Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-08-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:01 araujo joined perl6
00:01 araujo hello :-)
00:02 markstos_ hello
00:02 araujo hi markstos_
00:03 * araujo just read a bit about perl6 and was interested to take a look at what the community has so far :-)
00:04 markstos_ araujo: You can try it out right here in the IRC channel:
00:04 markstos_ ?eval say "hello world!"
00:04 evalbot_12700 OUTPUT[hello world! ] Bool::True
00:04 araujo oh nice :-)
00:05 markstos_ Yeah. I just used to post an OO problem I'm having:
00:05 markstos_ ?eval class Foo; has %!PARAM is rw; submethod BUILD (%param) { %!PARAM = %param; }; Foo.new( a => 'b' );
00:05 evalbot_12700 Error: Undeclared variable: "%param"
00:05 markstos_ You can see that some things look different!
00:05 araujo well, yeah, i kind of remember a few things from perl5 ....
00:06 araujo i got quite a time without using it
00:06 markstos_ Here's a nice starting point for documentation: http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/
00:06 lambdabot Title: Official Perl6 Documentation
00:06 araujo Ive been some kind of interested, since pugs is being written on Haskell
00:06 * araujo is a lambda haskell folk
00:06 markstos_ Ah.
00:07 araujo :-}
00:07 araujo oh, yay, we got lambdabot here too!
00:07 markstos_ There's definitely still Haskell programming let to do if you are interested. :)
00:07 araujo Thanks markstos_
00:07 araujo i will check the docs
00:07 araujo markstos_, sounds cool to me :-)
00:07 TreyHarris markstos_: well, to start with, evalbot requires that you use class Foo { }, because it's not a compilation unit
00:07 markstos_ And I'm qualified to give you a commit bit if you find something you want to hack on...
00:08 * araujo isn't a perl 'monger' though
00:08 araujo cool markstos_ , thanks!
00:09 markstos_ TreyHarris: Ah. I still get the error with that {} syntax, though.
00:09 * araujo wouldn't mind to read the code and report typos , small problems though
00:10 markstos_ araujo: Great, thanks! Your help is appreciated. I know Perl but not Haskell, so I help on other parts of the project. It takes all kinds!
00:13 Juerd Seeing police cars is frightening if you're doing something illegal, even if you're quite certain they're after someone else :)
00:13 araujo markstos_, Cool!
00:13 araujo markstos_, it sounds like an interesting project indeed.
00:14 araujo It's good to see two programming languages community working together :-)
00:15 markstos_ araujo: yes! I'm not a Haskell programmer, but I'm big fan and user of darcs, and have appreciated what I've learned about Haskel far
00:15 markstos_ Perl6 has been fun for me to learn about. I've been blogging about some of recent experiences here:
00:15 markstos_ http://use.perl.org/~markjugg/journal/
00:15 lambdabot Title: Journal of markjugg (792)
00:15 markstos_ Juerd: Have you been watching DVDs on Linux again ?
00:15 Juerd markstos_: Heh, no. I've been taking pictures of highway road signs.
00:16 TreyHarris markstos_: well, another thing is you need a slurpy hash there.  otherwise you need to pass in an actual hash.  so submethod (*%params)
00:16 markstos_ And that's illegal?
00:16 Juerd It's kind of illegal to have 0 velocity on a motorway :)
00:16 araujo markstos_, nice , i check it
00:16 Juerd Can't take good pictures while driving.
00:16 markstos_ TreyHarris: Thanks. I had begun to figure out I need the * from another example, but i hadn't figured out why yet.
00:16 araujo I used to program on perl. But i have quite a time without touching it (since 2003 around)
00:17 Juerd araujo: Don't worry; Perl 6 is sufficiently different in internals that it wouldn't help you anyway.
00:17 Juerd araujo: Only the outside is clearly coming from Perl 5
00:17 araujo I have read a bit about this new perl6 , and it practically seems like a 'new' language from the look.
00:17 Juerd It is
00:18 araujo Juerd, oh, yeah, so my first impressions are sort of true then :-)
00:18 Juerd It's a new language, that borrows from many existing languages, but mostly Perl 5.
00:18 araujo Cool!
00:18 Juerd Many of the ideas you find in Perl 5 are still there. But the syntax is very different in many ways. Still, though, it looks like Perl.
00:18 markstos_ araujo: I suspect that even some influences of Haskell have snuck into it...
00:18 araujo yeah, i get it.
00:19 araujo markstos_, really? ... such as?
00:19 markstos_ I actually findit more different than the same.
00:19 markstos_ araujo: Oh, now you've called me out.
00:19 Juerd markstos_: Compare it to Python or Ruby, and you'll find that Perl 6 is much more like Perl 5 than those languages are.
00:19 markstos_ I have to recall what I what I thinking of. :)
00:21 markstos_ I just recall Audrey Tang blogging about some things she liked about Haskell, but I'm not for certain how the use of Haskell has actually influenced the project.
00:21 araujo haha
00:22 eden_c joined perl6
00:22 araujo it's ok, i probably got too many questions because i _need_ to start reading about this stuff :-)
00:22 Juerd araujo: Ask them :)
00:22 araujo Juerd, :-)
00:23 * araujo bookmarks markstos_ links to check when he gets back from dinner
00:23 araujo off to eat now, thanks markstos_ Juerd
00:24 eden_c left perl6
00:25 Juerd Bon apetit
00:31 markstos_ TreyHarris: The slurpy seems to help, but leads to a new error I don't understand. When I try examine the hash I popular, a casting error is reported:
00:31 markstos_ class Foo { has %!PARAM is rw; submethod BUILD (*%param) { %!PARAM = *%param; } }; Foo.new( a => 'b' ); say %!PARAM.perl;
00:31 markstos_ ?eval class Foo { has %!PARAM is rw; submethod BUILD (*%param) { %!PARAM = *%param; } }; Foo.new( a => 'b' ); say %!PARAM.perl;
00:31 evalbot_12700 Error: Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Sub:0x895ea48>
00:32 markstos_ I'm working on CGI.pm for Perl6, and all I want to do is have args passed to new() availabe later through param()...
00:33 markstos_ It seemed so easy at the outset...
00:36 Limbic_Region joined perl6
00:37 Limbic_Region anyone know where I can get a decent nmake.exe without downloading the toolkit?
00:40 mako132_ joined perl6
00:47 markstos_ I solved my problem. I was confused. I was calling %!PARAM outside of a class.
00:47 markstos_ It would have been nice if the error message was more along those lines, though: "%!PARAM is declared as an attribute of the Foo class, but is being referenced outside of it. "
00:57 neoesque joined perl6
01:01 svnbot6 r12701 | markstos++ | Allow Initializing the CGI object with your hash of params
01:03 Limbic_Region joined perl6
01:19 diakopter joined perl6
01:19 Limbic_Region joined perl6
01:21 justatheory joined perl6
01:21 diakopter joined perl6
01:29 * Limbic_Region attempts to compile pugs using nmake.exe as he refuses to install AND REGISTER the toolkit with M$
01:30 Juerd It must surely suck to be forced to use Windows
01:31 Limbic_Region actually, I am not forced to use windows at home (where I am now)
01:31 Limbic_Region in fact, my desktop is dual boot - this is my wife's shiny new laptop
01:31 Juerd Oh. Why do you prefer Windows on it?
01:32 Limbic_Region I don't - it makes things easier for my wife
01:32 Limbic_Region I haven't had a chance to partition the drive and install linux on the laptop - it is brandy new
01:32 Juerd ssh to your desktop ;)
01:33 Limbic_Region desktop is off-line ATM - need to install wireless card in it
01:33 Juerd Modern linux installers can resize partitions for you
01:33 Limbic_Region long story
01:33 Juerd Ah, wireless. Wireless sucks for nonlaptops
01:33 Limbic_Region Juerd - yes I know
01:33 Limbic_Region and to the second point, it wasn't originally that way - the desktop was hardwired to the wireless router
01:33 Juerd It's hard to tell you something you don't know already :)
01:34 Limbic_Region but unfortunately I needed to move the wifi router to a different floor in the house so the laptop could get reception everywhere - leaving my desktop SOL
01:34 Limbic_Region though I am not really a winblows hater
01:35 Juerd You say "M$" and "Winblows". You may not hate it, but I do sense some annoyance :)
01:37 Bit-Man joined perl6
01:37 Limbic_Region sure - but I have yet to find an OS I am 100% happy with
01:38 Limbic_Region it's not that I don't believe Microsoft can put out quality software, I just believe they choose not to most of the time
01:39 Limbic_Region it's not that I don't think Bill is an uber smart guy, humanatarian, and a great business man - I just think many of those business practices suck
01:39 Limbic_Region what does "==> Refreshing specs from http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design/syn..." do in the perl Makefile.PL process?
01:42 * Limbic_Region will brb
01:42 Juerd I'm never 100% happy with any piece of software. But my Kubuntu desktop gets a lot closer than any Windows installation I've seen so far.
01:46 thomason joined perl6
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02:06 Limbic_Region joined perl6
02:12 Limbic_Region yay - pugs successfully built
02:12 Limbic_Region cool beaners and moldy chicken
02:19 onsen joined perl6
02:20 marksto1 joined perl6
02:21 svnbot6 r12702 | dolmans++ | add eval_dies_ok.
02:22 LimbicRegion joined perl6
02:22 dada joined perl6
02:22 dada http://www.djdada.dl.am RnB/HipHop Songs to Download & Musicclips! check it out ;)
02:24 svnbot6 r12703 | markstos++ | Add link to Documention.pod from syn_index.html, in hopes
02:24 svnbot6 r12703 | markstos++ | that Agentz will add it to the HTMLization system.
02:25 dada left perl6
02:30 svnbot6 r12704 | markstos++ | Add mention of kwid and Documentation.pod (S26) to Differences.pod
02:30 svnbot6 r12705 | dolmans++ | use eval_dies_ok to ensure user-defined non-assoc infix cannot be used chaining.
02:32 svnbot6 r12706 | markstos++ | Clarify on syn_index that Documentation spec is "DRAFT" status.
02:32 svnbot6 r12706 | markstos++ | (As opposed to the official-but-still-changing nature of the other specs...)
03:03 kanru joined perl6
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03:36 svnbot6 r12707 | markstos++ | simple typo fix
03:46 mako132_ joined perl6
03:51 markstos_ joined perl6
04:05 * araujo back
04:06 araujo Perl 6 gains the lazy evaluation of lists that has been a feature of some functional programming languages such as Haskell
04:06 araujo :-)
04:14 justatheory joined perl6
04:26 TimToady araujo: did anyone send you a commit bit yet?
04:26 mako132_ joined perl6
04:27 mdiep_ joined perl6
04:29 araujo TimToady, commit bit? ...
04:30 araujo no , i am starting my learning process :-)
04:32 TimToady that's no excuse.
04:32 TimToady all of us are learning.
04:33 araujo :-)
04:33 TreyHarris TimToady: did you see my question earlier?  what happens when you have executable statements inside a class declaration?
04:33 araujo TimToady, well, i would be more tha happy to help whenever i can definitely
04:33 TimToady araujo _at_ gentoo?
04:34 araujo TimToady, yes sir
04:35 TimToady TreyHarris: they execute once at class construction time.
04:36 TreyHarris ok, but RHS of accessor declarations are automatically run as if they were inside BUILD?
04:37 Limbic_Region joined perl6
04:39 TimToady sorry, flakey connection
04:40 * Limbic_Region just spent the last 3 hours diagnosing a flakey connection
04:40 Limbic_Region turned out, all I had to do was release and renew the dhcp setting on my wireless router
04:41 TimToady well, I'm in a remote location that just happens to have wifi, sort of
04:41 TimToady \
04:42 TimToady yes, pseudo assign to attrib is suppoed to happen at BUILD gtime
04:43 TreyHarris ok.
04:45 TimToady A12 explains better than S12, probably.
04:46 TimToady araujo: still waiting for openfoundry to log me in...
04:46 kanru joined perl6
04:49 TimToady araujo: commit bit is on its way.
04:50 TimToady traditional first checkin is to add your name to AUTHORS
04:50 TimToady and then you're emotionally committed.  :)
04:51 TimToady checkin philosophy is to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.. :)
04:52 TimToady have fun!
04:57 Khisanth joined perl6
05:01 araujo TimToady, oh, that was ... fast :-P
05:01 araujo Thanks TimToady ! , i'll do my best
05:01 TimToady seemed kinda slow to me.  :)
05:01 araujo hah, well, considering i just joined this channel ;-)
05:02 TimToady lambdafolk generally seem to catch on about as fast as anyone...
05:02 * araujo has pointed several times he is not any perl monger too :-)
05:02 TimToady we consider differences to be features around here.
05:02 obra You made the mistake of suggesting that you're at least passingly familiar with Haskell
05:03 araujo haha nice one
05:03 obra ;)
05:03 obra Welcome
05:03 araujo Hi obra , and thanks!
05:03 TimToady sure, I've learned Haskell several times already...
05:03 araujo ya, ive been coding Haskell from quite a time now :-)
05:03 obra Haskell, is, sadly, over my head.
05:04 araujo haha, i sometimes feel like that about perl ;-)
05:04 obra Around perl6ish things, I mostly just suggest things people might want to hack on.
05:04 * Limbic_Region equates trying to learn Haskell with trying to stuff the square in the round hole - it just don't fit
05:04 TimToady which timezone are you in, araujo?
05:04 * Limbic_Region will get it eventually though
05:04 araujo TimToady, VET
05:04 * araujo is from venezuela
05:04 Limbic_Region those edges are bound to wear down eventually
05:05 kanru joined perl6
05:05 araujo :-)
05:06 Limbic_Region seen audreyt
05:06 Limbic_Region ?seen audreyt
05:06 lambdabot audreyt is in #perl6 and #haskell. I last heard audreyt speak 12 hours, 46 minutes and 57 seconds ago.
05:07 Limbic_Region that's the last time I heard her speak too
05:08 TimToady the other lambdafolk are scattered about the world, so around the world, so you can usually get advice here most times o of the day o rnight.
05:09 araujo nice :-)
05:09 TimToady sorry, relocated to better reception now, so not typing blind anymore...
05:10 * araujo hopes to have some perl mongers around willing to answer questions from time to time :-)
05:13 TimToady the place is infested with those...
05:13 araujo haha
05:13 Limbic_Region araujo - in the very unlikely event there isn't a perl monger here that can answer your question - #perl and PerlMonks are great alternatives
05:13 araujo good
05:14 TimToady though in both of those places most people will be more familiar with Perl 5 than Perl 6.
05:15 Limbic_Region ah yes, nice augmentation TimToady
05:15 Limbic_Region if there isn't a perl 6 monger here that can answer your question - the synopses http://dev.perl.org/perl6 or the mailing list perl6.language are great alternatives
05:15 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - perl6
05:17 araujo TimToady, i see
05:17 aufrank (slightly) OT:  does anyone know where I can download an archive of the info files for the prl 5.8.8?
05:19 * Limbic_Region wonders what info files are
05:22 aufrank http://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/
05:22 lambdabot Title: Texinfo - GNU Documentation System - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation (FSF ...
05:23 Limbic_Region aufrank - oh, those info pages - as in alternatives to man pages
05:23 aufrank yeah, those :)
05:23 * Limbic_Region would assume there is a pod2info translator out there and generating your own with a little File::Find magic shouldn't be too difficult
05:24 Limbic_Region or even man2info
05:24 Limbic_Region sorry I couldn't be of more help
05:24 aufrank np
05:25 Limbic_Region did you try googling?
05:25 Limbic_Region http://www.stanford.edu/services/pubsw/package/doc/perlinfo.html
05:25 lambdabot Title: IT Services: Perl info 5.6
05:26 Limbic_Region of course - that's for 5.6 but it looks like they are out there if you dig
05:28 * aufrank digs
05:35 Limbic_Region pod2info is on CPAN
05:36 Limbic_Region or at least so claims perlamiga
05:38 agentzh joined perl6
05:39 agentzh Limbic_Region: pugs' Makefile.PL invokes docs/Perl6/Spec/update and downloads the latest version of synopses via LWP.
05:40 agentzh my smartlinks.pl also invokes the ``update'' script to sync with the synopses repos.
05:43 agentzh markstos: should we offer links to syn drafts on syn_index.html? i really doubt it.
05:43 Limbic_Region agentzh - yeah, the firewall on this laptop doesn't work the same as my desktop so I didn't realize it was silently hanging the LWP request
05:43 * Limbic_Region fixed it though - thanks
05:43 agentzh LR: you can set the HTTP_proxy env?
05:43 agentzh you know, i'm also behind a firewall.
05:44 agentzh (two firewalls, actually)
05:44 agentzh and an HTTP proxy is just fine.
05:45 agentzh oh, i just remember your brand new laptop at home has no web connection at all. :)
05:46 Limbic_Region no - I am connected on that laptop
05:46 agentzh markstos: there're already serveral syn drafts under docs/Perl6/Spec, but my smartlinks skip them all since they're not official yet.
05:46 agentzh LR: good to hear that. :)
05:46 Limbic_Region firewall not allowing the LWP connection - nothing to do with proxy
05:47 agentzh oh, dear...
05:47 Limbic_Region windows sw based firewalls tend to limit what programs have access to the internet not just what ports are open and where you are connecting to
05:47 Limbic_Region so because the firewall hadn't been told perl.exe was ok - it just silently hung
05:48 agentzh ah, i see. the win firewall. hehe.
05:48 agentzh so it's trivial to fix.
05:48 agentzh i was thinking you had fixed Makefile.PL or something else in the pugs tree.
05:50 Limbic_Region oh, sorry - just getting the new laptop set up with everything I want (on this partition anyway)
05:51 agentzh ah
05:51 agentzh <markstos_> agentz: S29 currently cuts off after the "ref" entry in the HTML version. I'm not sure why. http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/S29.html
05:51 lambdabot Title: S29
05:51 agentzh markstos: looking now.
05:54 agentzh <svnbot6> r12687 | audreyt++ | * eval 'UnicodeHere' now works again.  Thanks to agentzh++ for noticing.
05:54 perlbot What kind of idiot karmas himself?  Your kind of idiot!
05:54 agentzh audreyt: you mean the failing test in t/syntax/comments.t?
05:54 agentzh perlbot: shut up!
05:55 ayrnieu ayrnieu--
05:57 agentzh marstos: it meems that S29 contains Pod errors. fixing now.
05:59 avarab is now known as avar
05:59 agentzh podchecker has told me that Functions.pod has 8 pod syntax errors. oh, my God.
05:59 kattana_ joined perl6
06:00 agentzh and Documentation.pod also has 4 pod syntax errors.
06:13 svnbot6 r12708 | agentz++ | [docs/Perl6/Spec]
06:13 svnbot6 r12708 | agentz++ | - fixed all the POD syntax errors and warnings reported
06:13 svnbot6 r12708 | agentz++ |   by the excellent podchecker script.
06:13 kanru joined perl6
06:15 agentzh sorry, it should have been "[docs/Perl6/Spec/Function.pod]" in the svn log. :)
06:17 agentzh could anyone tell me the middle name of Ingy?
06:17 svnbot6 r12709 | agentz++ | [docs/Perl6/Spec/CPAN.pod]
06:17 svnbot6 r12709 | agentz++ | - fixed all the POD syntax errors and warnings reported
06:17 svnbot6 r12709 | agentz++ |   by the excellent podchecker script.
06:20 agentzh d?t?
06:20 aufrank døt
06:20 aufrank or maybe döt
06:21 aufrank I can never remember
06:21 audreyt see AUTHORS :)
06:21 audreyt but I don't think it's his middle name... "dot net" is the last name
06:21 audreyt it's a preposition, part of his last name
06:22 audreyt like the German "von", French "de",
06:22 audreyt or Dutch "van"
06:22 ayrnieu or the American ""
06:22 audreyt lol
06:25 agentzh thanks, already fixed in Documentation.pod. :)
06:25 svnbot6 r12710 | agentz++ | [docs/Perl6/Spec/Documentation.pod]
06:25 svnbot6 r12710 | agentz++ | - fixed the Pod syntax errors and warnings which i'm able
06:25 svnbot6 r12710 | agentz++ |   to fix.
06:25 audreyt actually, the american equivalent would be "\cH"
06:25 svnbot6 r12710 | agentz++ | - changed the file encoding to UTF-8.
06:26 zgh joined perl6
06:26 agentzh audreyt: do you think if we should put drafts into feather.perl6.nl/spec ?
06:26 agentzh i'm doubting.
06:26 audreyt sure, as long as it's clearly marked as such
06:26 agentzh audreyt: okay, thanks for the answer.
06:27 audreyt "unofficial draft written by members of the Perl community but not approved by the Perl 6 Design Team."
06:27 audreyt is the wording ingy used in Perl6::Bible
06:27 agentzh ok
06:36 agentzh audreyt: i hope there will be 6.2.13 and 6.2.14 to fix basic issues in pugs. :)
06:37 agentzh audreyt: i'm just hoping pugs to be somewhat ``trusty'' or sort of ``stable'' before 6.28.0.
06:38 Daveman joined perl6
06:41 audreyt well... the problem is, a stable implementation of december 2005's perl6
06:41 audreyt is kinda of not very useful :)
06:42 agentzh hmm
06:42 audreyt in particular: the object model and capture-based calling convention
06:42 audreyt really needs to land before we can stabilize anything
06:42 gaal moose.
06:43 audreyt currently pugs does not even support user-defined &each and &zip
06:43 audreyt and introspection is completely not there
06:43 agentzh yeah
06:43 gaal itrospection would be fun to write once vv is there
06:43 audreyt today I think I'll fix the regression caused by the Var refactoring
06:44 audreyt (which has delayed my time working on vv by a week, but is probably worth it by the speed and internal clarity win alone :))
06:44 agentzh audreyt: i'll be happy if you're keeping fixing failing tests in t/
06:44 audreyt and then go back to Capture callconv
06:44 gaal I want to finish the \() stuff from last saturday
06:44 audreyt agentzh: right, that's what I'm doing. but "regressions"
06:45 audreyt i.e. tests that used to pass in the previous release but now fails
06:45 agentzh that's great. :)
06:45 audreyt would take precedence over new tests
06:45 agentzh i think we just need more audreys here. :)
06:47 audreyt or more hackathons :)
06:47 * audreyt needs to get the Brazil hackathon figured out...
06:47 agentzh audreyt: it's not a complaint. that's merely a wish. :)
06:47 agentzh YAPC::SA?
06:47 audreyt yeah
06:48 audreyt or hey, maybe you can fly over to Taipei with xinming and other .cn foles
06:48 agentzh that'll be wonderful. :)
06:48 audreyt and we can have a hackathon here
06:48 audreyt which would be far less expensive than flying to Brazil
06:48 agentzh indeed!
06:48 audreyt I hear that September onward you can get a visa with much more ease.
06:48 cmarcelo anyone mentioned Brazil?
06:49 agentzh audreyt: saddly the school will start in September. :/
06:49 audreyt failing that, I can also come to YAPC::Beijing if there will still be one
06:49 audreyt cmarcelo: yeah. I plan to fly to Brazil directly after OOPSLA
06:50 cmarcelo audreyt: I tested i'm my linux and in feather, s/StrMap/Hash/ for both AST/Internals.hs and interning, no segfaults.. do you have any other segfault case with Hash that I can try reproduce?
06:50 audreyt so that should give me a couple weeks of hacking time
06:50 agentzh audreyt: sweet. :)
06:50 audreyt cmarcelo: no, not at this moment, my macbook is in repair
06:50 audreyt cmarcelo: but I kinda like StrMap better than Hash now
06:50 audreyt as we can now put embedded nulls in hash keys too
06:51 audreyt ?eval my %hash{"foo\0bar"} = 1; %hash.keys.[0].chars
06:51 evalbot_12710 7
06:51 audreyt and having hash ordered by default with minimal speed loss (<5%) is I think a win...
06:52 gaal is that ordered by insertion or collation?
06:52 audreyt by collation.
06:52 audreyt autosorted hash, that is
06:52 gaal so the 5% is insert time yes?
06:53 audreyt I believe so. lookup time should be of no dicernable difference
06:53 agentzh gaal, audreyt: does feather smoke pugs periodically? and where's the resulting tests.yml then?
06:53 audreyt I don't think it does anymore
06:54 audreyt eric256 used to run the smoke loop there
06:54 agentzh ohhhhh
06:54 agentzh used to == no longer
06:54 audreyt aye
06:55 agentzh gaal: any comments?
06:55 cmarcelo audreyt: re StrMap: thats fine so. that Hash segfaults were the last big problem (i remember) in pugs' judy..
06:55 agentzh or any suggestions?
06:55 gaal agentzh: well, I vote for fixing that :) but no tuits to do it myself
06:55 audreyt agentzh: running the smoke loop requires a bit of itmeout detection
06:55 agentzh gaal: is it possible to use the data on the smoke server?
06:55 agentzh audreyt: true.
06:56 gaal agentzh: not really, it's html produce, not raw TAP data
06:56 gaal also it's on iblech++'s server, not feather
06:56 audreyt (brb)
06:56 gaal audreyt: I don't understand Prim dispatch. look:
06:56 agentzh gaal: is it possible to let the user also upload .yml?
06:56 gaal ?eval \(42)
06:56 evalbot_12710 "--- !hs/VInt \n- 42\n"
06:56 audreyt ?eval \(1,2)
06:56 evalbot_12710 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&circumfix:\( )"
06:57 gaal this is good, it means my capture crutch works
06:57 gaal that is bad, it meas it doesn't
06:57 gaal Prim:1996
06:57 audreyt gaal: at this moment you need to intercept it
06:57 gaal nothing I put there seems to work
06:57 audreyt it's too late to do it there
06:57 gaal hmm.
06:57 audreyt you need to do like &each
06:57 audreyt and &goto and &assuming
06:57 audreyt and ignore the prim dispatching for now
06:58 audreyt i.e. grep for "bloody"in Pugs.Eval
06:58 audreyt and do it like that.
06:58 gaal Eval's too late too, isn't it?
06:58 audreyt it's not
06:58 audreyt in Eval the args were yet unevaluated
06:58 gaal or, you mean my capture is parsed, just not dispatched?
06:58 audreyt so you can do whatever you want
06:58 gaal *correctly
06:58 audreyt aye
06:58 audreyt to wit:
06:59 audreyt pugs> :d \(1: 2,3, x=>4)
06:59 audreyt Noop;
06:59 audreyt App &circumfix:\( ) (1:
06:59 audreyt                     2,
06:59 audreyt                     3,
06:59 audreyt                     Syn "named" {"x";
06:59 audreyt                                  4})
06:59 audreyt which is the Correct OPParse.
06:59 gaal ack
06:59 audreyt so nix the Prim line
06:59 gaal but xlating it to feed in the evaluator is pretty bogus, isn't it?
06:59 audreyt and swap Eval out? I'll be back in a bit
06:59 audreyt it is, but we can unbogify it once the Exp supports Capt node
07:00 gaal did't we do that already? EE?
07:00 gaal ah, no :(
07:00 audreyt no.
07:00 gaal because of circularity
07:00 audreyt right.
07:00 gaal which can be fixed on 6.5
07:01 gaal (committed in my branch)
07:01 audreyt which is having build problems on win32 at this moment
07:01 * gaal puts on the broken record
07:01 gaal I will not buy this win32, it is scratched
07:01 audreyt please have patience, I beseech thee. :)
07:03 * gaal greps for 'bloody'
07:04 * audreyt will bbiab
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07:13 agentzh gaal: if there's no autosmoke on feather, then i'll feel less motivated to add smoke results to the HTML pages generated by smartlinks.pl. :(
07:13 agentzh even if it's easy.
07:14 gaal how can I help you get autosmokes?
07:14 agentzh i just want an autoupdated tests.yml or something like that.
07:14 gaal there are two approaches to getting this done:
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07:15 gaal 1. hack audreyt's autobuild and add 'make smoke'
07:15 gaal 2. copy her autobuild and modify it
07:15 gaal #2 is wasteful, a little, because it means an extra pugs build
07:15 gaal but #1 means evalbot suffers
07:15 gaal so I say go for #2, just be sure it's niced
07:16 agentzh timeout issue is also important here.
07:16 gaal you mean for hanging tests?
07:16 agentzh aal:
07:16 agentzh eys
07:16 agentzh yes
07:16 agentzh so i would rather reuse others' smoke results instead to do it myself.
07:17 gaal agentzh: I don't know if anybody still runs autosmokes.
07:17 agentzh i mean manual smoke.
07:17 gaal we used to do it -- nothingmuch, eric, me
07:17 gaal but really feather is the perfect place to run it if you ask me
07:18 gaal okay, wanna add hang detection to the harness maybe?
07:18 agentzh i think so.
07:18 agentzh but i don't have to tuits to add that myself since i've never run smoke on my machine.
07:19 agentzh *the
07:19 gaal "make smoke". :-)
07:19 agentzh yes, i know the command. i just don't want to, since it's terribly time consuming. :)
07:19 gaal it's not *that* bad
07:19 gaal say 45 minutes
07:20 gaal depending on your hardware, of course.
07:21 agentzh gaal: if you can find anyone who likes to setup auto smoke on feather, i'll add smoke result support to smartlinks.pl in less than 1 hour.
07:21 gaal just add it :)
07:21 agentzh i have no data
07:21 gaal what do you need right now? data?
07:21 agentzh do you have a tests.yml?
07:21 gaal ah, larry and I made you some
07:22 gaal scroll back a bit
07:22 agentzh url?
07:22 gaal sec
07:22 gaal http://wall.org/~larry/tests.yml
07:22 agentzh thanks
07:22 gaal sure
07:23 agentzh gaal: one last thing, is this url auto updating?
07:23 gaal nope! but that's orthogonal :)
07:23 agentzh okay
07:27 gaal audreyt: data Capt ... c_feeds :: [Feed a]
07:27 gaal multiple feeds are semicolon based, yes?
07:27 gaal so current parsing can't construct them anyway, and for now I should ignore them?
07:28 gaal s/based/separated
07:28 TimToady ==> and <== also theoretically make feeds
07:29 gaal TimToady: ACK, but not in current pugs :)
07:29 TimToady but yes, zip(@a;@b;@c) is a zip of 3 feeds
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07:29 gaal also they construct one feed each, right?
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07:30 TimToady yes, but the multiple feeds get flattened unless bound to @@
07:30 gaal which Syn is this?
07:30 gaal (gluttony, surely)
07:30 TimToady 9 I think
07:30 gaal thank you
07:37 TreyHarris how do you write zip with :shortest?  i can't make the syntax work
07:38 ayrnieu TreyHarris - how did you try?
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07:40 svnbot6 r12711 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
07:40 svnbot6 r12711 | agentz++ | - changed the confusing var name $links to $linktree in
07:40 svnbot6 r12711 | agentz++ |   the Perl 5 source.
07:41 agentzh there's a bug in smartlinks.pl which results in incomplete HTML outputs. i'll try to fix it first. :/
07:41 agentzh markstos: thanks for reporting this.
07:42 TreyHarris ayrnieu: oh, i went to the source, it's unimpl.  but thanks
07:45 iblechbot joined perl6
07:45 ayrnieu TreyHarris - oh, I was just curious.
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07:54 gaal is \(1;;2) a syntax error?
07:54 gaal (empty feed)
07:55 agentzh oh, there seems to be a bug in File::Temp or Pod::Simple. well, not sure. but now i've fixed smartlinks.pl by avoiding temp files.
07:56 TimToady I don't know why it should be a syntax error.
07:57 gaal TimToady: okay
07:57 gaal I won't make it an evaluation error either then :)(
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08:05 svnbot6 r12712 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
08:05 svnbot6 r12712 | agentz++ | - fixed the HTML truncating bug. it was due to
08:05 svnbot6 r12712 | agentz++ |   non-flushed output buffer.
08:05 svnbot6 r12712 | agentz++ | - removed the dependency File::Temp by using an
08:05 svnbot6 r12712 | agentz++ |   undocumented feature of Pod::Simple::HTML.
08:05 gaal heh, agentzh++
08:05 agentzh :)
08:09 agentzh Juerd: i've just installed YAML::Syck and also upgraded YAML on feather.
08:09 svnbot6 r12713 | audreyt++ | * remove t\rules\rules.t as it's superceded by the spec-based tests in t\p6regex
08:13 agentzh markstos: S29 (and also other synopses) is now complete on feather: http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/S29.html
08:13 lambdabot Title: S29
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08:20 agentzh markstos: smartlinks pointing to syn drafts won't work. this is not a bug, but an intentional feature. or we can discuss it later.
09:10 svnbot6 r12714 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
09:10 svnbot6 r12714 | agentz++ | - added very detailed Pod documentation which explains
09:10 svnbot6 r12714 | agentz++ |   the internal algorithms and data structures we're
09:10 svnbot6 r12714 | agentz++ |   using. so others can understand and/or hack on the
09:10 svnbot6 r12714 | agentz++ |   source code more easily.
09:10 svnbot6 r12715 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
09:10 svnbot6 r12715 | agentz++ | - removed 'mkdir "tmp"' which was legacy.
09:13 svnbot6 r12716 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
09:13 svnbot6 r12716 | agentz++ | - added one "FIXME" comment.
09:15 agentzh supper &
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11:13 agentzh TimToady: oh, sorry, i didn't download tests.yml and now it's not available at http://wall.org/~larry/tests.yml.
11:13 gaal agentzh: I'll send you mine. sec
11:13 agentzh gaal++
11:15 gaal http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/tmp/tests.yml
11:17 agentzh gaal: should i use the OO interface provided by Test::TAP::Model or directly access the data structure in .yml?
11:17 gaal TTM is better
11:17 gaal (TTM is a refectoring of yaml_harness)
11:18 agentzh okay
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11:45 TimToady woops, is there now.
11:45 TimToady zzz &
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11:57 svnbot6 r12717 | polettix++ | [t/builtins/strings/quotemeta.t]
11:57 svnbot6 r12717 | polettix++ |    Worked around the lack of a Config.pm module.
11:57 svnbot6 r12717 | polettix++ |    Marked absence with a todo.
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13:02 pasteling "markstos_" at 12.176.101.89 pasted "bad mojo: What happens when you declare variable with 'my' that has the same name as an arg" (13 lines, 430B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19274
13:02 audreyt markstos_: indeed, that should raise a warning
13:02 audreyt or an error
13:03 audreyt but probably a warning about redeclaration
13:03 markstos_ audreyt: Thanks!
13:03 markstos_ audreyt: So it should warn, but work as expected, with the arg getting a value ?
13:03 audreyt it's conceptually same as
13:03 audreyt sub f { my %p; my %p; }
13:03 markstos_ That's what I thought should happen.
13:03 audreyt which is the same as
13:04 audreyt sub f {my %p; %p}
13:04 audreyt which is not what happened in perl5
13:04 audreyt i.e. in perl6 redecl of the same var in the same storage class
13:04 audreyt is a warning but noop
13:04 markstos_ It was one of those frustrating experiences where I made a reduced test case, but the test case passed..... until I found extra "my" in my code.
13:04 audreyt yeah. a warning should definitely happen
13:04 markstos_ Thanks!
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13:04 audreyt np :) write a test that demonstrates this shadowing?
13:05 markstos_ Here's anothe case that could use a better error-- calling an attribute outside of a class:
13:05 markstos_ ?eval class Foo { };  say %!PARAM.perl;
13:05 evalbot_12717 Error: Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Sub:0x895ea48>
13:05 audreyt aye
13:06 markstos_ It took me a while to figure that out one, too. :)
13:06 markstos_ audreyt: Test case for issue #1 coming up. Care where I file it?
13:07 audreyt t/var/my.t seems logical
13:07 markstos_ coming up.
13:07 audreyt moose!
13:07 markstos_ Is moose the new cool ?
13:09 audreyt or the new hot... or both
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13:13 markstos_ audreyt: What about this second case I reported. Do you agree it should have a better warning? I could write a test for it, too. :)
13:13 svnbot6 r12718 | markstos++ | A new failing test case for my. audreyt confirmed it should work, but emit a warning.
13:16 audreyt well, it's hard to test the presence of a warning
13:16 audreyt maybe it should be a flat-out error
13:16 markstos_ ...until Test::Warn is ported. :)
13:17 audreyt so let's make it that, and you can test that it would be a compile time error :)
13:17 markstos_ I think a syntax error for the second case would be reasonable.
13:17 audreyt test for that then.
13:17 zgh joined perl6
13:17 markstos_ I use eval_ok() for that ?
13:17 audreyt sure
13:17 markstos_ coming up.
13:18 gaal hey audreyt. got some Eval code but it's not finished...
13:19 gaal some coercions I'm not sure about, too
13:19 audreyt does it compile? :)
13:19 gaal nope :)
13:19 audreyt check it in anyway? :)
13:19 gaal let me scp up a patch
13:21 gaal http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/capt.0.patch
13:23 audreyt 404
13:23 gaal oops http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/tmp/capt.0.patch
13:24 gaal I wonder if there's a better way to manage this double-accum pattern, this is the second time I'm encountering it
13:24 zgh joined perl6
13:25 gaal the first two args to argsFeed are accumulators, the third is the actual argstack, here used only with one semi-separated-section (we need a name for that!)
13:26 gaal the first accum is the total Feed list, the second is the currently constructed Feed, Maybed because \(1;;2) is legal.
13:26 gaal and it's in Eval because I'm assuming this should reduce.
13:27 audreyt that's correct
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13:28 clkao mmmm onsen
13:29 onsen hello :)
13:31 svnbot6 r12719 | markstos++ | New test: calling a trait outside of a class should be a syntax error.
13:31 svnbot6 r12719 | markstos++ | ( I /think/ I got the syntax right for testing this... )
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13:36 audreyt gaal: looking at the patch now
13:37 gaal cool
13:37 audreyt (sorry, on a semi-defunct win32 work env)
13:37 audreyt I had to download patch ;)
13:37 gaal shall I paste the errors?
13:37 gaal heh, sorry :)
13:38 audreyt no, I got it now
13:38 agentzh gaal: i've implemented that feature.
13:38 audreyt compiling
13:39 gaal /a.{6}/++
13:39 audreyt it seems to compile just fine
13:39 audreyt after a one line change that is
13:39 TimToady btw, not expecting a fix soon, but my Test.pm.yml makes my pugs segv, even if complete tree is regened.
13:40 audreyt !
13:40 audreyt you mean you cannot run smoke anymore?
13:40 TimToady I can run the part of it that doesn't use Test.pm :/
13:40 audreyt heh
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13:40 gaal TimToady: can you regen the .yml itself? rm blib6/lib/Test.pm.yml ; make blib6/lib/Test.pm.yml
13:40 zgh joined perl6
13:40 audreyt howlong has it been segfaulting?
13:41 TimToady since sometime yesterday
13:41 TimToady I'll try the specific regen, but certainly a full make won't work.
13:41 gaal there was a strictness fix in hssyck, right?
13:41 audreyt in drift yaml hat is
13:41 audreyt reverting that
13:42 audreyt actually, I don't even have a full svk mirror yet :/
13:42 audreyt gaal: can you revert it? should be indriftyaml
13:42 gaal sure
13:42 audreyt gaal++
13:43 TimToady complains about unexpected " at line 298
13:43 audreyt gaal: you don't need separate IValue and Pure instances
13:43 audreyt instance ICoercible P ValCapt where asStr _ = return (cast "<capt>") -- XXX
13:44 audreyt is sufficient
13:44 audreyt I'll commit in a bit
13:44 gaal TimToady: line 298 of Test.pm?
13:45 TimToady yes, print "not " unless $cond;
13:45 TimToady print "not " unless $cond;
13:46 TimToady apparently from some previous line
13:46 audreyt weird, I can't quite duplicate that
13:46 f0rth joined perl6
13:46 audreyt and it works once you remove .yml?
13:46 audreyt oh wait, it must be unrelated, if it's a parse error
13:47 TimToady I don't believe the error message shows with a full make, but a partial .yml would explain the segv...
13:47 gaal um, I'll hold off with the revert patch then...
13:48 gaal maybe we need a checksum to protect against this then.
13:49 TimToady ./pugs -c ext/Test/lib/Test.pm works
13:49 TimToady fails if I put -CParse-YAML in
13:50 gaal asYAML [ver, desc, check dump, dump] where dump = asYAML ast
13:50 zgh joined perl6
13:50 gaal hmm, ok, let me ci the revert.
13:52 gaal TimToady: please try w/12720
13:52 svnbot6 r12720 | gaal++ | * revert audreyt++'s r12647, to see if it fixes TimToady++'s Test.pm.yml segfault
13:52 gaal brb
13:53 TimToady compiling
13:54 agentzh an HTML-related question: <td><pre>...</pre></td> results in unbearable big table cells. how can i get rid of it?
13:55 agentzh i've tried many methods, but saddly they don't work.
13:55 TimToady now I get pugs: user error (no tag found)
13:56 agentzh TimToady: please regenerate your prelude.pm.yml
13:56 gaal rm the yml file and regen it manually again?
13:56 agentzh i've ever got this error too.
13:56 Juerd agentzh: Don't use <pre>.
13:56 agentzh Juerd: then what should i use?
13:56 gaal "regen it again" is superfluously reduntant, and also repeats itself
13:56 agentzh that's code line, you know. :)
13:56 TimToady same parse error, unexp "
13:57 Juerd agentzh: Just expand \n to <br>, and whitespace to &nbsp; yourself.
13:57 TimToady looking at prelude now
13:57 agentzh Juerd: and also set a proper code font?
13:57 Juerd agentzh: Obviously
13:57 gaal agentzh: "<code>"
13:57 Juerd agentzh: Don't change every horizontal whitespace to nbsp, or you'll have the same effect as pre.
13:58 agentzh Juerd: when using <code>?
13:58 Juerd agentzh: In leading whitespace, substitute every odd, and in other whitespace every even.
13:58 agentzh Juerd: ahh
13:59 gaal audreyt: doing that change you suggested with IValue etc. didn't work
13:59 gaal looking forward to your commit ;)
13:59 Juerd e.g. s/^(  )/"&nbsp; " x (length($1) / 2)/gem; s/  / &nbsp;/g
13:59 Juerd Or something like that.
13:59 Juerd (untested)
13:59 agentzh Juerd: thank you. will use that. :)
14:00 TimToady blew away both .pm.yml files, same problem
14:00 Juerd Won't work, delemiter error.
14:00 gaal /^(  *)/
14:00 Juerd Eh, right
14:03 TimToady biab &
14:04 gaal looks like a 6.4 issue, Test.pm worksforme
14:04 gaal (but then what triggered it?)
14:05 wolverian alternatively, use xhtml2 and its <l> element for each code line.
14:05 wolverian (no, I'm not being entirely serious. I wish, though..)
14:07 gaal ah, oops, against trunk Code.hs is still included. beh
14:08 wolverian I suppose <l> wouldn't help, in fact. it doesn't create block structure in the dom. oh well.
14:09 * audreyt waits for svk to fully catch up the repo history...
14:10 gaal weird, touching Val and recompiling didn't fix it.
14:10 SamB rm the .hi instead?
14:11 gaal SamB: the module was recompiled
14:11 gaal but the proposed fix didn't work
14:12 audreyt anymoose... finally got it to sync fully
14:12 audreyt committing
14:12 gaal yay
14:17 audreyt gaal: I handled the argsFeed case incorrectly it seems
14:17 audreyt the feeds only recognizes invocants
14:17 gaal could certianly have been a bug of mine...
14:17 svnbot6 r12721 | audreyt++ | Gaal's \(...) Capture-literal patch, hacked slightly so it compiles.
14:17 audreyt argsFeed fAcc _ [] = return fAcc
14:17 audreyt please fix that line appropriately
14:18 audreyt dinner, bbiab
14:28 araujo morning
14:29 markstos_ Good morning araujo.
14:29 araujo morning markstos_ :-)
14:31 gaal yay, it works (for positionals. fixing nameds.)
14:32 audreyt gaal: it didn't compile as you were missing three fromVal
14:32 audreyt that converts oldval to newval
14:32 audreyt I think that's all
14:32 audreyt TimToady: "svn di ext" shows nothing?:)
14:32 gaal and bugs in argsFeed now :) turns out this is bogus: let (VStr key) = castV key'
14:33 gaal but what's in key'? or shall I fromVal it too?
14:33 TimToady audreyt: no output
14:33 gaal (I was sure it _was_ a VStr by :D....)
14:33 audreyt Syn "named [VStr key, ] <-
14:33 audreyt would do
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14:34 audreyt TimToady: I can't seem to duplicate this on feather nor win32 here...
14:35 audreyt rm blib6/lib/Test.pm.yml ; make blib6/lib/Test.pm.yml
14:35 audreyt does this also fail?
14:37 TimToady yes, unexp " line 298
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14:37 audreyt does "svn di" show anything?
14:37 araujo markstos_, i am in (with a commit bit!) now :-)
14:37 gaal well, it's better but the reduction's still a bit off. committing...
14:37 TimToady nothing
14:38 TimToady not surprising, considered I blew it all away and redownloaded
14:39 audreyt extremely puzzling, then
14:39 markstos_ araujo: Great! You must have found someone else to give one out then.
14:40 TimToady *whistles*
14:40 araujo markstos_, blame TimToady ;-)
14:40 araujo hi TimToady !
14:40 audreyt so if you do have a correct blib6/lib/Test.pm.yml
14:40 TimToady good morning, hope you got more sleep than I did last night...
14:40 audreyt such as can be downloaded from http://perlcabal.org/~audreyt/tmp/Test.pm.yml
14:40 markstos_ araujo: do you have a first task in mind to commit then ?
14:40 audreyt put into blib6/lib/ and "touch"ed
14:41 audreyt does it make smoke work?
14:41 araujo TimToady, sort of :-)
14:41 araujo markstos_, not really .. well i was thinking to update the AUTHORS file
14:42 araujo i just got up, and i need to find my way around all this code first :-)
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14:43 lichtkind hi PerlJam
14:44 lichtkind can anybody explain why on $*IN there is alsways an = = ? and not a =
14:44 gaal captures landed
14:44 ayrnieu lichtkind - one of them is an operator.
14:45 lichtkind ayrnieu thanks but what operator coul it be if its also =
14:46 integral "$a = =$*IN", the first = is &infix:<=> for assignment,  the second = is &prefix:<=> for fetching a value from the iterator
14:46 TimToady audreyt: still a segv
14:49 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ | * Capture construction, supporting invocants, positional and
14:49 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |   (possibly recurring) named args:
14:49 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |   pugs> \(1: 2, :a<b> :a<b>)
14:49 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |   VPure (CaptMeth
14:49 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |       { c_invocant = VPure (IFinite 1)
14:49 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |       , c_feeds = [ MkFeed
14:49 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |           { f_positionals = [VPure (IFinite 2)]
14:49 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |           , f_nameds = fromList
14:49 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |             [ ("a", [VPure (MkStr "b"), VPure (MkStr "b") ])]
14:50 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |           }
14:50 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |         ]
14:50 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |       })
14:50 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |   This doesn't seem to reduce everything correctly yet, e.g.
14:50 svnbot6 r12722 | gaal++ |   \(1: ("a"~"b") => "c") breaks.
14:50 TimToady audreyt: in fact, the .pm.yml I generate is identical to the one you sent me
14:50 audreyt hm. I'm puzzled
14:50 audreyt the segv happens after the parse error
14:51 audreyt or before?
14:51 lichtkind thanks integral thyt where one of the missing peaces for my perl6 talk
14:51 * audreyt isn't quite sure what's the error sequence
14:51 audreyt gaal: that is entirely correct;
14:51 audreyt "a"~"b"=>c
14:51 audreyt is not a named param
14:51 audreyt in fact, neither is "a"=>"c".
14:51 audreyt only a=>"c" is
14:51 integral lichtkind: hmm?
14:52 gaal how do you programmatically select a named param then?
14:52 audreyt [,]...
14:52 audreyt would be the only way
14:52 lichtkind integral ?
14:52 audreyt which I think is a feature, actually :)
14:52 markstos_ It looks like $SIG{__WARN__} is not spec'ed for Perl6? Does something replace it? (yet?)
14:52 integral lichtkind: I didn't understand what you meant
14:52 gaal I'm not sure I agree :)
14:53 audreyt gaal: consider that positionals can also be passed by name
14:53 audreyt gaal: it is quite nice to be able to trnanslate those to positionals on compile time
14:53 audreyt and invalidate bogus calls without requiring runtime dispatch...
14:53 audreyt "a b c" => 'x'
14:53 diakopter joined perl6
14:54 lichtkind integral your answer were one of the last missing sentences of my perl6 talk in 2 weeks in frankfurt
14:54 audreyt would be an example; you cannot have $::("a b c") declared as a param
14:54 TimToady maybe I should just try a reboot.  could have a corrupted memory image persisting or something.
14:54 integral lichtkind: oh!
14:54 gaal okay, okay. so say I want a mona^H^H^H^Hset of combinators for captures -- at the least, paste inplace and paste add-semisection
14:54 TimToady biab &
14:54 audreyt TimToady: if you're on win32, that might actually fix things...
14:54 TimToady :P
14:55 audreyt TimToady: but I'm not sure I understand the sequence
14:55 audreyt when you "make blib6/lib/Test.pm.yml"
14:55 audreyt it's generated, but then segfaulted?
14:55 audreyt and when you actually run the tests, it fails with parse error?
14:55 lichtkind integral have to go im in icafe .. thanks
14:56 lichtkind by @ all
14:56 audreyt gaal: it's [,]...
14:56 gaal \([,] $capta ; $captb) ? \([,] $capta, $captb)
14:56 lichtkind your grat
14:56 lichtkind great
14:56 audreyt \([,] =$capta, =$captb)
14:56 audreyt is the currently specced way
14:56 gaal what's =$capt?
14:56 audreyt it's a shorthand for
14:56 audreyt $$capt, @$capt, %$capt
14:57 gaal ooh
14:57 audreyt when occuring after [,]
14:57 audreyt (bbiab)
15:06 agentzh joined perl6
15:19 agentzh gaal, Juerd: <code> with interweaved spaces and `&nbsp;` results in exactly what i want. thank you!
15:24 * gaal boings
15:26 TimToady reboot didn't help, so if something is corrupt, it's on the disk.
15:27 TimToady will now upgrade 6.4.1 to 6.4.2 (available via yum)
15:27 Limbic_Region joined perl6
15:27 TimToady (pity they don't have 6.5 yet...)
15:28 gaal TimToady: there's a binary build of 6.5 you can fetch
15:28 svnbot6 r12723 | markstos++ | Add a cross reference to help people looking for docs on references to learn about Captures.
15:28 svnbot6 r12724 | gaal++ | * Now that Captures are handled in Eval, revert the changes in Prim
15:28 svnbot6 r12724 | gaal++ |   from r12474 that were neither helpful nor pretty.
15:29 gaal I put one under my home dir
15:29 gaal all I needed was readline 4
15:29 TimToady yeah, I know, but that's work. :)
15:31 audreyt feather is also 6.4.1
15:31 audreyt so I really doubt it's ghcvers problem
15:31 Limbic_Region morning audreyt
15:31 Limbic_Region or rather - evening your time
15:31 TimToady but if my ghc is corrupt somehow, upgrade will fix
15:31 audreyt greetings
15:32 audreyt that is true
15:33 gaal TimToady's box was hax0red by ruby zealots?
15:33 svnbot6 r12725 | gaal++ | * Add note about Capture FAQ
15:33 svnbot6 r12726 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
15:33 svnbot6 r12726 | agentz++ | - implemented the smoke result rendering feature
15:33 svnbot6 r12726 | agentz++ |   requested by gaal++
15:33 svnbot6 r12726 | agentz++ |   you can now use the --test-res option to add smoke
15:33 svnbot6 r12726 | agentz++ |   results into the HTML:
15:33 svnbot6 r12726 | agentz++ |     $ util/smartlinks.pl --test-res=tests.yml t/*/*.t t/*/*/*.t
15:33 gaal whee!
15:33 audreyt wheeeeee!
15:33 gaal agentzh++ agentzh++ agentzh++ :)
15:33 audreyt wow this is quickly turning into something most awesome
15:34 * Limbic_Region also likes the way 6.5 compiles - much better look and feel
15:34 agentzh gaal: not yet add --test-res option to feather's script, since there's no autoupdating tests.yml. :/
15:34 gaal now to set up autosmokes on feather again :)
15:35 agentzh i'm feeling quite comfortable with the smoke-result-rendered HTML-fied Synopses. :)
15:35 agentzh they look very nice~~~
15:35 gaal demo?
15:35 gaal oh, never mind, I can gen one myself :)
15:35 agentzh here's a demo:
15:35 agentzh http://svn.berlios.de/svnroot/repos/unisimu/Perl/Syn/S02.html
15:35 lambdabot Title: S02
15:35 gaal even better :P
15:36 agentzh :)
15:36 gaal lol pugs' commit rss feed doesn't escape html, so the commit log that said :a<b> threw the rest of the message into bold
15:36 agentzh skipped tests are currently not marked at all.
15:36 agentzh and TODO tests are marked as normal tests.
15:37 agentzh (i'm using actual_ok of Test::TAP::Model::Subtest)
15:37 gaal *very* pretty :)
15:37 agentzh gaal: thanks!
15:37 Limbic_Region audreyt - still on Win32?
15:37 Juerd agentzh: "5 √, 3 ×" in the clickable links?
15:37 agentzh Juerd: pardon?
15:38 Juerd agentzh: test result stats
15:38 Juerd Per snippet :)
15:38 agentzh ah, you mean a small summary, right?
15:38 Juerd So you don't have to click-open everything to see what failed
15:38 Juerd Yes
15:38 audreyt Limbic_Region: yes. I figured out the nested atomicity problem
15:38 Juerd s/to see what failed/to look for failed tests/
15:38 agentzh Hmm, that's easy...
15:38 audreyt and found a glaring bug in one of the examples
15:38 audreyt Limbic_Region: fixing it now
15:38 agentzh Juerd: thanks for suggesting this. :)
15:39 Juerd agentzh: Thanks for creating this :)
15:39 agentzh hehe
15:39 Limbic_Region yay - that cleans up 6 more examples
15:40 Limbic_Region or rather - potentially, there may be other problems
15:40 * Limbic_Region wonders if he was successful in getting eric256 to come back and fix his examples/games/wizard.pl
15:40 svnbot6 r12727 | gaal++ | * make pass and fail marks a litle more prominent
15:41 audreyt it can be reduced to "sub f {} my &g; sub h {} 1;"
15:41 audreyt ?eval sub f {} my &g; sub h {} 1;
15:41 evalbot_12726 (no output)
15:41 * audreyt praises easy access to the stack trace
15:41 gaal the haskell stack trace?
15:42 audreyt yeah +RTS -xc
15:42 gaal after make fastprof yes?
15:43 audreyt just prof
15:43 gaal er yes. I need to buy some RAM before I can do that :-)
15:44 agentzh gaal: personally i don't quite like bold marks. :)
15:44 Limbic_Region it is amazing what 6 years will do WRT prices
15:44 Juerd It's amazing they still profit.
15:45 agentzh gaal: but i'm fine with that. :)
15:45 gaal agentzh: ah, I didn't mean to start an argument about visualization.. the green just seemed a little faint for me...
15:45 Limbic_Region Juerd - I think I have a hunch as to why that is - at least with WinTel PCs
15:45 Juerd Limbic_Region: Which is? No overproduction, ever?
15:45 Limbic_Region I have spent two days cleaning up crap trial ware software they install
15:45 agentzh gaal: okay. :)
15:45 Limbic_Region I am thinking they have SW sponsors
15:45 Juerd I see chips for sale now, that were manufactured in 2004. That must be a terrible loss.
15:46 Juerd Limbic_Region: Hm, seriously?
15:46 Limbic_Region yes
15:46 Juerd I sell Wintel boxes with lots of open source software :)
15:46 Limbic_Region in fact, there is at least one lawsuit over it
15:47 Limbic_Region in any case, this laptop (my wife's) is much bigger and badder than my desktop (which was top of the line when I bought it) and cost literrally 1/5 the price
15:47 Juerd Yea
15:47 Juerd When I think of my first laptop...
15:48 Juerd My current laptop is expensive, but costs the same as that entry level laptop back then.
15:49 gaal hey, where are captures actually parsed ruleVal shouldn't be enough...
15:49 Limbic_Region well, the nice thing is that I should now be able to do a little hacking outside of work
15:49 TimToady agentzh: allow me to also say that I'm exceedingly impressed.
15:50 gaal aha! that's for the noncircumfix case, and indeed falls short:
15:50 gaal ?eval \42
15:50 evalbot_12727 \42
15:50 agentzh TimToady: oh, i'm also impressed to hear that. ;-)
15:50 gaal fixing :)
15:50 Limbic_Region agentzh++
15:50 Juerd Why do people in American movies stress what they say by announcing the number of words?
15:50 agentzh Limbic_Region: :)
15:50 Juerd "One word: ...", "Three words: ..."
15:50 Juerd To me, this is extremely silly :)
15:50 gaal crude error detection protocol?
15:51 Juerd gaal: Heh
15:51 TimToady It might be related to the game of charades.
15:51 Juerd That's in bad American comedies. "Two words: ..." "That's three words"
15:51 TimToady but culturally I think it's a form of golf
15:51 Juerd TimToady: Adding a checksum makes it *longer*
15:52 TimToady "I can express that idea in fewer words than you can..."
15:52 Juerd Heh
15:52 TimToady it's meta-info, so doesn't count. :)
15:52 Limbic_Region Juerd, after thinking about it for 30 seconds, I think it has to do with our need for instant gratification
15:52 dolmen joined perl6
15:52 svnbot6 r12728 | markstos++ | add commented-out links to FAQ from new docs index.
15:52 svnbot6 r12728 | markstos++ | Needs some help (from agentz?) to actually make the pod2html conversion happen.
15:52 Limbic_Region when we see a movie review - we don't want two read a couple of paragraphs
15:52 Limbic_Region we want
15:52 Juerd Limbic_Region: Whoa. Explain that, please :)
15:52 Juerd Ah
15:52 Limbic_Region it can be summed up in 5 words ...
15:52 Limbic_Region go see this movie today
15:52 Limbic_Region etc
15:52 Juerd In a movie review, maybe. But I'm talking about the movies themselves...
15:53 TimToady there's a one-word metaform from Mr Rogers: "Can you say ___?"
15:53 Limbic_Region Juerd - I think it stems from that
15:53 Juerd I see
15:53 Limbic_Region but again, that's only 30 seconds of thinking about it
15:53 agentzh markstos: looking
15:53 Juerd Limbic_Region: That's 28 more than I have
15:53 Juerd I'm lazy. I don't think about such things; I ask on IRC :P
15:53 Limbic_Region heh
15:54 Limbic_Region well, I like to think of myself as not being as bad as my fellow americans
15:54 TimToady It's a form of intellectual snobbery to be able to sum something up in very few words, I think.  But you have to call your shots, like in pool.
15:54 Limbic_Region but I really have a hard time adjusting to the relaxed culture of the Philippines when I visit
15:54 * Limbic_Region agrees with that too
15:55 Limbic_Region My time is too valuable to waste explaining something to you so hear it is in N words
15:55 * Juerd is often able to sum up very complex questions in one word
15:55 Juerd "Why?"
15:55 gaal \(my $x)   # allowed?
15:55 audreyt sure
15:55 audreyt my$x is allows whwnever $x is allowed in exprs
15:55 Juerd Oh, gaal does that too :)
15:56 gaal so ruleCapture should c <- parseTerm, basically, recursively
15:56 TimToady the upgrade seems to have fixed my problem.  so must have been disk corruption, I guess, unless 6.4.2 fixed it somehow...
15:56 audreyt not likely, seeing feather has 6.4.1 that works...
15:56 audreyt though the word "disk corruption" sounds alarming
15:56 Juerd Oh, right, I was upgrading feather. Thanks for reminding
15:56 gaal maybe 6.4.2 fixed the disk corruption
15:56 Juerd 584 upgraded, 15 newly installed, 3 to remove and 3 not upgraded.
15:56 Juerd Need to get 343MB of archives.
15:56 Juerd After unpacking 18.0MB of additional disk space will be used.
15:56 * audreyt groans
15:56 gaal the Glorious Glasgow etc.
15:57 TimToady well, maybe it was just a cosmic ray.
15:58 Limbic_Region TimToady - in your cursory investigation of all the examples that were failing to parse, were most (if not all) the golf examples due to white space issues?
16:00 xinming joined perl6
16:00 agentzh markstos: you meant the link pointed to S26.html?
16:04 markstos_ agentz: I'd like that created, but I also just added some hopeful links to the FAQ PODs
16:04 agentzh url?
16:04 agentzh for example?
16:04 markstos_ one sec.
16:05 markstos_ The PODs are here:
16:05 markstos_ http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/docs/Perl6/FAQ/
16:05 lambdabot Title: Revision 12728: /docs/Perl6/FAQ
16:05 agentzh markstos: ah, i see. thanks.
16:05 markstos_ I guessed they would have HTML counter parts at FAQ/Capture.html, and FAQ/FUD.html
16:06 agentzh L<FAQ::Capture>?
16:06 markstos_ The HTML versions will make them a lot more visible.
16:06 agentzh markstos: just like L<S02/...>
16:06 markstos_ agentzh: Why not use the use full module name, which would be more normal: Perl6::FAQ::Capture.
16:07 agentzh i'm fine with that. :)
16:07 markstos_ But S02 corresponds to Perl6::Spec::Syntax.
16:07 markstos_ Great.
16:07 agentzh just use the syntax, and i'll look into that later.
16:07 markstos_ Thanks.
16:08 agentzh i'm more motivated to fix things when they're broken.
16:08 agentzh so feel free to leave links broken. don't comment them out.
16:08 agentzh because i'm lazy. ;)
16:08 gaal is it okay to fold \42 to &circumfix:<\\( )> inside Parser?
16:11 gaal to put it another way, is \42 precisely \(42), for all values of 42?
16:11 markstos_ agentz. Ok. :)
16:12 agentzh markstos: btw, i'm not using pod2html. i'm using podhtm.pl living in the Pugs repos (util/podhtm.pl) :)
16:13 audreyt gaal: no.
16:13 svnbot6 r12729 | markstos++ | Go ahead and link directly to .pod FAQ files, until HTMLization happens.
16:13 gaal aw.
16:13 audreyt gaal: \42 is prefix:\ on 42, \(42) is circumfix \( )
16:13 audreyt prec is diff
16:14 markstos_ hmm. can't connect to apache on feather now. http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/
16:14 * markstos_ should really do the dishes now.
16:14 gaal audreyt: okay, so ruleCapture can be retired completely yes?
16:14 markstos_ wifi in the kitchen is dangerous.
16:14 audreyt aye
16:14 gaal good
16:16 TimToady Limbic_Region: yes, they were mostly place where P6 requires whitespace to keep postfixes straight from infixes or statement blocks.
16:16 Limbic_Region ok - that I think I can fix
16:16 Limbic_Region on my own that is
16:16 TimToady if($x){.say} is illegal two ways.
16:17 zgh joined perl6
16:17 * Limbic_Region listens intently
16:17 Limbic_Region while enjoying my breakfast that is
16:17 TimToady if($x) parses as a sub call.
16:17 Juerd Oh my
16:17 TimToady and if($x){.say} parses as a hash subscript on the sub call
16:17 Juerd Some people won't like this :)
16:17 TimToady gee, I've never heard that sentiment before. :)
16:18 Juerd Impressive :)
16:18 agentzh Juerd: feather's website is down?
16:18 Juerd I personally am glad with these changes. More horizontal whitespace would be great for many programmers.
16:18 Juerd agentzh: Could be. It's in the middle of a dist-upgrade
16:18 agentzh okay. ;)
16:18 Juerd agentzh: I never check if things work while it's upgrading. I check afterwards :)
16:18 TimToady I was actually kind of delighted to see how much clarity it forced on the golf examples.  :)
16:19 Limbic_Region agentzh - yep, it's down not just you
16:19 Juerd TimToady: Don't worry. People WILL find other ways of golfing :)=
16:19 agentzh LR: i hear that. :)
16:19 Limbic_Region well, my plan was just to whitespace everything until it started working and then remove them one by one to see when they started failing
16:19 Limbic_Region but perhaps that isn't such a good idea
16:20 audreyt on my first perlgolf tournament, I asked whether non-ascii characters count as one character...
16:20 Juerd Who's going to YAPC::Europe btw?
16:20 audreyt and perl6 golfers will certainly take advantage that the nonascii << counts as one char
16:20 svnbot6 r12730 | gaal++ | * fix \42. still orz: my $x; \$x
16:20 svnbot6 r12730 | gaal++ | * retire old Parser code for Captures
16:21 gaal I don't quite see why toVV' is entered in \my $x...
16:21 gaal still looking.
16:21 TimToady audreyt: did you see my spec changes to "is" yesterday?
16:21 Limbic_Region I did
16:21 Limbic_Region TimToady++
16:21 Limbic_Region that one actually made sense to me
16:21 Limbic_Region which is a scary thought
16:21 Juerd Nobody going to YAPC here? :(
16:22 miyagawa_ Juerd: i will.
16:22 audreyt Limbic_Region: your brain is being larrified
16:22 Juerd Yay, I won't be the only one from here there then :)
16:22 audreyt TimToady: I noticed, and looks sane
16:22 TimToady et tu, audrey
16:23 gaal audreyt: if you have a profbuild handy, could you stacktrace \my $x please? r12730
16:23 Juerd Je pense que c'est "toi" :)
16:24 audreyt gaal: sure. a sec
16:24 Juerd Doesn't feather have that?
16:24 * audreyt is wrangling with inlinePerformSTM
16:24 Limbic_Region audreyt - well, that may be but more likely it means I am once again paying enough attention to do more than just ask annoying questions that are answered in the synopses and complain about problems without offering to help fix them
16:25 Limbic_Region audreyt - that's the problem I reported?
16:25 Psyche^ joined perl6
16:25 audreyt Limbic_Region: nested atomically? yes
16:25 gaal I rememeber inlinePerformIO, but what's the STM counterpart?
16:26 audreyt ditto with atomic
16:26 audreyt bbiab again
16:26 audreyt gaal: <Pugs.AST.Internals.toVV',Pugs.Eval.argsFeed,Pugs.Eval.reduceApp,Pugs.Eval.reduc
16:26 audreyt e,Pugs.Eval.evaluate,Pugs.Eval.evaluateMain,Pugs.Run.runEnv,Pugs.runProgramWith,
16:26 audreyt Pugs.doRun,Pugs.run',Pugs.run,Pugs.Run.runWithArgs,Pugs.mainWith,Pugs.pugsMain,P
16:26 audreyt ugs.CAF><Pugs.AST.Internals.toVV',Pugs.Eval.argsFeed,Pugs.Eval.reduceApp,Pugs.Ev
16:26 audreyt al.reduce,Pugs.Eval.evaluate,Pugs.Eval.evaluateMain,Pugs.Run.runEnv,Pugs.runProg
16:26 audreyt ramWith,Pugs.doRun,Pugs.run',Pugs.run,Pugs.Run.runWithArgs,Pugs.mainWith,Pugs.pu
16:26 gaal heh
16:26 audreyt gsMain,Pugs.CAF>pugs-prof: don't know how to toVV': VUndef
16:26 gaal thanks
16:27 gaal Juerd: have what, profpugs? don't think so
16:27 Juerd Why not? :)
16:27 gaal smokepugs is a sweeter fruit and we don't have that :)
16:29 agentzh Juerd: stat info added: http://svn.berlios.de/svnroot/repos/unisimu/Perl/Syn/S02.html
16:29 lambdabot Title: S02
16:30 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
16:32 Juerd agentzh: Yay
16:32 agentzh :)
16:32 Juerd agentzh: s/--/&mdash;/ :)
16:32 agentzh okay, fixing
16:33 gaal /g :)
16:33 gaal um no actually
16:33 gaal not on code.
16:33 svnbot6 r12731 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
16:33 svnbot6 r12731 | agentz++ | - added test stat to links' names:
16:33 svnbot6 r12731 | agentz++ |     7 ?\226?\136?\154, 1 ?\195?\151
16:33 svnbot6 r12731 | agentz++ |   which was suggested by Juerd++
16:33 gaal ah, it's just on the stats. ok ok
16:34 agentzh committing
16:35 Limbic_Region heh - agentzh, when I loaded the S02.html link and minimized it - I read the S02 as 502 and thought there was an http error
16:35 agentzh LR: (?)
16:36 Limbic_Region oh nothing - just eyes playing tricks on me
16:36 agentzh okay. :)
16:38 svnbot6 r12732 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
16:38 svnbot6 r12732 | agentz++ | - on stats info: s/--/&mdash;/ per Juerd++
16:39 agentzh the demo page is also updated. :)
16:40 agentzh so much for tonight. gotta run to bed...
16:40 agentzh night, all~~~  &
16:40 agentzh left perl6
16:41 audreyt Juerd: apache is down for upgrading, right?
16:41 Juerd audreyt: Yes. Due to a design mistake in Debian, it's down longer than necessary.
16:41 Juerd It could come up any moment
16:44 Juerd Setting up apache (1.3.34-4) ...
16:44 Juerd Starting apache 1.3 web server....
16:47 markstos_ it's up now.
16:47 svnbot6 r12733 | gaal++ | * '\my $moose' now works.
16:50 gaal Signatures up next, I suppose
16:50 svnbot6 r12734 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
16:50 svnbot6 r12734 | agentz++ | - turn off stats info when smoke data is not available.
16:50 Juerd Can roles initialize?
16:51 Juerd i.e. Can Blah do something on "$foo does Blah;"?
16:52 Juerd For web programming, it'd be nice to have "$param<file> does Upload" and "$param<url> does ParamArray", or something alike.
16:52 audreyt runtime does?
16:52 audreyt it would trigger BUILD, I think.
16:54 TimToady the BUILD in the role
16:54 TimToady don't want to reBUILD the existing object
16:54 audreyt aye
16:55 audreyt was just too lazy to type down the whole line :)
16:55 TimToady I was just channeling you. :)
16:55 audreyt et tu...
16:55 TimToady et three
16:57 markstos_ linguists...
16:58 gaal audreyt: parsing :(), plan of antler. is circumfix:<:( )> enough? what parses typeconstraints?
16:58 gaal ooh!
16:58 gaal ?eval Int
16:59 evalbot_12734 ::Int
16:59 gaal that's a start :)
16:59 audreyt need prolly to switch to another parser for :()
17:00 gaal parameterize makeCircumOp?
17:01 Limbic_Region wow, that STM problem must be a doozy
17:01 Limbic_Region or perhaps I am just too used to - found the bug......fixed
17:02 audreyt it's very complicated :)
17:02 audreyt note that it only occurs when &f is used in parsing without a content
17:02 audreyt i.e.
17:02 audreyt sub f {} my &g := &f; sub h {} 1;
17:02 audreyt breaks bug
17:02 audreyt sub f {} my &g ::= &f; sub h {} 1;
17:02 audreyt works
17:03 audreyt reason is that the content of &g is consulted during parsing
17:03 audreyt but it has no content (yet)
17:03 audreyt so it goes to create a new storage cell for it
17:03 audreyt but we are currently already in the parser, which is another atomic transaction, and so it triggered explosion
17:03 clkao what's ::= ?
17:04 clkao and is there :::= ?
17:04 audreyt clkao: BEGIN time binding
17:04 audreyt no.
17:04 gaal BEING { := }
17:04 audreyt LIGHTNESS { := }
17:04 clkao ok
17:04 gaal AND NOTHINGNESS
17:04 Juerd TimToady, audreyt: thanks.
17:06 audreyt np :)
17:07 Juerd my $foo, $bar := *%param; will be GREAT for web programming :)
17:08 Juerd And if coercion can be controlled, my @foo, $bar, Upload $baz :)
17:08 Juerd (Or are parens needed with my?)
17:08 TimToady yes
17:08 Juerd my (@foo, $bar, Upload $baz) := *%param; then?
17:09 Juerd Combined with "where", this is absolutely wonderful.
17:09 TimToady MAIN binding works the same way
17:09 * TimToady needs to wander off &
17:10 gaal ok looks like end of cycles for me for today, I'm off to a bike ride
17:10 gaal have fun y'all
17:10 Juerd Uhhuh. I'm looking for something that doesn't require a named sub, though: PHP-like programming. (No matter how much I dislike it, I must admit that for smaller projects it's much easier to both create and maintain)
17:10 markstos_ bikerides++
17:13 audreyt gaal: have fun :)
17:15 gaal thanks! &
17:16 TimToady oh, it's [,]%param now, now *%param
17:16 TimToady *not
17:16 diakopter [,]not
17:16 xinming joined perl6
17:17 TimToady [,]now
17:17 TimToady *not
17:17 TimToady :)
17:18 markstos_ Is that the new slurp notation for subroutine params?
17:18 markstos_ s/slurp/slurpy/
17:18 audreyt subroutine arguments.
17:18 audreyt params still use *.
17:18 audreyt (params are in signatures)
17:19 justatheory joined perl6
17:19 * markstos_ still ponders the difference quietly.
17:19 audreyt sub f ($param) {}
17:19 * markstos_ likes examples. :)
17:20 audreyt f($arg)
17:20 audreyt makes some sense? :)
17:20 markstos_ Yes!
17:21 markstos_ I had always thought the two as interchangable concepts, at least in Perl5, which doesn't really use signatures the same way.
17:21 markstos_ Well, when that part my code breaks after a pugs upgrade, I'll know what to do...
17:21 wolverian looppeel
17:22 wolverian er, ww
17:22 * markstos_ hunts and gathers some lunch. &
17:23 audreyt Limbic_Region: also "nmake ghci" doesn't yet work on win32
17:23 audreyt so my repl loop is 120 seconds
17:23 audreyt as opposed to 12
17:23 audreyt which significantly affects my productivity :)
17:25 audreyt Limbic_Region: but it's fixed all the same...
17:26 mako132_ joined perl6
17:27 audreyt and I really need to fix ghci for win32 tomorrow if I'm to actually do hacking here...
17:27 audreyt but sleep first. :)
17:27 audreyt Limbic_Region: please confirm that the fix worksforyou now when you get back.
17:27 svnbot6 r12735 | audreyt++ | * examples/vmethods/time.pl: fix one typo.
17:27 svnbot6 r12736 | audreyt++ | * uninitialized 'my &f' no longer performs a newTVar, so the dreaded 'nested atomically' bug won't be trigered when its params are queried for parsing.
17:32 iblechbot joined perl6
17:34 Limbic_Region audreyt++
17:34 * Limbic_Region checks
17:39 * diakopter is exploring ways to make trypugs (webpugs) work so that one user can multicast their session to others.
17:45 Limbic_Region audreyt++ # down to 18 failing examples
17:51 mako132_ joined perl6
17:56 Juerd my %foo of Bar | Baz | Array of (Bar | Baz), possible?
17:57 audreyt a smoke report of r12737 would be lovely
17:57 audreyt sadly I can't stay up to finish the smoke loop now
17:57 audreyt see you tomorrow :)
17:57 Juerd Bye. Sleep well.
17:57 svnbot6 r12737 | audreyt++ | * do not hijack \3 to mean \(3,) just now; first, it probably means \(3:); second, VRef's cast instance to newVal is not written, and so it'd break a lot of existing code. maybe fix that tomorrow...
18:06 diakopter is there anyone here who wants to talk about trypugs/webpugs ?
18:08 markstos_ diakopter: You could bounce some ideas off me.
18:08 markstos_ I'm a professional website developer by day.
18:09 diakopter ok.  i was one for a while also.
18:10 diakopter I've selected anyterm as a starting point for the javascript portion
18:11 markstos_ I'm not familiar with anyterm, but Ok.
18:12 diakopter server side, i'm starting with the webgui framework to handle all the http requests, since webgui contains an asynchronous daemon that can host all the pugs virtual sessions.
18:12 markstos_ unrelated: The Perl6 FAQ appears to have been written in POD originally, but is not in the pugs tree with the other FAQs. Anyone know the story? It would be nice to to merge it in and have them in one place, but I don't want to reverse engineer the POD.
18:12 markstos_ http://dev.perl.org/perl6/faq.html
18:12 lambdabot Title: Perl6 FAQ - perl6
18:13 markstos_ dakopter: OK. I'm not familiar with WebGUI either, but I have done some AJAX development.
18:14 diakopter WebGUI was featured on perlcast a few months ago.  it's a large GPL'd perl web app framework
18:15 diakopter it has never garnered viral attention
18:15 markstos_ diakopter: Yes I heard a bit about it at YAPC::NA.
18:15 svnbot6 r12738 | markstos++ | Add link to general FAQ to Feather's doc page.
18:16 markstos_ I'm used to the design of a small framework that is extensible throug plugins. Namely, CGI::Application.
18:16 diakopter I wrote several k LoC in it, including the ajax dashboard/portal application
18:16 diakopter ah yes
18:16 markstos_ But I suspect WebGUI would work fine here.
18:17 markstos_ diakopter: So are you asking for a peer review of your general approach before you go further?
18:17 diakopter yes, sort of.
18:17 diakopter yes :)
18:17 diakopter overall architecture, featureset
18:17 diakopter all the implementation details are still up in the air
18:18 diakopter I want to make sure I'm not restricting the features any by any early wrong design choices
18:18 markstos_ diakopter: What do at work for programming projects is to create a "web blueprint". ...
18:18 markstos_ basically, create some static HTML pages that look like the "screens" of the web app, and some notes about the logic to connect them.
18:19 markstos_ It usually doesn't take long relative to the programming, and is much quicker to refine if there are "big picture" issues.
18:19 diakopter ok. this has two screens - an entry page that lists other people's shared sessions to "watch", and the "create my own session" link to go to the actual pseudo terminal
18:19 diakopter in my mind so far
18:20 markstos_ Ok.
18:20 markstos_ Would you allow anonymoose, or unshared sessions?
18:21 diakopter I doubt it.  pugs sessions take too much ram
18:21 diakopter too much potential for abuse
18:21 diakopter errr
18:21 diakopter yes on the unshared sessions
18:21 markstos_ :)
18:21 markstos_ Would there be a max number of sessions supported at once?
18:21 diakopter i was going to enforce email address validation
18:21 diakopter yeah, defined by the app admin
18:21 markstos_ Ok.
18:21 diakopter later of course an autoadjusting algorithm could be added
18:22 markstos_ email address validation? You mean, you can't just use it casually without signing up ?
18:22 diakopter yeah, because of the abuse potential
18:22 diakopter do you have other ideas to deal with that problem?
18:22 markstos_ Wouldn't running pugs in a safe mode, like the eval bot, handle that ?
18:22 diakopter I was figuring a 2-3 minute timeout before each session is killed
18:23 diakopter hmm
18:23 aufrank joined perl6
18:23 markstos_ How you keep each user connected to the same context, so when they type line 3 and press return, it's in the same lexical context as line 2 ?
18:23 diakopter you mean having only one active pugs session, shared among all the clients?
18:24 markstos_ I think the evalbot runs pugs in a "safe" way, so that file system interactions and other "dangerous" actions are disabled.
18:25 diakopter right but that doesn't address state persistence
18:25 markstos_ You are right about that.
18:25 markstos_ Have you tried contacting the tryruby maintainer? http://tryruby.hobix.com/
18:25 lambdabot Title: try ruby! (in your browser)
18:26 diakopter haven't yet.
18:26 markstos_ If you could see their code and "port" it, that might be the easiest.
18:26 markstos_ They must have answered the persistency issue, too.
18:26 diakopter yeah.  although I think the structured tutorial is very limited.  I was imagining a pugs environment where entire modules could be pasted in, loaded.
18:26 markstos_ You might also discover a good bit just by poking at the JavaScript it's running.
18:27 markstos_ "entire modules" doesn't sound like a beginner trying the language. I'm not sure it's necessary to support that.
18:27 diakopter hmm; ok
18:27 diakopter point taken
18:28 diakopter another option is to persist the command history and spawn a new pugs session for each request, recreating the state
18:28 markstos_ Neat. On try ruby, watch what happens if you type "help" or "2 + 8".
18:28 markstos_ It's like an interactive tutorial. The web app captures certain inputs and provides helpful feedback.
18:29 diakopter yeah I know; i've gone through it
18:29 markstos_ I'm just discovering it. :) Impressive.
18:29 diakopter the server returns the terminal response along with the html and javascript code to eval
18:30 diakopter anyterm does it similarly.
18:32 diakopter and anyterm is already gpl
18:32 markstos_ Good. It sounds like you are on the right track.
18:32 markstos_ Great.
18:32 diakopter it would be neat to develop a structured tutorial
18:33 diakopter I suppose it could be integrated with a testing framework, to see if the state outcome matches what the tutorial step is demanding, to allow for timtowtdi
18:34 markstos_ Possibly.
18:35 markstos_ You might also take an existing tutorial and integrate it in. For example, here's a Perl6 OO cookbook:
18:35 markstos_ http://cog.cognitivity.com/perl6/
18:35 lambdabot Title: Perl6 Object Oriented Cookbook (v0.2.1)
18:35 markstos_ It may be too advanced to be a good match for this project, though.
18:35 diakopter so I was going to have WebGUI's daemon ("spectre") handle the pugs session management, and the WebGUI wobject (application) be a mere wrapper front-end to that time-sharing server.
18:36 diakopter hunh.  hadn't seen that.  4 years old.
18:36 markstos_ Really? I just found it on Google a moment ago. I haven't read through it.
18:37 diakopter copyright 2002.  i assume that means ago
18:37 diakopter age
18:37 lightstep joined perl6
18:37 diakopter any lurkers have anything to add?  please interject
18:38 markstos_ Yep. Some pages say 2003, but still..
18:38 markstos_ However, for the random pages I choose, the syntax was still accurate.
18:40 SubStack joined perl6
18:46 Juerd Silly question... How do you flatten an arrayref? :)
18:47 Juerd That is... array :)
18:47 Juerd .foo returns an array. Is it:
18:47 Juerd *.foo
18:47 Juerd @{.foo}
18:47 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
18:47 Juerd @ .foo
18:47 markstos_ @( .foo ) ?
18:47 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
18:48 markstos_ ?eval my $aref = [<a b c>];  say @( $aref );
18:48 evalbot_12738 OUTPUT[a b c ] Bool::True
18:48 xerox joined perl6
18:48 markstos_ ?eval my $aref = [<a b c>];  say @( $aref ).perl;
18:49 evalbot_12738 OUTPUT[["a", "b", "c"] ] Bool::True
18:50 diakopter_ joined perl6
18:52 justatheory joined perl6
18:59 diakopter_ markstos_ - any other thoughts?
18:59 diakopter_ brb
18:59 diakopter joined perl6
19:00 rashakil joined perl6
19:01 markstos_ diakopter: Not for now. I appreciate your efforts!
19:04 chris2 joined perl6
19:12 Juerd ?eval [ <a b c> ].kv
19:12 evalbot_12738 (0, "a", 1, "b", 2, "c")
19:12 Juerd ?eval [ <a b c> ].kv.reverse
19:12 evalbot_12738 ("c", 2, "b", 1, "a", 0)
19:12 Juerd ?eval my %foo = [ <a b c> ].kv.reverse
19:12 evalbot_12738 {("a" => 0), ("b" => 1), ("c" => 2)}
19:12 Juerd Lovely!
19:14 diakopter ?eval [ <a..z> ].kv.reverse
19:14 evalbot_12738 ("a..z", 0)
19:14 svnbot6 r12739 | markstos++ | Overhaul's feather's index and "syn" index pages to make them a much more
19:14 svnbot6 r12739 | markstos++ | comprehensive Perl6 resource.
19:15 markstos_ Lovely? Why does the zero appear at the beginning rather than the end when you treat a three element array as a hash ?
19:15 diakopter apparently I haven't a clue
19:17 * markstos_ takes snack break &
19:17 Juerd diakopter:
19:18 Juerd ?eval [ 'a'..'z' ].kv.reverse
19:18 evalbot_12739 ("z", 25, "y", 24, "x", 23, "w", 22, "v", 21, "u", 20, "t", 19, "s", 18, "r", 17, "q", 16, "p", 15, "o", 14, "n", 13, "m", 12, "l", 11, "k", 10, "j", 9, "i", 8, "h", 7, "g", 6, "f", 5, "e", 4, "d", 3, "c", 2, "b", 1, "a", 0)
19:18 Juerd diakopter: <> is the new qw()
19:18 Juerd markstos_: Hashes are unordered
19:19 Juerd Ignore that pugs ignores this :)
19:20 Juerd http://tnx.nl/5294IJOR  # HTTP::Headers for Perl 6 (lacks convenience methods)
19:27 diakopter each pugs instance uses 8MB ram
19:28 diakopter initially.
19:30 diakopter executing 2**112412 causes it to take up 3 more MB ram
19:32 diakopter hmm; I guess it have two modes
19:32 diakopter session persistence mode for those who validate their email addresses, and state-recreation mode for those who don't.
19:32 diakopter it could have two modes, I mean
19:33 diakopter so on a 512 MB jail, apache/mod_perl/webgui will take about 110MB ram plus 10MB ram per apache child.
19:34 diakopter so, assume 5 children
19:34 diakopter 44 available empty pugs sessions
19:34 diakopter not allowing for swapping.
19:35 diakopter that would be more than plenty, I think.
19:35 diakopter not accounting for whatever ram the system is using.  assume 200MB
19:36 diakopter okay, so 19 pugses
19:37 * diakopter ceases spamming the channel
19:37 diakopter (for now)
19:37 chris2_ joined perl6
19:38 markstos_ diakopter: Sounds like reasonable math.
19:40 diakopter hmm; and a 512MB jail from prgmr.com is....
19:42 diakopter well, the site was up yesterday.
19:48 chris2_ is now known as chris2
19:50 svnbot6 r12740 | markstos++ | fix broken <li> tags, which must have been broken in kwiki, too, since they were copy/pasted from there...
19:56 araujo joined perl6
19:59 * diakopter finally gets a local WebGUI dev environment set up.
19:59 markstos_ Perl6 blogging about references vs. Capture objects: http://use.perl.org/~markjugg/journal/30762
19:59 * diakopter prepares to hack spectre to host pugs sessions
19:59 lambdabot Title: Journal of markjugg (792)
20:12 gaal audreyt: re: Signatures needing alternate parsers - so do Captures! makeCircumOp+parseNoParenParamList doesn't permit \(1; 2)
20:15 markstos_ diakopter: I just got this result on tryruby. It provides a hit about how it works: "Your session has been closed, either due to inactivity or a bit of code which ran too long. Refresh the page and you can begin a new session. "
20:25 Juerd ?eval Object.new
20:25 evalbot_12740 Object.new()
20:33 diakopter markstos_: ah, okay
20:35 elmex joined perl6
20:35 diakopter I'm going to posit a guess that he's doing state reconstruction via each's session history
20:37 markstos_ diakopter: I tried to confirm if you could even refer to a previous line from the next line, but I don't know enough ruby to even declar a simple variable. :)
20:39 diakopter ah; it doesn't like 2**500000
20:40 diakopter also: "If you happen to leave or refresh the page, your session will still be here for unless it is left inactive for ten minutes."
20:40 diakopter [sic]
20:41 Juerd 2;0 juerd@feather:~$ pugs -e'my $foo = [ 1..5 ]; say $foo.perl'
20:41 Juerd [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
20:41 Juerd Eek
20:41 Juerd Wrong channel
20:44 Limbic_Region joined perl6
20:53 chris2 joined perl6
20:59 justatheory joined perl6
21:09 svnbot6 r12741 | markstos++ | Add some practical examples of life without references to Differences.pod
21:11 Juerd http://tnx.nl/5296LSEC
21:11 lambdabot Title: TNX
21:11 Juerd I wonder if it will compile. I haven't had the guts to try it, yet.
21:14 markstos_ Juerd: Why not try?
21:15 Juerd Tried.
21:15 Juerd Needed to change all @foo ==> map { .. } to non-pipe form
21:15 Juerd I thought pipes worked
21:16 Juerd Also, I thought hyper @foo>>.keys worked, but it doesn't
21:16 Juerd Now I have something that compiles.
21:16 Juerd Exciting
21:17 Juerd ?eval class Foo { has %foo; method bar { %foo } } Foo.new.bar
21:17 evalbot_12741 Error: Undeclared variable: "%foo"
21:18 Juerd ?eval class Foo { has %.foo; method bar { %.foo } } Foo.new.bar
21:18 evalbot_12741 {}
21:18 Juerd Hm
21:18 Juerd ?eval class Foo { has %!foo; method bar { %!foo } } Foo.new.bar
21:18 evalbot_12741 {}
21:18 Juerd Hm, ok
21:18 Juerd Thought you could leave out the !
21:18 markstos_ I guess not.
21:19 diakopter markstos_: I think I'll just do the state-recreating commandHistory-persisting version first :)
21:20 markstos_ diakopter: Sounds good!
21:20 markstos_ Here's my own problem. I have an hash element that is an array that I want to append to, but I get a syntax error with this:
21:20 markstos_ my %h; my $b = 5; %h<a> = @( @$b, @( %h<a> ));
21:20 markstos_ ?eval my %h; my $b = 5; %h<a> = @( @$b, @( %h<a> ));
21:20 evalbot_12741 Error:  unexpected "(" expecting "::"
21:24 markstos_ Hmm, I think I just tried to hard to re-invent 'push'. I found an alternate solution.
21:31 Juerd I give up.
21:32 Juerd Pugs isn't at all complete enough to do this.
21:32 Juerd On %!headers.keys it calls &keys in its own class, instead of Hash's
21:33 Juerd And I don't like moving around syntax all the time. That's nice if you have lots of time, but unfortunately, I don't.
21:33 * Juerd postpones trying Perl 6 again
21:37 Juerd Do we have a historic graph or table of how many tests pass?
21:38 Juerd Or perhaps a chart, for the nitpicky :)
21:46 diakopter joined perl6
21:47 TreyHarris Juerd: no, I asked the other day and apparently the problem is that only HTML is saved, not TAP output
21:47 TreyHarris In any case, audreyt's said that at this point she's just dealing with regression as she tries to replace the object model and implement Captures correctly
21:47 TreyHarris so tests that used to fail, she's fixing to make pass, but new tests she's allowing to stay failing
21:48 TreyHarris but fixing the object model and the captures is what's required to make feeds, hypermethodcalls, etc., work right, so it is an indirect answer to you, if not a direct one
21:49 markstos_ joined perl6
21:49 Juerd Ah, that might explain why objects work so badly now
21:51 markstos_ Objects are working OK for me... but perhaps I'm not working them as hard as you are...
21:51 TreyHarris i've found workarounds for almost everything, but i'll grant it's annoying to have to workaround when Perl 6 has such nice syntax that's not working
21:52 Juerd ?eval class Foo { has %.bar; method keys { die "shouldn't be called" }; method quux { %.bar.keys } } Foo.new.quux
21:52 evalbot_12741 Error: shouldn't be called
21:52 Juerd ?eval class Foo { has %.bar; method xkeys { die "shouldn't be called" }; method quux { %.bar.keys } } Foo.new.quux
21:52 evalbot_12741 ()
21:52 Juerd Method resolution is wrong.
21:52 markstos_ Doh.
21:52 Juerd Foo has nothing to do with %.bar
21:53 Juerd But Pugs does think it does
21:53 markstos_ ?eval print if 'hello world' ~~ m/hello/;
21:53 evalbot_12741 OUTPUT[] Bool::True
21:53 markstos_ print if 'hello world' ~~ rx/hello/;
21:53 markstos_ ?eval print if 'hello world' ~~ m/hello/;
21:53 evalbot_12741 OUTPUT[] Bool::True
21:53 markstos_ That little test doesn't work here. It complains that parrot is not installed. Do I really have to install for Regexp support with pugs ?
21:53 Juerd In boolean context, rx// and m// are the same.
21:54 Juerd markstos_: AFAIK, yes. Otherwise you only get Perl 5 regexes.
21:54 Juerd And then only if you have Perl 5 embedded.
21:54 markstos_ So that was the shortcut to get regular expressions working so quickly...
21:54 Juerd Shortcut?
21:55 markstos_ As opposed to implementing them in Haskell.
21:55 Juerd These are important techniques.
21:55 markstos_ embedding parrot, you mean ?
21:55 Juerd Implementing them in Haskell is, in my opinion, madness, if we already have them elsewhere.
21:55 TreyHarris ?eval class Foo { has %.bar; method keys { die "shouldn't be called" }; method quux { %(%.bar).keys } }; Foo.new.quux
21:55 evalbot_12741 Error: shouldn't be called
21:55 markstos_ As a user, it's just an annoyance at the moment, because I have to something else to install now.
21:55 Juerd Implementing rules in Parrot is (I think) much harder than implementing them in Haskell, so I wouldn't call it a shortcut.
21:56 markstos_ I see your perspective about how it's a good technical decision.
21:56 markstos_ It just conflicts with convenience  at the moment. :)
21:56 Juerd Pugs isn't really built for users just yet :)
21:56 markstos_ I've been noticing...
21:56 markstos_ I like it anyway. :)
21:57 Juerd I like it, but every time I try to use it, it's just a frustrating experience.
21:58 Juerd My brain already speaks Perl 6, and has a hard time accepting that much of it isn't implemented yet.
21:58 merlyn my brain still speaks perl4 as enhanced by perl5
21:59 TreyHarris lol
21:59 Juerd Things like @foo.kv.reverse come entirely naturally to me, before I try if they work.
21:59 Juerd In Perl 5 it'd be { my $i = 0; $bar{$_} = $i++ for @foo }
21:59 Juerd Much more complex.
22:00 Juerd Another thing that I like is @foo ==> map { ... } ==> map { ... }, but Pugs doesn't do that yet
22:00 Juerd Or @foo>>.keys
22:00 Juerd Err, @foo>>.key
22:00 merlyn $bar{0..$#foo} = @foo
22:00 merlyn @bar{0..$#foo} = @foo
22:00 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
22:00 merlyn that's how I'd do that
22:00 Juerd merlyn: @bar{@foo} = 0..$#foo
22:00 merlyn oh, right
22:01 merlyn backwardsin
22:01 Juerd Good idea. I didn't think of it.
22:01 markstos_ Juerd: Perhaps I should just get an account on feather. From this page, it looks like parrot 0.4.5 is broken on FreeBSD, and thus I assume 0.4.6 wouldn't work any better.
22:01 markstos_ http://www.freshports.org/lang/parrot
22:01 lambdabot Title: FreshPorts -- lang/parrot
22:01 Juerd markstos_: Perhaps you should indeed. Do you know how to request one?
22:02 TreyHarris but you hit the nail on the head: the tension with Perl has always been the most brilliant code is rejected by the people that matter (e.g., managers, learning programmers) because it's too opaque.  i think in Perl 6 a lot more of the brilliant is also obvious
22:02 * markstos_ checks feather website
22:03 Juerd I like it that people call that single page a website
22:03 markstos_ The instructions say to let Juerd know.
22:03 Juerd Oooohhh!
22:03 markstos_ You looked at the website, didn't you ?
22:03 Juerd Someone made it much better.
22:03 * markstos_ grins...
22:03 Juerd I hadn't seen the "site" in this form yet
22:03 markstos_ That was me, a few hours ago.
22:04 TreyHarris how did you update feather without having an account on it?
22:04 markstos_ I'm L33t?
22:04 Juerd Hehe
22:04 markstos_ subversion and cron.
22:04 Juerd Long live wiki style delevopment :)
22:04 Juerd markstos_: Thanks man :)
22:04 markstos_ Juerd: about adding more pages:
22:05 markstos_ I'm confused that syn/index.html is stored as syn_index.html in svn.
22:05 markstos_ I expected directories work work as a 1-to-1 mapping with svn and the feather directory.
22:05 Juerd markstos_: Please request your account by sending me an email with your real name, and preferred username
22:06 Juerd markstos_: This all got changed recently, and I haven't yet seen how they did it
22:06 Juerd syn symlinks to somewhere
22:06 Juerd syn/index.html symlinks back to syn_index
22:06 Juerd I have no idea why, but there's probably a good reason.
22:06 markstos_ to ~agentz/syn, I htink.
22:07 markstos_ It was probably more convenient to agentz. Anyway, other directories can created normally under there ?
22:07 Juerd Very probably.
22:07 Oswyn joined perl6
22:08 markstos_ Ok. I expect I'll continue to work on this site some of I have time.
22:14 Juerd markstos_: Please use normal quotes, not backticks
22:14 svnbot6 r12742 | juerd++ | s/autrijus/audreyt/
22:15 markstos_ Where are backticks used? in the list of links to kwiki ?
22:15 svnbot6 r12743 | juerd++ | s:g/``|''/"/
22:15 ajs_ joined perl6
22:19 justatheory joined perl6
22:22 Juerd markstos_: In quotes. I don't know if you did that, or someone else.
22:23 markstos_ That doesn't sound  like something I would do, but it's possible I copy/pasted some HTML from kwiki that was strange that like.
22:24 markstos_ BTW, How I can view a patch with svn ? I tried svn diff -r123, but that didn't work as I expected.
22:24 markstos_ Nevermind, I figured that out:
22:25 markstos_ svn diff -r 122:123
22:25 markstos_ It's simpler with darcs, just darcs diff -p 'human patch name'
22:25 markstos_ No number lookups. :)
22:30 svnbot6 r12744 | juerd++ | Random website improvements
22:32 * markstos_ waits patiently for feather login
22:35 Juerd Sorry, forgot to re-enable my mail beep
22:36 markstos_ Beep!
22:36 Juerd Your password is markstos. Please change it immediately.
22:37 markstos_ updated.
22:37 markstos_ Thanks!
22:38 Juerd You're welcome, in both senses
22:39 Juerd Please create a ~/.qmail if you're not going to read email on feather
22:39 Juerd And please create a ~/.plan describing your intentions with the machine
22:39 Juerd Possibly hidden from the outside world by adding a ~/.nofinger
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23:07 svnbot6 r12745 | juerd++ | google box
23:10 svnbot6 r12746 | juerd++ | typofix
23:10 svnbot6 r12747 | juerd++ | It's better on one line :)
23:19 svnbot6 r12748 | juerd++ | html improvements
23:21 * araujo didn't know compiling pugs would take so long
23:23 Juerd It used to take much longer even
23:25 araujo oh ok, so is it a normal behaviour Juerd ?
23:25 araujo i was thinking it was probably my box
23:25 araujo sometimes some packages are compiled very slowly
23:30 Juerd It could *also* be your box.
23:30 Juerd What are the specs of your box?
23:31 araujo amd64 , 1.8ghz , 512ram
23:31 * araujo needs to get more memory
23:32 araujo Big haskell applications tend to compile too slow :-(
23:34 araujo ready!
23:37 Juerd 512 MB is just enough for Pugs, but you'd better not be running X and firefox at the same time :)
23:38 Juerd 512 MB is a bit on the low end for an amd64 1.8 - was this a conscious choice?
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