Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-11-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 hexmode` joined perl6
00:00 anatolyv quit
00:01 Aankhen`` joined perl6
00:01 clkao audreyt: svk log --output stats
00:01 clkao apply -l 100 or whatever you like
00:03 obra cool
00:06 audreyt clkao: obrigada
00:07 clkao not gado ?
00:07 audreyt curiously the gender is dependent on the one saying it
00:07 audreyt not the one receiving it
00:08 audreyt just discovered that today ;)
00:09 obra "I am obligated"
00:11 obra Now, how do you say "Don't shoot, I'm a table!"
00:18 cognominal Is there a short way in rules to say  <thing>s separated, say, by comma
00:18 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
00:18 cognominal this comes over and over.
00:18 audreyt well, there's four variants
00:19 audreyt sepBy, sepByEnd, sepBy1 and sepByEnd1 in parsec speak
00:19 Caelum hmm, the debian/ directory in svn is out of date, and the latest debian package in sid is 6.2.10
00:19 audreyt depending whether you want to match "foo," and "foo"
00:19 cognominal and in Perl6 speak?
00:20 [particle] <foo> [<', '> <foo>]*
00:20 audreyt the by-hand /<foo> [, <foo>]*/ is currently the only way I think
00:21 cognominal rule thinglist {  [ <thing>  [  \,  <thing>    ]* ]? }
00:21 cognominal this merits some huffmanization
00:22 cognominal apparently Parsec did it
00:22 cognominal ...as you said
00:23 audreyt <sep(/,/, /thing/)> perhaps?
00:23 cognominal that you would be nice
00:24 cognominal probably a very good example of a rule as sub with parameters
00:24 [particle] agreed
00:26 audreyt I wonder if ws can autosep two or more rx params
00:26 audreyt <sep , <thing>>
00:26 audreyt would be very nice.
00:26 audreyt cognominal: p6l? :)
00:27 [particle] <thing :sep<,>>
00:27 cognominal my outgoing mail is out of order
00:27 audreyt that makes <thing> take param
00:28 audreyt according to S05
00:28 audreyt because : is also "commit" node
00:28 [particle] inside a rule name?
00:28 audreyt that turns into <thing(/: sep <,>/)>
00:28 cognominal rule sep(Rule separator, Rule separated, bool allowNone) { ... }
00:28 [particle] yep
00:28 audreyt yes, S05:676
00:29 [particle] so, can you specify what kind of regex you want inside another regex?
00:29 audreyt kind?
00:29 [particle] if <thing> is a token
00:29 [particle] <thing i'm a regex>
00:29 [particle] ...passed to a token
00:30 [particle] hrmm
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00:30 [particle] <thing :sigspace testing 1 2 3>
00:30 audreyt *nod*
00:30 audreyt <thing :!sigspace moose>
00:30 [particle] that needs tests
00:31 audreyt that does
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01:06 cmarcelo audreyt: "fun" in -Ofun translates better imho as "divertimento"..
01:07 audreyt but that word is so long...
01:09 cmarcelo what about "diversão"?
01:10 [particle] audreyt: it's a big word, but it's maximum fun!
01:11 cmarcelo indeed :)
01:12 cmarcelo audreyt: have sketches of the slides yet?
01:16 nothingmuch joined perl6
01:19 audreyt cmarcelo: sketches? yes
01:19 audreyt details, not at all
01:19 cmarcelo correction: imho fun => "diversão" :)
01:20 cmarcelo rather than "divertimento"..
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01:31 audreyt gotcha :)
01:31 cmarcelo audreyt: yay! I've just borrowed a macbook (with only 512mb, though) for the event. is GHC 6.6 working fine in OSX or should I go Linux?
01:32 eviltwin_b works fine on OSX/PPC, dunno about intel
01:33 audreyt 512 is quite sufficient
01:33 audreyt it's my main work machine so GHC should work Just Fine
01:34 audreyt just grab http://haskell.org/ghc/dist/6.6/ghc-6.6-i386-apple-darwin.tar.bz2 and install
01:34 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/y74lc3
01:34 audreyt this is great, that means we get to use subetha and other cool things
01:34 jrockway i think there's a GNOME equivalent of subethaedit around now
01:34 cmarcelo gobby
01:34 audreyt Gobby it is
01:35 cmarcelo subetha = free?
01:35 jrockway different protocol, though, I think
01:35 audreyt doesn't quite work on OSX here
01:35 jrockway subetha = no source code
01:35 eviltwin_b free for nmoncommercial use, closed source
01:35 audreyt gobby = doesn't build here :/
01:35 jrockway weird
01:36 audreyt I can always Parallel into Ubuntu or something
01:36 jrockway on intel/x86 + X11?
01:36 audreyt yes, but OSX
01:36 jrockway yeah, i meant OSX instead of x86 :(
01:36 jrockway weird
01:36 audreyt a .dmg or .pkg build will be much appreciated...
01:37 jrockway heh, my OS X install DVD doesn't work anymore, so my powerbook is OpenBSD now :)
01:37 jrockway not quite as nice GUI-wise as OSX...
01:37 audreyt that's cool :)
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02:07 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
02:14 nipotaway is now known as nipotan
02:45 audreyt @tell fglock see you tomorrow :)
02:45 lambdabot Consider it noted.
02:45 audreyt &
02:48 cmarcelo left perl6
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03:15 pasteling "ashleyb" at 66.201.51.66 pasted "test that causes P::C::R to hang" (10 lines, 253B) at http://sial.org/pbot/20775
03:15 ashleyb what should I do with the previous test (it causes P::C::R to hang)?
03:17 ashleyb seen fglock?
03:17 jabbot ashleyb: fglock was seen 6 hours 13 minutes 21 seconds ago
03:18 ashleyb @tell fglock the following test causes P::C::R to hang:  http://sial.org/pbot/20775 -- how should I work it into the test suite?
03:18 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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04:12 svnbot6 r14564 | cmeyer++ | tests for &statement_control:<>
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05:01 davidfetter seen fglock
05:01 jabbot davidfetter: fglock was seen 7 hours 57 minutes 30 seconds ago
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06:18 svnbot6 r14565 | agentz++ | [util/smartlinks.pl]
06:18 svnbot6 r14565 | agentz++ | - added a link to my pugs.blogs.com post
06:18 svnbot6 r14565 | agentz++ |   http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2006/09/check_smoke_res.html
06:18 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/gdyy8
06:20 bsb left perl6
06:20 svnbot6 r14566 | agentz++ | [t/README]
06:20 svnbot6 r14566 | agentz++ | - added links to the pugs.blogs.com posts
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06:33 svnbot6 r14567 | raptor++ | added range tests
06:40 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
06:49 meppl guten morgen
06:51 svnbot6 r14568 | raptor++ | lowercasing lowecase string and UPPER case char-range.
06:51 root4o morgen ..... but it is night here ;)
06:52 davidfetter night here, too
06:52 iblechbot joined perl6
07:04 meppl good morning root4o
07:04 meppl good night davedfetter
07:08 root4o meppl: how is the weather in germany?
07:12 meppl sunny, but a bit cold
07:12 meppl hm
07:13 meppl that prediction is wrong:     http://www.wetteronline.de/Bayern/Wuerzburg.htm
07:13 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/ushjz
07:15 meppl http://wetter.rtl.de/deutschland/uebersicht.php?id=10655&amp;id2=10655&amp;ort=wuerzburg
07:15 perlbot joined perl6
07:15 lambdabot Title: wetter.de, http://tinyurl.com/yk4f44
07:15 meppl says the same
07:15 meppl perhaps that clouds are comings soon
07:15 meppl now there are no clouds
07:15 esstone joined perl6
07:18 root4o last days it became colder here too...but at noon still is possible to be with t-shirt ;)
07:20 bcorn joined perl6
07:21 meppl what scale unit do you use for temperatures?
07:21 mugwump joined perl6
07:22 root4o Farenheit here , celsius at my home....
07:22 * eviltwin_b watches pugs do a complete rebuild
07:22 meppl so
07:22 meppl do you live in the usa?
07:23 root4o these farenheits, inches and paunds...still can't become use to it ;)
07:23 meppl good morning eviltwin b
07:23 root4o at the moment yes
07:24 root4o use = used
07:25 meppl yo
07:26 meppl and the usa should use DINA4, instead of that "letter" asdf  ;->
07:26 * eviltwin_b sometimes wishes the US would get a clue, but then he remembers that he too is a bit too canalized in Imperial units :)
07:27 root4o UK are using metric system, right ?
07:29 clkao most of the time
07:30 meppl i thought they use that pounds
07:31 eviltwin_b pounds as a unit of money, but they use grams for weight/mass these days
07:31 meppl for weight-mensuration
07:31 meppl so, thats not the metric system
07:32 * eviltwin_b pretty much only hears and reads grams/kilograms from them these days
07:32 eviltwin_b I'm sure some older folks still use Imperial units
07:36 svnbot6 r14569 | raptor++ | added combined uc/lc test
07:36 root4o ?eval (1..5).chars
07:36 evalbot_r14563 is now known as evalbot_r14569
07:36 evalbot_r14569 9
07:36 root4o why this gives : 9 !
07:37 revdiablo ?eval (1..5)
07:37 evalbot_r14569 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
07:37 root4o aha it counts commas
07:37 revdiablo ?eval (1..5).elems
07:37 evalbot_r14569 5
07:38 root4o yeah, i know i wanted to see 'chars' ;)
07:41 root4o what does .pick does on array and hashes ? ... picks random element , or ?
07:49 eviltwin_b ?eval (1..10).pick
07:49 evalbot_r14569 7
07:49 eviltwin_b ?eval (1..10).pick
07:49 evalbot_r14569 6
07:49 eviltwin_b ?eval {:a<b>, :c<d>, :e<f>}.pick
07:49 evalbot_r14569 ("e" => "f")
07:49 eviltwin_b ?eval {:a<b>, :c<d>, :e<f>}.pick
07:49 evalbot_r14569 ("c" => "d")
07:50 clkao seen audreyt
07:50 jabbot clkao: audreyt was seen 5 hours 4 minutes 45 seconds ago
08:00 eviltwin_b ?eval ~(1..5)
08:00 evalbot_r14569 "1 2 3 4 5"
08:00 eviltwin_b correct answer to the question about .chars :)
08:02 root4o ;)
08:04 miyagawa_ clkao: ping
08:04 clkao miyagawa_: pong
08:04 miyagawa_ what can I do to make svk co faster?
08:04 clkao miyagawa_: perlbal rocks
08:04 clkao which operation
08:04 miyagawa_ checkout
08:04 miyagawa_ I'm checking out plagger trunk
08:05 clkao checkout from already mirrored depot ?
08:05 miyagawa_ which takes 10 minutes wich CPU 100% usage
08:05 miyagawa_ yes
08:05 clkao so
08:05 clkao can you run it with dprof and nopaste me the dprofpp?
08:05 clkao it shouldn't be that slow
08:05 miyagawa_ ok
08:06 clkao but i am falling asleep soon
08:06 miyagawa_ it wasn't that slow
08:06 miyagawa_ bu as the local mirrored repository grows, it gets really slow
08:06 miyagawa_ I'll take a dprof
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08:21 root4o good night , all
08:22 root4o left perl6
08:24 miyagawa_ clkao: it takes about 0.8 second for each file and directory
08:25 miyagawa_ which makes checking out the whole plagger trunk take 30 minutes
08:26 clkao interesting. maybe it's fsfs being slow
08:26 clkao it's using a lot of IO
08:28 miyagawa_ http://bulknews.net/tmp/tmon.out.gz
08:33 miyagawa_ running dprofpp against it. might take forever :)
08:33 clkao 81.6   595.8 595.88 304426   0.0020 0.0020  Data::Hierarchy::_ancestors
08:33 clkao haa haaaaaa
08:33 miyagawa_ interesting
08:33 kane-xs maybe even longer... maybe even.. till christmas
08:33 clkao svk co --purge ?
08:34 miyagawa_ done.
08:34 miyagawa_ may i do it again?
08:35 clkao yep see if it's faster
08:35 miyagawa_ FYI, I did it and purged 3 checkouts
08:35 clkao not too much
08:35 clkao but co shouldnt use that many ancestors
08:36 miyagawa_ running svk co again
08:36 miyagawa_ hmm, might be a little faster. Just a little.
08:36 clkao ok
08:36 drrho joined perl6
08:37 clkao let me see tomorrow
08:37 clkao must sleep
08:37 miyagawa_ does upgrading svk help?
08:37 clkao probably
08:37 miyagawa_ I'm using 1.08
08:44 miyagawa_ FWIW plagger trunk has 834 files
08:45 clkao that's not too much
08:45 clkao but remind me again tomorrow
08:45 clkao or send me a hiveminder task
08:50 miyagawa_ %Time ExclSec CumulS #Calls sec/call Csec/c  Name
08:50 miyagawa_ 83.1   370.0 370.01 245432   0.0015 0.0015  Data::Hierarchy::_ancestors
08:50 miyagawa_ 10.2   45.57 429.85 245432   0.0002 0.0018  Data::Hierarchy::get
08:50 miyagawa_ 3.97   17.67 451.96   1035   0.0171 0.4367  Data::Hierarchy::_remove_redundant
08:50 miyagawa_                   3                         _properties_and_undefs
08:50 miyagawa_ 2.45   10.91 10.912  52920   0.0002 0.0002  Storable::dclone
08:50 miyagawa_ (after svk co --purge)
08:50 miyagawa_ sent as an email, too
08:51 TSa joined perl6
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08:56 TSa HaloO
08:56 clkao miyagawa_: can you try trunk first. the code has been cleaned up a bit
08:56 miyagawa_ ok
09:04 miyagawa_ clkao: upgraded to trunk and apparently it's much faster.
09:05 clkao cool!
09:08 miyagawa_ yeah, it's 170 sec now. 3 times faster ;)
09:09 miyagawa_ %Time ExclSec CumulS #Calls sec/call Csec/c  Name
09:09 miyagawa_ 85.0   131.1 131.13 245445   0.0005 0.0005  Data::Hierarchy::_ancestors
09:09 miyagawa_ 9.13   14.08 149.90 245445   0.0001 0.0006  Data::Hierarchy::get
09:09 miyagawa_ 2.92   4.500 155.70   1035   0.0043 0.1504  Data::Hierarchy::_remove_redundant
09:11 elmex joined perl6
09:12 miyagawa_ Hmm, Data::Hierarchy::_ancestors has a pretty good comment left
09:12 miyagawa_ # XXX: could build cached pointer for fast traversal
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09:23 eggzeck[laptop] joined perl6
09:23 clkao but it shouldn't be called 245 thousand times
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11:50 dmq seen timtoady?
11:50 jabbot dmq: I havn't seen timtoady, dmq
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12:10 audreyt greetings lambdacamels
12:11 TSa HaloO audrey
12:11 audreyt TSa: heya
12:11 TSa public holiyday in southern Germany
12:12 audreyt cool
12:12 audreyt I'm writing a reply to mmd-draft.txt thread
12:12 TSa that's nice
12:12 TSa you hardly post into p6l
12:13 TSa what is the state of affairs with MMD
12:13 TSa I've seen all these docs next to mmd-draft.txt
12:14 TSa looks a bit unconclusive so far
12:15 pnu joined perl6
12:15 audreyt mmd-draft.txt subsumes them
12:16 audreyt reply sent
12:17 TSa I can look into it tomorrow at work
12:17 TSa but we can discuss the voting now if you like
12:18 audreyt sure
12:19 audreyt so consider the easy case
12:19 audreyt where there's no semicolons
12:19 TSa the unclear part is the score cards that every target keeps
12:19 TSa Ok, I'm with you
12:19 audreyt the score cards is really two Sets
12:19 audreyt the Voting Set and the Qualified Set
12:20 audreyt in other words each variant carries two Bool
12:20 TSa sets of targets that is
12:20 audreyt for each variant
12:20 audreyt yes
12:20 audreyt so consider
12:20 audreyt :(Str, Int) # M1
12:20 audreyt :(Int, Str) # M2
12:21 TSa OK
12:21 audreyt because there's no semicolons, everybody's Voting Set and Qualified Set are guaranteed to be same
12:21 TSa OK
12:21 audreyt now consider
12:22 audreyt \("moose", 123)
12:22 audreyt the first step is consider "compatible"
12:22 audreyt i.e. whether M1 and M2 can both handle the args
12:23 TSa OK, that's Str, Int
12:23 TSa so M2 is out
12:23 audreyt suppose "moose" can't be handled by Int, M2 is out
12:23 audreyt there is _no_ voting
12:23 audreyt so far so good?
12:23 TSa OK, easy so far
12:23 audreyt :(Dog, Animal) # M1
12:23 audreyt :(Animal, Dog) # M2
12:23 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
12:23 audreyt suppose we have
12:24 audreyt \($fido, $fido) # Dog, Dog
12:24 audreyt and Does isa Animal
12:24 audreyt 0th round: compatibility check
12:24 audreyt both are compatible
12:24 audreyt then voting begins
12:25 audreyt again, VotingSet and QualifiedSet are the same for M1, M2
12:25 audreyt initialling VS={M1, M2}, QS={M1, M2}
12:25 TSa OK
12:26 audreyt at position 1, "A qualified variant whose parameter type is not at least as narrow as
12:26 audreyt that of each voting variant is disqualified."
12:26 audreyt which means we compare each of QS with all of VS
12:26 audreyt for position 1
12:26 TSa OK
12:26 audreyt obviously, M2 in QS loses to M1 in VS
12:26 TSa agreed
12:27 audreyt so the system process says: "everyone who has M1 in their VS, now remove M2 from their QS"
12:27 audreyt here "everyone" is M1, M2
12:27 audreyt so now VS={M1, M2} QS={M1}
12:27 audreyt makes some sense?
12:28 TSa yes, sorry was afk
12:29 audreyt VS-of-M1={M1,M2}, QS-of-M1={M1} ; VS-of-M2={M1,M2}, QS-of-M2={M1}
12:29 TSa OK
12:29 audreyt but since there's no semicolon, we don't need really to write of-M1 and of-M2
12:29 TSa why not?
12:30 TSa ahh they are the same
12:30 audreyt because the worldviews differ only when semi are encountered in different places
12:30 audreyt but anyway. let's go to position 2
12:30 TSa OK
12:30 audreyt at pos2, "A qualified variant whose parameter type is not at least as narrow as that of each voting variant is disqualified."
12:30 audreyt again, we compare each of QS with all of VS
12:30 audreyt for position 2
12:30 TSa OK
12:31 audreyt which emans we compare M1 to both M1 and M2
12:31 audreyt curiously, M1 in QS loses to M2 in VS
12:31 audreyt so the system process says: "everyone who has M2 in their VS, now remove M1 from their QS"
12:31 audreyt so now, VS={M1, M2} QS={}
12:31 TSa OK
12:31 audreyt ok so far?
12:31 audreyt now we go to position
12:32 TSa yes
12:32 audreyt 3
12:32 audreyt but there is no position 3
12:32 audreyt so the decision process terminates
12:32 audreyt we tally the QS to see if there's one item left
12:32 audreyt but it's a zero set
12:32 TSa and we have an ambiguity
12:32 audreyt so the system fails with "ambiguity"
12:32 audreyt yes.
12:33 audreyt now consider
12:33 audreyt :(Dog ; Animal) # M
12:33 audreyt M1
12:33 TSa OK
12:33 audreyt :(Animal ; Dog) # M2
12:33 audreyt the semis align, so again world views will be the same
12:33 audreyt \($fido, $fido)
12:34 audreyt 0 - compatibility check - all pass
12:34 TSa OK
12:34 audreyt VS={M1, M2}, QS={M1, M2}
12:34 audreyt 1 - Removal of M2 from QS
12:34 TSa OK
12:34 audreyt VS={M1,M2}, QS={M1}
12:34 TSa clear
12:34 audreyt "When a variant encounters a single semicolon in its own signature, all
12:34 audreyt non-qualified variants on its own score card, only, are marked as also
12:34 audreyt non-voting."
12:35 TSa hmm
12:35 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
12:35 audreyt which means VS = intersection(VS,QS)
12:35 audreyt so at the semi after pos 1
12:36 audreyt both variant change their VS
12:36 audreyt VS={M1}, QS={M1}
12:36 audreyt makes sense?
12:37 TSa the transfer from the wording to the intersection is difficult
12:38 TSa how come to intersect QS and VS at the semicolon pso
12:38 audreyt ok. the wording says, when semicolon is seen
12:38 audreyt we take complement of QS
12:38 audreyt i.e. the set of non-qualified
12:38 TSa ahh
12:39 audreyt and subtract it from VS
12:39 TSa that's {M2} here
12:39 audreyt which is like, intersection
12:39 audreyt yes.
12:39 TSa OK, got it
12:39 audreyt good. now at pos2
12:39 audreyt we compare each of QS with all of VS
12:39 audreyt {M1} doesn't lose to {M1}
12:39 audreyt nothing happens
12:40 audreyt so we are at the end
12:40 audreyt QS={M1}
12:40 audreyt unambiguous win
12:40 audreyt yay :)
12:40 TSa OK, that was homogenous cases so far
12:40 audreyt yes. no consider
12:41 audreyt :(Dog, Animal) # M1
12:41 audreyt :(Animal; Dog) # M2
12:41 audreyt can you go through the process as an exercise now? :)
12:41 TSa 0 both qualify
12:42 TSa 1 M1 wins over M2
12:42 TSa hmm so we have QS = {M1} VS = {M1,M2}
12:42 audreyt but now they diverge
12:43 audreyt so we must write QS1 VS1 QS2 VS2
12:43 TSa one behaves as comma the other as semicolon
12:44 TSa is it still me?
12:44 audreyt QS1={M1} VS1={M1,M2}
12:44 audreyt QS2={M1} QS2={M1}
12:44 audreyt QS2={M1} VS2={M1}
12:45 audreyt at position 2
12:45 audreyt QS1={} VS1={M1,M2}
12:45 audreyt QS2={M1} VS2={M1}
12:45 audreyt makes sense?
12:45 TSa yes, basically the two cases we had before in one
12:45 audreyt but it's still ambig
12:46 TSa because of VS1?
12:46 audreyt because there's no consensus
12:46 TSa ahh
12:46 audreyt the deciding factor is all variants must agree on one single M
12:47 audreyt :(Dog ; Animal) # M1
12:47 audreyt :(Animal, Dog) # M2
12:47 audreyt you can do this yourself this time :)
12:48 * audreyt goes eating some breakfast -- bbiab in 5min
12:48 TSa how did you do this 'goes eating...' ?
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12:49 audreyt /me smiles
12:49 audreyt try typing that
12:49 * TSa smiles
12:49 TSa ahh
12:50 TSa enjoy your breakfast
12:51 audreyt thanks :)
12:53 audreyt back
12:53 audreyt so as you probably figured out by now
12:53 TSa that was a quick breakfast
12:53 audreyt moving the semi to M1 doesn't affect the outcome
12:53 TSa you are in a hotel in Brazil, right?
12:53 audreyt it's still ambig
12:53 audreyt QS1={M1} VS1={M1}
12:54 audreyt QS2={} VS2={M1,M2}
12:54 audreyt is the result
12:54 audreyt yes in Holiday Inn
12:54 audreyt 13:48  * audreyt goes eating some breakfast -- bbiab in 5min
12:54 audreyt 13:53 < audreyt> back
12:54 audreyt well I did say 5 min :)
12:54 TSa how much did you eat
12:54 TSa or was that just an espresso?
12:56 audreyt I ate quite a lot, thanks :)
12:56 TSa in 5 mins?
12:56 TSa I'm impressed
12:56 audreyt it's just I operate in a slightly higher clock speed when eating...
12:56 audreyt anyway.
12:57 audreyt now consider
12:57 audreyt :(Dog ;; Animal) # M1
12:57 audreyt :(Animal, Dog) # M2
12:57 audreyt \($fido, $fido)
12:57 TSa is that ;; official?
12:57 audreyt not yet. although it's just notation
12:57 audreyt what we write in mmd-draft
12:57 audreyt :(A ; B; C ;; D)
12:57 audreyt is currently in S12
12:57 audreyt :(A ; B ; C ; D)
12:57 audreyt and what we write as
12:58 audreyt :(A ; B)
12:58 audreyt is in S12
12:58 audreyt :(A ; B ;)
12:58 TSa I see
12:58 audreyt i.e. currently in S12 the final semi is what mmd-draft has as double demi
12:58 Limbic_Region joined perl6
12:58 audreyt so it's just notation; dispatch works the same either way
12:58 audreyt Limbic_Region: greetings
12:58 audreyt so, back to
12:59 audreyt 13:57 < audreyt> :(Dog ;; Animal) # M1
12:59 audreyt 13:57 < audreyt> :(Animal, Dog) # M2
12:59 audreyt 13:57 < audreyt> \($fido, $fido)
12:59 audreyt 0: compatible
12:59 TSa OK
12:59 audreyt 1: QS={M1} VS={M1,M2}
12:59 audreyt at the ;; now
12:59 audreyt ; is a local action
12:59 audreyt that only affects oneself
12:59 audreyt ;; is a global action
12:59 audreyt that _removes_ oneself from everybody 's VS
13:00 audreyt so M1 says
13:00 audreyt "please everybody remove me from VS thanks"
13:00 audreyt so now globally it's
13:00 audreyt QS={M1} VS={M2}
13:00 audreyt makes sense?
13:00 TSa yes
13:00 TSa even though I don't see the benefit yet
13:01 audreyt so now position 2:
13:01 audreyt M2 wins over M1
13:01 audreyt QS={} VS={M2}
13:01 audreyt globally
13:01 audreyt dies with ambiguity
13:01 audreyt makes sense?
13:01 audreyt finally let's consider the reverse case.
13:01 audreyt :(Dog, Animal) # M1
13:02 audreyt :(Animal ;; Dog) # M2
13:02 TSa sorry why ambiguity?
13:02 audreyt QS is null
13:02 TSa ahh, OK
13:02 audreyt this time, 0:compatible, 1: QS={M1}, VS={M1,M2}
13:02 audreyt but now it's M2 telling everybody to remove it from VS
13:02 audreyt so globally:
13:02 audreyt QS={M1}, VS={M1}
13:03 audreyt position 2, nothing happens
13:03 audreyt finally, M1 wins
13:03 TSa I see
13:03 audreyt the benefit is that M2 can say
13:03 audreyt "I list Dog here only for compatibility purpose"
13:03 audreyt "I don't want it to disqualify other people"
13:04 TSa just for getting the two sets right
13:05 TSa VS are still in the race
13:05 audreyt nono
13:05 audreyt QS are still in the race
13:05 TSa what is VS saying then?
13:05 audreyt if something is in VS but not in QS
13:05 audreyt then it can't win itself
13:05 audreyt but it can pull others down
13:05 audreyt it's a "spoiler"
13:06 audreyt it's not a candidate, it's a voter
13:06 TSa aha
13:07 TSa what are the properties of that system?
13:07 TSa is it symmetric?
13:08 Limbic_Region audreyt - salutations
13:08 Limbic_Region .seen lanny
13:08 Limbic_Region ?seen lanny
13:08 lambdabot lanny is in #perl6. I last heard lanny speak 13h 46m 50s ago.
13:08 audreyt kolibrie: what are the properties of this system? :)
13:08 Limbic_Region no word then on if the slow down rev was isolated
13:09 lanny_ joined perl6
13:09 audreyt TSa: if by symmetric you mean the order of Ms doesn't matter, sure
13:09 audreyt it has some stronger properties though
13:10 audreyt if M1 loses to M2 in {M1,M2} alone, and M2 loses to M3 in {M2, M3} alone
13:10 audreyt then {M1,M2,M3} will have M3 as winner
13:10 audreyt I forgot what's name for this property
13:10 pasteling "lanny" at 69.22.50.12 pasted "Smoke durations" (12 lines, 175B) at http://sial.org/pbot/20780
13:10 TSa is that a kind of transitiviy
13:11 lanny_ Nopaste shows what I got for smoke durations on different revs.   The pointy if's seem to lock me but a few revs later when that's cleared up there's a small time increase.
13:11 Limbic_Region lanny_ - those times are in seconds?
13:11 lanny_ Yes.  Taken directly from smoke.html
13:12 audreyt it's "Independence of irrelevant alternatives"
13:12 audreyt IIA, I think
13:12 TSa did you look that system up somewhere?
13:12 Limbic_Region lanny - out of curiosity, what are the hw specs on that machine?
13:13 lanny_ Intel 6700 core2duo, 2G ram
13:13 lumi Would {M1, M3} also give M3, or does that not follow?
13:13 * Limbic_Region idly wonders if perhaps the time issue is related to resources
13:14 audreyt lumi: I think it also will, yes
13:14 Limbic_Region audreyt - WRT the significant slow down.  I am only seeing it on one of my two machines
13:14 audreyt TSa: no, it's based on luqui's initial design constraints
13:14 audreyt which did not consider semicolons
13:14 Limbic_Region while they both show a slow down - only one is significant
13:15 audreyt and then refined by joint design of putter, kolibrie, audreyt, with some help from stevan and gaal
13:15 audreyt Limbic_Region: ok. so it's the if-> change as I suspected?
13:16 TSa looks like I have to be afk for a while
13:16 lanny_ Sorry those results took so long.  Was tired after Halloweening and IRC was acting up for me.  Now it's time to get them ready for school.  Enjoy, all.
13:16 Limbic_Region audreyt - not according to lanny's results
13:16 Limbic_Region or rather - the spike due to that change didn't last
13:17 Limbic_Region r14488 1086secs, r11490 3578secs, r14494 1142secs
13:17 audreyt *nod*
13:18 Limbic_Region smoke.yml doesn't give individual test times does it?
13:18 audreyt not sure
13:18 audreyt probably not
13:19 Limbic_Region I am wondering if perhaps it is a particularly sick and twisted test that is causing my 512MB maching to swap thrash
13:19 Limbic_Region and the rest of the tests are fine
13:20 Limbic_Region audreyt - if I don't explitly tell it to use any of the neat new doodads for speed optimizations, will any of the probing detect and enable them behind the scenes?
13:22 audreyt Limbic_Region: no
13:22 Limbic_Region then I am leaning towards resources as an explanation
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13:22 Limbic_Region work machine = 2.8ghz w/ 512MB
13:22 * audreyt wonders if anyone can help illustrating the VS/QS diagrams above into some accessible web form
13:22 Limbic_Region home machine = 2 x 1.73ghz w/ 1GB
13:23 audreyt any takers?
13:23 audreyt "illustrated mmd-draft.txt"
13:23 audreyt ASCII art will also do :)
13:23 Limbic_Region theoretically, the home machine should only be using 1 of the 2 CPUs (as reflected by taskmanager)
13:23 Limbic_Region and yet the home machine finishes a full 20 minutes before the work machine
13:24 Limbic_Region so 1GB of ram but slower cpu finishes 20 minutes before 512MB of ram but faster cpu
13:24 dmq what would (* be a perl6 pattern? anything?
13:24 audreyt (* ?
13:25 dmq I was thinking of making the backtracking control verbs im working on in the perl5 engine be of the form (*VERB:ARG) or (*VERB)
13:25 dmq since (* is an illegal pattern in older perls.
13:26 dmq and (*FAIL) seems a little more intuitive than (?FAIL)
13:27 dmq and im just checking whether that would create a mismatch with something that perl6 might be doing.
13:27 audreyt (* is illegal in p6 rx as well
13:27 audreyt so go ahead :)
13:29 audreyt ooh, GHC -head has Devel::Cover-ish testing
13:30 audreyt so we can finally see how much of Pugs internals is not covered by t/
13:30 audreyt mental note: run -fhpc on Pugs some time soon
13:41 cmarcelo joined perl6
13:41 cmarcelo ola
13:42 audreyt oies
13:50 * kolibrie backlogged a little bit, but still didn't find the context of the discussion - how far back do I need to go?
13:51 audreyt kolibrie: TSa was asking what properties does mmd-draft.txt yes
13:52 audreyt *have
13:53 * kolibrie does not have an answer
13:55 audreyt k
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14:36 TSa HaloO, I'm back
14:39 kensanata joined perl6
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15:21 svnbot6 r14570 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: fglock++ noticed that Pugs was not composing hash variables:
15:21 svnbot6 r14570 | audreyt++ |     my $x = { %y }; # was a Block, should be Hash
15:21 svnbot6 r14570 | audreyt++ |   This fixed it and added a regression test into nested_hashrefs.t
15:30 audreyt @seen TimToady
15:30 lambdabot TimToady is in #perl6. I don't know when TimToady last spoke.
15:34 TSa many people are silently online
15:36 TSa audreyt: coming back to your mmd talks
15:36 PerlJam TSa: we're all stunned.  ;-)
15:41 audreyt TSa: would you mind doing a summary of it in some form?
15:43 TSa like a post to p6l? Yes, no problem.
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15:44 TSa the property I wanted to ask about is: does the algorithm pick a dispatch target that is more or equally specific in all positions
15:45 audreyt well it does, if there's no semicolons
15:45 audreyt and if semicolons align, then that property still holds on the first semicolon sections
15:46 TSa I see
15:47 audreyt TimToady: I hacked in "use v5;" into spec as discussed a while ago as a way to switch semantics inside e.g. /{use v5; ...}/ blocks. sanity check welcome
15:54 miyagawa_ ingy: ping
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16:39 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: Implement "use v5" blocks:
16:39 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |     use v6-alpha;
16:39 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |     # ...some Perl 6 code...
16:39 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |     {
16:39 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |         use v5;
16:39 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |         # ...some Perl 5 code...
16:40 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |         {
16:40 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |             use v6-alpha;
16:40 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |             # ...more Perl 6 code...
16:40 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |         }
16:40 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |     }
16:40 svnbot6 r14571 | audreyt++ |   Thanks to fglock++ for prompting this.
16:40 penk joined perl6
16:40 avar audreyt: is this possible as a result of lexical pragmas now working better?
16:40 avar (at all?)
16:41 cmarcelo joined perl6
16:41 cmarcelo ahoy
16:41 audreyt avar: we have lexpragmas but this is not one
16:41 audreyt this is a strange block opening wih
16:42 audreyt {usev5;
16:42 audreyt and end with
16:42 audreyt }
16:42 cmarcelo audreyt: fglock arrived?
16:42 audreyt and p5 controls parsing
16:42 audreyt cmarcelo: just arrived then went to lunch
16:42 audreyt I got a tour of src/perl5/ though
16:42 audreyt will work on unified AST today
16:42 TimToady so all perl 5 sees is Perl 5...
16:42 clkao audreyt: hi! how are things
16:42 audreyt I'm implementing lexicals
16:43 audreyt the idea is this should transparently work
16:43 audreyt sub foo ($x, $y) { use v5; $x + $y }
16:43 audreyt in both runtimes
16:43 audreyt which I _think_ makes a lot of sense
16:43 audreyt also will make boot a lot easier
16:43 audreyt clkao: doing fine :)
16:44 TimToady I suppose the only question is how many years it will take to deprecate once people start relying on it...
16:44 audreyt but I thought v6 will always subsume v5...
16:44 TimToady that's a lot of years...
16:44 TimToady eviltwin_b: (1..5).chars should be 5
16:45 TimToady it shouldn't count the spaces either.
16:45 TimToady should just be the sum of all the individual .chars
16:46 cmarcelo left perl6
16:50 TimToady unicode is like herbs and spices--it's really easy to ruin your program by adding too many of them...
16:51 TimToady but a few of them makes your program much tastier.
16:51 TimToady I18n cuisine...
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17:16 audreyt $ ./pugs -e 'sub f ($x, $y) { use v5; $x + $y }; say f(1,2)'
17:16 audreyt 3
17:16 audreyt yay
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17:18 Limbic_Region audreyt - use v5; has lexical scope?
17:18 svnbot6 r14572 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Prim: Implement passing lexical scalar variables into Perl 5,
17:18 svnbot6 r14572 | audreyt++ |   such that t/perl5/eval_lex.t now passes:
17:18 svnbot6 r14572 | audreyt++ |     sub add_in_perl5 ($x, $y) {
17:18 svnbot6 r14572 | audreyt++ |         use v5;
17:18 svnbot6 r14572 | audreyt++ |         $x + $y;
17:18 svnbot6 r14572 | audreyt++ |     }
17:18 svnbot6 r14572 | audreyt++ |     add_in_perl5(42, 42); # 84
17:18 audreyt Limbic_Region: yes, and you can even nest
17:19 audreyt use v6-alpha; ... { use v5; ... { use v6-alpha; ... } }
17:19 TimToady new horizons in Prelude.pm...
17:19 audreyt "CPAN is our Prelude"
17:19 * Limbic_Region thinks of the confusion that *could* ensue
17:19 svnbot6 r14573 | audreyt++ | * t/perl5/basic.t: Add an extra test of lexical "use v5"
17:20 [particle] sub f($x, $y) { use v5; my %h; $h{$x}= $y; return %h }; say f(1,2);
17:20 Limbic_Region overloading + in v6 but not v5 and printing the results of $x + $y in different scopes
17:20 [particle] ?eval sub f($x, $y) { use v5; my %h; $h{$x}= $y; return %h }; say f(1,2);
17:20 evalbot_r14569 is now known as evalbot_r14571
17:20 evalbot_r14571 OUTPUT[␤] Bool::True
17:20 [particle] *** Undeclared variable: "$h"
17:21 [particle] are you sure it's using perl5?
17:21 audreyt it says "12" here
17:21 audreyt it may very well be that 1) it's not yet r14572
17:22 [particle] ok, i'll wait for run.pugscode.org to catch up
17:22 audreyt also it will be nonsafe
17:22 audreyt so neither evalbot nor run.pugscode is going to help you
17:22 [particle] oh?
17:22 audreyt unless we settle on a good ops.pm mask for embperl5...
17:23 * audreyt ponders what's a good set to use
17:24 audreyt let's make it safe....
17:25 audreyt done
17:25 audreyt hopefully it won't open a huge can of worms...
17:25 svnbot6 r14574 | audreyt++ | * Mark Perl5 eval as safe under ops.pm
17:26 audreyt ?eval sub f($x, $y) { use v5; my %h; $h{$x}= $y; return %h }; say f(1,2);
17:26 evalbot_r14571 is now known as evalbot_r14573
17:26 evalbot_r14573 OUTPUT[12␤] Bool::True
17:26 audreyt there you go
17:26 [particle] yeehah!
17:28 [particle] yep works now, audreyt++ # as usual :)
17:29 audreyt :D
17:29 [particle] pugs++ # perl6 is *SO* cool!
17:30 audreyt :D
17:31 audreyt actually fglock++'s v6.pm implemented this first
17:31 audreyt I was just following his advise :)
17:31 audreyt we're working on eliminating as much redundant code and incompatibilities as possible betwen the two runtimes
17:31 audreyt it's a lot of fun :)
17:32 PerlJam and it looks from this perspective like you guys are leaving parrot out in the cold.
17:32 audreyt not on purpose...
17:32 audreyt we're also not touching JavaScript until the newAST is somewhat stable
17:32 audreyt easier to work on interop when you only have two points at a time...
17:33 audreyt ?eval use v5; 1+1
17:33 evalbot_r14573 is now known as evalbot_r14574
17:33 evalbot_r14574 2
17:33 audreyt :D
17:33 audreyt evalbot now doubles at p5evalbot :)
17:33 audreyt *as
17:34 audreyt ?eval use v5; use CGI
17:34 evalbot_r14574 Error eval perl5: "sub { use ops ($ENV{PUGS_SAFEMODE} ? (':default', 'binmode', 'entereval') : ()); my ($__evalbot_print) = @_;␤; use CGI␤␤}"␤*** 'require' trapped by operation mask at (eval 2) line 4.␤␤Error: Undefined subroutine &main:: called.␤
17:34 audreyt good.
17:35 audreyt PerlJam: also it's somewhat easier to work in interop when there are ops to inter with...
17:35 [particle] perljam: parrot will catch up quickly after pge, tge, and past are reworked
17:36 [particle] i hope, *very* quickly
17:36 audreyt I sincerely hope that too
17:36 PerlJam right, I know you're not doing it on purpose.  It's just an observation (primarily about the rapidity with which you guys work :)
17:36 PerlJam er, guys and gals :)
17:36 audreyt you can use the gender-neutral "gals". fglock wouldn't mind :)
17:37 [particle] i'd love to get fglock's and audreyt's help once parrot's ready as a vm again
17:37 [particle] since there's been so much work on parser/emitter going on, it's fresh in your minds
17:37 audreyt *nod*
17:37 [particle] i just hope parrot will be ready soon, before things are forgotten
17:38 [particle] (since code is canon, there are no docs)
17:38 audreyt well as a VM it's not that related to parsing/emitting
17:38 audreyt but if you mean tge
17:38 [particle] yeah, i mean tree transforms
17:38 audreyt then yeah, reworking the current style into tge requires, like, thoughts. and a stable tge metalang
17:38 PerlJam I'd use "you people" but then I might offend the AIs  ;-)
17:39 [particle] i like @larry's idea of a tree transform lang inside perl6
17:39 audreyt and I think it's just perl6 :)
17:39 [particle] that would make it so easy to operate with different back/front ends
17:39 audreyt I mean, structural unpacking with given/when is now strong enough to tree transform
17:39 audreyt and that's indeed my preferred style
17:39 [particle] has there been work towards using this style?
17:40 audreyt gaal worked on the underpinnings
17:40 audreyt note that Haskell is exactly the same style
17:40 audreyt just different syntax
17:40 [particle] great
17:40 audreyt so it requires a bit of porting, which I'm figuring out with fglock
17:42 [particle] so, if we can easily convert  between PAST other ASTs, and tree transformations are in the same language (a perl6 dialect,) it should be quite straightforward to hook any parser to any emitter
17:42 audreyt that's the minip6 parser/transformer combinator plan I've advocated for some time now...
17:42 [particle] i'm on that train, too
17:42 audreyt and indeed fglock put that into reality with modular v6.pm last week
17:43 [particle] so, perl5 could become the vm for parrot's tcl
17:43 [particle] (once tge is reworked)
17:44 Limbic_Region [particle] - if you want to see that happen, suggest to mdiep that it *might* be possible but that you doubt it ;-)
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17:44 PerlJam though I haven't really been paying close attention to fglock's work, it seems the most exciting to me.  Like when you're assembling a puzzle from pieces and you realize how a smaller structure you've assembled fits into the larger whole.
17:44 [particle] i'll do just that next week in chicago :)
17:44 PerlJam fglock's work seems to be a crucial piece to the perl6 puzzle
17:45 [particle] indeed. v6 is the new ponie
17:45 [particle] it has humps, and can go without water for long periods, and it's *cute*
17:48 * Limbic_Region idly wonders if *this* xmas will be *the* xmas
17:49 Limbic_Region less than 60 days left - probably not
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17:50 PerlJam What I think will happen is that one day we will realize that the implementations that we have do all the things we want perl6 to do and at that point perl6 will have de facto arrived.
17:54 TimToady how long that takes depends on whether one of the things we want from our implementations is world domination.  :)
17:54 [particle] it hasn't arrived until the spec is done :)
17:54 Limbic_Region heh
17:55 [particle] define "world"....
17:55 Limbic_Region [particle] - the spec needn't be done
17:55 Limbic_Region it need only be comprehensive and stable enough for alpha
17:55 PerlJam As long as it matches the implementation ...  ;-)
18:20 TimToady S12 now uses ;; for explicit longest-longname notation.  Please be on the lookout for other places that need patching.
18:22 audreyt TimToady++
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18:35 TSa the multi colon forms are out now, right?
18:36 prism joined perl6
18:37 audreyt right
18:40 TSa I try to summarize your explainiations but cannot remember all cases
18:41 TSa so what exactly does a semicolon do to QS and VS?
18:42 TSa is it that it drops the respective method locally from VS, right?
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18:54 wolverian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expressions#Patterns_for_irregular_languages I hope that quote isn't out of date :)
18:54 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/y6nm4o
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19:48 eviltwin_b fwiw I recall it still being worded roughly like that
19:53 svnbot6 r14575 | audreyt++ | * P/E/P6/P5-2: Implement the dispatch as ->$method instead of an expensive eval
19:53 svnbot6 r14575 | audreyt++ |   because dynamic method names _does_ work with inheritance in Perl 5
19:56 Limbic_Region audreyt - has the hackathon started yet and if so - when does it end?
19:56 PerlJam Isn't it next week?
19:57 PerlJam I guess for audreyt it might be one long continuous hackathon   ;-)
19:57 Limbic_Region tomorrow according to her journal
19:57 Limbic_Region "I've safely landed to Brazil, ready for tomorrow's hackathon with fglock++"
19:57 Limbic_Region posted 2006-11-01
19:58 * Limbic_Region read that this morning but apparently didn't catalog it
19:58 PerlJam oh, I was thinking of the Chicago hackathon
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20:25 TimToady 18000 tests++
20:26 dmq umm, TimToady, I have finished coding some backtrackign control verbs, and i was wondering if you had any thoughts.
20:26 dmq in perl5 obviously.
20:27 dmq (?COMMIT) - if backtracked into on failure pattern fails at this start point outright
20:27 TimToady this start point?
20:27 dmq (?CUT) - if backtracked into on failure pattern fails, and doesnt try to match until a startpoint after the current position
20:29 dmq yes, consider 'aaab'=~/a+b?(?COMMIT)(??{$count++})(?!)/
20:30 dmq count would be 3.
20:30 dmq cause it could match starting at any of the 'a's.
20:31 dmq and then there is (?ERROR) - if backtracked into on failure pattern fails outright, and doesnt try to match at any subsequent start point.
20:31 TimToady that sounds more like P6's <commit>
20:33 dmq if you use  'aaabaaab'=~/a+b?(?XXX)(??{$count++})(?!)/ as the template then $count would be 6 for (?COMMIT), 2 for (?CUT) and 1 for (?ERROR)
20:34 TimToady and I'm sayin' your COMMIT doesn't show much commitment... :)
20:34 dmq heh. :-)
20:34 TimToady we also use <cut> for something a little different currently.
20:34 PerlJam dmq: what does (?!) do?
20:34 dmq its basically like a free floating possessive match operator.
20:35 TimToady it's a <fail>
20:35 dmq dmq: its always fails.
20:35 PerlJam gotcha
20:35 dmq yeah, (?FAIL) is implemented now, and in blead. my (?COMMIT) is too, but the name is subject to change.
20:36 dmq (?CUT) and (?ERROR) im just preparing the patch for
20:36 PerlJam It's too bad we can't just swap in the perl6 regex engine  :-)
20:37 dmq Ill refrain from commenting on that as Im a little biased towards the perl5 engine at this point. :-)
20:37 PerlJam obviously :)
20:38 PerlJam But for some reason I like the punctuative names better than the shouting ones.  If only you could make perl5 not shout so much ...
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20:38 dmq Anyway, i have to go. TimToady, hopefully you can ponder this and ill get back to you?
20:38 TimToady k
20:38 dmq yes, i can actually, i was thinking of making the backtracking verbs start with (*
20:39 dmq which would allow lowercase verbs without any back-compat issues.
20:39 dmq (*fail) (*commit) etc...
20:39 dmq thanks TimToady. ciao all.
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20:49 Cugel my $donotuseItem = my $useItem = 0;   --> I forget, but can I write this shorter in some way?
20:49 svnbot6 r14576 | audreyt++ | * Add the 0th sketch of MiniPerl6 Spec, by joint design of
20:49 svnbot6 r14576 | audreyt++ |   fglock++ and audreyt++, to serve as the Unified Tree Transformation
20:49 svnbot6 r14576 | audreyt++ |   And Grammar Engine Bootstrapping And Runtime Bootstrap And
20:49 svnbot6 r14576 | audreyt++ |   World Domination language.
20:50 PerlJam Cugel: depends.  You could get rid of one of the "my", but you'd have to add some more syntax  to assign another 0
20:51 PerlJam Cugel: or you could forego the assignment entirely and just rely on undef == 0 in numeric context
20:51 Cugel True, for some reason I always like to declare my variables in advance, even to 0. It's a leftover from Turbo Pascal.
20:53 PerlJam Cugel: the way you wrote it originally looks fine to me though.  I wouldn't change it.
20:54 Cugel Okay.
20:54 Cugel It just looks a bit corny, but then, so do most of my Perl lines ;-)
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21:07 svnbot6 r14577 | audreyt++ | * Some more plans on miniperl6-bootstrap.
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21:59 cmarcelo @tell audreyt audrey and flavio: i will be a litte bit late tomorrow, so will be arriving ~ 9h00/9h30. (bad rain here today => i'm leaving campinas tomorrow early morning ["bem cedinho"])
21:59 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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22:14 clkao seen audrety
22:14 jabbot clkao: I havn't seen audrety, clkao
22:14 clkao seen audreyt
22:14 jabbot clkao: audreyt was seen 3 hours 37 minutes 14 seconds ago
22:15 Debolaz (crossposting) Perl 6 is now officially vaporware, according to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6
22:16 mugwump_ is now known as mugwump
22:17 PerlJam Debolaz: not any more.
22:18 jrockway wikipedia--
22:18 jrockway pugs ... exists
22:18 mugwump also, Larry has announced a release date
22:18 Debolaz jrockway: Notice that it wasn't any particular implementation of perl 6 that was vaporware, it was the language itself. The specifications. They are the vaporware in this particular case. :)
22:19 jrockway more like flux-ware
22:19 jrockway rather than deciding on a set of specs that are bad, the contributers want perl 6 to be good
22:19 jrockway other languages aren't used to the concept, because "next version" to them means some bugfixes
22:20 jrockway php6 = unicode, perl6 = able to perform parallel operations with >>. syntax and has software transactional memory
22:20 jrockway a bit different
22:21 jrockway although those two examples appear to work Right Now (tm) ;)
22:21 Debolaz mugwump: Url? I can correct the article if I have a reference.
22:21 jrockway christmas?
22:22 * Debolaz needs reference.
22:22 jrockway i would say, "send larry over to edit the wikipedia", but the creator of Eiffel did that and got into an editwar
22:23 jrockway some pre-teen "admin" told the creator of the language that he was wrong on a number of points and was no longer welcome to spread lies on wikipedia
22:23 jrockway pretty sad, wikipedia is mostly good
22:23 mugwump Debolaz: ok, I've put all the reference I can realisitically give on the page; he announced it at YAPC::Eu
22:23 mugwump isn't that right, TimToady ?  :)
22:23 PerlJam jrockway: that's a slightly skewed characterisation of what happened.
22:24 jrockway it seemed like the admins were being stupid, though
22:24 PerlJam jrockway: yes, I'd agree with that.
22:26 PerlJam Bertrand Meyer just wanted the fonts and formatting of code examples to be consistent with "the culture of Eiffel".  Only there was some disagreement over said culture.
22:26 jrockway here's an excerpt from the current Talk page: "Then he tried to invalidate the GFDL, further showing that he has no respect for anything and he only wants his way."
22:26 jrockway ah
22:26 jrockway regardless, published sources are harder to dispute :)
22:26 jrockway so get one of those to back up the perl6 != vapor claim :)
22:28 PerlJam I just removed the vaporware edit and we'll see what happens.
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23:57 eviltwin_b cute

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