Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-10-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 stevan but like I said,.. I am not a Java programmer so I very well may have no idea what I am talking about ;)
00:00 stevan but right now it's time to go play Lego StarWars with my daughter :)
00:02 Limbic_Region stevan - I am optimizing for runtime speed and calling constructors/destructors fewer times is the win I am looking for
00:02 Limbic_Region I had considered String btw
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01:11 TreyHarris so someone enlighten me--what's "duck typing" if not dispatch purely by method name?
01:12 * TreyHarris has returned from a couple days battling a nasty flu
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03:41 root4o hi
03:41 root4o if I follow installation procedure
03:41 root4o in Pugs::Doc::Hack
03:42 root4o it will install pugs on its own dir... not in my distro dirs.. i.e. /usr...
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04:04 root4o what's the difference between  : use v6 AND use v6-alpha
04:11 root4o anybody here?
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06:41 root4o anyone here ?
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11:01 pmurias hi root4o,
11:01 pmurias use v6 requires perl 6.0.0, use v6-alpha is trickery to use the v6.pm module
11:02 pmurias he left 7 hours before :(
11:02 pmurias time--
11:03 pmurias well maybe he backlogs
11:06 pmurias :)
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12:27 shillo Hullo all!
12:29 shillo Just wanted to say (when anyone is awake) that I was testing lazy lists, and it seems that (1..Inf).map:{ $_/2 }[0] runs itself into infinite loop in the current SVN pugs.
12:29 shillo (and I'd assume that the lazy list test times out or something)
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13:40 Limbic_Region salutaitons all
14:07 pmurias Limbic_Region: hi
14:08 pmurias i looked at the perl5 script you were porting to java and it seems rather bloated
14:10 Limbic_Region pmurias - the Perl or the java?
14:10 pmurias the perl5 one
14:10 Limbic_Region the perl was something I whipped up in a jiffy to explain the functional equivalence of what I was trying to accomplish
14:11 Limbic_Region it was not optimized
14:11 Limbic_Region but since I don't know what you mean by bloat, I will need more context to comment further
14:12 pmurias i mean code size
14:13 Limbic_Region *shrug* - enough to get the point across
14:13 Limbic_Region in any case - my Java version works great except I run out of heap
14:13 Limbic_Region so now I have to make the code even more complex to help manage that
14:14 pmurias i didn't realise it was a java backport
14:14 pmurias it was quite fun striping it down though
14:16 pmurias i reduced it to 26,20,13 lines changeing the algorithm and removeing strictness in the latter case
14:16 pmurias how do you like java?
14:17 pmurias s/changeing/changing/
14:21 pmurias the java version seems rather advanced, you must be a very fast lerner
14:24 svnbot6 r14335 | audreyt++ | * prior.t: unTODO.
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14:31 Limbic_Region pmurias - not really a fast learner
14:31 Limbic_Region I took a 4 day professional course
14:31 Limbic_Region I think Java isn't nearly as evil as some would have us believe
14:32 Limbic_Region I think I found as many things to like about the language as I did to not like
14:32 Limbic_Region so I came out really neutral
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14:37 pmurias catching typos at compile time is propably the only thing i like about the language
14:39 pmurias i would propably use Scala if i wanted to target the JVM
14:42 Limbic_Region *shrug* - different strokes for different folks
14:43 Limbic_Region in any case, it was a 3 language project that should have just been one - Perl 6
14:43 * Limbic_Region can't wait for Xmas
14:47 pmurias what where the two other languages?
14:47 Limbic_Region Perl, C (via Inline::C) and Java
14:48 Limbic_Region the bulk in Perl of course
14:48 pmurias that's good :)
14:48 Limbic_Region I was hoping to have a working online demo of my results by Monday but I forgot to bring home my data files
14:49 SamB oops!
14:49 pmurias are you using your power-set script at work?
14:50 Limbic_Region no, I was playing at work
14:50 * Limbic_Region is allowed to work on personal projects that expand his knowledge that is applicable for real work related tasks
14:50 SamB cool
14:51 Limbic_Region yep
14:51 Limbic_Region and since I am an "Information Technology Specialist", just about anything falls into that category
14:52 * Limbic_Region checked the IRC logs and is amazed how quiet it has been
14:52 Limbic_Region is there a conference or something going on?
14:52 SamB heh
14:52 pmurias Limbic_Region: what is the upper string-size limit the java script can handle?
14:54 Limbic_Region pmurias - don't know as my longest string is 26 chars long
14:54 Limbic_Region the issue is that the hashset works across all strings
14:55 Limbic_Region and there are millions of those
14:55 Limbic_Region so I run out of heap
14:55 * Limbic_Region knows how to get around this but has yet to make the necessary modifications
14:55 Limbic_Region came to me as I woke up this morning
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14:56 Limbic_Region basically I am going to make the hashset a HoH in Perl terms - where level 1 is the length of the string
14:57 Limbic_Region once all possible strings for that level have been seen - gc it
14:57 Limbic_Region I just then need to remember not to recurse below that depth
14:57 Limbic_Region and provided I process my millions of strings based of increasing length I should be fine
14:58 pmurias pmurias is planing a none recursing version
14:59 Limbic_Region pmurias - good luck, I tried very unsuccessfully to make the optimizations with an iterative version
14:59 Limbic_Region myself and many of the monks at the Monastery came to the conclusion it was impossible
15:00 Limbic_Region pmurias - see http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=576101 for details
15:00 lambdabot Title: Powerset short-circuit optimization
15:01 Limbic_Region fwiw, I have written extremely fast and memory efficient powerset iterators in the past
15:01 Limbic_Region I have even written such iterators that were possible to "skip" portions of the powerset in certain situations
15:01 Limbic_Region I was unsuccessful in finding one here
15:05 pmurias Limbic_Region: you were unable to make the hash garbage collection optimazation with the iterative version
15:05 pmurias ?
15:05 Limbic_Region oh, no that's not the problem
15:06 Limbic_Region the problem with the iterative version is this
15:06 Limbic_Region say string one was ABCD, string two is ABCE, and string three is ABCFG
15:06 Limbic_Region they all share ABC, AB, AC, BC, A, B, C
15:06 Limbic_Region so why generate them at all in strings 2 and 3
15:07 pmurias in the recursive one you use a hash too
15:07 Limbic_Region yes, but the hash prevents recursion all together
15:07 Limbic_Region in an iterative version you would still touch every node and just not include it
15:07 Limbic_Region IOW - ABC would be seen in strings 2 and 3 but not AB, AC, BC, A, B, C
15:08 Limbic_Region once it sees it had seen this it would stop recursing
15:08 pmurias i see
15:08 Limbic_Region in fact, the recursive version is suboptimal for a single powerset
15:08 Limbic_Region it only has its advantages over many strings that have subsets in common
15:08 Limbic_Region which I designed specifically for my dataset
15:09 pmurias (by the way i was planing to use,was already used by Data::PowerSet)
15:09 Limbic_Region oh, well I have written things even better than the bitmap binary counting
15:10 Limbic_Region not to take anything away from Data::PowerSet
15:10 Limbic_Region but it does not know how to "skip" at all
15:10 Limbic_Region I have written iterators that can skip - under the right circumstances
15:11 Limbic_Region basically I had to generate the powerset in progressive order such that
15:11 Limbic_Region if your first 3 items exceeded a certain amount
15:11 Limbic_Region continuing to follow this powerset getting progressively larger was pointless
15:11 Limbic_Region yadda yadda
15:12 Limbic_Region so do you see how the gc optimization I am going to make is going to work now?
15:13 pmurias yes
15:14 Limbic_Region fwiw, the project is already finished - I am just trying to optimize the runtime a bit now
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16:07 svnbot6 r14336 | audreyt++ | * util/yaml_harness.pl: Remove the smoke-concurrent
16:07 svnbot6 r14336 | audreyt++ |   reduce-number-of-first-process bias again as the recent re-enabling
16:07 svnbot6 r14336 | audreyt++ |   of t/regex/ made ext/ not as heavy by comparison.
16:09 svnbot6 r14337 | audreyt++ | * Remove Judy from the Pugs build process.
16:09 svnbot6 r14337 | audreyt++ |   This is a pervasive change to avoid GC issues completely
16:09 svnbot6 r14337 | audreyt++ |   before the release, as the nature of addForeignPtrFinalizer's
16:09 svnbot6 r14337 | audreyt++ |   weird interaction with GHC is not fully diagnosed.
16:09 svnbot6 r14337 | audreyt++ |   Also, TVar/IORef based storage, which was exceedingly slow
16:09 svnbot6 r14337 | audreyt++ |   in GHC 6.4, now actually compares competitively with Judy maps.
16:09 svnbot6 r14337 | audreyt++ |   Judy is still more memory efficient and may be faster on some
16:09 svnbot6 r14337 | audreyt++ |   architectures, but its re-incoporation will have to wait until
16:09 svnbot6 r14337 | audreyt++ |   after release and a fuller understanding of its use of FFI/GC.
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16:18 audreyt hm, today was rather swamped with nonpugs tasks, mostly sleeping :/
16:19 * audreyt goes to rest some more and hopefully tomorrow will be more productive...
16:48 svnbot6 r14338 | audreyt++ | * Set/t/overload.t: Mark as :todo<bug>, instead of showstopping.
16:58 masak good night audrey
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18:16 svnbot6 r14339 | fglock++ | v6/emitter(2) - passes isa.t, for.t
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19:27 TimToady smoking r14339, after much hassle getting recompiled.
19:28 TimToady there's something out there in some subdirectory that still wants HsJudy that isn't cleared out by realclean.
19:28 TimToady don't know offhand which subdirectory, but src is a likely suspect.
19:29 TimToady anyway, blowing it away and re svning up seems to have fixed it.
19:30 TimToady also commented out some Judy stuff in Makefile.PL, not sure whether that was necessary or not.
19:32 TimToady lunch &
19:45 avar wrt the sub prototypes in p6, is there a mechanism for naming arguments in side lists in the argument list
19:45 avar like def sub((a, b), c); and x = (1, 2); y = 3; sub(x, y)
19:45 avar a = 1, b = 2, c = 3;
19:45 avar (python example)
20:07 TimToady avar: sure, see S06:1128 "Unpacking array parameters"
20:08 svnbot6 r14340 | lwall++ | Makefile.PL: more Judy commentage
20:12 TimToady yay, my 1st 100%
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21:00 avar TimToady: neato
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21:22 masak I get this when running make:
21:22 masak ghc-6.4.1: ghc-6.4.1: panic! (the `impossible' happened, GHC version 6.4.1): unknown exception
21:22 masak not too reassuring...
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21:22 masak maybe it really is time to make that GHC upgrade
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21:24 SamB now that 6.6 has been released, it might be easier
21:28 Limbic_Region salutations all
21:31 avarab eval: $^O
21:32 buubot avarab:  OS/2 Warp
21:32 avarab is now known as avar
21:32 Limbic_Region ?eval $*OS
21:32 evalbot_r14334 is now known as evalbot_r14340
21:32 evalbot_r14340 user error (Incompatible version number for compilation unit␤Consider removing blib6/lib/Prelude.pm.yml and make it again␤)␤pugs: user error (*** *** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤        at <prelude> line 784, column 9-46␤           <prelude> line 784, column 9-46␤    at)␤
21:33 Limbic_Region well, that doesn't look so good
21:33 Limbic_Region anyone with sudo privs on feather about?
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21:56 avar !eval: sub foo (Int $x) { $x } foo(5);
21:56 avar ?eval sub foo (Int $x) { $x } foo(5);
21:56 evalbot_r14340 user error (Incompatible version number for compilation unit␤Consider removing blib6/lib/Prelude.pm.yml and make it again␤)␤pugs: user error (*** *** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤        at <prelude> line 784, column 9-46␤           <prelude> line 784, column 9-46␤    at)␤
21:57 SamB eek
21:57 SamB fake newlines
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22:00 avar Anyway I was wondering about something, S06 shows: sub prefix:<moo> and sub prefix:{"moo"} as being equivalent and sub circumfix:<a b> equivalent to sub circumfix:{"a", "b"}
22:00 avar then later macro circumfix:«<!-- -->» ($text) is parsed / .*? / { "" } is shown as an example
22:00 avar "Whitespace may never be part of the name (except as separator within a <...> or «...» slice, as in the example above)."
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22:01 avar Isn't the <> there just a quote operator, then saying that there is some whitespace excemption is a bit misleading since it would just be equivalent to macro circumfix:{"<!--", "-->"}
22:02 avar Or am I completely wrong here?
22:03 avar I.e. it's not at all part of the operator name any more than " " is part of one of the array items in @a if my @a = <a b c d>;
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23:00 nothingmuch @seen cmarcelo
23:00 lambdabot Last time I saw cmarcelo was when I left #darcs, #gentoo-haskell, #ghc, #haskell, #haskell-blah, #haskell-overflow, #haskell.es, #haskell.it, #haskell.se, #haskell_ru, #oasis, #perl6 and #scannedinavi
23:00 lambdabot an 4d 20h 37m 13s ago, and .
23:00 nothingmuch very specific =)
23:01 Limbic_Region yeah
23:01 Limbic_Region so is anyone else unable to build pugs
23:01 Limbic_Region or is it just once again Win32/MinGW?
23:10 jdv79 strawberry?
23:14 Limbic_Region no, MinGW
23:14 TimToady I had a lot of trouble rebuilding.
23:14 Limbic_Region or rather
23:14 TimToady on Linux
23:14 Limbic_Region I have no idea why I said MinGW
23:15 Limbic_Region that should have nothing to do with the Pugs build
23:15 TimToady my error was that it was still trying to link in HsJudy
23:15 * Limbic_Region tries again
23:15 TimToady eventually I blew away src/ and several other subdirs and re svnup'd
23:15 Limbic_Region ah
23:16 Limbic_Region I was wondering about that
23:16 Limbic_Region is there a way to tell svn update every file anyway
23:16 TimToady something isn't getting realcleaned I think
23:16 TimToady but I didn't have the patience to chase it down.
23:17 Limbic_Region ok, will just get liberal with rmdir /s
23:17 TimToady well, I don't keep anything of my own in the subdirectories as a matter of policy so that I can do that.
23:17 TimToady it was *probabl& src
23:17 TimToady *probably* even
23:18 Limbic_Region neither do I
23:18 TimToady but I also blew away several other dirs so I can't say for sure, and it kinda sucks to get all the way through and have it fail again
23:19 TimToady I think "realclean" fails the DRY principle.
23:19 TimToady just as I think keeping a list of force_todos in a separate file is a recipe for disaster.
23:21 TimToady I know there have been systems that actually tracked what files were produced by the various subprocesses in a build so they automatically know what to clean up.  Unfortunately make has always been a bit too simpleminded that way.
23:22 Limbic_Region well, I got really liberal with what got removed
23:22 TimToady we'll I've done that, and regretted it.  :)
23:22 TimToady *well
23:23 Limbic_Region I left t examples and a few others I didn't think could possibly have anything to do with building alone
23:24 TimToady I did discover that if you blow away blib6 but not ext, you end up having to go through and remove all the pm_to_blib "touch" files.  :/
23:24 TimToady another example of braindead makery...
23:28 Limbic_Region heh, it thinks I don't have ghc 6.6
23:30 TimToady did you install ghc 6.6 in one of your subdirectories?  :)
23:30 Limbic_Region no, I have been building ghc 6.6 from source prior to it being released as 6.6
23:31 Limbic_Region so it reports 6.5
23:31 TimToady I see.
23:31 Limbic_Region building from source (not bootstrapping) isn't as painful as some might lead you to believe
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23:35 Limbic_Region will your work project (or parts thereof) ever see the light of day?
23:36 TimToady not likely--it's in support of some proprietary hardware.
23:36 Limbic_Region oh
23:37 Limbic_Region was hoping to see a sample representation of your code applied to a real problem
23:38 TimToady unfortunately the people paying me to work on a real problem would have a real problem with that...
23:38 Limbic_Region right
23:39 gnuvince TimToady: where do you work?
23:39 Limbic_Region 92 of 92 compiled....
23:39 TimToady across the street from Google.
23:39 TimToady links okay?
23:39 * Limbic_Region hugs TimToady
23:40 TimToady ...cant...breathe...
23:40 * Limbic_Region releases the bear hug
23:40 Limbic_Region how well does it smoke?
23:40 TimToady huh huh huh huh
23:40 TimToady well, mine went 100%
23:40 Limbic_Region nice - speed?
23:41 TimToady couple minutes slower than my previous run, prolly statistically insignif
23:41 TimToady given there were other things running on my computer
23:42 Limbic_Region audreyt still hoping to release before Monday her time?
23:43 TimToady well, she's got one day if so.
23:43 TimToady it seems pretty solid from the Linux perspective at least.
23:44 Limbic_Region I didn't think there was a lot left on her list
23:44 TimToady probably most of the remaining work is changelogging...
23:44 Limbic_Region well most of the Win32 issues aren't real issues
23:44 Limbic_Region yeah, she always asks for help on that and I always feel bad for not helping more
23:44 TimToady the eqv thing
23:46 TimToady or maybe it's just not reading the Perl 6 code in text mode...
23:46 Limbic_Region hard to say how many are due to the eqv thing but more than 1
23:46 TimToady isn't Windows supposed to translate crlf to \n for you?
23:46 buubot correct syntax is: translate to/from language string
23:47 Limbic_Region running smoke now
23:47 Limbic_Region TimToady - I don't think so
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23:48 Limbic_Region certain files opened up in notepad look like everything is jammed on one line
23:48 Limbic_Region opened in wordpad look normal
23:48 TimToady then why did we add binmode to Perl?
23:48 TimToady well, but that's the opposite problem.
23:49 Limbic_Region well, perl does the right thing
23:49 Limbic_Region meaning a file with \r\n or \n both work as expected with <$fh>
23:50 Limbic_Region I don't try and understand windows - I just try and make it get out of my way and stay there
23:50 TimToady but if you look at the string in Perl 5, it just as a newline.
23:50 TimToady s/as/has/
23:51 Limbic_Region well, I know $/ is "\n" by default and "\n" takes on the meaning of the platform
23:51 Limbic_Region but
23:51 TimToady but it seems like Haskell isn't maintaining a \r free zone.
23:51 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
23:51 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
23:52 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 24.35.57.240 pasted "example of the eqv problem" (21 lines, 448B) at http://sial.org/pbot/20438
23:55 TimToady looks like slurp is defaulting to binary rather than text.
23:56 TimToady whatever it's defaulting to, it's not the same as the parser...
23:57 Limbic_Region right
23:57 TimToady is the \r on the expected or on the actual?
23:58 Limbic_Region let me think about this
23:58 Limbic_Region the \r is in the .t file
23:58 Limbic_Region so expected
23:58 TimToady you can't deduce this from whether it's in the .t file
23:58 Limbic_Region I mean if I open the .t file in notepad it is fubar
23:59 TimToady oh, so the newline policy is wrong on the file maybe?
23:59 Limbic_Region that's a possibility
23:59 TimToady hmm.

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