Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-09-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:09 TreyHarris markstos: sent C<when> mail to p6-l.  the sub<->meth xversion mail will come later
00:10 markstos Awesome.
00:10 markstos I'll be composing my CATCH clarification msg shortly.
00:11 markstos First, I had to finish this post to PerlMonks that I was encouraged to make, encouraging module users to step up and help with maintenance:
00:11 markstos http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=571832
00:11 lambdabot Title: Take Back Your Modules!
00:18 markstos TreyHarris: I just sent a refinement response to your p6l post. Thanks for starting that thread! TreyHarris++
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00:45 markstos I just sent my CATCH message to p6l.
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01:09 markstos I contributed my first "Diagnostics explanation:
01:09 markstos http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?pugs_diagnostics
01:10 markstos If you are currently stuck on "can't modify constant item", it might help you.
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01:16 rodi markstos: on that topic:
01:17 rodi ?eval sub foo ($a is rw) { $a ~~ s/b/c/; } foo('b');
01:17 evalbot_r13106 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "b"
01:17 rodi I think this is as-yet unimplimented, non?
01:18 rodi or am I putting it in the wrong place?
01:18 markstos What's unimplemented? I think that's correct.  You can't make 'b' into a rw variable.
01:19 markstos "is rw" and "is copy" already seem to work as they should.
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01:19 Limbic_Region IOW - a constant string can't magiccally become mutable
01:19 rodi righto.
01:19 rodi ?eval sub foo ($a is copy) { $a ~~ s/b/c/; } foo('b');
01:19 evalbot_r13106 Bool::True
01:20 Limbic_Region if you had passed in a scalar var - it would have worked
01:20 rodi ?eval sub foo ($a is copy) { $a ~~ s/b/c/; } say foo('b');
01:20 evalbot_r13106 OUTPUT[1 ] Bool::True
01:20 rodi ?eval sub foo ($a is copy) { $a ~~ s/b/c/; } my $b="b"; say foo($b);
01:20 evalbot_r13106 OUTPUT[1 ] Bool::True
01:20 Limbic_Region change copy to rw
01:20 Limbic_Region still will work
01:20 rodi ?eval sub foo ($a is rw) { $a ~~ s/b/c/; } my $b="b"; say foo($b);
01:20 evalbot_r13106 OUTPUT[1 ] Bool::True
01:20 markstos Limbric_Region++
01:21 rodi markstos++
01:21 Limbic_Region (pugs hackers)++
01:22 * Limbic_Region is still compiling ghc from src
01:22 Limbic_Region 1hr 42min so far
01:22 markstos ouch.
01:23 Limbic_Region hopefully subsequent builds will be much faster
01:23 markstos "make hope"
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01:38 Limbic_Region finished - less than 2 hours
01:39 TreyHarris yee-hah, speed demon :-)
01:40 Limbic_Region once I compile Pugs with it and verify it works correctly, I will update it to verify subsequent compiles are faster
01:40 Limbic_Region and then I will upload a bin dist for Win32
01:42 rodi Actually, it's impossible that it went that fast, because `units` doesn't understand lighthours.  So there.
01:42 * rodi hopes for at least a courtesy chuckle...
01:43 avarab is now known as avar
01:44 * rodi should have spent a little less time on TreyHarris's 500-mile FAQ...
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01:53 markstos Here's something tricky:
01:53 markstos ?eval my $str = 'a'; $str ~~ s:P5:g/(a)/{'pre'~$1~'post'}/; say $str;
01:53 evalbot_r13106 OUTPUT[prepost ] Bool::True
01:54 markstos What's trick is that while the "P5" is present, I think the {} on the right implie P6ness, which among other things, means unlike Perl 5, the captured values start at $0, not $1, hence the missing 'a' in the result.
01:58 markstos I'm adding a mention to Differences.pod, since this certainly confuse people who think just adding :P5 is about all they need to do.
02:04 svnbot6 r13107 | markstos++ | Add a s/// example to Differences.pod
02:07 svnbot6 r13108 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - fixed & recompiled Grammar::Rule
02:08 Limbic_Region attempting to compile pugs from source compiled GHC
02:10 svnbot6 r13109 | markstos++ | CGI.pm: escapeHTML and unescapeHTML were broken in basic ways and are now working better.
02:10 svnbot6 r13109 | markstos++ | two new passing tests were added for them.
02:14 Limbic_Region particle - ping
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02:20 statico Automatic karma with CVS commit?
02:21 markstos Subversion. But what's karma good for anyway? Can I cash it in for a stuffed animal later?
02:22 rodi err... you can run over a dogma with a karma...
02:23 statico Did I say CVS? Yikes!
02:23 markstos It might be more useful in reverse: Given enough karma, you get subversion access. :)
02:23 statico What if the commit introduces a bug?
02:23 * statico trolls, harbors doubt
02:24 markstos It least you didn't say CSV, which I would have done. :)
02:24 markstos statico: then rollback or commit a bug fix.
02:24 rodi or hit the person with your karmic bat.
02:25 markstos or spray the subversion server with pesticides
02:25 rodi About 90% of my commits introduce at least one bug,
02:25 rodi since they are usually failing tests.  Though I did, admittedly, fix the sprintf one today :-D
02:25 * rodi preens...
02:27 rodi s/are/consist of/
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02:29 audreyt wow, I'm going to be late at $work.
02:30 * audreyt spent 30+ minutes rofl'ing and generally disabled by TreyHarris's 500mi story
02:34 markstos A more mundane pugs blog post today: http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2006/09/cgiapp_to_perl__4.html
02:36 rodi well, as one ore more of my babies are likely to wake me in four or five hours, I'm going to go to bed now.  Until next time, fare thee well, my e-buddies.
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02:37 audreyt sleep well, rodi
02:39 clkao audreyt: yo. jifty. need a way to have dynamic arguments based on the current state of action. defer doesn't get the action itself.
02:40 * clkao . o O ( CALLER::$?SELF )
02:44 audreyt do what we do in dispatcher?
02:44 audreyt i.e. have a package global that stands for the current action.
02:45 audreyt seems to me cleaner (far cleaner) than walking the call stack and pull $_[0] out.
02:45 clkao ah. cunning. where are we doing that?
02:46 audreyt local our $Action = ...
02:46 audreyt grep for $Dispatcher in Dispatcher.pm
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02:54 Limbic_Region particle ping
02:55 Limbic_Region pugs built successfully btw
02:55 Limbic_Region oh, audreyt - you're about
02:55 Limbic_Region great news
02:55 Limbic_Region I am compiling ghc from source on Win32
02:56 Limbic_Region hrm - can't tell if that late for $work comment meant she was in transit or what
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03:07 Limbic_Region particle - if you backlog, http://feather.perl6.nl/~limbic/
03:08 Limbic_Region audreyt ping http://feather.perl6.nl/~limbic/ # see above for explanation
03:08 Limbic_Region ok, time for bed
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03:15 MacVince Quick question.  I just saw a post on the perl6 planet blog about CGI.pm.  The guys said that Perl 5's $1 becomes $0 in Perl 6.  So what's $0 in Perl 6?
03:15 MacVince Meaning, how to I get the name of the program
03:27 dolmans MacVince: $*PROGRAM_NAME
03:28 MacVince Cool
03:30 dolmans MacVince: do you use Pugs? in t/magicals there are some magicals variable examples.
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05:42 nothingmuch 9morning
05:48 gaal 8:60morning
05:48 gaal (I see your typo and raise you a leap minute!)
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06:08 nothingmuch gaal: ?
06:08 nothingmuch oh
06:09 nothingmuch me doesn't parse well at these hours
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06:10 gaal if I ever end up writing a parser engine, I think I'll call it caffeine, since it's my experience that parsing is often imeded by the lack thereof
06:11 gaal *impeded
06:12 gaal typing, however... I don't know of a substance that improves it.
06:17 mugwump how about ibogaine?  it's a strange substance used by shamans in parts of africa to cleanse the brain during rites of passage ceremonies
06:17 gaal that sounds dangerously like iocaine
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06:31 svnbot6 r13110 | malon++ | smokeserv-client.pl -
06:31 svnbot6 r13110 | malon++ |  * Fail if .yml is not provided
06:31 svnbot6 r13110 | malon++ |  * Check that the configurations used for the .yml and .html correspond
06:31 svnbot6 r13110 | malon++ |  * Accept .yml and .html arguments in either order
06:31 svnbot6 r13110 | malon++ | run-smoke.pl - use a .yml name like the .html, not constantly tests.yml
06:31 svnbot6 r13110 | malon++ | Makefile.PL - make upload-smoke depend on smoke.yml instead of tests.yml
06:32 christopher If you have problems submitting your .yml smoke, let me know (by IRC or email).
06:33 christopher I was surprised that the r13105 win32 smoke didn't send .yml properly.
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07:01 gaal audreyt: ping
07:02 gaal need some ghc typing help
07:03 NamelessOne joined perl6
07:08 gaal I *think* this is a ghc bug, in fact :(
07:09 araujo hi
07:09 gaal ho
07:09 araujo gaal, which one?
07:09 gaal which bug? which ghc?
07:10 gaal ghc is having problems unifying types of an implicit parameter and a typeclass-constarined alias
07:10 gaal *constrained
07:10 gaal ghc-6.5.20060818
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07:12 araujo i _highly_ recommend you to update gaal
07:13 gaal it's not that old... but yeah, good idea
07:14 araujo gaal, they have recently fixed some bugs
07:15 * araujo installed yesterday snapshot and now will update again
07:15 gaal hmm, okay, but if indeed this is one of them then this feature won't compile on 6.4.x :(
07:18 araujo well, they expect to release new version soon afaik
07:18 gaal yeah.
07:19 gaal I just hope it'll come with good bindists for all platforms, so that we can update our dependency immediately.
07:20 gaal (I already have another change in a branch waiting on the move...)
07:35 gaal well, that didn't work. scping patch...
07:37 gaal audreyt: could you give http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/tmp/priggy.0.patch a gander?
07:38 gaal the problem occurs in Prim, binding the new implicit parameteric pretty-printer.
07:42 gaal (background w/motivation: .perl should not ultimately show things like 'VPure (NInt 42)', but rather just '42'. But for development we really want some prim to dump the guts with priggy attention to detail.)
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07:53 rindolf Hi all.
07:57 buu joined perl6
08:00 mugwump anyone got an opbot I can use?
08:13 nothingmuch mugwump: BingOS on irc.perl.org runs flexo/bender
08:14 nothingmuch maybe you could ask him for the code
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08:37 rindolf Hi nothingmuch
08:37 nothingmuch hi ho
08:41 rindolf nothingmuch: what's up?
08:42 nothingmuch meta models
08:44 buu joined perl6
08:49 rindolf nothingmuch: meta models of what?
08:49 nothingmuch of meta models
08:49 nothingmuch meta meta models ;-)
08:49 nothingmuch of perl 6 / moose object space, actually
08:50 rindolf nothingmuch: I see.
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08:51 rindolf nothingmuch: I'm working on an XSLT transformation.
08:52 rindolf nothingmuch: I think I finally grokked XSLT, after I read the W3Schools and Zvon tutorials.
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11:44 Alias_ nice paradigm thingy
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12:03 rindolf Hi Alias_
12:03 ruz joined perl6
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12:04 Alias_ hiya
12:04 Alias_ How goes the Error.pm saga
12:05 rindolf Alias_: well LeoNerd took over most of the development.
12:05 Alias_ (It's pass'ing on Strawberry now btw)
12:05 Alias_ ah
12:06 rindolf Alias_: GBARR (IIRC) made me the primary maintainer.
12:06 rindolf Alias_: and LeoNerd a co-maintainer.
12:07 rindolf Alias_: do you still live in .au ?
12:07 Alias_ All that bubbled up to me was some wailing and nashing of teeth after it got broke'd
12:07 Alias_ Yeah, in Sydney
12:07 rindolf Alias_: OK.
12:08 rindolf Alias_: I fixed two bugs yesterday and today: one in TAPx::Parser and one in XML::SemanticDiff.
12:15 weinig|zZz is now known as weinig
12:16 Limbic_Region Juerd ping
12:24 rindolf Alias_: what's up with you? How is the Perl refactoring tool progressing?
12:24 Alias_ I got distracted by making a Win32 Perl distribution
12:24 xinming joined perl6
12:24 Alias_ So I could run it on my laptop
12:24 christopher joined perl6
12:25 Limbic_Region salutations rindolf and Alias_
12:25 Alias_ Now that the main group of important modules are all mostly green on Win32 now (Wx and so on) I'm trying to find the time to keep going on the editor part
12:25 Alias_ But herbert can be hard to work with (shifting decisions)
12:25 Alias_ Xeper -> Kepher -> Kefra etc
12:26 Alias_ But as the Win32 Perl stuff gets stronger and stronger, at least I'm not being worried by the base level stuff giving me problems
12:30 rindolf Hi Limbic_Region
12:30 rindolf Alias_: I've been tutoring someone in Perl using Windows this week.
12:31 rindolf Alias_: I found a way to segfault XML::LibXML.
12:31 rindolf If I specified the ISO-8859-8 encoding for my XML.
12:31 buetow joined perl6
12:32 Alias_ On Windows? Doesn't sound hard
12:32 Alias_ How did you get it installed on Win32?
12:32 Alias_ (that's one of our ones with the external modules issues)
12:33 Alias_ eep, afk now
12:33 Alias_ (talk to you later)
12:34 rindolf Alias_: I installed XML::LibXML by configuring the uwinnipeg ppm repository and then hitting ppm install XML::SAX and ppm install XML::LibXML.
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13:01 agentzh christopher: the only SYN link on the smoker sever seems to have some problems. :(
13:01 crem_ joined perl6
13:01 agentzh the smoke results are very odd.
13:03 christopher agentzh: I think iblech stopped his smoke after 13 tests, so most things say "0. checks, 0 X's."
13:04 agentzh okay
13:04 agentzh is the smoke server using the latest synopses?
13:04 agentzh what is /var/www/iblech/stuff/pugs-smokes/spec?
13:05 christopher I think so.  I'm not sure how often the refresh-synopsis script is being run.
13:05 christopher That's a directory that should be getting updated with the synopses.
13:05 agentzh i think you should not specify the --syn-dir option your self.
13:05 agentzh or i even should not offer that option.
13:05 christopher It uses the same update script found in docs/Perl6/Spec in the pugs tree.
13:06 christopher But I don't think the entire pugs tree is checked out on the Smoke server.
13:06 agentzh christopher: why not use the default setting?
13:06 christopher The important part is that something's auto-updating the specs, wherever they are.
13:06 agentzh or the syn rev number won't be set in the HTMLs
13:07 agentzh christopher: what is updating that? a cron?
13:07 christopher Yeah, the rev number is a problem.  For some reason, version_h.pl doesn't seem to work in isolation.
13:07 agentzh christopher: smartlinks.pl automatically update the synopses it uses everytime it runs (unless you specify the --fast option)
13:07 christopher Yes, it's meant to be updated by refresh-smoked-synopses.pl, running under cron.
13:07 agentzh *updates
13:08 agentzh so you don't have to do that yourself.
13:08 christopher yes, by running the "update" script which we call every time.
13:08 christopher We do it ourselves because refresh-smoked-synopses will update all the smoked synopses at once.  When done in a batch, it's faster to just call the "update" script once.
13:09 agentzh christopher: i don't understand.
13:10 agentzh you're keeping various revisions of synopses on the smoke server?
13:10 christopher agentzh: When --syn-dir isn't in the pugs tree, you need to run "update" yourself, or smartlinks won't do it for you.
13:11 christopher No, we only keep the latest (unsmoked) synopses on the server
13:11 christopher But we produce a different set of smoked synopses for each smoke report.
13:11 agentzh so i suggest you use the synopses *in* the pugs tree. :)
13:11 agentzh that is *strongly* recommended.
13:11 christopher When the synopses get updated, the refresh script reruns smartlinks on all the previous smoke reports, to give them the latest synopsis.
13:12 agentzh christopher: on all the previous smoke reports? is that necessary?
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13:12 christopher agentzh: but I don't think there is a full pugs tree on the smoke server.  Would you prefer we checkout pugs/util?  Will that be enough for all your version-watching scripts to work?
13:13 agentzh christopher: you don't need to check out the whole pugs tree.
13:13 christopher It's necessary if you always want to be looking at the latest synopses.  You obviously can't look at the latest tests on an old smoke, but you should always want to compare them to the latest spec.
13:14 agentzh christopher: okay, i can understand that.
13:15 agentzh checking out pugs/util is not enough at all.
13:15 [particle] hrmm, i'd expect you'd want to look at the spec that's at the same pugs rev as the tests
13:16 agentzh particle: yeah, i'm having exactly the same feeling.
13:16 agentzh christopher: is checking out a whole pugs tree *that* bad?
13:16 agentzh you always have cron, you know.
13:17 christopher particle: I envision people mainly want to see how close they are to the current spec, by whatever means are available to measure it.  Meeting an old spec would be like a report-card sort of satisfaction.
13:17 Limbic_Region [particle] - did you get my /msg
13:17 Limbic_Region woot
13:17 [particle] lr: yes, haven't acted on it yet, as i've only been awake for 17mins
13:17 [particle] :)
13:18 Limbic_Region unfortunately, feather is unlikely a good place to host the binary dists as I have been downloading the 54 MB for over an hour now
13:18 christopher agentzh: You can suggest it to iblech.  I don't really mind.  Do you understand why we need the whole tree, though?  (On my machine, it takes 30 seconds to see what files have been updated, from top level, when doing "svn status," so I can see why some people wouldn't want the whole tree.)
13:18 * Limbic_Region assumes the issue is on feather's end
13:18 [particle] christopher: why not have a local mirror of pugs, and use svk to pull the proper rev?
13:19 [particle] then you have *all* revs locally
13:19 christopher particle: Is this a way svk is faster than svn?  It may be worth installing svk on the smoke server, then.  (It's not under my administration.)
13:20 christopher agentzh: Is the version information you print a synopses revision number, a pugs revision number, or both?
13:20 agentzh christopher: fyi, there's a perl script on feather which updates the whole pugs tree every 5 min or so. :)
13:20 [particle] i think having a local mirror is faster than net traffic
13:20 agentzh christopher: both.
13:21 agentzh christopher: look at here: http://svn.berlios.de/svnroot/repos/unisimu/Perl/Syn/S02.html
13:21 [particle] agentzh: i've started modifying smartlinks for parrot
13:21 lambdabot Title: S02, http://tinyurl.com/lcojf
13:21 agentzh particle: woooot!
13:21 [particle] imo --syn-dir is important to me
13:21 agentzh particle: why?
13:22 [particle] in fact, i want to make it --syn-path
13:22 [particle] because i have two sets of specs to check
13:22 [particle] PDD* and S*
13:22 agentzh ah, gotcha. :)
13:22 [particle] S* are not (currently) checked into parrot repo
13:22 christopher agentzh: I think the current smartlinks assumes that the revision of the pugs tree in which it lives, is the revision of pugs that should be printed.  We wouldn't want to do that on the smoke server, because those revision numbers would keep updating, and the smoked pugs revision should be frozen.
13:23 [particle] christopher++ # if that's the case, it needs fixing
13:23 agentzh christopher: then we need a better way to detect rev number.
13:23 christopher agentzh: so I think smartlinks.pl should read its pugs revision from the .yml, if present, not from its ambient pugs tree.
13:23 [particle] agentzh: it should be in the smoke report
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13:24 agentzh right!
13:24 agentzh when .yml is provided, get pugs rev number from there.
13:24 [particle] Limbic_Region: 6kps -- expected 2:21:00 remaining :(
13:25 agentzh christopher: okay, i'll add that to smartlinks.pl tonight.
13:26 agentzh christopher: but how about the rev number of synopses?
13:26 christopher agentzh++
13:26 christopher Ah, you're getting the synopses by http (and so are we)
13:26 agentzh christopher: i still think we should checkout at least pugs/docs/Perl6/Syn
13:27 christopher If we did a real svn checkout of the synopses we could have the synopsis revision number.
13:27 agentzh christopher: could you check out pugs/docs/Perl6/Syn?
13:27 Limbic_Region I am getting 9
13:28 Limbic_Region tonight, I will put it on my own website
13:28 christopher agentzh: are you getting synopses by http just because you worry people who get the pugs Release versions may not have svn installed on their machines?
13:28 Limbic_Region and if that still is no good - I will try perlmonk.org
13:28 agentzh christopher: aye.
13:28 Limbic_Region unless you have somewhere you would want me to upload it directly?
13:28 agentzh christopher: that's something about "laziness".
13:28 agentzh i just want to resue the pugs mechanism as much as possible.
13:29 agentzh yes, http is slower.
13:30 agentzh but that may not be a problem.
13:30 christopher agentzh: Can the .svn subdirectory (with metadata) of some place that does svn checkouts, be accessed by http?
13:30 christopher We just need to download our synopses from somewhere that also makes the corresponding revision number easily readable.
13:31 agentzh christopher: from feather? i dunno.
13:32 rindolf Alias_: ping
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13:32 christopher agentzh: Yes, feather would be natural, if it's auto-downloading the synopses anyway.
13:32 agentzh christopher: it's updating synopses every 1 hour.
13:33 agentzh ...err, by cron.
13:33 [particle] Limbic_Region: i don't, and i don't mind the wait. hopefully i won't need to get every daily snapshot of ghc to build pugs :)
13:33 Limbic_Region [particle] - oh, you definately won't
13:34 christopher agentzh: If there were http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/.svn, then you could just read the .svn/entries file the same way pugs does, and figure out what revision it was at.
13:34 Limbic_Region [particle] - you ever used Parallel::ForkManger
13:34 [particle] Limbic_Region: yes, about 6 years ago i used it a lot :)
13:34 agentzh christopher: please please don't use svn to check out synopses...that would make my life particularly harder... :)
13:35 agentzh christopher: i have a suggestion.
13:35 christopher agentzh: No, I'm not suggesting that on the client-side.  I'm only suggesting that _feather_ uses svn to check out synopses, instead of using wget.
13:35 Limbic_Region [particle] - I ask because I am updating util/yaml_harness.pl to use Parallel::ForkManager if available (so Win32 can do smoke tests in parallel) and only fall back to the homegrown version in the event it isn't present
13:36 Limbic_Region I was wondering if you were interested in helping
13:36 agentzh christopher: why not using LWP?
13:36 christopher Then the client gets svn synopses from feather (instead of from the perl repository directly) and gets their associated revision number.
13:36 [particle] i think i can help with that
13:37 Limbic_Region fwiw, P::FM isn't foreign to me - I am just more likely to be motivated if I have someone suggesting ideas and helping
13:37 Limbic_Region I'm terribly lazy otherwise
13:37 [particle] i have the 0819 ghc build now, but haven't built pugs with it yet
13:37 [particle] i'll do that now  (no sense waiting for 0906)
13:37 [particle] do you have work-in-progress checked in?
13:37 Limbic_Region no, but I can nopaste it
13:37 [particle] thanks to juerd++ we can use *obby on feather
13:38 [particle] and edit the file together
13:38 agentzh christopher: i don't think the client should get svn synopses from feather. feather updates syn every 1 hour, which is not very frequent.
13:39 [particle] agentzh: do you really think the synopses often change more than once per hour?
13:39 christopher agentzh: The smoke server won't update synopses more than once an hour, probably.
13:39 christopher agentzh: How is the synopsis revision computed currently by smartlinks.pl?
13:39 agentzh particle: i think the user always wants the latest, even psychologically.
13:40 Limbic_Region [particle] - what is the gobby URL
13:40 agentzh christopher: smartlinks.pl gets the syn rev number by invoking util/version_h.pl
13:40 [particle] hrmm, i wonder if an rss feed could be set up so folks can watch for syn updates and act on changes
13:40 [particle] lr: just know sobby debian pkg was installed last night
13:40 agentzh christopher: oh, sorry...
13:40 Limbic_Region and btw - I am not just shoe-horning in P::FM, I am pretty much re-writing it
13:40 christopher agentzh: which does...? (I understand the pugs svn magic but not the synopsis magic)
13:41 [particle] i haven't logged into feather in a while
13:41 [particle] oh, rewriting p::fm! this should be... fun :)
13:41 Limbic_Region ok - no worries, I will nopaste for now and we will bug Juerd when he shows up
13:41 Limbic_Region no, not p::fm - yaml_harness
13:41 [particle] ah
13:41 Limbic_Region lines like @ARGV = sort map glob, "t/*/*.t", "t/*/*/*.t", "ext/*/t/*.t" if ! @ARGV; # bother me
13:41 agentzh christopher: sorry, by reading docs/Perl6/Spec/.spec-revision
13:42 agentzh that file is generated by the "update" script.
13:42 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "[particle] - here is my work in progress on util/yaml_harness.pl" (293 lines, 8.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19541
13:42 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
13:43 * [particle] builds pugs with ghc-6.5.20060819 and AS perl-5.8.8b817
13:43 christopher agentzh: Good, it looks like it comes in the http response.  So I think pugs tree checkout is unnecessary.
13:43 agentzh christopher: could you check out docs/Perl6/Spec? that is required.
13:43 Limbic_Region [particle] - my mental hurdle at the moment is figuring out how to modularize P::FM or the homegrown solution as plug-ins so either will work
13:44 christopher agentzh: by what?  I think only that "update" script is required.
13:44 Limbic_Region I was hoping to overcome that hurdle today but I had baby duty last night - no sleep
13:44 NamelessOne joined perl6
13:44 rodi Limbic_Region: me too!!
13:44 agentzh christopher: the *path* is also required.
13:44 rodi err... not the hurdle, but the baby ;)
13:45 agentzh christopher: so please make sure the update script is in the right path. that is very very important.
13:45 Limbic_Region [particle] - additionally, [audreyt] said it was ok to assume perl 5.8 when rewriting so no need to keep 2 arg open, local *fh instead of lexical, etc
13:45 [particle] Limbic_Region: this is the first time i've seen this code... is the homegrown solution in this file?
13:45 agentzh or we'll need to modify smartlinks.pl.
13:45 [particle] i thought 3 arg open was a 5.6.1 thing
13:45 Limbic_Region [particle] - yes, my $s = __PACKAGE__->new; $s->run; $s->emit;
13:46 [particle] k
13:46 christopher agentzh: I think you should modify smartlinks.pl to look for $syn_rev in a file called $syn_dir/.spec-revision (just move that part outside of your "dir eq dir" block)
13:46 Limbic_Region [particle] - my point is there is no need to preserve compatability < 5.8
13:46 [particle] btw i'd put all subs below exit; but that's just my style
13:46 agentzh christopher: i second that. will do tonight. :)
13:46 [particle] Limbic_Region: easy way, 'use 5.008;'
13:46 agentzh christopher++
13:47 Limbic_Region [particle] - that doesn't actually use those features though ;-)
13:47 [particle] have perl worry about compat, so you don't have to
13:47 agentzh christopher: btw, thank you for your excellent work!
13:47 Limbic_Region [particle] - I was arranging the subs by the order I had "touched" them versus ones I still needed to touch
13:47 Limbic_Region with the intention of re-arranging once they were all given a once over
13:47 [particle] gotcha... work-in-progress
13:47 [particle] those above have been touched?
13:48 avarab is now known as avar
13:48 [particle] or below?
13:48 Limbic_Region yes
13:48 christopher agentzh++ (smartlinks is so cool it inspires lots of add-on hacks)
13:48 Limbic_Region below is untouched
13:48 agentzh christopher: :)
13:48 [particle] christopher++ # i totally agree
13:48 agentzh (bbiab)
13:49 Limbic_Region though fix_config() is unfinished - the empty else {} block and the if above it are where the P::FM and homegrown plugins need to go
13:49 Limbic_Region s/need to go/should go I think/
13:49 [particle] yeah
13:50 [particle] and you only need P::FM if it's win32, right?
13:50 Limbic_Region no
13:50 [particle] or are you planning to replace homegrown with P::FM entirely
13:50 Limbic_Region my thinking is we should use P::FM regardless of platform if it is available
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13:50 [particle] ok
13:50 Limbic_Region if it isn't - then homegrown and Win32 is SOL
13:51 Limbic_Region If the file was self-contained I don't think I would be having the brain cramp but SUPER methods are being called
13:51 [particle] well, if the eval fails, just set $Config{"concurrent"} to zero if platform is Win32
13:51 Limbic_Region and I don't know the test harness stuff all that well
13:51 Limbic_Region no to 1
13:51 Limbic_Region concurrent isn't boolean
13:51 [particle] oh
13:51 Limbic_Region it is the number of tests to run concurrently
13:51 [particle] :)
13:52 [particle] that's not yet obvious
13:52 * Limbic_Region was confused on that matter too until I started digging into the homegrown code
13:52 [particle] the usage says it, i just didn't read it
13:52 [particle] btw typo in usage
13:52 [particle] Paralle::...
13:54 kanru joined perl6
13:54 Limbic_Region maybe I am just being overly idealistic with converting to plug-ins.  It is relatively simple to just complete two completely different branches and have code duplication
13:56 weinig joined perl6
13:56 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
13:57 Limbic_Region [particle] oh, I also wanted to use a proper temp file module if available too as the current homegrown solution doesn't always clean up all the files
13:57 Limbic_Region I think it is an issue of no sig handlers but I can't be sure
13:57 agentzh christopher: please don't forget to set the --fast option while invoking smartlinks.pl on the smoke server in case that you invoke the "update" script yourself.
13:58 [particle] yeah, see that
13:58 christopher agentzh: will do!
13:58 [particle] (temp file) *yuck*
13:58 agentzh christopher++
13:59 Limbic_Region and come to think of it - since < 5.8 compatability is being dropped - the shuffle routine can go away completely and be replaced with use List::Util 'shuffle'; since it has been core since 5.7
13:59 * Limbic_Region just likes messing with the symbol tabls
13:59 Limbic_Region table even
13:59 [particle] :)
13:59 [particle] isn't file::temp core?
13:59 Limbic_Region not sure - check Module::CoreList
13:59 [particle] doing that
14:00 * Limbic_Region too - slowly
14:00 Limbic_Region yes, since 5.6
14:00 Limbic_Region not sure why it wasn't used originally then
14:00 [particle] easy win
14:00 [particle] false laziness
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14:01 Limbic_Region oooh, I am at 95% of my download
14:01 [particle] i'm at 22% and 4.7kps
14:01 Limbic_Region so [particle] - when you get bored of playing with it and/or need to work on something else - just /msg me back the nopaste
14:01 [particle] geez, that's 4800baud
14:02 Limbic_Region or better - email me
14:03 agentzh christopher: please test r13111. (i've tested on my local machine.)
14:03 svnbot6 r13111 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
14:03 svnbot6 r13111 | agentz++ | - checked the existence of the "update" script in user-
14:03 svnbot6 r13111 | agentz++ |   specified syn path instead of mechanically comparing
14:03 svnbot6 r13111 | agentz++ |   the path with pugs/docs/Perl6/Spec, requested by
14:03 svnbot6 r13111 | agentz++ |   christopher++
14:04 agentzh err...step #2, read pugs rev number from .yml (if any)...
14:05 onsen joined perl6
14:05 svnbot6 r13112 | malon++ | smokeserv - call smartlinks.pl with --fast (noticed by agentzh++)
14:10 lisppaste3 joined perl6
14:16 agentzh step #2 is done.
14:17 svnbot6 r13113 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
14:17 svnbot6 r13113 | agentz++ | - reads pugs rev number from the smoke data (.yml) if
14:17 svnbot6 r13113 | agentz++ |   --test-res is specified. this is requested by
14:17 svnbot6 r13113 | agentz++ |   christopher++ and particle++.
14:17 christopher agentzh++ (thanks!)
14:17 prefiks left perl6
14:18 agentzh christopher: to be honest, i'm *so* eager to see the first set of smoked synopses on the smoke server. :P
14:19 christopher agentzh: I'd submit one, but "make smoke" stalls for me.
14:19 agentzh hehe.
14:19 agentzh i've never run smoke on my machine. :)
14:19 christopher On t/examples/all_parse.t, it hangs for hours.  If I interrupt, I get no smoke at all.
14:20 agentzh ...just in fear of hanging.
14:20 agentzh *nod*
14:20 christopher And if I run "pugs t/examples/all_prase.t," I get "Illegal instruction."
14:21 christopher Should yaml_harness.pl time out after a fixed amount of time on any test?
14:22 agentzh no clue...i'm not familiar with the smoke facility.
14:22 amnesiac joined perl6
14:22 christopher I'd say "yes," but all_parse.t is a special test that runs many examples, so maybe its timeout threshold should be bigger.
14:22 agentzh i hope it does.
14:22 christopher AFAICS it doesn't time out at all.
14:23 christopher And this is misleading, when the smoke reports can't even be sent in the first place to report the failure.
14:23 [particle] perhaps ipc::run could be helpful
14:23 agentzh if there's timed out mechanism, we can even run autosmoke on feather.
14:24 rindolf left perl6
14:24 agentzh i have no idea how audreyt works around hanging while smoking.
14:25 christopher particle: Is that more portable than "wait", "alarm", and friends?
14:25 [particle] probably not
14:25 [particle] but it offers a lot
14:26 [particle] it is perhaps overkill
14:26 christopher I'm not familiar with it.
14:26 agentzh IRC::Run is not very friendly on Win32.
14:26 [particle] think of it as IPC::Open3 that works
14:26 [particle] agentzh: i use it in production
14:26 agentzh for windows, IPC::Run3 is better, though not very featureful.
14:27 [particle] it's not working on win98, but i have no problems in win2003
14:27 agentzh particle: i once used IPC::Run to rewrite the gnu make test suite (on win2000), but it suffered a lot.
14:27 kane-xs ipc:: on win32 is painful
14:27 kane-xs basically taht which works on every other OS fails on win32
14:28 agentzh kane-xs: IPC::Run3 is a notable exception. :)
14:28 kane-xs it lacks a lot of features
14:28 kane-xs that's a good way to make things work more
14:28 agentzh kane-xs: yes.
14:29 agentzh windows--
14:30 [particle] (perl threads)--
14:30 agentzh heh
14:32 frederico joined perl6
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14:51 svnbot6 r13114 | agentz++ | [t/closure_traits/in_loop.t]
14:51 svnbot6 r13114 | agentz++ | - updated the tests to reflect recent syn changes.
14:51 svnbot6 r13114 | agentz++ | Status:
14:51 svnbot6 r13114 | agentz++ | all tests are failing.
14:51 svnbot6 r13115 | audreyt++ | * Remove the now-obsolete support for precompiled-in-haskell
14:51 svnbot6 r13115 | audreyt++ |   prelude, since it's redundant with YAML-based prelude support,
14:51 svnbot6 r13115 | audreyt++ |   and (with GHC 6.6) the speed difference is indistinguishable.
14:51 agentzh when should LAST {} be triggered? will return or leave bapasses LAST {}? what about the case when there's no explicit "last"?
14:51 agentzh *bypass
14:52 dakkar joined perl6
14:54 audreyt no explicit last should trigger LAST all the same
14:54 agentzh auderyt, TimToady: what are the exact running circumstances for LAST {}? only if there's a "last" or the end of the loop is reached normally? just like NEXT {}?
14:55 agentzh audreyt: will return/leave/goto bypass LAST {}?
14:56 audreyt I think all three will
14:57 agentzh oh, S04 is still quite hand-waving. :/
14:57 audreyt indeed.
14:57 agentzh maybe it's time for me to start another p6l thread. :)
14:58 audreyt maybe it's time to draw some pictures :)
14:58 audreyt but p6l thread is a good idea
14:58 agentzh okay :)
14:59 audreyt :)
15:01 * agentzh often gets blocked by the handwaving synopses while writing tests for pugs.
15:04 audreyt you need nonblocking IO
15:05 audreyt i.e. write the test the way you think it ought to work
15:05 audreyt and then ask #perl6 and p6l :)
15:08 agentzh audreyt: good idea. :D
15:10 audreyt iblech used to do that all the time :) it's a very good approach
15:10 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
15:11 agentzh iblech++
15:12 agentzh i can imagine the painful early days of pugs... :)
15:12 audreyt it's actually a lot of fun :)
15:12 audreyt significantly more frustration than fun at the beginning, though
15:12 audreyt it's getting much better :)
15:13 agentzh nod nod
15:13 * audreyt looks at gaal's priggy.0.patch
15:13 Juerd Limbic_Region: Pong
15:13 agentzh so i was lurking from pugs day #1 to this july.
15:14 Juerd Limbic_Region: feather should be good for binary dists. If it's slow, please mail me your IP so I can traceroute.
15:15 agentzh fyi, feather was pretty fast while i was downloading a 2 GB file from gaal's home.
15:16 [particle] juerd: can i msg, or is email better?
15:16 audreyt gaal: I _think_ implicit parameters wants to be monomorphic
15:16 audreyt but I also think it's better to use a ReaderT.
15:16 frederico joined perl6
15:18 [particle] juerd: sent email
15:22 Limbic_Region Juerd - both I and particle are extremely slow
15:24 Limbic_Region behind a nat'd firewall so will take a sec to get my IP
15:25 audreyt gaal: however, if you do want to be polymorphic, the one line fix is:
15:25 audreyt type PrettyPrinter = (forall a. Pretty a => a -> String)
15:26 audreyt the explicit foralls will guard the "a" from escaping toward universal quantification.
15:26 audreyt er, nvm, it needs to be a newtype.
15:30 svnbot6 r13116 | agentz++ | [t/closure_traits/enter_leave.t]
15:30 svnbot6 r13116 | agentz++ | - added this new test file to test ENTER and LEAVE blocks
15:30 svnbot6 r13116 | agentz++ | Status:
15:30 svnbot6 r13116 | agentz++ | all tests are failing now.
15:31 audreyt gaal: I'll commit your .guts patch
15:32 audreyt gaal: as you can see, the fix is simply to invent a newtype to put existential quantified functions into it.
15:33 Limbic_Region Juerd - email sent
15:33 svnbot6 r13117 | audreyt++ | * Commit the .guts patch from gaal++ to ease debugging.
15:33 svnbot6 r13117 | audreyt++ |   Not meant to be tested or made into public interface!
15:34 Juerd OrgName:    Computer Sciences Corporation
15:34 Juerd Sound familiar?
15:34 Limbic_Region Juerd - my IP you mean?  I can't really discuss it
15:34 Limbic_Region but I verified it 3 different ways so I am sure that is it
15:35 Juerd Nah, this is jerry's last hop.
15:35 Juerd Limbic_Region: Is leeching from other dutch sites fast?
15:35 Juerd For example speedtest.zylon.net/100mb.bin
15:35 Juerd Or proserve.nl/100mb.bin
15:36 Juerd Both traceroutes end in too-firewalled-to-be-useful networks
15:36 Juerd But until reaching those networks, speeds are okay.
15:36 spinclad joined perl6
15:36 Limbic_Region let me check
15:36 NamelessOne left perl6
15:37 Revision17 joined perl6
15:37 Juerd I can leech at 80 Mb/s from feather, from another datacentre.
15:38 Limbic_Region Juerd - it is slow but not nearly as slow as feather - probably around 20kbs
15:38 Limbic_Region though it is steadily climbing
15:39 Limbic_Region the 8kbs for feather was average over the entire 54mb I downloaded
15:39 Limbic_Region having downloaded 4mb or so from zylon.net - I am at around 30kbs
15:41 Juerd Limbic_Region: Sorry, it is a local thing for you then.
15:41 svnbot6 r13118 | agentz++ | [t/closure_traits/enter_leave.t]
15:41 svnbot6 r13118 | agentz++ | - added many more tests for explicit return and leave.
15:41 * Limbic_Region smiles as he is about to build Pugs from ghc 6.6 rc (2006-09-06 built directly from source)
15:41 Juerd Perhaps you're both indirectly connected to the same backend.
15:41 Limbic_Region well, that must be most of the US then
15:42 audreyt ?eval vv 1
15:42 evalbot_r13106 is now known as evalbot_r13117
15:42 evalbot_r13117 CCall "perl" CaptMeth {c_invocant = VPure (IFinite 1), c_feeds = [MkFeed {f_positionals = [], f_nameds = {}}]}
15:42 * Limbic_Region heads out for lunch but thanks Juerd for investigating first
15:44 nothingmuch mooooooooo
15:44 * nothingmuch takes a nap
15:44 nothingmuch audreyt: want to see an AG runtime with no prettiness?
15:44 nothingmuch i'd like comments if you have the cylces, but very low prio
15:47 rodi In reading S06, I came across the syntax `proto sub foo {...}`, which appears not to be valid in pugs... in t/blocks/multi_sub.t, there is alternative syntax: `proto mmd`, which works- is one of these now invalid?  Should I add a test for the former?
15:48 rodi (mmd being the sub name in the latter)
15:48 audreyt nothingmuch: tomorrow definitely. mail me some urls and/or hivemind me?
15:48 nothingmuch naaah
15:48 nothingmuch it'll be something/somewhere else by then
15:49 agentzh audreyt: could you fix the mysterious parsefail in t/closure_traits/keep_undo.t for me? it's very annoying.
15:50 agentzh it's related to UNDO, i guess.
15:51 audreyt rodi: please grep for a test
15:51 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "Win32 build failure" (11 lines, 461B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19543
15:51 audreyt and if not there then write one
15:52 rodi audreyt: already did, which is how I found t/blocks/multi_sub.t
15:52 rodi cool.
15:53 integral audreyt: theory's asking for someone to remove his ban in here
15:54 agentzh audreyt: please look at the build failure paste.
15:54 agentzh not sure if i should run realclean.
15:55 ChanServ sets mode: -b justatheory!n=justathe@dsl093-038-250.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net!##unavailable
15:55 audreyt did so.
15:55 audreyt agentzh: don't; fixed
15:55 agentzh oops! too late...
15:55 agentzh ;-)
15:56 agentzh audreyt: i was caught by another problem while running `perl Makefile.PL':
15:57 svnbot6 r13119 | audreyt++ | * Parse for "proto sub foo {...}" as noticed by rodi++.
15:57 svnbot6 r13120 | audreyt++ | * (minor) Further refine the prelude loading communication via env vars.
15:57 agentzh *** ActivePerl 5.8.7 and below does not support Perl 5 embedding.
15:57 agentzh audreyt: must i upgrade my activeperl?
15:57 rodi LOL
15:58 rodi I haven't even finished my tests, svnbot6!
15:58 audreyt agentzh: it's recommended, yeah
15:58 agentzh okay, that will be a long night then. :)
15:59 hcchien joined perl6
15:59 svnbot6 r13121 | audreyt++ | * Attempt to unbreak 6.4.1.
16:00 justatheory joined perl6
16:00 justatheory Sorry for all the noise from my stupid PowerBook falling asleep and waking all night the other night.
16:00 rodi Am I to infer from L<S06/"Routine modifiers"> that proto is also allowed as a modifier to any(<sub method submethod regex token rule macro>) ?
16:01 audreyt that would be a correct inference.
16:01 rodi coolio.
16:02 agentzh rodi: or even L<S06/Routine modifiers/Prototypes> :)
16:02 rodi :)
16:03 agentzh i didn't upgrade to 5.8.8 when it was released due to the Module::Install problem.
16:04 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
16:04 agentzh i think now it's vanished already.
16:04 [particle] agentzh: i just upgraded to AS 5.8.8b817
16:04 [particle] is there something i should look for?
16:04 agentzh particle: good to learn. :)
16:05 [particle] btw my pugs build failed :(
16:05 agentzh particle: some old modules using old Module::Install couldn't compile at ActivePerl 5.8.8.
16:06 [particle] ah
16:06 [particle] well, if there's a specific one, i can try it
16:06 pasteling "[particle]" at 144.81.84.199 pasted "failing win32 pugs build" (213 lines, 10.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19544
16:06 [particle] looks like pugs is getting confused with gcc / msvc
16:06 agentzh particle: i didn't remember. sorry.
16:07 [particle] np
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16:08 bernhard joined perl6
16:08 [particle] er, wait.
16:08 agentzh particle: it's not failing.
16:08 [particle] i think  pugs built, those are not errors, just warnings
16:08 [particle] duh
16:08 agentzh lol
16:08 [particle] how long for make test?
16:09 agentzh 8 min for audreyt
16:09 [particle] k. started at :08, i'll check it in a few mins
16:10 * agentzh thinks particle has a shinny configuration for pugs...activeperl 5.8.8, ghc 6.5...
16:11 [particle] yep!
16:11 agentzh *shining
16:11 agentzh :)
16:11 [particle] of course, i need to install half of cpan now for my other progs
16:12 justatheory Ooh, audreyt, you're here!
16:12 svnbot6 r13122 | rodi++ | Sanity checks for use of proto modifier.
16:12 Psyche^ joined perl6
16:12 agentzh particle: that's the sad part. :)
16:13 [particle] why is 'nmake test' after 'nmake fast' building pugs ?
16:13 svnbot6 r13123 | agentz++ | [t/closure_traits/keep_undo.t]
16:13 svnbot6 r13123 | agentz++ | - more tests for multiple KEEP/UNDO blocks
16:13 agentzh particle: you mean the judy compilation?
16:14 [particle] i'm not sure
16:14 audreyt [particle]: it always relinks pugs
16:14 audreyt which should be fast
16:14 [particle] this is not fast, 6min so far
16:15 agentzh i'm planning to offer a Makefile for judy, which can save much time.
16:15 pasteling "[particle]" at 144.81.84.199 pasted "what does this mean?" (444 lines, 23.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19545
16:16 agentzh oh, it "nmake" normally
16:16 agentzh maybe the "test" target should depend on "fast"?
16:16 agentzh the default target is very time consuming.
16:17 dada joined perl6
16:17 audreyt once we depend on 6.6, yes, sure :)
16:17 dada hello world
16:17 agentzh hello dada
16:17 [particle] so, i can't test an unoptimized pugs? or just need to run prove instead of 'make test'
16:18 dada quick question: is "has $.attr = 100;" supported yet? (that is, assigning a default value to an attribute)
16:18 * agentzh just can't remember the last time he ran 'nmake test'.
16:18 dakkar dada: try and see what happens? ;-)
16:18 dada another quick question: it seems that all attributes are rw by default, and they shouldn't. am I right?
16:18 dada dakkar: unexpected "=" happens :-)
16:18 audreyt dada: it is not; workaround is to have a submethod BUILD ($.attr = 100)
16:19 audreyt dada: you are correct; the object model is currently nonexisting; a new one will be swapped in right after reelase.
16:19 dada I see
16:19 dada maybe throwing in a test or two for such things would help, however
16:19 audreyt currently the object model is same as perl5's, basically
16:19 audreyt tagged hash and such
16:19 audreyt it will help, but I think those two are tested under t/oo/. if not, please commit
16:20 audreyt (do you have a commit bit?)
16:20 dada the tests mentioned in the synopsis don't cover this
16:20 dada I had it, I don't know if it's expired
16:20 audreyt then it's missing smartlinks
16:20 audreyt commit bits, once accepted, does not expire
16:20 agentzh dada: we don't have sufficient smartlinks. ;-)
16:20 justatheory audreyt: Did you see my post about evil operator overloading on p5p?
16:20 audreyt please by all means populate t/oo/ with smartlinks
16:20 dada ok, I will hunt down the tests then :-)
16:20 audreyt very important for 6.28.x
16:21 * agentzh asks audreyt when the next release will be.
16:22 agentzh pugs release == test suite triage
16:24 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
16:24 audreyt agentzh: if it were not the macbook crash, it should be now
16:25 [particle] $ sobby
16:25 [particle] Address family not supported
16:25 agentzh ohhhhhh
16:25 audreyt with the crash, I'll releng over the next few days
16:25 agentzh macbook-- macbook-- macbook--
16:25 audreyt and aim for a release next weekend
16:25 [particle] that was on feather... anyone have any idea what that message means?
16:25 audreyt no, audreyt-- for dropping her macbook and breaking it.
16:25 penk left perl6
16:25 [particle] (macbook in shower)--
16:25 agentzh LOL
16:26 audreyt that too.
16:27 agentzh audreyt: so on Windows, pugs now requires ActivePerl 5.8.8?
16:27 agentzh i think it's a bit unacceptable for most win32 users.
16:27 agentzh 5.8.8 is the latest version, you know. ;-)
16:28 audreyt agentzh: no, it requires 5.8.8 for perl5 embedding
16:28 audreyt which is enabled by default
16:29 audreyt but yeah, it's sad. but between that and not emabling perl5 embed
16:29 audreyt I think I want perl5 embed.
16:29 agentzh audreyt: i see. :)
16:29 dada I don't think it's a big problem
16:29 agentzh indeed, perl 5 embedding is very useful.
16:29 Eimi joined perl6
16:29 dada dumb and lazy win32 users are not going to use pugs anyway
16:30 dada and installing ActivePerl 5.8.8 isn't that hard
16:30 agentzh dada: but installing half of the cpan *is*
16:30 audreyt er, you can upgrade activeperl without reinstalling half of cpan
16:30 audreyt 5.8.x is binary compatible
16:30 dada at least if you already have 5.8.something
16:30 agentzh audreyt: details?
16:30 audreyt (except for 5.8.1 which I prefer to conveniently forget)
16:31 dada and if you have 5.6.something, you're really _too_ lazt
16:31 dada lazy
16:31 agentzh by coping over lib/ and site/?
16:31 audreyt agentzh: simply install activeperl on top of an existing installation
16:31 audreyt without uninstalling the old
16:31 audreyt that's all I think
16:31 dada it is
16:31 audreyt copying over site/ would work too.
16:31 agentzh auderyt: oh, thanks!
16:31 audreyt :)
16:34 [particle] what's expected passing rate for pugs tests?
16:34 [particle] i see *a lot* of failures
16:35 audreyt about 500ish failures at this moment I think
16:37 [particle] audreyt: are you running 9m test on osx or win?
16:37 audreyt osx parallel=2
16:38 audreyt if you "make fast" the test is going to take longer.
16:38 [particle] ok. i wonder because i find win tests take much longer, since creating processes on windows is expensive
16:38 [particle] also, because i make fast.
16:38 [particle] i'll have a look in another 20mins then :)
16:41 audreyt justatheory: yes, I did. unfortunately I don't have much to contrib
16:41 audreyt except that | and & looks more attractive than && and || indeed
16:41 audreyt (bbiab)
16:41 justatheory audreyt: Bummer. You're the mistress of the overloading tricks!
16:42 justatheory audreyt: I'm fine with & and |, but now I want to overload =~ and !~.
16:52 audreyt that is trickier; though perl5/re-override* in pugs tree shows how.
16:52 audreyt but at some point you should give up and do it via Module::Compile or Filter::Simple::Cached :)
16:54 agentzh audreyt: while running "nmake", i got "Undefined subroutine &main::UpdateHTML_blib called at -e line 1."
16:55 justatheory audreyt: I don't know those modules; I'll have to take a look. Thanks.
16:55 agentzh audreyt: now i'm at 5.8.8.
16:55 audreyt agentzh: nopaste the whole log?
16:55 audreyt or the parts around it, maybe
16:55 agentzh audreyt: okay
16:56 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted ""nmake" failure" (93 lines, 3.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19546
16:58 fglock_ joined perl6
16:59 agentzh audreyt: fyi, "nmake fast" works fine and i've built pugs already. unfortunately, "nmake install" and "nmake" don't work.
16:59 audreyt nopaste your Makefile?
16:59 agentzh not sure if it's a 5.8.8 on 5.8.7 problem. ;-)
16:59 agentzh audreyt: okay
17:00 agentzh audreyt: it's huge.
17:00 agentzh :)
17:00 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "my Makefile" (1875 lines, 126K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19547
17:05 agentzh audreyt: sorry, i can't hold on any more. 1:02 AM here...i've got an exam the next morning (well, actually *this* morning). :)
17:06 agentzh good night &
17:06 agentzh left perl6
17:09 dada bye people
17:13 [particle] okay, make test finished
17:13 audreyt fixed.
17:13 svnbot6 r13124 | audreyt++ | * defeat htmlifypods as it broke build for agentzh++.
17:13 [particle] 17 tests and 1157 subtests skipped.
17:13 [particle] Failed 107/578 test scripts, 81.49% okay. 388/9095 subtests failed, 95.73% okay.
17:16 audreyt cool
17:16 audreyt how long did it take?
17:18 araujo joined perl6
17:18 TreyHarris audreyt: do you agree with Limbic_Region that my 300+m smokes on darwin-ppc (1.5 GHz G4) indicates something is wrong with my installation?
17:18 TreyHarris audreyt: glad you enjoyed my story, btw :-)
17:18 [particle] took ~60mins
17:19 TreyHarris well, the one last night was "only" 231 minutes....
17:20 TreyHarris is the smokeserver working?
17:20 TreyHarris ah, spoke too soon
17:20 rindolf joined perl6
17:21 rindolf In Moose, how do I set an 'ro' attribute?
17:21 rindolf Assuming I can.
17:24 [particle] rindolf: C<<writer => '_ro'>> and C<sub _ro{die "cannot set read-only attribute"} # wild guess
17:25 audreyt TreyHarris: GHC 6.4 or 6.6?
17:25 audreyt rindolf: if you don't say "is rw" it defaults to ro, no?
17:25 mauke_ joined perl6
17:26 TreyHarris 6.4.  I'm willing to try 6.6 if anyone can give me a roadmap to get it built on darwin-ppc, but on #haskell they said that's still a work-in-progress
17:26 audreyt nod. don't worry about it for now, I guess
17:27 audreyt I don't think anything's wrong with installation
17:27 [particle] rindolf: sorry, i was looking at the Moose::Meta::Attribute docs
17:27 TreyHarris audreyt: ok, thanks :-)
17:27 audreyt GHC is known to be less optimized for ppc than for x86; 6.6 should remedy this  somewhat for pugs
17:27 audreyt but it's nothing to worry about :)
17:28 audreyt ...and now I need to sleep
17:28 audreyt good night and see y'all tomorrow *wave*
17:28 TreyHarris sweet dreams :-)
17:28 [particle] eew, make is really broken on win32
17:28 [particle] but make fast works fine
17:29 audreyt pasteling: even with r13271?
17:29 audreyt and reran Makefile.PL?
17:29 audreyt s/pasteling/[particle]/
17:29 [particle] i'm at 13124
17:29 audreyt I mean 13124 sorry
17:29 [particle] k
17:29 [particle] i don't see a Makefile.pl update there
17:29 [particle] but i reran it
17:30 audreyt and it still fails?
17:30 * TreyHarris was wondering how audreyt expected [particle] to run a revision that probably won't exist until Sunday ;-)
17:30 [particle] yse, pasting
17:30 pasteling "[particle]" at 144.81.84.199 pasted "fail" (174 lines, 6.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19549
17:32 audreyt what's wrong with that?
17:32 [particle] nmake -f Makefile all -nologo
17:32 audreyt it's a finite loop with 45 iterations
17:32 [particle] huh? why?
17:32 audreyt one for each in ext/
17:32 audreyt it's the subdirs target
17:33 [particle] oh, that's entirely unobvious
17:33 [particle] i'll let it iterate
17:33 audreyt I'd say it is. please see if you can somehow make it more obvious
17:33 audreyt either by prompting or by saying don't panick
17:33 audreyt or something like that
17:33 [particle] k
17:33 audreyt but I can't stay up anymore :)
17:33 audreyt *wave*
17:33 [particle] go away! audreyt++
17:40 mauke_ is now known as mauke
17:42 Limbic_Region joined perl6
17:42 elmex joined perl6
17:42 Limbic_Region grrr
17:42 TreyHarris Limbic_Region: audreyt just confirmed that my installation isn't broken, that GHC 6.4 on PPC is really really slow :-)
17:43 TreyHarris what's wrong?
17:43 Limbic_Region my client just went fubar
17:43 TreyHarris ACTION CTCP Limbic_Region TICKLE_CLIENT
17:43 TreyHarris did that help? :-)
17:44 Limbic_Region [particle] - the problem that agentz was referring to with AS and Module::Build is the one I was telling you about regarding MinGW - it should not affect you
17:44 Limbic_Region yes TreyHarris - thanks
17:44 Limbic_Region for those using build 817 (5.8.8) and are using MinGW - either upgrade or ping me for the patch to make Module::Build work again
17:45 * Limbic_Region continues to backlog
17:46 Limbic_Region [particle] - hopefully our project with util/yaml_harness.pl will help improve make test/smoke on Win32 at least
17:47 Limbic_Region 5.8.8 may be the latest version but how long has it been out - it isn't like it is exactly new or anything
17:49 Limbic_Region TreyHarris - you didn't mention your intermitten bus failures to audreyt though when you asked about the speed issues
17:49 * Limbic_Region factored that into his assessment
17:50 Limbic_Region [particle] - make works fine for me on Win32 as I never run make fast (assuming we are talking about nmake here)
17:50 Limbic_Region ok, all finished backlogging
17:50 Limbic_Region [particle] - if you /msg'd me anything I lost it when this clients went toes up
17:56 Eimi joined perl6
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18:13 TreyHarris Limbic_Region: ah, good point.  she was heading to bed so I was trying to make it brief, but you're right
18:14 Limbic_Region in any case, have you tried setting the number of concurrent tests?
18:14 TreyHarris Limbic_Region: I don't have an SMP
18:14 TreyHarris or even a dual-core
18:15 * Limbic_Region shakes his head
18:15 Limbic_Region if your single CPU is not at 100% utilization, running things in parallel is likely to still be faster than in serial
18:15 Limbic_Region despite it being done via time slicing
18:15 TreyHarris oh, no, it's at 100% pegged
18:16 Limbic_Region oh, well then - concurrent tests won't help regardless
18:16 TreyHarris the entire 4 hours
18:16 TreyHarris :-)
18:16 Limbic_Region my machine stays under 10% for the full smoke (30 minutes or less)
18:16 TreyHarris i could speed it up if i shut everything else on my system down.  it is my main machine after all.  but i'm usually not using it much
18:17 TreyHarris ah.  even "my $x = 3; say $x" pugs the CPU for a moment
18:17 TreyHarris er, s/pugs/pegs/
18:17 TreyHarris pugs pegs the CPU :-)
18:17 Limbic_Region so those no op spin cycles while it is waiting to hear back from my program could be used to do work for another program
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20:08 rindolf audreyt: here?
20:10 Limbic_Region she's supposed to be sleeping
20:18 [particle] lr: i'm back!
20:20 svnbot6 r13125 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - implemented $<KEY>
20:23 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
20:28 Limbic_Region [particle] - I just wanted to know if you had done anything on the util/yaml_harness.pl
20:28 Limbic_Region get you to /msg me your email again (client barfed)
20:28 Limbic_Region and ask what your make problem was
20:28 Limbic_Region since I am building fine here without make fast
20:30 svnbot6 r13126 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - ChangeLog update
20:31 [particle] haven't touched it today (production issue)
20:33 Limbic_Region no worries
20:33 [particle] i think i had a rogue ghc.exe process locking a file
20:33 [particle] making again to see if that fixed it
20:33 Limbic_Region I was so enjoying the YAHT that I didn't notice the time
20:34 Limbic_Region it is officially 3 minutes into the weekend for me so I am headed homewards
20:34 Limbic_Region will send test email in a minute - no need to reply
20:36 svnbot6 r13127 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - ChangeLog update
20:36 davidfetter joined perl6
20:49 rodi any other Perl 6 people live/visit in the Washington, DC, USA area?
20:49 rodi err... #perl6 people :)
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22:37 gaal audreyt: thanks for the fix. I'm not sure I understand why this works yet...
22:37 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
22:37 gaal also, how to write the printers for the non-concrete Val variants?
22:38 gaal the two problems are that they are all monadic, and that they are existential.
22:38 gaal PureVal can maybe cheat and runIdentity...
22:39 gaal and the unpacking could maybe case over typeOf but I wonder if there's a more efficient way?
22:40 gaal ...maybe there needs to be another pretty printer in Eval?
22:41 gaal anymoose it's night time for me. bye! &
23:06 Aankhen`` joined perl6
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23:41 markstos I was just reading about Prelude.pm ( http://pugs.kwiki.org/?PreludificationCandidates ) and want to make sure I understand the purpose. I suspect they are primarily: 1. To write some of Perl 6 in Perl 6, and 2. To help support multiple implementations, since anything in Prelude.pm can be used by any implementation. Correct assumptions?
23:41 lambdabot Title: PreludificationCandidates - Pugs - A Perl 6 Implementation, http://tinyurl.com/gaqv8
23:42 clkao yes
23:43 markstos Thanks. I'll update the wiki (.../some wiki/) to clarify this.
23:44 markstos I didn't realize until today that any of core Perl 6 was written in Perl 6, although I'd heard of "Prelude.pm" before, I just assumed it was "different". I know "Prelude" is a term used in the Haskell world, but not so much in Perl culture.
23:44 markstos So I had assumed Prelude==somehowHaskell.
23:44 nothingmuch markstos: the meaning is borrowed
23:45 nothingmuch it's the part that is before every program =)
23:45 nothingmuch good night folks
23:45 Limbic_Region TTFN nothingmuch
23:48 NamelessOne joined perl6
23:57 [particle] markstos: parrot also uses something like this. PGE rules are written in perl 6 regex syntax
23:57 markstos Neat.
23:57 [particle] so the parrot perl6 parser is written as a perl 6 grammar
23:57 TreyHarris one point that I'd appreciate more clarity on: audrey suggested to me that earnest efforts to implement large swaths of S29 should be done in separate, class-based files ("e.g., src/Num.pm" was what she said).  i don't understand how Prelude fits together with such other peices
23:58 TreyHarris would Prelude use the others?  would we have a 'Core.pm' that would use the others, but only Prelude would be used by default?
23:59 markstos TreyHarris: Have you fond this page? It lists candidates for preludification.
23:59 markstos http://pugs.kwiki.org/?PreludificationCandidates
23:59 lambdabot Title: PreludificationCandidates - Pugs - A Perl 6 Implementation, http://tinyurl.com/gaqv8
23:59 TreyHarris i know the overall intention is for base Perl 6 to be much smaller than core Perl 5

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