Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-09-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 rodi gnuvince: that commit bit is the single most insidious bit in the multiverse :-D
00:02 rodi ahh, my lady is home home with Indian food.  TTFN.
00:03 gnuvince So, how does writing tests work?  I pick a section of a synopsis, write tests for that section (or improve those already existing)?
00:05 obra gnuvince: that will certainly work. do you have a pugs checkout yet?
00:05 gnuvince obra: it dates a couple weeks, I'm gonna update it and recompile.
00:05 gnuvince obra: what happens if I write tests for something that doesn't exist yet?
00:05 obra that's ok.
00:06 obra that's one of the best ways to get new features implemented
00:06 obra checking in failing tests for new features energizes some of pugs' developers.
00:06 gnuvince ok
00:06 obra around release time, they may be 'todo'ed, but don't let that stop you
00:07 gnuvince todo means they can fail, but it's not marked as a failure?
00:08 markstos rodi: I enjoyed your journal post!
00:08 obra todo means they may fail, but that's because we know they're not done yet
00:09 markstos gnuvince: since we are preparing for a release, please use :todo<feature> for unimplemented features
00:09 markstos Here's an HTML version of the p6 Test.pm docs:
00:10 markstos http://feather.perl6.nl/~markstos/Test.pm.html
00:10 lambdabot Title: Test - Test support module for perl6, http://tinyurl.com/p2dor
00:10 gnuvince markstos: thanks.
00:11 markstos The structure of t/ roughly follows that of the Synopsis: try keep that pattern.  So, builtins  functions are spec'ed in Perl6/Spec/Functions.pod, aka "S29" and have tests in "builtins/"
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00:12 markstos (I'll avocate that it should be "Functions/" instead of builtins to match exactly, but that's a dicussion for another day).
00:12 markstos test your test: prove6 my_test.t
00:12 markstos (prove6 is in ./util )
00:13 markstos And t/README is a good read, too.
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00:16 gnuvince ok
00:16 svnbot6 r13316 | Darren_Duncan++ | incremented or decremented version numbers of my ext/ modules, brought Pugs' ChangeLog up to date regarding my modules
00:19 obra rodi: ping
00:23 dduncan now starting my first Pugs build since last month ...
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00:24 svnbot6 r13317 | markstos++ | [t/operators/reduce-metaop.t]
00:24 svnbot6 r13317 | markstos++ |    New failing test:
00:24 svnbot6 r13317 | markstos++ |    sub prod ($x,*@xs) { return $x unless @xs; return $x * prod([,] @xs); } print prod(2,3,4);
00:24 svnbot6 r13317 | markstos++ |    Larry Wall and I thought the behavior seemed like a bug.
00:24 svnbot6 r13317 | markstos++ |    I wasn't which language feature has the bug, so I blamed it on [,] and stuck the test here.
00:27 TreyHarris TimToady: In S01 diff just sent out, sentence "Mostly we're just a bunch ants" is missing article. :-)
00:27 TimToady anything else?
00:29 nekokak joined perl6
00:30 obra TimToady++ # Doing the job I'm not ;)
00:31 obra TimToady: the year on the last-mod date is off by one
00:31 obra also: poeple -> people
00:32 clkao obra: would you like a commit bit ?
00:32 obra to the synopses? I don't think that's under pugs control ;)
00:33 TimToady obra++++ but too late. :)
00:34 TimToady gotta run now... &
00:34 obra *wave*
00:34 obra thanks for that update  :)
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00:37 markstos Does Haskell have native reduction operators, like [*] ?
00:37 wolverian fold[lr]
00:37 markstos I know it's easy enough to work around them in Haskell, like: prod (x:xs) = x * prod(xs)   ( == [*] )
00:38 rodi obra: pong
00:38 mauke product = foldr (*) 1
00:38 obra rodi: got your mail. we should chatter some time when I'm back home (after the 24th)
00:38 mauke or maybe foldl' (*) 1
00:38 obra I hadn't actually connected your irc nick to the guy I went to legal seafoods with ;)
00:38 markstos What does the "1" do there ?
00:38 rodi obra: sounds great- no rush on my part.  Enjoying my time off, prolly more than I should ;)
00:39 obra Excellent. I'm jealous
00:39 mauke markstos: it's what the empty list reduces to
00:39 markstos Ah.
00:39 wolverian TimToady, "Another aspect of this is [that?] the Perl 6 compiler will be self-hosting."
00:39 mauke concat == foldr (++) []
00:39 wolverian TimToady, (I'm not sure if it is a bug, but I couldn't parse it at first without the 'that'. maybe it's a bug in english.)
00:43 markstos I was comparing the a little subroutine that does what [*] does in Perl5, Haskell and Perl 6. Perl 5 is pitifully verbose by comparison:
00:43 markstos sub prod { my ($x,@xs) = @_; return defined @xs; return $x * prod(@xs); }
00:44 markstos Perl 6 was an improvement, but Haskell looked the cleanest. :)
00:47 mauke return defined @xs;?!
00:48 mauke also, sub prod { List::Util::reduce { $a * $b } 1, @_ }
00:48 markstos Oh. typo.
00:48 markstos It worked before, but that version is broken.
00:49 markstos Should have been:  return $x unless defined @xs;
00:49 mauke why the hell are you using defined with an array?
00:50 markstos Something tells me you strongly prefer another solution.
00:50 mauke no, I prefer a solution
00:50 mauke defined @array is not useful
00:51 mauke (it's also deprecated)
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00:51 markstos which means the solution you prefer is...
00:51 mauke if you mean return $x unless @xs, that's still broken because it should return 1 for an empty list
00:51 mauke <mauke> sub prod { List::Util::reduce { $a * $b } 1, @_ }
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00:53 markstos The reduce function itself uses the construct: return $x unless @xs >= 1; (basically)
00:54 mauke yeah, but I'm passing an extra argument here
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00:54 markstos I can sense the extra argument in the room.
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01:18 dduncan compile of r13316 on my machine was successful
01:22 svnbot6 r13318 | markstos++ | [t/operators/reduce-metaop.t]
01:22 svnbot6 r13318 | markstos++ |     Two more failing tests, directly from the spec:
01:22 svnbot6 r13318 | markstos++ |     [*]() returns 1
01:22 svnbot6 r13318 | markstos++ |     [+]() returns 0
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07:15 * gaal mooses
07:20 gaal hahaha, today's wordsmith.org word of the day: vamoose
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08:31 SuperL4g yuval: got to re-extract the tree real quick. I logged out by mistake.
08:32 SuperL4g yuval: you pointed out my screenshots already, I take it?
08:33 SuperL4g www.linuxlooney.com/pugs_compile_process.png <-- that's where the process seems to hang
08:33 SuperL4g www.linuxlooney.com/top.png <-- that's self-explanatory
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08:59 SuperL4g yuval: trying again, and I can already see >4 ghc processes spawned
08:59 SuperL4g I'm sorry... make that =4
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09:06 yuval SuperL4g: i have =4, too (and it compiles fine here)
09:07 SuperL4g yuval: do you get past the stage where mine seems to stop?
09:07 yuval SuperL4g: but they are killed/respawned pretty quickly :)
09:07 yuval not yet, SuperL4g, hold on :)
09:09 yuval SuperL4g: oh, oops, i did. went pretty smoothly :)
09:33 ruoso audreyt, once I saw some slides you made about jifty... do you still have them?
09:40 gaal yuval, SuperL4g: does gentoo have any patches to pugs' Makefile.PL?
09:40 gaal SuperL4g: could you try with a checkout from HEAD?
09:41 gaal make sure no ghcs are running before you start.
09:42 SuperL4g yuval: you would know this better than I, since this is my first time doing anything with perl6
09:45 gaal SuperL4g: svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs ; cd pugs ; perl Makefile.PL && make fast
09:45 lambdabot Title: Revision 13324: /
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09:48 yuval gaal: yes, we patch Makefile.PL (i think i reported this problem here a few times in the past?)
09:48 gaal yuval: the patch you sent me via IM doesn't look like it can cause the GHC problem.
09:49 yuval but we just turn my $build_dir = $ENV{PARROT_PATH}; (because the build dir reported by parrot-config is all wrong when compiled in Gentoo)
09:49 yuval gaal: i know :)
09:49 yuval gaal: fwiw, many people managed to emerge pugs using the same ghc/parrot versions, so it's weird...
09:50 gaal yuval: I have to leave again, but if you want to just go ahead and patch pugs' makefile go ahead
09:50 gaal (re the gentoo patch)
09:50 gaal if it makes sense on non-gentoo ssytems, that is
09:51 * gaal mooses off &
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09:51 yuval it doesn't... :)
09:51 pdcawley joined perl6
09:57 yuval when co from HEAD, it gets stuck a tiny bit later: Compiling Data.ByteString  ( ./Data/ByteString.hs, dist/build/Data/ByteString.o )
09:58 yuval one ghc-6.4.2 process is at 99.5% CPU :(
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12:13 audreyt ruoso: yes, they are part of jifty now
12:13 lambdabot audreyt: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:13 audreyt doc/talks/oscon.2006.xul
12:13 obra morning
12:14 audreyt ruoso: http://svn.jifty.org/svn/jifty.org/j​ifty/trunk/doc/talks/oscon.2006.xul
12:14 audreyt hi obra
12:14 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/h3mtw
12:14 audreyt lambdabot: @messages
12:14 lambdabot putter said 14h 48m 1s ago: Is there a vision for how Prelude.pm is going to evolve? It seems there is no way to define globals but "is builtin", which seems to have the unfortunate sideeffects of
12:14 lambdabot ripping things out of their defining module, and making multis non-multi.
12:14 audreyt mmm.
12:15 audreyt @tell putter indeed. will think about it.
12:15 lambdabot Consider it noted.
12:15 gaal audreyt: yo. what would be the least painful way of getting ~ newval to dispatch?
12:16 gaal (rather than be folded to "CCall" ++ etc.?
12:16 gaal )
12:17 gaal ..I don't want the new parsers to wrap their results in Val . VV, though supposedly that would work
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12:18 audreyt that seems like the best way actuall.
12:19 gaal aw :(
12:19 audreyt write a retVV helper perhaps?
12:19 Limbic_Region joined perl6
12:20 gaal oh wait! return $ Val $ VV $ val $ case inv of ....
12:20 gaal it already is an oldval
12:21 gaal so we must either give up on that CCall dumper or maintain a list of safe methods to dispatch to
12:24 audreyt the ccall dumper was transient anyway
12:25 audreyt it's intended to delegate to the ResponderInterface
12:25 audreyt which will then lookup a concrete Method objec t from a MethodTable
12:26 audreyt # http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/MO
12:26 lambdabot Title: Index of /MO
12:26 gaal oh cool
12:27 gaal with is moose for does, right?
12:27 gaal sorry, "with" is Moose.pm for "does", right?
12:29 gaal anyway, I gotta go once again. back in 7h or so.
12:35 audreyt okie
12:36 audreyt with is moose for does yes.
12:36 * audreyt triages on
12:37 audreyt @pl \x y z -> x ++ (y ++ z)
12:37 lambdabot (. (++)) . (.) . (++)
12:37 audreyt @pl \x y -> moose ++ ( x ++ y)
12:37 lambdabot ((moose ++) .) . (++)
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12:45 svnbot6 r13325 | audreyt++ | * Parse for siglets:
12:45 svnbot6 r13325 | audreyt++ |     :($, $, &)
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13:07 zeriod what is the difference between http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/ and http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/ ?
13:07 lambdabot Title: Revision 11986: /pugs
13:08 obra svn.perl.org is a mirror of svn.openfoundry.org (for pugs)
13:09 audreyt the first is readonly and the second is readwrite
13:10 audreyt zeriod: want a commit bit? :)
13:10 zeriod ok
13:10 audreyt your email?
13:10 zeriod i was going to help with the test smarklinks
13:10 zeriod i dont know how to use svn though yet
13:13 audreyt that's fine, http://search.cpan.org/dist/Pe​rl6-Pugs/lib/Pugs/Doc/Hack.pod has a quickstart
13:13 lambdabot Title: Pugs::Doc::Hack - How to hack on Pugs - search.cpan.org, http://tinyurl.com/nnepz
13:13 audreyt what's your email address? :)
13:14 zeriod send you a pm
13:15 kolibrie hmm, I'm trying to bring my pugs up-to-date, but on r12102 am getting the svk pull error: Incomplete data: Delta source ended unexpectedly
13:17 pdcawley joined perl6
13:18 [particle] kolibrie: it may require an upgrade of SVN::Mirror
13:18 [particle] 0.70 is latest iirc
13:20 kolibrie looks like I have SVN::Mirrir 0.68
13:22 audreyt zeriod: sorry, was disconnected
13:22 audreyt welcome aboard! add your name to AUTHORS as your first commit :)
13:22 audreyt after "svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs", edit the AUTHORS file, and then "svn ci AUTHORS".
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13:35 kolibrie [particle]: upgrading SVN::Mirror to 0.70 seems to have worked.  Thank you.
13:36 [particle] clkao++
13:36 kolibrie indeed
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13:39 lanny gaal or  audreyt: any guidance on extracting the isof of a sub using a Siglist and .signature?  Trying to implement  sort() and KeyExtractor uses that info.
13:40 lanny Well... I think it uses that info.  Spec could be interpreted as checking the type on the return value but that doesn't have to be a single type.
13:40 audreyt lanny: it's still unspecced that .signature would actually return isof
13:41 audreyt it's possible that .returns returns naother signature
13:41 lanny I was thinking .returns might be the inner return
13:41 audreyt nod
13:42 lanny I know it's unspecced which is why I am looking for  guidance rather than "the answer".
13:42 lanny Right now I just check the type of the returned val and play with that.
13:42 audreyt I think that's safest right now
13:42 audreyt I think it boils down to whether
13:42 audreyt my $sig = :(Int --> Int)
13:42 lanny Ok.  Guess it's time for  me to learn some more  Haskell and make the whole  thing work then.
13:43 audreyt makes any sense
13:43 audreyt lanny: woot!
13:44 audreyt it's more complicated for perl6 as we allow multiple, even named, return values
13:45 lanny Well.  Nobody ever said it was  gonna be easy.  :)
13:45 audreyt yeah :)
13:45 lanny my $sig = :(Int -> :(Int, Rational $phi))
13:45 lanny oops.  -->
13:46 audreyt if we allow that, then .signature encompasses both sides of
13:46 audreyt the function type
13:46 audreyt so you'd need to say
13:47 audreyt .signature.out
13:47 audreyt .signature.in
13:47 lanny But .signature is a Siglist.  Siglist itself could have attributes .params, .returns, .isof
13:47 audreyt yes but what is the type of .params?
13:47 audreyt SimpleSignature?
13:47 audreyt FirstOrderSignature?
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13:48 lanny heh.  Would love to just say Siglist again but that's not gonna do it
13:48 audreyt right.
13:48 audreyt well, we can say it's a subset of signature
13:48 audreyt but it feels very nonclean
13:49 audreyt I'd rather have Signature to be --> free, and have Code to have three Signature on it.
13:49 lanny agreed
13:49 audreyt and --> in declaration position is just shorthand to define isof
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13:49 audreyt and in :() literals it is bogus.
13:49 lanny also agreed
13:49 lanny Not sure I agree
13:50 audreyt but what would be the type of :(Int --> Int) then?
13:50 audreyt a CodeSignatureSet ?
13:50 lanny my $func;  my $sig = :(Int --> Int);  $func is $sig;
13:50 lanny $func ~~ $sig;
13:50 lanny Probably more useful
13:50 audreyt not really
13:51 audreyt $func is $sig is outside spec a lot
13:51 lanny Although $func.signature.isof ~ $sig gets there easier
13:51 audreyt since isTrait is named
13:51 enantiodrome left perl6
13:51 lanny ah gotcha
13:51 audreyt sub f is signature(...)
13:51 audreyt is canonical
13:51 audreyt so I think &code.signature, &code.of, &code.returns
13:51 audreyt is easiest (and makes slot allocatio agree with trait label)
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13:52 audreyt &code.of ~~ Int
13:52 audreyt is not bad at all.
13:53 lanny &code.of ~~ :(Str, Num, @x);
13:53 lanny Also not too bad.
13:54 lanny Not sure about mixing typed and untyped.  So used to systems that are all one or all the other.,
13:54 lanny Ok.  Thanks for the guidance.  I'll use &code.of ~~ as the leading possibility.
13:56 audreyt 'k. a S06 diff to p6l would also be much appreciated :)
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13:57 lanny Ok.  Will do.  Gotta take my girls to school and start the day right now.
13:57 audreyt yay!
13:57 * audreyt is about to sleep...
13:57 audreyt though I'd like to make
13:57 audreyt while f() -> $x {}
13:57 audreyt work ere I doze off.
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14:37 audreyt Limbic_Region: looks like http://www.haskell.org/ghc/dist/current/dist/​ghc-6.5.20060914-i386-unknown-mingw32.tar.gz is out
14:37 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/g7otr
14:37 audreyt havn't tested it myself though.
14:49 agentzh audreyt: is there a haskell builtin like perl's join?
14:49 agentzh unwords == join ' ' :)
14:56 audreyt @type intersperse
14:56 lambdabot forall a. a -> [a] -> [a]
14:56 audreyt > intersperse ',' "moose"
14:56 lambdabot "m,o,o,s,e"
14:56 svnbot6 r13326 | audreyt++ | * Don't parse :a as ::a.
14:56 TimToady reblink
14:57 agentzh audreyt: thanks!
14:58 audreyt TimToady: while/until doesn't bind $_ implicitly, but can do that explicitly right?
14:58 audreyt while f() -> $_ { ... }
14:58 audreyt repeat while f() -> $_ { ... }  # also this?
14:58 audreyt for that latter form I have arbitarily bound the first unconditional loop with the value True
14:59 audreyt and "repeat until" with the value False
14:59 audreyt sensible?
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15:01 TimToady the first is correct, and the second is probably sensible, though my own sensibility at this hour is suspect
15:02 nothingmuch awa
15:03 TimToady on the other hand, if it makes more sense to simply disallow binding on the repeat, that would be okay too.
15:04 TimToady esp if you think of the "repeat while" as a macro that does code motion of the while to the end.
15:04 TimToady where it makes no sense to say ->
15:04 audreyt you mean as postfix?
15:05 TimToady (at least as -> is currently designed)
15:05 audreyt but that introduces no scope
15:05 audreyt and doesn't quite apply
15:06 TimToady I mean if you remap repeat while X -> $_ {...} to repeat {...} while X -> $_ it makes little sense
15:06 TimToady under current scoping rules
15:06 audreyt ah.
15:06 audreyt right, exactly. though
15:06 audreyt repeat -> $_ {... } while X
15:06 audreyt can be made perfectly fine no?
15:06 TimToady yes
15:07 audreyt then I guess I'd prefer a bindable repeat :)
15:07 TimToady maybe it's "undef but True".  :)
15:08 nothingmuch lumi: ping
15:08 audreyt been thinking that :) though for enums "undef but" makes very little operational sense...
15:08 TimToady but an argument can be made that it's simply undef the first time
15:08 audreyt yes.
15:08 audreyt I think either concrete True or simply undef
15:08 audreyt undef might be better as it would allos
15:09 TimToady yes
15:09 TimToady make it undef
15:09 audreyt while f_ret_moose() -> Moose $x {}
15:09 lumi nothingmuch: pong
15:09 audreyt to not bindfail
15:09 TimToady right
15:09 audreyt yay :)
15:10 TimToady and it gives a good conditional to use to determine if you're after the first itme
15:10 TimToady *time
15:10 audreyt nodnod.
15:10 audreyt since normally it'd be undef,False,False,False,True
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15:10 TimToady or versa vica
15:11 TimToady well, you never see the final one
15:11 TimToady inside the loop, but yes
15:12 audreyt k, I amended repeat.t
15:12 audreyt will commit shortly and sleep :)
15:12 TimToady nnito
15:12 audreyt would be cool if you can hack S04 and make the new test smartlinkable :)
15:13 TimToady ryokai!
15:14 audreyt arigato gozaimasu!
15:14 TimToady these smartlink thingers are really good for what ails both ADD and autistic folk...  :)
15:15 TimToady nnito = not necessarily in that order, btw
15:16 nothingmuch TimToady: have you looked at the MO thing?
15:16 nothingmuch i'm thinking of proposing it formally as Perl 6's object metamodel
15:16 nothingmuch but my emails to p6l are always warnocked ;-)
15:16 TimToady ENOTYET
15:17 * nothingmuch makes a puppy face
15:17 nothingmuch brb, phone
15:18 TimToady it's been a crazy week here, between jury duty and plumbing and jet lag and more plumbing and weird orientations for lewis and jet lag and mail backlog and design backlog and jetlag
15:19 * nothingmuch wonders which part of that is worse ;-)
15:23 kanru joined perl6
15:23 * Limbic_Region completely misparsed "weird orientations for lewis"
15:23 svnbot6 r13327 | audreyt++ | * t/run/12-script-args.t: Remove "pugsrun" pugsism.
15:23 svnbot6 r13328 | audreyt++ | * more removal of "pugsrun".
15:26 svnbot6 r13329 | audreyt++ | * repeat.t: test for the soon-to-be-specced:
15:26 svnbot6 r13329 | audreyt++ |     repeat while f() -> $x { ... }
15:26 svnbot6 r13329 | audreyt++ |   that binds undef to $x first.
15:26 svnbot6 r13330 | audreyt++ | * POD.t: %=POD is not for this release, so TODO them.
15:26 svnbot6 r13331 | audreyt++ | * while.t: Fix bogus logic in "while f() -> $x {...}" tests.
15:26 svnbot6 r13331 | audreyt++ |   (now all subtests pass for this one.)
15:27 TimToady not to mention irc backlog...
15:28 svnbot6 r13332 | audreyt++ | * Implement bindable while/until loops:
15:28 svnbot6 r13332 | audreyt++ |     while f() -> $x { ... }
15:28 TimToady Limbic_Region: that would be school orientations.  :)
15:32 audreyt ?eval 1
15:32 evalbot_r13318 pugs: user error (*** *** Unsafe function 'use' called under safe mode         at -e line 1, column 1     at)
15:39 Limbic_Region yeah, I got it the third time I read it
15:40 TimToady he's in "Middle College", a strange cross between high school and junior college, and the orientation was to go to an organics farm and pick tomatoes for three days.
15:41 TimToady and all the taking and fetching adds up...
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15:42 * nothingmuch did a bit of that in highschool
15:42 nothingmuch it was an agricultural school
15:42 nothingmuch before i could pick cinema i had 1 day of work per week
15:42 * nothingmuch worked in the greenhouse
15:43 nothingmuch the big win was that people who majored in biology related fields had various experiments
15:43 TimToady beings as this is Northern California, I'm sure the emphasis was more on the "organics" than on the "farm". :)
15:43 nothingmuch my favourite was strawberries =)
15:43 nothingmuch heh
15:43 nothingmuch when i was there it was organic
15:44 nothingmuch by the timie i graduated they started using pesticides for the veggies and chemical fertilizers for the flowers
15:44 TimToady but mostly it was just something for the whole class to do together as a team-building experience, I suspect.
15:44 nothingmuch i think it was to keep people like me from eating the experiments
15:44 nothingmuch =)
15:44 TimToady organic farming would be easy if it weren't for those darn pests...
15:45 nothingmuch aye
15:45 nothingmuch especially since todays market is so intolerant to produce that doesn't look perfect
15:45 TimToady reminds me of software design...
15:48 xdg joined perl6
15:48 svnbot6 r13333 | fglock++ | v6 - more WHAT conversion
15:48 TimToady heh, one more week and I will have been running the same irssi process for 6 months.
15:49 nothingmuch ever since OSDC?
15:49 TimToady since Mar22
15:49 nothingmuch oh right, it's september
15:49 TimToady I guess that's pretty much the uptime on my wall.org server.
15:50 nothingmuch my uptime got screwed when the second ethernet card popped out of the PCI slot =/
15:50 TimToady obviously the power has been pretty stable here, considering I don't have a UPS on that machine any more
15:50 nothingmuch one would think power would only become stable after you buy a UPS
15:51 TimToady maybe it doesn't work like umbrellas
15:51 nothingmuch well, that's the case here anymoose
15:51 bernhard joined perl6
15:51 TimToady I think the power becomes more unstable so as to fry your UPS more quicly.
15:51 TimToady *quickly
15:51 nothingmuch oh... hmm. that's a good point.
15:52 TimToady In any event, the only UPS that has remained functional for me is the one on my fishtank.
15:52 TimToady the rest seem to have a halflife of about 6 months.  Maybe I'm just jinxed when it comes to UPSs though.
15:52 nothingmuch are they tropical or something? like, they need heat or they die?
15:53 TimToady just for aeration
15:53 nothingmuch ah
15:53 TimToady there's a great deal of thermal stability in a 100gal fishtank
15:53 * nothingmuch wonders how much that is in m2
15:53 TimToady and they can live for a while without the main filtration pumps as long as the bubbler keeps bubbling oxygen into the water
15:54 nothingmuch .3
15:54 nothingmuch that's a lot
15:54 nothingmuch .37
15:54 TimToady It's about 400 kg of water.
15:54 nothingmuch *nod*
15:54 nothingmuch like a bathtub and a half?
15:55 TimToady and you can bet I worried alot about how to anchor that sucker down for an earthquake.
15:56 TimToady it's not something you want landing on your foot, or any other part of your anatomy.
15:56 nothingmuch not something you'd want to clean up either
15:57 TimToady well, that probably can't be helped if it sloshes.
15:57 TimToady but slosh is better than crunch
15:57 nothingmuch i'd figure it would smash
15:57 nothingmuch or is it plexiglass or something?
15:57 TimToady given it's a saltwater tank, one also must worry about electrocution.
15:58 TimToady yes, plexiglass
15:59 TimToady so that circuit has a ground fault interrupter.
15:59 TimToady which as also been known to kill my server since it's the same kitchen circuit for both...
15:59 integral joined perl6
16:00 TimToady in fact, what usually kills the server is the refrigerator kicking in while both computers are up and we're making toast and coffee at the same time.
16:00 nothingmuch my dad once accidentally put the washing machine on the lighting grid
16:00 nothingmuch ... with a space heater
16:01 TimToady I've been meaning to split that circuit for about 15 years now, and even have the wires, but the cable routing in the attic is rather problematic.
16:01 nothingmuch how so?
16:01 nothingmuch too much stuff there?
16:02 TimToady getting through that last 4 feet to the circuit box involves getting under where the roof comes down really low.
16:02 nothingmuch ah
16:02 nothingmuch that's what children are for
16:02 TimToady and the existing conduits seem too full to fish something through.
16:03 nothingmuch is it std for circuitry to go through the attic?
16:03 nothingmuch we don't have attics here... it never occured to me
16:04 TimToady around here, yeah
16:04 TimToady plumbing tends to go down below in the crawlspace
16:04 TimToady well, the hot circuitry goes in the attic, but all the phone and ethernet tend to be below.
16:05 TimToady basically, if you spring a plumbing leak you don't want to be crawling around in well-grounded mud with lethal voltages in handreach.
16:06 nothingmuch in .il plumbing generally goes below the floor, and cabling is either dug into the wall and then covered in plaster, or is embedded in irrigation pipes
16:06 nothingmuch the soft plastic ones
16:06 nothingmuch usually they get bent in the concrete
16:06 nothingmuch so they make them redundant
16:06 nothingmuch quite hackish ;-)
16:11 * nothingmuch wonders how you tell P::G var nodes that their sigil is changing due to a subscript
16:13 kanru joined perl6
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16:28 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
16:32 xinming_ hmm, for contextual variable, what will it return by default if the key doesn't exist?
16:32 xinming_ eg, $*ENV<not_exist> or $+not_exist
16:33 xinming_ an error or undef?
16:33 nothingmuch TimToady: in p5, are labels for loops in an entirelyt different category than labels for statements?
16:33 agentzh i expect the former to be undef and the latter to be an error.
16:35 * xinming_ shakes hands with agentzh.
16:36 agentzh :)
16:36 PerlJam I expect them both to be undef except in the presence of pragmata used to modulate such behavior.
16:37 * agentzh is still playing with jifty on win32.
16:37 * [particle] plays with jifty on win32 also :)
16:37 agentzh wow
16:38 [particle] i wrote an app to manage use case definitions
16:38 xinming_ PerlJam: But the problem is, %*ENV is env hash, and $+contextual access...
16:38 xinming_ hmm
16:38 xinming_ not the problem
16:38 xinming_ just the suggestion. because, they are not the same in some sense. :-)
16:39 * [particle] thinks $+foo de-sugars to $*ENV<<foo>
16:40 xinming_ [particle]: No, $+foo is declared by env IIRC, and %*ENV is built-in,
16:41 xinming_ then, $+foo and %*ENV<foo> would be better to become the seperated thing, except searching for $+foo fails. It would equal %*ENV<foo>
16:45 TimToady and therefore a non-existent $+foo should return undef
16:46 TimToady well, it would be an "unthrown exception", actually, which would fail if you try to use it, or fail to test it.
16:48 TimToady nothingmuch: no, they're the same as far as the parser is concerned.  It's just that loops pay more attention to statement labels than ordinary statements do.
16:49 hexmode joined perl6
17:04 svnbot6 r13334 | fglock++ | v6 - 'Any' compile-time class
17:05 TimToady ooh, that number is extra 13334!
17:10 putter joined perl6
17:13 putter the other 6...  the r6rs draft is out, after, hmm, several, years.  http://www.r6rs.org/  woot.
17:13 lambdabot putter: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:13 lambdabot Title: R6RS.Org
17:13 turrepurre joined perl6
17:16 putter the reference implementations will be a nice aid to making scheme-on-p6 tightly compliant.
17:16 svnbot6 r13335 | fglock++ | v6 - join 'Value' compile-time classes into single file
17:18 ludan joined perl6
17:23 zeriod joined perl6
17:36 putter talk &
17:39 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/​Perl-Generate/ast_class_tree.rtf
17:39 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/la73u
17:39 nothingmuch someone please go over this if possible
17:39 nothingmuch i can export to other formats
17:42 zeriod is http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design/syn where i should be getting the newest synopsis
17:42 lambdabot Title: Revision 12083: /doc/trunk/design/syn, http://tinyurl.com/evycd
17:42 [particle] zeriod: yes
17:43 [particle] nm: what other formats can you do? the output looks funny for me
17:44 nothingmuch [particle]: omnioutliner 2 or 3, opml, html, plain text (tab separated, expanded tabs, or something else that i can't remember)
17:44 [particle] text or html would be great
17:45 agentzh zeriod: try out http://perlcabal.org/syn
17:45 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
17:45 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/P​erl-Generate/ast_class_tree_html/
17:45 lambdabot Title: , http://tinyurl.com/elxco
17:50 agentzh particle: does jifty's autocompletion works for you?
17:50 agentzh *work
17:50 [particle] nm: did you generate the topic list?
17:50 nothingmuch [particle]: no, i wrote it by hand
17:50 nothingmuch i'm rehauling Perl::Generate's AST
17:50 [particle] agentzh: haven't tried that yet
17:51 agentzh when i hit the enter key, it commits the page instead of completing the text in the textbox.
17:51 agentzh that is very annoying.
17:51 [particle] eew
17:52 [particle] nm: you're definitely missing some special block (PRE/POST...)
17:52 nothingmuch [particle]: that's perl 5, not perl 6 =)
17:52 [particle] ah
17:52 nothingmuch perl 6 can have a cleaner AST
17:52 nothingmuch i'm trying to model something that is easy to write by hand
17:52 [particle] __DATA is missing trailing __
17:53 nothingmuch given enough type info nodes can be coerced correctl
17:53 nothingmuch y
17:53 nothingmuch and then we get higher order macros at the price of not having perl's syntax
17:53 nothingmuch but for Moose & friends this is OK
17:53 [particle] i don't see 'no'
17:57 agentzh particle: it seems that the autocompletion problem is specific to my firefox. ie 6 works fine for the same page.
17:57 [particle] agentzh: i just upgraded ff to 1.5.0.7 today... maybe that'll help?
17:58 agentzh i'm already at the latest version. firefox updates itself automatically.
17:58 [particle] nm: need 'tie' or a 'tieable' role?
17:59 [particle] missing ? regex quantifier
17:59 nothingmuch ? is not a quantifier, it's more of a meta quantifier
17:59 nothingmuch i put it as a flag on the quantifiers
17:59 [particle] yeah
17:59 [particle] oh
18:00 nothingmuch hmm... what is tieable?
18:00 [particle] s/oh/ok/
18:00 nothingmuch any var, no?
18:00 nothingmuch any deref too
18:00 nothingmuch hmm... i suspect this is just LV
18:00 nothingmuch i need to clean up the string stuff a bit
18:00 nothingmuch i haven't yet decided, but i think it'll have it's own sub ast
18:00 nothingmuch that can be reused
18:01 nothingmuch and must be present in an appropriate quasiquoting op (q, qq)
18:01 nothingmuch instead of being just some kind of "constant" thing
18:02 * nothingmuch needs food
18:03 agentzh @tell obra jifty's autocompletion functionality does not work properly on my windows machine. when i hit the enter key, the whole form is committed instead of completing the text in the box. but my ie works fine for the same page. am i missing something obvious?
18:03 lambdabot Consider it noted.
18:03 [particle] agentzh: the #jifty folks are quite helpful
18:04 agentzh particle: i've just asked there, but no body has replied.
18:04 mauke joined perl6
18:04 obra agentzh: I've seen that locally myself recently.
18:04 lambdabot obra: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:05 agentzh obra: i'm happy to see you can reproduce it.
18:05 obra agentzh: I believe it's part of the "don't submit the page, but actually click the right form submit field  when hitting return" bug fix
18:05 obra the javascript there needs to be smarter
18:05 agentzh oh, so it's a known issue. :)
18:05 obra yeah.
18:06 agentzh hopefully it will be fixed *pretty* soon. ;)
18:06 agentzh in the meantime i can use ie as a workaround. :)
18:07 [particle] or mouse instead of kb
18:07 agentzh yeah
18:07 zeriod in cygwin i get: "Can't locate Pod/Simple/HTML.pm" when i do: "~/pugs/util/smartlinks.pl --check --fast *.t"
18:08 agentzh zeriod: you need to install Pod::Simple.
18:08 zeriod how do i go about doing that?
18:08 agentzh preferrably via the cpan utility.
18:08 [particle] > cpan Pod::Simple
18:08 lambdabot Not in scope: type constructor or class `Simple'
18:10 obra or hitting the right arrow or tab seems to do the right thing
18:10 agentzh okay
18:11 agentzh indeed
18:11 agentzh obra: thanks for the help.
18:11 agentzh jifty is lovely.
18:11 obra I'm glad you like it. what are you building?
18:12 agentzh i'm just trying out wifty. :)
18:12 agentzh i'm still new to jifty.
18:12 agentzh and also new to mason.
18:13 [particle] wifty i couldn't get working. i'll try again after i get my new laptop and install half of cpan again ;)
18:13 agentzh hehe.
18:13 agentzh particle: maybe you'd like to try out the jifty ppm package.
18:13 elmex joined perl6
18:13 * [particle] is just glad that half of cpan installs on win32
18:13 agentzh that is very helpful.
18:13 [particle] agentzh: i would!
18:14 agentzh :D
18:14 TreyHarris agentzh: hi :-)
18:14 agentzh TreyHarris: hi :)
18:14 TreyHarris i think it's been a week or more since we've both been awake and on channel at the same time :-)
18:14 agentzh TreyHarris: i'm about to leave.
18:14 TreyHarris course :)
18:15 agentzh i've just said "g'night, folks" on #jifty. :)
18:15 agentzh 2:12 AM here...end of day for me...
18:15 TreyHarris lol, well, take care, it was nice to see you briefly ;-)
18:15 agentzh me too :D
18:15 agentzh night &
18:16 agentzh left perl6
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18:29 svnbot6 r13336 | trey++ | [t/operators/reduce_le1arg.t]
18:29 svnbot6 r13336 | trey++ | Better smartlinks.
18:33 mdiep_ joined perl6
18:41 * nothingmuch returns
18:49 nothingmuch [particle]: any more comments?
18:50 [particle] i don't see void context
18:52 nothingmuch [particle]: that's just a non last statement
18:54 [particle] i think it looks pretty complete, then.
18:54 [particle] oh, qr? qw?
18:54 araujo joined perl6
18:57 [particle] and 'local'
19:12 nothingmuch qr is a quasiquoting op
19:12 nothingmuch missing
19:12 nothingmuch qw is under constants
19:12 nothingmuch local... hmm
19:12 nothingmuch i guess it's a sub decl
19:12 nothingmuch err, var decl
19:12 nothingmuch no, it isn't
19:12 nothingmuch you can localize any lv
19:13 [particle] agreed, any lv
19:16 * nothingmuch cheers for local @hash{qw/foo bar gorch/} = ($moose, $elk, $gopher)
19:21 zeriod joined perl6
19:21 zeriod doing the test smartlinks, would it be correct to link pugs/t/oo/can.t to S12/Introspection?
20:08 TreyHarris zeriod: yes, why not?
20:08 zeriod just checking i understand what im supposed to be doing :D
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20:34 TimToady ~.
20:34 TreyHarris cu: disconnected
20:37 zgh joined perl6
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20:50 TimToady interesting, I only had a half-duplex ssh connection.
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22:20 svnbot6 r13339 | fglock++ | v6 (misc/pX/fglock) 'emit( $ast )->perl' generates code; needs more work
22:22 fnave joined perl6
22:22 [particle] fglock++
22:23 fglock [particle]: the code is very ugly, because I'm translating the existing emitter - but misc/pX is a scratchpad area
22:26 fglock it can do simple compile-time things like ' 1.WHAT.say ' compiles to ' print "Int\n" '
22:26 [particle] fglock: it's been too long since i built pcr and friends. what's the make target?
22:27 fglock make target?
22:27 clkao need to fix those tests being disabled!
22:27 fnave Is someone still doing perl6 list summaries?
22:27 [particle] fnave: yes. subscribe to perl6-announce@perl.org for weekly summaries
22:28 [particle] or visit pugs.blogs.com
22:28 fnave Thx!
22:29 [particle] fglock: to build and test and use v6 and friends, what do i do?
22:29 fglock [particle]: just install as a plain cpan module - install v6
22:29 * [particle] cpan v6's
22:34 fglock mm - there are some failures from cpan-testers - it looks like a dependency version problem, but where?
22:34 [particle] fglock: line 632 if ($subname eq ... ) would be better as a map, i think
22:34 [particle] s/map/grep/
22:35 fglock [particle]: yes, I know - it will be a hash, some day :)
22:36 fglock [particle]: I'm currently rewriting other things
22:36 fglock the emitter just grew without a plan
22:36 [particle] looks like a lot of this could become multi-level dispatch
22:37 fglock sure
22:38 [particle] i'm still installing v6 and deps (new perl install, missing many modules)
22:38 fglock the v6 project works like: make it work -> refactor -> repeat
22:39 clkao but things are broken!
22:39 fglock clkao: we are in the 'repeat' part
22:40 [particle] :)
22:40 clkao by definition refactor should keep what's working working.
22:41 fglock clkao: yes, sorry
22:44 fglock clkao: I'm trying to split the emitter into manageable chunks
22:44 nothingmuch .oO( // is cool, but with an && ish counterpart we could have something nicer...
22:44 nothingmuch take the expr defined($a) && defined($b) && $a == $b
22:44 nothingmuch i'd like a meta chaining operator
22:45 nothingmuch $a <<< &&, == >>> $n
22:45 nothingmuch $a <<< &&, == >>> $b
22:45 nothingmuch where && is defined-and
22:45 Khisanth joined perl6
22:45 nothingmuch and <<< >>> is some funny syntax
22:45 nothingmuch ) zzzzz
22:45 nothingmuch (somebody remind me i dreamt of this when I wake up
22:46 fglock @tell nothingmuch remember the // && dream
22:46 lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:46 dakkar nothingmuch: write a macro!
22:47 mauke liftM2 (==) $a $b
22:47 mauke using the Maybe monad or something
22:48 nothingmuch mauke: that's the inspiration
22:48 lambdabot nothingmuch: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:48 nothingmuch lambdabot: tell me later?
22:48 nothingmuch ;-)
22:48 nothingmuch dakkar: i meant std
22:48 nothingmuch zzzzzzzz
22:48 markstos joined perl6
22:50 [particle] @tell nothingmuch he had a <<< crazy >>> dream
22:50 lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:50 fglock clkao: are you running a v6 smoke?
22:50 TreyHarris anyone have a suggestion of a good way to communicate a code review to someone else over the internet?  a unified diff with annotations?
22:51 fglock TreyHarris: you can work it online with gobby
22:51 [particle] gobby++
22:51 [particle] sobby is installed on feather, even
22:52 TreyHarris too much timezone mismatch, we don't have time to do it in real time
22:52 obra has gobby gotten visible cursors yet?
22:52 fglock going home &
22:52 fglock left perl6
22:53 dakkar TreyHarris: that's what I did when I had to do it...
22:53 dakkar I added comments and code fixes, and sent the diff
22:55 TreyHarris dakkar: yup.  thanks
22:55 TreyHarris just wanted to be sure there wasn't some obvious tool i was missing
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