Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-08-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:02 rgs_ joined perl6
00:05 justatheory joined perl6
00:07 diakopter seen Alias_
00:07 Alias_ yeah
00:09 diakopter i saw your use.perl.org post about cpan
00:09 diakopter i haven't watched the video you linked yet
00:09 diakopter but I had some ideas to suggest
00:10 Alias_ shoot
00:10 Alias_ Although doing it in the comment would help, so others can see
00:10 Alias_ instead/as well as here
00:11 diakopter true.
00:11 diakopter here, then there.
00:12 diakopter java has the Java Class Library
00:12 diakopter MSIL has the Base Class Library
00:12 Alias_ I actually think that's a fundamentally flawed method
00:13 diakopter explain?
00:13 Alias_ How many times have you had to port all your programs because Perl released a new version and all the modules changed
00:13 Alias_ The most common answer is "never"
00:14 Alias_ or "not since Perl 5"
00:14 Alias_ I spend time with Java programmers, and half the conversation seems to be about porting from J2EE X to J2EE Y and so on
00:15 Alias_ Also, it requires that you plan ahead on the major APIs, with committees and such
00:15 diakopter how is that an artifact of perl not having an officially blessed set of modules
00:15 Alias_ And then hope you pick right
00:16 Alias_ Perhaps I'm reading your comment wrong
00:16 Alias_ Your suggestion was a raw statement of fact, without any assertion or suggestion
00:16 diakopter hee; I didn't make a suggestion actually
00:16 Alias_ Try restarting with your actual suggestion
00:16 zgh the lack of central design means that many different people produce numerous solutions, then the best one can rise to teh top rather than being prefected ahead oftime
00:16 zgh that's the great thing about CPAN
00:17 Alias_ Plus. Java has money behind it
00:17 diakopter right, but that relies on random choice
00:17 Alias_ random?
00:17 zgh natural selection is not random
00:17 Alias_ It relies on non-random choice actually
00:17 diakopter no one fully researches all the possible implementation choices before choosing one
00:17 diakopter and all their pros and cons
00:17 zgh no but they get suggestion on #perl
00:18 Alias_ They will if there's only 2 or 3
00:18 diakopter if they did so, they would have been able to write their own in shorter time
00:18 diakopter their own amalgamation, perhaps.
00:18 Alias_ For most subjects, CPAN has between 1 and 3 choices
00:18 zgh not EVERYONE needs to do that, jst like not EVERYONE needs to hack source of OSS to be successful
00:18 zgh er s/of/for/
00:18 Alias_ It's a few very specific areas that attract modules like honey
00:18 Alias_ Config files, OO abstractions, templates, MVC web frameworks
00:19 Alias_ Roman numerals are something of an unusual exception to that
00:19 Alias_ Unless there's something sexy about the field of roman numberals I don't know about
00:19 diakopter earlier, sorry for prefacing my suggestion with some lead-in
00:19 zgh in the words of audreyt, "CPAN is the language, Perl is the syntax."
00:20 Alias_ The other effect we see is that someone uploads shit, but then nobody else would have upload code that does the math to solve optimimal naval prop shaft design
00:20 Alias_ optimal
00:20 Alias_ And then as people use it, they send feedback and patches and such
00:20 Alias_ And what was originally shit, becomes not bad, and then decent, and then good
00:20 diakopter yeah.
00:21 Alias_ unless it has a terrible API, which you can't really recover from
00:21 Alias_ So the modules@ list often asks people to go talk to the existing authors
00:21 zgh Alias_: can you post the URL to your referenced blog post?
00:21 Alias_ I did it today in fact
00:21 diakopter the problem is, the patch submission and bug reporting and rating systems for many modules are absolutely terrible.
00:21 diakopter oops, scratch that "the problem is,"
00:21 Alias_ the patch submission and bug reporting and rating systems are identical for all modules
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00:21 Alias_ Thanks the gods
00:22 diakopter I mean, many of the maintainers don't reply to patches or bug reports, and probably most users don't submit them
00:22 Alias_ http://use.perl.org/~Alias/journal/30724
00:22 lambdabot Title: Journal of Alias (5735)
00:22 zgh Alias_: thx
00:22 Alias_ diakopter: If the maintainers don't reply, then you just apply to take over maintainership
00:22 Alias_ And we (the modules@ pause admins) give you co-maint
00:23 zgh diakopter: this is an old "problem" that free/open source handles very well
00:23 zgh not everyone needs to participate at that level for it to work
00:23 Alias_ zgh: And CPAN better than most
00:23 Alias_ diakopter: Any modules you'd like to take over?
00:23 diakopter zgh: that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement, even in cpan
00:23 zgh Alias_: agreed
00:23 zgh diakopter: too true, there always is
00:24 zgh but I tink CPAN is the most successful project of its type
00:24 zgh if you can call it "a project"
00:24 Alias_ CPAN has almost no major problems
00:24 Alias_ And it's quite unique in that regard
00:24 Alias_ Not at large scales anyway
00:24 Alias_ It has the usual supply of bugs and smaller issues that need fixing
00:24 zgh CPAN really is much more than a library archive at this point. It's just important to perl as the language itself.
00:24 diakopter that statement could be myopic, several-many years from now
00:25 zgh diakopter: which statement?
00:25 Alias_ diakopter: Good thing I keep up with the times :)
00:25 diakopter "CPAN has almost no major problems"
00:25 diakopter what are the exceptions (the major problems)
00:25 zgh diakopter: well what are you worried about specifically?
00:26 Alias_ CPAN Testers is a problem, it's dead largely
00:26 Alias_ And there's some rippling waves of QA issues as a result
00:26 diakopter any others that you're willing to mention here :)
00:26 * Alias_ ponders
00:27 * zgh read the post.
00:27 zgh Worying about too many choices misses the point.
00:27 zgh there's already python
00:27 Alias_ I have a few lingering concerns about metadata
00:28 diakopter I personally am not worried about too many choices, too much.
00:28 zgh developers should take responsibility for researching what meets their needs.
00:29 zgh python has a BDFL that likes to pick the "official" implementation of everything
00:29 zgh i hear he tapped django as the official web framework
00:29 Alias_ yeah
00:29 diakopter Alias_: more on the metadata concerns?
00:29 zgh sucks for devs of different frameworks that might work better in some cases
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00:29 Alias_ diakopter: I am concerned the metadata is being specified by one subgroup without sufficient consultation
00:30 xerox_ joined perl6
00:30 Alias_ I have a few general installation toolchain interoperability concerns as well
00:31 Alias_ But those are being fixed, so from the large viewpoint it's solved
00:31 Alias_ But everything else looks ok for the next doubling at least
00:31 Alias_ i.e. To 20,000 modules
00:32 Alias_ After 20,000 modules I think we're going to maybe outgrow RT
00:32 diakopter i thought best practical was reimplementing RT in jifty?
00:32 Alias_ But we have about a 2 to 2.5 year lead time on that problem
00:32 Alias_ That would be nice
00:33 Alias_ I think more that the design might start hitting limits
00:33 Alias_ Hard to explain without deep understanding of the nature of the growth
00:33 Alias_ And it's at least 50% gut instinct
00:34 Alias_ CPAN Testers didn't reach a single critical point either, but 10,000 about where it's scaling limit was
00:34 diakopter who was it that was spec'ing that massive scale testing system
00:35 Alias_ me, actually
00:35 diakopter ah
00:35 Alias_ But as for the rest, transport is fine, the client situation is mostly ok, governence is ok, search and reputation is ok
00:35 Alias_ Windows is looking much better
00:35 zgh glad to see people asking the hard questions about CPAN
00:35 Alias_ downstream could be better, but it's hard to know how to fix that
00:36 Alias_ I'm sort of hoping metadata makes downstream better...
00:36 diakopter who was it that was mentioning cpanp and its future
00:36 Alias_ kane
00:36 Alias_ Who wrote it
00:36 Alias_ (probably)
00:37 diakopter here's a hypothetical for you.  feel free to shoot it down, but i'll keep going with it as long as I can still answer most of the hard questions
00:39 diakopter hmm; more difficult to verbalize that I thought.
00:41 diakopter anyway, sorry to be so far offtopic
00:41 diakopter i'll continue when I gather my thoughts
00:41 zgh CPAN is more topical than ever
00:42 Alias_ CPAN is always topical
00:42 Alias_ And yeah, things coming to a crunch for perl 6 too
00:45 Alias_ oh, one major problem, although less important than QA, is UI design
00:45 Alias_ Which hasn't been high enough priority on anyone's list to target
00:45 Alias_ Our design is fragmented and largely sucks
00:46 Alias_ I doubt we can unify things, but a general refresh would be nice
00:46 Alias_ We don't control the user entry points particularly well atm
00:46 diakopter here's a open question that I won't be offended if no one answers seriously
00:47 diakopter in what markets does perl have the largest room for growth/incursion
00:47 diakopter s/the largest/any/
00:48 Alias_ Light Business Desktop
00:49 Alias_ Prebuilt web apps
00:49 diakopter your choices for markets to discuss could include such spaces as company size, development/deployment platform, decision-maker role, etc.
00:50 diakopter personally, I think trying to attract *more* developers directly is a total lost cause
00:50 Alias_ I don't think we've done that for ages
00:51 diakopter most people who call themselves developers don't (didn't?) have much choice in what language/environment they use
00:51 diakopter alright, I'm just trying to think about all the options
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00:51 diakopter sorry to think extraneously
00:51 diakopter heh
00:51 Alias_ I think the biggest one is that we're on the edge of being a VB replacement
00:52 Alias_ Something to write all those incidental business desktop applications in
00:52 diakopter technically, perhaps.  try selling that to more than 3% of system architects
00:52 Alias_ "selling"?
00:52 Alias_ We aren't in the business of selling anything
00:53 Alias_ Just like with the biotech stuff, one day you wake up and everything's written in Perl
00:53 Alias_ And CGI
00:53 diakopter yeah, during times of explosive segment growth.
00:53 Alias_ certainly
00:53 Alias_ We adapt fast
00:54 diakopter I think it would be folly for the perl community to fail to market/position its product and its selling points appropriately
00:54 Alias_ We don't market of position anything
00:54 Alias_ or
00:54 Alias_ I'm only commenting on areas in which I see the potential for explosive growth
00:54 diakopter which areas are those
00:55 Alias_ The desktop one is a case of a number of factors all starting to come together at the same time
00:55 diakopter yes; there's a large saddle point here with the release/demise of Vista
00:55 diakopter potentially.
00:55 Alias_ It's nothing to do with that, although I just tested Vanilla 7 on Vista and it works fine
00:56 diakopter which factors are you talking about then wrt the desktop
00:56 Alias_ It's that a few particular technical areas required for Windows are starting to move from kinda solved, to competantly solved
00:56 diakopter oh, you're talking about perl on windows.
00:56 Alias_ Firstly, Perl + Windows is going through a revitalisation as we finally escape from ActiveState
00:57 Alias_ That was a sticking point for a long time
00:57 Alias_ Secondly, PAR is starting to mature
00:57 diakopter i thought you were referring to perl as a development platform for desktop apps on top of linux
00:57 Alias_ Thirdly, Wx and SQLite are becoming stable
00:57 Alias_ Perl as a development platform on the desktop, regardless of operating system
00:58 diakopter ok
00:58 Alias_ As in, you can install desktop applications from CPAN that work on Windows, and Mac, and Linux
00:58 Alias_ We're not there yet, but we're at about early beta of that concept
00:59 zgh Alias_: you got me really excited for a second.... I want desktops apps directly from CPAN!
00:59 Alias_ Throw in PAR to make packing and isntallation cleaner, and SQLite as a sane bundled database, add the talk-to-anything power of CPAN, and you have something interesting
00:59 diakopter most markets are made.  it's very rare that market leaders emerge in markets such as biotech and cgi scripts without intensive planning/marketing.
00:59 Alias_ zgh: App::GUI::Notepad!
00:59 Alias_ zgh: It works right now on all three
00:59 * zgh scrambles to try it
01:00 diakopter my point is that perl might grow for a while, but without careful positioning, its growth rate will be limited.
01:00 Alias_ That's fine
01:00 diakopter in other words, with some effort, growth could be improved.
01:00 Alias_ I'm perfectly happy with Perl occupying it's natural market share, and not overstretching itself
01:01 diakopter right, b/c you have a job in it (as do I)
01:01 Alias_ I own a company actually that does consulting
01:01 diakopter same
01:01 Alias_ So if everything was Perl I'd make a lot more than I do now
01:01 diakopter same effect, I mean
01:01 Alias_ But then I'm not in a hurry to do that
01:01 Alias_ You don't guide and position Perl very much
01:02 Alias_ It's more like gardenning
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01:02 diakopter it ought to be more like biowarfare
01:02 Alias_ You just sort of encourage it here, and prune it there, and it grows out in every direction regardless
01:03 diakopter that kind of growth is nice, but better facilitation/management of growth might be better for the long term.
01:03 Alias_ And what is biowarfare like? Something incredibly expensive and dangerous that everybody does, but nobody uses?
01:03 diakopter or so I'm proposing
01:03 diakopter such as?
01:03 Alias_ How would you propose managing growth?
01:03 Alias_ That didn't involve scaring people off by telling them what to do
01:04 diakopter i'm not ready to make very concrete suggestions yet; i'm still in the talking out loud phase :)
01:04 Alias_ ah
01:04 Alias_ One can manage growth, generally by doing nothing
01:04 diakopter i have some ideas, but their plausibility levels wax and wane
01:04 Alias_ When Perl::Critic started despite the fact I had a fledgling equivalent, I just shut the hell up and got out the way
01:04 diakopter err; feasibility.
01:05 Alias_ And Perl::Critic has gone far further by me not "managing" it and scaring off the owners
01:05 Alias_ They have the control they want, I help when it's needed, and everybody wins
01:06 Alias_ Making people work for you when you don't pay them is hard
01:06 Alias_ Managing people that work for you that you don't pay is harder
01:06 Alias_ Generally, the only way I know how to do it is by making them work for you without even realising it
01:07 Alias_ i.e. Where in normal business you can have Minions, in Perl you need primarily Unsuspecting Minions
01:07 Alias_ There's very little in the way of active business-style management
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01:07 diakopter agents on a need-to-know basis
01:07 Alias_ Except occasionally to stamp out bad ideas before they spread
01:08 Alias_ Like I said, it's a bit like gardenning
01:08 diakopter pugs is a bit like biowarfare.
01:08 Alias_ Perl on the Desktop will happen... we're currently at Notepad sophistication, but that's improving on it's own just fine
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01:10 diakopter brb; my lap-heater is about out of juice
01:14 diakopter anyway.
01:14 mjk how to from ....> return to pugs>
01:15 mjk can help me?
01:15 diakopter mjk: what do you need
01:15 diakopter oh
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01:18 mjk i'm learning pugs in command line, but when i input a error command(for example, print  jfklsdj ";), pugs displays ....>
01:18 mjk i can't return pugs> status
01:18 mjk and can't input other perl statements
01:19 mjk how to return pugs>
01:19 diakopter Ctrl-Z will leave pugs
01:19 diakopter at least in my terminal
01:19 Alias_ left perl6
01:19 mjk thanks , but no method to return pugs>
01:20 diakopter well, in the case of your example,
01:20 diakopter ";
01:24 zgh diakopter: Ctrl-D in unix will leave pugs
01:24 zgh diakopter: not that you were asking that :-)
01:25 diakopter zgh: care to continue re: cpan?
01:25 mjk i see
01:25 mjk thanks
01:26 zgh CPAN is the language, Perl is the syntax!
01:26 * zgh cheers.
01:50 svnbot6 r12592 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed the 'rule' declaration;
01:50 svnbot6 r12592 | fglock++ | - fixed a bug in the rule "metasyntax" parser;
01:50 svnbot6 r12592 | fglock++ | - fixed $/, $()
01:51 svnbot6 r12592 | fglock++ | - implemented syntax:<categories> in the parser
01:51 svnbot6 r12592 | fglock++ | - new class Pugs::Grammar::P6Term - implements the 'term' syntax category in pure p6
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01:55 markstos Here's a perhaps simple pugs bug: pugs -I seems to work like perl5, but is not listed in "pugs -h". It seems like a useful addition there.
02:03 markstos Where I do I look to debug when there is a failure in the prelude? 'No compatible subroutine found: "&CGI::Application::import" at <prelude> line 63'
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02:08 markstos is now known as stosbma
02:09 stosbma markstos: try removing "use_ok()" from your test
02:09 stosbma is now known as markstos
02:09 markstos That did it! Thanks, stosbma!
02:47 markstos Pugs Test.pm has some interesting  output. Notice only two test scripts actually passed, but the ultimate conclusion is that things were "166.67%" OK! (before I fixed some tests, things were 300% Okay...)
02:47 markstos Failed 11/13 test scripts, 15.38% okay. -6/9 subtests failed, 166.67% okay.
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03:45 svnbot6 r12593 | clkao++ | v6 - Fix if/elsif/else.
03:53 mako132_ joined perl6
03:54 svnbot6 r12594 | audreyt++ | * smartlinks.pl: Implement markstos++'s suggestion
03:54 svnbot6 r12594 | audreyt++ |   to hide the filesystem-specific realpath in the
03:54 svnbot6 r12594 | audreyt++ |   filename it displays.
03:57 svnbot6 r12595 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Help: markstos++ suggests -Ipath should be documented
03:57 svnbot6 r12595 | audreyt++ |   as part of "pugs -h".
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04:28 xinming hmm, I'm really sorry for what I've done, I tried 'svk push', And It seems It pushed some old files to the mirror.
04:28 xinming I hope anyone who can revert this for me, as now, I don't know what to do... :-/
04:29 xinming hmm, It's likely some files from fglock.
04:32 Khisanth grab old version and recommit?
04:33 PerlJam stop using svk?
04:34 xinming PerlJam: ???
04:34 PerlJam just jumping to the more radical "solution"  :)
04:34 xinming Khisanth: I ever tried with my local svn server, But It seems, if you revert it, svk won't show the difference.
04:35 xinming PerlJam: I wrote the test, and when I try to push it back, It seems there are many g while I push,
04:35 xinming and luckily, when I saw many empty merge, I pressed C-c
04:35 xinming :-P
04:35 Khisanth I was thinking something like svn cat -roldrev foo > foo; svn ci foo
04:35 xinming but my real content isn't pushed in.
04:36 xinming I think I should check-out using svn and commit.
04:37 audreyt xinming: no, there's no old files
04:37 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ | * More third-party/ cleanup:
04:37 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ |     System.FilePath is moved into third-party/
04:37 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ |     and upgraded to use Neil Mitchell's maintained branch.
04:37 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ |     Pugs.Rule.* is no more, as we are no longer forking Parsec.
04:37 audreyt the merges were just svnprops
04:37 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ |     (Four more cleanups to go before we complete the
04:37 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ |      third-party/ move as suggested by allison++.)
04:38 obra audreyt: my modinstall mirror is out of date. if schwern sent you an autoinstall patch, could you apply?
04:38 audreyt xinming: try "svk push -l" maybe?
04:38 audreyt obra: I don't deal in patches... he is a modinstall committer
04:39 obra Thanks. I wasn't an admin, so I couldn't make that happen
04:39 audreyt now you are, too
04:39 obra woot
04:39 xinming audreyt: when I'm in rev 12595, I push it, there are many empty merge to the svn server. :-/ I really don't know if the test is commited.
04:40 audreyt xinming: it wasn't... can you try "svk push -l"?
04:40 xinming audreyt: Ok.
04:41 * audreyt just woke up... need to go 1)find food 2)vote for haskell-prime features and 3)return ti IRC
04:41 PerlJam xinming: wait, you stopped the merge process when you saw an empty merge?  Just let it continue.  All "svk push -l" is going to do is not show you the empty merges :-)
04:41 svnbot6 r12599 | yiyihu++ |  r12615@Laptop:  xinming | 2006-08-23 12:20:52 +0800
04:41 svnbot6 r12599 | yiyihu++ |  Added a test for quote operators.
04:41 svnbot6 r12599 | yiyihu++ |  Just basic test suite, with single adverb. (q:c q:h q:b etc...)
04:41 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ | * More third-party/ cleanup:
04:41 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ |     System.FilePath is moved into third-party/
04:41 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ |     and upgraded to use Neil Mitchell's maintained branch.
04:41 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ |     Pugs.Rule.* is no more, as we are no longer forking Parsec.
04:41 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ |     (Four more cleanups to go before we complete the
04:41 svnbot6 r12598 | audreyt++ |      third-party/ move as suggested by allison++.)
04:41 audreyt PerlJam: peace of mind is kinda important :)
04:42 xinming PerlJam: thanks.
04:42 PerlJam audreyt: yeah, it did freak me out the first time I tried to "svk push" some smallish thing and got a ton of empty merges out of it.
04:42 PerlJam (even though I "svk pull" all the time)
04:43 audreyt it's an UI issue, indeed
04:43 audreyt the current output lvel of svk is something I'd expect --verbose to do
04:43 audreyt it's one of the noisest SCMs around :)
04:43 xinming but the problem is, svk push is already commited something empty to the server.
04:44 PerlJam xinming: not a problem.
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04:44 audreyt xinming: yes, but that's fine
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05:52 nothingmuch gaal: it looks like a deriviative of your utf8 patch for DBD::mysql has been applied: http://search.cpan.org/src/CAPTT​OFU/DBD-mysql-3.0006_1/ChangeLog, http://rt.cpan.org/Public/​Bug/Display.html?id=17829
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06:28 gaal nothingmuch: ah, excellent.
06:29 nothingmuch gaal++
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06:45 beppu Has anyone used perl5 DBI from within pugs successfully?
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07:04 svnbot6 r12600 | agentz++ | [docs/feather/index.html]
07:04 svnbot6 r12600 | agentz++ | - added some more FAQs to feather's homepage at the request of Juerd.
07:05 agentzh Juerd: will add more stuff to the page some time later. :)
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07:16 svnbot6 r12601 | agentz++ | [docs/feather/index.html]
07:16 svnbot6 r12601 | agentz++ | - changed the style sheet to search.cpan.org's.
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07:35 agentzh where should i put the index.html in the Pugs repos for ~agentzh/syn/?
07:35 agentzh i think i'd better make it editable by others. :)
07:35 agentzh how about util/syn_index.html?
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07:40 svnbot6 r12602 | agentz++ | [docs/feather/index.html]
07:40 svnbot6 r12602 | agentz++ | - added notes for the pscp utility.
07:43 Juerd agentzh: Thanks
07:43 svnbot6 r12603 | audreyt++ | * fix filepath cabal file
07:43 agentzh Juerd: :)
07:44 Juerd Hm, my checkout refuses to upgrade
07:45 Juerd 2;0 juerd@feather:~/feather$ svk up
07:45 Juerd path /home/juerd/feather is not a checkout path.
07:45 Juerd It certainly was...
07:46 Juerd I'll do this later then
07:50 wolverian did you remove your ~/.svk ? :)
07:52 svnbot6 r12604 | audreyt++ | * oops, forgot to add System.Path.
07:53 Juerd wolverian: Never on purpose...
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08:39 svnbot6 r12605 | agentz++ | [docs/Perl6/Spec/Functions.pod]
08:39 svnbot6 r12605 | agentz++ | - adjusted the title format to conform with other synopses.
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08:47 wolverian should zip still return a list of lists? maybe a list of captures instead?
08:48 audreyt how is that possible?
08:48 wolverian I don't know :)
08:49 wolverian I suppose that means I need to read on captures before assuming things..
08:50 audreyt yeah :)
08:51 svnbot6 r12606 | bsmith++ | Add directory and --recurse support to prove6, just like prove.
08:59 agentzh http://feather.perl6.nl/~agentzh/syn/
08:59 lambdabot Title: Index of /~agentzh/syn
08:59 svnbot6 r12607 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
08:59 svnbot6 r12607 | agentz++ | - replaced the "TITLE" dumb word at the first line in
08:59 svnbot6 r12607 | agentz++ |   the HTML template with "Sxx".
08:59 agentzh we now have an index page.
08:59 agentzh :)
08:59 wolverian yay :)
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09:06 agentzh supper &
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10:00 meppl guten morgen
10:01 Patterner aloha
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10:03 buetow joined perl6
10:12 meppl good morning patterner
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11:06 agentzh Juerd: oh, the feather homepage is not synced every 5 minutes like what it says. sigh.
11:07 * agentzh tries to find something to do.
11:16 Juerd agentzh: Indeed. My svk checkout is no longer acknowledged as an svk checkout, by svk.
11:16 Juerd Also, people have added things in that directory - as root.
11:16 agentzh Juerd: how about using ~audreyt/pugs?
11:16 Juerd So I have to investigate if I can move those things, or change the permissions, before I re-checkout.
11:16 agentzh her working copy is constantly updated by evalbot.
11:16 Juerd Haven't had time yet.
11:17 Juerd I'll look into this later
11:17 agentzh okay. :)
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11:24 svnbot6 r12608 | audreyt++ | * p6doc: Make it slightly more useful by allowing "p6doc s03"
11:24 svnbot6 r12608 | audreyt++ |   as synonym to "p6doc Spec::Operator".  Still need a lot of
11:24 svnbot6 r12608 | audreyt++ |   usability work before this can be released to CPAN to replace
11:24 svnbot6 r12608 | audreyt++ |   Perl6::Bible.
11:26 audreyt my laptop was damaged after all; now whenever it's moved or tilted too much, it reboots (and reboots, and reboots)
11:26 svnbot6 r12609 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
11:26 svnbot6 r12609 | agentz++ | - removed <hr /> from the resulting HTML. so there's no "oddly big dividers" reported by wolverian++
11:26 audreyt very annoying, psychologically :/
11:26 audreyt plan to turn it in for repair tomorrow or the day after
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11:27 audreyt but meanwhile I'm setting up workspace in my old laptop, so will afk for a while...
11:27 agentzh audreyt: simply throw that away. :)
11:27 audreyt I'd do that if it's clearly broken
11:27 audreyt but it appeared fine until I moved it...
11:27 agentzh hehe
11:27 audreyt but yeah.
11:28 agentzh audreyt: is there anyone working on webpugs?
11:28 audreyt no... would be lovely if you can look into it
11:28 agentzh audreyt: will have a try later. :)
11:28 audreyt another worthwhile task is make p6doc releasablle
11:28 audreyt ooh. agentzh++
11:29 agentzh :)
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11:42 avarab is now known as avar
11:42 * agentzh wonders if some kind person has fixed Pod::Html installed on feather since the HTML outputs there are sexier than his own.
12:02 svnbot6 r12610 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
12:02 svnbot6 r12610 | agentz++ | - added left margin to the code snippets. this is
12:02 svnbot6 r12610 | agentz++ |   indeed a long-overdue feature. :)
12:14 svnbot6 r12611 | agentz++ | [docs/feather]
12:14 svnbot6 r12611 | agentz++ | - added the ``syn'' subdir and syn/index.html which is
12:14 svnbot6 r12611 | agentz++ |   the index page for http://feather.perl6.nl/~agentzh/syn
12:14 lambdabot Title: Index of /~agentzh/syn
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12:16 agentzh not sure if i could access http://feather.perl.nl/syn/ once Juerd fixed his svk problem. :)
12:16 agentzh *perl6
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12:19 Juerd agentzh: If you want, I can give you root access.
12:20 Juerd You appear to have more time available than I do
12:20 agentzh Juerd: that'll be cool. :)
12:21 Juerd agentzh: You may now execute commands as root by prefixing "sudo"
12:21 agentzh i have plenty of time recently since i'm in my summer vocation. ;-)
12:21 Juerd agentzh: Use it wisely.
12:22 agentzh Juerd: thanks!
12:22 agentzh I will.
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12:40 svnbot6 r12612 | agentz++ | [docs/feather/syn/index.html]
12:40 svnbot6 r12612 | agentz++ | - use absolute urls to make the page relocatable
12:40 svnbot6 r12611 | agentz++ | [docs/feather]
12:40 svnbot6 r12611 | agentz++ | - added the ``syn'' subdir and syn/index.html which is
12:40 svnbot6 r12611 | agentz++ |   the index page for http://feather.perl6.nl/~agentzh/syn
12:40 lambdabot Title: Index of /~agentzh/syn
12:49 agentzh Juerd: feather document root is at /var/www, aka /home/juerd/feather, right?
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13:01 agentzh http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/
13:01 lambdabot Title: Synopses on Feather
13:01 agentzh now the url to the synopses on feather is much shorter. :)
13:01 agentzh Juerd++ sudo++
13:02 agentzh Juerd: i'll recover the resync magic of the feather site in my crontab if you don't mind. :)
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13:07 agentzh please comment on the new feather home: http://feather.perl6.nl/
13:07 lambdabot Title: feather.perl6.nl
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13:12 agentzh oh, it's really lovely: http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/S02.html
13:12 lambdabot Title: S02
13:12 * agentzh feels very happy.
13:13 gaal agentzh++, please see /msg
13:14 agentzh gaal: haven't seen your /msg. weird.
13:14 integral agentzh++ # totally excellent idea
13:14 agentzh inegral: thanks!
13:15 agentzh *integral
13:16 agentzh gaal: maybe try again?
13:16 integral hmm, the double quotes in those synopses are displaying as "``" and "''" rather than “”s
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13:34 agentzh integral: looking
13:36 agentzh integral: that's difficult to fix. because ``'' are generated by Pod::Html. :/
13:36 agentzh *is
13:38 agentzh integral: err, sorry, i think they're controled by css. :)
13:40 agentzh oh, no, no, no. apparently i need more coffee. i was looking at the dev.perl.org's pages...ah, yes, `` and '' are produced directly by Pod::Html.
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13:42 agentzh integral: i think that's probably a *feature* rather than a bug since i'm already familiar with ActivePerl's HTMLs.
13:42 agentzh ;-)
13:42 buetow joined perl6
13:47 integral iirc search.cpan uses somehting like Pod::Simple::HTML which is supposedly "better"
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13:54 agentzh integral: I've looked at Pod::Simple::HTML, but didn't find how to generate an index.
13:55 agentzh i really like indexes in the pages.
13:56 agentzh Pod::Simple::HTML lacks documentation.
13:57 agentzh okay, i've finally found the "index" interface in Pod::Simple::HTML's source code. oh well...
13:59 agentzh does anyone know how to obtain the source code of search.cpan.org?
14:20 svnbot6 r12613 | fglock++ | v6 - update some files
14:20 svnbot6 r12614 | diakopter++ | fixing whitespace on my entry.
14:20 agentzh integral: indeed you're correct, Pod::Simple::HTML is *very* nice.
14:21 agentzh it will be perfect if its author write some more doc for their baby. :)
14:22 agentzh one cannot figure out how to use it by himself without looking into the source code.
14:32 svnbot6 r12615 | fglock++ | v6 - minor fix in 'Term:<x>' grammar
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14:41 gaal anyone remember how to limit output length of 'x' in perl -d? I know about o dumpDepth=4 but ISTR there's also a line length cap
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14:53 svnbot6 r12616 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
14:53 svnbot6 r12616 | agentz++ | - switched from the cumbersome Pod::Html to the cute
14:53 svnbot6 r12616 | agentz++ |   Pod::Simple::HTML. Thanks to integral++ for
14:53 svnbot6 r12616 | agentz++ |   suggesting this improvement.
14:53 svnbot6 r12616 | agentz++ |   a lot of HTML-related issues are now gone immediately,
14:53 svnbot6 r12616 | agentz++ |   and both the HTML code and the Perl 5 code look much
14:53 svnbot6 r12616 | agentz++ |   cleaner now. :)
14:54 integral agentz++
14:54 agentzh integral: thank you!
15:00 * [particle] happily updates his working copy
15:00 [particle] i've been digging into smartlinks.pl to see what parrot needs to do to use this
15:01 agentzh wow...
15:01 agentzh particle: is there anything that i can help?
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15:02 [particle] believe me, i'll let you know :)
15:02 agentzh great
15:02 [particle] we're starting to use smartlinks in the pge tests
15:03 [particle] they'll be part of the unique-id
15:04 [particle] C<< #  L<S05/Bracket rationalization/capturing group> >> will appear before a group of tests related to that
15:04 agentzh yes, that's exactly what we're doing within the Pugs test suite.
15:04 [particle] the link will apply to all following tests, until another smartlink appears
15:05 agentzh yup, smartlinks.pl uses the same rule.
15:05 [particle] i want to write this in PIR
15:05 * agentzh is amazed.
15:06 [particle] which means, first i need to write a perldoc parser/emitter
15:06 [particle] which, using pge/tge, isn't hard.
15:06 agentzh quite right. i did that in smartlinks.pl
15:06 [particle] yes, i saw that.
15:06 agentzh there's a pod parser/emitter as well as a smartlink parser.
15:06 [particle] are smartlinks standard perldoc (pod/kwid) format?
15:07 agentzh particle: i don't think so.
15:07 [particle] that's a shame. it should be valid.
15:07 agentzh just the simplest form of smartlinks is standard pod.
15:07 agentzh L<S04/section name>
15:07 PerlJam Convince whoever is writing the new POD spec that they're needed (I think that's Damian)
15:08 [particle] ingy/damian
15:08 agentzh where the keyword part is omitted.
15:08 agentzh good thought!
15:08 PerlJam ingy is easier to get a hold of on IRC.  :)
15:08 agentzh true
15:09 [particle] are keywords space separated individual words, or are they phrases searched as one unit?
15:09 agentzh for example?
15:10 [particle] like in my example, L<S05/Bracket rationalization/capturing group>
15:10 [particle] is "capturing group" searched
15:10 agentzh currently, L<../../foo bar baz> results in the following regex: /foo.*?bar.*?baz.*?/
15:10 [particle] or is "capturing" searched, and "group"
15:10 [particle] ok
15:11 agentzh to preserve the space, you need to quote them using " or '.
15:11 [particle] okay, perfect
15:11 agentzh L<../../"foo bar" baz/>
15:11 agentzh sorry, i mean L<../../"foo bar" baz>
15:11 [particle] have you thought about spec coverage reports based on smartlinks?
15:12 [particle] plus todo/skip status, of course
15:12 agentzh in terms of how many paragraphs in the synopses have test snippets?
15:12 [particle] seeing a document highlighted all in green would make me happy :)
15:12 [particle] yes
15:13 agentzh hmm
15:13 agentzh gaal wants to see test snippet highlighted in green while you want to see synopsis text colored in green.
15:13 agentzh that's fun. :)
15:14 [particle] -Ofun++
15:14 agentzh at last, we shall see the whole documents are in green...
15:14 [particle] green is the new orange
15:14 agentzh hehe
15:14 agentzh that's crazy.
15:15 agentzh i'll think about that later. of course. :)
15:15 [particle] of course. just let it rattle around in your brain for a while
15:15 agentzh lol
15:16 agentzh please let me see your PIR version of smartlinks.pl or something like that when you finished.
15:16 agentzh that's damn cool.
15:17 [particle] undoubtedly! but it'll take a while, as there are modules you use that haven't been written in pir yet
15:17 agentzh yes!
15:17 agentzh there's no PIR version of Pod::Simple::HTML, for example.
15:17 [particle] indeed.
15:18 agentzh particle: why not use the smartlinks.pl directly?
15:18 [particle] however, once i've got an ast, writing an html emitter isn't that hard
15:18 [particle] well, i could of course steal it...
15:18 [particle] but where's the fun?
15:19 [particle] in fact, i probably will steal it first, replacing bits until it's all pir
15:19 agentzh ah, the fun part...yeah...
15:19 [particle] btw your process_paragraph sub could be cleaned up a bit, i think
15:20 agentzh oh?
15:20 [particle] i just need to remember the correct p5regex syntax
15:20 agentzh use another module to do the dirty job?
15:20 [particle] well, you can do s/[LCFIB]<<(.*?)>>/$1/go;
15:21 [particle] and then have two lines
15:21 agentzh ah, yes. thank you.
15:21 agentzh i've been silly. :)
15:21 [particle] but i'm trying to think of the way to match same numbers of < >s
15:21 agentzh fixing
15:21 PerlJam What's with the /o ?  It won't do anything useful for that RE
15:21 [particle] true, it won't
15:22 agentzh just add that by habbit.
15:22 [particle] /o is a pre-5.6ism iirc
15:22 PerlJam it's a bad habit IMHO
15:22 agentzh okay, will change that too. :)
15:22 PerlJam /o *only* ever did something useful if there's a variable in the pattern.
15:22 agentzh thank you
15:22 agentzh PerlJam: true.
15:23 [particle] pj: you remember the incantation to match the same number of > as < ?
15:23 PerlJam (I have a bit of a prejudice against /o because once it took me quite a while to track down a bug due to /o deep inside a module I was using)
15:23 [particle] so this extends to L<<<...>>> etc?
15:24 PerlJam [particle]: not right off.
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15:24 [particle] k
15:26 [particle] can you have multiple syn-dirs?
15:26 agentzh yes, perlpod allows L<<<< ... >>>>.
15:26 [particle] hrmm, no. $syn_dir is scalar
15:26 agentzh particle: what do you mean?
15:27 [particle] i mean, i need to deal with perl6 synopses (S05 in particular) and parrot PDDs
15:27 agentzh that won't be difficult to implement.
15:28 [particle] no, should be straightforward
15:28 agentzh heh, yes.
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15:44 integral [particle]: m/(<+)(.*?)(>+)(??{ length($1) == length($3) ? "" : "(?!)"})/
15:45 integral or: m/(<+)(.*?)((??{ my $z = $1; $z =~ y/</>/; $z }))/
15:48 svnbot6 r12617 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
15:48 svnbot6 r12617 | agentz++ | - cleaned up sub process_paragraph according to
15:48 svnbot6 r12617 | agentz++ |   the suggestion from particle++
15:48 svnbot6 r12617 | agentz++ | - stripped the /o regex modifiers per particle++ and
15:48 svnbot6 r12617 | agentz++ |   PerlJam++
15:48 svnbot6 r12617 | agentz++ | [util/t/smartlinks.t]
15:48 svnbot6 r12617 | agentz++ | - fixed a bug in the test.
15:50 [particle] integral++ # the second one looks right
15:50 integral the first should too! :-P
15:51 integral actually, a (?!>) at the end and a (?<!<) at the beginning might also be handy
15:51 [particle] the first makes it a non-capture if it doesn't match length?
15:51 integral makes it fail, yes
15:52 [particle] backtrack and continue or fail the entire regex?
15:52 integral backtrack and continue
15:52 [particle] s/regex/match/
15:52 [particle] ah, then that'll work too :)
15:52 integral so that's why you need some anchoring at the front and back
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16:05 agentzh integral: surprisingly your second regex causes my activeperl 5.8.7 to crash. :/
16:05 integral excellent! I guess it's the y/// being nested :-/
16:05 TimToady agentzh: if you want to make the ordering of the keywords independent, then you can put each of them inside (?=^.*keyword) and turn them all into lookaheads.
16:06 agentzh TimToady: actually i pretty like the ordering of the keywords is significant. :P
16:06 TimToady (I do this when searching my radical dictionary...)
16:07 TimToady it's unexpected if you call them "keywords" though.
16:07 agentzh hmm, right.
16:07 agentzh thank you, and i'll switch to the new semantics soon. :)
16:08 TimToady or differentiate ordered keywords syntactically
16:08 TimToady a b c|d e f
16:08 * agentzh stares at the line.
16:09 TimToady or a.b.c d.e.f
16:09 TimToady or something
16:09 agentzh *nod*
16:09 TimToady the latter makes unordered the default, but the . is unobtrusive
16:09 TimToady and really stands for .*?
16:10 TimToady and manages to match a literal dot
16:10 TimToady if they happen by accident
16:10 agentzh yeah, that's much more intuitive.
16:11 TimToady course "a b c" can still be literal
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16:11 TimToady or use .. for "followed by"
16:11 TimToady or ... is almost English
16:11 agentzh L<xx/xx/"i don't".."know".."if I really like it">
16:12 TimToady for 'something left out here'
16:12 agentzh L<xx/xx/'but it'...seems...'good now'>
16:12 agentzh hmm, '...' is just a bit long.
16:13 agentzh while '.' is too easy to be confused by perl's string concatenation operator ".".
16:13 agentzh so '..' is okay, i think.
16:14 agentzh indeed they're not truly "keywords" in the common sense.
16:14 [particle] how about something using perl6 syntax
16:14 TimToady so maybe it would be better to not call them keywords and keep a b c ordered
16:14 agentzh furthermore, we can have "true" keywords by using spaces as the word separator.
16:15 TimToady and use .. for omissions and | for alternation
16:15 [particle] ordered words, search anchors,
16:15 [particle] (instead of keywords)
16:15 agentzh yes, we need a better name for it.
16:15 TimToady keyphrases?
16:16 agentzh sounds good. :)
16:16 [particle] i lik it
16:16 [particle] huffman++
16:16 agentzh hehe
16:16 TimToady I think space should still imply at least \s+ so that you don't have to worry about reflowing paragraphs
16:17 agentzh i just want to keep the keyphrases' syntax as simple as possible.
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16:17 TimToady maybe even .*? still to ignore X<<...>>-ish things
16:17 agentzh TimToady: X<<...>> currently is stripped by smartlinks.pl.
16:18 TimToady I'm fine with current .*? meaning
16:18 agentzh me too.
16:18 agentzh i think the problem is just the name "keyword"
16:18 TimToady *nod* and the non-capability of starting over at the front for independent words
16:18 agentzh so keyphrases may fix all the problems. :)
16:19 TimToady maybe just allow additional /phrase chunks and AND them.
16:20 TimToady (using the (?=^.*?...) trick
16:20 agentzh oh, what's that?
16:21 [particle] are the keyphrases bordered by \b ?
16:21 TimToady using lookahead to start over.  Or you can just do separate searches.
16:21 agentzh particle: currently not.
16:22 TimToady maybe space should imply .+? rather than .*?
16:22 agentzh *nod*
16:22 agentzh fixing
16:23 agentzh fixed
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16:24 agentzh i'm worried about the use of \b since the keyphrases are not necessarily \w+
16:25 TimToady only put the \b if the front or back is \w?
16:25 agentzh good point!
16:25 * agentzh is happy.
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16:28 * TimToady wanders off... &
16:39 * agentzh finds TimToady's suggestions very interesting.
16:39 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
16:41 agentzh TimToady: btw, i really like the (?=^.*?) trick in general. :)
16:41 xinming_ is now known as xinming
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16:45 svnbot6 r12618 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
16:45 svnbot6 r12618 | agentz++ | - replaced .*? with .+? when concatenating
16:45 svnbot6 r12618 | agentz++ |   keyphrases. TimToady++
16:51 svnbot6 r12619 | agentz++ | [util/t/smartlinks.t]
16:51 svnbot6 r12619 | agentz++ | - updated the unit tests to reflect the .*? ==> .+?
16:51 svnbot6 r12619 | agentz++ |   change.
16:52 obra audreyt: can you release a new Module::Install?
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17:06 audreyt kane-xs_: M::AutoInstall now checks PERL5_CPANPLUS_IS_RUNNING.
17:06 svnbot6 r12620 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
17:06 svnbot6 r12620 | agentz++ | - added \b to the resulting regexes of each keyphrase
17:06 svnbot6 r12620 | agentz++ |   if it starts or ends with /\w/.
17:06 svnbot6 r12620 | agentz++ | [util/t/smartlinks.t]
17:06 svnbot6 r12620 | agentz++ | - updated the unit tests to reflect this change.
17:06 kane-xs audreyt++
17:06 kane-xs this is a good first step.. i'll aim for something even more indicative in the future (ie, telling you what file is currently being run or somesuch)
17:09 svnbot6 r12621 | agentz++ | [t/README]
17:09 svnbot6 r12621 | agentz++ | - s/keyword/keyphrase/g
17:09 svnbot6 r12622 | fglock++ | * v6 - fixed $/<x>() and $/{'x'}()
17:12 svnbot6 r12623 | agentz++ | [util/t/smartlinks.t]
17:12 svnbot6 r12623 | agentz++ | - s/keyword/keyphrase/g
17:13 agentzh Juerd: is there anyway to run sudo via cron?
17:14 audreyt why would you want to sudo
17:14 audreyt ?
17:17 audreyt obra: M::I 0.64 is up.
17:19 obra tx
17:19 agentzh audreyt: because i have to write to feather's document root.
17:19 agentzh copy files to /var/www...
17:19 audreyt don't do that... let your dir be ln'ed into it
17:20 TimToady symlink out instead?
17:20 TimToady apache will generally let you follow symbolic links by default, I think
17:20 agentzh ah, yes!
17:20 audreyt and if not, ask Juerd to turn that option on in httpdconf
17:21 TimToady or in the .htaccess if you want to limit the capability to a single directory.
17:21 TimToady (can be so limited in the httpd.conf too)
17:21 agentzh thanks!
17:22 audreyt np :) *goes back to attempted sleep*
17:23 agentzh it's 1:20 AM or so at audreyt's place. :)
17:23 TimToady 2 or 3 for you?
17:24 agentzh i'm in the same timezone as her.
17:24 TimToady ah so you're only slightly insane
17:24 agentzh :)
17:24 agentzh usually i go off at 9:00 PM.
17:24 TimToady I thought your connection usually shut down at night?
17:24 agentzh tonight is an exception.
17:24 agentzh because Juerd has assigned root access to me. :)
17:25 agentzh TimToady: right.
17:26 TimToady planning to turn feather into a Chinese spambot while Juerd isn't looking, are you?  :)
17:28 agentzh TimToady: certainly not. :)
17:29 ayrnieu or a Chinese gold-farmer?
17:29 * agentzh is still unfamiliar with simlinks.
17:30 TimToady cd /fake/location; ln -s /where/it/really/is/truename fakename
17:30 ayrnieu agentzh - what bothers you about them?
17:30 agentzh TimToady: thanks :)
17:31 agentzh ayrnieu: i'm setting up feather's document root.
17:31 TimToady if fakename is the same as truename you can just put . instead of fakename
17:31 PerlJam agentzh: for smartlinky goodness?
17:31 ayrnieu ( also, ln -s /where/nothing/actually/is fakename ; and ln -s ../../might/be/the/same fakename )
17:31 agentzh PerlJam: sure but more.
17:31 agentzh TimToady: trying now...
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17:35 agentzh Unix's symbolic links are very charming. :)
17:35 agentzh saddly there're no such things on wondows. :(
17:36 gaal there were hard links in FAT
17:36 * agentzh didn't know that.
17:37 gaal AKA cross-linked clusters :)
17:37 gaal it was considered an error
17:37 gaal "it's a bug, not a feature"
17:37 agentzh i think i've heard that in my college textbooks. :)
17:38 agentzh but not quite sure.
17:38 gaal agentzh: unix's hard links are very charming too
17:38 gaal they mean for example that it's fine to delete an open file.
17:38 gaal you're actually "unlink"ing it, not deleting it
17:38 agentzh my instructor ever told us to compare symbolic links and hard links in english.
17:39 gaal the filesystem reclaims space just when the last reference is removed.
17:39 gaal ah, okay, so you know about all this stuff :)
17:40 agentzh gaal: still quite fuzzy, since i've never tried out them in practice. :)
17:40 ayrnieu (incidentally, all files are 'hard links'.  Even symbolic links are 'hard links'.)
17:40 gaal TimToady: on my ln, you can even drop the '.' if fakename is  is the same as truename
17:40 ayrnieu but, geez, a reference counting mechanism?  GC's are very efficient these days :-)
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17:41 gaal disks being what they are, you can be assured of eventual global destruction
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17:43 agentzh oh, help! Juerd has redirected /var/www to /home/Juerd/feather. How can i change that to ~audreyt/pugs/docs/feather?
17:43 buubot heave!
17:44 gaal agentzh: redireted, with ln? sec, logging in
17:44 agentzh k
17:44 svnbot6 r12624 | fglock++ | * Pugs::Compiler::Rule - 'regex' closures are emitted by v6.pm, if it is available
17:45 agentzh also, please redirect /var/www/syn to ~agentzh/public_html/syn...
17:45 agentzh not sure if it's possible...anyway...
17:47 gaal 1. fixed
17:47 agentzh gaal: what command did you use?
17:47 gaal 2. in principle yes, but not with the actual dir being a working copy
17:48 agentzh gaal: no problem. 2 is trivial.
17:48 gaal agentzh: sudo ln -s /home/audreyt/pugs/docs/feather/ /var/www
17:48 gaal agentzh: I had to 'sudo rm /var/www' first
17:48 agentzh gaal: thanks!
17:48 agentzh ah
17:48 gaal you can also use -f on ln
17:48 agentzh -f means force?
17:49 gaal but only do that when you're sure you know what you're doing.
17:49 gaal yes.
17:49 agentzh okay
17:49 agentzh forget about 2.
17:49 agentzh i have a better way to do that now.
17:49 agentzh :)
17:49 gaal okay :)
17:49 agentzh gaal++
17:50 agentzh i can finally go to sleep soon. :)
17:50 gaal good night soon :)
17:51 agentzh gaal: i was getting the error "File exists" when ln'd them.
17:51 agentzh so ``rm'' is very important.
17:51 gaal yes, because '/var/www' existed. hennce the rm/-f
17:51 agentzh got it. :)
17:52 gaal be very, very careful with 'rm' when root. there's no easy undelete. :)
17:52 * agentzh is shamed to keep asking extremely basic questions on #perl6.
17:52 agentzh gaal: i hear that. :)
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17:53 gaal agentzh: my first O'Reilley book was "Unix Power Tools". I think I still have the copy somewhere. It's really recommended, although by now probably outdated.
17:53 gaal see if you can find a copy!
17:54 agentzh thank you! i'll take a look!
17:54 gaal (there was a brief section -- maybe a page or two? -- saying Perl rocks but that there was no room in the book for it, and that I should look out for the (then pink) Programming Perl volume. Turned out to be pretty good advice...
17:55 Limbic_Region joined perl6
17:55 gaal )
17:56 ayrnieu I'd imagine subtitles on many of its other sections with the text "If you already know Perl, you can probably safely skip to the next section."
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17:57 agentzh perl++
17:57 gaal not necessarily; it wasn't a programming book per se. It had nifty things like notifying you when your boss logged in and stuff like that. Wow, I miss the unix era
17:58 gaal I mean when everybody used to log on to the same box
17:59 gaal ^ today that seems really trivial, like while who | grep, sure, but it was lots of fun when I first read it
17:59 gaal anymoose enough nostalgia!
17:59 ayrnieu there are still such systems :-)  with thin clients and whatnot.
18:00 agentzh in our lab, we students still have to log onto the same box in order to try out UNIX. :)
18:00 gaal networks with .rhosts eq '+ +'...
18:00 agentzh it's fun to see the big old machine runs out of resource every 1 hour or so... :)
18:01 zgh joined perl6
18:01 agentzh i remember i even wrote a perl 4 script for the instructor to cleanup the shared resources with force.
18:01 agentzh or they'll have to restart the machine. :)
18:03 spoop joined perl6
18:03 agentzh at that time, everyone in the lab was appreciating the power of perl. :)
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18:11 svnbot6 r12625 | fglock++ | v6 - 'sub term:<a> {b}' compiles to $::_V6_GRAMMAR::term{'a'}
18:14 svnbot6 r12626 | agentz++ | [docs/feather/syn/index.html]
18:14 svnbot6 r12626 | agentz++ | - used relative urls in links.
18:14 svnbot6 r12626 | agentz++ | - made the page a bit pretty.
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18:21 agentzh i'd point /var/www to my ~agentzh/feather.
18:22 zgh joined perl6
18:23 agentzh because i need to generate synopses into /var/www/syn/ without sudo.
18:25 TimToady well, stealing all of /var/www might be construed as antisocial, so I'd just symlink /your/location/of/syn to /var/www/syn
18:29 agentzh TimToady: thinking...
18:29 agentzh TimToady: but there's also a syn/ under audreyt's working copy.
18:30 zgh joined perl6
18:30 agentzh that's the problem.
18:30 agentzh or just remove syn/index.html from the pugs repos.
18:31 agentzh okay
18:31 agentzh will do
18:31 rindolf Hi TimToady
18:31 agentzh so /var/www will still points to ~audreyt/pugs/docs/feather.
18:33 integral hmm, I remember mentions of packrat parsing in here last year sometime,  anyone know why pugs didn't go with it?
18:35 zgh joined perl6
18:35 agentzh integral: Audrey said there were already not much bracktracking in the Perl 6 parser so packrat parsing is not very beneficial.
18:35 agentzh *was
18:35 integral ah, thanks :)
18:36 agentzh np :)
18:38 svnbot6 r12627 | agentz++ | [docs/feather]
18:38 svnbot6 r12627 | agentz++ | - moved syn/index.html to syn_index.html
18:38 svnbot6 r12627 | agentz++ | - removed the syn subdir so that i won't have to steal
18:38 svnbot6 r12627 | agentz++ |   the whole /var/www. TimToady++
18:41 svnbot6 r12628 | fglock++ | v6 - some fixes to category parser/emitter
18:42 zgh joined perl6
18:49 fglock why do categories need names like 'term:<...>' instead of ':term<...>' ?
18:50 zgh joined perl6
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18:55 agentzh yay, so http://feather.perl6.nl/~agentzh/syn and http://feather.perl6.nl/syn effectively share the same directory now.
18:55 lambdabot Title: Index of /~agentzh/syn
18:56 agentzh symbolic links++
18:57 agentzh Juerd: the feather homepage is automatically updated every few minutes again. thanks to gaal++'s help. :)
18:57 Juerd agentzh: Maybe it's nice to add a timestamp to the smartlinked synopses
18:57 Juerd agentzh++ gaal++
18:57 agentzh Juerd: there's a timestamp in the form of HTML comments. :)
18:57 Juerd agentzh: In the synopses, at the top; in the index, just after the second paragraph
18:58 Juerd agentzh: I think it's best if the timestamp is very apparent, so people immediately notice it if it gets out of date. You won't be watching it this closely forever, probably :)
18:58 agentzh Juerd: okay. will add that tomorrow...
18:58 Juerd Thanks
18:58 agentzh 2:56 AM here... :)
18:58 Juerd Whoa
18:58 Juerd Go to bed, you
18:58 agentzh sleep now &
18:58 agentzh left perl6
18:58 Juerd Good night :)
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19:08 svnbot6 r12629 | fglock++ | * v6 - merge ( grammatical categories + Data::Bind )
19:08 TimToady fglock: infix:<x>() would call the infix operator, whereas :infix<x>() would attempt (infix => 'x').()
19:10 TimToady in addition term: forces compile-time evaluation of the "subscript", I think, while :term{$x} wouldn't.
19:10 TimToady but whether or not it does that, I think it conveys the intent to the reader much better
19:11 TimToady also adverbs are allowed in places where terms aren't
19:13 TimToady also it would potentially break the autoquoting of => if it had to look on the left for syntactic categories.
19:13 TimToady and if it didn't do that, we'd have to explain why :infix was different from infix=>
19:14 fglock TimToady: so it is meant to parse as adverb postcircumfix
19:14 fglock s/<ws>/plus/
19:16 fglock is infix: => 'or' valid syntax?
19:18 fglock such as: (infix: => 'x').()
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19:18 fglock or even: (infix:<x>).() ?
19:20 fglock or [ (infix:<x>) ] @a
19:25 fglock coffee time here &
19:34 TimToady syntactic categories have nothing at all to do with pair notation
19:35 TimToady they're only a way to extend function names to sneak non-identifier characters into the name.
19:36 TimToady infix:<stuff>() is exactly like foo() as far as usage goes.
19:37 TimToady the magic of making sure "stuff" ends up in the infix table only happens at declaration time.
19:37 TimToady (or equivalently, import time)
19:38 TimToady so (infix:<x>).() is no good in the same way that (foo).() is no good if you wanted to call foo()
19:38 TimToady if you want a reference, you have to say &infix:<x>, just as with &foo
19:39 TimToady excuse me, a Code object.  :)
19:40 jferrero joined perl6
19:51 fglock TimToady: thanks
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20:33 svnbot6 r12630 | fglock++ | * v6 - Pugs::Grammar::P6Term compiles!
20:35 * Eidolos begins building Pugs..
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21:36 svnbot6 r12631 | markstos++ | Link index page to the very useful "Differences" document, and also add a comment that it would
21:36 svnbot6 r12631 | markstos++ | be nice to auto-HTMLize this page as well.
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21:42 svnbot6 r12632 | markstos++ | Improve the titles on syn_index.html. I don't care were the content is stored, I care what it is.
21:44 Alias_ joined perl6
21:44 Alias_ audreyt: ping?
21:44 Alias_ The CPANPLUS_IS_RUNNING change is a mistake
21:44 Alias_ (to M:I)
21:45 diakopter joined perl6
21:45 Alias_ Because PERL5_CPANPLUS_IS_RUNNING does not actually mean that CPANPLUS is running
21:45 Alias_ It reports false positives in some situations
21:48 markstos joined perl6
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22:03 svnbot6 r12633 | markstos++ | Add a smart link to Differences.pod, in hopes that someone will make it work someday.
22:06 svnbot6 r12634 | markstos++ | Add mention of Global variables to Differences.pod, with another hopeful smart link...
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22:52 clkao win 4
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23:32 Alias_ clkao: Just to chase you up again, any thoughts after our YAPC::NA conversation on the idea of a svk gui?
23:32 Alias_ Are you interested? Should I be waiting? Is it just on the low priority list?
23:34 clkao it's to be prioritised
23:36 eden_c left perl6
23:36 Alias_ meaning... that it is pre-triage, and you have no idea if it will be done sooner or later, but it will probably be done?
23:36 obra I think "many people would like it, but many people would like a pony"
23:37 Alias_ Well, "everyone on Windows" is included in the "many" :)
23:37 Alias_ But I agree, it's a pretty luxurious feature
23:37 Alias_ high work certainly
23:38 Alias_ So my answer is "Maybe, but don't expect it any time soon"
23:38 Alias_ ?
23:40 KxAx left perl6
23:42 obra We've talked to at least one customer about it but aren't currently comissioned to develop it
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23:57 svnbot6 r12635 | lwall++ | Now reports "not ok" for when backticks throws exception.
23:57 svnbot6 r12635 | lwall++ | File finder now rejects filenames containing /-p5/.
23:58 svnbot6 r12635 | lwall++ | (Should look in files for 'use v6', really...)

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