should probably be seeing $!prop since it's trying to set the internal storage, not the virtual.
04:31 TimToady *setting
04:32 TimToady but the OO implementation is all getting reworked soon...
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05:15 TreyHarris < TimToady> but the OO implementation is all getting reworked soon...
05:16 TreyHarris talk about quietly dropping a bombshell :-)
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05:18 wolverian I think he means pugs's internals ...
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05:34 TreyHarris is there any workaround to overload an object's stringification, since neither *infix:<as> nor prefix:{'~'} seem to currently work?
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06:09 agentzh http://feather.perl6.nl/~agentzh/syn/
06:09 lambdabot Title: Index of /~agentzh/syn
06:11 wolverian nice.. what's up with the huge dividers?
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06:14 agentzh dividers?
06:16 wolverian between the sections
06:16 wolverian e.g. immediately after the table of contents, there are two of them, with "back to top" in between
06:16 wolverian the dividers seem oddly big, vertically
06:17 agentzh okay, i'll remove the dividers soon. ;-)
06:18 agentzh i'm also feeling uncomfortable with dev.perl.org's CSS.
06:18 agentzh wolverian: what's your favourite CSS for pod2html?
06:18 wolverian I don't have one.. they all seem rather unsexy
06:18 * agentzh is sad...
06:19 wolverian the CPAN CSS is ok
06:19 agentzh i'll look into ActiveState's CSS and also JSAN's.
06:19 * agentzh thinks CPAN's CSS is terrible.
06:19 wolverian I'd like to see one where the table of contents is a sidebar
06:19 wolverian and the titles aren't in ALLCAPS
06:19 wolverian :)
06:20 wolverian (doable-ish with CSS)
06:21 agentzh hmm, maybe we should get someone to write a new CSS file.
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06:22 wolverian hm, the index <ul> isn't marked with a specific class or id
06:23 agentzh btw, http://feather.perl6.nl/~agentzh/syn will be automatically updated every one hour. ;-)
06:23 lambdabot Title: Index of /~agentzh/syn
06:23 agentzh wolverian: the index is generated by Pod::Html. :)
06:26 wolverian yup
06:27 wolverian it doesn't validate, btw :-)
06:27 wolverian missing one alt attribute
06:27 wolverian er, that was a random CPAN page, sorry
06:28 wolverian well, http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ffeather.perl6.nl%2F%7Eagentzh%2Fsyn%2FS02.html
06:28 wolverian ouch
06:28 lambdabot Title: Result for http://feather.perl6.nl/~agentzh/syn/S02.html - W3C Markup Validator
06:30 agentzh wolverian: fixing
06:30 wolverian agentzh++
06:30 wolverian I'm fearfully low on tuits, sorry
06:30 agentzh np
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06:56 agentzh wolverian: sigh. most of the HTML errors are caused by Pod::Html...
06:56 lambdabot Im going to be a movie star.  I just applied online for this new movie with chris farley.  It only cost me $50!
06:56 wolverian agentzh, really? I wonder why it claims to be xhtml 1.0 strict then..
06:56 lambdabot i'm 19
06:56 wolverian and what does search.cpan.org use then? (it has only sporadic errors)
06:57 agentzh i'll upgrade my local Pod::Html then.
06:57 wolverian there's Pod::Xhtml too, from BBC :)
06:58 agentzh looking
06:58 wolverian oh.. search.cpan.org is html4
07:01 agentzh i'm wondering which module search.cpan.org is using.
07:01 svnbot6 r12585 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
07:01 svnbot6 r12585 | agentz++ | - first attempt to fix HTML errors, wolverian++
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07:03 * agentzh is pondering switching to Pod::Xhtml.
07:06 xinming hmm, anyone here who uses emacs for editing perl 6 scripts?
07:17 TreyHarris xinming: I do
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07:25 xinming TreyHarris: hmm, Ok, since in perl 6, we can't use `sub { } sub { }`, so, we need `sub { }; sub { }` but the problem is, if you use indent in cperl-mode, It will make a newline for the ';' How can we avoid this?
07:26 xinming TreyHarris: I mean the C-M-\
07:26 iblechbot joined perl6
07:26 xinming TreyHarris: try a small example with C-x h C-M-\
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07:41 TreyHarris xinming: i'm not seeing that behavior
07:41 TreyHarris can you paste a small script so i can try what you're trying?
07:42 xinming lisppaste3: url
07:42 lisppaste3 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 and enter your paste.
07:42 xinming TreyHarris: Ok.
07:45 lisppaste3 xinming pasted "indent problem for perl6" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/24531
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07:46 xinming TreyHarris: I think you've customized your cperl-mode, Mine is not configured, I'm lazy to do customization if it doesn't hurt. :-)
07:46 TreyHarris xinming: no, i'm seeing the same behavior
07:46 TreyHarris but why do you have semicolons there?
07:46 agentzh wolverian: the HTML code generated by Pod::Xhtml contains almost 0 error. :)
07:47 wolverian agentzh, almost? :(
07:47 agentzh there's 1 warning according to my Firefox.
07:48 xinming TreyHarris: Because, in perl 6, 'sub { } sub { }' is not allowed.
07:48 TreyHarris that's true
07:48 TreyHarris but you're not on the same line
07:48 TreyHarris a closing brace as the last thing on a line always terminates a statement
07:48 TreyHarris so the semicolon is not required
07:49 * xinming is ashamed for a long time not follow the synopsis...
07:49 xinming TreyHarris: thanks
07:49 TreyHarris "sub foo { ... }; sub bar { ... }", but "sub foo { ... }\nsub bar { ... }"
07:50 TreyHarris thought i think there's an exception for "if $foo { ... }\nelse...."
07:50 agentzh wolverian: sadly the HTML pages from Pod::Xhtml are ugly... :/
07:50 xinming I understand now, for two sub { } in a line without semicolon would raise an error.
07:50 TreyHarris xinming: exactly
07:50 xinming but if they are not in a line, then, they are legal.
07:50 wolverian agentzh, surely you can change the CSS?
07:51 * xinming thinks, It's like a small trick in perl 6. :-)
07:51 agentzh wolverian: well, it's not a CSS issue. Pod::Xhtml inserts too many "<br /><br />" into the page.
07:51 wolverian oh
07:51 wolverian time for a subclass
07:51 wolverian Pod::Xhtml::Cute
07:52 agentzh hehe
07:53 agentzh wolverian: subclassing now...
07:54 wolverian :-)
07:54 wolverian agentzh++
07:54 agentzh i wonder if i should send Pod::Xhtml::Cute to CPAN. :)
07:55 TreyHarris xinming: it's very like the trick about everything being a closure now, or $foo = @bar not being a reference but still making $foo have the content of @bar.  it's all very subtle stuff that TimToady++ has put a lot of thought into so that you don't have to think about it most of the time :-)
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07:59 TreyHarris audreyt: it's midafternoon, where have you been all day?  we miss you. :-)
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08:07 TreyHarris moose!
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08:10 agentzh wolverian: i think postprocessing the HTML source is the simplest way. Pod::Xhtml is not well designed and subclassing it is particularly hard.
08:11 wolverian agentzh, oh. well then.
08:11 wolverian HTML::TreeBuilder to the rescue!
08:11 wolverian (or if you can find a valid SGML POD outputter, XML::LibXML would work too)
08:12 agentzh wolverian: why not plain regexes?
08:12 agentzh i think plain regexes are fine.
08:12 agentzh only a few lines of code...
08:13 wolverian because it's reinventing the wheel
08:13 wolverian the various ways that HTML can be broken are so mindbogglingly, well, various that you don't want to touch it yourself
08:14 agentzh hehe, i don't just want another dependency and extra cost.
08:14 agentzh s/don't just/just don't/
08:14 agentzh everything you said is quite true. :)
08:15 wolverian mm, well discuss it with audrey and others if you think you don't want to make the decision
08:15 agentzh hmm, the HTML source is generated from Pod::Xhtml, so i think it's fine as long as Pod::Xhtml doesn't change.
08:16 wolverian well if you have a dependency on Pod::Xhtml already.. adding another isn't much
08:16 wolverian and HTML::TreeBuilder is rather common
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08:17 agentzh hehe, okay, i'll leave that to someone else as an exercise.
08:17 wolverian sure
08:18 agentzh in the meantime, i'll use the regexes.
08:18 agentzh :)
08:19 wolverian XML::Liberal is nice too
08:20 agentzh looking now
08:25 agentzh oh dear...Pod::Xhtml doesn't support "=hegin html"...
08:25 svnbot6 r12586 | masak++ | * realized, through Conrad Schneiker's mail to perl6-users, that there's a search interface for #perl6 archives at http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log_search/perl6
08:25 svnbot6 r12586 | masak++ | * added 14 new references to READTOO that turned up by searching archives for "paper"
08:25 svnbot6 r12586 | masak++ | * (still need to backlog just to be sure, though)
08:25 svnbot6 r12586 | masak++ | * removed section headings "Current" and "Older" in READTOO, since they were not used, and no clear motive exists for moving things to Older right now
08:25 agentzh *begin
08:25 lambdabot Title: #perl6 irc log search
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08:52 dolmans say there is a class Point with two attributes x and y, are these legal to constructor an object: new Point(x=>2, y=>3) and Point(x=>2, y=>3)?
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08:57 agentzh i think i should stick with Pod::Html...Pod::Xhtml is not satisfactory at all...
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09:09 xinming ?eval class A { method update { $.b = "abcdefg" }}; A.new.update;
09:09 evalbot_12584 is now known as evalbot_12586
09:09 evalbot_12586 \"abcdefg"
09:09 xinming hmm, should this raise an error instead of returning the value in $.b?
09:10 xinming because $.b hadn't been declared yet.
09:17 nothingmuch ingy: congratulations!
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11:02 svnbot6 r12587 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
11:02 svnbot6 r12587 | agentz++ | - stripped extra newlines
11:02 svnbot6 r12587 | agentz++ | - got rid of "=begin html"/"=end html"
11:26 svnbot6 r12588 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
11:26 svnbot6 r12588 | agentz++ | - added more docs to usage outputs.
11:26 svnbot6 r12588 | agentz++ | - added the --fast option with which smartlinks.pl won't
11:26 svnbot6 r12588 | agentz++ |   update the synopses from the web.[util/smartlinks.pl]
11:26 svnbot6 r12588 | agentz++ | - confirmed that option --syn-dir works
11:26 svnbot6 r12588 | agentz++ | - added docs for the --syn-dir option to usage outputs.
11:32 svnbot6 r12589 | agentz++ | [t/02-test-pm/5-todo.t]
11:32 svnbot6 r12589 | agentz++ | - removed too advanced tests where use "[,] ..."
11:34 agentzh fglock: it seems to me the latest v6.pm still can't compile the new Test.pm with &todo defined. are you using an older version of Test.pm?
11:38 agentzh fglock: sorry, my mistake. it compiles now. ;-)
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12:26 Limbic_Region TimToady - thanks for fixing all_parse.t and some of the examples that weren't passing due to syntax errors
12:26 * Limbic_Region was afraid he was going to screw something up
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12:30 agentzh oh, it's very quiet here today...
12:32 weinig joined perl6
12:38 Limbic_Region I can see
12:39 Limbic_Region there are certain people that seem to be a catalyst for in channel participation - a synergy gets started and more and more join in
12:39 Limbic_Region when they are absent - people tend to work on stuff on their own
12:39 Limbic_Region both are good things IMO
12:41 Juerd 05:23 < agentzh> Juerd? audreyt?
12:41 Juerd agentzh?
12:41 agentzh Juerd: hi
12:42 agentzh Juerd: cron is really helpful. :)
12:43 Juerd agentzh: Yes, it is. Is this your first experience with it?
12:43 agentzh Juerd: and the .htaccess file also solves the charset problem of Apache.
12:43 agentzh Juerd: yes. i seldom or never use Linux.
12:44 agentzh feather++
12:44 Juerd agentzh: If you have some spare time to write these things in FAQ-form for the website, I'd be delighted
12:44 Juerd (The site is in the pugs repository, under docs/feather)
12:44 agentzh Juerd: i'd love to!
12:44 Juerd Thanks
12:45 agentzh my pleasure. :)
12:45 agentzh currently i'm writing an article on smartlinks.pl for audreyt's blog. :)
12:46 agentzh will do that in an other day. :)
12:46 Juerd What are smartlinks?
12:47 agentzh please look at the outputs of smartlinks.pl and then you'll see:
12:47 agentzh http://feather.perl6.nl/~agentzh/syn/S04.html
12:47 lambdabot Title: S04
12:48 agentzh :)
12:48 Juerd Ooh... Visual coverage :)
12:48 agentzh yeah :)
12:49 agentzh with this tool, i'll be more motivated to write tests for pugs. :)
12:49 Juerd It's great that people create selfmotivators :)
12:49 agentzh ...util every paragragh of the synopses is covered.
12:49 agentzh hehe
12:49 agentzh *until
13:02 Limbic_Region fglock ping
13:03 fglock joined perl6
13:03 Limbic_Region fglock ping
13:04 Limbic_Region oh, he is using CGI:IRC - it takes a second for things to load
13:04 Limbic_Region fglock ping
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13:06 svnbot6 r12590 | fglock++ | v6 - updated command line options, docs (requires a Module::Compile patch)
13:09 fglock joined perl6
13:10 * Limbic_Region tries again
13:10 fglock joined perl6
13:10 * Limbic_Region doesn't try again
13:10 Limbic_Region fglock ping
13:10 fglock Limbic_Region: pong - sorry, my browser was frozen
13:11 Limbic_Region no worries - here's the deal
13:12 Limbic_Region for the last two days I have tried to update PCR via CPAN.pm - it keeps telling me it is up to date
13:12 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "The first sketch of my post on smartlinks.pl to Audrey's blog. Please comment. :)" (107 lines, 4.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19212
13:12 Limbic_Region so I decide to go and download and install it manually
13:12 Limbic_Region I click the download link from cpan and get
13:12 Limbic_Region http://fx.saintjoe.edu/pub/CPAN/authors/id/F/FG/FGLOCK/Pugs-Compiler-Rule-0.16.tar.gz - 404 not found
13:13 Limbic_Region any idea what's going on?
13:13 integral (that could be indicative that your mirror is behind; I can get it from a mirror near to me)
13:14 agentzh Limbic_Region: change your CPAN mirror and try again?
13:14 Limbic_Region agentzh - I tried several but perhaps they are all not good
13:14 agentzh really? i'm impressed.
13:14 * Limbic_Region tries another one at random
13:14 fglock Limbic_Region: try cpan.pair.com
13:15 Lorn_ fglock: hi :) do you read my reply?
13:15 Limbic_Region got it
13:16 agentzh oh, the latest one on my mirror is 0.12. sigh.
13:16 fglock Lorn_: I'll read it now
13:18 [particle] agentzh: good blog post
13:19 agentzh particle: thanks!
13:19 [particle] i'm just working on adding some unique ids to the pge test suite
13:19 [particle] i think i may change those to smart links
13:19 [particle] ...that format, anyway.
13:19 agentzh particle: nice
13:19 [particle] right now, they disallow ws chars
13:19 [particle] i could instead wrap them in <>, with optional first char
13:20 [particle] this would be a superset of pod links
13:20 agentzh is there any sample? url?
13:20 [particle] today
13:20 [particle] right now it exists only in coke's working copy of parrot
13:20 agentzh ah, okay. no hurry. :)
13:23 fglock Lorn_: create a local copy with: ' svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs pugs '
13:23 lambdabot Title: Revision 12590: /
13:28 cjeris joined perl6
13:28 audreyt agentzh: great writeup! I have a feeling that, like TestMatrix, this will propagate to the CPAN community in due time
13:28 audreyt I'd like to annotate my module's tests against POD too :)
13:28 agentzh hehe
13:28 agentzh thank you.
13:29 audreyt it's interesting how Pugs has become a net exporter of software engineering technologies into CPAN...
13:29 agentzh yes, it's fun.
13:29 agentzh -Ofun
13:30 audreyt glad to know that the optimization worked
13:30 * audreyt spent a whole day with GHC on AIX 4.3... happily everything worked out for $job
13:30 Limbic_Region audreyt - a kludgey version of the example parseability tester is in the repo now
13:30 audreyt Limbic_Region: yes, I noticed, I noted TimToady's commits too :)
13:30 audreyt Limbic_Region++
13:30 Limbic_Region TimToady added a try block which fixed a problem he was having locally plus a half a dozen fixes to the examples
13:30 Limbic_Region oh good
13:30 audreyt TimToady++
13:30 * Limbic_Region was afraid $work had completely consumed you
13:31 Limbic_Region yes TimToady and audreyt plus plus
13:31 audreyt the client site has no internet
13:31 audreyt so... yeah.
13:31 audreyt (and it's in 8th floor, so citywide wifif didn't work there eitheR)
13:31 Limbic_Region :-(
13:32 Limbic_Region is there any reason for me to test the Win32 whacky behavior or have you not had a chance to look locally yet?
13:32 agentzh audreyt: is there a delay between saving posts and showing posts on your site?
13:32 audreyt I havn't got a chance. fortunately tomorrow is $job-free day
13:32 audreyt agentzh: no there is not
13:33 * agentzh is trying to find a button to click...
13:33 Limbic_Region well, don't spend a lot of time on it - your time is better used elsewhere - there are kludgey work arounds and "working" is what's important
13:34 audreyt true but, a failing test in t/ will make me feel better :)
13:34 audreyt or a failing test in ext/File-Find/t, come to think about tthat.
13:34 audreyt now the perf work is done, I plan to spend tomorrow looking at regressions
13:34 audreyt before I swap in the new MOP
13:35 audreyt so that the Judy/Interning regressions doesn't get mixed with MOP regressions
13:35 audreyt so if a failing test is there tomorrow I'll look at it... probably first
13:35 audreyt as ext/ sorts higher than t/
13:35 * Limbic_Region is going to run a new smoke this morning
13:35 audreyt agentzh: you put the state in "Draft"
13:36 agentzh oh...
13:36 Limbic_Region is there a reason that parrot has to be part of the path to run rules tests or can PCR handle those tests?
13:36 agentzh what can i do now then?
13:36 audreyt nothing... it's posted
13:36 audreyt agentzh++
13:36 agentzh okay, finally see the "publish" option...
13:37 audreyt ...which I pressed for you. it's on air now :)
13:37 audreyt agentzh++
13:37 agentzh :)
13:38 agentzh oh, it looks nice.
13:39 mako132 joined perl6
13:39 agentzh except the titles...
13:39 agentzh i mean subtitles...
13:40 cmarcelo joined perl6
13:40 cmarcelo hello
13:41 * Limbic_Region repeats his earlier question
13:41 agentzh cmarcelo: hi
13:41 Limbic_Region is there any reason Parrot needs to be accessible to run the full test suite - can't PCR fill the role of rules?
13:44 cmarcelo agentzh++ # smartlinks is cool =)
13:44 agentzh Hmm, good question. :)
13:44 agentzh cmarcelo: thanks!
13:45 audreyt Limbic_Region: yes it can.
13:45 audreyt want to help writing a bridge?
13:45 audreyt also, which one should be fallback?
13:45 audreyt modifier? pragma?
13:46 audreyt use rx 'PCR';?
13:47 audreyt currently Pugs expects to send and receive rule match objects in a particular format
13:47 Limbic_Region audreyt - sorry, was on PerlMonks
13:47 audreyt PGE_Match 2 5 [PGE_Array [PGE_Match 2 5 [] []]] []
13:48 audreyt a dumper form PGE into that format is in parrot/runtime/parrot/library/PGE/Hs.pir
13:48 Limbic_Region not sure as far as writing a bridge - /me thinks fglock much better qualified - but here are some thoughts
13:48 audreyt if PCR match object can dump to that format
13:48 audreyt then we can trivially call out to PCR
13:48 mdiep joined perl6
13:48 audreyt the production rules are:
13:48 Limbic_Region 1.  We should have a single module or pragma that does the fallback for us - that way test scripts are abstracted and any rules plugin can be added later
13:48 audreyt    data MatchPGE
13:48 audreyt        = PGE_Match Int Int [MatchPGE] [(String, MatchPGE)]
13:48 audreyt        | PGE_Array [MatchPGE]
13:48 audreyt        | PGE_String String
13:48 audreyt        | PGE_Fail
13:49 hexmode joined perl6
13:49 audreyt the "Int" part and "String" part are normal numbers and double-quoted strings; the "MatchPGE" part is recursive
13:49 audreyt i.e. it can contain submatches. (either positional in the [MatchPGE] array, or named with the ("name", match) syntax)
13:50 Limbic_Region 2.  That module/pragma should also be our universal translator - we should not expect PGE and PCR to maintain uniformity
13:50 audreyt a "bridge" is a perl5 module, or a new method to PCR's Match, that causes this format be dumped
13:50 Limbic_Region 3.  This should all be done by someone who knows what they are doing ;-)
13:50 audreyt sure. the translator for PGE, for example, ins in src/pge/run_pge.pir
13:51 audreyt which is outside PGE proper
13:51 Lorn_ fglock: the problem with Module::Compile it is a v6.pm problem? or Module::Compile problem?
13:51 Lorn_ is now known as Lorn
13:51 fglock audreyt: this command line syntax now works, requires a Module::Compile patch to ignore the '-e' switch: echo 42.say | perl -e 'use v6-alpha'
13:51 fglock Lorn_: it's a perl5 command line problem
13:51 audreyt fglock: oh wow
13:51 audreyt fglock: patch url?
13:51 fglock audreyt: one sec
13:52 audreyt Limbic_Region: do you think calling it re::engine makes sense?
13:52 audreyt or re::override? or just "re"?
13:53 Lorn fglock: hmm, ok, i finished the instalation of svn, and i'm sync now.
13:53 audreyt or %ENV<PUGS_P6REGEX_ENGINE> ?
13:54 Alias_ joined perl6
13:54 Alias_ seen audreyt?
13:54 audreyt Alias_: hi! ltns
13:55 Alias_ indeed, trips to other countries and dealing with personal/family issues and eve online (darned Schwern)
13:55 audreyt oy. but I see you survived and are back to the modlist
13:56 Alias_ Yeah, I'm gradually starting to spool up normal life again
13:56 audreyt vanilla at $job has proved to be invaluable. thanks for getting xdg on the boat :)
13:56 Alias_ WRT P6 sparse arrays, am I right in thinking that for all current cases where we use hashes with positive integer keys, it's now going to be faster to use arrays?
13:56 audreyt why, yes.
13:57 Alias_ And less memory too?
13:57 * Alias_ thinks maybe, but not much less
13:57 audreyt sure.
13:57 audreyt well, one pointer less for each key
13:57 Alias_ righto
13:57 audreyt so not much.
13:58 Alias_ That's a lot though, when you're data is just a boolean though
13:58 Alias_ s/though//
13:58 audreyt er, yes.
13:58 audreyt Judy has another Set type
13:58 audreyt which can be used natively to implement Set/Junctions some day I hope
13:58 audreyt optimized for the case where your data is just a boolean
13:58 Alias_ What is $work at the moment, that Vanilla is used for
13:59 audreyt it's an jifty application running on AIX and Win32.
13:59 Alias_ Because Jifty is one of my test cases for Win32, and currently is fails horribly
13:59 Lorn fglock: i got some error, on perl -Ilib -e   'use v6-alpha'   ' "hello world".say '
13:59 Alias_ s/is/it/
13:59 Lorn fglock: http://pastebin.com/773231
13:59 buubot The paste 773231 has been copied to http://erxz.com/pb/2846
13:59 audreyt fails, as in not passing tests for its deps? well I use "notest install"...
13:59 Alias_ eep
13:59 Alias_ ok
14:00 Alias_ Just FYI also, if you disable the strange and sort of broken privilege escalation protection, Vanilla works on the latest Vista too
14:01 audreyt I mean, andreas implemented notest in CPAN shell, I gotta use it for something...
14:01 audreyt k, noted :)
14:01 fglock Lorn: you need to run perl5/Pugs::Compiler::Rule 'make install'
14:01 Khisanth well there is a but in Cache::Simple::TimedExpiry in the latest version so that particular dep isn't going to pass either way ...
14:01 Lorn fglock: ok
14:01 rashakil_ joined perl6
14:01 Alias_ Also, kane is finally going to add a CPANPLUS_IS_RUNNING-like environment variable that actually does what it says
14:02 Alias_ So I might also soon get enough of Module::Install::With able to be finished to start porting bits of M:I over to it
14:02 audreyt good. we need to probe that in Module::AutoInstall
14:02 audreyt exactly the same way it probes for the .cpan lock
14:02 * Alias_ nods
14:02 Alias_ See M:I:With code for my centralisation of all the "who am I playing with" helper functions
14:03 Alias_ Once all that works, I'd like to go through the rest of the code and switch everything over to it
14:03 audreyt now that 5.10 is looming with the inevitable CPANPLUS borgification
14:03 Alias_ Which still freaks me out
14:03 Alias_ Module::Build isn't ready yet, CPANPLUS arguably isn't ready yet
14:03 audreyt it's very important that the, ehem, dual core" situation does not cause breakage
14:03 Alias_ Any eta on 5.10
14:03 audreyt Module::Build is already in
14:03 Alias_ It's in, but it doesn't work
14:04 Alias_ As long as the big problems are fixed before 5.10, I'm happy though
14:04 audreyt rgs makes the call on eta, not me :)
14:04 Alias_ true
14:04 audreyt as long as there are big problems, I'm pretty sure there won't be a 5.10 :)
14:04 Alias_ Dunno if rgs is aware of them all though
14:04 Alias_ Maybe I should email him
14:04 Alias_ (I really don't have time for this stuff though)
14:05 audreyt s/him/p5p/
14:05 Alias_ Well yes, but him first
14:05 Khisanth email him your IRC logs :)
14:05 audreyt so I can ge tthe mail too and chime in (yes I'm back to p5p but havn't had much time except lurking
14:05 Alias_ I got a ticking off from Bill/Richard at YAPC for not contacting people quitely first enough before I, as they put it, open up all guns blazing :)
14:05 bpphillips joined perl6
14:05 Alias_ quietly
14:06 Alias_ e.g. the rt.cpan anon web thing
14:06 audreyt *nod*
14:06 fglock audreyt: mm - now it seems to work even without the M::C patch - maybe I was doing something wrong
14:06 audreyt fglock: cool then, as I think M::C wouldn't interfere
14:07 audreyt that's fantastic :)
14:07 Alias_ BTW, how soon should I have before PPI use v6 support starts to become needed
14:07 audreyt as soon as the first CPAN module that uses v6 becomes a dependency for a non-v6 module
14:07 audreyt which... I don't know how soon.
14:07 audreyt definitely before this christmas.
14:07 Alias_ ok
14:07 Alias_ hrm
14:07 Alias_ sigh
14:07 Limbic_Region audreyt - $work called me away - will back log and let you know what if any input I can give - TTFN
14:07 * Limbic_Region & # $work
14:08 Alias_ I guess I need to look into generalising the implementation of hidden content I created for heredocs
14:08 audreyt but you can work reactively, i.e. punt until someone screams at you :))
14:08 Alias_ Oh I am
14:08 Lorn fglock: the delay for print 'hello world' its normal?
14:08 Alias_ The PPI bug queue is already embarrasingly long, and "No patches accepted" is starting to yield fruit
14:09 audreyt alias++
14:09 Alias_ audreyt++ # Everything I ever learned about encouraging contributors
14:09 audreyt :D
14:09 Alias_ (... I stole ruthlessly from you)
14:10 Alias_ sigh, ok, back to it then
14:10 audreyt my pleasure. *curtsies*
14:10 Alias_ I just saw ingy's grant acceptance
14:10 zgh joined perl6
14:10 Alias_ Which means I probably need to get YAML::Tiny finished too, because YAML.pm gets yoinked out and replaced :/
14:10 fglock Lorn: how much delay?
14:11 Alias_ ETOOMUCHTODO
14:11 Alias_ On the plus side, Mango++
14:11 [particle] ETOOLITTLETIME :)
14:11 Alias_ indeed
14:11 Khisanth $Alias.clone; :)
14:11 fglock Lorn: it needs some time to precompile the compiler, but that only happens once
14:11 Alias_ Khisanth: I'm a Gemini... so often I've wished I was _actually_ twins
14:12 Lorn fglock: the time is user    0m6.510s
14:12 Alias_ Khisanth: But then I wonder, would I be the cool twin, or the shy twin...
14:12 Lorn fglock: and the cpu go to 100% while compile...
14:12 Khisanth well if they are clones then all of them is you
14:12 Lorn ops
14:13 Alias_ audreyt: oh, also on the WTF queue, WTF is with YAML::Syck putting a blank line after ---
14:13 Lorn interprets ( confuse now )
14:13 Alias_ audreyt: YAML::Syck is less compatible with YAML than YAML::Tiny is, in my tests
14:14 Alias_ (and I only test the JSON-subset of data)
14:14 audreyt Alias_: ...a blank line?
14:14 Alias_ ---\n\ncontent
14:14 audreyt $ perl -MYAML::Syck -e 'print Dump "content"'
14:14 audreyt --- content
14:15 Alias_ Reported by (I forget)
14:15 Alias_ hang on
14:16 audreyt Lorn: if you save your file instead feeding it via STDIN to perl -e, then the compilation is cached
14:17 Alias_ audreyt: checkout http://svn.phase-n.com/svn/cpan/trunk/YAML-Tiny
14:18 Alias_ edit t/lib/MyTests.pm to enable $COMPARE_SYCK, then make test
14:18 Alias_ The only tests for YAML::Tiny are to compare it's behaviour against YAML
14:18 Alias_ (and now Syck)
14:18 Alias_ its
14:19 Alias_ So either 1. YAML.pm needs to change, 2. YAML::Syck needs to change 3. erm.. dunno
14:22 prefiks joined perl6
14:22 audreyt Alias_: YAML::Syck::Dump( @$object )  doesn't workl; Dump only handles one arg at the moment
14:23 agentzh g'night &
14:23 audreyt I don't see the blank line
14:23 agentzh left perl6
14:23 audreyt agentzh: g'nite!
14:23 Alias_ ok, will skip tests for multi-document tests
14:23 audreyt I changed it to
14:23 audreyt                local $@;
14:23 audreyt                my $syck_out = eval { YAML::Syck::Dump( $object->[0] ) };
14:24 audreyt which test reveals the blank line thing?
14:25 Lorn audreyt: i not use -e, i create a file "use v6-alpha; "hello, world".say;"
14:26 audreyt ah. then second time around it should be faster, yes
14:26 ingy hola
14:26 fglock Lorn: did you have Cache::Cache installed?
14:26 fglock s/did/do/
14:27 audreyt ingy: congrats re grant
14:27 Lorn fglock: Cache::Cache is up to date.
14:28 audreyt I see there's a C-based libyaml now too :)
14:29 Alias_ (but it isn't finished...?)
14:29 Alias_ See Perl Foundation blog
14:30 Alias_ OK, changed tests to skip if not @$object == 1 and blank line bug goes away
14:30 Alias_ hmm... and other bugs found :)
14:31 Alias_ svn update and repeat make test
14:32 Alias_ syck doesn't strip comments?
14:33 fglock Lorn: it takes about 6s (windows XP, crusoe 1GHz) and 1s (ubuntu, pentium 4, ???GHz)
14:33 vel joined perl6
14:34 ingy audreyt: thanks
14:35 ingy I found out about that here first ;)
14:35 audreyt x: foo
14:35 audreyt   #bar
14:35 fglock Lorn: and it takes about half the time when running the file a second time
14:35 audreyt ingy: the snippet above, syck considers it a line continuation and YAML.pm considers it a comment
14:35 fglock biab &
14:35 ingy audreyt: syck is correct I believe...
14:36 audreyt Alias_: syck is correct I believe...
14:36 ingy haha
14:36 Alias_ hrm... will YAML.pm be fixed?
14:36 audreyt now ingy gets his grant, sure :)
14:36 ingy I'm not entirely sure actually
14:36 Alias_ Because the tests it fails are from real world sample files I got from Plagger and Vanilla Perl
14:36 Alias_ So any change has real world impact
14:37 ingy Alias_: I'll ask on #yaml
14:37 Alias_ ok, thanks
14:39 Alias_ ingy: Checkout and make test on http://svn.phase-n.com/svn/cpan/trunk/YAML-Tiny to see the cases where YAML and YAML::Syck disagree on comments
14:41 Lorn fglock: hmm, i had do something wrong, because in perl -e or file.pl the time is, about 7s
14:41 ingy 06:44 < xitology> seems to be a comment :)
14:41 ingy 06:45 < xitology> ' #' cannot appear in a plain scalar.
14:41 audreyt (though it's isomorphic to the foo/#bar one above)
14:42 Alias_ (right)
14:42 ingy xitology is the best spec guru we have
14:42 Alias_ So I should assume a syck bug?
14:43 ingy looks so
14:43 Alias_ ok
14:43 * ingy looks forward to integrating libyaml
14:43 iblechbot joined perl6
14:43 ingy audreyt: is there a url for my grant acceptance?
14:44 audreyt http://news.perlfoundation.org/2006/08/grant_approved_port_pyyaml_to_1.html
14:44 ivas joined perl6
14:44 audreyt http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/22/1016231
14:44 lambdabot Title: use Perl | 2006 3rd Quarter Grant Votes
14:44 audreyt "The PyYAML port is to be done by Ingy (Brian Ingerson) and was approved because frankly, YAML support in Perl ain't all that great and there are few better qualified that Ingy to get this done right."
14:46 ingy I hope that is true...
14:46 ingy I think it is
14:46 ingy But I'll be doing it pugstyle anyway
14:46 Alias_ Ditto. If there are any, they are most certainly "few"
14:47 audreyt I can't think of one...
14:50 nothingmuch_ Alias_ || audreyt: can you please pull magic to give IVORW comaint on Tie::FTP?
14:50 nothingmuch_ it doesn't show up in my comaint giving page
14:50 Alias_ oh right, yes
14:50 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
14:52 audreyt I'll let alias do it :)
14:52 Alias_ nothingmuch: You can't because GIFF holds primary
14:52 * Alias_ didn't even know audreyt had perms :)
14:52 nothingmuch GIFF?
14:52 audreyt I've had it for years now :)
14:53 Alias_ Tie::FTP  GIFF  first-come
14:53 nothingmuch wtf
14:53 nothingmuch it's not in his author dir
14:53 Alias_ audreyt: on Tie::FTP, or as PAUSE admin?
14:53 nothingmuch hmm
14:53 nothingmuch i may have passed it on
14:53 nothingmuch but not primary
14:53 audreyt Alias_: pause admin
14:53 nothingmuch i never do that =/
14:53 nothingmuch odd
14:53 audreyt I think I'm still pause committer too
14:53 audreyt not sure
14:55 Alias_ You can't pass on first-come
14:55 Alias_ only primary
14:56 Alias_ "Added IVORW to co-maintainers of Tie::FTP."
14:56 Alias_ IVORW will probably need to upload again
14:56 Alias_ If they have already...
14:56 audreyt ...or reindex...
14:56 Alias_ or that
14:57 audreyt (background: openfoundry.org was running on a forked copy of PAUSE, and I hacked on PAUSE.pm a bit to make it uploadable to CPAN)
14:57 audreyt but then we switched everything to svk and that plan was dopped
14:58 clkao you mean chromatic switched everything to svk?
14:59 audreyt not sure what that has to do with chromatic
14:59 ivas left perl6
14:59 audreyt we as in the openfoundry-version-control-plan-as-drafted-by-clkao :)
15:00 Alias_ clkao: So... SVK::GUI... :)
15:01 clkao audreyt: everything2
15:01 audreyt lol
15:03 plisk joined perl6
15:05 svnbot6 r12591 | fglock++ | * v6 - export V6NOTIDY=1 - and Test.pm compiles in less than 4s
15:07 ivas joined perl6
15:08 audreyt wow
15:08 audreyt my macbook just fell from 2m height to floor
15:08 audreyt LCD case cracked open and everything froze
15:08 Limbic_Region does the smoke harness abandon if a test is taking "too long"?
15:09 obra poor audrey :/
15:09 audreyt (it fell LCD-side down first)
15:09 audreyt ...and then it rebooted itself
15:09 PerlJam fell?  Or was it *pushed*?  /me suspects foul play.
15:09 fglock audreyt: ugh
15:09 audreyt then everything continued to work just fine.
15:09 audreyt the plastic case is rather easy to push back in, too.
15:09 Alias_ Just like your intestines when you suffer a gut wound
15:10 Alias_ (doesn't mean everything is ok though)
15:10 Limbic_Region t/examples/all_parse.t works fine for me outside of the harness but the smoke report showed 100% failure???
15:10 audreyt PerlJam: fell. I was in the shower, the computer is placed on the shelf, which I guess became a bit slippery.
15:10 audreyt I'll probably refrain from IRC'ing from the shower for a few days.
15:10 Alias_ PerlJam: Questions about the use of a computer in the shower will not be addressed
15:11 PerlJam Alias_: I have no such questions.  I take a laptop with me to the strangest places too  :)
15:11 Alias_ audreyt: I think you really need a ToughBook specifically for that case
15:11 audreyt I'm surprised at how tough this macbook has proven itself to be.
15:11 * [particle] suggests dry cleaning
15:11 Alias_ Speaking of macs, I should fire up my new mac
15:11 audreyt esp. the LCD part, which if it was the old Asus, would have broken ~4 times already
15:11 * Alias_ wonders what sort of screen it takes
15:12 Alias_ Time to buy it a monitor methinks
15:12 audreyt but it's clearly a sign I should stop abusing it :)
15:12 audreyt g'nite
15:13 bpphillips joined perl6
15:14 Alias_ What. The. Hell
15:14 Alias_ Mac OS 9!!!
15:15 Alias_ Hm.. background picture of someone else's girlfriend...
15:15 Alias_ I think this mac wasn't cleaned before it was sold
15:15 * Alias_ prepares for some Voyeurism
15:15 PerlJam Alias_: I take it when you said "new" you meant "new to you"?
15:15 Alias_ I hate Macs, but I'm starting to need one for things like File::HomeDir testing
15:15 Alias_ And other platform issues
15:16 Alias_ So I bought a G4 tower for $100 on eBay
15:17 Alias_ hmm.. and apparently it's hung already
15:17 fglock clkao: try running v6 make test with 'export V6NOTIDY=1'
15:18 Alias_ I guess now I need to get a OS X license
15:18 clkao fglock: uhm?
15:19 Alias_ oh man, cooperative multiprocessing really sucks
15:19 fglock clkao: it disables the call to Perl::Tidy, goes 25% faster here
15:19 clkao oh ok. i don't need v6 to be any faster
15:19 clkao otherwise i will actually start using them
15:19 clkao too dagerous ;)
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15:20 fglock clkao: :)
15:20 clkao fglock: do the tests i included pass now?
15:20 clkao i saw lots of failure yesterday
15:21 fglock clkao: I don't know yet - I'll try again in a few hours
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15:23 Alias_ hrm, if a program hangs in OS 9, there wasn't much you could do was there
15:24 clkao ok
15:25 fglock clkao: I'll look for a zip() implementation - this should fix hash.t
15:25 fglock lunch &
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15:54 nothingmuch Alias_: am I maint right now?
15:54 Alias_ yes
15:54 nothingmuch okay
15:54 nothingmuch thanks
15:55 * nothingmuch wasn't sure from the statement
15:55 [particle] where can i find the pod spec for perl6?
15:55 audreyt pugs/docs/Perl6/Spec/Documentation.pod
15:55 [particle] thx!
15:56 audreyt damian says he'll commit a new rev in a few days
15:56 Aankhen`` joined perl6
15:56 audreyt it's still in flux...
15:56 [particle] will the smartlink format fit into std pod?
15:56 audreyt clkao: to support zip() and each(), Data::Bind need to support the idea of pipes
15:56 Alias_ What is changing?
15:56 audreyt namely, the callconv would be
15:57 audreyt func($obj, \@pos1, \%nam1, \@pos2, \%nam2, ...)
15:57 audreyt at perl5 land
15:58 audreyt in zip(1,2,3;4,5,6), the (1,2,3) are in pos1, aand 4,5,5 are in pos2
15:58 clkao what what? why second pos and named?
15:58 clkao oh ok
15:58 audreyt feeds
15:58 clkao and how do we use them?
15:58 clkao uhm wait
15:59 clkao isn't that [\[1,2,3],\[4,5,6]] ?
15:59 clkao hm, i don't know ; much yet
16:00 audreyt sub zip (*@@slices) { }
16:00 clkao @.@
16:00 lambdabot Not enough arguments to @.
16:00 audreyt then @slices[0][0] is 1
16:00 audreyt @slices[1][0] is 4
16:00 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
16:00 audreyt @slices[0]<foo> is not defined
16:00 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
16:00 audreyt but if you had said zip(1,2,3, foo=>4 ; 5,6,7)
16:00 audreyt then it would be 4.
16:01 audreyt yes, very complicated.
16:01 clkao "hide until" next week
16:01 audreyt (and pugs's new ast migration is partly to address this)
16:01 clkao sorry, i have svn::mirror craziness to fix
16:01 audreyt which simply had no counterpart in old ast
16:01 clkao *nod*
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16:01 audreyt oh. "svk pull" for pugs now always do a mergeback and report checksum mismatch
16:01 clkao what's the status compiling the ast to classes?
16:01 audreyt on my laptop
16:02 clkao audreyt: a mergeback?/? how come?
16:02 audreyt I don't know. I just ^C for now
16:02 audreyt truly weird. might be the new pull logic
16:02 clkao nopaste the output?
16:02 clkao hmm
16:02 audreyt and just for pugs not other checkouts
16:02 audreyt comp to mooseclass is done but the ast itself is being integrated
16:03 audreyt maybe in another couple weeks when it's stable and working
16:03 audreyt great. openfoundry down again so I can't test :/
16:04 audreyt till tomorrow then
16:08 obra morning, audrey
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16:27 xinming audreyt: ping
16:27 zgh joined perl6
16:29 Alias_ obra: Someone responded to my post about web anon-rt.cpan pointing to a CPAN module for interfacing with a blog comment anti-spam thing... it may or may not be useful
16:29 Psyche^ joined perl6
16:29 Alias_ Your thoughts on that avenue? It means pushing the bug reports over the network to the service before accepting...
16:30 obra Alias_: if you can sell robrt on it, I'll do it. but I'm tired of battling the commentspam. (note that many of our best spammers are humans. the human tests Do Not Helo)
16:30 obra Help, even.
16:30 Alias_ Yeah, they said
16:30 Alias_ I am stunned at the idea of human spammers being profitable
16:30 Alias_ What the hell are they trying to do
16:31 Alias_ Just Google points?
16:31 Alias_ Because we could always not auto-link URIs
16:31 fglock joined perl6
16:31 obra Alias_: there's a lot of cheap labor out there.
16:31 obra Alias_: it doesn't help
16:31 obra I've tried.
16:32 obra If you can solve the spam problem, lots of folks would be interested.
16:32 Alias_ And yet we allow anonymous emails
16:32 Alias_ Well, that's what I find the most confusing
16:32 Alias_ Email is ok, but web is not
16:32 Juerd email is mostly to-one, not to-many.
16:32 Juerd The to-many's have moderation anyway
16:33 Alias_ Juerd: If you email to rt, it's to-many
16:33 Juerd Less impact per message. Less incentive to clean up.
16:33 obra targetted email that runs through spamassassin lets in relatively little spam. email spammers aren't interested in targetting a specific address
16:33 Juerd Alias_: "mostly" :)
16:33 obra blog spammers are targetting a specific venue.
16:33 Alias_ But rt isn't a blog, which means they are RT spammer?
16:33 Juerd I get more and more targeted spam
16:33 obra Alias_: for their purposes, it is
16:34 obra Alias_: I'm committed to following perl.org's lead on this one. Robrt has put much more energy into this than I have.
16:34 Alias_ And we put an email address to email on the front page... which means humans will just email that
16:34 Alias_ I'm just really confused I guess
16:34 Alias_ I don't understand how they won't just adapt
16:34 Alias_ And register a new bitcard account every time or something
16:35 obra Because bitcard does address verification.
16:35 obra And spammers are historically very not cool with having their addresses verified.
16:35 Alias_ I asked about doing address verification for the public web bug reports, and got told no
16:35 Alias_ We already require an email address
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16:36 Alias_ You report via the web, but email the contact email to verify before you let it leave the holding area
16:36 obra Right. I'm not about to build ANOTHER address verification system. that's part of what we use bitcard for
16:37 Alias_ bitcard is an account though, it needs a password and so on
16:37 obra Yes.
16:38 obra If you solve the world's spam problems, I'll turn back on anonymous comments.
16:38 obra But. it was making rt.cpan unusable for everyone.
16:38 Alias_ I just did... you verify addresses, without scaring people off by making them subscribe to something
16:39 Juerd I'm okay with having my address verified.
16:39 Juerd I'm absolutely not okay with having my address stored in a central database.
16:40 obra Alias_: go sell this to robert
16:40 Alias_ ok
16:40 Juerd (snail mail address, that is)
16:40 obra Juerd: we're talking about email only
16:40 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
16:41 Juerd Oh, okay. Language thing, then. I just now realised that "address" can also mean "e-mail address".
16:41 Juerd The spam problem is solved by changing e-mail.
16:42 Juerd Radically.
16:43 zgh joined perl6
16:43 Juerd Meanwhile, (tubular bells)++
16:44 Alias_ I figure we just need to create a proper immune system for the intarweb
16:45 xinming How to type the smile face in utf-8 please?
16:45 xinming I've searched pugs slides from audreyt, But I can't find it... :-/
16:45 xinming oops. sorry, found it, It's too small in my screen. :-/
16:48 Juerd For smileys in unicode, I always go to search.cpan.org/~autrijus/
16:48 Juerd For copy/pasting :)
16:50 kolibrie Juerd: I plan to buy a plain, boring, nice keyboard.  Do you have any brand suggestions?
16:51 Juerd Key Tronic
16:51 Juerd The ErgoForce models, KT2001pro and such.
16:52 * kolibrie goes to look them up (thanks Juerd)
16:54 Juerd I'm really starting to hate my kinesis keyboard, by the way.
16:55 xinming Juerd: hmm, If I write some test, Is it ok to use some chinese unicode characters? Since I really don't know where to find the utf8 characters. :-/
16:55 Juerd It's better for my hands, but not comfortable. It's annoying.
16:55 Juerd xinming: Why wouldn't it be?
16:55 Juerd As long as it's not profane :)
16:55 cjeris Juerd: which kinesis?  i tried a kinesis maxim and it was okay but too stiff
16:56 Juerd cjeris: Contoured.
16:56 Juerd I loved it. I'm starting to hate it.
16:56 cjeris oh, ok.  can't use those, wrist pronation is part of what i can't take
16:56 Juerd What is pronation?
16:56 cjeris turning your palm flat instead of vertical/inward
16:56 Juerd With this keyboard, my wrists are almost perfectly straight
16:56 cjeris i have a Comfort because it lets you get higher tilt
16:57 Juerd I want IBM to create a split model of their UltraNav keyboards.
16:57 xinming Juerd: Well, Why I thougt of this is because, some people might not understand what I means, hmm, but now, I'll write the test first. :-)
16:57 Juerd Not fixed split, but two separate parts.
16:58 obra I'd even support a fixed split ultranav
16:59 Juerd I'd support it
16:59 Juerd But when they do something new, they have the option to do it GOOD.
16:59 cjeris Comfort is big, heavy, clunky, expensive, and a bit too tall, but the infinite adjustability is lovely
16:59 Juerd well.
16:59 Juerd Big is no option, because big means the mouse is too far away.
17:00 Juerd The contoured keyboard is really great for typing text, but it absolutely sucks for code.
17:00 cjeris in that case you remove the numeric-keypad module from the right and reattach it on the left :)
17:00 obra Juerd: at the moment, the only keyboard I can find that I can type on for long periods and travel with is an MS Natural Elite. What else should I look at?
17:00 xinming Juerd: hmm, what does quote protection mean? hmm, is "qq" in quote protection, or not?
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17:01 xinming hmm, BTW, I know what is the difference between q and qq, But just don't know, what the quote protection will protect, protect variable, or protect the string itself. :-P
17:08 Juerd xinming: I don't know what quote protection is.
17:08 Juerd obra: Depends on your specific needs. I've used dozens of keyboards intensely, and have had the complete range of physical problems.
17:09 Juerd obra: And if there's one thing I learned, it's that every problem demands its own keyboard.
17:09 Juerd The other thing is that the ideal keyboard doesn't exist.
17:09 xinming Juerd: hmm, can you explain about the q:w and q:ww?
17:09 Juerd (It would be a dual ultranav)
17:09 Juerd xinming: No, sorry.
17:10 obra *nod* I've got cubital tunnel syndrome. I really only type comfortably with a split keyboard in my lap. The Kinesis is too bulky to travel with. the datahand is too space alien. the fingerworks..I need some feedback. the ultranav is, while sexy, still too cramped.
17:10 Juerd xinming: I'd have to look it up in the synopses. You can do that yourself. I find all this far from intuitive, and way too complex and customizable.
17:11 Juerd I want to create a desk chair one time.
17:11 Juerd That lets you have your arms vertical. It'll look silly.
17:11 obra heh. i spend too much time in cafes
17:11 xinming Juerd: the problem currently is... I've tried that, and pugs treat them the same.. :-/
17:12 xinming ?eval my $a = 123; my @b = q:w /$a/;
17:12 evalbot_12586 is now known as evalbot_12591
17:12 evalbot_12591 ["\$a",]
17:12 xinming ?eval my $a = 123; my @b = q:ww /$a/;
17:12 evalbot_12591 ["\$a",]
17:12 Juerd I often want things that I can perfectly describe, but they don't exist.
17:12 Juerd They're physically possible, and there'd probably be a market for them, but for some reason they don't exist.
17:12 * Alias_ nods
17:12 Juerd I don't have the means to create them, or to talk to people who could.
17:13 Juerd This is very frustrating.
17:13 cjeris obra: if you can tolerate a little key stiffness, look at a kinesis maxim for traveling? the stiffness was my only problem with mine
17:13 Alias_ The trouble is, having them custom made is expensive
17:13 Alias_ The only time I did that was with my skating gloves
17:13 obra I've thought about the maxim. stiffness: more or less than an IBM clicky?
17:13 cjeris never used an ibm clicky.  it's stiffer than the $2 made-in-taiwan you get with a new pc.  it loosens with wear.
17:13 Juerd Right now, I want a portable case with adjustable compartments for computer parts, that I can put in my car so that I always have the right parts with me.
17:14 Juerd A camera bag comes close.
17:14 Alias_ I have a great pair of inline skating leather gloves, but the leather on the palms was shit, so they wear out. Since nobody makes the gloves any more, I went to a ladies purse repair man and had him upgrade the gloves
17:14 bernhard joined perl6
17:14 Juerd But isn't large enough, and is too portably designed.
17:14 Alias_ They rock now, but they are VERY expensive gloves :)
17:14 Alias_ I guess there's just no market for a hundred dollar skating gloves :/
17:15 Juerd One of the biggest problems with the kinesis contoured is the stiffness, and that it uses cherry switches
17:15 obra Alias_ I bet that's not true
17:15 Juerd Who the hell, in ergonomics land, uses cherry switches! Maltron and Kinesis. But these switches SUCK! NO FEEDBACK!
17:15 obra oh. the switches on a kinesis don't bother me.
17:15 Juerd Yeah, a clicky speaker thingy.
17:15 Alias_ obra: Let me check
17:15 cjeris Juerd: feedback?
17:15 Juerd cjeris: feedback
17:15 obra Juerd: I've been very tempted to spend time with a HHK Pro
17:16 Juerd obra: Happy H
17:16 Juerd ?
17:16 cjeris i don't understand what you mean by feedback, i guess.
17:16 obra  yeah.
17:16 Juerd cjeris: A subtle feelable click.
17:16 Juerd obra: I find them annoying, feedback wise.
17:16 Alias_ obra: They go up to about $60, but they are really bulky and heavy aggressive skating gloves
17:16 Juerd I don't remember exactly why.
17:16 obra Juerd: the Pro or the regular one?
17:16 Juerd I don't remember
17:16 obra (The Pro has entirely different switches)
17:16 Juerd Oh, that's weird.
17:17 cjeris oh.  there's never been a click on any keyboard i've ever used :)
17:17 Juerd Hm - let's try the UltraX keyboard here
17:17 cjeris except a VT100 i typed on once a long time ago
17:17 c6rbon joined perl6
17:17 Juerd cjeris: I don't mean audible click.
17:17 obra http://www.pfu.fujitsu.com/en/hhkeyboard/leaflet/keyspec.html
17:17 cjeris no, i know what you mean.  like the click at the bottom of an ibm selectric buckling-spring type?
17:21 Juerd I'm now using the UltraX keyboard
17:21 Juerd My desk is too low :)
17:21 glasser left perl6
17:21 Juerd Or my chair to high.
17:21 Juerd Hm
17:21 Juerd This is better.
17:21 Juerd I have no idea if I could get used to this.
17:21 jferrero joined perl6
17:21 Juerd I'll give it a try for some time.
17:22 Juerd The kinesis is now in the storage closet again.
17:22 Juerd Hmm. I can mod this one to dvorak, probably
17:22 Juerd Let's see.
17:23 integral juerd++ # reminding me to change my desk height
17:24 Juerd nssssssssssssssvttttttttttttlt==tr==l//ssss[000000000000000000][eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeqyeeqqqqqqqqqqqa,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,qqqaaaaaaaaaaaaaa---------------------
17:24 Juerd z//--/////////////////////////////////-vwwwwzzzzzzzz
17:24 * [particle] thinks Juerd is writing perl 7
17:24 cjeris i can't ever get my keyboard low enough to have 90 degree elbows ... my arms are too long compared to my torso :(
17:24 Juerd ok il unfocus
17:31 TimToady openfoundry's http server appears to have pined for the fjords.
17:31 [particle] yes, audreyt noticed that earlier
17:31 [particle] the fjords are calling me, too...
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17:47 Alias_ obra: It appears I've had my robert's mixed up for a while then? Which robert is that robert, his link on noc.perl is useless
17:48 obra Robert Spier
17:50 Juerd This was by far the hardest keyboard to physically remap :)
17:51 Juerd I've even killed one key
17:51 Juerd (But sacrificed the windows key to fix it)
17:52 cjeris you mean you just rearranged all your keycaps?
17:52 Juerd Yes, but it's a laptop-ish keyboard
17:52 Juerd So that's hard :)
17:53 Juerd cjeris: That's what desks and chairs are for. You can't change your body, but you can change your furniture
17:53 Juerd Hm, with a lagged ssh, trying out a new keyboard is weird.
17:59 Alias_ ingy?
18:03 nothingmuch Alias_: thanks, btw.. i was a bit distracted and forgot that part ;-)
18:04 Alias_ which part?
18:04 Alias_ The getting primary in the first place part? :)
18:10 Juerd THIS KEYBOAD UCK
18:10 * Juerd thow the keyboad aay
18:11 zgh joined perl6
18:13 Juerd Ahhh, trusty keytronic.
18:14 Juerd All I need now is a wrist rest. But I can do without.
18:15 Juerd Oh, right. The right shift was broken on this one.
18:15 * Juerd starts to cry :)
18:18 xinming TimToady: what's doesn't the quote protection mean please?
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18:26 TimToady I saw the references in the backlog, but have no idea what you're referring to.
18:27 Limbic_Region xinming - you have some context for your question - URL or email msg-id or something - I have no clue either
18:28 TimToady okay, I see 'quote protection' in S02
18:28 TimToady that's Unix-shell-style quote protection.
18:29 TimToady <a 'b c' d> produces ("a", "'b", "c'", "d")
18:29 TimToady <<a 'b c' d>> produces ("a", "b c", "d")
18:31 TimToady it also means that <<$a '$b'>> interpolates $a but not $b
18:31 TimToady <<$a "$b">> interpolates both, but $a will be split into separate words while $b won't.
18:32 TimToady it's still to be decided exactly how "shellish" we want to get here.
18:33 TimToady since various shells have various idiosyncracies when it comes to interpolation and such
18:34 TimToady so <...> is basically q:w/.../ while <<..>> is qq:ww
18:35 _bernhard joined perl6
18:40 * zgh tries in pugs
18:40 zgh aw
18:40 zgh eval: <<a b "c d" e>>
18:40 buubot zgh: Error: Can't find string terminator " a" anywhere before EOF at eval line 1.
18:40 zgh eval: <a b "c d" e>
18:40 buubot zgh: Error: Can't locate Text/ParseWords.pm:  Too many open files at /usr/lib/perl/5.8/File/Glob.pm line 152.
18:40 zgh well it works better than that in pugs
18:40 TimToady ?eval <<a b "c d" e>>
18:40 evalbot_12591 ("a", "b", "\"c", "d\"", "e")
18:41 zgh thanks
18:41 TimToady not impl
18:41 zgh how do you use qq:ww?
18:41 zgh ?eval qq:ww/a b c/
18:41 evalbot_12591 ("a", "b", "c")
18:41 zgh ah
18:41 zgh neat
18:41 * zgh goes back to playing with pugs
18:42 TimToady <<...>> is merely a pretty version of qq:ww/.../
18:42 TimToady just as <...> is a pretty version of qw/.../
18:42 zgh qq:ww doesn't work in pugs yet either with regards to shell quoting
18:42 zgh oh well
18:42 xinming TimToady: thanks for your explanation,  then, I'll leave this in the test first.
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18:54 weinig is now known as weinig|away
18:56 Limbic_Region is the repo down?
18:56 [particle] yes
18:58 prefiks joined perl6
18:58 Limbic_Region thanks
19:08 _bernhard joined perl6
19:15 ingy last ingy
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20:02 Limbic_Region fglock ping
20:03 fglock pong
20:04 Limbic_Region I just tried to install v6 from CPAN
20:05 Limbic_Region many many many failures in the test suite - seem similar to the ones reported by CPAN testers on linux despite myself being on Win32
20:05 Limbic_Region are you aware of these or would you like a test output sent to you?
20:07 fglock Limbic_Region: I've seen the failures - I'll check with clkao to see how he controls the MANIFEST (only passing tests should enter the MANIFEST)
20:07 zgh do you need a specific perl to use v6?
20:07 Limbic_Region that's what I suspected - or else the failing ones should be flagged as todo
20:07 zgh i thought mine was too old
20:07 fglock Limbic_Region: I think it is part of the smoking process
20:08 Limbic_Region think what is part of the smoking process?
20:08 fglock zgh: not sure - how old?
20:08 fglock Limbic_Region: the tests that pass the smoke enter the MANIFEST list and get published
20:09 zgh 5.8.7, on x86_64
20:09 zgh it's the default for ubuntu I think
20:09 fglock zgh: that should work
20:09 zgh fglock: thanks I'll try again later
20:10 Limbic_Region ahh - well, force install then?
20:12 fglock Limbic_Region: yes
20:13 Limbic_Region k
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21:34 TreyHarris is there a problem with svn?
21:34 beppu ?eval %ENV<USER>
21:34 evalbot_12591 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
21:34 TreyHarris http://svn.openfoundry.org/
21:34 [particle] it's down
21:34 beppu ?eval say %ENV<USER>
21:34 evalbot_12591 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
21:34 TreyHarris ?eval $+USER
21:34 evalbot_12591 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
21:34 beppu tf?
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21:35 TreyHarris ?eval say $+USER
21:35 evalbot_12591 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
21:35 beppu ?eval say 'wtf?'
21:35 evalbot_12591 OUTPUT[wtf? ] Bool::True
21:35 TreyHarris ?eval say $?PUGS_VERSION
21:35 evalbot_12591 OUTPUT[Perl6 User's Golfing System, version 6.2.12, June 26, 2006 (r12591) ] Bool::True
21:35 markstos ?eval class Super { method foo { $?CLASS; } }; class Kid is Super  {}; say Kid.new.foo;
21:35 evalbot_12591 OUTPUT[Super ] Bool::True
21:35 beppu ?eval %ENV.keys.sort.map:{ "$_=%ENV<$_>\n" }.say;
21:35 evalbot_12591 OUTPUT[ ] Bool::True
21:35 TreyHarris beppu: looks like environment variables are hosed
21:36 beppu I was actually wondering why my map statement wasn't doing what I thought it should be doing.
21:36 TreyHarris beppu: this is new, my r12537 is fine
21:36 markstos I want to get the current class back. But $?CLASS doesn't do that in my example-- it returns the parent class, where $?CLASS is defined. Is there a way to get the class that's currently being executed, versus one were $?CLASS is defined.
21:37 beppu TreyHarris: on your pugs, do you get a bunch of "key=value" pairs printed when you run the last ?eval I did?
21:37 TimToady ?eval %ENV.keys.sort.map:{ say "$_=%ENV<$_>" }
21:37 beppu I'm getting "key=" with no value.
21:37 evalbot_12591 ()
21:38 markstos beppu, I have r12583 and I get keys with no values.
21:38 beppu Am I doing something wrong or is it pugs?
21:38 TreyHarris yes.  "CLICOLOR=\nCOLUMNS=\n".  but no values, just keys
21:39 beppu advice?
21:39 markstos ?eval  say %ENV.perl;
21:39 evalbot_12591 OUTPUT[\undef ] Bool::True
21:39 TimToady ?eval say %*ENV.perl
21:39 evalbot_12591 OUTPUT[\undef ] Bool::True
21:39 TreyHarris ?eval %ENV.sort.map:{ "$_.key()=$_.value()}\n" }.say;
21:39 markstos beppu: try say %ENV.perl on your machine. That works for me.
21:39 evalbot_12591 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&key"
21:40 TreyHarris beppu: the above works on my pugs
21:40 markstos It shows the values.
21:40 TimToady might be not considered "safe" by evalbot
21:40 TreyHarris sort on a hash sorts by key
21:41 beppu %ENV.perl doesn't work for me.  :(
21:41 TimToady works here
21:42 beppu time to recompile pugs, perhaps
21:42 TimToady though theoretically it should have to be %*ENV
21:42 TimToady unless you've imported it into your namespace
21:42 markstos I now the meta model work is still in process, but is there currently a way to get the current class?  I'm looking for something like "say self" would return, but without the extra <Obj:foo> decoration.
21:42 TreyHarris beppu: for sort %*ENV.kv -> $var, $val { say "$var=$val"}
21:43 TimToady which do you mean by "current class"?
21:43 TimToady lexically, or self's actual?
21:43 markstos uh, self's actual ?
21:43 beppu the for loop works.  thanks Trey
21:43 markstos Even if code is stored in the parent, I want the child's name to be returned.
21:44 TreyHarris beppu: ummm... not so sure actually....
21:44 TimToady TreyHarris: that can't possible be correct
21:44 TimToady *possibly
21:44 beppu oh wait...  ;)
21:44 TimToady it would sort the keys independently of the values
21:45 TreyHarris yes, it does
21:46 beppu I took out the sort, but it looks like it comes back to me in sorted order, anyway.
21:46 beppu (and the keys and values match up this time .  ;)
21:47 TimToady .kv will come out in the right pairings but as separate list items
21:47 PerlJam beppu: don't rely on implementation accidents :)
21:47 beppu ;)
21:48 beppu Is the .perl method like a built-in Data::Dumper ?
21:48 TreyHarris it's odd: %*ENV.sort:{$^b cmp $^a} gives me a good reverse-ordered list of lists (not pairs), but %*ENV.pairs.sort:{$^b.key cmp $^a.key} gives me "No compatible subroutine found: "&key""
21:49 TimToady markstos: that'll be whatever we rename .ref to, I suspect
21:49 beppu %ENV.perl was working for me...  silly me forgot to actually `say` it.
21:49 markstos beppu: Yes, like D::D.
21:50 TreyHarris it looks like '.key' is not defined for ::Pair::HashSlice
21:50 TreyHarris which seems quite odd.
21:50 TimToady I've just been dithering about which interrogative pronouns to attach to which metainfo.
21:51 markstos TimToday: "self.ref" works today-- I'm happy. Thanks. I can find/replace later. :)
21:51 beppu I'm curious about why: %ENV.keys.sort.map:{ "$_=%ENV<$_>\n" }.say;    doesn't work
21:51 TimToady if it's something checked into pugs, I'll fix it myself when I make up my mind.
21:52 markstos I would have guessed something like "self.string", or "self.name".
21:53 markstos TimToady: CGI::App p6 isn't in the pugs SVN repo yet. I'm attached to using darcs at the moment, but I may import it one day yet, and live with svn or svk.
21:53 TreyHarris beppu: something funky is going on, because %*ENV.keys.sort.map:{ "::$^a::" } is not interpolating $^a.  or $_.
21:53 TreyHarris i'll write a test as soon as openfoundry is back up
21:53 TimToady it'll probably be self.what or self.WHAT, or maybe who.  But who might be the new name for .SKID
21:53 beppu TreyHarris: thanks, man.
21:53 TimToady would make a great skit about a baseball team...
21:54 markstos :)
21:54 markstos self.meta.class_name seems straight forward, but maybe too long.
21:54 TimToady independent of that is whether these are all submethods of .META, or if .META should be renamed to .HOW
21:55 markstos meta does evoke introspection for me, which seems appropriate.
21:55 markstos HOW doesn't do that for me. It evokes a Native American greeting...
21:55 TimToady and it's likely that a .what or .who would really mean .META.what or .MEAT.who anyway.
21:56 TreyHarris TimToady: tracking this down... is it possible that superclass dispatch does not happen in classes implemented in Haskell?
21:56 TimToady s/AT/TA/
21:56 Alias_ TimToady: Can you play Real movies?
21:56 markstos ah, just shorthands.
21:56 TimToady just as .does is short for .META.does
21:56 TimToady or .^does
21:57 TimToady Alias_: I could probably figure out how to play one.
21:57 Alias_ http://abc.net.au/science/broadband/catalyst/ram/choice_hi.ram
21:57 Alias_ Some interesting stuff for software design types on how many More Ways To Do It there should be :)
21:58 Alias_ Although only at a basic level, not very hardcore
21:58 TimToady okay, thanks, but my wife is napping right now so I'd better wait.
21:58 Alias_ More of a stepping off point
21:58 Alias_ sure, not urgent, it's back of the brain stuff
21:58 TimToady thanks
21:59 obra  *snicker*
22:02 TreyHarris yes, key and val are not implimented for Pain::HashSlice.  is there any reason I shouldn't just implement it?  i'm wondering if there's some deep reason it's unimplemented that i'm just not getting, or if it's just an oversight.
22:02 TreyHarris s/Pain/Pair
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22:28 Juerd Hmmm
22:28 Juerd Can we still change the internal representation of text strings?
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23:51 TreyHarris ?eval my %a = %(zip('a'..'z';1..26)); my @p = %a.pairs; @p[0].key
23:51 evalbot_12591 "a"
23:52 TreyHarris ?eval my %a = %(zip('a'..'z';1..26)); my @p = %a.pairs; @p[0].value
23:52 evalbot_12591 \1

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