Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-10-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:25 ferreira Anyone here already tried to mix the Takahashi method and S5?
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01:37 cj can anyone here read kanji?
01:37 cj http://www.bookshelf.jp/2ch/tech/1126103347.html
01:37 lambdabot Title: cygwin + mingwn + gcc ‘Š’kŽº Part2, http://tinyurl.com/yxo7xw
01:38 cj I'm interested in the part where it talks about conftest.exe throwing an exception :)
01:38 cj don't know any other folks who are quite as good with languages than youse :)
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02:50 ozayam cj: I can help
02:50 ozayam but I think your question should've been "can anyone here read Japanese?" :)
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03:49 clkao audreyt++ # just because
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05:10 pasteling "TimToady" at 71.139.5.15 pasted "attempted translation of Japanese text" (39 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/20636
05:12 TimToady cj: see paste
05:15 TimToady that's weird, it mangled some of the characters but not others...
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05:16 miyagawa_ I guess nopaste tries syntax formating and mangled UTF-8 bytes in between
05:19 TimToady try http://wall.org/~larry/try.txt for an unmangled version
05:19 TimToady or make miyagawa translated it.  :)
05:19 TimToady *translate
05:19 miyagawa_ :)
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05:20 TimToady I suppose that would be Miyagawa-sensei in this case.  :)
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06:21 TreyHarris TimToady: what would you consider an exemplar of DWIM in Perl 5, and in Perl 6?
06:22 TreyHarris (by exemplar, i mean most canonical, or most typical, or most obvious, or whatever... just the one to mention if you had to mention only one example)
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14:07 Limbic_Region salutations all
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14:08 Debolaz Salute Limbic_Region
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14:16 mr_ank greetings, L~R
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14:23 fglock hi
14:29 fglock lunch &
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15:16 TimToady @tell TreyHarris for P5, maybe autovivification is the most useful DWIM.  For P6, smart matching (and its use in switches) is perhaps a better example.
15:16 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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15:31 Debolaz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vaporware <- Should I remove perl 6 from this list? I mean, even though parrot could arguably belong there, I don't feel perl 6 itself classifies as vaporware and claiming it's been over a decade in development sounds just wrong.
15:32 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/yhq7rz
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15:34 fglock Debolaz: rather than remove, how about explain how is the development going on and provide links ?
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15:37 TreyHarris TimToady: thanks!
15:37 lambdabot TreyHarris: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:39 PerlJam Debolaz: neither parrot nor perl6 are vaporware except in as much as they don't have a "product release"  However the development releases are already useful and used.
15:41 Debolaz PerlJam: It is not my personal opinion that parrot is vaporware, but I do know many peopel who do feel that way.
15:42 Debolaz s/peopel/people/
15:43 PerlJam Debolaz: well, when you update the page you can put a note to the effect of what I just said  :-)
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15:44 TreyHarris Debolaz: depending on your perspective, "it's" been "in development" for a couple years, for six years, for two decades, for five decades, or pick some arbitrary point in the history of computer science. :)  but i can't see what happened in the mid-90's timeframe that would justify "over a decade"
15:44 nezcaz helo *
15:45 PerlJam TreyHarris: perl6 has been in development over a decade because perl5 was the one to throw away  ;-)
15:45 TreyHarris unless you count starting with the Perl 5 release.  (kind of odd, unless you assume that the clock on the next version of something always starts the moment the prior version is released)
15:45 PerlJam yes, the "over a decade" comment is just plain wrong.
15:46 Debolaz Well, actually it just says "a decade", not "over a decade".
15:46 * Debolaz coughs.
15:46 PerlJam Perhaps the original author meant to start counting from the inception of Topaz?
15:46 PerlJam Debolaz: still wrong.
15:46 TreyHarris what happened in 1996?
15:48 PerlJam nothing spectacular that I can remember.  We were firmly in the era of widespread perl5 adoption and perl6 wasn't even a glimmer in someone's eye.
15:49 [particle] i'd classify parrot as vaporware, under the "Overambitious hype" definition in wikipedia's Vaporware entry
15:49 Debolaz I'll just remove perl 6 from the list.
15:49 Debolaz I'm not removing parrot though.
15:49 TreyHarris in any case, that page would be fair game by my limited understanding of wikipedia policies for total deletion.  there are no citations
15:50 [particle] but, i don't ever recall a date being set for parrot release, so perhaps it can't be called vaporware if there are no promises as to when it will be available
15:50 TreyHarris actually, there are four URLs.  so removing every entry but those four would certainly be fairest game :)
15:51 PerlJam If perl6 isn't vaporware, then neither is parrot.
15:52 Debolaz PerlJam: That's not a logical conclusion since parrot isn't perl6.
15:52 Debolaz Parrot can be vaporware (Not saying it is) without perl 6 being vaporware.
15:53 [particle] i doubt many in the technical community classify either as vaporware, as ars technica et al write articles and announcements about them
15:53 PerlJam true, but they both fail the "overambitious hype" test :-)
15:53 integral you can download parrot-xxx.tar.gz but not perl6-xxx.tar.gz :)
15:53 [particle] s/write/publish/
15:53 TreyHarris Debolaz: your edit wasn't technically valid.  you can't remove or add a statement on wikipedia based on your understanding of it's validity.  only based on external sources.  but that page is such a mess, it probably doesn't matter.
15:53 Debolaz There were a lot of articles and announcements (And still is) about Duke Nukem Forever too though. :)
15:53 TreyHarris s/it's/its/
15:54 Debolaz TreyHarris: I probably should've phrased it differently. I'll elaborate on the talk page.
15:55 audreyt you can't download c++-x.y.z.tar.gz either
15:55 audreyt that doesn't mean C++ is vapourware :)
15:56 TreyHarris == audreyt
15:56 [particle] karma C
15:56 jabbot [particle]: C has karma of 124
15:57 lumi Slightly overrated
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15:58 integral audreyt: I meant implementation :)  There's no tarball of the "official" perl6 yet
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16:00 audreyt there's no official C++ either...
16:00 Limbic_Region integral - just came in but word on the stree that the "official" perl 6 is a specification not an implementation
16:00 audreyt neither is there a parrot that patches PDDs... :)
16:00 audreyt *matches
16:01 audreyt but yes. there's no release of any software that matches the criterion of official perl6, which is pass 100% of tests with zero todos
16:01 audreyt in that sense it's definitely not released :)
16:04 Debolaz TreyHarris: Aight, added a bit to the talk page now.
16:08 TreyHarris Debolaz: i've removed almost everything from the page now anyway
16:13 PerlJam TreyHarris: it's interesting that you cite WP:NOR when WP:V seems to be more appropriate  :)
16:13 TreyHarris PerlJam: WP:NOR always implies WP:V
16:14 PerlJam I'm just poking at you :)
16:14 TreyHarris but I was going for NOR, because I didn't want to spend the find verifying the sources, just ensuring they existed :)
16:14 TreyHarris s/find/time/
16:16 svnbot6 r14517 | fglock++ | v6 - The '-B' switch can now be used to invoke alternate backends.
16:16 svnbot6 r14517 | fglock++ | The default is '-BPugs::Emitter::Perl6::Perl5'.
16:22 svnbot6 r14518 | fglock++ | v6 - backend specification is better written as
16:22 svnbot6 r14518 | fglock++ |  '-Bperl5:Pugs::Emitter::Perl6::Perl5'
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16:33 fglock v6/emitter is now open for hacking :)
16:33 svnbot6 r14519 | fglock++ | v6 - documented the -B switch in the POD
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16:51 cj thanks, TimToady
17:00 svnbot6 r14520 | fglock++ | v6 - improved "description" in POD - talk about each required module
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17:10 fglock I wonder if it makes sense to add a switch like '-GPugs::Grammar::Perl6' for selecting the v6.pm grammar
17:10 audreyt I think it does
17:10 [particle] are you going to have a switch for different ASTs?
17:10 fglock audreyt: cool - will do :)
17:11 fglock [particle]: yes, it can be modular
17:11 [particle] so, then it's basically a generic vm
17:11 [particle] compiler/vm
17:12 fglock "if you can't write a complete program, add plugins"
17:13 audreyt TheSentenceBelowSolvesAllProblemExceptForTheSentenceBelowThat
17:13 fglock [particle]: the alternate compilers will still be based on the perl6 compilation subsystem (grammars, precedence parser)
17:13 audreyt OneMoreLevelOfIndirection
17:13 fglock [particle]: much like Parrot :)
17:13 audreyt TheProblemTheAboveSentenceCauses
17:14 [particle] sure, but you can write a C grammar, or a TAP grammar, or a patch grammar, with its own ast, and it's own emitter to <your vm lang here>
17:14 fglock [particle]: or you can write a grammar and use the p6 emitter for free
17:14 fglock emitters
17:15 [particle] well, if the AST is the same
17:16 fglock btw, misc/pX/Common/Pugs-Compiler-Python ...
17:16 [particle] hrmm.... Pugs-Compiler-PIR
17:17 fglock PIR-in-perl5? :)
17:17 [particle] why not :)
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17:24 fglock done
17:24 svnbot6 r14521 | fglock++ | v6 - implemented -G switch for selecting the Grammar front-end.
17:24 svnbot6 r14521 | fglock++ | Default is '-Gperl5:Pugs::Grammar::Perl6'. Anything else is untested.
17:24 svnbot6 r14520 | fglock++ | v6 - improved "description" in POD - talk about each required module
17:25 [particle] what's with the repeated old commit logs, svnbot?
17:25 fglock it still requires Pugs::Grammar::Perl6, so you can modify small portions of the grammar if you want
17:30 svnbot6 r14522 | fglock++ | v6 - fixed hardcoded grammar reference
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17:46 svnbot6 r14523 | fglock++ | v6 - added YAML emitter '-Bperl5:Pugs::Emitter::Perl6::YAML'
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17:49 svnbot6 r14524 | fglock++ | v6 - don't try to run Perl::Tidy on non-perl5 code
17:50 avar does Perl 6 have a shorthand for my $subbbie_cache; sub subbie { return $subbie_cache if $subbie_cache; $subbie_cache = some_call() }
17:50 avar like sub subbie is Cached { some_call() }
17:52 audreyt "is cached" I think
17:52 audreyt S06
17:52 audreyt see if there's tests?
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17:54 fglock Lorn: hi
17:55 Lorn fglock: hi
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17:55 Lorn fglock: audrey is comming sunday, rigth?
17:55 fglock audreyt: Lorn will pick you up
17:57 fglock at Sao Paulo airport
17:57 Lorn fglock: i achieve, contact with mago
17:57 avar audreyt: I'll check
17:58 audreyt fglock: cool! thanks
17:58 audreyt Lorn: how should I recognize you?
17:58 fglock Lorn: yes, we talked today
17:59 Lorn fglock: and we have a problem :) larry comming 1 nov, 11:30 and you 10:00 but, you can change your fly to the guarulhos airport?
17:59 fglock Lorn: Larry won't code to Sao Paulo - I'll send you a mail
18:00 fglock s/code/come/
18:00 Lorn audreyt: hi, i dont know yet :) i say to you tomorrow
18:01 Lorn fglock: [pt-br] ele não vai vir? [/pt-br]
18:02 avar audreyt: nope, no test case
18:02 avar where are the traits test cases?
18:03 audreyt /Users/audreyt/work/pugs/t/blocks/sub_parameter_traits.t
18:03 audreyt I think t/blocks/ should split into t/subs/
18:03 audreyt for things that are testing subs that is
18:03 fglock Lorn: I sent you a mail
18:04 avar audreyt: I'll poke it whet I get home probably:)
18:04 audreyt woot :)
18:06 avar argh
18:07 svnbot6 r14525 | avar++ | * rmed some whitespace to see if I can commit now
18:07 avar ghc >=6.4.1 is not is sarge
18:07 avar \o/
18:07 avar /o\
18:09 avar can I compile ghc 6.4.1 with 6.2.2
18:10 audreyt sure!
18:10 audreyt but when why don't you compile 6.6 with 6.2.2.
18:10 audreyt (remember to get extralibs and extract it in the same place in the main src)
18:13 avar uh, if 6.6 is out I can do that too:)
18:15 avar is the ghc version control publically accessible?
18:17 Debolaz TreyHarris: Seems like someone disputed removing parrot from the list (Among other things)
18:20 audreyt avar: sure, get the two tarballs at http://haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_66.html
18:20 lambdabot Title: GHC: Download version 6.6
18:21 audreyt avar: and yes, see http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc
18:21 lambdabot Title: GHC - Trac
18:21 Debolaz Hmm, no ghc 6.6 in portage. :/
18:22 Gothmog_ Try to write an ebuild, usually it's quite easy.
18:22 Gothmog_ You may post it to the Gentoo bugzilla then...
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18:23 Debolaz Nah, I'm probably going back to FreeBSD soon anyway.
18:23 eviltwin_b <audreyt> but when why don't you compile 6.6 with 6.2.2.
18:23 eviltwin_b is that supported?
18:24 * avar is doing that right now
18:25 audreyt eviltwin_b: sure is
18:27 eviltwin_b hm, thought I saw 6.6 was not happy with <6.4 or something liek that
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18:49 eviltwin_b hm, ghc-6.6 *really* wants to live in /usr/local, doesn't it
18:50 eviltwin_b (tried to install the binary distrib in /opt/local.  result has mixed paths referring to /opt/local and /usr/local and doesn't actually work...)
18:50 mauke source distro works fine here
18:51 integral a ./configure --prefix=/opt/local has worked fine for me...
18:52 eviltwin_b (OSX PPC)
18:52 integral yes, that's what I've got.
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19:17 svnbot6 r14526 | fglock++ | v6 - implemented YAML grammar frontend. v6.pm can now parse & emit YAML using:
19:17 svnbot6 r14526 | fglock++ |   perl -Ilib -e 'use v6-alpha' - --compile-only
19:17 svnbot6 r14526 | fglock++ |   -Bperl5:Pugs::Emitter::Perl6::YAML -Gperl5:Pugs::Grammar::YAML
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19:23 svnbot6 r14527 | fglock++ | v6 - rename Pugs::Emitter::Perl6::YAML to Pugs::Emitter::YAML
19:24 fglock Perl6->YAML + YAML->Perl5 now works!
19:26 avar fglock: can you paste example Perl6->YAML output somwhere?:)
19:26 * avar still compiling ghc
19:26 fglock avar: one sec
19:28 pasteling "fglock" at 200.17.89.80 pasted "example Perl6->YAML with v6.pm" (50 lines, 864B) at http://sial.org/pbot/20655
19:36 svnbot6 r14528 | fglock++ | v6 - Makefile.PL: changed 'YAML::Syck' from 'recommended' to 'required'
19:36 svnbot6 r14528 | fglock++ | - MANIFEST: add Pugs::Emitter::Perl6::Perl5 back
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19:39 PerlJam mine eyes doth play tricks on me.  I read "Makeshift.PL" and had to do a double take.  :)
19:41 fglock PerlJam: mixed up Makefile with YAML::Syck :)
19:41 Juerd PerlJam: use less '...' :)
19:41 Juerd Where ... can be any of drugs, alcohol, etc :)
19:41 kolibrie avar: ghc 6.6 is in unstable, if you want to pull from there
19:42 avar kolibrie: I don't
19:43 avar or is it not a PITA through some amazing blessing of dog?
19:44 kolibrie I don't know, I run unstable
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19:52 svnbot6 r14529 | fglock++ | v6 - initialize '$backend_identifier' to 'perl5'
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20:09 robotron hi
20:12 robotron i have to write a little term paper about perl6, parrot and pugs. okay, i wrote my first line perl today. is there a good book for perl6 for not "so experienced" perl users?
20:12 PerlJam robotron: no.
20:13 PerlJam robotron: Just "Perl 6 and Parrot Essentials"
20:13 PerlJam robotron: which is hopelessly out of date :)
20:13 robotron oh, ok, thanks for the info
20:14 seano robotron: if this is for a PL course, is it too late to choose another language?
20:15 seano maybe one you're more familiar with, or one that is less rapidly-moving?
20:15 robotron nono, i could do it next year but: i have enough time left, i'm interessted in perl(6)
20:16 seano robotron: fair 'nuff.  what languages do you use now?  it just surprises me a bit to find someone interested in perl6 without perl5 background...
20:17 avar *** Could not load the "mtl" package in your GHC installation.
20:17 avar This is likely because the "extralibs" of GHC 6.6 was not built along with the base GHC distribution.
20:17 avar wraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!
20:17 robotron well, the "classic" student languages pascal, c(++), java, bit of haskel, and other script-languages
20:19 fglock audreyt: ping
20:20 kolibrie robotron: one good place to start is http://spec.pugscode.org
20:20 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
20:21 seano robotron: cool, broader selection than most students.
20:25 fglock audreyt: unping (just sent mail)
20:43 * avar murders projects that post release notes that contain no dates
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21:15 robotron smal question: i dint find anything in the pugs-manpage to get parrot-bytecode
21:19 kolibrie robotron: http://parrotcode.org
21:19 lambdabot Title: Parrot Virtual Machine - parrotcode
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21:27 robotron kolibrie: i got parrot already
21:28 robotron pugs can create pir-files, or?
21:50 * avar finds trailing commas for meth/sub disambig odd
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