Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-09-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:01 markstos joined perl6
00:02 TreyHarris renormalist: thanks for looking at it :-)
00:04 jdv79 any idea on the status of the metamodel stuff?
00:04 weinig|food is now known as weinig
00:06 markstos What's the recommend tool for viewing the kwid in Perl 6 modules ?
00:06 renormalist TreyHarris: np :-)
00:07 svnbot6 r13050 | trey++ | [t/perl5/array.t]
00:07 svnbot6 r13050 | trey++ | Un-todo'd passing test.  Wrapped some
00:07 svnbot6 r13050 | trey++ | failing tests in eval so that skip_rest
00:07 svnbot6 r13050 | trey++ | could be removed.  Wrapped failing
00:07 svnbot6 r13050 | trey++ | expressions in eval, and tested them.
00:07 svnbot6 r13050 | trey++ | Removed voodoo that doesn't seem necessary
00:07 svnbot6 r13050 | trey++ | anymore.
00:14 TreyHarris renormalist: oh, if it's an easy hack, ? can't introduce a regex anymore, and since ?() is used all over the place in pugs' tests, it would be helpful if that were fixed :-)
00:15 theorbtwo Er, what's ?() now?
00:16 TreyHarris theorbtwo: boolean context
00:16 * theorbtwo slaps his head.
00:16 TreyHarris like @() array context, %() hash context, !() boolean negating context, $() scalar context
00:17 theorbtwo I don't think of those as having parens after them, for some silly reason, so I was thinking of something more function-like and less operator-like.
00:17 theorbtwo (And you missed ~, string context, and +, numeric context.)
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00:21 TreyHarris yup.  without the parens, my brain starts to hurt though.  maybe i'll get more comfortable with ~expr versus expr1 ~ expr2 as time goes on....
00:21 svnbot6 r13051 | trey++ | [t/perl5/array.t]
00:21 svnbot6 r13051 | trey++ | Uncommented and munged a hardfail into
00:21 svnbot6 r13051 | trey++ | something testable.
00:22 markstos To answer my own question about reading kwid. I found "perl-doc", but it is just currently a kwid to HTML translator. Are they are any direct kwid viewers ?
00:23 TreyHarris markstos: i've been meaning to look into that myself.  there's an ext/Kwid-Event-Parser, but I don't know what it does
00:24 markstos I'm getting frustrated with reading the source of Test.pm each time I wonder about a specific testing method.
00:24 TreyHarris i must have run "perldoc ext/Test/lib/Test.pm" a hundred times....
00:24 TreyHarris lol
00:24 TreyHarris == markstos
00:24 TreyHarris spooky
00:24 markstos I prefer kwid to POD for looks, but I'm considering PODifying Test.pm until kwid tools catch up.
00:25 markstos Can I get a ++ ?
00:25 TreyHarris markstos++
00:25 TreyHarris TreyHarris++
00:25 perlbot What kind of idiot karmas himself?  Your kind of idiot!
00:25 TreyHarris lol
00:25 markstos lol
00:25 TreyHarris &'s for a few
00:25 markstos Ok. I'll PODify Test.pm now.
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00:39 svnbot6 r13052 | markstos++ | convert Test.pm docs from kwid to POD as there are more tools
00:39 svnbot6 r13052 | markstos++ | and familiarity with POD now. Once there are kwid tools for
00:39 svnbot6 r13052 | markstos++ | easy viewing, we can change it back.
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00:40 TreyHarris hmmm.... when a test in a loop is todo'd, and it succeeds some of the time, what to do? (pun unintentional.) untodo it?  leave it todo'd?  or go to the trouble of teasing that case out of the loop?
00:41 markstos Ah. http://feather.perl6.nl/~markstos/Test.pm.html
00:41 lambdabot Title: Test - Test support module for perl6, http://tinyurl.com/p2dor
00:41 markstos An easy Test.pm reference. :)
00:42 TreyHarris perlbot: learn perl6 Test.pm as http://feather.perl6.nl/~markstos/Test.pm.html
00:42 perlbot added perl6 Test.pm to the database
00:42 lambdabot Title: Test - Test support module for perl6, http://tinyurl.com/p2dor
00:42 markstos TestHarris: ideally-- extract the test case.
00:42 markstos A simplified test case might be easier to work with anyway.
00:43 audreyt 00:39 < TreyHarris> actually, i know it's not.  Proxy objects aren't  implemented.
00:43 lambdabot audreyt: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
00:43 markstos but it's easy to be idealistic from afar-- you are the one staring it at. :)
00:43 audreyt actually, it's hacked in by schwern long ago :)
00:43 audreyt "user defined" proxy objects aren't implemented.
00:43 audreyt builtin ones like %*ENV or $*CWD works fine
00:43 markstos TreyHarris: so we do we get that information /out/ of perlbot later ?
00:44 markstos perlbot: what is Test.pm?
00:44 perlbot I already have an entry for what
00:44 audreyt perlbot: Test.pm
00:44 TreyHarris audreyt: ah... what's the difference?  they can be written in Haskell but not perl?
00:44 TreyHarris perlbot: perl6 Test.pm
00:44 perlbot http://feather.perl6.nl/~markstos/Test.pm.html
00:44 lambdabot Title: Test - Test support module for perl6, http://tinyurl.com/p2dor
00:44 audreyt TreyHarris: exactly. though I think the plumbing is here for userdefined proxy too
00:45 audreyt just need to be exposed
00:45 * audreyt backlogeth
00:45 TreyHarris cool... if it were exposed, i think i could actually code up my cloning proposal rather than just describing it.  oh... i guess i'd need user-defined trait_auxiliary:is support too
00:45 audreyt noted
00:46 audreyt is there test for latter?
00:46 markstos The test.pm docs say "This function currently uses require() since Pugs does not yet have a proper use() builtin."  I've found the reverse to be true-- I've had better look with "use" than "require"
00:46 TreyHarris audreyt: i don't remember if i looked.  i'll check, and if not, i'll write one asap
00:46 audreyt markstos: right it's a commentrot
00:46 markstos audreyt: so just remove the comment ?
00:46 audreyt TreyHarris: cool! I've been lately biased toward working at failing tests _with smartlinks_
00:46 * TreyHarris often gets diverted when he starts looking at stuff inside t/ and comes up for breath hours later not having accomplished what he intended to
00:46 audreyt markstos: sure
00:47 TreyHarris audreyt: dunno if you watch the svn logs, but many of my recent commits have been smartlinking :-)
00:47 audreyt TreyHarris: that's fine... it all adds up :)
00:47 audreyt TreyHarris: I have :)
00:47 * audreyt still reviews each and every diff... or at least s/review/skim/
00:48 TreyHarris i should clean up my "svn-explorer" script that lets me quickly work through recent commits trn-style and stick it in util/
00:48 svnbot6 r13053 | markstos++ | Test.pm: remove note suffering from comment rot.
00:48 TreyHarris but it makes a lot of assumptions about my pugs installation right now.
00:49 markstos I'm close to getting a basic CGI::App port done with tests passing. After that, I might help improve the Test.pm docs and other testing stuff.
00:49 audreyt TreyHarris: that never stops pugs committers from checking things in :)
00:49 audreyt markstos: oooh
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00:50 markstos I saw that agentz recently commited so that this works: L<http://foo.com>
00:50 markstos I like that because, because I can copy and paste Syn URLs from my browser. :)
00:51 markstos s/because, // :)
00:53 TreyHarris markstos: oh, btw, i've cleaned up a few of your smartlinks recently.  don't put the section name in quotes, do include pod directives like C<> in the section names, and run util/smartlinks.pl --check t/<mumble>.t before you checkin to see if they're all valid
00:54 markstos TreyHarris: Thanks for the tip!
00:56 TreyHarris audreyt: there's some ambiguity in the synopses as to whether it's written trait_auxiliary:is or trait_auxiliary:<is>.  the latter is tested, the former is not
00:56 audreyt ok. I think :is is internal storage form, :<is> is canonical
00:56 audreyt so test for latter = correct
00:57 * markstos just noticed t/README, which already includes all of trey's tips.
00:57 TreyHarris audreyt: thanks, i'll smartlink them :-)
00:57 audreyt moose! :)
00:58 * audreyt goes grepping for breakfast -- bbiab
00:58 TreyHarris markstos: yup.  good tips in /lib/Pugs/Doc/Hack.pod too, and IMHO it's too-well-hidden-away
00:58 markstos TreyHarris: link it it from the wiki, or pod2html ~/public_html/Hack.html, and link to /that/ from the wiki.
00:59 TreyHarris markstos: i don't have a feather account, would you mind?
01:00 markstos coming up
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01:01 audreyt @tell xerox install File::chdir from CPAN and use { local $CWD = '/foo'; ... }
01:01 lambdabot Consider it noted.
01:02 audreyt written, unsurprisingly, by the same Schwern.
01:03 TreyHarris oh... yes... i've used that myself.
01:03 * TreyHarris smacks his head
01:03 markstos http://feather.perl6.nl/~markstos/Hack.html
01:03 lambdabot Title: Pugs::Doc::Hack - How to hack on Pugs
01:03 markstos Wow, looks  really useful.
01:03 markstos It should really be in doc/ --- that's where I'd expect to find it.
01:03 TreyHarris My memory for CPAN modules is not what it used to be
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01:06 TreyHarris markstos: you may want to go behind the tests you've added and fix their svn props as described in that doc.  i've caught a couple of them as you committed them, but i haven't gone back and looked exhaustively.
01:06 markstos Ok. I'
01:06 markstos I'm totally unaware of svn props usage, so I'm not surprised.
01:09 svnbot6 r13054 | markstos++ | Move lib/Pugs to docs/Pugs for consistency and ease of finding.
01:09 svnbot6 r13054 | markstos++ | I'll document this move the Pugs/Doc/Hack.pod layout docs.
01:11 markstos So the svn props util script is normally run just after adding new files? The doc said to run it... it didn't say /when/ :)
01:11 svnbot6 r13055 | markstos++ | reflect move of lib/Pugs to docs/Pugs
01:22 TreyHarris markstos: you can run it any time after you do the add.   preferably before you do the commit :-)
01:22 markstos Ah.
01:26 svnbot6 r13056 | markstos++ | clarify when to run the svn props scripts.
01:28 markstos Should this emit an error?
01:28 markstos ?eval my @r; @r.push<hi>; say @r.perl;
01:28 evalbot_r13037 is now known as evalbot_r13055
01:28 evalbot_r13055 OUTPUT[[] ] Bool::True
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01:29 TreyHarris i think it should emit an error.  S06, I think, specifies that you can't call a subroutine like that
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01:29 TreyHarris even if the subroutine returns a hash, which that doesn't
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01:29 TreyHarris s/subroutine/routine/g
01:30 markstos Ok. Adding test.
01:30 TreyHarris *laugh* that irc log stats thing somebody posted a couple weeks ago said that my favorite things to say were "i think" and "specifies".  i think i just proved that it specifies my behavior accurately ;-)
01:32 markstos funny.
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01:35 svnbot6 r13057 | markstos++ | [t/builtins/arrays/push.t]
01:35 svnbot6 r13057 | markstos++ | New failing test for @a.push<hi>: it should emit an error.
01:51 markstos I just porting the Dump function from CGI.pm-p5 and noticed there was a bug in it:
01:51 markstos http://rt.cpan.org//Ticket/Display.html?id=21341
01:51 lambdabot Title: #21341: PATCH: Param names not escaped properly in Dump, allowing raw HTML throu ..., http://tinyurl.com/gbb6f
01:51 markstos s/just/was just/
01:55 obra seen nothingmuch
01:58 TreyHarris hmm.  audreyt, what's your understanding of how @r.push<hi> should parse, if it should parse at all?
01:59 markstos TreyHarris: are you wondering whether it should parsefail, rather than be a runtime error ?
01:59 TreyHarris markstos: yep.
01:59 markstos Earlier feedback is always nicer.
01:59 TreyHarris markstos: apologies, i didn't think of the distinction until i saw your diff, or i would have mentioned it earlier
02:00 markstos No apology needed. I thought it as I was creating the patch, but I knew it could be refined later.
02:01 TreyHarris yep, it's just that in this case, if it should be parsefail, then "success" will be defined as failing not just that test, but any tests which later might follow :-)
02:02 TreyHarris i like to future-proof tests when possible, because a good change causing more test failures is demotivational ;-)
02:02 markstos But we would switch to using eval with a string, rather than dies_ok with a block, right ?
02:02 TreyHarris right.  ok !(eval '...') is how i usually write it
02:03 TreyHarris or rather
02:03 TreyHarris right.  ok !(eval '...; 1') is how i usually write it
02:03 markstos And that would cover a parsefail case, as well as a runtime error? Then it seems there's no downside to switching it now.
02:11 TreyHarris markstos: the downside is you're running string eval, which makes smoke slow. :-)  correct tests are more important than fast tests though
02:12 markstos Oh. On the other hand, yesterday I got rid of two test scripts by consolidating them, so that should bring a small performance boost.
02:13 markstos We can leave it as a dies_ok now, and then it it really does become a parsefail, someone will notice and fix the script. :)
02:14 TreyHarris true enough :-)
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02:22 dolmans markstos: you can use eval_dies_ok($str ... too, which is essentially ok !(eval $str ...
02:25 TreyHarris dolmans: yes, in this case it is.  but eval_dies_ok runs the eval in its lexical context, so you can't use it when it refers to something in the test's lexical context
02:25 TreyHarris i've been bitten by that one many times
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02:27 TreyHarris ok !(eval $str) always works, so I tend to just use that now :-)
02:27 dolmans TreyHarris: true, and sometimes package scope is annoying.
02:34 markstos TreyHarris: I can't reminder my password to register with FreeNode to msg you directly
02:35 TreyHarris ahh, ok, i'll make a channel
02:35 markstos or do this: /msg nickserv set unfiltered on
02:35 markstos And you can get msgs from unregistered users
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02:50 TreyHarris markstos: heh, my script fired that opped the last person on the channel before i left :-)
02:50 * TreyHarris &'s to decommute
02:54 weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
02:56 * markstos wraps up another blog post, encouraging more people to get involved in Perl 6
02:56 clkao markstos++
02:57 markstos clkao: Would you like a preview?
02:57 markstos http://feather.perl6.nl/~markstos/three_reasons.txt
03:00 markstos if you have feedback, I can incorporate it before I officially publish it.
03:02 clkao looks fine to me. surely you want to mention the irc?
03:02 markstos like "join us on #perl6" or something ?
03:03 clkao ya
03:03 markstos Ok.
03:03 TreyHarris markstos: oh, i was just heading out the door when i noticed my pugs make didn't even get off the ground because Hack.pod had moved.  You may want to make a minor change to Makefile.PL so that people's Makefiles will rebuild
03:04 markstos will do.
03:04 * TreyHarris &'s for real this time
03:12 markstos We're live: http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/
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03:16 markstos I think we need to start Pugs::Diagnostics.. or something. To help people when they get errors like this:
03:16 markstos Can't modify constant item: VUndef
03:22 markstos What's my crime?
03:22 markstos ?eval my @result; for <a b> -> $param { @result.push("<li><strong>$param</strong></li>"); }
03:22 evalbot_r13055 is now known as evalbot_r13057
03:22 evalbot_r13057 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
03:22 markstos I suspect I accidently involved some interpolation operator I'm unaware of.
03:23 markstos Ah, it was $param<
03:45 svnbot6 r13058 | markstos++ | CGI.pm: implement code/docs/test for "Dump" method, like CGI.pm-P5 has.
03:50 TreyHarris ?eval my @result = gather { for <a b> -> $param { take "<li><strong>{$param}</strong></li>" } }
03:50 evalbot_r13057 is now known as evalbot_r13058
03:50 evalbot_r13058 ["<li><strong>a</strong></li>", "<li><strong>b</strong></li>"]
03:51 TreyHarris I like gather/take :-)
03:51 markstos I haven't used it yet.
03:52 markstos Wouldn't a simple "push" work there, though?
03:55 TreyHarris of course, but I don't think push is simpler... it's only simpler from the perspective of being familiar to perl 5 programmers.  you're not "pushing" anything in that case, there's no stack there... you want to gather up some things after they've been munged in a certain way
03:56 TreyHarris ?eval <a b>.map:{ "<li><strong>{$^param}</strong></li>" }
03:56 markstos but in this case the "Munging" is just creating a string, and that part would remain with a push call there.
03:56 evalbot_r13058 ("<li><strong>a</strong></li>", "<li><strong>b</strong></li>")
03:56 TreyHarris might be more familiar to functional programmers.  timtowtdi, of course :-)
03:56 TreyHarris i don't understand.  push?  push is something you do to stacks.  you're creating a list of strings, aren't you?
03:57 markstos right.
03:57 markstos Later to be joined with "\n".
03:58 markstos You're say: conceptually, the stack is not a the best metaphor, and gather/take avoids it ?
03:58 TreyHarris ?eval <a b>.map:{ "<li><strong>{$^param}</strong></li>" }.join("\n")
03:58 evalbot_r13058 "<li><strong>a</strong></li>\n<li><strong>b</strong></li>"
03:58 markstos If you want to play with a refactor, I just check in the result to the CGI.pm as the Dump method.
03:59 markstos The code is a mostly-straight port from the P5 Dump method.
03:59 markstos Now I'm playing with "as_yaml" as an alternative, but I'm finding the structure that Pugs generates isn't as "clean" as I would have hoped.
03:59 TreyHarris right.  "push == 'put something onto the end of a list'" is a perl5ism.  whether it's a perl6ism as well remains to be seen.  but i try to look at all perl 6 code from a new set of eyes, not as a translation of perl 5 with some nifty new features
04:00 markstos Yes: I'm definitely interested in learning about and evaluating new styles myself.
04:00 markstos Simply translating P5 into a new-but-same syntax seems like a waste of time.
04:01 TreyHarris especially as we'll have tools to do that for us automatically ;-)
04:01 markstos you mean, to automatically waste time?
04:01 markstos ;-)
04:01 TreyHarris yes, of course.  ever played WoW? :-)
04:01 markstos No, but I heard it is popular... must be for a reason.
04:02 TreyHarris the ultimate time-wasting tool ;-)
04:03 markstos TreyHarris: by the way, I did a 'make' with problem.
04:03 markstos maybe you needed a "make clean" ... or something.
04:05 TreyHarris yes, i did.  and anyone else who last built just prior to r13054 but later than... um... i'd have to dig up the exactly rev, will need to as well.  i suggested you change Makefile.PL so they won't have to manually make clean
04:05 markstos Could you help me? I looked and couldn't find what needed to be changed.
04:06 TreyHarris nothing.  just some change, so Makefile.PL's timestamp gets updated, forcing a make clean
04:06 markstos Uh oh, it's 00:01 o'clock. I'm going to turn into a pumpkin soon.
04:06 markstos No wonder I couldn't find the right spot.
04:07 TreyHarris Makefile.PL automatically generates document targets from the podfiles it finds.  you moved one of the podfiles, but didn't update Makefile.PL.  but Makefile still has a reference to the old loc.  so it bombs, unable to find Hack.pod in its prior location
04:09 svnbot6 r13059 | markstos++ | TreyHarris suggested making a trivial change after moving
04:09 svnbot6 r13059 | markstos++ | some files from lib/Pugs to docs/Pugs. Reportedly, this
04:09 svnbot6 r13059 | markstos++ | prevent a build-break for some people.
04:16 TreyHarris anyway gather/take becomes more useful when it's not just linearly mapping:
04:16 TreyHarris ?eval my @vowels = <a e i o u>; my @after_vowel = gather { for each(@@vowels) -> $letter, $next { take $next if $letter eq any(@vowels) } }
04:16 evalbot_r13058 is now known as evalbot_r13059
04:16 evalbot_r13059 Error: Undeclared variable: "$next"
04:16 TreyHarris unfortunately that syntax doesn't work yet.
04:16 TreyHarris :-)
04:17 TreyHarris erm... that's not what i meant.
04:17 TreyHarris ?eval my @vowels = <a e i o u>; my @after_vowel = gather { for each(@@<a..z>) -> $letter, $next { take $next if $letter eq any(@vowels) } }
04:17 evalbot_r13059 []
04:17 TreyHarris there we go. :-)  still doesn't work, but progress ;-)
04:18 TreyHarris and wouldn't work anyway, unless the alignment happened to be right.  but that was a contrived example i just pulled out of thin air anyway :-)
04:24 TreyHarris ?eval my @vowels = <a e i o u>; my @letters = 'a'..'z'; my @next_letters = @letters[1..@letters - 1,0]; my @after_vowel = gather { for each(@letters;@next_letters) -> $letter, $next { take $next if $letter eq any(@vowels) } };
04:24 evalbot_r13059 ["b", "f", "j", "p", "v"]
04:24 TreyHarris there we go.  lol.
04:24 TreyHarris i think an iterative approach would be much clearer there ;-)
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05:17 bjoern_ ?eval 0xf6 + 0xffffffffffffffff
05:17 evalbot_r13059 18446744073709551861
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05:20 nothingmuch obra: pong
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05:34 TreyHarris 17:46 < audreyt> TreyHarris: cool! I've been lately biased toward working at failing tests _with smartlinks_
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05:34 TreyHarris audreyt: does that mean that I should un-todo those tests? :-)
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05:42 Teratogen are we having fun yet?
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05:43 TreyHarris ?eval .fun
05:43 evalbot_r13059 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&fun"
05:43 TreyHarris guess not
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05:48 obra nothingmuch: I wanted to thank you for mailtomutt ;)
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05:51 nothingmuch obra: wow
05:51 nothingmuch that's old
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05:52 gaal audreyt: hey. two leftovers in Sig...
05:53 nothingmuch morning gaal
05:53 gaal first, we need to get the existential coercion to work again (ie, make p_unpacking :: Maybe PureSig again)
05:53 gaal hey nothingmuch!
05:53 obra nothingmuch: I was a bit surprised to see your name on it
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05:54 gaal second, is there a less error prone way of threading traits/traits'/traits''' etc. in that function?
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05:55 nothingmuch obra: good surprised or bad surprised? ;-)
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05:55 gaal oh, actually there's a third thing, support for elided varnames (ie unpacked-only params). but there are two p6-l posts that need to be answered for that
05:56 * nothingmuch ignores justatheory to see if it'll help
05:56 obra nothingmuch: just amused.
05:56 obra it seems to mostly do what I want
05:56 obra I'm tired to being unable to fully keyboard mail.app
05:56 nothingmuch it should be fixed up a bit
05:57 nothingmuch *nod*
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05:59 nothingmuch the icon contains an easter egg you might appreciate, too ;-)
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06:00 TreyHarris nothingmuch: oh, is he still popping in and out?  i ignored him an hour ago :-)
06:00 justatheory joined perl6
06:00 nothingmuch ah, so appearantly it does help ;-)
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06:03 * nothingmuch goes to the post office to mail out A Pattern Language
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06:11 lumi /ignore justatheory JOINS QUITS
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06:23 TreyHarris what would cause a test to not print its trailing status, despite getting through the last test?
06:24 * TreyHarris wishes for pugs debugger sometimes
06:24 audreyt TreyHarris: tried pugs -d ?
06:24 audreyt not quite a debugger, but in practice for me comes close
06:24 TreyHarris oh, you're kidding me.
06:24 TreyHarris oh.  ok :-)
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06:24 TreyHarris i'll try it
06:24 audreyt pugs -d your_code_here.pl
06:24 audreyt it's a 10-min hack
06:25 audreyt don't expect too much :) but it's useful
06:25 TreyHarris cool.
06:25 TreyHarris i was semi-seriously asking before, though: should i un-todo those trait_auxiliary tests?
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06:26 audreyt you can use the force_todo device
06:26 audreyt as a crude hack.
06:26 audreyt not aware of better ways
06:26 TreyHarris no, i meant...
06:26 TreyHarris 17:46 < audreyt> TreyHarris: cool! I've been lately biased toward working at failing tests _with smartlinks_
06:27 TreyHarris there are tests for it, but they're not failing
06:27 audreyt ah right. leave them failing
06:27 audreyt I'll todo or implement them as part of triage
06:27 audreyt thoug trait_aux is almsost definitely todo material for this week
06:27 TreyHarris no, they're not failing because they're todo
06:27 audreyt so the end result is likely same
06:27 TreyHarris *grin* ok :-)
06:27 audreyt :)
06:27 audreyt I finally repaird my ~/.svk space
06:28 audreyt syncing some 400 changes
06:28 audreyt sync the macbook went down
06:28 audreyt s/sync/since/
06:28 TreyHarris more of the fallout from your failing macbook?
06:28 audreyt yeah, finally seeing end of tunnel
06:28 TreyHarris i would just go insane
06:28 audreyt I considered that to
06:28 audreyt *too
06:29 audreyt decided to not do that
06:29 TreyHarris :)
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06:31 audreyt bbiab..
06:34 justatheory joined perl6
06:34 TreyHarris audreyt: i'd be willing to start implementing missing S29 builtins and S{none(29)} syntactic sugar in Perl 6 if you think it would be worthwhile
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06:37 TreyHarris joshmoore: josh moore formerly of ibiblio?
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06:39 joshmoore nope, sorry.
06:40 TreyHarris joshmoore: np, just didn't want to snub you if you were an old coworker :-)
06:40 svnbot6 r13060 | trey++ | [t/packages/require_and_use.t]
06:40 svnbot6 r13060 | trey++ | Un-todo'd passing test.
06:40 svnbot6 r13060 | trey++ | Changed test messages in loops to include
06:40 svnbot6 r13060 | trey++ | the string being attempted, as the counter
06:40 svnbot6 r13060 | trey++ | was counterintuitive.
06:41 audreyt TreyHarris: it certainly would! more helpful even would be to separate them into src/perl6/Num.pm, etc
06:42 audreyt bbiab for real :)
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07:22 svnbot6 r13061 | trey++ | [t/oo/traits/basic.t]
07:22 svnbot6 r13061 | trey++ | Added a missing test.
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07:49 lilo hmmm, I'm going to be bad now
07:50 lilo sets mode: +b justatheory!n=justathe@dsl093-038-250.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net!##unavailable
07:50 * nothingmuch reenables clothes optional mode
07:50 lilo make sure a channel staffer turns that off in a few hours, when the guy is back
07:51 nothingmuch audreyt: morning
07:51 * lilo waves and &
07:51 pinPoint .
07:52 nothingmuch pinPoint: ?
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08:08 nothingmuch cute =) http://www.designboom.com/contemporary/peg.html
08:09 lambdabot Title: &lsquo;clothes peg iconography&rsquo;, http://tinyurl.com/fwkqu
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09:14 svnbot6 r13062 | renormalist++ | cperl-mode.el: handle regexp modifiers :Perl5 :perl5 :P5 more explicity
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09:50 svnbot6 r13063 | audreyt++ | * Fix "make ghci" in conjunction with Perl5 embedding;
09:50 svnbot6 r13063 | audreyt++ |   embed flags now never affects "make ghci" prompts, and
09:50 svnbot6 r13063 | audreyt++ |   the _stub.o files, if any, are deleted prior to entering ghci.
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10:04 TreyHarris audreyt: i ran ext/libwww-perl/t/live.t five times in a row, and three of those times I got sigbus, "illegal hardware instruction", once i got...oh, it scrolled off but it told me to report a compiler error to GHC, and once all tests passed :-)
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10:29 nothingmuch hmm
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10:32 TreyHarris time for me to sleep
10:32 nothingmuch oh
10:32 nothingmuch i thought you woke up early
10:32 TreyHarris no, hacksies keep the sleepydust away ;-)
10:33 * TreyHarris & zzzzz
10:33 * nothingmuch woke up at 8:15 today... </impressive>
10:33 nothingmuch ciao
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11:31 agentzh TreyHarris: i suggest you stick with eval_dies_ok as much as possible since it provides detailed parsefail diagnostic info via stderr.
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11:55 agentzh TreyHarris: btw, for smartlinks, putting section name in quotes is okay. :)
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11:57 agentzh marstos: there's something wrong with the format of your last pugs blog post. i strongly recommend you to use pod to generate well-formed HTML. ;-)
11:57 agentzh *markstos
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12:11 prism is it normal for compile to take over 800 hours?
12:11 prism 77337 root          1 128    0 26684K 25112K CPU0   0 792:26 99.22% ghc-6.4.2
12:11 prism well nearly 800 hours
12:11 nothingmuch 800 hours is about 1 month
12:12 prism maybe thats minutes
12:12 nothingmuch *nod*
12:12 prism is it normal to take that long
12:12 nothingmuch in that case - maybe
12:12 prism its a fastish system
12:12 prism dual amd athlon mp
12:12 nothingmuch hmm
12:12 nothingmuch ghc 6.6 might improve the situation
12:12 nothingmuch how much ram does it have?
12:12 prism 4gb
12:12 nothingmuch should be plenty
12:12 prism each chip is around 2Ghz
12:12 nothingmuch i'm afraid i can't help much more
12:13 prism and its using 100% of bot chips
12:13 prism both*
12:13 nothingmuch it doesn't sound normal
12:13 chris2 13h seems a bit too much
12:13 prism hmm i think ill grab it from a package instead of using ports
12:13 chris2 even my slow ibook only needs ~8h, with a lot less ram
12:13 gaal prism: what file is the compilation on?
12:13 prism ../../../glafp-utils/mkdependC/mkdependC -f .depend    -I. -Iinclude -I../../includes  -- -O -I. -Iinclude    -- cbits/directory.c cbits/rawSystem.c
12:13 prism /usr/ports/lang/ghc/work/ghc-6.4.2-boot/bin/i386-unknown-freebsd/ghc-6.4.2 -M -optdep-f -optdep.depend  -osuf o -optdep--exclude-module=System.Directory.Internals   -H16m -O -I. -Iinclude -Rghc-timing -ignore-package Cabal -I../../../libraries -fglasgow-exts -no-recomp Compat/Directory.hs Compat/RawSystem.hs Distribution/Compat/FilePath.hs Distribution/Compat/ReadP.hs Distribution/Compiler.hs Distribution/GetOpt.hs Distribution/Install
12:13 prism edPackageInfo.hs Distribution/License.hs Distribution/Package.hs Distribution/ParseUtils.hs Distribution/Version.hs Language/Haskell/Extension.hs
12:13 prism err
12:14 prism sorry for the mini flood
12:14 prism didnt realize it was that big
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12:14 gaal er, what are you compiling? pugs or ghc?
12:14 prism pugs
12:14 nothingmuch looks like it's bootstrapping ghc to do that
12:14 prism ghc must be a dep
12:14 gaal ouch
12:15 nothingmuch get a binary ghc
12:15 prism permission for another mini flood?
12:15 gaal perlbot nopaste
12:15 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
12:15 pasteling "prism" at 88.109.10.46 pasted "pugs" (7 lines, 584B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19486
12:16 gaal pugs depends on freetype?
12:16 prism according to ports it does
12:16 gaal that's.... interesting
12:17 prism its ok i grabbed it via pkg
12:17 prism its nearly installed now
12:17 prism but that compile was worrying
12:17 prism what is ghc anyway and why is it such a monster to compile
12:17 gaal prism: I don't know much about gentoo, but isn't is possible to get a binary ghc?
12:17 nothingmuch ghc is the glasgow haskell compiler
12:17 gaal ghc is the haskell compiler we use.
12:17 nothingmuch that's freebsd, not gentoo
12:17 prism gaal, i dont know much about gentoo either
12:17 gaal (and depend on)
12:18 gaal oops, sorry, don't know much about freebsd either :)
12:18 prism :)
12:18 prism nothingmuch, hmm seems a big compile still.. its like compiling some of the big math programs for linear calculations
12:18 prism i set them things going before i go on holiday
12:18 prism lol
12:18 nothingmuch prism: same ballpark, methinks
12:19 nothingmuch haskell is a tricky language to compile
12:19 nothingmuch and ghc is a tricky project
12:19 nothingmuch since ghc is written in haskell...
12:19 gaal prism: yes you generally don't want to build your own ghc unless you really need to.
12:19 prism fuck ghc depends on compat 4x
12:19 prism yuck*
12:19 prism sorry bad typoe their*
12:19 nothingmuch heh
12:20 nothingmuch prism++ # cutet
12:20 prism :)
12:20 nothingmuch ack, your typos are infecting me
12:20 gaal what's compat 4x?
12:20 prism gaal, their are 4 primary releases so to speak of freebsd
12:20 prism 4
12:20 prism 5
12:20 prism and the latest 6
12:20 prism current is 7
12:20 prism 4 has been dropped its well in-efficiant
12:20 gaal ouch again.
12:20 prism dragonfly is based on 4 it uses a diffrent threading model
12:21 prism 5 was an improvement, to threading at least.
12:21 prism 6 was the improvement again of 5
12:21 prism and 7 is a big improvement over 6
12:21 prism but the changes where so large they could not be put into the same 'id' i.e. 6.1-release 6.2-release etc.
12:21 prism so they had to up the entire 'id'
12:21 prism well version is probably a more correct word
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12:22 nothingmuch prism: you might want to ask the freebsd folks on #haskell
12:22 nothingmuch they'll prollly know more
12:22 prism its ok i have the package now, I have never even seen a perl6 script im just goona install and fiddle around with it with google open, im mainly intrested in more sane if's
12:23 nothingmuch well, you can ask Juerd for an account on feather, the perl 6 devel box
12:23 nothingmuch so that you can toy around with a compiled pugs
12:23 prism if ($blah eq ($bleh || $test)) { .. } instead of: 'if (($blah eq $bleh) || ($blah eq $test)) { ... }
12:23 nothingmuch those are junctions
12:24 nothingmuch if ( $blah eq ( $bleh | $test ) ) { } # one pipe
12:24 gaal on e|
12:24 prism junctions you say hmm sorry incorrect terminology i just know it would help me alot when i have 20 or 30 nested
12:24 prism i have lines in standard perl that are so long it takes 5 minutes to get to the right coloum
12:25 nothingmuch if you have that many you should probably rely on polymorphism instead
12:25 nothingmuch some form of dispatch table
12:25 nothingmuch like OO, or a hash of subs
12:25 prism hmmm also i would like to get to know perl6 for when it eventually takes over perl5
12:25 prism 8)
12:25 prism dont wanna be out in the cold
12:26 nothingmuch =)
12:26 prism does perl6 have poe and others?
12:26 nothingmuch not yet... it has some modules
12:26 nothingmuch but yoou can use perl5 modules in pugs
12:26 prism io::select etc?
12:27 nothingmuch hmm
12:27 nothingmuch i'm not sure if we have that yet
12:27 prism do we have cpan
12:27 nothingmuch a cpan like thing?
12:27 prism yes
12:27 nothingmuch not yet.. everyone commits to the pugs repo
12:28 nothingmuch btw, do you have a commit bit?
12:28 prism ah i can find perl6 modules in ports
12:28 prism no not yet
12:28 nothingmuch i doubt it
12:28 prism Port:   p5-Perl6-Subs-0.05
12:28 prism Path:   /usr/ports/lang/p5-Perl6-Subs
12:28 prism Port:   p5-Perl6-Form-0.04
12:28 prism Path:   /usr/ports/devel/p5-Perl6-Form
12:28 nothingmuch they're not really used in production yet
12:28 prism Port:   p5-Perl6-Export-0.07
12:28 prism Path:   /usr/ports/devel/p5-Perl6-Export
12:28 prism :)
12:28 nothingmuch that's a perl 5 module for perl 6 like things
12:28 prism oh
12:28 prism ah of course p5-
12:28 nothingmuch s/that's a/those are/
12:28 nothingmuch /msg me or gaal or someone an email address
12:29 nothingmuch you can say it out here, but this channel is logged on the web
12:29 prism paul@alchemy-networks.co.uk
12:29 nothingmuch and might be spam harvested
12:29 prism thats ok that email address is special
12:29 prism ill need to know what email address you send from though
12:29 nothingmuch okies, you're going to get an invite in a sec
12:29 nothingmuch hmm...
12:29 nothingmuch prolly [email@hidden.address]
12:29 nothingmuch but i'm not sure
12:29 prism ill just allow in openfoundry.org
12:30 prism I block all emails that are not on a list for that address
12:30 prism its for digests and the like
12:30 nothingmuch *nod*
12:30 prism wow its hot in england at the moment
12:31 nothingmuch UGHHHHHHH safari!!
12:31 nothingmuch run!
12:32 nothingmuch okay, invite sent
12:32 prism ok hehe :)
12:33 prism does perl6 depend on perl5 strictly for backwards compatability or can i mix and max modeules to
12:33 nothingmuch ?
12:34 prism include perl5 modules within a perl6 script that includes perl6 modules
12:34 prism do they integrate
12:34 nothingmuch ah
12:34 nothingmuch yes, they integrate
12:34 prism neat
12:34 nothingmuch there are some examples
12:35 prism i have a poe spam detection program im planning to run on freenode be nice if i could half progarm it in perl6 (sort of a personal development project)
12:35 prism im also trying to port it to erlang but that is well never dealing with erlang, slighly daunting.
12:36 * nothingmuch 'd like to learn erlang some day
12:36 prism poe suffers slightly when your dealing with massive data structures, im just wondering if i should program my own sort of mini database instead of just using a 3 dimensional hash
12:36 nothingmuch BerkeleyDB?
12:36 nothingmuch if you want performance you won't find it with pugs
12:36 nothingmuch so far it's completely unoptimized
12:37 nothingmuch and roughly an order of magnitude slower than perl 5
12:37 prism --funrol-loops 8)
12:37 prism j/k lol
12:37 prism how does perl6 compare to perl5
12:37 prism equal or slower?
12:37 prism i imagined it being based in haskell it would be alot quicker
12:37 nothingmuch perl 6 in theory? or right now?
12:37 prism right now, and the future
12:37 nothingmuch well, it's an unoptimized interpreter written in haskell
12:38 nothingmuch vs an optimized interpreter written in C
12:38 nothingmuch perl 5 is faster right now
12:38 prism thats suprising
12:38 nothingmuch otoh, perl 6 is not just an interpreted language
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12:38 nothingmuch it can be compiled, and it has static types
12:38 prism thats good
12:38 nothingmuch and the ability to declare classes etc as closed
12:38 prism has it got the portability perl5 has yet
12:38 nothingmuch not yet
12:38 prism say if i was a masochist i might want to run something on win32, that wasnt a format command
12:39 nothingmuch gaal: do you run pugs on windows?
12:39 Limbic_Region I do
12:39 Limbic_Region particle does
12:40 Limbic_Region I could dig up a few others if you forced me too
12:40 prism where can I checkout availible pugs packages
12:40 Limbic_Region by packages you mean modules?
12:40 Limbic_Region they are in the ext/ dir in the repo
12:41 prism is the location of the repository contained in this email
12:41 Limbic_Region http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/ext/
12:41 lambdabot Title: Revision 13063: /ext
12:41 prism thank you
12:41 Limbic_Region you can find just about everything Pugs related from the pugs homepage
12:41 Limbic_Region http://pugscode.org
12:41 lambdabot Title: Pugs - pugscode
12:42 * nothingmuch goes back to hacking
12:42 Limbic_Region if you find something pugs related that is not mentioned on the pugs homepage, please bring it to our attention so it can be rectified
12:42 nothingmuch prism: good luck with pugs =)
12:42 nothingmuch hehhe, you said "rectified" </bevis & butthead>
12:42 prism if pugs does not have poe nro io::select can it handle multiple tasks in some kind of framework, such as multiple tcp connections or object manipulation
12:42 prism s/nro/nor
12:43 Limbic_Region prism - just because the frameworks haven't been written doesn't mean it can't be done
12:43 prism nothingmuch, also a note on erlang, the entire first part of the book is free online, it teachs you most of the basics, hang around in #erlang and the rest slots in pace :)
12:43 prism place*
12:43 Limbic_Region you have to understand that the Perl 6 language specification is perpetually being updated
12:43 prism I can get you a link if you wish
12:44 prism Limbic_Region, oh I know it can be done, I was just wondering if any frameworks have been written
12:44 Limbic_Region and the primary focus of pugs hackers are on getting the pugs internals to either implement spec'd features
12:44 prism Limbic_Region, anything is possible in any language :D
12:44 Limbic_Region or to keep up with the changing specs
12:44 nothingmuch prism: my big problem is timei ;-)
12:44 Limbic_Region or to boldly go where no one has gone before and suggest new specs
12:45 Limbic_Region so with the focus primarily on internals - examples and modules take a back seat
12:45 Limbic_Region there is a great deal of value however in volunteers writing examples and modules
12:45 Limbic_Region so please, step up
12:45 prism Limbic_Region, how about p6-star-trek, pkg-descy a module for perl6 that gives warp speed calculations
12:45 Limbic_Region we end up finding bugs in pugs
12:45 prism 8-)
12:45 Limbic_Region unimplemented features
12:45 Limbic_Region poor specs in corner cases, etc
12:45 nothingmuch or finding features and unimplemented bugs ;-)
12:46 prism nothingmuch, hehe not enough hours in the day
12:46 prism nothingmuch, I still have not received that email yet,
12:47 Limbic_Region prism - personally, I would rather the folks that can hack on Pugs internals (Haskell) continue to focus on the internals and leave the primarily perl 5 hackers to write examples and modules (perl 6)
12:47 prism Limbic_Region, who are the pugs hackers
12:47 Limbic_Region we all are
12:47 Limbic_Region I guess you meant internal hackers
12:47 prism yes :)_
12:48 Limbic_Region there really aren't that many but I don't know of a list specific to internals
12:48 prism ok
12:48 Limbic_Region the AUTHORS file lists everyone who has contributed in some way to Pugs
12:48 Limbic_Region at least everyone who has allowed themselves to be identified
12:48 prism is their a projected estimate on the time pugs6 will become release
12:49 Limbic_Region prism - again, you have to understand that the Perl 6 language specification is a constantly changing target
12:49 Limbic_Region it can't be release ready until the language is
12:49 Limbic_Region though
12:49 Limbic_Region audreyt does have a timeline/release plan
12:49 prism excellent, is it availible online
12:49 Limbic_Region that would allow for a "we pretty much have enough to let you chew on for a while"
12:50 Limbic_Region is what available online
12:50 Limbic_Region the Perl 6 language specification?
12:50 Limbic_Region yes
12:50 prism audreyt's plan
12:50 Limbic_Region oh, yes - also on the pugs homepage
12:50 prism thanks ill go check that out
12:50 Limbic_Region I believe it is at http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/docs/01Overview.html
12:50 lambdabot Title: Pugs Apocryphon 1, http://tinyurl.com/hnjwx
12:51 prism Ok
12:51 prism I have some reading to do, as the pkg for ghc/pugs is now installed
12:51 prism thank you for your help Limbic_Region, nothingmuch :)
12:53 Limbic_Region no worries - welcome aboard
12:53 Limbic_Region please remind us in a while if your email still hasn't arrived
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13:02 gaal nothingmuch: rarely
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13:13 svnbot6 r13064 | agentz++ | [t/README]
13:13 svnbot6 r13064 | agentz++ | - added a sample for generic links without quotes.
13:14 agentzh hehe, prism was compiling ghc. so there's no wonder why the compilation took him *so much* time on a *so good* machine.
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13:41 rodi ?eval my $a = sprintf("%b",1)
13:41 evalbot_r13059 is now known as evalbot_r13064
13:41 evalbot_r13064 pugs: Printf.printf: bad formatting char b
13:41 svnbot6 r13065 | agentz++ | [t/closure_traits/init.t]
13:41 svnbot6 r13065 | agentz++ | - added one more smartlink.
13:41 svnbot6 r13065 | agentz++ | - cleaned up the comments.
13:42 agentzh yeah, i also noticed that a few days ago...while adding tests to sprintf.t
13:43 rodi adding a few now :)
13:43 agentzh not sure if it's a bug or not.
13:43 agentzh since it's unspec'd
13:43 rodi It's spec'd:
13:43 agentzh so i held back.
13:44 agentzh oh?
13:44 rodi Functions.pod
13:44 rodi errr...
13:44 rodi Synopsis 29 doesn't count, does it?
13:44 agentzh it says sprintf is like C's sprintf.
13:44 agentzh it counts.
13:44 rodi Under "the directives are:" it lists b.
13:44 agentzh larry has blessed it as official more or less.
13:45 rodi oh, cool.
13:45 agentzh great
13:46 agentzh rodi: or you can even implement that except for writing tests.
13:46 agentzh :)
13:46 rodi agentzh: you've been listening to audreyt too much :-D
13:47 rodi I actually spent the last week or so trying to get my head around Haskell, which I think
13:47 rodi I have accomplished except for Monads, which I still don't grok.
13:47 agentzh rodi: i'm serious though. in Prelude.pm, using Perl 6. :)
13:48 agentzh but i'm not quite sure if it's better to implement that on Haskell land for efficiency reasons.
13:49 * agentzh is still in fear of haskell.
13:50 gaal agentzh: Haskell is great fun! the way to overcome fear of it is to persist enough in learning it until you get to refactor something -- then you first realize how great it is
13:50 rodi but you still won't know what a Monad is...
13:51 agentzh gaal: i'm sure there's some day that i can grok pugs' haskell internals. thank you for your suggestions. :)
13:52 gaal rodi: yes, they're not easy but you don't have to know everything before knowing something
13:53 Limbic_Region audreyt - ping
13:54 gaal (baby haskell is fine, just like baby perl)
13:54 Limbic_Region perl5 embedding still doesn't work unless env variable is set PUGS_EMBED="perl5"
13:55 gaal the problem is that some basic things require monads, so it's a seemingly magical obstacle to voodoo around (=<< do >> <- fmap) until you get your cargo cult rites just so
13:59 gaal the difference between Perl golf and Haskell golf is that (typically) to shorten Haskell code you employ a deep observation about your problem. In Perl golf you employ the visage of something from the abyss...
13:59 svnbot6 r13066 | rodi++ | added an eval_ok for sprintf() with "%b".
14:03 rodi Prelude.pm is actually not that daunting...
14:06 gaal Oh I didn't mean to imply Perl's a horrible language. I rather like it. :)
14:06 gaal I meant that the hardcore golfage usually relies on quirks of the implementation
14:07 rodi LOL, that wasn't meant as a followup- merely as an independent discovery that temporally coincided :)
14:07 rodi I am looking for the right place to muck with sprintf()
14:07 gaal ah
14:07 gaal if you do it in Prelude.pm, all runcores benefit from it.
14:08 gaal so if one of them doesn't have a native sprintf to exploit, tada.
14:09 gaal nothingmuch likes to make the point that eveything should have at least a reference implementation, at least in principle, in pure Perl 6, and that the runtime chooses whether to override that with its own more efficient implementations.
14:09 onsen joined perl6
14:10 gaal but... I thought there already *was* some printfy code in the prelude?
14:10 rodi there is.
14:10 rodi looks like someone forgot %b :)
14:10 rodi nope, I'm wrong.
14:11 rodi it's there.
14:17 efunneko joined perl6
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14:22 ofer0 joined perl6
14:23 agentzh Pugs::Internals::sprintf, hehe.
14:23 rodi yeah, where /is/ that?
14:23 agentzh HS land?
14:25 christopher_ joined perl6
14:25 gugod_ joined perl6
14:25 agentzh grep has told me it's defined in src/Pugs/Prim.hs
14:25 gugod_ is now known as gugod
14:25 rodi yup, looking at it.
14:25 agentzh src/Pugs/Prim.hs:op2 "Pugs::Internals::sprintf" = \x y -> do
14:26 rodi heh,
14:26 rodi    -- XXX printf should be wrapped in a catch so a mis-typed argument
14:26 rodi    -- doesnt kill pugs with a runtime exception.
14:27 agentzh ?eval { START { say "hello" } }
14:27 evalbot_r13064 is now known as evalbot_r13066
14:27 evalbot_r13066 OUTPUT[hello ] \Bool::True
14:27 onsen_ joined perl6
14:27 agentzh ?eval my $sub = { START { say "hello" } };
14:27 evalbot_r13066 \{Syn "block" {Syn "block" {Pad SState "$?START_RUN" := #<ref:0xb6e495dc>                                       "$?START_RESULT" := #<ref:0xb6e49608>                            Syn "if" {App &postfix:++ (: Var "$?START_RUN");                                      Var "$?START_RESULT";                                      Syn "=" {Var "$?START_RESULT";                                               App (Syn "sub" {{Syn "block" {App &say (:
14:28 agentzh hey, could anyone tell me what's happening here?
14:28 agentzh gaal: is there a quick fix?
14:29 * agentzh doesn't want to wrap the START {} tests with eval_is or eval_ok.
14:33 penk joined perl6
14:45 rodi ?eval sprintf("%b",1) # where does the following error message come from?
14:45 evalbot_r13066 pugs: Printf.printf: bad formatting char b
14:46 gottreu joined perl6
14:47 rodi aaaah, I see- Haskell land.
14:47 svnbot6 r13067 | agentz++ | [t/syntax/POD.t]
14:47 svnbot6 r13067 | agentz++ | - changed q(...) to q{...}.
14:48 agentzh START {} is behaving oddly in pugs.
14:49 agentzh oh, sorry, it's for's fault in fact...
14:49 agentzh ?eval for 1..2 { say }
14:49 evalbot_r13066 OUTPUT[  ] undef
14:49 vel joined perl6
14:49 gottreu left perl6
14:50 agentzh ?eval for 1..2 -> $_ { say }
14:50 evalbot_r13066 OUTPUT[  ] undef
14:50 agentzh pugs--
14:50 rodi ?eval for 1..2 { $_.say }
14:50 gaal agentzh: you're getting the AST of the block
14:50 evalbot_r13066 OUTPUT[1 2 ] undef
14:50 gaal and re -> $_ say, I don't think builtins default to say any more...
14:51 gaal you have to say ".say"
14:52 rodi So, it appears that pugs relies on Haskell's Printf, which appears to lack %b (at least in my '/usr/lib/hugs/libraries/Text/Printf.hs').  Am I probably missing some better Haskell library, or is this consistent with others' experience?
14:52 agentzh ?eval for 1..2 { .say }
14:52 evalbot_r13066 OUTPUT[1 2 ] undef
14:52 agentzh ?eval for 1..2 { say $_ }
14:52 evalbot_r13066 is now known as evalbot_r13067
14:52 evalbot_r13067 OUTPUT[1 2 ] undef
14:52 gaal agentzh: remind me, what does START mean?
14:53 gaal agentzh: anyway (I don't know if this is correct or not, but) you're evaluating to the code block value itself, so that's being printed. *that* is correct.
14:53 gaal viz
14:53 agentzh gaal: please see L<S04/Closure traits>
14:53 gaal ?eval {say "hi"}
14:53 evalbot_r13067 OUTPUT[hi ] Bool::True
14:54 gaal heh.
14:54 gaal ?eval {say "hi"}.perl
14:54 evalbot_r13067 "\{Syn \"block\" \{App \&say (: \"hi\")}}"
14:54 agentzh gaal: okay, i know what you mean, but i think the value of START {} should be returned.
14:54 agentzh START {} is the old FIRST {}
14:55 agentzh gaal: currently i'm suffering from weird parsefail of one test for START {}
14:56 agentzh gaal: i think it has relations with the for statement.
14:56 gaal huh, IRTR START is only parsed, not implemented at all?
14:56 agentzh gaal: it's perfectly implemented by luqui++.
14:56 gaal so that reduces to
14:57 gaal ?eval { { say "moose" } }
14:57 evalbot_r13067 OUTPUT[moose ] Bool::True
14:57 gaal er.
14:57 gaal okay.
14:57 gaal :)
14:57 agentzh all tests for START {} are passing except that this one...err, i'd better paste it.
14:57 rafl joined perl6
14:58 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "A weird parsefail in a test for START {}" (29 lines, 495B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19491
14:59 agentzh that's a story about `for' or `$_', i'm afraid.
15:00 agentzh gaal: sorry, the previous outputs of evalbot are totally correct.
15:00 agentzh gaal: the real problem is in the paste.
15:00 gaal ?eval my $x = { { say "moose" } };
15:00 evalbot_r13067 \{Syn "block" {Syn "sub" {{Syn "block" {App &say (: "moose")}}}}}
15:01 gaal agentzh: yes, I agree
15:01 gaal I don't know a fix off hand, sorry, and no tuits atm to look into it
15:01 agentzh gaal: it doesn't matter. :)
15:01 agentzh ?eval my $s; for 1..2 { START { $s ~= $_ } }
15:01 evalbot_r13067 Error:  unexpected "}" expecting comment Closure traits take no formal parameters
15:02 agentzh that's it.
15:02 mako132 joined perl6
15:02 agentzh audreyt: please look into this START {} bug when you're back from $work. ;-)
15:03 gaal ok please commit this as a pugsbugs or whatever that's called this week :)
15:06 agentzh gaal: i'd rather put it into t/statements/start.t and wrap the parsefail with eval_is. :)
15:06 agentzh sorry, t/closure_traits/start.t
15:08 agentzh end of day for me &
15:08 svnbot6 r13068 | agentz++ | [t/closure_traits/start.t]
15:08 svnbot6 r13068 | agentz++ | - moved all the old tests from first.t to this file due
15:08 svnbot6 r13068 | agentz++ |   to the recent FIRST {} renaming in the Synopses.
15:08 svnbot6 r13068 | agentz++ | - added many more tests and smartlinks.
15:08 svnbot6 r13068 | agentz++ | Status:
15:08 svnbot6 r13068 | agentz++ | - only the first group of tests are mysteriously
15:08 svnbot6 r13068 | agentz++ |   failing. it's obviously a bug related to $_ or the
15:08 svnbot6 r13068 | agentz++ |   ``for'' statement. fixes under src/ are welcome. :)
15:08 agentzh left perl6
15:11 svnbot6 r13069 | malon++ | run-smoke, smokeserv-client: send both .html and .yml, allow multiple servers
15:19 weinig|zZz is now known as weinig|bbl
15:20 Limbic_Region particle ping
15:22 glasser left perl6
15:29 gaal agentzh++ sure thing
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15:40 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
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16:25 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
16:37 mugwump audreyt: I'm told you've been doing recent work on 6pan.  care to talk about it?
16:45 rodi so, not saying I'd do this, but...
16:45 * Limbic_Region waits to hear what rodi is volunteering to do
16:46 rodi should `sprintf(%b, $n)` be implemented in Perl, could I just put it into Prelude.pm?
16:46 rodi It looks like pugs has enough bit operators (though bit.t is in bad shape- more on that later) to do it
16:47 rodi Limbic_Region: ;)
16:47 kanru joined perl6
16:48 araujo joined perl6
16:49 araujo hi!
16:49 araujo :-)
16:51 rodi araujo: hi!
16:56 mauke_ joined perl6
17:02 PerlJam mugwump: ping
17:03 mugwump hello
17:04 frederico joined perl6
17:04 * mugwump aims for closer adherance to IRCMP RFC by saying PerlJam
17:05 PerlJam mugwump: I was just reading the CPAN6 and Pause6 paper and something occurred to me: Why doesn't CPAN store rpms or debs?
17:05 PerlJam wouldn't that be in the spirit of "comprehensive"?
17:05 bernhard joined perl6
17:06 mugwump indeed, and we have dedicated much thought to this, too
17:07 PerlJam mugwump:
17:07 PerlJam mugwump: Well, I must say that I like what I'm reading
17:07 araujo hello rodi
17:08 mugwump excellent, well, please sign  up to the list!  :)
17:08 PerlJam mugwump: I particulary like the idea of "distributed PAUSE" that you've got with scribes.  (I was going to suggest it until I got to the part that described scribes :)
17:10 rgs mugwump: did you migrate accounts to older lists to pause6 and cpan6 ML ?
17:10 mugwump rgs: like 6pan etc?
17:10 rgs yes
17:11 mauke_ is now known as mauke
17:11 mugwump got a link handy, or can you help by e-mailing it to me?
17:12 rgs mugwump: well, the fact is that I've been just subscribed to pause6 :)
17:12 rgs so that's why I'm asking
17:12 rgs I was going to subcribe anyway
17:12 mugwump I invited a total of about 19 people
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ | smokeserv - smartlinks-server.pl, refresh-smoked-synopses.pl added
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |  * First try at producing synopsis versions with inlined smoke,
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |    each time a smoke report is submitted
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |  * The synopses will be offered as a new link, to the right of the
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |    current Test::TAP::HTML link, on the smoke server index page.
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |    This might not be the nicest arrangement, but it's an easy first step.
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |  * Clients are already sending the necessary .yml smoke (since r13069)
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |  * smartlinks-server.pl is branched from, and intended to replace,
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |    smokeserv-server.pl.
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |  * Either smartlinks-server needs to be renamed, or the clients
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |    need to send the smokes to smartlinks-server.pl instead
17:12 svnbot6 r13070 | malon++ |  * Might not work yet; contributions and reformatting are encouraged
17:15 mugwump argh, did you get subscribed completely?  I swore I selected "Invite", not "Subscribe"
17:18 buetow joined perl6
17:21 onsen joined perl6
17:23 rgs mugwump: I was subscribed to one, invited to another (to which I confirmed)
17:23 obra mugwump: why not do this via perl.org lists?
17:23 TreyHarris where is the paper PerlJam speaks of?
17:23 * obra wonders what to do with his 6pan domains
17:24 rgs sell them on ebay !
17:24 rgs or at a yapc auction
17:25 mugwump obra: I'd be happy to move them to a perl.org mailserver, it was in my ability to set this up myself
17:25 obra ok. how many lists do you need?
17:26 mugwump there are three main components; cpan6 (network), pause6 (administration), and the tools/clients.  I didn't think separate cpan6/pause6 would be worthwhile initially
17:26 mugwump so, I made two lists
17:27 mugwump TreyHarris: see cpan6.org
17:27 PerlJam TreyHarris: cpan6.org
17:27 obra mugwump: I suspect that right now, one list makes more sense.
17:27 obra since I bet just about everybody will actually care about all three right now ;)
17:28 obra Though the one thing I'd beg is "evolution, not reinvention" ;)
17:28 TreyHarris huh, was there an annoucement somewhere that i just managed to miss?
17:28 [particle] it was most likely at yapc::eu
17:28 mugwump correct
17:29 mugwump I certainly see cpan6 as an evolutionary step forward, rather than competing or undermining cpan
17:29 obra I meant to actually evolve cpan ;)
17:30 obra given the way the community is going (6on5, etc), I'm not much in favor of creating a brand new cpan for perl6.
17:30 * rgs concurs
17:30 mugwump we will distribute modules of all languages on cpan6
17:30 obra oh. this is freepan
17:31 PerlJam freepan minus the subversion repositories
17:31 obra ...that was freepan 1.0 ;)
17:31 mugwump yes, there are a couple of slides in the presentation that point out that cpan6 != Yet Another VCS
17:32 PerlJam Maybe call it CSAN if it's not to be perl-specific.  Comprehensive Software Archive Network
17:32 nothingmuch mooooosen
17:32 obra so, really, a perl6-cpan list (following the other perl6 lists) wouldn't be appropriate for your vision, Sam?
17:32 [particle] hey nm. what's moose with you?
17:33 mugwump the project is currently called cpan6, and it is different to cpan - but it will include and support cpan
17:33 mugwump Mark picked the name
17:33 [particle] it seems a misleading name
17:33 [particle] P != Perl
17:33 [particle] 6 != Perl 6
17:33 rgs c*anN
17:34 mugwump I'd rather we didn't bikeshed at this point, really.
17:34 [particle] i agree with that. what's in a name?
17:34 PerlJam picking a good name isn't so much bikeshedding IMHO.
17:35 obra mugwump: this is not a bikeshed. It's not a question about the name. it's a question about the spirit and intent of the project
17:35 PerlJam names are very important because you're modifiying the language people use to include this new thing you've created.
17:35 obra You've basically just defined freepan.
17:35 obra and, well, you've chosen a name that, if this were business land, would be begging for a cease and desist order.
17:35 mugwump no, it's more flexible than the freepan design
17:36 mugwump We asked Andreas first
17:36 obra it's the freepan vision I'm talking about. not ingy's implementation
17:36 obra Did you ask jarkko?
17:36 gaal what happened to the effort by kane and others?
17:36 gaal j something
17:36 mugwump We sent early design documents to Jarkko, and AFAIK he hasn't responded yet
17:36 obra andreas is the PAUSE-master. Jarkko created and named CPAN.
17:36 [particle] gaal: jsan?
17:37 gaal no, I think it was something around .debs but I forget the name
17:37 [particle] oh. good, cause jsan's a whole other ball of wax
17:37 obra mugwump: I, in my capacity as the P6PM would like to humbly request that you use a less confusingly similar name.
17:37 gaal JIB
17:37 * PerlJam resuggests CSAN  :)
17:38 [particle] sounds like cpan6 would encompass freepan, cpan, jsan, and whatever else
17:38 gaal it was called JIB, and it's in the pugs repo, or used to be
17:38 obra CSAN sounds great ;)
17:38 obra . o O {"CTAN6"}
17:38 [particle] i like CSAR
17:38 PerlJam "R"?
17:38 [particle] one comprehensive software archive repository to rule them all
17:39 mugwump heh
17:39 mugwump I see the 6 as an exponent
17:39 obra mugwump: and everyone else on the planet sees it as "perl6"
17:39 PerlJam indeed
17:39 mugwump why don't we make this an opening discussion on the list?
17:39 obra Because the list is a closed forum of people you've specifically invited.
17:40 mugwump it's not closed
17:40 PerlJam mugwump: because the list is poorly named too!  ;-)
17:40 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
17:40 obra it's still composed of people you've invited who have accepted your invitation.
17:40 PerlJam obra: I wasn't invited, but I've subscribed.
17:40 obra Why not bring it up on one of the existing perl6 mailing lists?
17:41 obra I will note that this is something like the fourth project to try to recreate the cpan for perl6.
17:41 [particle] which... p6-users?
17:41 obra [particle]: I'd actually say p6-l.
17:41 mugwump I'm really not sure what your intent with all of this is, obra.  Can we not just discuss the design, and once people have a better idea of what we're trying to do, then decide whether the name is wrong
17:41 gaal http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perl6-Bible/lib/Perl6/Bible/S22.pod
17:41 lambdabot Title: Synopsis_22 - CPAN [DRAFT] - search.cpan.org, http://tinyurl.com/gkufa
17:43 obra mugwump: because the thing you've described isn't CPAN and isn't focused on Perl6.
17:43 mugwump I think the name is quite appropriate; it's an evolutionary step forward from cpan6, that will include cpan, and the idea came from the requirements of perl 6.
17:43 mugwump er, s/6// :)
17:44 PerlJam Whatever it's called, I like the design that I've read so far.  Whether it duplicates existing efforts or not.
17:44 obra The fact that you didn't even get jarkko's blessing to use the name...somewhat disposes me against you.
17:45 obra If jarkko gives it his blessing, I'll shut up
17:45 dok left perl6
17:45 PerlJam obra: what if he gets aevil to give her blessing?  That's a tougher test than having Jarkko bless it even  ;-)
17:45 jdv79 once its up and running nobody will care about the name
17:46 obra PerlJam: but it's not her call.
17:46 PerlJam jdv79: they will.
17:46 jdv79 i don't care what CPAN is named - i just know that's where you go to get all things perl5
17:46 PerlJam jdv79: As soon as the name doesn't make sense; they will care.
17:47 jdv79 no, its doesn't matter - i go to 2 or 3 rpm repos - i dont care about the name - just whats in them and who's making then
17:47 jdv79 them rather
17:48 hexmode joined perl6
17:48 mugwump you could make the same complaint about any other variant on the name "cpan"
17:49 ruz joined perl6
17:50 PerlJam mugwump: anyway, regardless of the name (I too disagree with it, but I can put that aside for now), why bother with XML when you're using YAML?
17:51 mugwump Because there exists standards for XML Schemata, and we want to encourage widespread adoption with other languages
17:51 * [particle] wonders if there are yaml schemas
17:51 mugwump so, we will be transforming xml to yaml via a module of MarkOv's
17:52 mugwump including the XMLSchema documents.  So you shouldn't need to touch XML from an early on point
18:06 kane-xs gaal: it's .jib and the problem is with perl's way of stacking @INC :)
18:07 kane-xs gaal: till we mentally figure out what to do with that, the focus is on core-ifying CPANPLUS
18:08 kane-xs mugwump: from what i heard via-via, jarkko was offering advise etc, but got ignored.. perhaps best ping him agian on this
18:08 TreyHarris i have a stupid question.  why can't v6.pm be used to 6-ify the existing CPAN, and then CPAN is CPAN?  (and surely for XS and other such things that can't be finessed like that, Makefile.PL's can take care of it).  why do we need a separate Perl 6 CPAN?
18:09 kane-xs it's not 'CPAN.pm the code' taht's the problem currently :)
18:09 kane-xs hurray for overloading terminology
18:09 TreyHarris kane-xs: sorry, i was referring to the archive, not the module.  6-ify the existing modules
18:10 kane-xs technically, perl5 is supposed to be able to run in perl6, no?
18:10 kane-xs (just like p4 runs in p5)
18:10 TreyHarris why is a separate archive needed?
18:10 kane-xs so you wouldn't /have/ to touch the existing modules
18:10 TreyHarris kane-xs: right, that's my point, if we have forward and backwards compatibility, why a separate archive?
18:10 mugwump because, for instance, with perl 6, you can request any version of any module by any oauthor
18:10 kane-xs the archive format has quite a few short-comings, from an 'admin' point of view
18:11 kane-xs Makefile.Pls are not the best way to convey information to installers, etc
18:11 kane-xs compare Makefile.PL to debians system forexample
18:11 TreyHarris mugwump: and it's a hard and fast limitation in the current cpan that can only be addressed by replacing the entire thing?
18:11 iblechbot joined perl6
18:13 mugwump not alone, no
18:17 * mugwump has dinner with family while he is still in London &
18:17 TreyHarris i guess that's my question.  CPAN is Perl's crown jewel.  If it's going to be replaced--coming from a totally uninformed viewpoint, which is where 99% of CPAN's users will be coming from--I'd only switch to a different archive if it was a) painless, b) obvious to me why i was doing so, and c) i didn't feel like i was going out on a limb to do so, that i would still be in the bosom of the Perl community and be able to count on continuing support.  it ...
18:17 TreyHarris ... sounds like the answers to those points at the moment are a) possible it could be painless, but very possible it won't, so who knows, b) i still don't understand the motivation--CPAN has too much momentum to be replaced just because it could be done better; c) it sounds like there's a great deal of controversy
18:19 TreyHarris maybe these are just PR issues and not actual ones.  but reading cpan6.org, i don't see answers for these simple questions.
18:20 kane-xs TreyHarris: fair questions.. sounds like something mugwump could answer, surely :)
18:21 TreyHarris yeah, i was still typing when he left :-)
18:21 kane-xs hehe
18:22 kane-xs he'll be back i'm sure
18:26 rodi I hate to bring this all back to mundanity, but... I'm still bit-munging, and have another (new!) question:
18:26 rodi I have a Bool @array, and since:
18:26 rodi ?eval say Bool::False
18:26 evalbot_r13067 is now known as evalbot_r13070
18:26 evalbot_r13070 OUTPUT[ ] Bool::True
18:26 rodi I want to coerce the elements of the array to Int context, comme ca:
18:27 rodi ?eval say +Bool::False
18:27 evalbot_r13070 OUTPUT[0 ] Bool::True
18:27 rodi But I'm not sure how to do this to the whole array, to avoid:
18:27 rodi ?eval my Bool @a = (?0,?1,?0,?1); @a.say
18:27 evalbot_r13070 OUTPUT[11 ] Bool::True
18:27 rodi Anyone know either the answer or the right place to look?
18:29 [particle] ?@array= 0,1,1; @array.*+.say; # wild guess
18:29 TreyHarris rodi: do you need an answer today, or the canonical answer
18:29 svnbot6 r13071 | gaal++ | * Pugs.Parser - fix parsefail in closure traits referring to $_,
18:29 svnbot6 r13071 | gaal++ |   reported by agentzh++. t/closure_traits/start.t now passes all
18:29 svnbot6 r13071 | gaal++ |   tests.
18:29 [particle] nm, that's way wrong
18:29 TreyHarris +>>@a would numify all elements
18:29 TreyHarris but hyperops on unaries doesn't work today
18:29 rodi w00t!
18:29 rodi hyperop.t, here we come!
18:29 [particle] :)
18:30 TreyHarris oh, wait
18:30 TreyHarris ?eval my Bool @a = (?0,?1,?0,?1); +<<@a.say
18:30 evalbot_r13070 OUTPUT[11 ] Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
18:30 TreyHarris ?eval my Bool @a = (?0,?1,?0,?1); (+<<@a).say
18:30 evalbot_r13070 OUTPUT[0101 ] Bool::True
18:30 Limbic_Region particle - are you still having problems building with 6.4.1 with p5 embedding
18:30 TreyHarris there you go
18:30 TreyHarris :-)
18:30 rodi TreyHarris: wow.
18:30 rodi thanks.
18:31 [particle] l_r: with and without perl5 embedding
18:31 [particle] i can't build pugs
18:31 Limbic_Region ok - I am in the same boat now
18:31 [particle] do you have a 6.6 workaround?
18:31 Limbic_Region at least at work, - will need to try from home tonight
18:31 Limbic_Region in may be a Win32 issue and not a ghc issue
18:32 Limbic_Region s/in/it/
18:32 [particle] sure
18:32 TreyHarris oops, i think this is a bug
18:32 TreyHarris ?eval my @a = (Bool::True | Bool::False) x 12
18:32 evalbot_r13070 [("" | "111111111111"),]
18:32 TreyHarris anyone want to argue it's not?
18:33 TreyHarris (i think i should get 12 true/false junctions)
18:33 [particle] why is that a bug?
18:33 [particle] oh, right, junction
18:33 gaal false is "" in stringy context
18:34 gaal "" x 12 is ""
18:34 * [particle] suspects gaal++ is right
18:34 TreyHarris gaal: yes, i know.  so how to i construct a list of 12 elements, each (Bool::True|Bool::False)?
18:34 gaal if you want 12 junctions, say xx
18:34 gaal ?eval (True|False) xx 12
18:34 evalbot_r13070 ((Bool::False,    Bool::False,    Bool::False,    Bool::False,    Bool::False,    Bool::False,    Bool::False,    Bool::False,    Bool::False,    Bool::False,    Bool::False,    Bool::False) |   (Bool::True,    Bool::True,    Bool::True,    Bool::True,    Bool::True,    Bool::True,    Bool::True,    Bool::True,    Bool::True,    Bool::True,    Bool::True,    Bool::True))
18:34 gaal whee.
18:34 TreyHarris oh dear.
18:34 TreyHarris i thought i *did* use xx
18:35 TreyHarris thanks gaal :-)
18:35 gaal that's not very right though.
18:35 TreyHarris no, it's the list of 12 falses or the list of 12 trues
18:35 TreyHarris i want the list of 12 false-or-trues
18:35 gaal ?eval [True|False] xx 3 # I assume 3 is as good as 12 here
18:35 evalbot_r13070 is now known as evalbot_r13071
18:35 evalbot_r13071 ((Bool::False | Bool::True), (Bool::False | Bool::True), (Bool::False | Bool::True))
18:35 gaal better.
18:36 TreyHarris when did True andd False show up?  i must have missed that diff
18:36 [particle] why is false coming first? (not that it matters, really)
18:36 TreyHarris [particle]: junctions are definitionally unordered
18:36 [particle] ok
18:37 TreyHarris well, except when you compose one with any() and immediately use it in selective list context ;-)
18:37 TreyHarris then it's guaranteed to maintain the original order of the leftmost any() :-)
18:38 frederico joined perl6
18:39 * gaal proposes True be renamed to TrUe or something more annoying to type, to prevent code like "if ($the_value_to_check == TRUE)"
18:39 TreyHarris lol
18:40 gaal bad code is only funny when you don't have to maintain it yourself
18:40 [particle] why not have a smart compiler that warns on TRUE/true ?
18:40 TreyHarris gaal: yes, i know people who would loudly maintain that 'if ($the_vaule_to_check == TRUE)' is far more clear and maintainable than 'if $the_value_to_check'.
18:41 gaal supposedly these people think "if (($the_vaule_to_check == TRUE) == TRUE)" is exquisite.
18:42 [particle] true true
18:42 TreyHarris it's the 'verbosity, that is to say, a great, almost, but not quite to the point of, excessive circumlocutory utterance, promotes clarity" school of style ;-)
18:43 mugwump TreyHarris: you are asking good questions, and I hope as you read the design documents that you will see we are actually on the same page on those questions.
18:43 TreyHarris mugwump: you expect all CPAN users to read those documents?
18:43 mugwump no
18:43 mugwump they won't need to
18:43 TreyHarris mugwump: you should be able to answer in one sentence all my worries.
18:44 TreyHarris otherwise, you're not going to get uptake.  cpan is *huge*.
18:45 mugwump how about "cpan6 is distributed cpan, updated for security and multiple programming languages"
18:45 rodi take that! Stephen Wolfram, all your pretty pictures are belong to Perl 6!
18:45 TreyHarris "meh.  i only use it for Perl, and i've never had a security issue with my CPAN modules.  I'll stick with CPAN."
18:45 mugwump and of course you'll be able to!
18:47 TreyHarris and if everyone does so--or just those set who only use CPAN for Perl (100%) and haven't had a security issue with CPAN (>90% i'm sure), CPAN6 can still be a success?
18:47 lumi Just show how the cpan6 tools will make uploading a package 4 characters less
18:47 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
18:48 mugwump actually most people use CPAN for Perl and XS
18:49 svnbot6 r13072 | gaal++ | remove debug print
18:49 mugwump that's two languages
18:49 mugwump then there's also pir, pasm, pbc, etc
18:50 TreyHarris mugwump: i think that's sophistry.  XS is Perl, for a wider definitition of Perl, as are the rest of those.
18:50 mugwump right, so can you upload and fetch pir modules using cpan?
18:51 mugwump or perl6?
18:51 TreyHarris mugwump: ok.  so there's your PR line then: "CPAN will stop working once you move to Perl 6.  Use this instead."
18:52 TreyHarris That rather unfortunately kills one of the promises made by Perl 6's designers... but...
18:53 rodi anyone have a feeling about where in examples/ I should put a script to output wolfram-style cellular automata?
18:53 mugwump a good thing thats not he only pr line, that we have a comprehensive set of documents outlining the problems we are solving.
18:54 kane-xs mugwump: is there a quick faq one could point people at with 1 line problem, 1 line solution + link to more reading?
18:54 mugwump not established yet
18:55 TreyHarris mugwump: my point is that mere incremental technical prowess never caused any technology to overtake a very-well-entrenched one.
18:56 mugwump and a good point that is.  I would value your continued input in this process.
18:56 TreyHarris just take a look at how many better keyboards have come out since qwerty :-)
18:56 rindolf joined perl6
18:56 TreyHarris clearly their inventors didn't write enough technical documents for people to understand what problems they were solving :-)
18:58 mugwump I think in that case, it's just that the problems weren't big enough
19:01 svnbot6 r13073 | rodi++ | Example script (ported from an earlier Perl 5 version) to output
19:01 svnbot6 r13073 | rodi++ | Wolfram-style cellular automata in a terminal.
19:18 rodi the silence must be everyone rushing off to try my shiny, new script!
19:20 rodi any objection to my any("removal","replacement") of >> and << from t/operators/bit.t?
19:20 frederico joined perl6
19:25 TreyHarris rodi: i'm sorry?  i can't see any recent changes to t/operators/bit.t
19:25 rodi TreyHarris: I'm making changes, just wondering if there's any reason >> and << are still in there, since they're not part of Perl 6, AFAIK
19:25 Limbic_Region no, that's a question in advance TreyHarris
19:26 Limbic_Region rodi - what did they get replaced by?
19:26 rodi ?>, +>, etc.
19:26 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . bf id pl v wn
19:26 rodi LOL
19:26 rodi sorry, lambdabot
19:26 Limbic_Region rodi - I think I am confused - which Synopsis is this from
19:27 TreyHarris rodi: ah... yes.  the lack of smartlinks and the "mostly copied fro perl 5.8.4" is a giveaway :-)
19:27 rodi Limbic_Region: Synopsis 3
19:27 TreyHarris S02
19:27 TreyHarris 3
19:27 TreyHarris typo
19:27 Limbic_Region ok
19:28 rodi TreyHarris: hehe, I "needed" some of those operators in my recently committed script, along with sprintf("%b",$i), but worked around it for now,
19:28 rodi just want to add my tests in, figured I'd clean up while I was there.
19:28 TreyHarris Limbic_Region: L<S02/Changes to Perl 5 operators/Bitwise operators get a data type prefix> ;-)
19:29 * rodi copies into bit.t
19:29 Limbic_Region yes, but the >> and << operators still exist
19:29 Limbic_Region that's my confusion
19:29 TreyHarris oh dear
19:29 Limbic_Region they just serve a different purpose
19:29 TreyHarris oh
19:29 Limbic_Region hyperoperators
19:29 rodi Ahh, hyperops.
19:29 TreyHarris lol
19:29 Limbic_Region though they are technically unicode
19:29 TreyHarris they're different operators, then.  they're just isolexographic
19:30 rodi LOL
19:30 Limbic_Region actually, all unicode chars have reg ascii counterparts AFAIK, they just usually require more typing
19:30 Limbic_Region The Unicode characters » (\x[BB]) and « (\x[AB]) and their ASCII digraphs >> and << are used to denote
19:30 TreyHarris yes.  >>, Y... what else?
19:30 Limbic_Region that's quoted from S03
19:31 Limbic_Region TreyHarris - I am not keeping a list
19:31 Limbic_Region I was just confused when I saw "should I remove >> and << as they are no longer part of Perl 6"
19:31 Limbic_Region I guess I should have looked at the test name to see that it was for bit operations
19:32 TreyHarris ?eval 'a'..'d' Y 1..4
19:32 evalbot_r13071 is now known as evalbot_r13073
19:32 evalbot_r13073 (("a", 1), ("b", 2), ("c", 3), ("d", 4))
19:32 PerlJam It's the Y combinator!
19:32 PerlJam ;)
19:32 TreyHarris no, the Y combinator is spelled &?BLOCK ;-)
19:33 rodi while I'm at it... what do other folks here use for Unicode input in KDE?
19:33 Limbic_Region PerlJam - did you read aristotle's use.perl journal entry on the Y combinator
19:33 PerlJam rodi:  << and >> have gone away as bit shifters, but they've been replaced by +> and +< I do believe
19:33 PerlJam Limbic_Region: I did indeed.
19:33 * Limbic_Region still can't think of a good use for it in perl
19:34 Limbic_Region PerlJam - yes yes - just not the way I interpreted rodi's original comment
19:34 [particle] joined perl6
19:34 PerlJam Limbic_Region: the Ycomb is useful in perl when you want to live in a restricted universe of pure functional programming.
19:35 TreyHarris perl is an imperative language at its core style, no matter how many oo and functional and whotheheckknows what else gets poked onto it.  the Y combinator seems rather odd...
19:35 TreyHarris == PerlJam.  much more succinctly than i was going ;-)
19:36 PerlJam Think of it as validation.  Perl can do the Ycomb, ergo it's got all the same nifty magic that makes other languages important  ;-)
19:36 Limbic_Region PerlJam - I suppose.  Perl's main paradigm is definately imperative but it allows you to do both OO and Functional to a certain degree.  I just see no need not to put perl's flair on things
19:37 Limbic_Region IOW - A good Fortran programmer may be able to write Fortran in any language but that doesn't mean they should
19:37 Limbic_Region Just because I have the Y combinator doesn't mean I should use it when plenty of other tools will suffice
19:37 Juerd I try to write Perl in every language.
19:38 PerlJam Juerd++ me too
19:38 PerlJam And that's why it takes me a while to shift gears when I write C code :)
19:38 TreyHarris Juerd: I try too, and alas, the language often doesn't let me :-)
19:39 PerlJam PIR is perly enough that I can write it easily.
19:39 Limbic_Region Oh, I didn't see stvn's reply to how it will look in Perl 6
19:39 PerlJam there were no replies when I read it .... /me looks
19:39 TreyHarris Limbic_Region: URL?  i didn't either
19:39 Limbic_Region sub ($n) { return 1 if $n < 2; return $n * $?SUB.($n - 1); }
19:39 Limbic_Region no need for URL
19:40 PerlJam hrm.  use.perl.org is bizarro for me right now.
19:41 Limbic_Region I can see use for Perl 6's ability to anonymously refer to the current code block while in that block without having to predeclare it
19:41 TreyHarris i thought it was &?BLOCK, not $?SUB
19:41 Limbic_Region though I think they are mostly evil
19:41 Limbic_Region TreyHarris - stvn didn't claim the syntax was 100% correct
19:42 TreyHarris oh... $?SUB is the current lexical *named* sub.  &?BLOCK is the current runtime block
19:43 TreyHarris S02 and S06 do not seem to be entirely consistent on these points.  but maybe i need another reading
19:43 * TreyHarris needs a Perl 6 rabbi
19:43 nothingmuch TreyHarris: it's both
19:43 nothingmuch but with a & sigil
19:44 nothingmuch block is the current block
19:44 nothingmuch (Which is also a sub)
19:44 nothingmuch &?SUB is the current declared sub
19:44 nothingmuch which might be anon
19:44 nothingmuch i think
19:44 nothingmuch if it's only named there's no point in having it
19:45 TreyHarris oops.  yes, i meant declared, not named.  thanks.
19:45 TreyHarris thinko
19:45 TreyHarris but this business of some things being named by their sigilless forms and some named by their sigilfull forms is starting to get to me
19:46 weinig joined perl6
19:46 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..10; @foo>>++; ~@foo
19:46 evalbot_r13073 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
19:46 TreyHarris @a and $a, different vars.  @.a and $.a, same attribute.  &?BLOCK and $?BLOCK, same var.  @?INC and %?INC, different var
19:46 lambdabot Maybe you meant: all-dicts arr ask . v
19:46 Limbic_Region hmm - shouldn't that work?
19:47 TreyHarris Limbic_Region: markstos added a test for this just a couple days ago IIRC
19:47 * TreyHarris must run, back soonish. &
19:47 Limbic_Region okie dokie
19:48 Patterner hmm.... <quote> Warning: retaining unknown function `Pugs_trap_exit' in output from C compiler </>
19:48 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..3; @foo.>>say
19:48 evalbot_r13073 Error:  unexpected ">" expecting ".", subroutine name, variable name, array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript
19:48 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..3; @foo>>say
19:48 evalbot_r13073 Error:  unexpected ">" expecting "::", term postfix, comment, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
19:55 svnbot6 r13074 | gaal++ | * cleanups to parameter and signature parsers. also caught a bug
19:55 svnbot6 r13074 | gaal++ |   that would have parsed :( :($moose) ) as a named param with no
19:55 svnbot6 r13074 | gaal++ |   explicit label.
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20:07 rodi Should ?| and ?& be thought of as bitwise operators?
20:07 gaal no,
20:07 gaal ^| and ^& are.
20:08 rodi They're in L<S02/Changes to Perl 5 operators/Bitwise operators get a data type prefix>
20:08 Juerd rodi: + is for numeric bitwise
20:08 Juerd rodi: ~ is for stringy bitwise
20:09 Juerd rodi: ? is for boolean "bitwise", but forget the bitwise part there.
20:09 rodi Juerd: yep, writing tests in t/operators/bit.t now, and they're all in S03 together,
20:09 Patterner "segmentation fault  ./pugs ./examples/ca_wolfram.pl"
20:09 rodi trying to decide whether to put tests in there.
20:09 rodi Patterner: wha!
20:09 Juerd gaal: Mhat's ^ in that?
20:09 gaal er, meant +|
20:09 Patterner rodi: sorry
20:09 rodi I think gaal meant ~^, etc.
20:10 rodi Patterner: that makes me so sad!  runs great for me.  Which pugs version you got?
20:10 gaal I think gaal meant +^ etc but I have insider information :)
20:10 rodi LOL
20:10 Patterner Version: 6.2.12 (r13073)
20:10 Patterner it said ".............................x" and "............................xx", then died...
20:12 rodi Patterner: any error message?
20:12 Patterner nope
20:12 rodi and the other scripts in that dir work fine?
20:13 Patterner 0x00002b556679ebb8 in Parrot_FixedPMCArray_destroy () from ../parrot/blib/lib/libparrot.so.0.4.6
20:14 TreyHarris Patterner: try it again?
20:15 gaal z&
20:15 TreyHarris I get semi-random segfaults from pugs, and 9 times out of 10 just running again fixes it.  I can't explain this.
20:15 Juerd gaal: zoolean? :)
20:15 rodi Juerd: nice, I'm adding that to t/operators/bit.t now...
20:15 penk joined perl6
20:15 Patterner well, i got 5 seg faults out of 5 tries...
20:16 TreyHarris ah.
20:16 TreyHarris 03:03 < TreyHarris> audreyt: i ran ext/libwww-perl/t/live.t five times in a row, and three of those times I got sigbus, "illegal hardware instruction", once i got...oh, it scrolled off but it told me to report a compiler error to GHC, and once all tests passed :-)
20:16 TreyHarris so i've seen some weird behavior before :-)
20:16 Patterner sendmoremoney => No compatible subroutine found: "&collapse"
20:17 rodi wow, that's fun.  Patterner: I'm recompiling 13074, see if it wfm.
20:17 TreyHarris it just ran start-to-finish fine for me
20:17 TreyHarris at r13059
20:19 Patterner running test for 13074 now...
20:31 svnbot6 r13075 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - inner loop optimizations; makes v6.pm another 7% faster
20:36 Eimi joined perl6
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20:44 Eimi joined perl6
20:59 svnbot6 r13076 | rodi++ | Names for all tests, linkbacks to S03, additional tests for bitwise and
20:59 svnbot6 r13076 | rodi++ | shift operators, removed Perl 5 cruft.  Left some commented-out tests
20:59 svnbot6 r13076 | rodi++ | that are not valid for one reason or another.
21:06 Limbic_Region joined perl6
21:07 rodi Patterner: I just recompiled w/revision 13074, and can still run ca_wolfram.pl fine... not sure what's going on :(
21:13 Limbic_Region ok - for sure, pugs is b0rk on Win32
21:15 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 24.35.57.240 pasted "Win32 problem with embedding Perl 5 (header issues apparently) - setting PUGS_EMBED="!perl5" of no help" (432 lines, 13.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19498
21:17 Limbic_Region fwiw - this started happening in the last day or so and is a problem regardless of GHC versoin
21:17 Limbic_Region version even
21:18 Limbic_Region audreyt ping # if you backlog, see the Win32 issue nopasted above
21:27 obra What's the current status of Pugs on Javascript?
21:28 Limbic_Region obra - have you checked the smoke status?
21:28 obra yes
21:29 obra they show no tests passing on JS since um. january
21:29 Limbic_Region apparently 0%
21:29 Limbic_Region yeah
21:29 Limbic_Region not good
21:29 rodi ironpugs++
21:29 Limbic_Region Pugs 6.2.12    18 Aug 2006 16:05 Fri  152.60 min  0.00 % ok
21:30 Limbic_Region the interesting thing is - it took 2.5 hours to come up with the goose egg
21:30 TreyHarris hmmm... i didn't even smoke javascript
21:30 TreyHarris looks like make smoke doesn't do so by default?
21:30 Limbic_Region no
21:30 Limbic_Region smokeall would test all backends
21:30 Limbic_Region smoke just does the Perl 6 on GHC IIRC
21:31 rodi I heard smoking javascript causes cancer anyway...
21:31 obra the pugs smokes need a serious cleanout
21:31 TreyHarris ah.  given that make smoke takes 12 hours for me, i think i'll pass on the smokeall :-)
21:32 TreyHarris oh, not 12 hours.  4.
21:32 Limbic_Region well, there should be a way to smoke JS individually too
21:33 TreyHarris "jssmoke", according to the makefile
21:33 TreyHarris i'm trying it
21:33 Limbic_Region for a time - all the hackery was focused on the alternate backends
21:33 Limbic_Region that appears to have died off though
21:34 TreyHarris but of course it's recompiling pugs first.  *sigh*  am i the only one who gets recompilation even when no sources have changed?
21:34 Limbic_Region that was supposed to have been fixed
21:35 Limbic_Region wait is it actually compiling anything or is it just going through the motions to see if anything needs to be compiled
21:35 TreyHarris ah.  if that were fixed, then my "sudo make install" littering root-owned files in my working copy would go away
21:35 Limbic_Region I can't confirm/deny ATM without reverting pugs as the current rev doesn't compile on Win32
21:36 TreyHarris perhaps it just "goes through the motions", but:
21:36 TreyHarris % TZ=UTC ls -l pugs
21:36 TreyHarris -rwxr-xr-x   1 trey  admin  37802496 Sep  6 21:35 pugs
21:36 TreyHarris it is creating a new pugs
21:38 Limbic_Region hrm - I really did think that was fixed
21:39 rodi thanks, everyone, for the help with bitmunging today.
21:40 TreyHarris hmm.  every single test is saying "Error: Precompiled Prelude ("...perl5/PIL2JS/pil2js.pl") does not exist... Can't bless non-reference value at "...pil2js.pl line 77"
21:40 TreyHarris which would explain 0% success :-)
21:42 TreyHarris i cancelled the smoke.  no point I think :-)
21:45 Limbic_Region nope
21:47 * Limbic_Region saw obra volunteer to clean this all up though
21:48 obra Not a chance in hell
21:48 obra "I'm just the project manager" ;)
21:48 TreyHarris how do you smoke v6.pm?
21:55 * Limbic_Region pulls out his glock and asks TreyHarris to hold the wiggly bugger above his head
22:02 jon_ joined perl6
22:05 jon_ ?eval @x=<1 2 3>;print "@x";
22:05 evalbot_r13073 is now known as evalbot_r13076
22:05 evalbot_r13076 Error: Undeclared variable: "@x"
22:05 jon_ ?eval my @x=<1 2 3>;print "@x";
22:05 evalbot_r13076 OUTPUT[@x] Bool::True
22:07 mauke ?eval my @x=<1 2 3>;print "@x[]"
22:07 evalbot_r13076 OUTPUT[1 2 3] Bool::True
22:08 statico ?eval gerbils
22:08 evalbot_r13076 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&gerbils"
22:09 jon_ thank you mauke
22:14 TreyHarris or ?eval my @x=1..3; print "{@x}"
22:14 TreyHarris ?eval my @x=1..3; print "{@x}"
22:14 evalbot_r13076 OUTPUT[1 2 3] Bool::True
22:15 TreyHarris or, if you're feeling particularly oo-ish:
22:15 TreyHarris ?eval my @x=1..3; @x.join(" ").print
22:15 evalbot_r13076 OUTPUT[1 2 3] Bool::True
22:15 TreyHarris (of course, you probably want C<say>, not C<print>....)
22:22 plisk joined perl6
22:23 plisk left perl6
22:23 jon_ thanks TreyHarris, but while I like OO where it makes sense, I prefer things like say "@x[]" or say "{@x}"
22:24 TreyHarris well, those are just exactly "@[]".say ;-)
22:25 jon_ I know... it's just the aesthetics
22:25 TreyHarris which becomes $*OUT.say("@[]")
22:25 TreyHarris yep, i understand and agree :-)
22:26 jon_ cool... someone shares my quirks/foibles :)
22:27 TreyHarris now, let's not go too far ;-)
22:28 lisppaste3 joined perl6
22:28 TreyHarris I can't tell you how many times I've written 'print $fh: "blah blah"' in the past few weeks though when writing perl 5 code
22:29 TreyHarris indirect-object syntax without a colon just looks SO WRONG to me now.
22:37 avar haha:)
22:41 avar when you do "@[]".say what's the delimiter? S28 says $" is gone in place of @x.join, so what's { local $" = $str; print "@_\n"; } in Perl 6?
22:41 avar S28 draft that is
22:43 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
22:44 jferrero joined perl6
22:47 markstos joined perl6
22:47 avar b.t.w. has noone started writing the equivalent of perldoc in p5 for p6? The synopsis are really replacements for the Camel Book more for anything like that
22:49 lollan joined perl6
22:49 obra do you mean perldoc the command, perldoc the format or "the docs for perl"?
22:49 avar *more than ...
22:49 avar I mean stuff like perlvar, perlre etc.
22:50 obra nod
22:50 avar i.e. the actualy document shipped with the language for core functions et al.
22:50 obra I belive that the intent is to morph the synopses into that
22:55 TreyHarris ?eval my @a = 1..4; say "{@a.join(":")}"
22:55 evalbot_r13076 OUTPUT[1:2:3:4 ] Bool::True
22:55 markstos I started a new wiki page so we can help each other figure what some of less intuitive Pugs error messages mean:
22:55 TreyHarris avar: I think the above is the replacement
22:56 markstos http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?pugs_diagnostics
22:56 avar TreyHarris: So no, you can't do that:)
22:56 TreyHarris the idea being that spooky-action-at-a-distance vars, even localized, or being eschewed
22:56 TreyHarris avar: why can't you?
22:56 avar TreyHarris: I'm not displeased with that, just wondering what the default delimiter was
22:56 markstos I'm currently trying to figure out this one out:
22:56 markstos Can't modify constant item: VUndef
22:56 avar TreyHarris: I mean you can't define custom stringification delimiters with syntax sugar anymore:)
22:57 avar "{@a.join(":")}" not $"=":";"@a"
22:58 TreyHarris avar: ah.  well, not implemented this way yet, but I would assume that there's a multi method Array::as (Str) { self.join($mumble) }, and you'd change $mumble
22:59 TreyHarris and if $mumble were a package var or a class attribute, you could localize it
22:59 TreyHarris but if seriously $" is gone gone, it would be a private lexical or a constant, so you couldn't.
22:59 avar Yeah, but not really friendly:)
23:00 TreyHarris I dunno.  { temp Str.delimiter = ":"; say "@_" } seems friendlier to me...
23:01 avar "@_[]" :)
23:02 TreyHarris right. :-)
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23:12 markstos design question: If I have an object that want to serialize as YAML, but the YAML is /different/ than what a ".yaml" would normally produce, should I: 1. override ".yaml" to use a custom format for that object or 2. avoid the conflict and choose another name like ".as_yaml" ?
23:14 avar different how?
23:14 avar Is it invalid YAML or is the YAML module broken?
23:15 markstos This is for CGI.pm P6. It's useful to dump out the name/values of the params as YAML, but that's different than what you get if you just do $q.yaml
23:16 markstos It's probably better to avoid confusion by not using the builtin name.
23:16 avar ah, sorry
23:17 avar Well on the other hand, if it's compatable yaml I don't see why not
23:17 avar it could still be unserialized when needed by other yaml libs
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23:18 markstos I guess if people want the regular yaml, they could do something like $q.perl.yaml, which get the raw Perl, and then the raw yaml.
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23:53 markstos The follow creates an infinite loop, and I think it's a bug:
23:53 markstos class Foo { method yaml { my %s; return %s.yaml } } Foo.new.yaml;
23:54 markstos The bug is that %s.yaml calls "yaml" in the Foo class, even though %s is not a Foo object.
23:54 markstos Thus, a loop is created.
23:55 markstos Agreed ? I can create a test case if so. My test case will include a clause for stopping after a couple of loops. :)

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