Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-09-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:04 penk joined perl6
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00:27 mako132_ joined perl6
00:40 audreyt [particle]: hey, I made you metacommitter
00:41 [particle] audreyt, thanks, what does that mean?
00:41 audreyt meaning you can freely hand out committer bit the next time someone asks :)
00:41 audreyt most people regularly appearing here in #perl6 has metacommit bit
00:41 [particle] excellent, now i need to figure out how...
00:42 audreyt a sec
00:43 audreyt login to rt.openfoundry.org first and then http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project/Admin/Members/index.html?Queue=270
00:43 lambdabot Title: Pugs -- OSSF, http://tinyurl.com/fc5ql
00:43 audreyt which I've just added a DNS alias to http://commitbit.pugscode.org/ (takes a while to propagate)
00:46 [particle] del.icio.us, thanks!
00:46 audreyt cool!
00:47 [particle] so, i've got ~5000 static html pages, and i'm looking for a search tool. any leads?
00:47 audreyt uhm, htdig?
00:48 [particle] yeah, that's the first thing i thought of. you seem to know of everything bleeding edge, so i figured i'd ask ;)
00:49 TreyHarris audreyt: i'd be happy to help with that as well... i was here too when yts asked
00:50 audreyt TreyHarris: done
00:50 TreyHarris thanks :)
00:51 audreyt :)
00:53 zptao grep
00:54 zptao or write a script for it
01:03 ajs_home I gave up. These days I use MediaWiki, which has decent (but not great) search built in.... I'm thinking of applying Perl 6 to improving its search as an early project once pugs is stable....
01:06 audreyt pugs is by definition no more stable than the perl6 specs, though... :)
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01:12 [particle] pugs is stable, if you don't C<svn up> ;)
01:13 audreyt [particle]++ # jhi will approve of this definition
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01:26 audreyt TreyHarris: the "your" declarator is already in perl5
01:26 audreyt via Acme::Your on CPAN
01:36 svnbot6 r13717 | audreyt++ | * Prefix +^ now takes arbitrary-precision integers; it's simply:
01:36 svnbot6 r13717 | audreyt++ |     sub (Int $x) { -$x - 1 }
01:37 [particle] a 2's compliment op?
01:38 TimToady yes
01:40 [particle] hrmm, S03 says 1's compliment ...checking which is correct...
01:40 kanru joined perl6
01:41 TimToady they're both correct
01:41 TimToady 2's complement merely changes the numeric meaning of flipping all the bits.
01:42 [particle] okay, so this is pure bit twiddling, it's not really -$x - 1
01:42 TimToady it's assuming we're using arbitrarily large integers to store bits as 2's complement
01:43 [particle] ok. but the true internal representation is ieee, at least for parrot (i think that's specced, too)
01:43 audreyt perl6's Int is not parrot's I32...
01:44 [particle] (and ieee is sign-magnitude)
01:44 TimToady it doesn't actually have to keep track of all the bits, since there are an infinite number of either 1 or 0 bits there.
01:44 [particle] audreyt, yes i know.
01:44 [particle] does this extend to int, or just Int?
01:44 audreyt +^ on int probably flips bits using native repr
01:44 [particle] ok, great.
01:44 audreyt however, undecorated numeric literals assume Int
01:45 audreyt not int, behaviour
01:45 audreyt so +^0 is always -1, I think
01:45 [particle] yes, that's sane.
01:45 [particle] unless pragmata apply
01:45 TimToady we'd like to think so o_O
01:45 [particle] ack *thppt*
01:45 audreyt TimToady: S03:926 is misleading, then, as it talks about machine dependent behaviour
01:48 svnbot6 r13718 | audreyt++ | * Make interpolating <<$x>> behave a bit more like <<literal>>:
01:48 svnbot6 r13718 | audreyt++ |     my $x = 'foo';
01:48 svnbot6 r13718 | audreyt++ |     << $x >>;       # Str('foo')
01:48 svnbot6 r13718 | audreyt++ |     << $x $x >>;    # Seq(Str('foo'), Str('foo'))
01:48 svnbot6 r13718 | audreyt++ |   It used to be that it produces a list no matter what, but that
01:48 svnbot6 r13718 | audreyt++ |   wasn't the behaviour for noninterpolating literals.
01:49 MacVince joined perl6
01:53 audreyt TimToady: should +^1.5 coerce, or use native Num flipbit?
01:56 TimToady Wouldn't the standard implicit semantics coerce unless Num defines flipbit?
01:58 audreyt sure, but the opcode is spelled +^ not int^
01:58 audreyt but otoh, bitwise on floating is something perl5 didn't do
01:59 audreyt maybe surprising if it starts doing that by default
01:59 TimToady but if there's prefix:<+^>:(Int) and not :(Num)...
01:59 audreyt nodnod.
01:59 audreyt ok, as-is then
02:00 TimToady I think it works out in floating anyway: int(-1.5 - 1) - 1 == 1
02:01 audreyt good (floating) point
02:02 TimToady real-ly
02:03 * audreyt triages on
02:03 weinigBBL is now known as weinigZzZ
02:03 TimToady how difficult will it be to rewrite @.foo() to @(self.foo()) or self.foo().[]
02:04 TimToady lots of the ext tests you're working your way toward fail on that...
02:05 audreyt hmmm
02:05 TimToady (on account o', that's what I translated ./foo() to.)
02:05 TimToady well, sometimes.
02:05 TimToady hard part is picking up the .()
02:05 audreyt yeah. need case analysis
02:06 audreyt seen @.foo, don't parse it as Var, instead parse it as call
02:06 jabbot audreyt: I havn't seen @.foo,, audreyt
02:06 audreyt but "has @.foo()" invalid
02:06 audreyt right?
02:06 audreyt so this only makes sense in expr
02:06 audreyt not sig position
02:06 TimToady yeah, unless we want @.foo to have a sig for some reason.  :/
02:07 TimToady actually, didn't S09 allow sigs on arrays and hashes?  Lemme check...
02:08 TimToady yeah, it does currently.
02:09 audreyt hrmph.
02:10 audreyt what about
02:10 audreyt @::('.foo')
02:10 audreyt ?
02:10 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
02:10 audreyt is that even legal?
02:11 TimToady It could probably be made legal, but I'd have to see a decent use case for separate a twigil from its sigil.
02:12 audreyt ok, not considering it then
02:12 theorbtwo @.::('foo') is legal, though?
02:12 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
02:12 TimToady in fact, one could argue that the reason for separating them is to denature the twigil.
02:13 audreyt TimToady: what's
02:13 TimToady much like $object.'*foo' calls the *foo method
02:13 audreyt $.foo.(1)
02:13 audreyt ?
02:13 audreyt it's the same as $.foo(1) ?
02:14 TimToady I think .() and () are always the same as postfix.
02:14 audreyt okie.
02:14 zptao did they cut your balls off audreyt?
02:15 zptao or do you just tuck it
02:15 audreyt TimToady: also, I wonder if @.+foo should be made legal
02:15 audreyt probably not.
02:15 audreyt (quantified call)
02:15 * theorbtwo gets "I My Me Strawbery Eggs" flashbacks.
02:16 TimToady we can always add it later if it makes sense.
02:16 audreyt @.foo: 1,2,3
02:16 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
02:16 audreyt sane?
02:17 TimToady I think it should be equiv to @.foo(1,2,3)
02:18 TimToady it really is a method call underneath, after all.
02:18 TimToady self.foo(1,2,3).[]
02:18 TimToady it's just an attribute with a fancier name.
02:19 ajs_home I have a question about my recent RFC on p6l if anyone has a second. It was supposed to be a quick thing, but at this point, I'm not sure. Is it worth pursuing, or should I just drop it?
02:20 ajs_home Hmm... I'm sensing "just drop it."
02:21 TimToady I think it's just something to bear in mind as we go along.
02:21 TimToady We're all feeling our way into the roles thing, and how it relates to scopes.
02:22 TimToady my original proto notion was really directed more at lexical scopes, but if it can be extended to class scopes, that seems like a cool idea.
02:23 ajs_home Fair enough. I was just getting antsy, seeing all of the places that the same multi method would be exported from each class... with the hope that they would all play nicely, but I have to admit that my idea was just a stop-gap, and not a full solution
02:23 ajs_home I'll let it go for now.
02:23 ajs_home Thanks
02:23 TimToady at the moment, I think the overall sentiment is that we mostly just want to get the thing out the door without boxing ourselves in
02:23 ajs_home Out the door sounds like a nice plan
02:23 TimToady but there's plenty of wiggle room left
02:23 TimToady (fingers crossed)
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02:26 audreyt TimToady: implemented...
02:26 audreyt resmoking to make sure
02:33 mugwump audreyt: do you know of any words with ǚ (or other tonal ü) in the Hanyu Pinyin?
02:34 audreyt the umlaut U
02:34 mugwump or anyone with some zh knowledge?  :)
02:34 audreyt is used not as a tone
02:34 audreyt but as alternate spelling of yu
02:35 mugwump oh, so it's not a distinct vowel?
02:35 mugwump so, Hànyǚ would be correct?
02:35 audreyt as in nyu (woman), lyu (travel)
02:36 audreyt actually "yu" doesn't need the umlaut
02:36 audreyt it's only needed after n/y
02:37 audreyt so yu3 is correct in itself, the umlaut is probably not canonical
02:40 zptao where do you keep your genitals audreyt
02:40 TimToady_ joined perl6
02:40 zptao a special jar?
02:42 zptao guess thats what happens when you spend so much time in a code window you lose your own personality
02:43 audreyt zptao: would you like a pugs commit bit?
02:43 zptao no
02:44 ChanServ sets mode: +o audreyt
02:44 audreyt too bad, then...
02:44 audreyt sets mode: +b *!*n=k0k0@*.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net
02:44 zptao was kicked by audreyt (audreyt)
02:44 audreyt sets mode: -o audreyt
02:44 agentzh joined perl6
02:44 [particle] audreyt++ # style points
02:45 audreyt *curtsies*
02:45 audreyt TimToady: this test:
02:45 audreyt class A { method a { $.a = 1 }}; A.new.a;
02:46 audreyt hangs after the commit. expected, right?
02:46 TimToady_ yes, should use $!a for that.
02:47 audreyt k
02:47 mauke_ joined perl6
02:47 TimToady_ course, then it should fail, since there is no such attr...
02:48 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "Anyone can help me to translate the following poem to modern english?" (8 lines, 304B) at http://sial.org/pbot/20043
02:48 TimToady_ and in any case .a isn't an rw method...
02:48 pfenwick joined perl6
02:49 TimToady_ that is modern english, according to the dictionaries.
02:49 agentzh TimToady_: i can't understand it...
02:50 TimToady_ 'course, that's basically anything after Chaucer...
02:50 agentzh wow
02:50 TimToady_ you don't need the poetry part of it preserved?
02:50 agentzh i prefer something after the world war II
02:50 agentzh TimToady_: no, i don't.
02:50 bcorn joined perl6
02:50 agentzh i'm just trying to translate that to chinese.
02:51 agentzh i only want to fully understand it.
02:51 TimToady_ then they built him a new ship
02:51 agentzh okay
02:51 TimToady_ they made it out of elves' silver and elves' glass
02:51 agentzh yeah
02:52 TimToady_ the front of the boat was shiney, it didn't run on oars
02:52 TimToady_ or with sails (whether or not the boat actually had a silver mast is unclear)
02:52 agentzh how about "shaven oar"?
02:52 * pfenwick only just arrived...  Are we discussing tales of Gil-Galad?
02:52 TimToady_ shaving as in carving, so an oar (paddle) carved out of wood
02:53 agentzh ah
02:53 agentzh i see!
02:53 agentzh please go on...
02:53 agentzh TimToady++
02:54 TimToady_ the Silmaril (a big jewel) and a banner were put on the boat by Elbereth
02:54 TimToady_ the jewel was like a lantern
02:54 * pfenwick finds the IRC logs.  ;)
02:54 TimToady_ and the bannar was like a living flame.
02:55 TimToady_ anyway, this Elbereth chick shows up...
02:55 agentzh aye!
02:55 TimToady_ something like that...
02:56 agentzh how about "who thither came"?
02:56 agentzh she came from the thither?
02:56 agentzh or the thither itself came to her?
02:56 TimToady_ thither == "to there"
02:57 TimToady_ she showed up
02:57 agentzh oh!
02:57 agentzh got it!
02:57 agentzh Thank you very much, TimToady!
02:57 TimToady_ np
02:57 agentzh i'll tell the audience that larry helped me with the translation... :)
02:58 agentzh that'll simply rock!
02:58 agentzh :D
03:02 mauke_ is now known as mauke
03:02 audreyt agentzh: I did translate it
03:02 audreyt http://www.pugscode.org/talks/yapc/slide5.html
03:03 lambdabot Title: , http://tinyurl.com/f5y8z
03:03 audreyt it's part of Pugs :)
03:03 agentzh audreyt: thanks!
03:03 agentzh audreyt: it's wonderful... :D
03:03 svnbot6 r13719 | audreyt++ | * adjust smoe tests that fails due to $.foo(1,2,3) parsing
03:03 audreyt thanks :) I did spend a lot of time on the translation of that...
03:04 audreyt bbiab
03:12 rashakil joined perl6
03:19 * mugwump huffmanises his keymap
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03:30 svnbot6 r13720 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
03:30 svnbot6 r13720 | agentz++ | - renamed globals $count and $broken_count to
03:30 svnbot6 r13720 | agentz++ |   $link_count and $broken_link_count.
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05:55 yts joined perl6
06:02 yts hello~
06:06 TreyHarris hello, yts
06:06 TreyHarris did you get a commit bit?
06:06 yts <msg TreyHarris i have learned a little Haskell and i have interest in Perl6, how could i joini to develop pugs
06:07 yts <msg TreyHarris commit bit?
06:07 TreyHarris yts: have you downloaded the pugs source from svn?
06:08 TreyHarris yts: you can talk to me on the channel, it's fine, and if you want to send a private message, you use "/msg", not "<msg"
06:08 yts ohoh
06:13 agentzh joined perl6
06:13 TreyHarris hi agentzh
06:13 agentzh hi Trey
06:14 agentzh here're the slides for this evening's talk: http://perlcabal.org/agent/slides/naming/naming.xul
06:14 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/hbtly
06:14 agentzh i used audreyt and TimToady's photos there (with permission). :)
06:14 agentzh it's a "baby talk", but has some atoms of Perl 6. :)
06:15 agentzh comments welcome. :D
06:16 TreyHarris ooooh... can you really use "but non" junctions to mix-out behavior?
06:16 TreyHarris or was that poetic license? :)
06:16 TreyHarris s/but non/but none/
06:17 agentzh Trey: oh, i was not aware of that.
06:17 agentzh what's the correct syntax?
06:19 TreyHarris i don't know if syntax exists... you said "Silver $.mast but none (Oar::Shaven, Sail);"
06:19 TreyHarris i didn't know if that were possible
06:20 agentzh that piece of code is from the pugs tree.
06:20 gaal Help me find a Chinese name! I think "bu" means wave, so maybe something based on that?
06:20 agentzh bu?
06:20 * gaal is enjoying agentzh++'s slides
06:20 svnbot6 r13721 | malon++ | smokeserv-server.pl - more broken link avoidance
06:20 svnbot6 r13721 | malon++ | * don't make SYN links if we couldn't retrieve the synopses
06:20 svnbot6 r13721 | malon++ | * correct r13435, unbreaking links to t/*.t files from TAP HTML matrices
06:20 agentzh gaal: glad you like it. :)
06:20 gaal agentzh: my name means wave, in Hebrew
06:20 agentzh ah!
06:21 gaal as in, of the ocean
06:21 agentzh i think this one is appropriate: ÀË
06:22 gaal doesn't show up right here
06:22 TreyHarris agentzh: ah, i thought you wrote it, i never looked at the poetry subdir before
06:22 agentzh heh, i didn't write it. :)
06:22 agentzh or maybe i should make it obvious.
06:23 agentzh it's copyrighted by pugs, i think. :)
06:24 agentzh gaal: i'll work on your chinese name for you. :D
06:24 gaal yay, thanks :)
06:24 agentzh it must be cooler than ingy's. :)
06:24 yts i have use "svu checkout http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/"
06:24 lambdabot Title: Revision 13721: /
06:25 yts and then i download the source code already
06:25 TreyHarris yts: good.  msg me your email address and i'll send you a commit bit
06:25 agentzh s/svu/svn/
06:25 TreyHarris unless you want spam, don't say it on the channel :)
06:25 yts agentzh : typo sorry ^^""
06:25 agentzh yts: :)
06:26 agentzh yts: so what's the question?
06:26 TreyHarris agentzh: you logged in midstream
06:26 agentzh Trey: ah, i see.
06:27 TreyHarris ?eval 1
06:27 evalbot_r13710 is now known as evalbot_r13721
06:27 evalbot_r13721 1
06:27 TreyHarris ?eval my $x;  Int $x;
06:27 evalbot_r13721 Error:  Unexpected "$" expecting comment, "(", ":", operator, statement modifier, ";" or end of input
06:27 TreyHarris I thought so.  I don't think that poem is legal Perl 6 anymore.  Too bad, as it's lovely
06:27 yts this is the first time i use SVN, so i will read SVN doc now :)
06:28 TreyHarris yts: what is your email address?  i am happy to walk you through your first commit
06:29 gaal agentzh: the word "consistency" should probably make its way into those slides
06:29 TreyHarris yts: the docs distributed with svn are not as helpful for beginners as this i think: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/
06:29 lambdabot Title: Version Control with Subversion
06:30 agentzh gaal: yeah, you're absolutely right!
06:30 agentzh maybe something like "do the same thing everywhere"
06:31 TreyHarris that's not consistency, that's obliviousness :)
06:31 agentzh oh
06:32 agentzh i'll add notes on consistency to the slides.
06:33 agentzh gaal++
06:33 gaal "The problem with being consistent is that there are lots of ways to be consistent, and they're all inconsistent with each other." -- TimToady++
06:34 agentzh great quote!
06:34 TreyHarris gaal: did you get your answer as to t1, etc., in haskell messages?  i didn't see it in scrollback and was curious too
06:34 gaal nope
06:42 TreyHarris oh, this is just awful.  a project at $job requires me to pull two SNMP tables rooted at different points in the tree.  both tables are indexed to a third.  but that table--all three actually--keeps changing (it is maintained in alphabetical order and has items added/removed regularly).  so at no point in time can i be sure that the first table's nth item matches the other two's nth items. :-/
06:43 TreyHarris unless snmp has some transactional or atomic aspects that aren't exposed by Net::SNMP and that i'm not seeing in the RFC....
06:43 marmic joined perl6
06:43 gaal no locking, eh?
06:43 TreyHarris not that i can see
06:44 TreyHarris i think clearly this MIB tree was designed with low-turnover tables in mind
06:44 gaal (even if you had had locking, nobody said you could use it - other users of the device probably don't expect waits)
06:45 iblechbot joined perl6
06:47 agentzh gaal: i've updated the slides according to your suggestion. (see slide 16 and 17) thanks!
06:47 gaal whee
06:55 agentzh gaal: how about this name: http://perlcabal.org/agent/slides/naming/gaal.xul ?
06:55 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/hh8do
06:55 TreyHarris heh, i'm beginning to think that yts is just going to join, ask for a commit bit and leave, twice a day from now on :)
06:56 agentzh the first glyph has similar pronunciation as gaal
06:56 agentzh gaal: while the last two means "making waves" in chinese.
06:56 gaal hee :)
06:56 audreyt actually, "rabble rouser".
06:56 gaal what's the pinyin for it?
06:56 agentzh audreyt: sort of. :)
06:57 audreyt ge3 xing1-lang4
06:57 agentzh ge xing lang
06:57 audreyt where xing1-lang4 is short for xing1-feng1-zuo4-lang4, "rabble rousing"
06:57 ruz joined perl6
06:57 agentzh audreyt: lol
06:57 gaal recursive definition? wow
06:59 agentzh i was just about to say "gaal, let's see what audreyt would say on it"
06:59 agentzh too sad "xing lang" has that meaning...
06:59 agentzh chinese is a scary language, like perl. :)
07:00 agentzh i has thought about "da4 lang4", "jing1 lang4"...
07:00 TreyHarris is jonathan lang on this channel?
07:01 TreyHarris speaking of langs :)
07:01 agentzh maybe "jing1 lang4" is better?
07:01 gaal yes, maybe I shouldn't take a name I can't pronounce
07:01 agentzh fixing...
07:02 TreyHarris how can i change some utf8 text into a string of \x... literals?
07:03 gaal (the third tone is tricky for uneducated folks like myself)
07:03 audreyt I think xing lang is fine
07:03 audreyt rabble rousing is a good thing :)
07:03 agentzh audreyt: yes?
07:04 agentzh audreyt: glad you think in the same way as me. :)
07:04 gaal "svn"
07:04 agentzh maybe we should just the chinese family name for gaal?
07:05 agentzh gaal has difficulty pronouncing ge3
07:05 agentzh maybe we should simply get rid of the family name entirely?
07:05 gaal maybe with some coaching. heh, february's approaching
07:05 agentzh xing1 lang4 is good enough.
07:06 agentzh xing1 lang4 reminds me of http://www.sina.com.cn ...
07:06 lambdabot Title: ÐÂÀËÊ×Ò³
07:07 audreyt I like ge3. gao1 can work (as in clkao), but gao1xing1 is a phrase and unsuitable here
07:07 audreyt heh, that's xin1 lang4
07:07 TreyHarris audreyt: is jonathan lang correct?  only roles may be abstract, not classes or packages (i think he means modules)?
07:07 audreyt not xing1 lang4
07:07 audreyt abstract, as in parameteric?
07:08 audreyt class Foo[::t] ?
07:08 TreyHarris audreyt: no, as in uninstantiable, meant only for is-ing
07:08 ajs_home I would read that as "abstract is in class A {...}" which I think A12 said was legal.
07:08 audreyt oh. you can instantiate a role
07:08 audreyt in which case it creates an anonclass that trivially does it
07:08 TreyHarris *may* be... i'm talking about the contrapositive of that
07:09 audreyt but if you say .WHAT, you don't get back the role
07:09 audreyt I mean, .HOW
07:09 audreyt that is, a .HOW metaobject is never a role
07:09 TreyHarris can you create a class that is uninstantiable until it is subclassed and filled in?
07:09 snowstalker joined perl6
07:09 audreyt well, you can always trap things in new/CREATE/BUILD
07:09 audreyt but that'd be dynamic runtime checks
07:10 audreyt I don't think there's a declarative way to do that
07:10 agentzh audreyt: i have some difficulty to differentiate xing and xin due to my chinese dialect. ;)
07:10 TreyHarris ok, like Perl 5
07:11 audreyt agentzh: I think "gao1 lang4" is good enough
07:11 audreyt literally, "high wave"
07:11 agentzh yeah, concise too.
07:11 TreyHarris i'm very fond of factoring out my common "private" code into abstract superclasses.  roles are wrong for that, because roles are about "public" behavior mostly
07:11 audreyt that is not so
07:12 audreyt TreyHarris: "our method !foo" in a role can mixin into classes
07:12 audreyt that use it
07:12 audreyt yet unconsumable by public
07:13 agentzh gaal: http://perlcabal.org/agent/slides/naming/gaal.xul
07:13 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/hh8do
07:13 TreyHarris audreyt: yes.  but would a role's BUILD be visited at a doer's instantiation time?
07:13 agentzh gaal: that is gao1 lang4
07:14 gaal heh, except i'm not the tallest of hackers around here :)
07:14 audreyt TreyHarris: sure, as long as the doer doen't define BUILD
07:14 zakharyas joined perl6
07:15 gaal was i totally wrong about bu- being a particle for wave words? weird.
07:15 agentzh gaal: lol
07:15 audreyt or, if both cooperate and define BUILD as multi, that will cause both be visited
07:15 agentzh gaal: bu4 means nope
07:15 audreyt gaal: gao1 is a common family name :)
07:15 agentzh gaal: very common, actually. much more common than mine (zhang1).
07:15 gaal and i get cl as a relative? neat.
07:15 audreyt and in .cn everyday speech (but not .tw), "gao1" also means "high" in english's other meaning
07:16 audreyt as in excited
07:16 agentzh lang4 means waves.
07:16 agentzh *nod*
07:16 agentzh gao! shi zai shi gao!
07:17 agentzh gaal: if you like it, i'll fix my slides using your shiney new chinese name. :)
07:18 TreyHarris audreyt: hmm.  i have many classes whose new() says something like "my $proto = shift; my $class = ref($proto) || $proto; croak "Attempt to instantiate abstract class" if $class eq __PACKAGE__; # proceed with common object instantiation"
07:18 TreyHarris with the idea that those that use it as a base will call NEXT in their own new (if they want to override something)
07:20 gaal sure! does it work in Chinese to do { temp $name = "gao1 xing1 lang4" } when I'm feeling subversive?
07:20 TreyHarris so the perl 6 words work well for the concept: i create such uninstantiable classes when the instantiable class *is* a type of the uninstantiable class, rather than simply being a class that *does* what the uninstantiable class does
07:23 agentzh gaal: well, it worked 20 years ago in china. :)
07:24 agentzh or maybe 30 years ago.
07:24 gaal good then. thanks! :)
07:25 agentzh hmm...i've found gao1 lang4 very cool!
07:25 agentzh audreyt++
07:26 agentzh i'll tell the origin of gaal's chinese name to the audience tonight. :)
07:26 ajs_home TreyHarris: I replied to your mail. I think you're confusing yadda methods with interfaces. A role is only an interface when all of its methods are undefined per S12....
07:26 gaal :)
07:27 TreyHarris audreyt: I thought that the ordinary way to declare BUILD was as a submethod?  Then the default new calls all the BUILDs for you, right?
07:28 agentzh gaal: fixed. see naming.xul slide 15 and get a feeling of it. :)
07:29 gaal yay :) agentzh++ audreyt++
07:29 gaal "slothlike" doesn't translate succinctly, does ir
07:29 gaal *it
07:30 agentzh gaal: hmm
07:31 gaal I actually have no idea - it just looks long
07:31 TreyHarris ajs_home: you're referring to S12:851?  I read that as an operational observation, not as a definition of an "interface".  It seems absurd to me that if you have an interface role with "method is { ... }", that you aren't allowed to declare "method isn't { ! .is }" without no longer being an interface
07:31 agentzh gaal: i can't find a better way to translate that word. :(
07:31 agentzh gaal: however, it reads well to chinese folks. :)
07:31 agentzh gaal: although a bit long. :D
07:32 gaal "sloth" is an animal. maybe use the chinese word for it? though that might not carry the English/Christian connotations.
07:32 gaal okay, whatever works :)
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07:32 gaal I obviously can't criticize chinese. Was just making an observation.
07:33 agentzh gaal: thank you :)
07:33 agentzh if i mention the sloth animal, the chinese translation will be much longer. :)
07:33 gaal lol
07:35 agentzh gotta run to class, bbiab &
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08:33 TreyHarris gaal, audreyt: I'm still working through YAHT, and I created a data type that =, as one of its guards, 'Nothing'.  But when I try to compile, I get, "Ambiguous occurrence `Nothing'... It could refer to either `Main.Nothing', defined at MyTest.hs:6:21, or `Data.Maybe.Nothing', imported from Data.Maybe at MyTest.hs:4:0-16"
08:33 TreyHarris if i change my Nothings to "Data.Maybe.Nothing", it tells me "Not in scope: data constructor `Data.Maybe.Nothing'
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08:35 TreyHarris oh, well.
08:35 audreyt are you importing Data.Maybe?
08:36 audreyt if you are, then you have to import it qualified
08:36 audreyt import qualified Data.Maybe;
08:36 TreyHarris yes... program starts "module Main; where; import Data.Maybe"
08:37 audreyt so import it qualified will fix it
08:37 TreyHarris ahh.  i guess YAHT left that out
08:38 TreyHarris all their examples just have bare "Nothing"
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08:40 audreyt yts: heya. did you get your commit bit?
08:40 audreyt ifso, please add yourself to the AUTHORS file and commit it to test the commit
08:40 TreyHarris audreyt: no, yts hasn't given me his/her email yet
08:41 TreyHarris yts: please do :)
08:45 TreyHarris audreyt: in my ghc source tree, where can I find Data.Maybe's source?  i must be dumb
08:46 audreyt libraries/base/
08:46 audreyt Data/Maybe.hs
08:48 * TreyHarris blushes
08:48 TreyHarris oops!  i was in your binary release tree, that's why i couldn't find it
08:48 audreyt that explains it :)
08:49 yts how could i check the commit bit, just use "svn commit"?
08:50 TreyHarris yts: have you sent me your email address?
08:51 audreyt yts: what's your email address?
08:52 TreyHarris yts: got it, thank you
08:53 yts TreyHarris:i can't send msg to you
08:53 TreyHarris yts: you can now
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08:54 TreyHarris yts: I am reading your messages
08:54 TreyHarris are you not seeing mine?
08:56 yts :TreyHarris because what i type to you  didn't show on screen
08:56 TreyHarris yts: it's very strange.  i have been getting your messages fine
08:56 TreyHarris but apparently you are not getting mine
08:57 TreyHarris but you are seeing what i type on the channel
08:57 TreyHarris in any case, check your email
08:57 yts F00
08:57 audreyt TreyHarris: did you identify to freenode?
08:58 TreyHarris audreyt: yes, and i turned filtered off
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09:16 gaal TreyHarris: but what do you means as one of its guards?
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09:16 gaal if you have data MyDatatype = OneVariant | Nothing, then you have a clash
09:16 TreyHarris gaal: yes, I see that now
09:17 gaal because Maybe's nothing constructor is in scope.
09:17 TreyHarris I didn't realize that $type eq $constructor is merely convention in Haskell
09:17 TreyHarris but now I'm clearer :)
09:17 gaal ah, I just noticed audreyt's 'import qualified' hint
09:17 penk joined perl6
09:17 gaal it's not always a very good convention
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09:27 yts i have ghc-6.4.2 command, but when i want to perl Makefile.pl
09:27 yts it says "Cannot find GHC 6.4.1 or above from path (we have 6.4)."
09:28 yts i type " alias ghc='ghc-6.4.2'; perl Makefile.PL" but didn't work ..
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09:29 TreyHarris yts: aliases are a shell convention, Makefile.PL can't see them
09:30 TreyHarris if you type "unalias ghc; ghc --help" what do you get?
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09:37 yts -bash: unalias: ghc: not found
09:37 yts Usage:
09:37 yts    ghc-6.4
09:37 yts [command-line-options-and-input-files]
09:37 yts To compile and link a complete Haskell program, run the compiler like
09:37 yts so:
09:37 yts    ghc-6.4 --make Main
09:38 TreyHarris yts: that's very strange
09:39 TreyHarris unalias is a bash builtin
09:39 TreyHarris i can't figure why it would not let you do it
09:39 yts -bash-3.00$ unalias
09:39 yts unalias: usage: unalias [-a] name [name ...]
09:39 yts -bash-3.00$ unalias ghc
09:39 yts -bash: unalias: ghc: not found
09:39 yts -bash-3.00$
09:39 yts but i can use "ghc"
09:41 TreyHarris oh, ok.
09:41 TreyHarris type "ghc --version"?
09:41 yts The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.4
09:42 yts my system has two ghc version
09:42 TreyHarris that's not 6.4.2
09:42 yts one is 6.4 and the other is 6.4.2
09:42 TreyHarris yts: ok... are they both installed in the same directory?
09:42 TreyHarris just export GHC and set it to the 6.4.2
09:43 TreyHarris and then run perl Makefile.PL again
09:43 TreyHarris fyi, you will need a 6.5 version of GHC in order to build Pugs fairly soon (days? weeks?)
09:46 yts but in GHC web, it only release 6.4.2 @@
09:48 TreyHarris yts: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/dist/current/dist/
09:48 lambdabot Title: Index of /ghc/dist/current/dist
09:48 TreyHarris 6.5 is pre-release
09:51 yts but now i work in workstation...i think i will install 6.5 later when i install linux in my labtop
09:53 Juerd XY problem?
09:53 Juerd perlbot: XY problem?
09:53 perlbot They ask how to do X, but that's because they really want to do Y but think X will get them there and most of the time they are WRONG
09:53 TreyHarris Juerd: to what are you referring? :)
09:54 Juerd TreyHarris: Nothing. Needed to paste that line :)
09:54 Juerd Elsewhere
09:54 TreyHarris ah.  you can priv message perlbot, fyi
09:55 Juerd Useful. Thanks.
10:27 yts i have a make pugs error, is anyone who can help me ?
10:32 rodi depends on the error :)
10:34 yts configure: Compiler flavor: GHC
10:34 yts configure: Compiler version: 6.4.2
10:34 yts configure: Using package tool: util/ghc-pkg-wrapper
10:34 yts configure: Using ar found on system at: /usr/bin/ar
10:34 yts configure: No haddock found
10:34 yts configure: No pfesetup found
10:34 yts configure: Using ranlib found on system at: /usr/bin/ranlib
10:34 yts configure: Using runghc found on system at: /chalmers/sw/sup/phc/b/binl/runghc
10:34 yts configure: Using runhugs found on system at: /chalmers/sw/sup/phc/b/binh/runhugs
10:34 yts configure: Using happy: /chalmers/sw/sup/phc/b/binh/happy
10:34 yts configure: Using alex: /chalmers/sw/sup/phc/b/binh/alex
10:34 yts configure: Using hsc2hs: /chalmers/sw/sup/phc/b/binl/hsc2hs-6.4.2
10:34 yts configure: No c2hs found
10:34 yts configure: No cpphs found
10:34 yts configure: No greencard found
10:34 yts Preprocessing library Pugs-6.2.12...
10:34 yts Setup: Error: file does not exist: "/chalmers/sw/sup/phc/b/binl/hsc2hs-6.4.2"
10:34 yts Build failed: 256 at util/build_pugs.pl line 344.
10:34 yts make: *** [pugs] Error 2
10:35 yts i have hsc2hs command, but i don't know why it find hsc2hs-6.4.2...
10:40 rodi you can set the HSC2HS environment variable, and it should fix this error (assuming everything is there, compatible, etc.)
10:40 rodi also, if you need to paste a lot of text in the channel, you can use the paste bot from the channel topic (http://sial.org/pbot/perl6)
10:41 rodi that way not everyone has to look at it :)
10:42 rodi currently, the way that Makefile.PL finds hsc2hs is to simply substitute "hsc2hs" in for "hsc", which appears not to work on your system.
10:42 rodi What system is it, incidentally?
10:43 nothingmuch joined perl6
10:44 yts i think is Red Hat
10:44 lambdabot yts: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:44 * nothingmuch moos
10:44 nothingmuch lambdabot: does anybody love me?
10:45 nothingmuch *sob*... no messages
10:46 rodi @tell nothingmuch mooooooooose!
10:46 lambdabot Consider it noted.
10:48 nothingmuch lambdabot: does anybody love me now?
10:48 nothingmuch rodi: thanks for trying ;-)
10:48 lambdabot nothingmuch: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:48 theorbtwo lambdabot: Spread the love, baby.
10:48 nothingmuch lambdabot: yay! i know somebody cared
10:48 nothingmuch @messages
10:48 lambdabot rodi said 2m 27s ago: mooooooooose!
10:49 nothingmuch @tell rodi yeah! moose are awesome
10:49 lambdabot Consider it noted.
10:50 rodi how about me?
10:50 lambdabot rodi: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
10:50 rodi w00t!   m00s!
10:50 rodi @messages
10:50 lambdabot nothingmuch said 1m 37s ago: yeah! moose are awesome
10:50 rodi oh man, that's great!
10:50 nothingmuch @moosages
10:50 lambdabot You don't have any new messages.
10:50 rodi LOL
10:50 nothingmuch =D
10:51 nothingmuch @møøsages
10:51 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
10:51 nothingmuch no unicode, eh ;-)
10:51 rodi must be a perl 5 bot ;)
10:51 nothingmuch perl 5 has great unicode support, don't be mean ;-)
10:51 * rodi hugs lambdabot
10:51 rodi errr....
10:52 * rodi hugs perl 5
10:57 yts rodi:  i have set $HSC2HS, but it didn't work @@
10:58 yts rodi:  i have set $HSC2HS, but it didn't work @@
10:58 yts hih
10:58 yts kjslkd
10:58 yts jksld
10:58 yts jslkdf
10:58 yts jksldf
10:59 yts joined perl6
10:59 yts hi
10:59 yts hi
10:59 yts hihi
11:00 yts hihi
11:00 yts jslkfj
11:00 yts ksdjf
11:00 yts changes topic to:
11:00 yts sjkdl
11:00 yts jsldf
11:00 yts jksldjf
11:00 yts skldfj
11:00 rodi huh.
11:01 rodi I guess yts was sad.
11:02 yts joined perl6
11:03 yts hi
11:04 foo\ joined perl6
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11:12 rodi changes topic to: Check your feather email | spec.pugscode.org | paste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com |  http://www.treehugger.com/files/th_images/paradigm.jpg
11:48 yts joined perl6
11:49 yts Setup: Error: file does not exist: "/chalmers/sw/sup/phc/b/binl/hsc2hs-6.4.2"
11:49 yts but i have hsc2hs in different directory.. how should i do
11:51 audreyt yts: hi
11:52 audreyt export HSC2HS=/path/to/hsc2hs
11:53 yts i have set it but it didn't work
11:53 audreyt can you nopaste your build log?
11:53 audreyt using http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
11:53 lambdabot Title: sial.org Pastebot - pasteling
11:55 pasteling "yts" at 193.11.195.34 pasted "*** Finished building dependen" (41 lines, 2.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/20051
11:58 audreyt so you did set export?
11:58 audreyt what did you set it to?
11:58 yts ya
11:58 yts -bash-3.00$ export HSC2HS=/chalmers/sw/sup/phc/b/binh/hsc2hs
11:59 audreyt investigating
12:02 audreyt did you rerun configure after the export?
12:02 audreyt "make" will not pick the setting up
12:02 audreyt you need to configure first
12:03 yts ohoh!
12:03 audreyt since it's probed and then wrote to makefile
12:04 yts i see~
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12:04 yts thans a lot :p
12:04 audreyt no prob :)
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13:01 agentzh whee, the talk was a big success...
13:01 audreyt yay!
13:01 agentzh the audience is keeping saying "wow" when i was introducing audrey to them.
13:01 audreyt *smile*
13:02 agentzh and the students laughed a lot when i was talking about gaal's chinese name. ;-)
13:02 agentzh now every student in my C.S. department knows larry, audrey, and gaal. yay!
13:03 agentzh audreyt: a lot of my friends have say you're very charmful in that picture.
13:03 agentzh *have said
13:03 agentzh ;)
13:05 agentzh my instructor said himself was about to give up his C.S. career but my talk had changed his mind and gave him inspiration and determination.
13:06 agentzh i think that is the power of #perl6!
13:09 audreyt I'm very glad to hear that :)
13:09 audreyt agentzh++
13:09 agentzh audreyt++ #perl6++ larry++ (everyone here)++
13:10 audreyt leo_: ping
13:10 audreyt chip: ping
13:14 agentzh sleep &
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13:22 * audreyt gets weird bus errors on embedding pugs again :/
13:22 audreyt I mean, embedding parrot
13:22 audreyt otoh, the find_global has gone away and we need to either fix that
13:23 audreyt or remove parrot embedding altogether
13:24 audreyt @tell leo_ is this a sensible find_global replacement? void* Pugs_get_base_global(Parrot_Interp i, STRING *ns, STRING *sym) { return Parrot_get_global( i, Parrot_get_namespace_keyed_str(i, i->root_namespace, ns), sym); }
13:24 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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13:38 gaal agentzh: ah, I meant bo (æ³¢) earler
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14:15 count_leto hi :)
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15:17 salty-horse Heinlein? I'm just reading that book! http://www.perl.com/2006/09/21/graphics/x63.jpg
15:17 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/gmnrn
15:18 gaal yeah, that's a Heinlein quote.
15:18 salty-horse I read that part a only week ago :)
15:25 count_leto hey... could anybody tell me why pugs doesn't want to interpret my smartmatch operator?
15:26 [particle] post the code
15:26 count_leto ahm... where?
15:26 [particle] see title
15:26 [particle] http://sial.org/pbot/paste
15:27 pasteling "count_leto" at 84.173.145.196 pasted "test for getting into perl 6" (9 lines, 132B) at http://sial.org/pbot/20057
15:28 [particle] $result = $text ~~ m/Test/;
15:28 count_leto I've found that in a tut
15:29 [particle] where?
15:29 count_leto http://faq.perl-community.de/bin/view/Wissensbasis/Perl6TutorialKapitel4
15:29 lambdabot Title: PerlCommunityWiki » Wissensbasis » Perl6TutorialKapitel4, http://tinyurl.com/jvqu5
15:31 [particle] you should probably correct the example in the wiki, then
15:31 count_leto well, [particle], your version causes my pugs to complain about an 'unexpected "m"'...
15:31 PerlJam count_leto: perhaps you need a newer pugs?
15:31 count_leto I installed yesterday (maybe 2 days ago... cant remember) ...
15:32 count_leto but from a debian-package.
15:32 pasteling "[particle]" at 144.81.84.167 pasted "my pugs session log" (38 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/20058
15:32 [particle] take a look at that log, count_leto
15:33 [particle] ...and what version does 'pugs -v' give you?
15:33 * PerlJam installs ghc again so he can build pugs
15:33 count_leto 6.2.10
15:34 [particle] latest is 6.2.12, .10 is pretty old
15:34 count_leto well, the error at the beginning is quite the same that occurs on my machine.
15:34 audreyt "$text ~~ $result m/Test/;" is not valid syntax anyway
15:35 count_leto hm...
15:35 count_leto I'll install version .12 and complain again later, mkay? ;-)
15:36 audreyt that part is version independent :)
15:36 count_leto that doesn't make my problem smaller... I think
15:37 count_leto after correcting a typo and using [particle] 's code snippets, I get '*** Cannot parse PGE: Test'
15:38 count_leto pugs leaves me questioning my mental sanity
15:38 audreyt ok... one thing at a time
15:38 audreyt first. can you give me your email address so I can send you a commit bit? :)
15:38 audreyt second, install "subversion" and "ghc6" via apt, and run "svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs ; cd pugs ; perl Makefile.PL ; make"
15:39 lambdabot Title: Revision 13721: /
15:39 gaal libperl-dev also
15:39 audreyt once you got the invitation mail, while waiting for pugs to build, edit the AUTHORS file and "svn ci AUTHORS" to make sure the commit works
15:40 weinig is now known as weinig|coffee
15:41 count_leto that all sounds great, audreyt and I thank you for helping me... but what is it I'm installing at the moment? :)
15:42 gaal count_leto: it's the latest code from source control
15:42 gaal since we haven't had a release in a while
15:42 gaal (though one is coming up soon)
15:42 gaal but this is the best way to keep yourself up to date.
15:43 gaal ghc is the compiler used to build pugs itself.
15:43 gaal subversion is a revision control system (like, but better than, cvs)
15:43 count_leto okay...
15:44 audreyt and the reason that the latest revision is relevant is that "Cannot parse PGE" is gone from the set of possible errors
15:44 audreyt and so your sanity may be preserved a bit better :)
15:44 count_leto not that I'm questioning it anyway, hm? ;)
15:45 count_leto in which directory should i run the commands ("svn co http://..." pp.)
15:45 gaal it will create a subdir called 'pugs' wherever you run it.
15:46 gaal so if you have an ~/src/ directory you like to keep projects in, that's a good place.
15:46 gaal but the general answer "it doesn't matter"
15:46 count_leto thanks.
15:46 count_leto *g*
15:47 gaal when you use subversion, btw, you can mv the pugs directory to other places
15:47 audreyt sanity is a controlled substance around here
15:47 gaal periodically, run 'svn up' at the top level to update your sources. this will be much faster than your current full checkout.
15:47 audreyt we need to caliberate your sanity level to touch insanity but not beyond :)
15:48 count_leto lol
15:48 count_leto thanks again, gaal
15:49 gaal sure!
15:49 * audreyt gives up on repairing parrot embedding
15:49 audreyt the packfile segment init sequence doesn't work anymore :/
15:49 audreyt maybe when leo/chip is around tomorrow
15:50 audreyt I need to sleep now *wave*
15:50 gaal I have to go now too *lang4*
15:50 count_leto cu
15:52 * count_leto wonders what lang4 could mean
15:56 count_leto after long contemplation, I found the answer...
15:56 audreyt "wave" in chinese
15:56 gaal it's a silly lang4 joke
16:06 audreyt count_leto: I fixed the wiki, btw.
16:07 count_leto that's great, audreyt :)
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16:37 TreyHarris count_leto: have you gotten pugs built yet?
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16:39 count_leto lol no, TreyHarris ... still compiling ;-)
16:40 * count_leto hasn't got a high-end PC
16:40 TreyHarris when did you start the compile?  what speed is your machine?
16:40 tewk_ is now known as tewk
16:40 count_leto (unfortunately)
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16:41 TreyHarris sure, many of do not :)
16:41 count_leto iirc it's a 266 MHz
16:41 TreyHarris but i just wanted to give you an idea how long to expect
16:42 TreyHarris ah... it may be 3 hours or more
16:42 count_leto root     20785  0.0  0.0   3276   136 pts/3    S+   18:14   0:00 util/runcompiler
16:42 count_leto its running for almost half an hour now
16:43 count_leto so I might just as well take a shower, go out and drink some beer with some friends, come back and 10 mins after returning, its done?
16:43 TreyHarris yes probably :)
16:43 count_leto lol
16:43 count_leto thats awesome
16:44 count_leto i was so eager to start hacking some Perl v6...
16:44 count_leto .o(YOU STILL ARE)
16:44 * count_leto is trying to convince himself
16:44 count_leto I love the idea of using uni-encoded source
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16:46 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
16:46 TreyHarris i was in the same boat until a couple weeks ago, very slow machine
16:46 TreyHarris but last week i got a brand new machine, compile takes 7 minutes now :)
16:47 count_leto well i do have a 1.x GHz Laptop... but the fan decided not to like me, and... died
16:47 count_leto so im having a laptop that boots up a bit, then says 'critical temperature reached: 105 C. Shutting down...'
16:47 count_leto argh
16:47 TreyHarris ouch!
16:48 count_leto but it's just the cable, so im going to try to sold it
16:48 lanny Water cool it.  /nod
16:48 lambdabot lanny: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:48 lanny lambdabot: @messages
16:48 lambdabot agentzh said 1d 10h 52m 41s ago: i've sent a mail to p6c. hopefully iblech and malon will fix the smoke server soon. thanks for the catch. :)
16:48 count_leto lanny: that would be a great idea
16:49 lanny Yeah.  It's tough on the warranty though.
16:49 count_leto I tried to ice cool it (with ice packed in a plastic bag), but i think i didnt hit the 'hot-spot'
16:49 lanny I coffee cooled mine the other day.  :(
16:49 TimToady just tape a vacuum cleaner to it.
16:49 TreyHarris hi TimToady!
16:49 TimToady what's cookin' (besides the laptop)?
16:50 count_leto TimToady: that's *not* funny :/
16:51 TimToady believe me--I empathize.
16:51 TreyHarris count_leto: check your email, you should have instructions for creating your svn login
16:51 TimToady but I often make jokes about things that aren't funny...
16:51 lanny It's hard to make jokes about things that are funny.  They don't need it.
16:52 TreyHarris true.  monkeys.  *giggle*  you don't need to make jokes about monkeys.  you just point out monkeys...
16:52 TimToady most comedians tread the fine line between laugther and tears
16:53 TimToady Obviously I need to figure out how to cry when I see monkeys...
16:54 TimToady maybe if they're flying butt monkeys...
16:54 TreyHarris TimToady: maybe if one bit you...
16:54 TreyHarris TimToady: but isn't that how Linux got its penguin?
16:54 lanny Flying butt penguins?
16:55 TimToady What You Don't Know About Tux
16:55 count_leto TreyHarris: I'll check later, maybe... got a load avg of about 4 atm
16:55 kanru joined perl6
17:00 frederico joined perl6
17:01 ofer0 joined perl6
17:02 lanny Hmm.  If Elbereth affixed the Silmiril as a lantern and banner to the mast wouldln't the ship have a mast?
17:03 rindolf joined perl6
17:03 rindolf Hi all.
17:03 rindolf ingy: here?
17:03 lanny Ah.  Maybe it's the prow she set it to and thus the shining.
17:04 rindolf Hmmm... ingy's been idle for 59 hours.
17:04 ingy rindolf: nope
17:04 ingy back on Tuesday
17:04 rindolf ingy: hi.
17:04 rindolf ingy: I commited the fix to IO::All.
17:04 ingy I really am only on for a minute
17:04 ingy thanks
17:05 ingy I'll release it Tuesday
17:05 rindolf ingy: OK.
17:05 ingy later! &
17:05 rindolf ingy: bye
17:05 rindolf ingy: thanks.
17:06 ofer0 joined perl6
17:06 pasteling "lanny" at 128.107.248.220 pasted "op0RoundRobin" (13 lines, 556B) at http://sial.org/pbot/20060
17:07 lanny Can anyone suggest how I can take the Val from op0Each and get the [Vscalar] I need?
17:07 vel joined perl6
17:14 TimToady lanny: I think it wouldn't describe it as "silver mast" if it were trying to claim the ship didn't have one...
17:14 TimToady unless JRRT was just looking for a filler word...
17:15 lanny It's a stretch but all elven ships might have had silver masts.  But yeah.
17:15 count_leto allright, I'm getting out of here. thanks for your assistance. :-)
17:15 count_leto left perl6
17:15 TreyHarris lanny: silver is a color or character as well as a substance.  it could be painted, or glinting in the light....
17:16 lanny The placement of the ';'s almost has me thinking the oar, sail, mast clause is just an aside though.
17:16 cjeris silver could be used figuratively to describe the color of birch or other pale wood?
17:16 TimToady I'm not sure elves believe in paint...
17:17 lanny Or Malorn (sp?)
17:17 lanny Been too long.  Need to re-read the books although not sure I can get up enough energy for the Silmirillion.
17:18 cjeris many woods are a silvery gray color after enough weathering, anyway.
17:18 lanny ooh.  Scary.  Might have stumbled onto a good coding of roundrobin()
17:18 lanny Sure wish I *knew* what I was doing instead of just casting around until stuff works.  :/
17:20 nothingmuch gaal: benewed on your english name =)
17:21 nothingmuch err
17:21 nothingmuch freudian slip
17:21 nothingmuch i meant engrish ;-)
17:21 TreyHarris TimToady: one of my coworkers waved me over the other day and showed me an essay from Paul Graham's last book, where he shows why ruby and lisp are better than perl because creating a closure-based accumulator takes three fewer syntactic elements in those two languages than in Perl 5.  the coworker wanted to know how it would be in Perl 6.  you'll be happy to know that placeholders and blocks always being closures has, according to graham at least, now ...
17:21 TreyHarris ... made Perl 6 as powerful as Ruby and Lisp. :)
17:21 nothingmuch fwiw, it's cool that lang4 is a syn for gaal in heb ;-)
17:23 lanny Hmm.  I always thought the partition was if a language *could* create a closure-based accumulator.  Would seem trivial to say Perl 6 now has builtin $*CLOSURE_BASED_ACCUMULATOR.(3).  We win!
17:25 TreyHarris lanny: i agree, i think it's silly.  but graham's assertion seems to be that the less syntactic elements required to do any given thing, the more powerful the language.  this follows i suppose from physics' definition of "power"... you wield more force with each keystroke...
17:25 TimToady that's like "there's only one measure of IQ"
17:25 TimToady someone needs to write "The Mismeasure of Programming Languages"
17:26 rindolf Hi nothingmuch
17:26 nothingmuch hi rindolf
17:26 nothingmuch what's up?
17:26 rindolf nothingmuch: G'mar Hatima Tova.
17:26 rindolf nothingmuch: I'm fine. Working on Test::Run.
17:26 rindolf nothingmuch: worked on Yapcom previously.
17:26 nothingmuch gabor's hackathon?
17:26 rindolf nothingmuch: what's up with you?
17:26 nothingmuch recovering HD
17:27 nothingmuch (well, now i'm done copying, but i'm still installing my env)
17:27 elmex joined perl6
17:27 nothingmuch and i finished packing for my hike
17:28 rindolf nothingmuch: I see.
17:28 rindolf nothingmuch: I had some hard-disk problems too.
17:29 nothingmuch of the software or hardware variety?
17:30 mdiep joined perl6
17:32 lanny TreyHarris: and in the face of macros it really is an either/or and not of degree since you can reduce the syntactic elements as far as desired.
17:37 DaGo joined perl6
17:38 rindolf nothingmuch: hardware.
17:38 rindolf nothingmuch: or at least I think it was hardware.
17:40 nothingmuch mine too =(
17:40 rindolf nothingmuch: I blogged about it.
17:40 nothingmuch i didn't ;-)
17:40 rindolf nothingmuch: OK. :-)
18:03 rashakil_ joined perl6
18:18 beppu_ joined perl6
18:19 lanny svnbot seems dead.
18:29 yts joined perl6
18:30 yts it's been a long time to build pugs...
18:33 rindolf yts: you mean that it took a long time to build it?
18:47 avar rindolf: that's still ambiguous:)
18:47 rindolf avar: why?
18:47 gaal yts: "make fast" instead of "make"
18:48 rindolf Hi gaal
18:48 yts i have stay in " #     Actual: undef
18:48 yts t/examples/all_parse....................................ok 32/160
18:48 yts " for a long time
18:48 rindolf gaal: Gmar Hatima Tova.
18:48 gaal nothingmuch: pinyin /.*ng$/ is not English /.*ng&/
18:48 nothingmuch .ng?
18:48 gaal s/&/$/
18:48 gaal "lang" doesn't sound like "language"
18:48 nothingmuch i just meant that גל is wave
18:48 nothingmuch גלים בים
18:49 avar rindolf: It can refer to make(1) time or how long it took to program it:)
18:49 gaal yts: you're in the tests now, not in pugs build proper
18:49 gaal so if you want to start playing around, you can interrupt make and start right away.
18:49 gaal rindolf: thanks.
18:49 yts i see
18:49 rindolf gaal: what's up besides?
18:50 yts but why it test so long @@
18:50 nothingmuch gaal: kapish
18:51 gaal yts: pugs isn't particularly tuned for speed yet. we have done a few rounds of optimizations, but not nearly as many as perl5 had undergone throughout its existence.
18:51 TimToady yts: it's a big test.  It is trying to compile all the examples just to see if they compile.
18:52 gaal rindolf: uh, not much.
18:52 rindolf Hi TimToady
18:52 rindolf gaal: OK.
18:52 TimToady hi
18:52 yts thanks
18:53 rindolf TimToady: what's up?
18:53 rindolf TimToady: I enjoyed your "State of the Onion 10"
18:54 rindolf I tried to slashdot it, but it wasn't published. Eventually chromatic got it slashdotted, though.
18:54 TimToady yts: you can do a ps for 'pugs' and see which one it thinks it's working on.
18:55 yts i have not make install yte
18:55 yts typo. yet
18:55 TimToady don't need make install
18:55 gaal yts: you don't have to.
18:55 TimToady rindolf: thanks
18:55 yts @@""
18:55 gaal I think I ran make install only once or twice ever.
18:55 gaal (for pugs that is...)
18:56 TimToady in fact, 'make install' is rather unrecommended right now.
18:56 rindolf TimToady: no problem.
18:56 yts why not make install @@, it a little weirt
18:56 gaal yts: can you explain how to read those smileys, which I suppose are frowneys?
18:56 lanny joined perl6
18:57 lanny ?list(1)
18:57 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
18:57 yts ok, i won't type this again
18:57 yts sorry
18:57 lanny ?eval list(1)
18:57 evalbot_r13721 is now known as evalbot_r13730
18:57 evalbot_r13730 1
18:58 TimToady ?eval List(1)
18:58 evalbot_r13730 ::List
18:58 lanny Shouldn't that be (1,)
18:58 gaal no, I was curious! I never saw those before.
18:58 gaal lanny: did you find the answer to your haskell question?
18:58 TimToady list() just puts the 1 into list context.
18:58 TimToady which the 1 ignores.
18:58 lanny Yep.  Well more stumbled across it.  Implemented roundrobin() and cat()
18:58 lanny aha
18:58 lanny Tricksy.
18:59 ajs_work TimToady: A while back you said that we were abandoning term constants where possible. Did you mean to include the math constants such as pi and e? Should they be $pi and $e respectively?
18:59 yts @@ ----> which means i feel confused
18:59 gaal what are roundrobin and cat?
18:59 lanny S29/Container
18:59 lanny roundrobin is like each but drops the undefs.  cat just concatenates its sliced arguments
18:59 TimToady originally from S09 and feed operators
19:00 TimToady so we can have useless-use-of-cat awards in Perl 6
19:00 lanny ?eval cat(1)
19:00 evalbot_r13730 (1,)
19:00 gaal roundrobin's a bit like zip*
19:00 glasser left perl6
19:00 gaal but flattened.
19:00 lanny Well zip returns tuples (really arrays?)
19:01 lanny ?eval roundrobin(1)
19:01 evalbot_r13730 (1,)
19:01 gaal rr = cat . zip    ?
19:01 lanny ?eval each(1;1..2;1..3)
19:01 evalbot_r13730 (1, 1, 1, undef, 2, 2, undef, undef, 3)
19:01 lanny ?eval roundrobin(1;1..2;1..3)
19:01 evalbot_r13730 (1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3)
19:02 gaal yts: cute!
19:03 TimToady ajs_work: obviously, those should be π and ℯ ☺
19:04 ajs_work but should they be $? and $?? Actually, I'm not sure about ?, but certainly ? was already in API/Math/Basic.pod
19:04 TimToady in general, I'm not worried if a few things like "pi" and "e" sneak through, since people won't be confused about whether they take arguments.
19:05 ajs_work What about Math::Basic vs. Num vs. Int, etc. Should I migrate the API doc to Num and (where integers are involved) Int?
19:05 * [particle] used to use an exception function named e() frequently
19:06 ajs_work [particle]: If it took parameters, you're fine ;)
19:07 ajs_work I'm still struggling to figure out some of the Array/Seq/List delineation, and I want to know what your thinking is on Int/Num/Math before I check in any of that
19:08 TimToady I don't believe in Math
19:08 TimToady it's not a type
19:09 ajs_work I think Ron intended it to be a library that provided the general math functions, but if we're going with types as the guiding rule for finding functions in S29, then I'll keep that in mind for the others too, and re-name / break up Math::Basic API
19:09 ajs_work Ahem. Rod that is
19:11 ajs_work I don't know if we can do that as easily for the stuff that's currently in OS, though. I'll think about that
19:11 araujo TimToady, hah
19:11 mdiep joined perl6
19:12 TimToady the OS can be viewed as a (singleton?) object.
19:12 ajs_work heh, well I suppose so ;)
19:12 TimToady I'm not sure what a Math object is...
19:12 ajs_work I think that's a chalkboard.
19:15 yts i have already make ...how should i run pugs ?
19:15 TimToady ./pugs
19:16 yts ohoh
19:16 TimToady was that o-hoh or oh-oh?
19:16 yts oh-oh~
19:17 yts i see :p
19:17 TimToady oh-oh is bad
19:17 yts maybe i can type oh-oh!
19:17 ajs_work heh
19:17 yts sorry, i just use as chinese
19:17 lanny Hmm.  Tempted to make eqv work for tests by sub infix:<eqp> ($a, $b) { $a.perl eq $b.perl; }.  It seems faster than eqv as well.
19:18 lanny Not sure it's a robust solution for the long term though.
19:19 TimToady well, eqv is defined in terms of serialization, but the hope is that both sides can be serialized lazily so it falsifies without having to completely serialize both sides first.
19:19 TimToady it's also not entirely clear how much canonicalization can go on
19:20 TimToady but that's why eqv has optional arguments to specify what you mean.
19:20 lanny A telling points.  Guess I'll live with :depends<eqv> for now.
19:20 TimToady and why the semantics of eqv are closely bound with cmp and sorting.
19:22 TimToady and why eqv should optionally take a signature saying which parts you want to compare.
19:23 TimToady hmm, a sig for sorting could use :1($foo), :0($bar) to sort on bar before foo...
19:24 TimToady unless we want to reserve that for radix conversion in binding somehow.
19:24 lanny The signatures as Comparitors for sort() didn't make a lot of sense to me.
19:24 mdiep joined perl6
19:25 lanny Sorry.  signature as Criterion
19:25 TimToady signatures are good at picking out and naming bits of things.  they're less good at specifying an order different from the positionals...
19:26 TimToady so maybe if you want that you go ahead and write the corresponding body.
19:26 TimToady sigs as Criteria is just for the cases where it can write the body for you.
19:26 theorbtwo joined perl6
19:27 lanny So are we talking:  sort :(Str $name, Num $val), @array_of_KeyVal_objects;  ?
19:27 TimToady there's some potential confusion there though with :($a,$b) looking like an old-fashioned comparator
19:28 lanny I think I'm missing how signatures get mapped to values.
19:28 TimToady so maybe the notation needs to clarify that it's binding the sig to a single $a arg.
19:28 TimToady that's what binding is.
19:32 lanny Is that binding still to be spelled out in the Synopses?  I'm looking at hits of 'signature' and 'signature binding' across them but don't seem to be finding anything appropriate.
19:34 TimToady see S06:1171.  this is a slight generalization of that idea.
19:38 lanny Ok.
19:38 TimToady basically, when you bind a signature the binder can pretend most objects are Captures and do something sensible to name the bits.
19:39 TimToady the generalization here is that sort will take the named bits and assume you just want them sorted in the order named, each according to its own type.
19:39 TimToady so numeric vs string automatically falls out.
19:39 TimToady for instance.
19:39 TimToady "is descending" does not fall out of the type info though.
19:39 lanny Right.  I figured that was the idea.  I'm just thinking how to add it into the sort() I've got.
19:40 TimToady probably need to way till Captures/Signatures are fully hacked in.
19:40 TimToady *wait
19:40 lanny There are some other little questions on sort() that came out of trying to implement it.
19:41 TimToady I've got a few minutes while I eat lunch over my laptop.
19:41 TimToady if they're heavy questions, though, p6l is fine.
19:42 lanny For instance a Pair Criterion is composed of a KeyExtractor and Comparitor.  But those can take descending, insensitive.  So could you have ( { +$^a} is descending => { ~$^a cmp ~$^b} is insensitive)?
19:42 lanny I should put them to p6l.  I'm sure you could resolve em but that would also give a wider view and record them on something a bit less transient.
19:43 TimToady I'm not sure the "return a number or string" approach is quite right, since we'd like to have that info at compile time.
19:44 TimToady and while we could inspect the body, it's not guaranteed to be there yet.
19:44 lanny Yeah.  But doing it all in Haskell right now is way beyond my level and doing it in Perl 6 wasn't.
19:44 lanny The core algorithms are working when I test stuff against Code for KeyExtractors and Comparitors
19:44 TimToady the advantage of the sigs is that you can see the types at compile time
19:45 * lanny nods
19:45 TimToady but there's no reason it can't fallback to runtime, I guess.
19:45 lanny I figured something like sort would end up deep in the language instead of up at the Prelude
19:45 TimToady hard to say--depends on how powerful P6 actually ends up.
19:45 TimToady we are making Captures and Signatures visible, after all.
19:46 TimToady well, need to commute...
19:46 lanny Laters.
19:47 theorbtwo (larry + work) == (work + larry)
19:47 TimToady afk &
20:01 yts i have build pugs and i can run pugs now. it's now a little like hugs...
20:01 Limbic_Region joined perl6
20:02 lanny Not surprising since it's built on top of Haskell.
20:04 yts so is there any thing i can do for pugs?
20:04 lanny Lots.  :)
20:04 yts i learn a little Haskell,
20:04 lanny Look through the source directories and read any READMEs or TASKS.
20:05 lanny I constantly go back to this http://search.cpan.org/~autrijus/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.12/lib/Pugs/Doc/Hack.pod
20:05 lambdabot Title: Pugs::Doc::Hack - How to hack on Pugs - search.cpan.org, http://tinyurl.com/km8q3
20:05 lanny The easiest thing to do is probably write tests and/or put smartlinks in the tests.
20:06 [particle] the algorithm is simple: 1 while do_something_useful( find_something_interesting() );
20:07 lanny Also it's not too bad to add simple operators that aren't in the language yet.  The monads can be a bit daunting at first but if you understand the IO monad it's easy to see what's going on.
20:07 lanny At least that's how it's been for me.
20:08 yts Hm...i think i should play perl6 first :p
20:09 lanny Just do that until you bump into something you want that isn't implemented.  It's very motivational.  :)
20:10 yts :)
20:13 yts my $gen = @*ARGS[0]; #what's this mean? take the first argument?
20:13 theorbtwo joined perl6
20:13 yts why does it use *?
20:13 nothingmuch see you guys on tuesday
20:15 lanny yts: You probably want to do a once-over read of all the Synopses.  http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/
20:15 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
20:15 lanny A lot of the syntax is covered there.
20:15 yts ok~
20:15 lanny If you want send me a /msg and I'll answer some questions to get you started.
20:15 theorbtwo or http://spec.pugscode.org/
20:15 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
20:16 theorbtwo (Which is likely really the same page with a nicer URL.)
20:29 mdiep joined perl6
20:30 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
20:32 ajs_work I wonder... would it be a good thing to add the various Unicode functions (such as the four forms of normalization) to S29's string operations along with uc, lc, etc?
20:35 justatheory joined perl6
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20:39 ajs_work I'll add some examples and see what people think
20:40 TimToady ajs_work++
20:41 yts what's the meaning of multiparadigmatic
20:44 ajs_work yts: utilizing multiple paradigms at once. For example, both functional and object oriented programming paradigms.
20:49 rashakil joined perl6
20:51 TimToady it means not being able to make up your mind what kind of programmer you want to be.
20:55 yts TimToady: why you can't make up your mind to a specific programmer
20:56 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
20:56 TimToady if I knew the answer to that, I'd be a different person
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21:10 [particle] i think timtoady has decided to be all things to perl people :)
21:12 [particle] ...or is that perl things to all people?
21:22 yts why perl6 define a lot of ways...to have comment...
21:22 [particle] there's more than one way to do it
21:23 yts i know it but don't you think it's too much?
21:24 [particle] i'm american, i'm not sure i understand the phrase "too much."
21:25 yts i  am reading "http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/S02.html" now, i found it contain many ways to write comment
21:25 lambdabot Title: S02
21:25 yts but why perl6 need so many ways just for comment
21:28 lanny joined perl6
21:50 Ikarus joined perl6
21:50 Ikarus anyone remember the operand chart drawn for Perl 6 and if it is still availible somewhere ?
21:56 dolmen joined perl6
21:56 Ikarus hrm, it is from 2004, wonder how valid it still is
21:57 Ikarus Anyone care to look ? http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/blog/code/PeriodicTable.html
21:57 lambdabot Title: Mark Lentczner's Journal, http://tinyurl.com/ysxg6
22:04 etzel joined perl6
22:06 SamB ouch
22:06 diotalevi_ joined perl6
22:07 SamB you know you have too many operators when you have to put them in a periodic table...
22:09 lanny Yes, and too many verbs when you have to have a dictionary.
22:10 SamB yeah, well, I mean, infix ops are all well and good, but I like to keep them in modules ;-)
22:10 lanny Ikarus: looks like mostly syntax changes.  Most of the operator concepts look there.  Not surprising since the concepts got defined (or were known) first-ish.
22:11 Ikarus lanny: hmmm, any chance you could point me to a document to update it from
22:11 Ikarus I actually like the format of the table
22:11 lanny heh.  http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/
22:11 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
22:12 lanny Although you could probably go a long with with pugs/docs/Perl6/Overview/*
22:14 lanny http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/docs/Perl6/Overview/
22:14 lambdabot Title: Revision 13736: /docs/Perl6/Overview, http://tinyurl.com/frbrv
22:26 Ikarus Hmmmm, I should make a version for web use, with hoovering on a operand gives you the docs for it
22:37 Limbic_Region joined perl6
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22:51 lanny @tell markstos re: t/unspecced/sort.t -- Was the place suggested when I asked in channel.  More than willing to move it to a better place if one is suggested.  (I was aiming for Prelude but sort() still seems a moving target.)
22:51 lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:52 TimToady @tell audreyt my new pet peeve is that "No compatible subroutine found" doesn't answer the question: "Compatible with what?"
22:52 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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