Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-09-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:04 ingy nothingmuch: ping
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00:30 TreyHarris dduncan: so you're not happy with any(@x) ~~ { .condition }?  are you generally unhappy with smartmatch semantics lacking explicit identifier versions for particular cases, or just in this one specific case?
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00:32 dduncan unless the syntax of any() is being overloaded here to not make a set/junction, the problem I have is that it looks like it would make a set, which means it won't work for what grep() does ...
00:32 dduncan grep() works with ordered lists that can have duplicates, and returns ordered lists; a Junction/Set is not ordered and has no duplicates
00:33 dduncan but if any() etc is just overloaded syntax that doesn't make a junction, and it is easy to understand as such, then I don't have a problem with the above syntax
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00:34 dduncan or alternately, if any() etc is not supposed to replace grep, and just does set logic, then I also have no problem with it, as it is doing the set ops tha it looks like its doing
00:34 dduncan and I prefer it just does what it looks like its doing
00:35 dduncan that is all
00:36 TreyHarris well...
00:37 TreyHarris junctions are *not* equivalent to sets, AFAIK.  they are individual values that are composites of other values
00:37 TreyHarris so duplicates *should* be preserved
00:38 TreyHarris the lack of ordering is true, except than any() in list context has been specifically overridden to preserve order
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00:41 dduncan well, Junctions have been defined as being Sets with extra behaviour
00:41 TimToady junctions are a linguistic feature, not a mathematical feature, so it seemed sane to give them an interpretation in list context and not just boolean context.
00:42 dduncan though it was never made clear what all the extras were, afaik
00:42 TimToady "any" and "all" are borrowed from English, not from set theory.
00:42 dduncan but set theory includes those too ... set calculus
00:43 SamB the names should make that clear
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00:43 dduncan set calculus includes any, all, one, none, etc
00:43 SamB if they were borrowed from maths, they'd have funky symbols!
00:43 TimToady so?
00:43 * justatheory waves to TimToady
00:43 dduncan I'm jus saying that they aren't English-only
00:44 dduncan even if that was your influence
00:44 dduncan so I'm glad that they work both ways
00:44 TimToady I don't care if set theory has borrowed my wife--that doesn't mean that I'll take set theory's definition of my wife...
00:44 SamB ... I would be kinda mad at set theory if it borrowed *my* wife. If I had a wife.
00:44 justatheory Or your word that nothing happened with your wife
00:44 justatheory er, its word
00:45 Psyche^_ is now known as Patterner
00:45 TimToady actually, my wife is rather fond of set theory, come to think of it...
00:45 dduncan afaik, the english definition and set definition of those terms is the same, or close enough, so it doesn't matter where they came from
00:46 TimToady and I suppose by some definition or other she has been in union with set theory.
00:46 justatheory lol!
00:46 dduncan fact is, what we have something that works well
00:46 justatheory is now known as SetTheory
00:46 SetTheory Yeah baby!
00:46 SetTheory is now known as justatheory
00:47 TimToady I guess the kid would have to be named Venn...
00:48 justatheory Let me draw you a picture
00:48 dduncan I think there's a unicode symbol for it
00:49 TimToady well, speaking of She Who Must Be Obeyed, she just called me and told me to come to dinner.
00:49 TimToady so I will go and intersect with her. &
00:50 dduncan like all() === all() does
00:50 mauke_ is now known as mauke
00:51 dduncan and I think any() === any() is a union by contrast, or something
00:51 dduncan but whatever
00:52 dduncan or the latter is the intersection
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01:46 ludan hi
01:50 svnbot6 r13432 | audreyt++ | * Vivify global syms such as @*FOO and $*FOO.  This made
01:50 svnbot6 r13432 | audreyt++ |   ./pugs -CPIR work again.
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02:34 cventers hello, i'm doing a Perl 6 article and I would both like to ask a question and see if anyone is interested in reading a prerelase version of said article to make comments about anything I may have missed or misrepresented
02:41 cventers if anyone is interested in looking over the prerelease article feel free to mail me at [email@hidden.address]
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02:48 audreyt I'm interested :)
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03:08 svnbot6 r13433 | audreyt++ | * unbreak the build
03:10 ingy hi audreyt
03:16 * cventers is away: will return in a bit.
03:34 TimToady still seems broken: pugs: user error (*** Undeclared variable: "$fatal::DEFAULT_FATALITY" at <prelude> line 127, column 5-33)
03:55 MacVince !eval my @a = ([1, 2, [3, [4, 5], 6], 7], 8, [9, 10]); say ~@a
03:55 MacVince !eval my @a = ([1, 2, [3, [4, 5], 6], 7], 8, [9, 10]); ~@a
03:55 MacVince svnbot6: eval 2+2
03:56 MacVince oh well..
03:56 zgh ?eval say 'foo'
03:56 evalbot_r13431 is now known as evalbot_r13433
03:56 evalbot_r13433 OUTPUT[foo ] Bool::True
03:56 zgh gotta start with '?'
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04:36 svnbot6 r13434 | audreyt++ | * Oops, unbreak for real
04:45 TimToady now here's a cute one:
04:45 TimToady make[1]: *** No rule to make target `lib/.CGI.pm.swp', needed by `pm_to_blib'. Stop.
04:45 TimToady I think something was a little overaggressive with the globbing there...
04:49 TimToady make[1]: *** No rule to make target `Spec/.Functions.pod.swp', needed by `pm_to_blib'.  Stop.
04:50 MacVince .swp?  Those are vim temp files.
04:51 TimToady yep.
04:51 TreyHarris i'm still smoking r13336.  five hours now... my prior smoke of r13324 too just two hours
04:52 TreyHarris s/too/took/
04:52 TimToady you sure it's not looping?
04:52 TreyHarris nope, pretty steady progress
04:52 TreyHarris it's in t/xx-uncategorized now, so almost done
04:54 TreyHarris it could have been lack of memory... i had a browser crash a bit ago, and in my experience the browser often start chugging memory prior to a crash.
04:54 TreyHarris s/start/starts/
04:54 TreyHarris can't type tonight
04:55 TimToady you really clear back at 13336, or did you mean 13436?
04:57 TreyHarris hm... no, i'm at r13427... looks like i'm having the problem somebody mentioned earlier about pugs -v reporting an old result
04:58 TreyHarris but of course, that's what smoke reports.... *sigh*
04:58 TreyHarris guess the past five hours--just now finished--have been in vain
04:58 TimToady finally got through the make to actually start smoking r13434 myself.
04:59 TimToady I generally always do a realclean before a smoke, so I never saw the version problem.
04:59 TreyHarris anyone recall what the solution to the wrong version problem was?  i'm not finding the right keywords to conjure it up
05:00 TreyHarris yeah, besides make realclean... make usually takes an hour for me, make realclean two
05:01 TreyHarris er, make following realclean
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05:03 TimToady look for "touch" from dduncan
05:03 dduncan yes
05:03 dduncan try "touch util/version_h.pl"
05:03 dduncan then "make" again
05:03 TreyHarris ah, here it is: touch util/version_h.pl, from dduncan++
05:03 TimToady I expect "rm version.h" would work too...
05:04 TreyHarris oops.  i should scroll back down to the end of scrollback before typing ;-)
05:04 agentzh @tell audreyt i don't know how to reply malon's p6c mail: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.compiler/1511  maybe you're willing to help? :)
05:04 lambdabot Consider it noted.
05:04 dduncan well, the problem is in whether version_h.pl is invoked at all, not its contents
05:04 TreyHarris dduncan: danke
05:05 agentzh version_h.pl is significant to smartlinks.pl, i think.
05:05 dduncan I don't know the problem, except to speculate that something in Makefile.PL, which queries svn info, isn't doing the corresponding bit for svk
05:05 TreyHarris i use svn
05:05 TimToady there isn't a version.h to rm...
05:05 dduncan I use svk
05:05 agentzh me too
05:05 dduncan maybe you mean pugs_version.h ?
05:06 TimToady if that's what it recreates..
05:06 TreyHarris in that case, i guess it's broke regardless of the VC client you're using
05:06 mugwump_ version_h.pl special cases svn and svk
05:06 TreyHarris well... would it be valid for me to edit my smoke.html to put in the correct version number and upload it anyway?
05:06 TreyHarris and smoke.yml...
05:07 agentzh that is not elegent...
05:07 * agentzh backlogs due to lack of context.
05:07 TreyHarris agentzh: no, but i hate to waste a five-hour smoke, particularly as if i'm going to make again i'd like to make the current rev
05:08 agentzh TreyHarris: i think that maybe okay.
05:08 agentzh smartlinks.pl extracts rev number from tests.yml.
05:09 agentzh editing .html is fine too. i think.
05:09 dduncan mugwump, the contents of version_h.pl aren't at fault ... its whether that script is called at all that is the problem
05:09 TreyHarris agentzh: really?  tests.yml is two weeks out of date!
05:09 TimToady smoke.yml
05:09 agentzh ahh, it has been renamed.
05:09 agentzh sorry, i didn't know. :)
05:10 TreyHarris ah
05:10 agentzh anyway, the yml filename is passed to smartlinks.pl via a commandline option
05:10 agentzh i didn't hard-code the filename.
05:11 TreyHarris i wish i could get a handle on the build process, i'm flummoxed by it.  when i make install, it takes 30 minutes or so and rebuilds quite a chunk even though i haven't done anything since the make but a smoke...
05:11 agentzh i agree
05:11 agentzh "make fast" is more friendly
05:12 agentzh it seems that the smoking mechanism doesn't call version_h.pl correctly?
05:13 TimToady I gave up on make install, and instead put a symlink from /usr/bin/pugs into my build dir.
05:13 dduncan "make" in general doesn't call version_h.pl correctly
05:13 dduncan the smoke mechanism gets the number directly from Pugs
05:13 dduncan so the smoke will say whatever pugs -v says
05:13 agentzh from .h?
05:13 dduncan this isolates the matter of querying VC to just "make" time
05:13 dduncan I know because I made it do that myself
05:13 agentzh i'll try to fix that.
05:13 TreyHarris TimToady: aye, but when there's regression, i like having an installed pugs that i can continue using for whatever has regressed...
05:14 TimToady there is that...
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05:15 TreyHarris well, i'm getting a faster machine this week.  not tremendously faster, a core duo 1.8GHz... but still loads better than this 1.5GHz G4 ppc....
05:15 dduncan what machine is that?
05:16 TreyHarris and with 2GB of real RAM (this one is 1.25GB), so that should help too.
05:16 TreyHarris dduncan: a mac mini
05:16 dduncan I see
05:16 dduncan I'm on a dual 1-Ghz G4 myself, which probably about the speed of your current machine
05:16 TreyHarris i bet your smokes are faster
05:17 dduncan 768M of RAM though ... could use more, particularly when building some parts of Pugs
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05:17 TreyHarris especially if you have concurrent set to 2
05:17 dduncan I recall about 2.5 hours
05:17 agentzh it seems that $version_h doesn't get updated if one is using svk.
05:17 TreyHarris agentzh: i'm using svn
05:17 agentzh i'll try a fix.
05:18 agentzh TreyHarris: you're having the same problem?
05:18 TreyHarris yeah, my old iMac G4 800Mhz (bought the day they came out in Feb. 2002) finally gave up the ghost this past weekend.  i thought about a new imac, but i'd really like to have an external monitor to kvm with...
05:18 TreyHarris agentzh: yes
05:18 dduncan hm, was the smokeserv reset ... I don't see the older smokes anymore
05:19 agentzh thinking...
05:19 dduncan Trey, the smoke used to take around 5h to do on my machine, when Pugs' multi-threading was broken on my machine ... later it was fixed and them my smokes were about 2.5 hours
05:19 TreyHarris agentzh: my pugs is reporting r13336, but i just build r13427
05:20 dduncan broken meaning that smoke_concurrent > 2 didn't have any effect, with just 1 smoke process at once being run
05:20 TreyHarris s/build/built
05:20 dduncan er >= 2
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05:20 agentzh TreyHarris: what do you mean by "reporting"
05:20 agentzh and what do you mean "just build r13427"
05:20 agentzh ?
05:21 TreyHarris TimToady: is it/will it be legal to use unicode arrows for ->, ==>, <==, <=>, etc?
05:21 dduncan reporting = pugs -v
05:21 TreyHarris agentzh: pugs -v reports r13336, but i just built r13427
05:21 agentzh okay
05:21 dduncan Trey, did you try the touch yet?
05:21 agentzh fixing
05:22 agentzh Trey: does touch work for you?
05:23 TreyHarris dduncan: about to.  first i'm going to edit smoke.html and smoke.yml.  i think perhaps i should s/13336/13427/, but not in the pugs banner, to document this problem?
05:23 dduncan the problem is documented by us talking about it here
05:24 dduncan you can update your smoke files as if the version was working, since the public looking at them should have more accurate info
05:24 TreyHarris ok
05:24 dduncan or if you want to document it, add extra plain text text somewhere in the smoke html, which hopefully won't cause a parse problem on the smoke server
05:25 dduncan in addition to changing the nums
05:25 TreyHarris already uploaded with a global s///
05:25 dduncan good going gone
05:25 TreyHarris now i'll try the touch, but i guess i won't know for a bit
05:25 TimToady TreyHarris: not unless you declare them yourself, probably.
05:25 dduncan you'll know quickly
05:26 dduncan following the "touch ...", just do a "make", which should just take 1 minute or so
05:26 dduncan assuming you haven't made clean
05:26 dduncan then pugs -v is all the verify you need that it worked
05:26 dduncan that and, ...
05:26 dduncan a diagnostic line during "make" should say "compiling version.hs" rather than "skipping version.hs"
05:27 TreyHarris dduncan: ah, yes indeed
05:27 dduncan also, around the 6th output line during "make", it should say "version is NNN" or something like that
05:27 TreyHarris dduncan: but as i said before, make (for me at least) always rebuilds some things, even if nothing is changed in the interim
05:27 TreyHarris dduncan: yes, it did.
05:28 TreyHarris so the minimum time reported by 'make; time make' is 20 minutes or so
05:28 dduncan well, "make" is verbose, but it should only take a minute with no changes if you system is like mine
05:28 dduncan my pugs setup is basically just all the default settings, but some minor changes to config.yml
05:29 TreyHarris dduncan: interesting.  do you have an up to date ./pugs in your working copy now?
05:29 dduncan I also did a clean checkout just last week
05:29 dduncan more or less ... checking ...
05:29 dduncan my pugs -v says r13426
05:29 TreyHarris run make again
05:30 TreyHarris see if the timestamp on pugs changes.  in my case, it would
05:30 TreyHarris i don't have to touch anything but it gratuitously rebuilds pugs
05:30 dduncan actually, my pugs is r13433, but reports the above since I didn't touch the file since last time
05:31 dduncan 34 has an Eval.hs change
05:31 dduncan since I'm making with that, it'll take a bit longer, starting now...
05:32 TreyHarris ah, right.  but what i'm interested in is, once you're done, without touching a thing, running make again...
05:32 dduncan will tell ...
05:32 TreyHarris oh, that was comparatively fast.  only 8m
05:32 TreyHarris urgh, pugs -v still reports 13336
05:33 dduncan biab
05:33 TimToady pugs or ./pugs?
05:33 TreyHarris ./pugs
05:35 TreyHarris even though src/Pugs/pugs_version.h contains: "#define PUGS_SVN_REVISION 13427"
05:35 TreyHarris odd.
05:36 agentzh TreyHarris: you can fix util/yaml_harness.pl. :)
05:36 agentzh s/fix/patch/
05:36 TreyHarris agentzh: yaml_harness.pl isn't what creates the -v string, is it?
05:37 agentzh TreyHarris: i'm afraid that is intentional.
05:37 agentzh or you'll have to rebuild more after your svn update
05:37 TreyHarris agentzh: elaborate?
05:38 TreyHarris it's fine, i don't mind realcleaning this time.  but if i have to realclean *every* time... that is suboptimal.
05:38 dduncan back ... and make finished
05:38 dduncan so <= 5 min that time
05:38 agentzh TreyHarris: i think the real problem is the rev number contained in your smoke reports, right?
05:38 agentzh i can fix that.
05:39 TreyHarris agentzh: no, a perl -i -ape fixed that right up :-)
05:39 TreyHarris er, s/-a/-/
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05:41 dduncan version didn't change just then, a plain make after didn't change it either, but a touch and a make made it updaet
05:41 TreyHarris dduncan: touch of util/version_h.pl?
05:41 dduncan that workaround continues to work
05:42 dduncan and without that workaround, it is incorrect
05:42 agentzh dduncan: made it update every time is easy.
05:42 TreyHarris hm.  i wonder why not for me?
05:42 agentzh *making
05:43 dduncan it seems to me that the Makefile is treating version like typical other files where it doesn't remake it if it didn't change ... but version is special and shouldn't be treated that way, and in the past it wasn't
05:43 agentzh gotta run &
05:43 agentzh left perl6
05:44 TreyHarris ahh, i just found a possible culprit
05:44 dduncan did you now?
05:44 TreyHarris libHSPugs-6.2.12.a was well out of date, almost a week
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05:44 TreyHarris i removed it and am re-making
05:45 * dduncan brb
05:45 TreyHarris not almost a week... to Sep 15, which was when r13336 was
05:45 TreyHarris yes, that fixed it
05:46 TreyHarris but that just pushes the problem... why didn't make realize it needed to create a new libHSPugs?
05:46 TreyHarris and of course, this means that my smoke really was invalid...
05:52 dduncan Trey, from what I could see, pugs_version.hs contained the old value
05:53 dduncan that file wasn't recompiled because it didn't change
05:53 dduncan that file is set by version_h.pl
05:53 dduncan do you know for a fact that Pugs wastn't rebuilt aside from the version number?
05:54 dduncan from my determination, your smoke is still valid
05:54 TreyHarris the timestamp
05:54 TreyHarris and i hate to think that it takes an hour to *not* build a new pugs from source :-)
05:54 dduncan if that is so, then we may have multiple problems
05:55 dduncan or multiple manifestations of the same source problem
05:55 TreyHarris *nod*
05:55 dduncan anyway, back to $job for me ...
05:55 TreyHarris dduncan: ...
05:55 dduncan yes
05:56 TreyHarris well, what if I were to svn up now...
05:56 TreyHarris first do a recursive ls -l...
05:56 TreyHarris then svn up... then make
05:56 TreyHarris and, assuming -v doesn't update, see what had not been updated that one would think should have been?
05:56 dduncan you want to see what changed?
05:56 TreyHarris might give us clues
05:56 dduncan good luck with that
05:56 dduncan actually ...
05:57 dduncan if you copy the whole checkout dir first
05:57 TreyHarris seems like the problem is 1) targets are rebuilding when their sources have not, and 2) targets are not rebuilding when their sources have.
05:57 dduncan then if you have a utility to compare directories including file contents, ...
05:57 dduncan you could then see the old versions and new versions where they exist
05:57 TreyHarris *nod*
05:57 TreyHarris easily done.  rsync --dryrun :-)
05:58 dduncan I have yet to use any sort of rsync on purpose
05:58 dduncan backups are still manual
05:59 TreyHarris *grin*
05:59 TreyHarris ok, go $job
05:59 TreyHarris i'll poke around.
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06:47 nothingmuch ingy: pong
06:47 lambdabot nothingmuch: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:52 nothingmuch @seen putter
06:52 lambdabot I saw putter leaving #perl6 10h 1m ago, and .
06:52 nothingmuch oi
07:05 smee joined perl6
07:05 smee i kno more about computas than u all im da best hacker eva
07:09 smee left perl6
07:11 webmind then way didn't he stay to finish perl6? ;)
07:13 prefiks joined perl6
07:14 obra because he already did it ;)
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07:27 TreyHarris last time he came on, audreyt offered him a commit bit :-)
07:33 nothingmuch @tell putter commits welcome ;-) darcs send to http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/MO
07:33 lambdabot Consider it noted.
07:33 nothingmuch @hug
07:33 lambdabot Maybe you meant: msg run
07:33 nothingmuch @botsnack
07:33 lambdabot :)
07:33 nothingmuch ARR! how ye be fairing?
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07:38 svnbot6 r13435 | malon++ | smokeserv/smokeserv-server.pl - fix broken links to tests from TAP matrices
07:38 svnbot6 r13435 | malon++ | - Reported by markstos++
07:38 svnbot6 r13435 | malon++ | - Note that ext/ links will stay broken, because those files aren't checked out
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07:45 Juerd It's Prinsjesdag here today. The day on which the government announces the new budgets, and the queen reads this all.
07:45 drrho joined perl6
07:48 nothingmuch Juerd: here that could constitute as a talk like a pirate day activity
07:48 nothingmuch they are taking more budgets from welfare
07:49 nothingmuch and directing them to the army
07:49 nothingmuch so the pilots can have better lounges
07:49 Juerd Well, I just can't wait for the Queen to talk like a pirate.
07:49 Juerd ...for more than an hour
07:49 nothingmuch =)
07:49 Juerd "Yarr mateys of the Staten Generaal!"
07:51 Juerd ("Geachte leden van de Staten-Generaal", "Dear members of the parliament"))
07:51 Juerd s/))/)/
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08:13 dduncan I have a question on ... I think it's called "parameterized types"
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08:15 dduncan or "parametric types"
08:15 TreyHarris heh, shoot... i was just writing something about them :-)
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08:16 dduncan right then ... I was thinking that perhaps I have been thinking too complicated about how to make a Tuple type
08:16 dduncan then I thought, I don't know if I can do this myself or if it has to be built-in
08:16 dduncan if I could just say:
08:17 dduncan my Tuple of { Str $name, Int $age } $foo;
08:17 dduncan or there-abouts
08:17 dduncan the part in the curlies is meant to look sort of like a Signature
08:18 dduncan on the other hand, its meant to look kind of like a C struct, but without the cruft
08:18 nothingmuch dduncan: classes can receive tytpe parameters
08:18 TreyHarris I believe it would be my Tuple[Str, Int]
08:18 dduncan they need to be named
08:18 nothingmuch class Tuple[::t1, ::t2] { has t1 $fst; has t2 $snd }
08:18 nothingmuch it kinda sucks that they're positionals
08:19 nothingmuch but i believe it's on the agenda to fix them
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08:19 TreyHarris my Tuple[Str, :name, Int, :age] today I think then
08:19 dduncan part of the thing is, the base Tuple type itself doesn't declare any attributes ... its users do that
08:19 TreyHarris though none of this works yet, so 'today' only in the sense of the current state of the synopses
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08:20 dduncan same as users can say "Array of Int" vs "Array of Str"
08:20 nothingmuch so what type is it?
08:20 nothingmuch why not just use an anonymous class?
08:21 dduncan okay, how do I do that?
08:21 nothingmuch my class { has Str $.name; has Str $.age } $foo;
08:21 dduncan I see
08:21 nothingmuch i suspect
08:21 nothingmuch my $class = class { }; # this you can definitely do
08:21 nothingmuch and then you can bind it to a lexical type, i guess
08:21 nothingmuch my ::foo := $class;
08:21 nothingmuch my foo $var;
08:21 nothingmuch that *should* work
08:21 nothingmuch but it's only meaningful at runtime, of course
08:22 TreyHarris anonymous classes are supported, though their syntax is unspecified.  i'd be surprised if my class { .. } $foo did not work though.
08:23 dduncan even if that works, I would need syntactic sugar so that it looks like they are declaring a restricted hash
08:23 dduncan what I want is sort of like a restricted hash but that in addition to the names, you declare types for each possible member
08:24 dduncan which then looks more like a class def
08:24 TreyHarris but, if you're going to have more than one Tuple of the same Tuple type, and you need to support operations on two Tuples iff they are of the same Tuple type, then you'd need to use parameterization, and agreed, the current syntax is somewhat lacking.
08:24 dduncan maybe the anons will do what I want though
08:25 TreyHarris creation of new containers is currently unspecced as well, and it sounds like you're looking for a new container type.
08:25 dduncan there is a set of operators specific to tuples that these anons would need to have, so naming them as a parameterized class could do that, or I could say anon {...} does Tuple role
08:25 dduncan I'm hoping to reuse the meta-model functions to do some of the hard stuff
08:26 dduncan it is possible that a new container type is appropriate
08:26 dduncan my main goal here, however it is accomplished, is that the multi-paradigmitic Perl 6 would support the relational data model as one of its paradigms ... which means tuple and relation data types and operators
08:27 nothingmuch you could declare a meta object for tuples
08:27 dduncan they don't necessarily have to have the same names as existing implementations
08:27 nothingmuch and declare a DSL that inherits the grammar for classes
08:27 nothingmuch and simply constructs a different meta object as a result
08:27 dduncan well, I would like to know how I do that then
08:27 nothingmuch but that's not going to happen soon
08:27 dduncan part of my problem is that it appears that the meta-model is unspecced
08:28 nothingmuch i have a sketch that was working well for me
08:28 nothingmuch based on moose
08:28 nothingmuch which incorperates more than a year of research by stevan and audrey
08:28 nothingmuch audreyt wants to add it into pugs
08:28 dduncan and being a perfectionist of sort, I'm having trouble trying to make a half-baked version using what features do exist
08:28 nothingmuch if that sounds good enough for you to poke with: http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/MO/
08:28 lambdabot Title: Index of /MO
08:29 nothingmuch *nod*
08:29 dduncan I want to be able to use the meta-model api, yesterday
08:29 nothingmuch me too
08:29 nothingmuch that's why i wrote one ;-)
08:29 nothingmuch i hope larry likes it
08:29 dduncan the ironic thing is, isn't the Perl 6 meta-model already implemented?
08:29 dduncan isn't Perl 6 using it right now?
08:29 nothingmuch several are
08:29 nothingmuch not really
08:30 dduncan so is it just a matter of exposing the API to perl programs?
08:30 nothingmuch well
08:30 nothingmuch pugs' meta model is more of a temporary placeholder
08:30 nothingmuch it's optimized for fun
08:30 dduncan which one is yours?
08:30 nothingmuch that is, getting the max benefit in the least amount of heeadache
08:30 nothingmuch mine is just in that URL
08:30 nothingmuch it's in perl 5
08:31 nothingmuch it's designed to easily work in haskell too
08:31 dduncan one issue is, in my mind, what I require should be technically very simple
08:31 TreyHarris well, without creating a new container, and if you wanted it at compiletime, I think you'd have to do something like class Tuple[Array of (Str Pair{::Type})] or some such....
08:32 dduncan you used parens right there; what does that signify?
08:32 TreyHarris er, no, it would be a value parameter, not a type parameter, so class Tuple[Array of (Str Pair{::Type}) $tupledef] or some such....
08:32 nothingmuch dduncan: this is all highly conjectural
08:32 TreyHarris dduncan: just grouping parens, and == nothingmuch
08:33 TreyHarris probably unnecessary as i read S09
08:33 nothingmuch this is one of the areas that will probably get a big makeover
08:33 dduncan regarding the meta-model API, is that something that @Larry is designing, or is someone else like yourselves doing it officially?
08:33 nothingmuch once it's actually implemented
08:33 TreyHarris but your tuple would need an array of pairs with type keys and string values
08:33 dduncan pretty much
08:34 nothingmuch dduncan: no word from @Larry yet
08:34 dduncan er, it is a mapping of attribute names and type names
08:34 nothingmuch but once i feel that MO is kinda done, i will propose it officially
08:34 dduncan s/type names/type names or other anonymous type defs/
08:34 nothingmuch and hopefully @Larry will run it through and extract the parts they agree with and we will at least have something
08:34 nothingmuch btw, MO doesn't deal with typing
08:35 nothingmuch that's for a separate layer
08:35 TreyHarris unordered?  then you could use class Tuple[Str %attribs{::Type}] or somesuch
08:35 dduncan is MO a design or does it work now?
08:35 nothingmuch that must interpret the meta model
08:35 nothingmuch MO works
08:35 nothingmuch but it's slow
08:35 nothingmuch and desugared
08:35 dduncan yes, tuple attributes are unordered by definition
08:35 nothingmuch my next step is compiling it down to perl 5
08:35 nothingmuch for the named method dispatch type
08:35 nothingmuch which is the only paradigm supported by perl 5 ;-)
08:35 TreyHarris dduncan: interesting.  i was taught that tuples are ordered
08:36 dduncan a Tuple is like a key-and-value-type-constrained Mapping or Hash
08:36 TreyHarris how does a tuple differ from a struct then?
08:36 nothingmuch TreyHarris: he means something more like a record
08:36 dduncan yes
08:36 dduncan actually, the term tuple is overloaded
08:36 dduncan in the relational data model, it is a set of zero or more triples: name, type, value
08:37 dduncan the names are all unique
08:37 dduncan and keying is by name rather than by position
08:37 dduncan a tuple type is a collection of name, type pairs
08:37 dduncan and values of that type fill in the value parts
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08:37 dduncan sort of like class definitions ...
08:37 * nothingmuch goes to excercise
08:37 dduncan a tuple type is a class and a tuple value is an object
08:37 dduncan this said ...
08:38 dduncan if using the word Tuple is going to confuse people, where some think they are ordered, we could use another word ... maybe Record instead
08:38 dduncan it doesn't matter so much to me what it is named, as long as something with the right API and a descriptive name exists
08:39 TreyHarris well, wikipedia, the mother of accuracy, says tuples are ordered in the first sentence ;-)
08:39 dduncan one minute ...
08:39 dduncan that's domain specific ... some domains call tuples ordered, some don't
08:39 dduncan so perhaps Tuple isn't the best name, considering both of those meanings exist
08:40 TreyHarris but even if it is an overloaded term, I certainly learned the term as meaning ordered and until today wasn't aware that there was contention on the matter.  but your argument in re set theory versus English could apply here :-)
08:40 TreyHarris yes :)
08:40 dduncan mind you, even the ordered version comes from math
08:41 dduncan what about "Record"? ... does that suggest that fields are ordered?
08:41 TreyHarris but yes, the type parameter for whatever you call it would be that you'd need a mapping of types to strings (or some other symbolic thing)
08:42 dduncan elements of tuples are called attributes, at least in the relational model
08:42 TreyHarris dduncan: i think record is such an incredibly overloaded word that you can usurp it for any typed attribute relationship you might like and no one could reasonably argue :-)
08:42 dduncan that said, I do still prefer the most specific name possible that is applicable
08:43 dduncan I'm trying to search wikipedia now, but it seems to be stuck
08:43 TreyHarris well, then, it might be clearer to define a type, ThingieAttribute, containing a Type and a Symbol (or Str or whatever), and then say that Thingie (I'll leave it to you to decide a name) takes a Bag of ThingieAttributes
08:44 TreyHarris heirarchical typing is a PITA in every language that supports it.
08:45 TreyHarris AFAIK
08:47 zgh that's a quotable quote
08:47 TreyHarris zgh: which? :-)
08:47 dduncan and Perl 6 supports it already
08:47 dduncan eg, Foo of Bar of Baz
08:47 zgh 01:45 < TreyHarris> heirarchical typing is a PITA in every language that supports it.
08:48 TreyHarris well, that's not so bad, but (Array of Bar) Foo of (Array of Baz) Bat and such....
08:48 zgh and perl6's support is more fun than most
08:48 dduncan yes
08:49 TreyHarris zgh: i'm liking it so far, but i worry about it.  trying to finish a writeup of one of my concerns in fact
08:50 zgh TreyHarris: look forward to reading it
08:51 dduncan Trey, post that thing you're writing to p6l or something when you're done
08:51 dduncan and btw, even if it isn't sanctioned yet, I would be happy to use even an unofficial metamodel API soon, so there's something to play with
08:52 dduncan anyway, I'm off &
08:52 zgh Moose++
08:52 lumi Haskell does the higher-order typing nicely
08:52 dduncan I want to play with it in perl 6 though
08:53 TreyHarris lumi: I need to relearn Haskell.  I learned it immediately after Gofer and the two are quite muddled in my mind
08:53 TreyHarris where is YAHT, btw?  i went looking for it the other day and didn't find it, except for the copy in the pugs repo which appears to be truncated
08:54 lumi There isn't a link in READTHEM?
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08:54 TreyHarris lumi: there is, but it is 404
08:55 TreyHarris perlbot: YAHT
08:55 perlbot Yet Another Haskell Tutorial -- http://www.isi.edu/~hdaume/htut/
08:55 TreyHarris yes, that's broken
08:55 lumi http://www.cs.utah.edu/~hal/publications.html
08:55 lumi (He moved, apparently)
08:56 lumi http://pub.hal3.name/#daume02yaht
08:56 TreyHarris perlbot: relearn YAHT http://www.cs.utah.edu/~hal/publications.html
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08:56 TreyHarris perlbot: YAHT
08:56 perlbot Yet Another Haskell Tutorial -- http://www.isi.edu/~hdaume/htut/
08:56 TreyHarris hrm.
08:57 TreyHarris perlbot: relearn YAHT as Yet Another Haskell Tutorial -- http://www.cs.utah.edu/~hal/publications.html
08:57 perlbot relearned entry for YAHT
08:58 TreyHarris perlbot: relearn YAHT as Yet Another Haskell Tutorial -- http://www.cs.utah.edu/~hal/docs/#daume02yaht
08:58 perlbot relearned entry for YAHT
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09:00 lumi perlbot: YAHT
09:00 perlbot Yet Another Haskell Tutorial -- http://www.cs.utah.edu/~hal/docs/#daume02yaht
09:00 svnbot6 r13436 | lumi++ | YAHT moved, fixed URL
09:00 TreyHarris lumi: hah, I just conflicted trying to make the same change but using the other URL :-)
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09:02 TreyHarris dduncan: looks like in Haskell, a tuple is ordered
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09:02 lumi TreyHarris: I think he means that URL to be permanent
09:03 TreyHarris perlbot: relearn YAHT as Yet Another Haskell Tutorial -- http://pub.hal3.name/#daume02yaht
09:03 perlbot relearned entry for YAHT
09:03 * zgh boggles at 192 pages
09:03 zgh that's a lot of tutorial
09:04 mugwump_ that's ok, it means the slope's not so steep ;)
09:04 zgh i really liked haskell for the month or two that i knew it, but that was years ago and now it's incomprehensible again ^_^
09:05 * zgh reads &
09:05 TreyHarris well, my first formal programming course was in Haskell, so it should be like riding a bicycle, but strangely it's not.
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09:07 zgh wow the descriptions of haskell's goals sound amazingly like perl6
09:07 zgh 's goals
09:08 lumi Perl 6 is all about ideas that enjoy wide consensus :)
09:12 TreyHarris another random typing question: does every type encompasses undef?  or is it necessary to write (--> Int|undef), etc.?
09:14 * ruoso wonders if there is some class/module modifier to tell it should be read-only (in the terms of a shared library)
09:15 TreyHarris you mean closed?
09:16 ruoso hmmm
09:17 TreyHarris S12:1521: "There is I<no> syntax for declaring individual classes closed or final. The application may only request that the optimizer close and finalize unmarked classes."
09:18 ruoso It makes more sense to think as Roles actually
09:18 ruoso actually, roles works just like shared libraries
09:19 TreyHarris but one can instantiate a role as an anonymous class.  so the above would apply to roles as well, i think.
09:21 ruoso TreyHarris, but I think you don't have a way to change the Role itself
09:21 ruoso you can apply other roles and traits to an object
09:21 ruoso or even create an anonymous class that "does" a role
09:21 TreyHarris role Foo { ... }; role Foo is also { ... }
09:22 ruoso can you use "is also" in a role?
09:23 TreyHarris no, sorry, you're right
09:23 ruoso hmmm..
09:23 TreyHarris roles are closed at compile time
09:23 * ruoso having weird ideas
09:24 ruoso If this constraints apply to roles,
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09:24 ruoso one could make standard shared libraries from them
09:24 ruoso and use them wherever he wants
09:25 ruoso does it makes sense?
09:25 ruoso of course this would mean linking to the vm
09:25 TreyHarris i need more context to know what you mean.
09:26 ruoso It's possible to create Perl 6 shared libraries
09:26 ruoso that loads as any other shared library
09:27 ruoso and are actually shared among processes
09:27 TreyHarris why would that preclude runtime extension?
09:28 TreyHarris a perl 6 shared library wouldn't be ELF or dylib or something like that, it would be something special to Perl 6.
09:28 ivas joined perl6
09:30 * ruoso trying to think better and ellaborate more on that
09:31 zgh joined perl6
09:33 ruoso a shared library is just a ELF that declares some symbols with pointers to the code to be run as these symbols
09:35 zgh joined perl6
09:37 idiotmax joined perl6
09:38 * ruoso still thinking...
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11:03 agentzh i'm fixing the pugs -V problem.
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11:05 agentzh it seems that ghc won't compile Pugs.Version even if pugs_version.h has been updated.
11:06 agentzh so i'd make version_h.pl explicitly touch src/Pugs/Version.hs.
11:06 agentzh this should work for TreyHarris.
11:07 agentzh for svk users, i'd set $svn_entries to 'force_run' which is a phony target.
11:07 agentzh so pugs_version.h will be updated at every "make"
11:07 agentzh (for svk only)
11:08 agentzh for svn users, .svn will still be honored.
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11:10 agentzh unfortunately i don't use svk, so i can't effectively test the svk part.
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11:12 lumi agentzh: I use svk, how would I test this?
11:13 agentzh lumi: i'm still investigating the svn part. (there seems to be some problem.) i'll ping you if i'm ready. :)
11:14 lumi Okay
11:15 agentzh .o O { testing the pugs build system is really tricky }
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11:29 agentzh done!
11:29 agentzh lumi: can you help me now?
11:30 lumi agentzh: Yep, tell me who to shoot
11:30 agentzh after i commit the change, please don't rebuild your pugs.
11:30 agentzh after "svk pull", simply run "Makefile.PL".
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11:31 agentzh committed.
11:31 svnbot6 r13437 | agentz++ | * attempt to fix the rev number mismatch in pugs -v
11:31 agentzh after "perl Makefile.PL"
11:31 agentzh run "make fast"
11:32 agentzh make sure you see the line "Current version is 13437"
11:32 agentzh and the line "===> touching D:/projects/Pugs2/util/..//src/Pugs/Version.hs"
11:32 agentzh (or something like that)
11:33 agentzh note that you can't test twice.
11:33 agentzh only the first time is meaningful.
11:34 lumi Yes and yes
11:34 agentzh please also tell me if you see the line "Compiling Pugs.Version"
11:34 lumi        pugs_revision: 13437
11:34 lumi Also yes
11:34 agentzh and the rev number in pugs -v?
11:35 lumi 13437
11:35 agentzh great.
11:35 lumi agentzh++ :)
11:35 agentzh can you run "make fast" again.
11:35 agentzh ?
11:35 lumi Yes, what should I see?
11:36 agentzh this time make sure you see the line "Skipped Pugs.Version" instead of "Compiling Pugs.Version"
11:36 agentzh oh, i mean "Skipping"
11:36 lumi Not writing src/Pugs/pugs_version.h because 13437 == 13437
11:36 agentzh aye
11:37 lumi And it didn't show any of the files it's skipping for some reason, and thus didn't shoe "Compiling Pugs.Version" either
11:37 agentzh and also no "touching"?
11:37 lumi Oh, because I have 6.5
11:37 lumi Yes, no touching
11:37 agentzh oh, i see.
11:37 lumi s/shoe/show/
11:37 agentzh so it works now!
11:37 agentzh yay!
11:37 lumi Hooray! :)
11:38 lumi This should result in correct smokes, right?
11:38 agentzh i'm looking forward to more test reports.
11:38 agentzh lumi: sure
11:38 agentzh the smoker reads rev number from pugs -v
11:40 agentzh if anyone still need the "touch util/version_h.pl" or "make realclean" workaround to get the correct pugs version, please let me know.
11:40 agentzh *needs
11:42 agentzh lumi: thanks for the help. :)
11:42 agentzh lumi++
11:44 * agentzh looks into the Judy win32 rebuilding problem now.
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12:27 ptc #join parrot
12:28 Limbic_Region ptc try s|#|/|
12:28 Limbic_Region although you may be disappointed
12:28 Limbic_Region #parrot is not on freenode
12:28 Limbic_Region you want irc.perl.org
12:28 Limbic_Region salutations all btw
12:29 kolibrie Limbic_Region: salutations
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12:34 agentzh writing Makefile for nmake is a nightmare...
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12:34 agentzh i'm making full use of my perl 5 skills to do it right. :(
12:34 Limbic_Region agentzh - by hand?  Or are you writing code to write a makefile
12:35 agentzh 60% is generated while 40% is written by hand.
12:35 Limbic_Region oh - if you are writing code to generate the Makefile then there should be some nifty tricks you can pick up by looking at how Pugs does it
12:35 agentzh 100% automated seems impossible.
12:36 agentzh Limbic_Region: sure
12:36 Limbic_Region in fact, the generated Pugs Makefile doesn't even require nmake.exe 7.x (I accidently had a $ENV{PATH} problem and used 1.5)
12:37 agentzh Limbic_Region: yes, i'm also writing nmake 1.5-compatible code.
12:37 Limbic_Region short lines are key there
12:37 * agentzh is just trying to understand the Judy compilation flow.
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12:38 agentzh Limbic_Region: really? i didn't know. :)
12:38 agentzh so i need to use "\" to split long lines?
12:38 agentzh i didn't have nmake 1.5 so i can't test it. :)
12:38 Limbic_Region agentzh - I am not even sure that will work though audreyt would know for sure
12:39 agentzh s/didn't/don't/
12:39 agentzh okay
12:39 Limbic_Region she is the one that fixed the Pugs Makefile for me due to the long line breakage IIRC
12:40 agentzh ah
12:40 Limbic_Region does this have anything to do with Makefile::Parser ?
12:40 agentzh to my surprise, pugs' Makefile on my machine contains a lot of very long lines. :)
12:41 agentzh Limbic_Region: nah
12:41 agentzh i'm just wanting to offer a Makefile.win for judy.
12:42 agentzh so we win32 guys won't need to build judy at very make if we have a Makefile.
12:42 Limbic_Region agentzh - so what are the major differences then between a nmake compatible Makefile and say - dmake or ming32-make or msys make?
12:43 agentzh i planned to rewrite Makefile::Parser completely this summer. unfortunately i sidetracked to pugs. :)
12:43 Limbic_Region s/un//
12:43 agentzh nmake is much more stupid.
12:43 agentzh there's very few magic in nmake that i can use.
12:44 agentzh i'm not familiar with dmake. not sure if it's better.
12:44 agentzh gmake is very very powerful compared to nmake.
12:46 Limbic_Region well, IMO, the solution would be to remove the dependency on nmake and use another freely available make on Win32
12:46 Limbic_Region but that's just my opinion
12:47 agentzh well, my Makefile.win32 should also work with other versions of make.
12:47 agentzh its syntax very very simple.
12:48 Limbic_Region well, good luck
12:48 agentzh *is
12:48 agentzh thanks
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12:53 ludan ciao
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13:24 agentzh yay! now we have Makefile.win32 for Judy!
13:25 agentzh This Makefile saves 1/3 of the running time of "nmake fast" if there's no change in the pugs tree.
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13:28 weinig|zZz is now known as weinig|away
13:28 svnbot6 r13438 | agentz++ | [judy/Judy-1.0.3/src/Makefile.win32]
13:28 svnbot6 r13438 | agentz++ | - added this Judy Makefile for Win32 users.
13:28 svnbot6 r13439 | agentz++ | [util/build_pugs.pl]
13:28 svnbot6 r13439 | agentz++ | - the pugs build system now uses Judy's Makefile.win32
13:28 svnbot6 r13439 | agentz++ |   instead of .bat.
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13:50 svnbot6 r13440 | agentz++ | [third-party/judy/Judy-1.0.3/src/hs_build.bat]
13:50 svnbot6 r13440 | agentz++ | - added comment that this file is no longer used by
13:50 svnbot6 r13440 | agentz++ |   the pugs build system.
13:51 fglock mm - I believe t/xx-uncategorized/rule_recursive.t is wrong - the first choice in / <null> | x <r> / is <null>
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13:59 svnbot6 r13441 | agentz++ | [third-party/judy/Judy-1.0.3/src/Makefile.win32]
13:59 svnbot6 r13441 | agentz++ | - added missing items to its `clean' target.
13:59 svnbot6 r13442 | agentz++ | [util/build_pugs.pl]
13:59 svnbot6 r13442 | agentz++ | - added /nologo to nmake calling.
13:59 audreyt fglock: I noticed too, it should be corrected
14:00 fglock ok
14:02 svnbot6 r13443 | agentz++ | [Makefile.PL]
14:03 svnbot6 r13443 | agentz++ | - added the `judy_clean' target to the Makefile to be
14:03 svnbot6 r13443 | agentz++ |   generated. judy_clean invokes "make clean" on *nix and
14:03 svnbot6 r13443 | agentz++ |   "nmake /F Makefile.win32 clean" on Win32.
14:03 svnbot6 r13443 | agentz++ | - made `judy_clean' a dependent of the `realclean'
14:03 svnbot6 r13443 | agentz++ |   target.
14:03 svnbot6 r13443 | agentz++ | (I'm sure cmarcelo will be happy with this commit. :))
14:06 svnbot6 r13444 | agentz++ | [Makefile.PL]
14:06 svnbot6 r13444 | agentz++ | - renamed the `judy_clean' target to `cleanjudy'. :)
14:06 agentzh anyone on *nix willing to test Makefile.PL for me?
14:07 agentzh simply run "perl Makefile.PL && make cleanjudy" and paste the outputs here.
14:07 agentzh (i mean via nopaste)
14:08 agentzh i can only test the win32 part of the new patch.
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14:11 * agentzh thinks #perl6 is kinda inactive at this moment. :)
14:13 agentzh i'm pleased to see the pugs build system becomes better after tonight's work. whee!
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14:15 agentzh i'm not sure if it's really worth my time because audreyt has said the build system will experience great refactoring once GHC 6.6 is out.
14:15 agentzh but anyway...
14:17 * agentzh now tries to find something else to do.
14:19 agentzh okay, 22:17 PM here. end of day for me &
14:19 agentzh left perl6
14:19 ajs TreyHarris: I disagree with both the assertion that Perl 6 code as shared lib would prevent runtime modification AND that Perl 6 as shared lib would not be an elf or similar shared object. There are lots of ways to do both.
14:19 lambdabot ajs: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:20 ajs Thank you lambdabot! ;)
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14:21 agentzh @tell TreyHarris the pugs -v rev number problem ought to have been solved.
14:21 lambdabot Consider it noted.
14:21 agentzh @tell dduncan the pugs -v rev number problem ought to have been solved.
14:21 lambdabot Consider it noted.
14:21 ajs agentzh: I'll run it for you
14:21 agentzh @tell TimToady the pugs -v rev number problem ought to have been solved.
14:21 lambdabot Consider it noted.
14:22 ajs tell me how to nopaste
14:22 agentzh ajs: nice!
14:22 kolibrie ajs: see topic
14:22 agentzh http://sial.org/pbot/
14:22 lambdabot Title: sial.org Pastebot - pasteling
14:22 ajs I have to re-update. I was hunting through revisions for a bug, so I need to get a clean update first... just a few
14:23 agentzh ajs++
14:24 ajs Hmmm... gnupg is running a logo contest. Makes me think about a pugs logo contest. That would be an interesting item for just about the time we're ready for wider beta.
14:25 agentzh hehe
14:25 agentzh that's a funny idea
14:26 ajs I can just see someone doing a pug dog with a hump on it's back and dollar-signs for eyes....
14:26 agentzh lol
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14:27 ajs damn, I'm getting this "object of the same name already exists" problem where I have to wait for svn to die for 30 seconds, delete something and re-run
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14:28 agentzh ah
14:28 zgh joined perl6
14:29 ajs It's an iterative thing... will take me a few more min
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14:29 agentzh no problem. :)
14:29 agentzh i can wait.
14:30 ajs Pastebot is nice.
14:31 ajs What are the current efforts with respect to handling Perl 5 code? Are there multiple?
14:32 agentzh you mean p5 embedding or v6.pm?
14:33 ajs I mean Perl 5 code as parsed by Perl 6 compilers.
14:33 * agentzh doesn't quite understand.
14:33 ajs use v6; my $x = 1; use v5; $x=~s/(.)\1//g; use v6; say $x;
14:34 ajs or whatever. dumb example, but you get the point
14:34 agentzh oh, i'm not aware of such kind of things in pugs.
14:34 agentzh iirc, v6.pm can handle use v5.
14:34 agentzh but not sure.
14:34 ajs Ok, I thought someone was writing a p5 parser/runtime since PONIE was kaput
14:34 agentzh fglock: confirm it?
14:35 fglock agentzh: yes
14:36 fglock agentzh: but v6.pm doesn't compile p5 code - it passes it to perl5
14:36 ajs I really want to know what makes svn lose it's brain and decide not to update a subdir unless I manually blow it away
14:36 agentzh got it
14:37 ajs fglock: Yeah, it seems to me that we need a pure Perl 6 parser/runtime for Perl 5 at some point, though that's a huge job, and figuring out how to move over XS would be interesting.
14:37 agentzh fglock: btw, i'm so glad to see you are implementing missing features in PCR.
14:38 agentzh .o O ( only perl5 can parse perl5 )
14:38 fglock agentzh: thanks!
14:38 ajs agentzh: Hence the proposal that Perl 6 parse Perl 5 ;)
14:38 agentzh fglock: thank _you_!
14:39 fglock ajs: I think the p6p6 compiler can be reused to compile perl5 - but it would need a lot of tweaking
14:39 agentzh ajs: that can be very hard i'm afraid. :)
14:39 ajs I was looking at it earlier. I would never have wanted to write lex/yacc from scratch for P5. It's WAY too context sensitive. However, P6 rules make a lot of that easier to cope with.
14:39 fglock the perl6 parser is actually much simpler than the perl5 parser
14:40 ajs fglock: yes!
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14:42 ajs The problem with P5 is that you have to read the P5 source code for the spec, and it's often heuristicly defined.
14:42 avar p5 can't be parsed with a plain lex/yacc combo
14:42 ajs cd third-party\judy\Judy-1.0.3\src && nmake /nologo /F Makefile.win32 clean
14:42 ajs /bin/sh: line 0: cd: third-partyjudyJudy-1.0.3src: No such file or directory
14:43 fglock lunch &
14:43 agentzh ajs: you're on *nix?
14:44 agentzh ajs: thank you for your report! fixing
14:44 kolibrie agentzh: I'm planning on rebuilding pugs in a couple hours, and can test your Makefile
14:45 kolibrie if no one else gets there first
14:45 agentzh kolibrie: that's fine.
14:45 agentzh kolibrie: ajs just found a bug in Makefile.PL
14:45 agentzh and i'm now fixing.
14:45 ajs Work thing coming up... brb
14:45 agentzh that's...really a stupid mistake. :P
14:46 agentzh ajs: see you!
14:46 agentzh ajs++
14:47 ajs Ok, taken  care of.
14:48 ajs Let me know when I should try again
14:48 agentzh okay!
14:50 agentzh ajs: now you can try again. :)
14:51 agentzh committed already.
14:51 svnbot6 r13445 | agentz++ | [Makefile.PL]
14:51 svnbot6 r13445 | agentz++ | - fixed a stupid OS detecting mistake. (thanks ajs++ for
14:51 svnbot6 r13445 | agentz++ |   reporting this bug)
14:51 ajs Trying
14:53 agentzh it at least works for both my cygwin and windows. :)
14:54 pasteling "ajs" at 63.107.91.99 pasted "judy run failed" (80 lines, 3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/19794
14:55 agentzh oh...
14:55 agentzh looking now
14:56 ajs Looks like a Makefile wasn't regenerated that was needed in a "make clean" step
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14:56 agentzh weird.
14:57 agentzh it shouldn't have triggered in the perl Makefile.PL step.
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14:58 ajs Sec, let me put in some echos between commands. I think Makefile.PL had just finished
14:59 ajs Yeah, that "cd third-party..." is the first line of output from "make cleanjudy", and it gets no further than that, reporting that there is no rule to make target 'clean'
14:59 ajs In the totally annoying gnuish `clean' quoting... grrr...
15:00 agentzh ajs: the error messages are from "make cleanjudy" rather than "perl Maekfile.PL", right?
15:00 ajs Yep
15:00 agentzh got it.
15:00 ajs Yeah, it looks like there is no Makefile in that directory at all right now
15:00 agentzh fixing
15:04 agentzh ajs: "make fast" and then "make cleanjudy"
15:05 agentzh i really don't want to use Makefile.win32 to clean judy on *nix. ;)
15:06 ajs is make fast an alias for make unoptimized?
15:06 agentzh it seems that your pugs is a fresh checkout.
15:06 agentzh aye
15:06 agentzh or "make optimized" if you prefer.
15:06 ajs agentzh: My pugs has been updated to version 11,000-something and back again, so it's going to be fairly cleaned out.
15:07 agentzh *nod*
15:07 ajs But, one would presume that cleanjudy should depend on fast if it needs it?
15:07 agentzh cleanjudy depends on the judy building not directly on "fast".
15:08 ajs make is still running
15:09 agentzh it requires some time.
15:09 ajs agentzh: I'm just saying, it should have a depend chain that allows it to work "out of the box"
15:09 agentzh ajs: okay, i'll try a fix then.
15:09 agentzh a sec...
15:11 agentzh fixed
15:11 agentzh committing now
15:11 ajs I'll let the first run finish, then I'll re-run after a make distclean to see what the new one does
15:12 svnbot6 r13446 | agentz++ | [Makefile.PL]
15:12 svnbot6 r13446 | agentz++ | - uses Judy's Makefile.win32 to do cleanjudy (a bug
15:12 svnbot6 r13446 | agentz++ |   discovered by ajs++)
15:12 ajs Finished with no errors. Does judyclean just do a make clean in the judy dir?
15:12 agentzh ajs: don't make distclean.
15:12 agentzh that's not needed.
15:13 agentzh ajs: update first
15:13 ajs I was just going to make sure your dependency fix worked
15:13 agentzh use r13446
15:13 agentzh fine
15:13 ajs Re-running now
15:13 ajs no distclean
15:13 agentzh k
15:14 agentzh for testing r13446, simply remove third-party/judy/Judy-1.0.3/src/Makefile will suffice.
15:14 agentzh *removing
15:15 agentzh and also run "make cleanjudy" multiple times...
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15:15 agentzh sorry, i mean third-party/judy/Judy-1.0.3/Makefile
15:16 agentzh distclean won't remove Judy's Makefiles, i'm afraid.
15:16 agentzh even realclean won't either.
15:16 agentzh so one have to do that by hand.
15:16 agentzh *has
15:16 ajs agentzh: Hmm... that's not happy
15:17 agentzh which part is not happy?
15:17 ajs That distclean doesn't distclean
15:17 agentzh heh
15:17 ajs Multiple runs of cleanjudy works
15:18 ajs However ... "perl -MExtUtils::Command -e rm_f JudyCommon\JudyMalloc.o" please tell me something is translating that backslash
15:19 agentzh oh well
15:19 agentzh does "\" work for you?
15:19 agentzh i'll convert \ to /.
15:19 agentzh fixing now
15:19 ajs afk
15:19 agentzh oh...there's no easy fix...
15:20 agentzh i think perl is able to handle that automatically, isn't it?
15:23 agentzh okay, Makefile.win32 is not *nix friendly...i'll revert r13446...
15:25 agentzh well, very few people will run "make realclean" or "make cleanjudy" on a fresh pugs checkout...(unless testers, for sure)
15:25 agentzh so we can safely ignore this corner case.
15:30 svnbot6 r13447 | agentz++ | [Makefile.PL]
15:31 svnbot6 r13447 | agentz++ | - reverted r13446, since Makefile.win32 is not *nix-
15:31 svnbot6 r13447 | agentz++ |   friendly. so we will simply ignore the corner case
15:31 svnbot6 r13447 | agentz++ |   that the user does "make realclean" and
15:31 svnbot6 r13447 | agentz++ |   "make cleanjudy" on a fresh pugs checkout.
15:34 svnbot6 r13448 | audreyt++ | * Remove some redundant imports.
15:34 svnbot6 r13449 | audreyt++ | * "do {...} while 1" is now explicitly disallowed.
15:34 svnbot6 r13449 | audreyt++ |   (same applies to other statement modifiers."
15:34 agentzh yay! audreyt++
15:35 agentzh so more tests should pass now in do.t.
15:35 * agentzh thinks he needs a fast machine.
15:36 agentzh okay, win32 builds okay from scratch.
15:37 [particle] how can you run make anything after make realclean? doesn't realclean remove the makefile?
15:37 agentzh cygwin build is broken.
15:37 agentzh [particle]: it's Judy's Makefile, not pugs'
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15:38 [particle] makefile.pl doesn't create judy's makefile?
15:38 agentzh particle: it doesn't.
15:38 agentzh [particle]: for some reasons that i *do* know. :)
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15:39 agentzh it's impossible to generate a Judy Makefile on Win32.
15:39 fglock anyone help me trace a perl5 problem? in v6, Test::report_failure() - Match objects are being stringified as "Pugs::Runtime::Match=REF(0x87dca7c)" - the overloaded stringification is not being called; it works elsewhere
15:39 agentzh but we can make it so on *nix.
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15:39 [particle] agentzh: well, it could be as simple as a rename
15:39 agentzh [particle]: rename what?
15:40 agentzh [particle]: thank you for suggesting generating Makefile for Judy dureing Makefile.PL
15:40 [particle] np
15:40 agentzh i'm adding that now.
15:40 [particle] i don't understand makefile.pl much... i'm too used to the configure.pl in parrotland
15:40 agentzh (just for *nix users, since win32 users already have their own Makefile.win32)
15:40 [particle] so, that should remove the corner case?
15:41 agentzh yep!
15:41 [particle] yay!
15:41 agentzh :)
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15:43 agentzh oh, the building logic for *nix judy is bogus.
15:43 agentzh at least it seems to be.
15:43 agentzh i won't fix that since i can't test it locally.
15:45 agentzh is mac's shell similar to *nix?
15:46 [particle] yes, mac's os is bsd-based iirc
15:47 agentzh okay
15:48 agentzh people on mac is lucky.
15:48 agentzh *are
15:48 agentzh particle: Judy's configure takes quite a long time...
15:49 [particle] i see, so rather than subject windows users to a slow process, the result is included instead?
15:49 agentzh i'll check the existence of Makefile and config.status before configure.
15:50 agentzh [particle]: sort of.
15:50 agentzh :)
15:50 agentzh win32's judy building is *damn* fast. :)
15:51 fglock mm - just adding this line makes the program die:  if (overload::Overloaded $got) { print "Overloaded\n" }  - but it only dies several statements later
15:52 svnbot6 r13450 | agentz++ | [Makefile.PL]
15:52 svnbot6 r13450 | agentz++ | - generated Judy's Makefile during the "perl Makefile.PL"
15:52 svnbot6 r13450 | agentz++ |   phase as suggested by [particle]++ (this patch only
15:52 svnbot6 r13450 | agentz++ |   affects non-Win32 users.)
15:53 agentzh anyone on *nix willing to test r13450 for me?
15:53 * agentzh thinks it is a long day for him.
15:57 agentzh svn log ~= s/generated/generates/
15:58 ajs svn log ~~ s/ generated / generates /
15:58 mauke parse error before =
15:58 agentzh :P
15:58 agentzh that is p5. :)
15:58 mauke no, =~ is
15:58 ajs How many people do you think will make the mistake of thinking that whitespace in the substitution spec is ignored?
15:59 agentzh oh, sorry...
15:59 agentzh ajs: have some cycles to try out r13450?
15:59 ajs Yeah, ~= in P6 is going to freak me out for a while
15:59 ajs agentzh: sure
15:59 agentzh it should have fixed all your problems.
16:00 agentzh thanks to [particle]++'s suggestion.
16:00 ajs All my problems? What about that burning sensation?
16:00 ajs clean run, thanks
16:00 agentzh Judy's Makefile is now generated at "perl Makefile.PL"
16:00 ajs nice
16:00 agentzh so "make cleanjudy" on a fresh checkout is fine now.
16:04 * agentzh has been making so many stupid mistakes since he has well passed his bedtime.
16:05 agentzh my brain gets fried...
16:06 [particle] "this is your brain on pugs"
16:07 agentzh (?)
16:07 kolibrie agentzh: I just finished my svk pull, which commands do you want tested?
16:08 agentzh great
16:08 agentzh "perl Makefile.PL"
16:08 agentzh tell me if you see the Judy configuration process.
16:08 agentzh and also the rev number
16:09 agentzh sorry, ignore the "rev number" crapt.
16:09 kolibrie it did say Configuring Judy...
16:10 kolibrie and then a bunch of automake-style checks
16:10 [particle] agentzh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Your_Brain_On_Drugs
16:10 agentzh what's right below that line?
16:10 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/jf9cx
16:10 agentzh [particle]: looking
16:11 agentzh kolibrie: oh, that's right.
16:12 kolibrie agentzh: checking whether to enable maintainer-specific portions of Makefiles... no
16:12 agentzh cool
16:12 agentzh kolibrie: that is correct behavior.
16:12 kolibrie agentzh: anything else before I 'make'
16:13 agentzh "make judyclean"
16:13 agentzh sorry, i mean "make cleanjudy"
16:13 kolibrie done
16:14 agentzh any errors/
16:14 agentzh ?
16:14 agentzh so there's no error at all?
16:15 kolibrie just recursed through a bunch of directories, and all looks okay
16:15 agentzh cool
16:15 kolibrie now make?
16:15 agentzh check out third-party\judy\Judy-1.0.3\src to see if any subdirectories contain .o files
16:16 agentzh and .c files which are not under version control.
16:16 * kolibrie tries to do the backslash to forward-slash conversion in his brain
16:16 agentzh kolibrie: sorry, i copied that directly from my win32 environment.
16:17 kolibrie no .o files, only on .c file: Judy.h.check.c
16:17 kolibrie s/on /one /
16:17 agentzh kolibrie: that .c file is under version control, right?
16:17 agentzh how about subdirectories JudyL and Judy1?
16:18 agentzh are there any .o files?
16:18 agentzh JudyL and Judy1 should not hold any .c files at all.
16:19 kolibrie JudyL and Judy1 have no .o nor .c files
16:19 agentzh yay!
16:19 agentzh so now do "make fast"
16:19 agentzh that is the last thing to test.
16:20 * kolibrie quickly makes
16:21 agentzh tell me the rev number displayed
16:21 kolibrie at the end, or somewhere in the output?
16:22 agentzh somewhere near the beginning
16:22 agentzh something like "Current version is 13436"
16:23 agentzh if you have missed that, then ingore that.
16:23 kolibrie Current version is 13450
16:23 agentzh thanks!
16:23 agentzh that is what i expected.
16:23 agentzh and the build is going smoothly?
16:23 svnbot6 r13451 | audreyt++ | * unTODO one passing test.
16:23 kolibrie so far so good
16:24 agentzh excellent
16:24 agentzh oh, audreyt is still in hacking mode.
16:24 agentzh 0:30 AM for her.
16:24 agentzh (for me too)
16:24 zgh joined perl6
16:25 * kolibrie only hacks between 05:00 and 20:00
16:25 agentzh kolibrie: have you seen the line "Compiling Pugs.Version"?
16:25 kolibrie haven't been watching
16:26 agentzh somewhere in the middle...
16:26 kolibrie it's on pugs-fps-0.7 right now, would that line be above that, or still to come
16:26 agentzh oh, below it!
16:27 agentzh you're still building prerequisites
16:27 * kolibrie is running on a slow machine today
16:27 agentzh :)
16:29 * agentzh has caught a bad cold and he is not very conscious atm.
16:30 kolibrie Configuring Pugs-6.2.12...
16:30 agentzh good
16:30 agentzh a short way to go.
16:31 agentzh kolibrie: you're building from scratch, right?
16:31 agentzh a typical "make fast" should take so long.
16:31 agentzh s/should/should NOT/
16:32 kolibrie agentzh: last build on this computer was at least a month ago
16:32 agentzh anyway, it's a more thorough test though much more time is required. :)
16:32 agentzh kolibrie++
16:33 kolibrie Compiling Pugs.Version      ( src/Pugs/Version.hs, dist/build/Pugs/Version.o )
16:33 agentzh right, that's it. :D
16:34 kolibrie glad I could help
16:35 agentzh so once you have built pugs, the test is successful completely. :)
16:35 agentzh kolibrie: thanks for your feedback!
16:36 kolibrie shucks, GHC's heap exhausted
16:36 agentzh kolibrie: after the build, run "make cleanjudy", and see if the .o and .c files are deteleted as expected.
16:36 agentzh kolibrie: simply rerun "make fast" from that point.
16:37 kolibrie thought so
16:37 fglock I'll need to workaround the overload error - I can't find any references to it in google
16:38 agentzh fglock: good luck! (although i can't help)
16:38 kolibrie fglock: I can maybe test something for you here after my build finishes
16:40 fglock kolibrie: I created a 'nomethod' to trace the problem - the stringification function is not being called at all
16:42 kolibrie fglock: anything I can help you with?  /me really doesn't understand what fglock is battling
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16:44 agentzh well, i can't stay up any more...kolibrie: simply report errors (if any) here. i'll backlog tomorrow.
16:44 fglock kolibrie: do you have v6.pm installed? try running perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6$ perl -It ../../t/xx-uncategorized/rule_recursive.t
16:44 kolibrie agentzh: ok
16:45 agentzh g'night everyone &
16:45 * agentzh waves
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16:45 fglock kolibrie: you will see errors like " Actual: 'Pugs::Runtime::Match=REF(0x8836228)' "
16:45 fglock because the Match object is not being stringified
16:47 kolibrie fglock: will try in a bit when my build is finished
16:47 kolibrie (all CPU and memory are being used)
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16:54 fglock clkao: ping
16:55 clkao fglock: pong
16:56 fglock clkao: any chance that Data::Bind changes overloading somehow?
16:57 clkao overloading?
16:57 clkao i don't recall overloading in data::bind
16:58 fglock clkao: did you see the error I mentioned above?
16:58 clkao no, looking
16:58 clkao which one?
16:59 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
17:00 fglock clkao: when you pass a Match object in '$got' to Test::report_failure(), the object can no longer stringify using overload
17:00 fglock but overload::Overloaded($got) reports that it is still overloaded
17:01 clkao uhm.  make a small test case so i can look at after dinner?
17:01 fglock ok
17:06 kolibrie agentzh: make cleanjudy left no .o files in Judy-1.0.3/src, and just that one .c file, but JudyL and Judy1 have lots of .c files
17:07 [particle] kolibrie: i think it's only important if those .c files *are not* in the repo (eg if they're generated)
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17:10 TreyHarris ajs: i wasn't earnestly making either assertion, i was just trying to figure out what ruoso was talking about and trying to provoke him to elaborate on his thoughts.
17:11 lambdabot TreyHarris: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:11 svnbot6 r13452 | agentz++ | [third-party/judy/Judy-1.0.3/src/Makefile.win32]
17:11 svnbot6 r13452 | agentz++ | - commented out CC= and COPT= since that will possibly
17:11 svnbot6 r13452 | agentz++ |   break other windows users' judy build.
17:11 svnbot6 r13452 | agentz++ | ([particle], Limbic_Region: please check if it works for
17:11 svnbot6 r13452 | agentz++ |  you. :))
17:11 TreyHarris @messages
17:11 lambdabot agentzh said 2h 49m 52s ago: the pugs -v rev number problem ought to have been solved.
17:11 kolibrie [particle]: they were not there before I did my make
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17:16 pasteling "fglock" at 200.17.89.34 pasted "possible overloading problem with Data::Bind" (27 lines, 728B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19799
17:18 lanny So here's a question.  I'm working on writing sort() in Perl 6.  My tests of that sort are unexpectedly succeeding because they are using the builtin sort().  Is there a way to turn off the builtin so my tests successfully fail?
17:18 pasteling "fglock" at 200.17.89.34 pasted "fixed test case - was "possible overloading problem with Data::Bind"" (27 lines, 729B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19800
17:19 fglock lanny: add a package name? like My::sort
17:20 [particle] lanny: you're writing in what language?
17:20 lanny Yeah.  Thought of naming it msort() (based on merge sort).
17:20 lanny I'm writing it in Perl 6.
17:20 fglock lanny or use it as a method: $self->sort()
17:20 [particle] and it's using the builtin perl6 sort?
17:20 fglock $self.sort then
17:20 lanny particle: yes.  lots of changes since I last commmited but t/unspecced/sort.t
17:21 [particle] why not override the sort op?
17:21 lanny The way it's defined in the synposis it's not an op.
17:21 fglock clkao: http://sial.org/pbot/19800 shows the problem
17:21 lambdabot Title: Paste #19800 from "fglock" at 200.17.89.34
17:21 mago joined perl6
17:21 Limbic_Region what am I supposed to check out if it works for me?
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17:22 clkao fglock: oki
17:22 fglock Limbic_Region: are you talking to me?
17:22 Limbic_Region no
17:22 lanny fglock: Thanks.  That would probably work given the Array:: and List:: definitions (i.e., $thing->sort()).
17:23 Limbic_Region [13:11] <svnbot6> r13452 | agentz++ | ([particle], Limbic_Region: please check if it works for you
17:23 Limbic_Region that's what I am talking about fglock
17:23 Limbic_Region agentzh ping
17:38 ajs lumi: thanks for helping me chase down that @*CHECK bug in -BPIR, but of course, it turns out to be only the FIRST of the errors. -BPIR is simply quite broken.
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17:53 svnbot6 r13453 | ajs++ | Add in @*CHECK for PIR backend. Can someone please verify this is correct?
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18:01 pasteling "ajs" at 63.107.91.99 pasted "r13453 regex error that wasn't happening yesterday" (29 lines, 964B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19802
18:01 ajs Anyone else seeing that/
18:01 ajs ?
18:08 ajs Oh freaky. I'm getting different results each time I run my regex example under v6
18:10 fglock ajs: looking
18:10 [particle] v6 builds up compiled mods as it goes, so the first few times may vary
18:10 [particle] (at least i've seen this before)
18:13 ajs [particle]: The main difference seemed to be between when I ran v6 from inside my pugs tree and when I ran it from outside, but then cding back into pugs yielded no change back
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18:19 fglock ajs: try this (works for me): perl -e 'use v6-alpha' - '  regex b { 1 }; "1" ~~ /<b>/;  $/.perl.say;  '
18:22 ajs Trying it
18:23 ajs still get: Can't locate object method "b" via package "Pugs::Grammar::Base" at (eval 121) line 7.
18:24 fglock ajs: there was a fix for this error yesterday, maybe reinstall v6 ?
18:25 ajs did
18:26 fglock it was "r13430 | fglock++ | v6.pm - added headers to allow rule definitions outside of grammars"
18:26 perlbot What kind of idiot karmas himself?  Your kind of idiot!
18:28 ajs Ah... ok, how do I install v6 from the tree instead of CPAN? Do I just CD into the perl5 subdirs and run make install? README says that's bad
18:28 fglock ajs: that should work
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18:47 svnbot6 r13454 | lanny++ | [t/unspecced/sort.t]
18:47 svnbot6 r13454 | lanny++ | - cleanup to better handle @by with traits
18:47 svnbot6 r13454 | lanny++ | - tests for most examples in http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/16578
18:47 lambdabot Title: nntp.perl.org - perl.perl6.language (16578), http://tinyurl.com/j9pt5
19:02 svnbot6 r13455 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - the Rule grammar now allows array and hash aliasing
19:02 svnbot6 r13456 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - comment out debugging info
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19:30 ajs fglock: README in perl5 should be updated with two things: 1) it's ok to install this stuff and 2) the order in which it should be installed. A Makefile would be awesome, but I'll settle for a README
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19:33 dduncan agentzh, fyi, I did a pull today, and a 'make' ... and the version is being updated, it seems ... make also rebuilt all of the Haskell
19:33 lambdabot dduncan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:34 dduncan hm, I'm going to have to learn how to leave messages on this system myself
19:34 dduncan I saw the backlog before coming here, fyi
19:36 [particle] @tell dduncan remember to use @tell <user> <message> to leave messages yourself
19:36 lambdabot Consider it noted.
19:36 [particle] scnr
19:36 dduncan whaddayagot?
19:36 lambdabot dduncan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:36 dduncan thatwhatyagot!
19:37 Limbic_Region and if you don't want the entire channel to know what you are telling <user>  use:  /msg lambdabot @tell <user> <msg>
19:37 dduncan figures
19:37 [particle] oh, i'm so glad you can msg lambtabot. it is a bit noisy.
19:37 TimToady of course, that doesn't help if they just say:
19:37 lambdabot TimToady: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:37 TimToady @messages
19:37 lambdabot agentzh said 5h 15m 32s ago: the pugs -v rev number problem ought to have been solved.
19:37 ajs fglock: Thanks for the help, updating to most recent v6 from the pugs tree helped
19:37 dduncan I knew before that you could use /msg syntax to private message anyone
19:38 fglock ajs: np
19:38 dduncan come to think of it ...
19:38 PerlJam lambdabot needs to be quieter.  Surely it can /msg  people?
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19:39 dduncan hm, I tried to /msg perlbot but it didn't work
19:39 dduncan useful to try out things without spammin the list
19:39 pasteling "ajs" at 63.107.91.99 pasted "build.sh script I ended up using in perl5 in case anyone cares" (11 lines, 320B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19805
19:41 TimToady I wonder what a build system in P6 would look like...
19:42 ajs use Build; my Build $doit .= new :universe<.>;
19:42 ajs ;)
19:43 TimToady your formulation seems to be missing the dependency info...
19:44 TimToady I'm trying not to use the "m" word here...
19:44 TimToady or the "nm" word, or the "gm" word...
19:44 TimToady or the "pm" word, for that matter.
19:44 [particle] @sources>>.build(@args);
19:44 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
19:48 dduncan yes, that's what it would look like
19:50 svnbot6 r13457 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule, Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - updated README files - ajs++
19:52 dduncan question: I understand that a number of large changes will go into the trunk or be made active following 6.2.13, for inclusion in 6.28.0, but what is the nature of those changes? ...
19:52 svnbot6 r13458 | fglock++ | v6 - update usage (pod)
19:52 dduncan eg, will there be some exposure of the metamodel to perl 6 code?
19:53 TimToady the metamodel is available via .HOW
19:53 dduncan oh, and with r13454, 'make' does update the reported version correctly
19:53 dduncan thank you agentzh
19:54 TimToady yes, but the problem with 'make' is that it's about 582 different programs...
19:55 dduncan I will now try another pull and see if it keeps working
19:56 dduncan regarding .HOW, yes that exists, but a bunch of useful functionality isn't there yet; eg, the likes of .attributes doesn't seem to be functional yet that I could see
19:56 dduncan so I wondered if fleshing this out was planned to come soon, or if it is being put off for awhile behind other things
19:57 TimToady that is the next step after this release is out, as far as I know.
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19:58 dduncan great!
19:58 [particle] also i believe, dropping support for ghc 6.4
19:58 TimToady *sniffle*
19:58 dduncan and I apologize if I have said anything that seems insensitive
19:59 dduncan over the last few days
19:59 TimToady and if you didn't, you don't?  :)
19:59 TimToady I have not perceived any perceived problem.
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20:00 dduncan I just said that because I didn't know if I unintentionally said anything that sounds too demanding ... while I never intend to make people angry, it can happen
20:01 dduncan oh, and the version stuff seems to be continuing to work!
20:01 dduncan my pugs -v reports: r13458
20:01 dduncan with a simple pull and make
20:04 dduncan on another matter, TimToady, thanks for the handwaving you added in [svn:perl6-synopsis] r12185 - that helps clear some things up
20:05 TimToady well, it's still full of holes...
20:05 dduncan re class naming
20:05 TimToady but what we're aiming for is something that's really neither name equiv nor struct equiv.
20:05 dduncan yes, but it brings out the idea that parameters can be taken into account when defining when a class is comparable to another
20:06 dduncan indeed
20:06 TimToady it's more like, are these provably generated from the same immutable raw materials?
20:06 TimToady if so, they're the same.
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20:06 TimToady which in a way is closer to structural typing.
20:07 TimToady but it's not duck typing, because that's accidental name collisions from differently generated types
20:07 dduncan well, I know what I was trying to achieve with my related request, but it is difficult for me to express or simply to know about the best way to achieve it
20:08 TimToady so maybe we need a new term, generative equivalence, or some such.
20:09 integral is now known as ntgrl
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20:10 dduncan fundamentally, the structures I'm trying to define are immutable and have immutable components, so it should fit into the immutable raw materials requirement
20:10 dduncan they are just restricted Mapping, really
20:10 dduncan though it would be nice to syntactically use the elements like class attributes
20:11 TimToady roles may be sufficiently immutable
20:11 dduncan yes
20:14 TimToady well, speaking of mutating, I need to mixin the Job role.
20:14 dduncan indeed
20:14 TimToady commutate &
20:15 dduncan good work day
20:29 TimToady & etatummoc
20:32 [particle] how symmetrical
20:39 fglock is there a way to make inheritance work in $obj->$method (p5)
20:39 svnbot6 r13459 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - implemented Matching against non-strings
20:39 svnbot6 r13459 | fglock++ |     my $rule = Pugs::Compiler::Regex->compile( '<.meth("param")>' );
20:39 svnbot6 r13459 | fglock++ |     my $match = $rule->match( $object );
20:47 clkao fglock: i can reproduce
20:48 fglock clkao: good
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21:01 svnbot6 r13460 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - implemented <at($pos)>
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21:09 fglock tomorrow is holiday !
21:11 Limbic_Region joined perl6
21:11 dakkar fglock: whre?
21:11 fglock dakkar: yes
21:11 SubStack joined perl6
21:12 dakkar ehm... that was a "where?" (my mistype)
21:12 fglock ah, where - Brazil :)
21:12 dakkar you see, I'm in the US at the moment, but I don't know the local holidays ;-) an unplanned day out of work would be gladly received ;-)
21:13 fglock sure - I just found out :)
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21:24 svnbot6 r13461 | fglock++ | Pugs-Compiler-Rule - fixed method dispatch problem while matching against non-strings
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21:58 svnbot6 r13462 | clkao++ | Make arg_bind work with overloaded objects.
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22:34 dduncan question: are we using "pass" for anything in Perl 6 right now (ignore the test suite)
22:35 dduncan if appropriate, that's my new suggestion for a renamed "grep"
22:35 dduncan as already posted to p6l
22:35 dduncan (some rationale given there)
22:37 dduncan left perl6
22:37 svnbot6 r13463 | putter++ | Common/backtrack_api.pl created.
22:37 svnbot6 r13463 | putter++ | 2006-09-19 - The idea here is Perl6::Compiler::Rule needs ranges
22:37 svnbot6 r13463 | putter++ | {n..m} and tailcalls implemented, and perhaps performance tuning.
22:37 svnbot6 r13463 | putter++ | The old regexp_spike code has these.  This file is a snapshot of
22:37 svnbot6 r13463 | putter++ | a quick attempt to strip the old code down to be easily used by
22:37 svnbot6 r13463 | putter++ | perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5,pm
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22:39 ludan re
22:40 putter joined perl6
22:42 putter fglock: ping?
22:42 lambdabot putter: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:42 nothingmuch hi putter
22:42 nothingmuch just in time ;-)
22:43 nothingmuch fwiw MO is just as comitter friendly as pugs except i don't need to know your email to give you a commit bit
22:43 avar Hmm, mm
22:43 nothingmuch you just need to have one ;-)
22:43 putter hi nm.  just sent you a :), but wrong channel. :/
22:44 avar It would be neat if Perl6 included a bug report module to make ${yourapp}bug programs
22:44 nothingmuch avar: i'd say that is definitely premature project management ;-)
22:44 putter re commit friendly, great.  likely wont happen before the weekend though.
22:44 avar Not at all, I think it would be neat in any language stdlib, nothing to do with Perl 6 as such
22:45 avar Well maybe not any stdlib, not C's for instance:
22:45 nothingmuch avar: it *does* have to do with whatever the ExtUtils::MakeMaker replacement will be
22:45 nothingmuch and it *should* be a plugin
22:45 avar nothingmuch: *In**deed*
22:45 * nothingmuch is just making fun of RFC language =)
22:46 nothingmuch fwiw, all it really needs is to send mail
22:46 TimToady to MicroSoft.
22:46 avar What's the best way to get into writing some of that stuff?
22:46 nothingmuch write a module to abstract SMTP and Sendmail with the same API
22:46 nothingmuch and write a wrapper that will try to send mail very hard, by using either this or that
22:46 avar nothingmuch: which subset of the api?
22:47 nothingmuch and the MX host from the target mail address unless it can learn who the host is from the system
22:47 nothingmuch neither
22:47 avar You want SMTP along with milter callbacks?
22:47 nothingmuch just $sender->sendit( $RFC2822 )
22:47 nothingmuch ick no
22:47 nothingmuch look at markov's stuff
22:47 nothingmuch it's slightly overengineered (too much effort, too much magic)
22:48 nothingmuch but in general it's a good start
22:48 avar Where's his stuff?
22:48 nothingmuch once you have that you just need a template and a command line module thingy
22:48 nothingmuch start with Mail::Box
22:48 nothingmuch and also look at Email::Simple
22:48 nothingmuch (which is arguably a little too simple)
22:48 nothingmuch and also talk with rjbs
22:48 nothingmuch (on irc.perl.org)
22:48 avar I don't want to do mail yet:)
22:48 nothingmuch he should be able to provide lots of insight on what needs to be done better for the p6 mail stuff
22:48 nothingmuch then what do you want?
22:49 avar For the purpose of this question I want to write Perl 6 modules, is it best to just commit them to pugs?
22:49 nothingmuch oh
22:49 nothingmuch yes =)
22:49 eden_c left perl6
22:49 nothingmuch do you have a commit bit?
22:50 avar yeah:)
22:50 nothingmuch okay, all set then =)
22:50 nothingmuch ext/
22:50 putter @tell fglock so the idea on backtrack_api is it's a helper class providing code strings which abstract the combining of backtrackting subs taking one (continuation) argument, and keep application state in local()s.  local()s tend to be faster than passing as args.  once in a form which requires little change from Emitter::Perl5.pm, we can try it and see.  Has ranges and tailcalls, and is well tested.
22:50 lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:50 avar But is there anything particular I should read besides the obvious? Like good examples of porting (and bad ones)?
22:50 nothingmuch @tell lambdabot it's a cool bot
22:50 lambdabot Nice try ;)
22:51 nothingmuch @botsnack
22:51 lambdabot :)
22:51 nothingmuch avar: there's a porting FAQ
22:51 nothingmuch and... err... just ask around for feedback
22:51 nothingmuch once you have code people can comment
22:51 avar yay:)
22:51 * avar goes crazy
22:51 nothingmuch the best thing to do is to not be shy
22:51 nothingmuch commit often, commit early
22:51 nothingmuch ^_^
22:52 nothingmuch anymoose, sleepy time
22:52 putter g'night &
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