Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-10-24

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:20 TimToady @tell aufrank 'my $foo is context;'
00:20 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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01:04 markstos I just made the mistake of using 'given' when I meant 'when'. It would be nice if there was a warning emitted if given {}is used, without doing anything useful with it.
01:04 markstos ?eval for <a b c> -> $rm { given Str { say "$rm is a Str" } default {   say "$rm was not a Str, it was: "~$rm.WHAT } }
01:04 evalbot_r14504 OUTPUT[a is a Str␤a was not a Str, it was: Str␤b is a Str␤b was not a Str, it was: Str␤c is a Str␤c was not a Str, it was: Str␤] undef
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01:32 revdiablo ?eval given Str { say $_ } # How can the usefulness be determined by a compiler?
01:32 evalbot_r14504 OUTPUT[Str␤] Bool::True
01:33 markstos I'm not sure if it's even possible or practical. I'm just reporting a "wish" from a user's perspective.
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01:34 eviltwin_b it might be possible to warn if the block has neither whenclauses nor uses of $_, I suppose
01:34 eviltwin_b (more precisely, references $_ neither explicitly nor implicitly)
01:35 markstos eviltwin_b: That's the kind of thing I had in mind.
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02:20 markstos I found a Perl 5 embedding case we might want to address. If I have a Perl 5 string and pass it to a Perl 6 routine that checks to see if the arg is a string, it won't work.
02:21 markstos the type appears to be "{obj-perl5}" instead.
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02:30 markstos Nevermind. There isn't a bug there like I thought.
02:58 bcorn best book for getting started with haskell?
03:01 araujo Introduction to Functional Programming - Bird
03:07 bcorn araujo: thanks
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12:12 svnbot6 r14505 | fglock++ | v6/emitter(2) - updated HACKING
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12:36 svnbot6 r14506 | fglock++ | v6/emitter(2) - updated HACKING
12:40 fglock implementing a fully optimized v6/emitter(2) is probably not the way to go - this will take too long
12:44 Limbic_Region yes fglock, and the rest of the p6 project is moving so fast - you don't want to be left behind
12:44 Limbic_Region </tounge_in_cheek>
12:45 fglock Limbic_Region: :)
12:45 fglock Limbic_Region: I have to use my human resources sparingly
12:48 Limbic_Region that I understand - there isn't enough hours in the day to learn all that I want, spend time with my family, earn a living at $work, and be productive too
12:49 Limbic_Region I have come to the conclusion however that my hacking put in perspective of the mathematical world is definately "pure" and not "applied"
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12:50 fglock Limbic_Region: an API layer can fix that
12:55 Limbic_Region fglock - sure, but that's someone else's problem
12:56 fglock Limbic_Region: right :)
12:57 Limbic_Region fglock - are technical books expensive where you are?
12:58 fglock Limbic_Region: reasonably expensive, yes
12:59 Limbic_Region and what are the custom tax on gifts from US?
12:59 fglock Limbic_Region: there is no taxes for books, afaik
13:00 Limbic_Region and you are in .br right?
13:00 fglock Limbic_Region: yes
13:00 Limbic_Region hrmm - I was completely unaware of this problem but you are not alone
13:01 fglock brb - meeting &
13:01 Limbic_Region just the other day I was chatting with a fellow from argentina who indicated the cost prohibitive nature of books their
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13:51 nothingmuch @seen cmarcelo
13:51 lambdabot Last time I saw cmarcelo was when I left #darcs, #gentoo-haskell, #ghc, #haskell, #haskell-blah, #haskell-overflow, #haskell.es, #haskell.it, #haskell.se, #haskell_ru, #oasis, #perl6 and #scannedinavi
13:51 lambdabot an 5d 11h 56m 38s ago, and .
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15:04 svnbot6 r14507 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: Parse for (but do nothing with) "of" types in return type:
15:04 svnbot6 r14507 | audreyt++ |     sub f (Int $x --> Hash of Int) {...}
15:04 masak I get "user error (Incompatible version number for compilation unit" all the time
15:04 masak even after following the advice in "Consider removing /usr/lib/perl6/site_perl/Prelude.pm.yml and make it again"
15:05 audreyt rm blib6/lib/*.yml?
15:05 lambdabot audreyt: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:05 audreyt @messages
15:05 lambdabot TimToady said 5d 21h 54m 7s ago: MOH is just a rotated HOW. :)
15:05 audreyt weird, lambdabot has a confused memory
15:05 [particle] sure does
15:06 nothingmuch heh
15:07 svnbot6 r14508 | audreyt++ | * ext/MessageBus: New extension for a Pub/Sub message bus with
15:07 svnbot6 r14508 | audreyt++ |   multiple channels and pluggable cache backends.
15:09 gaal audreyt: in your autopugs, please add the following after make
15:09 gaal rm /tmp/refresh-prelude
15:10 gaal chmod a+w blib6/lib/Prelude.yml
15:10 gaal and add some moose to rebuild if /tmp/refresh-prelude exists :)
15:11 audreyt gaal: the autobox is in evalbot-loop
15:11 gaal that way no need to impersonate you
15:11 audreyt please add it yourself :)
15:11 audreyt autopugs even
15:11 audreyt (not being lazy; the hotspring net here is not exactly fast)
15:11 gaal okies :)
15:11 gaal sure
15:12 gaal be more lazy, it's good for you :)
15:12 masak hotspring net? :)
15:13 gaal uh, someone remind me, how do you set up a unix dir so that every file created in it is a+w?
15:13 gaal or belongs to a certain g, also good
15:13 nothingmuch @tell cmarcelo i'd like to discuss the purity of the meta object in the haskell versions, please ping
15:13 lambdabot Consider it noted.
15:13 wilx Change umask?
15:13 nothingmuch gaal: my flight control friend has access to very up to date weather data
15:13 nothingmuch he'll give us an update tomorrow
15:14 nothingmuch though i'm skeptical =(
15:14 gaal nothingmuch: I saw those metaobjects debauching last night, I think it's high time cmarcelo and you take care of their purity
15:14 eviltwin_b certain group: give dir that group, flag as setgid
15:14 gaal if not a little late
15:15 eviltwin_b (doesn't work on some network filesystems)
15:15 gaal wilx: I want everybody who writes there to moose those perms, even if their umask is unfun
15:16 gaal eviltwin_b: yeah, that's good. what's the incantation? chmod gs+w ?
15:17 eviltwin_b chmod g+s
15:17 gaal and then g+w?
15:17 eviltwin_b change the group first as some kernels will clear the setgid
15:17 eviltwin_b yes
15:17 gaal great, thanks
15:18 eviltwin_b keep in mind that the group write will still depend on the umask
15:18 masak so, I want a something equivalent to an inheritable private method in a perl6 class... is there a way to do this?
15:18 eviltwin_b if you need finer control you need a kernel+fs that speaks posix acls
15:18 eviltwin_b ...or a network filesystem with its own permissions foo, but that has its own issues :)
15:19 gaal eviltwin_b: the only purpose here is to allow all ferather users to ask autopugs to regen its prelude when it's broken (happens occasionally)
15:19 gaal even if they don't have sudo privs
15:19 gaal but also allowing autopugs' user to remove the flag file
15:21 masak er, or even an inheritable method at all... is this implemented? I can't get pugs to find my base class method
15:22 * masak studies the tests
15:27 masak ah, needed to prefix the method call with "self.". now works satisfactorily
15:28 audreyt or $.
15:28 audreyt $.meth(1,2,3)
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15:31 masak audreyt: yes. just found that out myself and changed the syntax to that :)
15:34 svnbot6 r14509 | audreyt++ | * MessageBus: Method name cleanup from obra++
15:40 fglock re MO: is there a paper or reference about it? I need to find out how this interacts with v6 emitter
15:40 svnbot6 r14510 | gaal++ | * allow users to request an evalbot refresh by touching
15:40 svnbot6 r14510 | gaal++ |   /tmp/autopugs/refresh
15:40 svnbot6 r14510 | gaal++ |   (not enabled on feather until we set up everyone to
15:40 svnbot6 r14510 | gaal++ |   be members of a common group, to prevent the file from
15:40 svnbot6 r14510 | gaal++ |   accidentally not being removable by the evalbot-loop;
15:40 svnbot6 r14510 | gaal++ |   that would trigger endless refreshes.)
15:41 gaal Juerd: could you please add a new group on feather, and make everyone (including new users) members of it? see 14510
15:41 masak ?eval class A { has @.x = <a b c>; method y( $i ) { return @.x[ $i ]; } } class B is A { method z( $i ) { return $.y( $i ); } } B.new.z( 1 )
15:41 evalbot_r14509 \undef
15:41 masak evalbot_r14509: I would have liked a 'b' from you
15:42 masak seems that when I try to access a base class' member variables through a method called from a derived class, I get nothing back
15:42 Juerd gaal: I don't understand what the purpose would be of a group that everyone is in. Unix has owner, group, and world. Doesn't world suffice?
15:43 masak now, I'm open for the possibility that I've misunderstood something, but barring that, I'd say this is an error or a missing feature
15:44 gaal Juerd: is there a way to ensure a file created in some dir is o+w?
15:44 Juerd gaal: A directory can be g+s, which automatically sets the group. This group can then be that of the evalbot's user.
15:45 Juerd gaal: I don't think /tmp is a good place for this, by the way. It's cleaned on bootup.
15:45 Juerd gaal: Also, aren't we better off with a command that sends a signal to the process?
15:45 audreyt masak: initializaer did not inherit properly; please writ a test or locate one
15:46 masak audreyt: oki
15:46 Juerd In any case, I find adding everyone to the same group a lot of maintenance for such a small feature.
15:46 Juerd There are so many ways to do this. You could even build a web interface, or let people request this from IRC.
15:47 gaal Juerd: not via evalbot, fwiw. this is for use when evalbot breaks :)
15:47 gaal the signal approach makes the most sense
15:47 Juerd Why not refresh automatically on breakage?
15:47 Juerd Breakage tends to be detectable
15:47 lumi gaal: Why not via evalbot? The breakage is just pugs not working
15:48 fglock <lazy> how is MO different from Moose? </lazy>
15:48 gaal hmm.
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15:50 gaal okay, I'm going away for ~3hr, will do that if somebody doesn't beat me to it
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15:51 svnbot6 r14511 | masak++ | [t/oo/inheritance.t]
15:51 svnbot6 r14511 | masak++ | * added test for inherited initializer
15:53 audreyt fglock: MO is compiled.
15:56 fglock audreyt: in the sense that it does not depend on an intermediate language?
15:57 fglock like Moose is implemented in perl5 (the VM language)
16:00 fglock does compiled mean it belongs to the VM level?
16:01 fglock like Parrot should do
16:01 svnbot6 r14512 | andara++ | [runpugs]
16:01 svnbot6 r14512 | andara++ | -now runs latest release by default, latest devel as option
16:01 svnbot6 r14512 | andara++ | -runpugs2: devel version, now with non-interactive sessions (not live yet)
16:01 svnbot6 r14511 | masak++ | [t/oo/inheritance.t]
16:01 svnbot6 r14511 | masak++ | * added test for inherited initializer
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16:05 masak seems svnbot6 is confused today, too
16:05 masak I'm getting undeserved karma here :)
16:08 audreyt fglock: compiled means that it can take a set of declarations and emit native code in (say) perl5 or haskell code for them
16:13 leo » Joined channel "#parrot".
16:13 leo » Checking for new commits (ignore error messages)... *** Cannot cast from VHandle {handle: temp-svnbot-20777-532} to Object at /home/audreyt/pugs/examples/network/svnbot.pl line 152, column 13-22
16:13 leo svnbot troubles
16:14 leo hi btw
16:20 fglock leo: hi
16:21 fglock audreyt: so it could even be written in Perl6
16:22 fglock no, I don't think this is what you mean
16:23 fglock you mean it can choose to either inline code or to make calls (?)
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16:36 cj audreyt: whee!  You're coming to talk to us on Friday!
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16:40 cmarcelo nothingmuch: ping
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16:43 svnbot6 r14513 | fglock++ | v6/emitter(2) - added multisub-example.pl
16:44 fglock cmarcelo: would you help me with MO?
16:45 the_dormant Hi all, I'm learning perl6 (w/ very little background on perl) and I'm looking for the equivalent of -C, -A on files
16:45 the_dormant anyone help please
16:46 xinming the_dormant: perl 6 uses utf-8 by default
16:46 cmarcelo fglock: sure. but I know very little bit about it :o)
16:47 fglock cmarcelo: np - let's learn together
16:47 PerlJam the_dormant: perl6 still has those operators I believe.
16:48 fglock cmarcelo: the input data for MO comes from an AST transformation, right?
16:49 cmarcelo I think so. At least the tests I read suggest that..
16:49 fglock cmarcelo: the output data is native source code?
16:50 xinming PerlJam: I think It is depend on the compiler. ;-)
16:51 xinming PerlJam: If we use perl 5 as vm, then, We don't need to worry about this issue.
16:54 cmarcelo i don't know exactly. it builds a bunch of objects in perl5 (or hs in case of moh), that could be serializable. but there are method definitions which are in MO right now just refs to p5 code, but it could be ref to a more abstract representation of code (part of a p6 ast, for example), which can be serializable too..
16:54 cmarcelo makes sense?
16:56 fglock cmarcelo: the output code makes no use of OO, since MO desugars it into basic operations?
16:57 cmarcelo basic operations == using MO vocabulary to call a method instead of doing $obj.meth() ?
16:58 fglock yes
16:58 cmarcelo in the code inside method definitions I'm not sure if this actually happens (looks like it should)...
17:00 cmarcelo fglock: what do you have in mind?
17:01 fglock cmarcelo: I'm writing a code generator for v6.pm
17:02 fglock cmarcelo: gaal said you should take care of metaobjects purity - what is he referring to?
17:04 fglock cmarcelo: re have in mind - I'm looking for alternate architectures
17:06 cmarcelo i'm (trying to) translate MO code into Haskell. i guess he said that regarding the debate: whether the objects in moh should be datatypes full of IORefs/TVars (mutable things) or should be just pure data types. this has consequences on how I should deal with attributes inside objects (how do the accessors) and how do inherithance too..
17:09 cmarcelo fglock: I thought that much of this MO-thing would be (in a sense) part of pugs AST... this make sense?
17:10 fglock cmarcelo: it depends how much preprocessing you are doing during parsing
17:11 cmarcelo fglock: (i used tried to install v6 from CPAN and my machine freezed [froze?] doing lots and lots of IO during 01-tap.t test in v6-alpha)
17:11 cmarcelo s/used//
17:11 fglock in order to execute BEGIN blocks you have to go very far
17:12 fglock cmarcelo: there are some problems regarding Cache::Cache module and access rights - if you make tests as non-root
17:13 fglock but this should only make it 50% slower
17:14 cmarcelo i'll try again today. with non-root it should be slower but work fine?
17:14 fglock yes
17:15 fglock and it takes about 80MB of free ram, otherwise it will page fault a lot
17:17 fglock cmarcelo: how is code that uses MO faster than current code?
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17:26 cmarcelo fglock: don't know about performance, but the idea is that MO provides more "meta-candy" than what we have now..
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17:36 cmarcelo fglock: nothingmuch and audreyt can enlighten you more about this...
17:36 fglock cmarcelo: thanks - this is starting to make sense
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17:51 leo any one here to fix the mentioned pugs and/or svnbot err?
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19:05 the_dormant_ Hi all, anyone knows how to get the attributes of a file in pugs (eqv of -C, -A in perl 5)
19:08 kolibrie 12:47 < PerlJam> the_dormant: perl6 still has those operators I believe.
19:09 audreyt we don't currently implement -A -M etc
19:09 audreyt please add the ones you want to t/operators/filetest.t
19:09 audreyt and they'll get hacked in
19:09 audreyt you do have a commit bit?
19:10 audreyt if not, what's your email? :)
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19:11 audreyt leo: hm, that means you are running an outof date pugs
19:11 audreyt trunk pugs does not exhibit that error
19:11 audreyt (I just restarted svnbot6 to make sure)
19:11 the_dormant_ [email@hidden.address]
19:11 leo audreyt: I'm running it on feather, whatever that is :)
19:12 leo it dies after 6 mins, when querying again the rev
19:13 PerlJam feather is still running an old ghc isn't it?
19:13 integral PerlJam: it reports 6.6
19:14 leo Version: 6.2.13 (r14513)
19:14 PerlJam ah.  For some reason I thought feather wasn't updated.
19:20 svnbot6 r14514 | audreyt++ | * svnbot.pl: Trying to fix bug without knowing what's going on...
19:21 audreyt leo: try again?
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19:21 leo started ... waiting 5 mins ...
19:23 TimToady the_dormant_: commitbit sent, please add yourself to AUTHORS as 1st commit
19:24 leo audreyt: seems to have survived a ?check request - lookin good
19:28 the_dormant_ TimToady: ok, thx
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19:31 leo audreyt: that seems to have fixed it - thanks a lot
19:33 audreyt np :)
19:35 leo svnbotl successfully did report r15014 - thanks
19:36 audreyt woot
19:49 cj audreyt: !
19:49 cj audreyt: got lunch plans on friday?
19:53 audreyt cj: I think I'll do lunch in amazon no?
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19:56 cj audreyt: sure.  The cafeteria doesn't serve the best food, but it's convenient for those in PacMed.  You can get there from US1 (where you'll be speaking) on a shuttle.  There is a lot of "international" food in the very near vicinity to US1, if you want to eat asian food.
19:56 * [particle] thinks it's worth a trip to salumi if you can get there for lunch (and you eat meat)
19:56 [particle] ooh, better, audrey's at us1
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20:06 audreyt cj: I'll let you decide :)
20:06 audreyt lunch &
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20:16 cj audreyt: ha!  You must think I'll be paying, then.  I'd have to run that by the wife.
20:17 cj audreyt: how many folks do you want to see at lunch?
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20:36 audreyt cj: I wouldn't mind...
20:38 audreyt any number of folks, that is
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20:40 cj alrighty.  I'll see if I can gather some people.  We'll make a decision about where to eat based on how many people show up.  Do you want to do lunch before, between or after your talks?
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20:41 svnbot6 r14515 | kudra++ | Placeholder
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20:55 doepiedoe Hey ;)
20:56 doepiedoe i'm trying to translate a perl script to php, but can someone tell me what this piece of code does?
20:56 buubot correct syntax is: translate to/from language string
20:57 wilx Huh...
20:57 wilx You are doing it in the wrong direction :)
20:58 wilx The translation.
21:01 integral Pugs doesn't have a PHP backend yet?
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21:07 fglock integral: misc/Parser-Mini/pil1_json_emit_php.pl - but this was almost a joke
21:08 fglock home &
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23:03 svnbot6 r14516 | the_dormant++ | added -M,-C,-A operators check
23:29 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
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23:47 thepler joined perl6
23:55 cmarcelo @tell nothingmuch just commited more bits on moh, take a look to see where I'm having trouble understanding MO. I'll be back in about 2hr.
23:55 lambdabot Consider it noted.

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