Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-10-21

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 audreyt thus fulfilling one of TimToady's explicit design goals
00:00 Limbic_Region oooh, shiny
00:00 Limbic_Region I just happen to have 2 processors
00:00 audreyt what a surprise, me too
00:00 audreyt re melatonin. no. should I?
00:03 TimToady imagine a beowolf cluster of pugses...
00:03 svnbot6 r14460 | seano++ | * Guarantee a single terminating semicolon when evaluating input from REPL.
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00:05 holoway audreyt: it will help you get your sleep cycle back
00:06 audreyt holoway: ah. that's a good thing
00:06 TimToady when will Haskell get GPU support?  :)
00:06 audreyt wonder how it'd interact with all sorts of brain altering chemicals I'm using...
00:07 audreyt TimToady: now? http://conal.net/Vertigo/
00:07 lambdabot Title: The Vertigo GPU compiler
00:07 TimToady okay, how 'bout cell support? :)
00:07 audreyt another BSD licensed thing from Microsoft Research
00:08 audreyt as in organic computer? no idea :)
00:08 TimToady IBM cell
00:09 TimToady and PS3, is it?  think so...
00:09 audreyt TimToady: there's only design not code yet: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Yhc/Ideas​#Proof_of_concept_port_to_Cell_architecture
00:09 TimToady I think it'd be cool if ==> could feed cell processors on a PS3
00:09 lambdabot Title: Yhc/Ideas - HaskellWiki, http://tinyurl.com/ydxupr
00:10 holoway audreyt: I would probably talk to your doctor about that
00:10 audreyt hmm, interesting arch
00:10 holoway audreyt: it can have some effects on other brain chemicals, likely dopamine levels
00:10 audreyt holoway: k :)
00:10 TimToady yeah, more for pipelining than S
00:10 TimToady SIMD
00:10 holoway but I am not a doctor :)
00:12 Limbic_Region audreyt - it is produced naturally by the body to regulate your circada rhythms
00:12 Limbic_Region artificial dose "resets" your clock
00:12 Limbic_Region sosorry was AFK
00:12 TimToady or so goes the theory.
00:13 Limbic_Region my experience is that it works only if taken ocassionally
00:13 Limbic_Region to try and take it as a sleep aid regularly renders it useless
00:13 TimToady it's likely to be considerably milder than the stuff you're taking, so it might just have no effect.
00:14 * justatheory goes
00:15 audreyt well, forced wakeup-to-sunlight in the morning for today and the next few days will probably do me good
00:15 audreyt bbiab...
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00:59 avar Speakin of which, I need sunlight
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01:54 svnbot6 r14461 | seano++ | * always display errors, even when trailing semi
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02:43 svnbot6 r14462 | fglock++ | v6/runtime
02:43 svnbot6 r14462 | fglock++ | - added Pugs::Runtime::Perl6::ReadOnly & ReadWrite cell types
02:43 svnbot6 r14462 | fglock++ | v6/emitter(2)
02:43 svnbot6 r14462 | fglock++ | - fixed internal method names: set->STORE, get->FETCH, pair->Pair
02:43 svnbot6 r14462 | fglock++ | - typing support is in place (not used yet)
02:43 svnbot6 r14462 | fglock++ | - binding to Value makes a Scalar read-only
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03:48 fglock I didn't know this - it wasn't commented here: http://freenode.net/news.shtml
03:48 lambdabot Title: freenode news: 23 September 2006
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03:59 audreyt SMP parallelism implemented on junctions
03:59 audreyt running a smoke with +RTS -N2 to see if it breaks stuff...
04:00 audreyt the hyperops need some thinking
04:00 audreyt in @a.>>meth, unlike with junctions, the results still need to be ordeed
04:01 audreyt even though the evaluation order may be unordered
04:02 * audreyt ponders the paragraph in S03 that says "[Conjecture: we could
04:02 audreyt allow dependencies that assume top-down visitation and only leaves
04:02 audreyt sibling calls unordered.]"
04:02 audreyt and how that translates to parallelization strategies...
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04:05 fglock audreyt: it could preprocess into tuples [ $n, $a[$n].meth ]
04:06 fglock pairs, even
04:06 svnbot6 r14463 | putter++ | Regexp-Engine-Reentrant - Ripping out crud.  Much still to go.  No regressions.
04:07 audreyt yeah, that's what I'm going to do
04:07 audreyt have it return a Set of (ArrayIndex, Val)
04:08 audreyt funny how
04:08 audreyt $ env GHCRTS=-N1 ./pugs -e 'sub f ($x) { $x.say } f(any(1..10))'
04:08 audreyt gets me
04:09 audreyt 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 3
04:09 audreyt each on a line of its own
04:09 audreyt but
04:09 audreyt $ env GHCRTS=-N2 ./pugs -e 'sub f ($x) { $x.say } f(any(1..10))'
04:09 audreyt 12096148
04:09 audreyt 753
04:09 audreyt and then the rest of newlines
04:09 putter curious
04:10 audreyt it preempted between the print and the \n
04:10 audreyt I think
04:10 putter is say supposed to be atomic?
04:10 audreyt wouldn't really expect it to be
04:11 eviltwin_b not too surprising if they're output separately and there's no buffering
04:11 audreyt I mean, not acrross buffer boundaries for sure
04:12 audreyt hm, tests fail.
04:12 audreyt our ++ is not atomic within a STM boundary.
04:12 audreyt duh. ;) fixing
04:12 eviltwin_b (buffering inside say() that is, in the same process the standard buffering would be largely irrelevant)
04:14 audreyt fortunately that's easily fixed.
04:17 audreyt this is interesting, as all the "safe" ops in Prim.hs needs to be inspected for atomicity...
04:17 norageek2 is now known as norageek
04:19 audreyt TimToady: may we safely assume all the postassignment operators do not cause side effects?
04:19 audreyt except for .= that is, which is treated separately anyway
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04:20 TimToady postassignment?
04:20 audreyt += -= *=
04:20 audreyt **= etc
04:20 audreyt that is they implicitly place "atomically" within
04:21 TimToady you mean other than the main one.
04:21 audreyt $x += 2; # guaranteed to be atomic to other threads
04:21 TimToady seems like it should be pretty atomic to me.
04:21 audreyt er, I mean it doesn't have effects other than the assignment itself, yes.
04:21 audreyt cool, done
04:23 putter assignment itself might include type checking.  what else?  do we have "observers"?  (ie, call me if this variable is assigned to)
04:24 audreyt well the variable can tie STORE
04:24 audreyt that counts as the assignment itself
04:24 audreyt it's more like, if ++ is atomic, then so should +=1
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04:26 putter perhaps most users will  use pragma expressions_are_atomic;
04:26 svnbot6 r14464 | audreyt++ | * Makefile.PL: Enable -threaded even when we embed an nonthreaded Perl5.
04:26 svnbot6 r14464 | audreyt++ |   Of course the Perl5-land variables can't be made atomic (they'll just
04:26 svnbot6 r14464 | audreyt++ |   be shared 5005thread-style), but GHC 6.6's SMP supports depends on its
04:26 svnbot6 r14464 | audreyt++ |   -threaded runtime, and it's just too good to pass. :-)
04:27 audreyt putter: but anything that does IO can't be atomic...
04:27 audreyt "say", say.
04:27 audreyt unless we ignore its return value :)
04:27 TimToady durn monads...
04:27 audreyt if so then we can put it into unsafeIOtoSTM
04:28 audreyt but hey, &say returning true is what makes it cooler than Ruby!
04:28 audreyt # http://weblog.lonelylion.com/2006/10​/16/why-perl-6-is-better-than-ruby/
04:29 lambdabot Title: Lonely Lion » Blog Archive » Why Perl 6 is better than Ruby, http://tinyurl.com/uqg8g
04:29 putter sigh
04:29 TimToady well, there you have it.
04:31 putter end of day &
04:33 audreyt env GHCRTS=-N2 perl util/prove6 t/junction/*.t
04:33 audreyt ppassed. committing
04:34 audreyt now let's see about hyperops...
04:35 svnbot6 r14465 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Junc: Autothread (literally!) any calculation involving
04:35 svnbot6 r14465 | audreyt++ |   junctions, by spawning GHC-land microthreads that can then be
04:35 svnbot6 r14465 | audreyt++ |   distributed across CPUs, with GHC 6.6+ and setting the GHCRTS
04:35 svnbot6 r14465 | audreyt++ |   environment variable to "-Nx", where x is the number of CPUs
04:35 svnbot6 r14465 | audreyt++ |   you'd like to throw at Pugs.
04:35 svnbot6 r14466 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim: Make ++ and -- atomic.
04:35 TimToady now if only we had real quantum computers...
04:36 audreyt -N*
04:37 audreyt most of the audience today knows nothing about perl. so I get away saying
04:38 audreyt "in Perl 6, we think of a function as compiled in three different ways, depending on the kind of evaluation strategy you'd like to use: either you use it just for the side effects, or you'd like an lazily evaluated stream, or you'd like an eagerly evaluated value"
04:38 * eviltwin_b wonders if he can convince xchat2 to only respond to "perl" in the other channels :>
04:39 audreyt as if it was the motivation all along :)
04:39 TimToady :)
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04:40 audreyt and before they've read the Fortress spec, Perl6's treatment on this is seen as especially brilliant :)
04:40 TimToady I'm certainly on record as saying we're designing Perl to be better than we know how to make it.  :)
04:40 audreyt that's so true...
04:41 audreyt fortunately most of them we don't have to make it ourselves, as Pugs is mostly glue code nowadays...
04:41 audreyt s/before they've read/because they've read/
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04:47 Khisanth eviltwin_b: if you have it on highlight, no
04:48 eviltwin_b yeh.  just have to deal I guess :/
04:48 audreyt cool, [1,2,3].>>say just printed "1\n3\n2\n"
04:48 audreyt since the order of side effects are not guaranteed
04:48 audreyt that seems to be correct
04:50 TimToady works for me.
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04:58 audreyt 'k, fully implemented. seeing if tests break...
05:01 audreyt seems to work just fine. committing
05:04 TimToady smokin'
05:04 svnbot6 r14467 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim.List: All Hyper operators, including @foo.>>method,
05:04 svnbot6 r14467 | audreyt++ |   are autothreaded similar to junctions.  With GHCRTS=-N2 and
05:04 svnbot6 r14467 | audreyt++ |   above, that means the order of evaluation is impredictable.
05:04 svnbot6 r14467 | audreyt++ |   although the return values will still be ordered as usual.
05:04 svnbot6 r14467 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Internals: Move replicateM to it because
05:04 svnbot6 r14467 | audreyt++ |   we use it all over the place now for parallelization...
05:05 audreyt note that during hyperizing a "resetT" is placed to guarantee atomicity. that means full reentrant continuations _cannot_ be invoked by one of the spawned threads
05:05 audreyt although control exceptions and other exceptions continues to work as usual.
05:05 audreyt that's probably not too strict a restriction, and I can't think of a way to preserve multiple continuation cursors during hyperizing...
05:06 audreyt since they are conceptually occuring on different machines, and continuation cursors generally don't resume across machines unless you serialize them
05:06 audreyt which we definitely don't want to do for hyprizing
05:07 audreyt because of the heavy cost of snapshotting the memory etc
05:07 TimToady yes, that's all part of the hyperpromise.
05:09 audreyt smoking with -N2
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05:20 audreyt TimToady: control exceptions.
05:20 audreyt ['last', 'next'].>>eval
05:20 audreyt the hyperizer collects both exceptions just fine
05:20 audreyt what does it do with them?
05:20 audreyt well, not eval
05:20 audreyt but you get the idea
05:20 audreyt actually, eval would work here too
05:21 TimToady more likely than those are warning control exceptions.
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05:22 audreyt what does that mean operationally?
05:22 TimToady depends on whether some CONTROL block somewhere suppresses them.
05:23 audreyt sure. but what I mean is
05:23 audreyt when you say
05:23 audreyt map { .eval } ('last', 'next')
05:23 audreyt last happens, next never does
05:23 audreyt but on the hyperizing instance
05:23 audreyt we get result of both
05:23 audreyt so:
05:23 audreyt we can either choose the first exception that got produced and follow it
05:24 audreyt or convert the all into one warning
05:24 audreyt or do something else
05:24 audreyt or, well because we retain the order
05:24 audreyt still just do the first one, in this case "last"
05:24 audreyt by waiting for all hyper threads to complete always
05:24 TimToady could have a pecking order.
05:25 TimToady so last always beats next, for instance.
05:25 TimToady I suppose if a hyper is going to produce a lot of identical warnings, it would be friendly to try to coalesce them a bit...
05:26 audreyt indeed
05:26 TimToady unless they include the data, in which case it gets harder to factor out the common parts.
05:27 TimToady as I said on, I think, p6l, exceptions within hypers are a good reason for unthrown exceptions.
05:27 audreyt smoke's all good.
05:28 TimToady still on all_parse.t, grumble...
05:30 TimToady gotta get up early tomorrow, so likely to turn in soon.
05:30 TimToady anything else on your mind?
05:30 audreyt not anything pressing
05:30 audreyt it's just I feel much more alive not having to answer $job emails for the next three weeks :)
05:31 audreyt sleep well, thanks for the mapreduce primitives :)
05:31 TimToady you're welcome, I hope. :)
05:31 TimToady zzz &
05:36 audreyt 07:35 < dons> audreyt: so now we just need to finish the DPH+GPU library off
05:36 audreyt 07:36 < dons> so you can run your maps and reduces on seanl's GPU library
05:36 audreyt 07:36 < dons> oh, something else we're working on down here at unsw
05:36 audreyt 07:36 < dons> folds,scanls,maps,filters on the gpu directly
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05:36 audreyt 07:36 < dons> as a backend to GHC parallelism
05:37 audreyt (from #ghc.) more free toys on the way in :)
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07:25 dduncan question: I'm now writing the slides/notes for a 45-minute-ish tutorial for general programmers on how to make a RDBMS from scratch, which I intend to give locally at a Perl-Mongers meeting et al, as well as propose for international conferences in 2007 ... I thought it may be good to store this work in progress in the Pugs repository, but I'm wondering where specifically may be best
07:25 dduncan er, I'll try that again in a minute ...
07:26 dduncan question: I'm now writing the slides/notes for a 45-minute-ish tutorial for general programmers on how to make a RDBMS from scratch, which I intend to give locally at a Perl-Mongers meeting et al, as well as propose for international conferences in 2007 ... I thought it may be good to store this work in progress in the Pugs repository, but I'm wondering where specifically may be best
07:27 audreyt either ext/Rosetta/ or docs/talks will be fine
07:27 audreyt anywhere you feel like
07:27 dduncan while it ought to be generally useful, it may be specifically useful to Perl 6 dev in general, and I preferred docs/
07:27 dduncan okay ... it could always be moved later
07:28 audreyt exactly
07:40 dduncan okay, done
07:40 svnbot6 r14468 | Darren_Duncan++ | first whack at a 'how to make your own RDBMS from scratch in 30 days' tutorial notes/slides, for a local Perl Mongers talk in Nov, and maybe international conference talks in 2007
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07:59 audreyt journal up
08:00 * audreyt waves and fades back to sleep &
08:17 svnbot6 r14469 | raptor++ | added package-scoped named subs tests
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08:21 root4o hi
08:22 root4o anyone here
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08:44 svnbot6 r14471 | raptor++ | rm named_subs.t
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09:08 masak a question arose in my mind after reading TimToady++'s http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.language/26610
09:08 lambdabot Title: nntp.perl.org - perl.perl6.language (26610), http://tinyurl.com/yxw5vr
09:08 masak what if the perl6 programmer defined two operators with the same precedence level?
09:09 masak and with conflicting associativity
09:09 masak how far would she get in doing this?
09:09 masak i.e. willfully trying to create an ambiguous situation
09:10 masak I was about to mail this to p6l, but I couldn't find in the specs how to define ops with a certain prec level and assoc direction
09:10 audreyt grep for is assoc('right')
09:10 masak oki
09:10 audreyt and is tighter
09:12 masak found them, in S06
09:13 masak are these two implemented? ("is assoc" and "is tighter")
09:13 audreyt assoc is
09:13 audreyt tighter is not
09:13 audreyt just not felt the need for it
09:13 audreyt is probably trivial :)
09:13 masak but the problem should be able to be created in pugs right now?
09:13 masak for increased effect :)
09:13 audreyt well just declare two infix with different assoc
09:13 audreyt that's it
09:13 masak right ho
09:13 * masak declares...
09:14 audreyt t/operators/operator_overloading.t has the syntax
09:14 masak thx
09:14 audreyt np :) *thunk*
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09:21 masak turns put pugs dies with "ambiguous use of a right associative operator"
09:21 masak which seems sane in a way
09:21 masak i think
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09:29 * masak sends the p6l email anyway :)
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11:37 rindolf Hi all!
11:37 rindolf I wrote two Perl Foundations Proposals and could use your input - see http://www.shlomifish.org/File​s/files/emails/TPF-Proposals/ . Please read them and comment.
11:37 lambdabot Title: Index of /Files/files/emails/TPF-Proposals, http://tinyurl.com/ydeeg6
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11:43 masak rindolf: good initiative. I hope your proposals are accepted
11:45 rindolf masak: thanks.
11:45 rindolf masak: any comments?
12:15 nothingmuch ingy: ping
12:15 lambdabot nothingmuch: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:15 nothingmuch @moosages
12:15 lambdabot Alias_ said 1d 3h 34m 28s ago: You don't have any new messages.
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12:35 rindolf Hi nothingmuch
12:35 rindolf nothingmuch: I wrote two Perl Foundations Proposals and could use your input - see http://www.shlomifish.org/File​s/files/emails/TPF-Proposals/ .
12:36 lambdabot Title: Index of /Files/files/emails/TPF-Proposals, http://tinyurl.com/ydeeg6
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12:51 masak rindolf: only that I think they are both clear and to the point, which is a good thing
12:51 rindolf masak: OK.
12:51 rindolf masak: thanks.
12:53 Limbic_Region (waking up to your car horn blaring non-stop)--
12:54 Limbic_Region (pulling horn fuse and saving $800 on replacing the airbag assembly)++
12:56 Patterner (buying a strap-on replacement horn for $9.99 from a tv shopping channel)++
12:56 Limbic_Region heh
13:08 nothingmuch (buying a strap-on for $9.99 from a tv shopping channel)--
13:13 nothingmuch @seen cmarcello?
13:13 lambdabot I haven't seen cmarcello?.
13:13 nothingmuch @seen cmarcelo
13:14 lambdabot I saw cmarcelo leaving #perl6 2d 8h 26m 51s ago, and .
13:14 nothingmuch @seen audreyt
13:14 lambdabot audreyt is in #ghc, #haskell and #perl6. I last heard audreyt speak 3h 59m 37s ago.
13:14 * nothingmuch better take this to #haskell
13:17 xinming ?eval  grep m:perl5 /(1|2|3|4|5)/, (1..100);
13:17 evalbot_r14471 Error: Cannot cast from VList [VInt 1,VInt 2,VInt 3,VInt 4,VInt 5,VInt 6,VInt 7,VInt 8,VInt 9,VInt 10,VInt 11,VInt 12,VInt 13,VInt 14,VInt 15,VInt 16,VInt 17,VInt 18,VInt 19,VInt 20,VInt 21,VInt 22,VInt 23,VInt 24,VInt 25,VInt 26,VInt 27,VInt 28,VInt 29,VInt 30,VInt 31,VInt 32,VInt 33,VInt 34,VInt 35,VInt 36,VInt 37,VInt 38,VInt 39,VInt 40,VInt 41,VInt 42,VInt 43,VInt 44,VInt 45,VInt 46,VInt 47,VInt 48,VInt 49,VInt 50,VInt 51,VInt 52,VInt 53,VInt
13:17 xinming anyone here can tell me why this would cause error please?
13:19 Limbic_Region ?eval grep m:p5/(1|2|3|4|5)/, 1..100;
13:19 evalbot_r14471 Error: Cannot cast from VList [VInt 1,VInt 2,VInt 3,VInt 4,VInt 5,VInt 6,VInt 7,VInt 8,VInt 9,VInt 10,VInt 11,VInt 12,VInt 13,VInt 14,VInt 15,VInt 16,VInt 17,VInt 18,VInt 19,VInt 20,VInt 21,VInt 22,VInt 23,VInt 24,VInt 25,VInt 26,VInt 27,VInt 28,VInt 29,VInt 30,VInt 31,VInt 32,VInt 33,VInt 34,VInt 35,VInt 36,VInt 37,VInt 38,VInt 39,VInt 40,VInt 41,VInt 42,VInt 43,VInt 44,VInt 45,VInt 46,VInt 47,VInt 48,VInt 49,VInt 50,VInt 51,VInt 52,VInt 53,VInt
13:19 Limbic_Region odd
13:19 xinming maybe a bug. :-)
13:19 xinming ?eval  grep m:perl5 /(1|2|3|4|5)/, [1..100];
13:20 evalbot_r14471 Error: Cannot cast from VList [VList [VInt 1,VInt 2,VInt 3,VInt 4,VInt 5,VInt 6,VInt 7,VInt 8,VInt 9,VInt 10,VInt 11,VInt 12,VInt 13,VInt 14,VInt 15,VInt 16,VInt 17,VInt 18,VInt 19,VInt 20,VInt 21,VInt 22,VInt 23,VInt 24,VInt 25,VInt 26,VInt 27,VInt 28,VInt 29,VInt 30,VInt 31,VInt 32,VInt 33,VInt 34,VInt 35,VInt 36,VInt 37,VInt 38,VInt 39,VInt 40,VInt 41,VInt 42,VInt 43,VInt 44,VInt 45,VInt 46,VInt 47,VInt 48,VInt 49,VInt 50,VInt 51,VInt 52,VInt 5
13:20 Limbic_Region ?eval grep {$_ ~~ any(1, 2, 3, 4, 5)}, 1..100;
13:20 evalbot_r14471 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
13:20 Limbic_Region hrm
13:20 * Limbic_Region is too tired to think ATM
13:21 xinming hmm, I think the problem is, in perl 6, grep needs a "closure" instead of a regex...
13:21 xinming but
13:21 * xinming isn't sure about this
13:26 rindolf Does anyone know how I can subscribe to the XML-RSS bugs traffic on rt.cpan.org?
13:27 wilx Heh.
13:27 wilx I mean...XML-RSS really has a lot of attention.
13:27 alech joined perl6
13:27 wilx And still the reported bug was unfixed for more than 3 years.
13:29 alech Hi, I'm just trying to get acquainted with Perl6 a bit. From Apocalypse 12, it looks like one can have private attributes with $!something, but I can now get that to work in pugs. Is this a pugs thing or has something changed?
13:31 rindolf wilx: which reported bug?
13:31 wilx Output encoding problem.
13:31 xinming ?eval "<a>xyz</a>" ~~ m:perl5 { <a>(.+)?</a>  }; $1.say;
13:31 evalbot_r14471 OUTPUT[␤] Bool::True
13:31 xinming where I did wrong please?
13:32 xinming It seems, No content in $1
13:34 lollan joined perl6
13:35 xinming oops...
13:35 xinming forgot in perl 6, that $0 will be the first ....
13:35 xinming >_<
14:21 xinming audreyt: ping
14:33 seano joined perl6
14:42 justatheory joined perl6
14:51 ofer0 joined perl6
14:52 * eviltwin_b reads synopses
14:53 eviltwin_b I thought grep was going away, but S02 still refers to it :) (and I noticed someone used it here earlier... habit? or am I confused?)
14:57 audreyt xinming: pong
14:58 audreyt limnot a bug, grep needs a Code, as xinming observed
14:59 larsen_ joined perl6
14:59 audreyt @tell Limbic_Region not a bug, grep needs a Code, as xinming observed
14:59 lambdabot Consider it noted.
15:04 xinming audreyt: Is there a quick way to pass a scalar ref to embeding perl 5 code? eg, using TT, we can't get the result string with the normal way...
15:05 xinming Now, I have a hack, But looks ugly...
15:05 xinming >_<
15:05 audreyt doesn't \$sref work?
15:05 audreyt I'm surprised
15:05 audreyt try VAR($x) also
15:05 xinming my $r = eval q:c /my $r; Template->new->process("hello", {$v.perl}, \$r); $r/, :lang<perl5>;
15:05 xinming audreyt: \$var doesn't work
15:05 xinming that's my ugly hack... >_<
15:06 audreyt try VAR($var)
15:06 xinming Ok.
15:06 scw joined perl6
15:06 audreyt t/perl5/basic.t line 85 says scalar refs work
15:07 audreyt it may be TT specific...
15:07 scw joined perl6
15:07 xinming It doesn't work for TT
15:07 xinming I tried it just now.
15:07 xinming that's why I get a ugly hack... >_<
15:08 audreyt hm I wonder why.
15:08 xinming lisppaste3: url
15:08 lisppaste3 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 and enter your paste.
15:09 lisppaste3 xinming pasted "TT doesn't get the reference.." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/28433
15:10 xinming Because, I wish to write my personal home page using perl 6, I did a try 3 months ago... But at that time, Pugs doesn't do well on class. :-P
15:11 xinming s/write/port/;
15:12 kisu joined perl6
15:15 audreyt it's TT2 specific
15:15 xinming audreyt: Ok, I'll give up,
15:15 audreyt no, don't. a sec
15:15 * xinming wonders, If he can use mason as template in pugs... :-P
15:15 xinming I'll try
15:15 xinming ...
15:15 xinming Ok
15:16 audreyt it didn't work becasue TT2 was hardcoding ref()
15:17 audreyt you can easily work around it
15:17 audreyt my $out; $t.process("hello", $v, { $out = $_ });
15:17 audreyt will do
15:17 lisppaste3 xinming pasted "Is this a bug?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/28434
15:17 xinming audreyt: please see another one
15:17 audreyt not a bug
15:18 audreyt hash(), not hash{}
15:18 audreyt so hash({}) will work I think
15:18 xinming Oh, thanks...
15:18 audreyt hm but wait
15:18 audreyt $a = {};
15:18 audreyt is quite sufficient aleady
15:18 xinming yes
15:18 xinming that's what I mean
15:18 xinming but...
15:19 audreyt I'm fixing the TT2's misassumption for you. a sec
15:19 xinming what I like to see is "$a = {}\n;"
15:19 xinming please note the newline
15:19 audreyt yeah. that's recently outlawed by larry
15:20 xinming thanks
15:21 audreyt np :)
15:22 xinming audreyt: a question, Can we use 90% modules from perl 5 in pugs for now?
15:22 gunya joined perl6
15:22 audreyt I don't know I havn't measured
15:23 audreyt checkin in TT2-friendly fix
15:23 ofer0 joined perl6
15:24 xinming Ok, I will
15:25 rindolf Hi audreyt
15:25 xinming audreyt: How to say Small-White(xiao bai) in English? :-)
15:25 bernhard joined perl6
15:26 audreyt newbie?
15:26 audreyt not sure
15:27 rindolf audreyt: can you please go over http://www.shlomifish.org/Files​/files/emails/TPF-Proposals/and let me know what you think?
15:27 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/yg32ll
15:28 audreyt looking
15:28 rindolf audreyt: thanks.
15:28 xinming audreyt: Not newbie, I mean someone who is like a mouse while scientists doing exeriment...
15:28 xinming experiment
15:28 eviltwin_b "guinea pig"?
15:28 audreyt xinming: ok, this now works
15:28 eviltwin_b or "lab rat" depending on context
15:28 audreyt use perl5:Template;
15:28 audreyt my $v = { string => "This is string" };
15:28 audreyt my $t = Template.new;
15:28 audreyt $t.process("hello", $v, VAR(my $r));
15:28 audreyt $r.say;
15:29 xinming eviltwin_b: thanks. :-)
15:29 xinming audreyt: did you push to the server please?
15:30 audreyt still running tests
15:30 eviltwin_b I'd say "guinea pig" implies a test subject, "lab rat" implies running a maze or obstacle course
15:30 eviltwin_b (or a skinner box :)
15:33 xinming eviltwin_b: thanks, Here, if sometimes, the program is not stable, and the new version is released, Most people would say, Summoning "lab rat"(Xiao Bai).  <-- just want to wait other "victims" :-P
15:33 svnbot6 r14472 | audreyt++ | * p5embed.c: stringify scalar refs correctly for TT2, such that
15:33 svnbot6 r14472 | audreyt++ |     $t.process("hello", $v, VAR(my $r));
15:33 svnbot6 r14472 | audreyt++ |   can work correctly.  Requested by xinming++.
15:33 eviltwin_b yeh, that'd be "guinea pig"
15:34 xinming because, rat is small and white...  but I call it "Small-White" :-P
15:34 xinming audreyt: thanks
15:34 xinming eviltwin_b: I'll go and test, thanks
15:34 audreyt xinming: yeah, I suggested "newbie" for its other meaning
15:34 audreyt http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%8F%E7%99%BD
15:34 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/w7sp4
15:35 xinming GFW blocked wiki. :'(
15:35 audreyt it means "newbie", but also "troll", but also "early adopter", but also "ibook/ipod enthusiast"
15:35 eviltwin_b heh
15:35 audreyt GFW-- # blocking wikipedia _and_ pugscode.org
15:36 rindolf pugscode.org... heh.
15:36 eviltwin_b "(i)pod people"
15:36 xinming well, sometimes, pugscode.org would also be blocked. :-P
15:36 audreyt "wikipedia.org" is among the keyword blacklist
15:36 audreyt so not only wikipedia, any site that mentions/links to wikipedia disappears, as of this august
15:37 audreyt GFW--
15:38 rindolf audreyt: heh.
15:38 rindolf audreyt: does the GFW also "protects" Hong Kong?
15:38 audreyt no, not afaik.
15:39 rindolf audreyt: OK.
15:39 audreyt xinming: surely you can Tor around, or is the use of Tor also detected nowadays?
15:40 xinming audreyt: still not works.
15:40 xinming Now, It's another problem.
15:40 audreyt rindolf: "  Implement as many of the following enhancements as possible:"
15:40 audreyt that sounds weird. just "Implement the following enhancements"
15:41 eviltwin_b hm, this is looking more and more like a mad scientist crossbred icon and haskell :>
15:41 xinming TT2 wouldn't parse the result
15:42 xinming audreyt: tor isn't detected, It's just because I'm lazy. and using tor is really slow while connecting to the internet
15:42 gunya xinming, is broadband connection availble / affordable in your area ?
15:43 audreyt xinming: yeah. I stopped using Tor-over-ssh-over-DNS  for exactly the same reason
15:43 xinming gunya: yes, People here most uses ADsl.
15:43 rindolf audreyt: OK.
15:44 audreyt rindolf: re XML::RSS. my first question is
15:44 gunya xinming: nice. is that characteristic of entire country or just the developed coastal regions ?
15:44 audreyt "why bother? why not use XML::Feed?"
15:45 audreyt rindolf: surely you also prefer XML::Feed yourself, as seen from your cpan rantings
15:45 audreyt ^Wratings ?
15:45 xinming audreyt: It still doesn't work, Before the change TT can work if you just wish to process and print the data. But now,
15:45 rindolf audreyt: I think XML::Feed makes use of XML::RSS.
15:45 xinming gunya: I think It's just for Mainland.
15:45 audreyt rindolf: oh. I missed that. sorry. then maybe mention that in the proposal?
15:46 audreyt xinming: nopaste?
15:46 xinming gunya: Just for hidding some sensive infomation from people.
15:46 xinming audreyt: Ok, a min
15:46 xinming lisppaste3: url
15:46 lisppaste3 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 and enter your paste.
15:48 lisppaste3 xinming pasted "TT2 continued..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/28435
15:49 rindolf audreyt: well, I'm already saying that "All of this is especially troubling because XML::RSS is relied on
15:49 rindolf by many CPAN distributions and other Perl programs for their RSS-munging
15:49 rindolf needs.".
15:49 audreyt but if you replace "many" with concrete names
15:50 audreyt that makes it much more convincing
15:50 audreyt otherwise, looks just fine.
15:50 nothingmuch urfhfhhhh
15:50 rindolf audreyt: OK.
15:50 audreyt you're getting better at this :)
15:50 rindolf nothingmuch: hi.
15:50 rindolf nothingmuch: what's wrong?
15:50 audreyt nothingmuch: greetings, urfhfhhh moose
15:50 nothingmuch urfhfhhh moose indeed
15:50 nothingmuch well, urf MO anymoose
15:51 nothingmuch attr::simple::Compiled --> compile yields an accessor  body
15:51 nothingmuch currently this is a closure
15:51 nothingmuch this is going to phase out
15:51 gunya xinming, heh, i realize what the deal is with content blocking by GFW; i was asking about broadband :)
15:51 nothingmuch because it was simply a quickstart kludge
15:51 nothingmuch i'm trying to figure out what the best data type for it should be
15:51 * nothingmuch is leaning towards s-exps
15:51 nothingmuch e.g.
15:52 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 84.108.53.74 pasted "sexp vs. closure" (15 lines, 323B) at http://sial.org/pbot/20582
15:52 nothingmuch presumably some sort of processor will either compile the s-exp into Code::Perl or Perl::Generate (when the latter is ready)
15:53 nothingmuch or simply kludge it right now
15:53 xinming gunya: hmm, What I have to say is, in city, most are using brandboard now, But I don't think people lived a place which is far from city would get brandboard, they even don't have chance to buy a computer. >_<
15:53 nothingmuch the issue i'm running into is that in the adhoc perl 5 runtime, and the "compiled" perl 5 runtime (where MO emits p5 packages) the boxed instance format is difference
15:53 nothingmuch (pure MO uses an explicit box, and perl 5 uses blessing)
15:53 nothingmuch hence the unboxed_instance macro is different, depending on the emitter
15:56 ingy hi nothingmuch
15:56 Steve_p joined perl6
15:56 ingy rindolf: ping
15:56 rindolf ingy: hi.
15:56 nothingmuch hi ingy
15:56 gunya xinming, sounds very similar to the situation here, in Ukraine.  I had to wait almost a whole year to order a lousy 128kbps link at $20 per month ( i'm located in a large city )
15:56 ingy rindolf: I released that module
15:56 rindolf ingy: thanks.
15:56 audreyt nothingmuch: you aware of Data::SExpression?
15:56 gunya xinming, is your connection faster / cheaper ?
15:57 nothingmuch i forgot what insanity it did that i didn't like
15:57 ingy hi audreyt
15:57 ingy where are you?
15:57 audreyt portland, OR
15:57 audreyt schwern's place
15:57 nothingmuch oh right, the whole symbol table stuff
15:57 nothingmuch i don't actually need sexp syntax
15:58 nothingmuch but sexps are convenient for an adhoc not-quite-ast
15:58 ingy audreyt: nice. too bad I leave for chicago in 20 hours
15:58 audreyt too bad indeed
15:58 xinming It costs about 20 US dollar to get an ADsl link. And in fact, people would prefer to choose Adsl, if they use Modem, they would cry on downloading anything over the internet. ;-) It's very expensive compared with ADsl.
15:59 audreyt you going to chicago hackathon?
15:59 ingy no. I am heading to the Dublin *Marathon*
16:00 ingy on 30Oct
16:00 xinming audreyt: Is TT2 working well in pugs there?
16:00 xinming gunya: especially like people who is using gentoo like me. :-P
16:01 audreyt xinming: yes as a matter of fact
16:01 gunya xinming, so it costs about the same..  how fast is it and is your bandwidth limited ? ( with my previous provider i used to get twice the speed, while paying extra for every megabyte over a 1Gig monthly limit )
16:01 ingy is there really a chicago hackathon?
16:01 rindolf audreyt: thanks.
16:02 Steve_p ingy, yes
16:02 audreyt xinming: svn up
16:02 svnbot6 r14473 | audreyt++ | * Force item context on hash fetch operations so roundtripping a
16:02 svnbot6 r14473 | audreyt++ |   hash to TT2 would work seamlessly.  Again reported by xinming++
16:02 Steve_p It may not be exceptionally big.
16:02 rindolf I sure hope I can find a ride to the Jerusalem Linux Club meeting today.
16:02 rindolf But my default ride got a back-ache.
16:02 xinming gunya: 1.5 Mb for downloading and < 640Kb for upload.
16:03 xinming audreyt: thanks.
16:03 xinming gunya: BTW, no total bandwidth limit.
16:03 nothingmuch ingy: http://hackathon.info/
16:03 lambdabot Title: Chicago Perl Hackathon: Nov 10-12, 2006, Crystal Lake, IL
16:03 gunya xinming, very nice for $20 / mo.  !!
16:04 gunya china++;  ukraine--;
16:04 Steve_p I need to get my room reserved still :-/
16:07 xinming audreyt: thanks, Now, It works... :-)
16:07 xinming audreyt++
16:07 ingy nothingmuch: you pung?
16:08 nothingmuch yes
16:08 nothingmuch but it's no longer relevant
16:08 ingy yay
16:08 nothingmuch Module::Install + Module::Compile
16:08 nothingmuch make upload was borked
16:08 nothingmuch since it had an old .pmc
16:08 nothingmuch partly my fault for not running prove -l t but make test
16:08 nothingmuch but i'd like if that were automatable
16:09 nothingmuch and Module::Install::PMC has no docs or hints
16:09 ingy why is it no longer relevant?
16:09 nothingmuch because i fixed it by hand and released
16:09 nothingmuch i thought it was more problematic
16:10 ingy ok
16:10 nothingmuch (that like M::B, M::I uses File::Copy, which doesn't preserve timnestapms, which means that the .pmc and the .pm have hte same timestamp... but that isn't true)
16:10 ingy today is Jemplate release day for me
16:11 ingy I see
16:12 nothingmuch &
16:12 xinming BTW, anyone here can tell me if there is a close method in IO::Dir?
16:13 xinming hmm,
16:13 Steve_p close() is in IO::Handle, so, yes
16:13 bennymack joined perl6
16:13 xinming my $dh = opendir "."; $dh.close;
16:14 Steve_p errr...in Perl 6...I would think there would be :)
16:15 xinming hmm, then, what's the difference between close and closedir? ;-)
16:16 audreyt it's .closedir currently
16:16 xinming audreyt: yes, I know, That's why I was wondering if closedir would be an alias to close for IO::DIR class
16:16 bennymack hi everybody
16:16 bennymack i was wondering if anyone could point me to some good perl6 macro examples
16:17 audreyt xinming: it's currently simply .closedir but I an see .close is cool
16:17 audreyt bennymack: t/macros/
16:17 audreyt bennymack: do you have a commit bit yet? :)
16:17 bennymack negatory
16:17 audreyt what's your email addr then?
16:17 bennymack i'm still living in perl5 land
16:18 * bennymack at gmail dot com
16:19 xinming audreyt: is "I an see" = "I ain't see" or just typo of can?
16:19 audreyt a topy of can
16:19 audreyt bennymack: welcome aboard. please add yourself to AUTHORS and feel free to populate t/macro/ (or any other directories) :)
16:20 bennymack ok, but where can I learn about them first? aside from the apocalypse and synopses
16:20 audreyt just the synopses at the moment
16:21 bennymack and i checked out the perl6 faq on programmersheaven.com
16:22 bennymack http://www.programmersheaven.com/2/Perl6-FAQ
16:22 lambdabot Title: Perl6-FAQ at Programmers Heaven
16:26 svnbot6 r14474 | yiyihu++ |  r14633@HomePc:  xinming | 2006-10-22 00:23:57 +0000
16:26 svnbot6 r14474 | yiyihu++ |  Alias closedir and close in class IO::Dir,
16:26 svnbot6 r14474 | yiyihu++ |  Now, both $dh.close and $dh.closedir works.
16:27 * bennymack picks up his copy of "Perl 6 and Parrot Essentials"
16:27 xinming Newbie's way, `grep "closedir" . -R` and choose a file to edit randomly. ;-)
16:27 xinming bennymack: pick up the Synopsis.
16:28 xinming <<Perl 6 and Parrot Essentials>> is a book long long ago.
16:29 audreyt it's still a good erad though half of it is outdated...
16:30 ingy audreyt: msg
16:30 * audreyt is reminded of Feymann's physics class: "Half of what I'm going to teach you is wrong -- we just dont know which half"
16:32 weinig_ joined perl6
16:33 weinig_ is now known as weinig
16:36 xinming anyone here please test this...
16:36 xinming my $dh = opendir "."; close $dh; close $dh;
16:36 xinming what will happen?
16:36 xinming *** glibc detected *** pugs: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x08a1ca80 ....
16:37 loumz joined perl6
16:38 Steve_p xinming, it sounds like close is missing a NULL check of sorts
16:39 xinming Steve_p: yes, And I think this bug is in GHC...
16:39 xinming :-P
16:40 jferrero joined perl6
16:40 audreyt indeed it is :)
17:06 larsen_ joined perl6
17:21 xinming How do I send a message using while I'm write testing please?
17:21 xinming s/write/writing/
17:21 DHGE joined perl6
17:21 xinming Is say just enough?
17:22 lanny joined perl6
17:23 Steve_p xinming, diag, perhaps?
17:23 xinming Steve_p: thanks. :-)
17:24 larsen__ joined perl6
17:24 eviltwin_b silly question I didn't notice the answer to:
17:25 eviltwin_b "[for 0 or 1 arguments in reduce] Negated [comparison] operators return Bool::False, and all the rest return Bool::True"
17:25 eviltwin_b was currying/partial application considered? :)
17:26 eviltwin_b seems kinda obvious in the context of Pugs, at least...
17:27 eviltwin_b (obviously in the 1-arg case, as the 0-arg case can't do anything)
17:27 eviltwin_b hm, suppose it would be inconsistent
17:28 lanny Was it considered for  what, eviltwin_b?  I'm being slow today and not understanding what you are getting at.
17:29 * eviltwin_b is operating on insufficient sleep, funny how actually writing the question as opposed to thinking about it suggested an answer
17:29 lanny I think the defaults are to catch stuff like:  [!==] @nums;  when @nums = (42,);
17:29 eviltwin_b no, I think I'm the one being slow
17:29 eviltwin_b if the multi-arg forms are reductions it doesn't make a low of sense for 1 arg to return a partial application
17:29 eviltwin_b s/w/t/
17:30 * eviltwin_b is thinking a bit *too* Haskell-like, he guesses
17:31 lanny Hmm.  &prefix:{'equal42'} := &infix:{'=='}.assuming(42);
17:31 gaal there's no autocurrying in perl 6
17:31 svnbot6 r14475 | yiyihu++ |  r14635@HomePc:  xinming | 2006-10-22 01:26:30 +0000
17:31 svnbot6 r14475 | yiyihu++ |  Update t/builtins/io/dir.t file.
17:31 svnbot6 r14475 | yiyihu++ |  Added testing for short version of IO::Dir class.
17:31 svnbot6 r14475 | yiyihu++ |  read rewind close etc...
17:31 svnbot6 r14475 | yiyihu++ |  r14636@HomePc:  xinming | 2006-10-22 01:28:58 +0000
17:31 svnbot6 r14475 | yiyihu++ |  Alias rewinddir readdir to rewind read for IO::Dir class.
17:31 svnbot6 r14475 | yiyihu++ |  rewinddir and readdir still works.
17:31 gaal thus no partial application
17:33 lanny Is there a way to get at left side or right side using .assuming on an infix operator?
17:33 gaal i think .assuming got a shorter name, but i can't remember what it is now
17:33 gaal flip. j/k :-)
17:34 lanny Don't make  me type .(*|assuuming)()  :)
17:35 gaal lanny: good question, i don't know offhand
17:35 lanny I guess when everything is spec-ed if the ops get sigs like  :( $left, $right ) then I could get ahold  of them.  .assuming($left => 42)
17:36 gaal that seems a little fragile to me
17:36 gaal also there's no really good convention for longer lists. $a, $b, $c?
17:37 lanny $left, $right, $gripping.  :)
17:38 gaal :)
17:39 lanny With macros you could roll your own of course  for  stuff like the infix ops.
17:39 lanny But not  sure how macro equal42 will play with: [equal42] @nums;
17:39 gaal i think reduce metaop only takes a real op.
17:40 lanny If that's the case  then perl6 won't have first  class macros and I don't think that's the aim
17:40 gaal but there's probably something to be done with @_
17:41 lanny Although [] probably is special in that reguard
17:41 lanny er... [] ("reduce")
17:42 chris2 joined perl6
17:43 silug joined perl6
17:43 * lanny wanders off to show for Halloween costumes.
17:46 bennymack ok, i'm getting an error from this macro: macro hello(str $what) { q:code { say "Hello { {{{$what}}} }" }; }
17:46 bennymack hello("there");
17:46 bennymack *** Undeclared variable: "$what"
17:50 bennymack although this works: macro hello(str $what) { return qq{ say "Hello $what" }; }
17:50 bennymack i'm clearly unsure of the interaction between q:code and the {{{$var}}} syntax however.
17:53 eviltwin_b ow.  definitely I want to wipe my dports ghc and start over; that was one slow startup :)
18:03 Limbic_Region joined perl6
18:14 * nothingmuch realized what the problem was
18:14 nothingmuch yay
18:14 Limbic_Region woot
18:14 lambdabot Limbic_Region: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:14 nothingmuch the current structure needs an emitter onit's own
18:15 Limbic_Region @messages
18:15 lambdabot audreyt said 3h 15m 54s ago: not a bug, grep needs a Code, as xinming observed
18:22 Aankhen`` joined perl6
18:39 systems`` joined perl6
19:36 Khisanth ?eval 1 xx 3
19:36 evalbot_r14475 (1, 1, 1)
19:36 Khisanth ?eval 1 x 3
19:36 evalbot_r14475 "111"
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19:46 systems`` eval 2**22222 :P evil
19:46 systems`` >:)
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20:19 eviltwin_b hm.  "a syntax error will be reported for C-isms such as" --- they're not C-isms, they're (heinous) GNU-isms :)
20:21 rindolf eviltwin_b: where?
20:22 eviltwin_b S04 end of "Statement Parsing"
20:22 eviltwin_b call it religious.  I think GNU reversed the meaning of space before parens, to the detriment of code comprehensibility.  (and perl6's behavior seems to agree with me :)
20:24 eviltwin_b in K&R style you always space after keywords like if/for/while
20:24 eviltwin_b so it's arguably not a "C-ism"
20:26 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
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20:37 lanny Anyone else on Win32 that could try an update and a build?  I seem to be sticking on ext/HTTP-Server-Simple/t/subclass.t
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21:34 eviltwin_b hmmm.  S06 has "It's now possible to set up a user-defined subroutine that acts like grep" (Code vs. Regex etc.) but earlier today here "grep requires a Code"
21:36 shobadobs joined perl6
21:39 eviltwin_b also S05 uses the : pattern modifier in a non-obvious-to-newcomers way before it defines it (and defines it in the discussion of C<token>)
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21:59 eviltwin_b whoops when I said S06 I meant S05
21:59 eviltwin_b feh
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22:06 lanny @tell audreyt You'll want to check the smokes for Win32.  r14463 (just before GHC threading turned on) has 2 failures and after 231 (including having to kill pugs by hand on 2 test to continue).
22:06 lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:11 svnbot6 r14476 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Junc: Implement Sebastian Sylvan's suggestion of using
22:11 svnbot6 r14476 | audreyt++ |   MVars instead of Chans to accomplish junctive autothreading,
22:11 svnbot6 r14476 | audreyt++ |   much improving the performance on MacIntel here.
22:12 systems`` joined perl6
22:21 svnbot6 r14477 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Junc: Further speed things up by using takeMVar instead of readMVar.
22:21 svnbot6 r14478 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim.List: MVar-based synchronization is much better
22:21 svnbot6 r14478 | audreyt++ |   also for hyper operators than Chan-based ones, so implement
22:21 svnbot6 r14478 | audreyt++ |   them here too.
22:24 svnbot6 r14479 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Junc: Eliminate the redudant call to newChan.
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