Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-09-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:18 svnbot6 r13649 | lwall++ | Whacked on .slurp vs .lines doc.
00:18 svnbot6 r13649 | lwall++ | De-P5ified a bit of the IO doc.
00:19 weinig|away is now known as weinig
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01:22 svnbot6 r13650 | lwall++ | Some needed whacks on the regex tests.  (Yes, I realize the README says the
01:22 svnbot6 r13650 | lwall++ | file is copied over from pge, but we'll just have to backpatch the pge test.)
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01:34 TreyHarris in re earlier comments on object mutation:
01:34 TreyHarris ?eval class Foo { has $.a; method change ($o is rw:) { $o = Foo.new(:a("new")) } }; my $g = my $f = Foo.new(:a("old")); $f.change; say "{$g.a}:{$f.a}";
01:34 TreyHarris this is perfectly legal today, won't it continue to be?
01:35 TreyHarris hmmm... evalbot?
01:35 * TreyHarris pokes evalbot_r13627
01:35 TreyHarris ?eval 1
01:36 TreyHarris oh... evalbot is a way old rev, i take it its hung
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02:10 svnbot6 r13651 | fglock++ | [v6]
02:10 svnbot6 r13651 | fglock++ | - main package is 'Main'
02:10 svnbot6 r13651 | fglock++ | - added runtime Array & Hash classes
02:10 svnbot6 r13651 | fglock++ |  " my %x; my $a = %x; $a{1} = 42; say $a, $a.kv; "
02:10 svnbot6 r13651 | fglock++ |  " my @x; my $a = @x; $a[1] = 42; say $a, $a.kv, %($a.kv), $a.WHICH; "
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02:47 svnbot6 r13652 | fglock++ | [v6]
02:47 svnbot6 r13652 | fglock++ | - typed variable declarators - my Int $x
02:47 svnbot6 r13652 | fglock++ | - postcircumfix methods - .[] .() .<>
02:47 svnbot6 r13652 | fglock++ | - t/data_types/array.t passes 25/67; hash.t passes 53/57
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03:18 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
03:19 ajs_home did anyone get a chance to look at docs/Perl6/API/macros.pod? I based it on docs/notes/p6ast_draft, but it has a lot of questions embeded that need to be answered at some point.
03:24 ajs_home TreyHarris: amusingly your code in v6 produces: {Foo=HASH(0x9565500).a}:{Foo=HASH(0x9565500).a}
03:25 weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
03:25 ajs_home and "old:new" in my pugs
03:41 svnbot6 r13653 | audreyt++ | * Oops, yesterday's patch made :$x become ('$x'=>$x).
03:41 svnbot6 r13653 | audreyt++ |   This fixes it properly so it's (x=>$x) again.
03:42 revdiablo Hmm. Was there ever any resolution on the "find a better name for captures" conversation?
03:44 TimToady ahem.
03:44 revdiablo *cough*
03:44 lanny joined perl6
03:47 TimToady biab &
03:49 lanny Hmm.  Given the move to a real object system should Math-Random-Kiss be Int-Random-Kiss?
03:59 cj revdiablo: I was thinking about you the other day
03:59 cj revdiablo: how have you been?
04:00 cj "captures" sounds nice to me :)
04:00 revdiablo Well, putter was wondering if there was a better term. Didn't mean to sound disparaging, I just wondered if there was any further discussion about it.
04:01 bsb I think "Capture" was the answer to "find a better name for Arguments"
04:01 revdiablo cj: I've been ok. Could be better, could be worse, I guess. You?
04:03 cj revdiablo: pretty good.  wondering why I can't keep the money in my bank account
04:03 cj there are folks conspiring against me, I'm sure
04:03 cj like those darn hardware vendors!
04:03 revdiablo Ah yes. A lot of those people with their conspiracies, i think
04:05 cj finding new and more exciting ways that ie6 is broken.  it makes my life interesting in that old chinese verse way
04:16 audreyt @tell markstos passing hash into p5land and back now transparently works
04:16 lambdabot Consider it noted.
04:19 TimToady ⅋ p!ɐp
04:20 TimToady ⅋ pɐ!p even
04:20 audreyt wow :)
04:20 lambdabot audreyt: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
04:21 TimToady (: mom
04:21 audreyt lambdabot: @messages
04:21 lambdabot gaal said 10h 27m 12s ago: vardecl and particularly "my T ($x, $y)" doesn't use the Signature parser yet, does it? There are two items in the ChangeLog about this that may be misleading.
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05:02 audreyt @tell markstos to pass scalar as a ref into p5 land, use p5func(VAR $v); ditto for hash as p5func(VAR %h)
05:02 lambdabot Consider it noted.
05:06 svnbot6 r13654 | audreyt++ | * precompile.t: If the try{} fails, at least show what the error was.
05:06 svnbot6 r13655 | audreyt++ | * perl5/roundtrip.t: To pass a hash into a p5 subroutine,
05:06 svnbot6 r13655 | audreyt++ |   use one of the two ways:
05:06 svnbot6 r13655 | audreyt++ |     p5func(VAR %h);
05:06 svnbot6 r13655 | audreyt++ |     p5func(item %h);
05:06 svnbot6 r13655 | audreyt++ |   but never:
05:06 svnbot6 r13655 | audreyt++ |     p5func(%h);
05:06 svnbot6 r13655 | audreyt++ |   because all p5 funcs has a slurpy signature.
05:13 clkao VAR ? item ?
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05:21 svnbot6 r13656 | lwall++ | Tests and Prelude.pm implementation for .comb
05:22 audreyt clkao: item $foo is the new scalar $foo
05:22 clkao abd VAR?
05:22 audreyt VAR($x) is the scalar variable $x
05:22 audreyt not the content of $x
05:23 clkao oh good
05:23 audreyt perl5 doesn't quite have this concept... tied() comes a bit close
05:23 clkao which is the cause for data::bind / alias issues
05:23 TimToady which is why perl 6 has VAR instead.  :)
05:24 pasteling "lanny" at 128.107.248.220 pasted "Prim.ps -- srand" (4 lines, 162B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19968
05:24 lanny Hmm.  that should read Prim.hs.
05:24 TimToady what, it's not in PostScrpit?
05:24 TimToady *PostScript
05:24 lanny Never learned PostScript
05:24 TimToady me either.
05:25 TimToady must have been two other people.
05:25 lanny audreyt: What secret sauce do I need on the last line to turn the IO () into something op1 wants?
05:26 clkao so $foo := $bar is basiclly VAR($foo) = VAR($bar) right?
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05:37 audreyt lanny: return (castV True)
05:37 lanny audreyt++
05:37 audreyt assuming that's what srand always returns
05:38 audreyt clkao: no...
05:38 audreyt $foo = $bar
05:38 audreyt already means
05:38 audreyt VAR($foo) = $bar
05:38 lanny Should be as good as anything.  It might be interesting if it returned the current state so that you could go back to where you set a new srand() but interesting not necessarily useful.
05:39 TimToady temp srand;
05:43 svnbot6 r13657 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Eval: %hash.postcircumfix:<{ }>($key) now works.
05:43 lanny Ok.  Agreed.  But how to build the closure in Haskell on the True value returned is way beyond me.
05:44 TimToady what if %hash is multidim?
05:47 lanny No joy still.  setStdGen is :: StdGen -> IO () and op1 seems to be imposing 'EvalT (ContT Val (ReaderT Env SIO))'
05:50 audreyt lanny: liftIO
05:50 audreyt liftIO $ setStdGen ...
05:51 audreyt or guardIO if you are paranoid
05:51 audreyt but somehow I don't think setStdGen can throw IO error
05:51 audreyt TimToady: $key;$key;$key ?
05:51 TimToady maybe it should be .(\($key)) or something.
05:52 TimToady in case you want other non-subscripty options.
05:52 TimToady maybe
05:52 TimToady but there's always .slicemediceme(\($key)...) for that, I guess.
05:52 lanny guardIO doesn't work.  Tried it before I even came hat in hand.
05:53 audreyt define "doesn't work"...
05:53 audreyt did you put a $ ?
05:53 audreyt guardIO $ setStdGen...
05:53 lanny Of course.  But now it works.  :)  When I had it before the setStdGen as the return value it didn't though.
05:54 audreyt cool :)
05:54 lanny Very.  Deep magic but cool.
05:54 audreyt you'll get used to it pretty soon...
05:55 * audreyt is still fighting with SvNIOKp
05:55 audreyt clkao: I completed your t/perl5/* TODOs :)
05:55 lanny Ok.  Back to the drawing board.  It didn't actually give me an srand().
05:57 audreyt lanny: you need to fix "rand" as well
05:58 lanny I'm confused.  There is a rand in Prim.hs
05:58 audreyt getStdRandom (randomR (0, if x == 0 then 1 else x))
05:58 audreyt yes i mean that one
05:58 audreyt change the randomRIO part to the line above
05:59 lanny Will do.  I was getting from the docs though that setStdGen resets the one in the IO Monad that RandomRIO used.
05:59 audreyt very possibly so
06:00 audreyt $ ./pugs -e 'my $x = eval(q[sub { return $_[0] }], :lang<perl5>); say $x(123).WHAT'
06:00 audreyt Int
06:00 audreyt yay
06:01 TimToady ooh, shiney, except for the grubby bits...
06:07 lanny Are there other places I should declare srand().  Still giving 'no compatible subroutine found: "&srand"'
06:08 audreyt did you add it on the table below?
06:08 audreyt line 1812
06:09 lanny Nope.  :)  Didn't even bumble across that.
06:13 lanny Woot.  'Looks like 2 tests of 24 passed unexpectedly.'
06:17 audreyt that's my favourite diagnostics message :)
06:17 lanny Thanks once again for all your help, audreyt.  It's greatly appreciated.
06:20 audreyt thank _you_ for persisting :)
06:20 audreyt commit?
06:20 lanny Working it.  Just going back over Prim.hs to see if there were things I should have read first before bothering folks.
06:21 svnbot6 r13658 | audreyt++ | * Pugs/Perl5 embedding overhaul:
06:21 svnbot6 r13658 | audreyt++ |     Passing mutable Scalar, Hash, Array, Code, Pair and Handle objects
06:21 svnbot6 r13658 | audreyt++ |     into Perl 5 land now creates the correct tie() SVs there.
06:21 svnbot6 r13658 | audreyt++ |     ( To pass in a scalar, use the "func(VAR($x))" syntax.)
06:21 svnbot6 r13658 | audreyt++ | * Native values (Undef, IV, NV, PV) from Perl 5 land now occurs in
06:21 svnbot6 r13658 | audreyt++ |   Pugs land as native values, not doubly-boxed SV pointers.
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06:23 svnbot6 r13659 | audreyt++ | * Rework, unTODO and triage t/perl5/ a bit now we have a
06:23 svnbot6 r13659 | audreyt++ |   roundtrippable embed layer.
06:23 svnbot6 r13660 | lanny++ | [src/Pugs/Prim.hs]
06:23 svnbot6 r13660 | lanny++ | - added srand()
06:23 svnbot6 r13660 | lanny++ | [t/builtins/math/rand.t]
06:23 svnbot6 r13660 | lanny++ | - removed :todo from srand() tests
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06:29 bsb TimToady: re: processing big YAML files, IO::YAML++ for streaming yaml in perl5
06:29 bsb needs a stream of independent docs though
06:30 lanny Goodnight, all.
06:32 audreyt libyaml also streams
06:32 audreyt syck can stream too but I havn't got a round tuit... in anycase ingy's pyyaml port will provide it
06:43 bsb go ingy!
06:51 webmind streaming yaml ? yay :)
06:53 svnbot6 r13661 | lwall++ | More p6regex tweaks.
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07:03 gaal streaming syck is required for streaming .yaml/eval :lang<yaml>, but not sufficient
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07:10 svnbot6 r13662 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.AST.Internals: Repair "make ghci".
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07:14 svnbot6 r13663 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: $() now means $$/, @() means @$/, %() means %$/, etc.
07:14 svnbot6 r13664 | audreyt++ | * Do not parse @<< in this release -- only consider |<<.
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07:41 svnbot6 r13665 | lwall++ | t/02-test-pm/1-basic.t: :perl5{pat} should be :P5 {pat}
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07:54 mugwump ?eval all(1,2,3,4) =:= one(1,2,3,4)
07:54 mugwump ?eval all(1,2,3,4) == one(1,2,3,4)
07:54 * mugwump humbugs
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08:38 audreyt ?eval 1
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08:51 svnbot6 r13666 | audreyt++ | * srand(): Generate the default seed only if there's no incoming seed.
08:54 svnbot6 r13667 | audreyt++ | * Do not clear away "sub f { state &x ::= sub {... } }"
08:54 svnbot6 r13667 | audreyt++ |   upon closure cloning and re-entry.
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10:10 svnbot6 r13668 | audreyt++ | * perl5/exception_handling.t: Another rx:Perl5{} typo.
10:10 svnbot6 r13668 | audreyt++ |   I wonder if this warrants a special warning or something...
10:10 svnbot6 r13669 | audreyt++ | * scope.t: Fix incorrect plan number.
10:13 svnbot6 r13670 | audreyt++ | * short_circuit.t: Now that I've committed some smartlinkable
10:13 svnbot6 r13670 | audreyt++ |   text to S03, this no longer needs to link to E03...
10:13 svnbot6 r13671 | audreyt++ | * "sub f ($x is lazy) {...}" is now guaranteed to not evaluate
10:13 svnbot6 r13671 | audreyt++ |   its argument more than once.
10:13 svnbot6 r13671 | audreyt++ | * Switch chained comparison such as "1 > 2 > die('not reached')
10:14 svnbot6 r13671 | audreyt++ |   to use "is lazy" parameters, so they can short-circuit properly.
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10:41 svnbot6 r13672 | audreyt++ | * In chain comparison, force the thunk before going into the actual
10:41 svnbot6 r13672 | audreyt++ |   infix comparator, so this can work correctly:
10:41 svnbot6 r13672 | audreyt++ |     1 === 1 === 1
10:41 svnbot6 r13673 | audreyt++ | * Be very paranoid and don't assume that TVar is (void *) underneath.
10:41 svnbot6 r13674 | audreyt++ | * In "$x =:= $x", take advantage of the built-in pointer
10:41 svnbot6 r13674 | audreyt++ |   stringification of mutable cells to derive a more accurate =:=.
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11:02 svnbot6 r13675 | audreyt++ | * Oops, forceThunk was ran too early and undid the short-circuiting code.
11:02 svnbot6 r13675 | audreyt++ |   This should Fix It For Real.
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11:05 cmarcelo audreyt: ahoy
11:06 weinig joined perl6
11:07 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
11:08 audreyt cmarcelo: heya
11:08 nothingmuch audreyt: MO might get delayed, my lapto pis dying
11:08 nothingmuch yay apple
11:08 audreyt oh noes
11:09 nothingmuch at least i got one repair within the warranty period
11:09 audreyt versus 0 for me
11:09 nothingmuch (this one won't be, and i'm 90% sure it's a hardware issue because the freezes continue even when booted from a rescue cd)
11:09 nothingmuch well, i *was* being cynical
11:09 nothingmuch and I'm not nearly as bad as you
11:09 nothingmuch you're special ;-)
11:09 audreyt $?AUDREYT
11:10 audreyt anymoose, you turned it in to repair?
11:10 nothingmuch not yet
11:10 nothingmuch that's a 1.5 hour drive
11:10 audreyt ah. k
11:10 nothingmuch and i'm reluctant to do so till absolutely sure
11:10 audreyt triaging is going quite well
11:10 nothingmuch because they will happily fry my disk
11:10 audreyt strangely I don't think I have any questions re ::Overview
11:10 nothingmuch okies
11:11 audreyt oh? surely you can dd it out first, or let them use another hd
11:11 nothingmuch if i can get it into fw disk mode (haven't tried yet, that's the next step)
11:11 audreyt probablyy can
11:11 nothingmuch last time i couldn't ;-)
11:11 audreyt oy :)
11:11 audreyt maybe you are special after all...
11:12 nothingmuch maybe i'll get $boss to buy me a new one
11:12 nothingmuch stevan: $boss, ya hear?
11:12 nothingmuch after all, it *is* already 1.5 years old
11:12 nothingmuch well, 1.24
11:12 nothingmuch 1.25
11:13 cmarcelo audreyt: (away lately because $job is pushing =P) re: H.Hash in Pugs.Internals... although most tests works with H.Hash it seems a little unstable since now and then some tests starts to breakdown (segfault, segfault at the end etc). the last timing comparison I taken the ratio is about 0.94 (trimming the unicode hack). maybe pushing some new and more "hardcore" tests to HsJudy/t will be more helpful now...
11:14 audreyt indeed
11:14 audreyt segfault at the end is the most commonly observed one
11:15 audreyt whew, down to <700 subtests fail again (and it won't get any higher than this)
11:15 audreyt still 90 test files to go...
11:17 audreyt @tell TimToady why is [,]() specced to Array not Seq? also, any(1,1,1) ~~ {...} can't function as grep to return (1,1,1), can it? or is the any() not actually invoking &any here?
11:17 lambdabot Consider it noted.
11:21 cmarcelo audreyt: besides the Judyness, any Hs task floating around that I could try? or suggestion where I should begin reading/"groking" the sources? :)
11:23 audreyt well, there's a quite independent-of-the-upcoming-release task
11:24 audreyt darcs get http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/MO
11:24 audreyt read MO::Overview and tests
11:24 lambdabot Title: Index of /MO
11:24 audreyt and see if we can work out a straight Hs port
11:24 audreyt which does not need to use any existing pugs code
11:25 audreyt and then hook it into the capture convention
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11:29 cmarcelo thanks. i'll check it out. but, what you mean by "hook it into the cap conv"? :o)
11:32 audreyt there's this docs/Perl6/FAQ/Capture.pod that serves as a somewhat gentle intro to captures
11:32 audreyt we're currently halfway switching from the old calling convention that takes a list of posisional and a map of nameds
11:33 audreyt into a new calling convention that takes a Capture, which contains multiple feeds, which each contains positionals and nameds, and each name can refer to multiple values
11:33 pasteling "cmarcelo" at 200.232.236.136 pasted "error in darcs get" (15 lines, 908B) at http://sial.org/pbot/19971
11:33 audreyt nothingmuch: see the paste
11:34 audreyt you have a 403 on your _darcs
11:36 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
11:36 audreyt TimToady: +^0 is -1 on the spec, but ~0 is 4294967295 on perl5. is -1 correct?
11:36 audreyt @tell TimToady +^0 is -1 on the spec, but ~0 is 4294967295 on perl5. is -1 correct?
11:36 lambdabot Consider it noted.
11:41 audreyt cmarcelo: oh well. get from http://perlcabal.org/~audreyt/tmp/MO/ isntead
11:41 lambdabot Title: Index of /~audreyt/tmp/MO
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11:46 cmarcelo audreyt: it worked. tks. i'll read this stuff then..
11:47 audreyt @pl  \jtyp -> return . VJunc $ MkJunc jtyp Set.empty Set.empty
11:47 lambdabot return . VJunc . (. (empty Set . empty)) . flip MkJunc Set
11:47 audreyt cmarcelo++
11:49 cmarcelo :) .. gotta go! bbiab (hopefully with questions :o) &
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12:06 svnbot6 r13676 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Eval: Squash a warning.
12:09 svnbot6 r13677 | audreyt++ | * Add the negation forms, such as [!==] [!eqv], to foldable operators.
12:10 audreyt for some reason haskell won another ICFP for the third year now...
12:14 gaal didn't BASIC have something to do with it...?
12:14 xerox audreyt: yarrr!
12:14 * xerox slaps gaal around a bit with a large VB 9.0
12:16 svnbot6 r13678 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim.List: Add support for list-associative reductions, such as [|].
12:16 svnbot6 r13678 | audreyt++ | * Also added identity values for the builtin reduceable operators from S03.
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12:21 gaal xerox: don't dis, yo. there actually was basic in this challenge.
12:21 svnbot6 r13679 | audreyt++ | * Vain attempt to silence 6.4 compilation error
12:22 xerox gaal: yeah, I know.  There's a video on video.google.com of this year's icfp presentation.
12:22 gaal `ghc 2> /dev/null`
12:22 gaal ooh!
12:22 xerox You should watch it, it's very funny.  a bit shakey, but very funny.
12:22 * gaal goes to watch that
12:22 audreyt xerox: url?
12:22 xerox @where icfpcontest-video
12:22 lambdabot I know nothing about icfpcontest-video.
12:22 xerox @where icfpcontest
12:22 lambdabot I know nothing about icfpcontest.
12:22 xerox @where icfp-video
12:22 lambdabot I know nothing about icfp-video.
12:22 svnbot6 r13680 | audreyt++ | * unTODO =:= nonbug
12:22 xerox Gnnnhhhhkkk..
12:22 gaal @google video icfp video
12:22 lambdabot http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6419094369756184531
12:22 lambdabot Title: ICFP programming contest 2006 results - Google Video
12:22 gaal er
12:22 xerox @google icfp site:video.google.com
12:22 gaal heh.
12:22 lambdabot http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6419094369756184531
12:22 lambdabot Title: ICFP programming contest 2006 results - Google Video
12:22 xerox hehe
12:24 gaal wow terrible video quality
12:24 svnbot6 r13681 | audreyt++ | * Even more GHC 6.4 voodoo...
12:33 svnbot6 r13682 | audreyt++ | * More GHC 6.4 voodoo...
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12:38 SamB gaal: yeah, I heard it was 15 fps with a keyframe once in a blue moon
12:38 audreyt ?eval 1 > 2 > die(3)
12:38 evalbot_r13682 Bool::False
12:39 xerox hehe, but it's okay.
12:45 audreyt wow, D took second place.
12:46 audreyt indeed D is a good VM language :)
12:48 xerox hehe
12:48 xerox 1st. 2D, 2nd. D, I was especting 3rd. 1/2 D or something.
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13:13 svnbot6 r13683 | fglock++ | v6 - t/data_types/array.t passes all tests
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14:04 svnbot6 r13684 | audreyt++ | * Implement hyperfold and hyperscan: [>>+<<] and [\>>+<<].
14:07 ajs_work "Implement hyperfold and hyperscan" ... should I be readying the away team?
14:09 audreyt lol
14:09 * audreyt beams ajs_work down
14:10 ajs_work no, I'm wearing a red shirt!!!!
14:10 [particle] perhaps \ . should be called hyperspace
14:10 audreyt it's somewhat dangerous to wear a red shirt in .tw noawdays...
14:10 audreyt can get random maimed on street
14:11 ajs_work ouch!
14:11 obra yikes
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15:01 Southen_ is now known as Southen
15:06 ajs_work ?eval class A { has $.x; } my $y = \(:x<1>); my A $z .= new(|$y);
15:06 evalbot_r13682 is now known as evalbot_r13684
15:06 evalbot_r13684 Error: Must only use named arguments to new() constructor Be sure to use bareword keys.
15:17 audreyt *nod* |$y is currently noop outside capture literals
15:17 justatheory joined perl6
15:32 svnbot6 r13685 | lanny++ | [t/builtins/math/rand.t]
15:32 svnbot6 r13685 | lanny++ | - srand test demonstrating edge condition
15:43 ludan joined perl6
15:50 ofer1 is now known as eval
15:50 eval is now known as ofer0
15:51 kanru joined perl6
15:54 TimToady audreyt: Int has an infinite number of bits, so -1 is the only way currently to indicate that they're all 1.  Plus using the sign bit for this allows us to have bitmasks that are all 1 above the biggest bit we care about, assuming an infinite 2's complement notation.
15:54 lambdabot TimToady: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:54 TimToady @messages
15:54 lambdabot audreyt said 2d 2h 54m 34s ago: Maybe sub (\$x) {...} is now sub (*|x) {...} for consistency?
15:54 lambdabot audreyt said 2d 2h 53m 40s ago: That will also play well with |<< replacing [,], effectively making \ thec constructor and | the destructor
15:54 lambdabot audreyt said 2d 1h 44m 11s ago: I wonder if scalar(1) makes a mutable scalar and item(1) makes simply 1...
15:54 lambdabot audreyt said 4h 36m 59s ago: why is [,]() specced to Array not Seq? also, any(1,1,1) ~~ {...} can't function as grep to return (1,1,1), can it? or is the any() not actually invoking &any here?
15:54 lambdabot audreyt said 4h 18m 5s ago: +^0 is -1 on the spec, but ~0 is 4294967295 on perl5. is -1 correct?
15:55 elmex joined perl6
15:57 TimToady [,]() is specced to Array because [\,] is supposed to return List of Array, and if Seq are like parentheses then they interpolate into lists.
15:58 TimToady I think any() transmutes to something else when participating in a boolean in list context.
15:59 TimToady we're basically trying to mimic English with junctions, not set theory.
16:02 TimToady but we could use something else than a junction there.
16:03 TimToady @x = each(@foo) < 20; comes to mind
16:03 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
16:03 TimToady Maybe I did't.
16:03 TimToady *didn't
16:03 TimToady @tell agentzh yes, you can use that picture
16:03 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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16:05 audreyt TimToady: infinite number of bits... what is +^1 then?
16:06 TimToady the sign just tells you what all the upper bits are. that's just -2
16:06 audreyt aha.
16:06 TimToady arbitrary precision 2's complement
16:08 TimToady maybe I just don't understand how Seq behaves, and we need different notation to avoid confusion with the autoflattening list parens.
16:09 TimToady but I can pretty much guarantee that most P5 programs won't get the distintion between Array and Seq at all.
16:09 TimToady *distinction
16:09 TimToady *programmers
16:10 TimToady (and programs :)
16:12 TimToady perl -le 'print +((1),(1,2),(1,2,3))'
16:12 TimToady 112123
16:13 TimToady ?eval [\,] 1,2,3
16:13 evalbot_r13684 is now known as evalbot_r13685
16:13 evalbot_r13685 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&prefix:[\,]"
16:14 mauke_ joined perl6
16:14 TimToady ?eval say ((1),(1,2),(1,2,3))
16:14 audreyt tests... welcome :)
16:14 evalbot_r13685 OUTPUT[112123 ] Bool::True
16:18 TimToady unfortunately $job ~~ 37`MB
16:18 audreyt hm, sleep sounds like a good idea now
16:19 TimToady smoke just finished...
16:19 wolverian MiB? :)
16:19 TimToady sophistry
16:20 TimToady yay, for first time in history passed > 12000 tests.
16:20 wolverian I just think it'd be nice to have constant prefixes
16:20 wolverian or prefixes in general...
16:21 TimToady in this particular case I determined the size by visually dividing by 10**6, not by 2**20, so it really is MB
16:21 Psyche^ joined perl6
16:22 wolverian ah.
16:22 TimToady though to be precise, it's $job ~~ (37..^38)`MB
16:22 TimToady hmm
16:23 TimToady you can't say int($job) ~~ 37`MB
16:23 TimToady if you don't know what units $job is in.
16:23 wolverian if you do, it can survive int(), right?
16:24 TimToady but suppose $job though it was in GB or KB?
16:24 TimToady *thought
16:24 * [particle] hopes $job is in USD/hr units
16:25 obra [particle]: actually USD/annum
16:25 wolverian surely you can make 10`MB ~~ 10`KB compare smartly
16:25 [particle] sux if you work half a year ;)
16:25 TimToady if I was actually paid for the hours I work directly for the company, I'd be a lot poorer than I am.
16:26 TimToady does 10`MB ~~ 10_001`KB?
16:26 TimToady what's the desired precision?
16:26 wolverian omega :)
16:27 wolverian let ~~ take :precision
16:27 * wolverian shrugs
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16:27 TimToady hmm, I'd tend to say the precision should be specified by the pattern on the right.
16:28 TimToady so 10`MB ~~ 10_001`KB would be false, but 10_001`KB ~~ 10`MB would be true.
16:28 theorbtwo Asymmetric ~~ has always seemed a bit odd to me, but it's already in plenty of other places.
16:29 mauke_ is now known as mauke
16:29 wolverian that sounds sane
16:29 TimToady "100000" ~~ /^10/
16:29 TimToady well, units probably aren't for 6.0.0 anyway...
16:30 TimToady prolly just comes in with "use units <MB KB>"
16:30 wolverian use SI?
16:30 TimToady "use units :SI"
16:31 TimToady use units * to get everything the units database defines
16:31 wolverian yay.
16:31 TimToady use * to do path search for any unknown function.
16:31 * theorbtwo ponders, again, writing a sane tied units module for p5.
16:31 TimToady *; to preload everything in a PHP fashion (non strict only)
16:32 wolverian all(*)("multiverse");
16:32 TimToady why restrict it to the multiverse?
16:32 wolverian my imagination fails.
16:33 wolverian ah, I see.
16:33 TimToady I have wondered what *(...) returns though...
16:33 wolverian all(*)(*);
16:33 TimToady "just call something with these arguments."
16:33 wolverian closest MMD match .... erm. needs a tie breaker.. most used wins? ;)
16:34 TimToady maybe that's call(...)
16:35 TimToady should probably reserve *(...) for some kind of modified Whatever though.
16:35 TimToady *(grep { not /fnord/ })
16:36 TimToady actually, if * is a type then *($x) just means "cast to whatever".
16:37 audreyt @result = any(@x) ~~ {...}
16:37 TimToady probably meaning search all available explicit casts and do it implicitly.
16:37 TimToady hmm?
16:37 audreyt @result = (item any(@x)) ~~ {...}
16:37 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
16:37 audreyt currently evaluates differently, right?
16:38 audreyt s/item/$_=/
16:38 audreyt # also that
16:38 audreyt I'm just wondering which macro is responsible for this
16:40 audreyt the chained-comparison rewriter seems most natural, as it's a runtime thing that can respond to context
16:40 audreyt in which case it doesn't have to be an any() expression
16:40 audreyt merely something that evaluates to a Any junction
16:40 audreyt on the other hand, it doesn't play well with short-circuiting
16:41 audreyt for 1 > 2 > something_evaluating_to_any_list() { ... }
16:41 audreyt does the loop get a False, or an empty list?
16:41 TimToady we could limit it to first two terms, I suppose...
16:43 * [particle] wonders about (*|*) and (*&*)
16:43 audreyt and in item context, this magick disappears?
16:43 TimToady this is kinda inside-out in the same way that autothreading parameters are...
16:44 TimToady (*⅋*)
16:44 audreyt ?eval (1|3) < (2|4)
16:44 evalbot_r13685 ((Bool::False | Bool::True) | (Bool::True))
16:44 audreyt in list context that will become (1, 3) ?
16:45 TimToady presumably.
16:45 audreyt hm, junctive autothreading doesn't work well with short circuiting in general
16:46 audreyt because short-circuit delays evaluation, but junction demand full evaluation because later arguments can usurp earler ones if it's conjunction
16:46 audreyt /injunction
16:47 gaal what's injunction?
16:47 TimToady in boolean context (1|3) < (2|4) can conceivably be quite lazy
16:48 TimToady none(), I think
16:48 gaal ah, makes sense.
16:48 audreyt right. conjunction is all()
16:48 audreyt what I mean is
16:48 TimToady I forget one()
16:48 gaal what's one()
16:48 gaal ?
16:48 audreyt abjunction
16:48 audreyt one(...) < one(...) < all(...)
16:49 audreyt here all() must actualy be wrapped on the outside
16:49 audreyt all( (one(...) < one(...) < allElem1), (one(...) < one(...) < allElem2), ...)
16:50 audreyt but short circuit says in A < B < C
16:50 TimToady *nod*
16:50 audreyt evaluate C only if A < B is true
16:50 audreyt and so currently we fail miserably...
16:50 audreyt ?eval one(1,2) < one(3,4) < all(5,6)
16:51 evalbot_r13685 Error: Cannot cast from VJunc all(VInt 5,VInt 6) to Double (VNum)
16:51 TimToady I think we say that chained is allowed to short-circuit in any order, and don't use side effects?
16:51 gaal By abstriction this fungus makes spores: / The sporophore coyly ignores / The septum, whose growing / (Like biblical knowing) / Shears spores, then rolls over and snores.
16:51 gaal # abstriction is a synonym of abjunction
16:51 gaal # found here: http://www.oedilf.com/db/Lim.php/?Word=abjunction
16:51 audreyt short-circuit in any order?
16:51 lambdabot Title: OEDILF - Word Lookup, http://tinyurl.com/qhjkt
16:51 audreyt not sure what it means... you mean
16:51 audreyt one(1,2) < one(3,4) < die("horribly")
16:51 audreyt is allowed to die horribly?
16:52 audreyt 1 > 2 > die("horribly")
16:53 rindolf joined perl6
16:53 rindolf Hi all.
16:53 rindolf ingy: here?
16:54 ingy hi rindolf
16:54 ingy maybe I should just give rindolf my phone number... ;)
16:55 rindolf Hi ingy
16:55 rindolf ingy: you still haven't updated IO::All.
16:55 ingy rindolf: you are correct
16:56 rindolf ingy: does it have an svn repository?
16:56 ingy yes
16:56 ingy do you want commit access?
16:57 ingy msg me: htpasswd -bc dev/tty userid passwd
16:57 rindolf ingy: OK.
16:57 svnbot6 r13686 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed Type x keyword
16:57 ingy if you prepare the release, I'll upload it
16:57 ingy :D
17:03 rindolf ingy: did you receive my /msg ?
17:05 rodi joined perl6
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17:35 rindolf ingy: ping.
17:35 ofer0 ping reply
17:36 svnbot6 r13687 | audreyt++ | * Junctional autothreading in chained comparisons now works
17:36 svnbot6 r13687 | audreyt++ |   again, but they take effect localally -- i.e.,
17:36 svnbot6 r13687 | audreyt++ |     any(@a) < any(@b) < all(@c)
17:36 svnbot6 r13687 | audreyt++ |   still doesn't evaluate all(@c) if the first comparison
17:36 svnbot6 r13687 | audreyt++ |   evaluates to False.
17:36 justatheory karma audreyt
17:36 jabbot justatheory: audreyt has karma of 1507
17:41 obra karma perl6
17:41 jabbot obra: perl6 has karma of 2
17:41 obra perl6++
17:42 rodi karma obra
17:42 jabbot rodi: obra has karma of 14
17:42 [particle] perl6 += karma(audreyt)
17:43 theorbtwo karma p6
17:43 jabbot theorbtwo: p6 has neutral karma
17:43 theorbtwo perl6++
17:44 rodi karma rodi
17:44 jabbot rodi: rodi has karma of 21
17:44 rodi rodi--
17:44 rodi karma rodi
17:44 jabbot rodi: rodi has karma of 20
17:44 rodi ouch!
17:44 rodi man, I'm an idiot.  rodi--
17:44 rodi oops!
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17:49 TimToady audreyt: I think that's probably incorrect if the middle term resolves to two non-intersecting sets, one of which makes the left true and the other of which makes the right true.
17:49 TimToady my feeling is that junctional logic trumps short-circuiting behavior in chained ops.
17:50 TimToady and the entire chain (or at least the subchain extending from the first junction to the last) must be evaluated as a single threaded function.
17:51 TimToady 7 < any(1..10) < 3 must return false, in other words
17:53 TimToady the promise of a junction that you don't care about side effects needs to be stronger than the promise of order of execution in this case.
17:57 buetow joined perl6
17:57 TimToady basically, declarative trumps imperative here.
17:58 [particle] ...while logical hides in the corner, whispering to oo.
17:59 * rodi WOPs in the other corner.
18:00 rodi The named assertions in doc/Perl6/Overview/Rule.pod are (mostly) implemented in Pugs, and (mostly) not listed in S05.  Some have tests in t/ and some don't.  Is any of these more "official"?  Should I assume the superset?
18:00 audreyt TimToady: uhm, any() in 2nd position is fine
18:00 audreyt but what about
18:01 audreyt 2 < 3 < this_returns_some_junction();
18:01 audreyt or do you say that we hardcode on &any etc?
18:01 audreyt i.e have
18:01 audreyt 2 < 3 < any(...)
18:01 audreyt behave differently from
18:01 audreyt 2 < 3 < try { any(...) }
18:01 audreyt ?
18:02 audreyt (s/2 < 3/3 < 2/ as needed)
18:02 audreyt 3 < 2 < any(die(1))
18:02 audreyt if that should die instead of returning false
18:02 audreyt how do I tell that apart from
18:02 audreyt 3 < 2 < do { any(die(1)) }
18:02 audreyt ?
18:04 KingDiamond joined perl6
18:05 TimToady I think relying on side effects in chained ops is probably erroneous in general.
18:05 beppu_ joined perl6
18:05 TimToady on the any in list context, how 'bout instead we use those():
18:05 TimToady for those(@foo) < 32 {...}
18:06 audreyt hm. so maybe chained ops evaluates all their arguments anyway
18:06 audreyt which aids MMD as well
18:07 TimToady we have other ways to ensure short-circuiting behavior
18:07 audreyt and then the A03/E03/S03 passage on short circuit gets dropped?
18:07 audreyt 3 < 2 and 2 < do {...}
18:07 audreyt which makes it clear that junctions doesn't even enter the picture here
18:07 rindolf Hi audreyt, TimToady
18:08 TimToady I think that's a good conservative position, though if we guarantee all are evaluated people will probably start depending on that too, sigh...
18:08 rindolf ingy: ping.
18:08 audreyt or we spec that in
18:08 audreyt 3 < 2 > all()
18:08 audreyt it's two functions with 2 args each
18:09 audreyt not one with weird redispatching
18:09 audreyt and so it's strictly equiv to
18:09 audreyt 3 < 2 and memoized_2 > all
18:09 audreyt and so junctive autothreading doesn't enter the picture here
18:09 TimToady only if we can be sure to unify the middle to the same value.
18:09 audreyt yup. it's as currently implemented
18:10 TimToady so 7 < any(1..10) < 3 will fail?
18:11 audreyt in that particular case
18:11 audreyt it fails no matter how we evaluate it...
18:11 TimToady depends on whether you consider any(1..10) to be a memoizable value
18:11 TimToady 7 < any(1..10) and any(1..10) < 3 is true
18:11 rindolf nothingmuch: here?
18:12 audreyt ah. indeed
18:12 TimToady those need to be quantumly entangled
18:12 audreyt ?eval 7 < any(1..10) < 3
18:13 evalbot_r13685 is now known as evalbot_r13687
18:13 evalbot_r13687 (Bool::False)
18:13 TimToady good
18:14 TimToady hmm, I wonder if those() gets us list comprehensions
18:15 audreyt good, I think stepwise juncapply is very safe
18:15 audreyt in any A cmp B cmp C
18:15 audreyt I mean, for all A cmp B cmp C
18:15 audreyt if B is a junction, then it threads over A and C correctly
18:16 audreyt it's just we don't get nonlocal behaviour
18:16 audreyt namely if C is a none()/all(), it still doesn't execute if AcmpB turns out to be False
18:17 foo\ joined perl6
18:19 PerlJam TimToady: @Larry still has the weekly cabal call, right?  Why don't you guys just use IRC like they do for #parrotsketch?  Everyone (now) uses IRC.
18:20 PerlJam (just curious)
18:23 audreyt sometimes voiceband is more efficient for nontechnical design sessions...
18:24 TimToady And TheDamian is the counterexample to your assertion that Everyone (now) uses IRC.
18:28 TimToady and to amplify audreyt's point frankly, sometimes there is benefit in off-the-record conversations when the goal is to understand a situation without inflaming it.
18:29 TimToady this can, of course, be abused...
18:36 audreyt wow, 2:36am. and to think I need to be up in <7hr...
18:36 * audreyt vanishes in a puff of logic &
18:36 TimToady nighty-night.
18:36 xerox_ haha
18:37 xerox_ > fix ("meta-"++) ++ "genious" -- the puff of logic.
18:37 lambdabot "meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-...
18:37 TimToady 8 < $audrey < 7
18:40 Juerd $audrey's a junction?
18:42 [particle] consortiums are like junctions
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18:55 svnbot6 r13688 | fglock++ | v6 - implemented $array.map()
18:55 * rindolf pokes ingy
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19:01 TreyHarris so is syn r12432 correct or not?  does 1 > $x++ > 2 increment $x once, or twice?
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19:17 TimToady ?eval my $x; 1 > $x++ > 2; say $x
19:17 evalbot_r13687 is now known as evalbot_r13688
19:17 evalbot_r13688 OUTPUT[1 ] Bool::True
19:18 TimToady ?eval my $x = 1; say 1 == $x++ == 1
19:18 evalbot_r13688 OUTPUT[1 ] Bool::True
19:19 kyrbe joined perl6
19:21 rindolf I wonder where ingy has disappeared to.
19:21 c6rbon joined perl6
19:32 svnbot6 r13689 | fglock++ | [Pugs-Compiler-Rule]
19:32 svnbot6 r13689 | fglock++ | - added Pugs::Grammar::RulePure - pure-Perl6 version of the Rule grammar;
19:32 svnbot6 r13689 | fglock++ | - this file currently can't be run due to PCR/v6 incompatible calling conventions
19:38 svnbot6 r13690 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed Data::Bind calling convention in $a.map(->{...})
19:40 TreyHarris TimToady: yes, i know that it works that way today... but it sounded like from your and audreyt's discussion a bit ago that 1 > $x++ > 2 evaluating as 1 > $x++ and $x++ > 2 was on the table as a possibility (making 1 > $x++ >= 1 potentially true...)
19:46 larsen joined perl6
19:46 svnbot6 r13691 | fglock++ | v6 - added .yaml method to Pugs::Runtime::Perl5Container hash & array
19:46 * TreyHarris & # commute
19:52 svnbot6 r13692 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed hash sigil in last commit
19:52 svnbot6 r13693 | lanny++ | * srand(): don't default_seed_algorithm() unless no argument
19:52 svnbot6 r13693 | lanny++ | * rand.t: put in a couple of srand(0) tests.
19:56 weinig|away is now known as weinig
20:11 ingy rindolf: here
20:11 rindolf ingy: hi
20:11 ingy I was $working...
20:11 rindolf ingy: I see.
20:12 rindolf ingy: well, I /msg'ed you the htpasswd output
20:13 rindolf ingy: ping
20:14 ingy rindolf: you are set to jet
20:14 ingy afaict
20:14 rindolf ingy: URL?
20:14 ingy oh
20:14 ingy http://svn.kwiki.org/ingy/IO-All
20:14 lambdabot Title: Revision 2888: /IO-All
20:15 rindolf ingy: OK.
20:16 ingy rindolf: thanks. sorry for being so ingish
20:16 rindolf ingy: is there anyway to create tags or branches there?
20:16 ingy not yet
20:17 ingy use svk :P
20:18 rindolf ingy: a few of the tests fail.
20:19 rindolf And "svn st"'s output is not empty.
20:21 rindolf OK, the svn:ignore is fixed now.
20:25 xerox_ is now known as xerox
20:25 jferrero joined perl6
20:31 rindolf ingy: seems this is caused by the .svn directories there.
20:31 kastol joined perl6
20:31 rindolf They interfere with the All_Files count.
20:33 nox_ghost is now known as ofer0
20:33 ingy rindolf: all the tests need to pass :)
20:34 ingy ok I'm leaving for a while
20:34 ingy I'll check back later
20:39 rindolf ingy: OK.
20:41 fglock joined perl6
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20:51 kolibrie fglock++ # nice commits today
21:09 integral is now known as integral|ZzZzz
21:10 fglock kolibrie: :)
21:12 fglock now looking for 'phd dropout' in google
21:13 kolibrie fglock: ??
21:15 fglock my phd is in neurology - not really fun nowadays
21:15 kolibrie hmm
21:17 * kolibrie thinks school stopped being fun at about age 12
21:18 kolibrie though the first year of college was okay, too
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21:29 svnbot6 r13694 | lanny++ | [t/builtins/math/*]
21:29 svnbot6 r13694 | lanny++ | - fix smartlinks to new S29
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21:48 dduncan on building the latest Pugs, I get an error: /usr/bin/ld: Undefined symbols: _pugs_UndefVal ... is this known?
21:48 dduncan my GHC is 6.4.1
22:00 fglock left perl6
22:06 TreyHarris dduncan: were you making from scratch?  i ran into that once but a make clean fixed it
22:06 Patterner i'm making r13694 with 6.4.2 right now
22:06 dduncan I was not making from scratch
22:06 Patterner (with "make distclean" first :)
22:06 dduncan there is no prebuild 6.4.2 for Mac OS X, last I recall
22:06 TreyHarris dduncan: try clean first
22:07 dduncan usually when I clean, I "realclean" ... the haskell build takes up most of the time anyway, and any kind of clean usually redoes those anyway
22:07 dduncan is "distclean" more or less thorough than that?
22:08 Patterner no idea...
22:08 Patterner i may have used realclean nevertheless...
22:08 lanny looks line clean does an 'rm' over the usual suspects; distclean does 'realclean' + 'distcheck'
22:10 TreyHarris dduncan: dunno... i'm running 6.5.20060910 on os x ppc and 6.5.20060608 on os x intel
22:10 Patterner and "reallydistclean""?
22:10 dduncan is there a really...?
22:11 lanny There's a 'veryclean'
22:11 dduncan I understand that GHC above 6.4.x will soon become mandatory, so I may have to upgrade soon anyway
22:11 dduncan but are there OS X binaries for 6.5.x or do I have to build GHC from source?
22:12 TreyHarris intel or ppc?
22:12 dduncan PPC
22:12 lanny GHC stable is 6.4.2 so should at least have an hour or two warning before 6.4.x is no longer supported.
22:12 dduncan yes, but last I saw, 6.4.2 binary wasn't out for OS X yet ... it was lagging the other os'
22:13 TreyHarris lanny: AFAIK, the issue isn't ghc's stability... gaal and audreyt want to use features that aren't supported until the 6.6 release, so pugs may require a beta ghc regardless of its purported stability
22:13 dduncan it is still the case for 6.4.2: Coming soon: MacOS X (PowerPC)
22:13 dduncan so I should get used to a beta GHC then?
22:14 dduncan is there any risk like with some betas that this GHC may cause significant data risk ... eg, no install on production?
22:14 TreyHarris dduncan: i thought i'd seen a binary, but i can't find it.  i built from source.  other than having to wait 8 hours for it to compile, it was pretty painless
22:14 dduncan yes, I like the binaries ... one minute to install
22:14 TreyHarris dduncan: dunno, i don't use ghc for anything but pugs
22:14 TreyHarris well, and to play with haskell
22:14 dduncan ditto
22:14 lanny TreyHarris: Yes.  I remember audreyt patching something for the next ghc beta for that reason.
22:15 dduncan afaik, Pugs 6.2.13 will support GHC 6.4.x, but Pugs 6.28 will require GHC 6.5.x+ ... so I heard
22:15 lanny I wonder though.  Pugs is further along than I thought when I started looking at it again and it's been nice to play with it.  With the need of a GHC beta that will hold back a lot of dabblers until binary builds are out.
22:17 TreyHarris lanny: depends on the definition of 'dabbler'.... there will be binary builds of Pugs itself, if you want to dabble with Perl 6.  If you want to dabble with modifying Pugs... I dunno, I don't see requiring you to build a compiler in order to let you build another compiler as that big a hurdle, but maybe that's just me. :-)
22:18 lanny You won't find an argument on that from me.  If there are binary builds for Pugs for different platforms that would address my concern.
22:19 lanny For all the reality that building something as complex as Perl 6 takes time perl has taken a hit because everyone expected the standard miracles.
22:20 lanny I'm gonna have to start programming in Java soon because we can't wait for perl6 for our next product.
22:20 * mugwump wonders if his build on 6.4.1 will work
22:24 nperez lanny: do C# instead
22:25 nperez heh
22:26 lanny I haven't even bothered to glance at C#  (Which I first read as 'See Comment')
22:28 mugwump ruby!
22:28 mugwump or even python!
22:29 mugwump just built r13694 ok on ghc 6.4.1
22:29 mugwump with PUGS_EMBED=perl5
22:29 lanny seen lanny
22:29 jabbot lanny: lanny was seen 3 minutes 11 seconds ago
22:30 mugwump on Ubuntu Dapper Drake amd64
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23:20 ajs_work Anyone know PGE fairly well and want to correct any bugs in this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrot_Grammar_Engine
23:20 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/zvuxw
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