Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-11-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 nothingmuch bah
00:00 nothingmuch nevermind
00:02 nothingmuch sleep &
00:05 chromatic joined perl6
00:06 chromatic Assuming I have an hour and want to experiment with writing a Parrot emitter for MiniPerl6, where should I look?
00:06 Limbic_Region salutations chromatic
00:06 Limbic_Region ?seen audreyt
00:06 lambdabot audreyt is in #perl6, #ghc and #haskell. I last heard audreyt speak 3h 34m 18s ago.
00:06 Limbic_Region ?seen cmarcelo
00:06 lambdabot I saw cmarcelo leaving #perl6 6h 38m 35s ago, and .
00:07 nothingmuch *moose noises*
00:07 Limbic_Region chromatic - MP6 is relatively new so I don't know much about it and the two who know it best aren't around
00:07 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - thought you were sleeping
00:07 chromatic I made a Parrot.pm with an empty emit {} in perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6/, then invoked it with perl -Ilib -Mblib lib/v6.pm --compile-only -BParrot say42, but no luck.
00:07 nothingmuch moose noises in mysleep ;-)
00:07 chromatic say42 is a file with "say 42" in it.
00:07 nothingmuch i'm just post-hygene obsessing
00:08 nothingmuch closing windows etc takes long
00:08 nothingmuch plus that last commit is always a bit longer than expected ;-)
00:08 mako132_ joined perl6
00:09 Limbic_Region though I might even be confusing MP6 with OM
00:09 nothingmuch last link: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html
00:09 lambdabot Title: Cheney on the M.T.A., http://tinyurl.com/purol
00:10 nothingmuch very interesting for those who appreciate the low level side of high level languages
00:12 Limbic_Region chromatic I assume you have read the README in pugs/v6 ?
00:12 [particle] c: look in v6/v6-MiniPerl6/Emitter/
00:13 chromatic Yes.
00:13 * Limbic_Region goes back to sleep then
00:13 chromatic lib/MiniPerl6/Emitter, you mean?
00:14 [particle] er, yes
00:15 chromatic In theory, then, I could copy this and override all of the emit* methods to emit Parrot code then?
00:15 [particle] yes
00:15 chromatic How would I test it?
00:16 [particle] i'm not quite sure
00:17 chromatic How can I tell it to use a different emitter?
00:17 [particle] i'd guess you'd want to spit out the pir at first, and sanity check it
00:18 chromatic Does the code even work?
00:19 [particle] yes, it works with perl5 back end
00:20 chromatic Okay.  How do I make this code work with the P5 backend?
00:20 [particle] oh, i think maybe the emitter refactor isn't quite done yet
00:20 [particle] fglock got a new system, or has some system restore hassles preventing that commit
00:21 [particle] if you have v6 installed, just switch to v6-MiniPerl6 and run 'prove t'
00:22 chromatic t/01-sanity....FAILED before any test output arrived
00:22 chromatic t/02-emit......FAILED before any test output arrived
00:22 chromatic t/03-token.....FAILED before any test output arrived
00:22 chromatic t/04-regex.....FAILED before any test output arrived
00:22 chromatic FAILED--4 test scripts could be run, alas--no output ever seen
00:22 TimToady I don't think those tests are doing TAP format yet.
00:22 [particle] oh. well then....
00:23 chromatic $ perl -Ilib t/01-sanity.t
00:23 chromatic Error in perl 6 parser: invalid rule syntax at (eval 79) line 349.
00:24 chromatic $ rm t/*tc && perl -Ilib t/01-sanity.t
00:24 chromatic Error in perl 6 parser: invalid rule syntax at (eval 79) line 349.
00:25 chromatic $ rm t/*tc && perl -Ilib -I../../perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6/blib/lib t/01-sanity.t
00:25 chromatic Error in perl 6 parser: invalid rule syntax at (eval 79) line 349.
00:26 [particle] ../../misc/pX/Common/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6/lib?
00:26 [particle] that's the bleeding-edge stuff
00:27 chromatic v6 from CPAN wouldn't install either.
00:27 chromatic I figured the new stuff might have a chance of working.
00:27 chromatic ~/dev/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 $ make test
00:27 chromatic 1 test and 2 subtests skipped.
00:27 chromatic Failed 2/35 test scripts. 314/721 subtests failed.
00:29 chromatic Right then.  Yet another half-assed, overpromised Pugs code-tease.
00:29 TimToady be nice
00:30 chromatic Larry, every time I try to do something on Pugs, it fails to work.
00:31 [particle] heh, and i thought it was just me
00:31 chromatic Every six months, someone says "Oh, try it now!  It's so much better, and we could use your help!" and it fails to work.
00:31 [particle] i keep thinking there's a magic document on using this stuff, and i'm not reading it. but, it doesn't exist, and i can't use it.
00:32 chromatic After three or four or five times, I start to believe that it just doesn't work.
00:33 Limbic_Region chromatic - you aren't interested in the Haskell backend then?  Just parrot and perhaps perl 5?
00:33 chromatic The code is impenetrable.
00:33 chromatic I gave up on the Haskell backend in February.
00:33 cj hey there chromatic
00:33 chromatic The Perl 5 backend has no documentation that I can find (or comprehend) and fails to pass the tests in tree or from the CPAN.
00:34 chromatic I decided to spend an hour experimenting today to see if I could make any progress with the Parrot backend.
00:34 chromatic Hi cj.
00:34 chromatic Ahh, that CJ.
00:34 cj ha!
00:35 Limbic_Region well, I don't hack internals - I just write perl 6 code.  And when I tell pugs to run it - it does.  A lot of it too, not just variable assignment.
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00:35 zgh yeah I've had good luck with actual perl6 code in pugs
00:36 zgh HTTP::Server::Simple and CGI work together now ^_^
00:36 zgh yay web hacking in perl6!
00:36 TimToady I'm doing production Perl 6 code at work...
00:36 chromatic Yes, I'm sure the implemented stuff is great.
00:36 Limbic_Region there is a LOT of implemented stuff
00:37 Limbic_Region most of t/ passes with the haskell backend
00:37 chromatic Right, it's slightly more capable than it was when I stopped working on it in August 2005.
00:38 chromatic When was the last time you ran make test?
00:38 chromatic Did it run in under two hours for you?
00:38 TimToady 40 minutes
00:38 Limbic_Region I run make test twice a day
00:38 chromatic That's positive.
00:38 Limbic_Region s/twice a day/at least twice a day/
00:39 Limbic_Region on this box - < 40 minutes
00:39 Limbic_Region on my slow machine at work circa 65 minutes
00:39 chromatic Is GHC 6.6 available for your platform?
00:39 Limbic_Region in neither place have I taken advantage of multi-processors
00:39 Limbic_Region winbugs - yep
00:40 Limbic_Region nor have I taking advantage of the ghc 6.6 performance flags
00:40 TimToady and that's with a lot more tests than it had a year ago.
00:43 chromatic I am leaving Flavio a note.  I will only try once more.
00:43 bsb joined perl6
00:43 Limbic_Region ?seen fglock
00:43 lambdabot I saw fglock leaving #perl6 4h 45m 56s ago, and .
00:46 chromatic left perl6
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01:11 follil ?seen audreyt
01:11 lambdabot audreyt is in #perl6, #ghc and #haskell. I last heard audreyt speak 4h 39m 23s ago.
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03:19 * audreyt goes back from Rio.pm social meeting
03:20 audreyt oy. I missed chromatic. another chance of getting him to join development missed
03:20 audreyt c'est la vie.
03:25 pasteling "Coleoid" at 70.239.92.24 pasted "Changes to Makefile.PL to get it closer to working with Win32 $ENV{SVN_ASP_DOT_NET_HACK}" (16 lines, 664B) at http://sial.org/pbot/21001
03:26 Coleoid audreyt: This is the half-solution I mentioned earlier...
03:27 Coleoid With that change, the generated Makefile needs only one more manual deletion to succeed (with groaning)...
03:27 Coleoid Though more fixes are worthwhile.
03:28 GeJ adreyt: hi
03:28 Coleoid I don't know where the offending portion is being generated.
03:29 GeJ audreyt: having chromatic join the pugs ship would be great as he is undoubtedly a most valuable asset for perl 6
03:31 GeJ Reading the comments though makes me feel sad, though. I think I can understand his frustration, but his reaction is not helping.
03:31 Coleoid GeJ, I agree.  I also empathize with his experience:  I've tried to get up and working in Pugs several times.
03:32 GeJ Well, this is just the humble opinion of someone who has never provided anything to either pugs or parrot and as such can be discarded.
03:32 stevan GeJ: this is also just how chromatic
03:33 stevan is
03:33 Coleoid This is the best I've done yet!  With manual makefile hammering, I get a working build.
03:34 audreyt ooh!
03:34 audreyt "with" manual hammering?
03:34 audreyt Coleoid: also, please commit the Makefile.PL patch
03:35 Coleoid Yeah, after Makefile.PL is run, I've got to delete one more chunk.
03:35 Coleoid (from the generated Makefile)
03:36 GeJ stevan: I never had the opportunity to meet him (and probably never will). All I know from him is what one can read on various blogs, MLs, and such. All I can say is that I have a high respect for him and his works. But the animosity shown in the comments he made makes me feel mostly uncomfortable.
03:37 Coleoid So the job isn't done yet, but I've never been inside MakeMaker.
03:37 Coleoid (or any of the related techs.)
03:37 audreyt Coleoid: which chunk?
03:37 Coleoid Er...
03:39 pasteling "Coleoid" at 70.239.92.24 pasted "Manual hack to generated Makefile to get build success when working with Win32 $ENV{SVN_ASP_DOT_NET_HACK}" (10 lines, 418B) at http://sial.org/pbot/21002
03:40 Coleoid That chunk.
03:40 audreyt so it's trying to install _svn as a script
03:41 audreyt Coleoid: you got a commit bit, btw?
03:41 stevan GeJ: I wouldn't take the comments too heart too much, he means what he says, but I never found him to be mean spirited, just very spirited :)
03:41 Coleoid Mm-hm.  There are other places this comes up in the Makefile, but that's the only fatal one.
03:41 audreyt it's now fixed.
03:41 GeJ stevan: good to know :)
03:41 Coleoid I don't have a commit bit.
03:41 svnbot6 r14684 | audreyt++ | * Makefile.PL: Coleoid observed that script/_svn/ was erroneously
03:41 svnbot6 r14684 | audreyt++ |   being included in install_script; this fixed that.
03:42 audreyt oh. we can fix that. wha'ts your email address?
03:42 Coleoid [email@hidden.address]
03:42 clkao audreyt: now all you need is a restian api so you can give out commitbits without leaving your terminal..
03:42 clkao luckily this web framework seemed to provide one..
03:43 audreyt Coleoid: welcome aboard; please add yourself to AUTHORS :)
03:44 Coleoid :D  Thanks!
03:49 audreyt Coleoid: so please commit the Makefile.PL
03:49 audreyt and then it should build without fatal errors :)
03:50 Coleoid Merged in my changes, and I'm re-making to be sure...
03:57 audreyt Coleoid: sorry I can't stay around anymore
03:58 audreyt I'll see you ~9hr from now
03:58 audreyt good night and thanks for chasing this down :)
03:59 svnbot6 r14685 | Coleoid++ | Fixes to navigate around _svn dirs when svn is configured to use those instead of the usual .svn folders.
04:00 Coleoid Just enough help--thanks!
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04:15 svnbot6 r14686 | Coleoid++ | Slight delay as I found an editor that would not mangle the Unicode in AUTHORS
04:22 mbradley|phone is now known as mbradley
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04:39 GeJ win 2
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06:19 johnSt audreyt: please do not be rude to chromatic -- why won't you work on what he suggests you should be working on? let's cooperate to make perl 6 the greatest language!
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06:48 johnSt can anyone explain why the concerns of chromatic (perl.com editor) have not been addressed? he is perfectly positioned to survey the perl landscape, yet it seems like no one is following his command. we harm only ourselves by ignoring the natural leaders in our community imho.
06:49 scook0 joined perl6
06:57 zptao natural leaders <--- lol
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07:02 wolverian heh.
07:09 dduncan yeah really
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07:45 chromatic joined perl6
07:45 chromatic I'm not trying to be a natural leader or anythiing.
07:45 chromatic I have some experience, yeah.
07:45 chromatic I'm just some guy though, and I can be a real jerk sometimes.
07:46 chromatic If I'm wrong, that's fine.  I'm wrong sometimes.
07:47 chromatic If I'm not helpful, then somebody with some gusto just grab me in private and set me straight.  Please.
07:47 chromatic But yeah, I get frustrated sometimes and I really hate when there's something wrong and a lot of people think it and none of them want to say it.  That makes me want to say it.
07:47 chromatic Again, though, I'm wrong sometimes.
07:47 chromatic I'm a jerk sometimes.  Sometimes I can even tell before I say something.
07:48 chromatic If I'm right, it's not because I edit Perl.com or write books sometimes or have written some software that some people use.
07:49 chromatic I'd like to think that anyone could say something that's true and have people consider it seriously.
07:49 chromatic Likewise, if I'm wrong, I hope that people are willing to call me on it.
07:53 chromatic I've sent fglock and audreyt an email outlining what I think needs to be in place before I can seriously look at making a PIR emitter for MiniPerl6.
07:53 dduncan personally, I don't know what the fuss is about ... all I saw you say is you were disappointed in the progress of Perl 6 and/or how easy it is to use the implementations
07:53 dduncan nothing to worry about I think
07:53 dduncan that is, I don't think there are any problems
07:53 chromatic I saw the backlog where someone said something like "He's the editor of Perl.com, so you guys should take him more seriously!"
07:54 dduncan I saw that too, and don't know what he's referring to
07:54 dduncan I looked further backlog, and on several web sites,
07:54 dduncan I saw no disrespect between you and audrey
07:54 chromatic Thanks for the perspective.
07:55 dduncan and fyi, I know that other people I encounter are also somewhat pessimistic about the progress of Perl 6, though I am personally optimistic about it
07:55 dduncan I think its moving along well, even if lots of others don't see that
07:56 dduncan but I also haven't really tried to use it yet ...
07:56 dduncan or I have, and decided it will probably be ready later
07:56 dduncan and am continuing in Perl 5 for the moment
07:56 dduncan now that the Metamodel has just been attached to the Haskell, or is in progress, thats a big step forward
07:57 chromatic Yeah, Larry pointed that out to me too.
07:57 dduncan and was one of the main things I was waiting for
07:57 dduncan fyi, I'm trying to implement an integrated RDBMS in Perl 6, and the Perl 6 introspection abilities were a prerequisite
07:58 chromatic I wanted to use Test::Class in Perl 6, but OO support was a prerequisite.
07:58 dduncan at the moment, I'm making a Perl 5 prototype first, then doing it in Perl 6 after
07:58 dduncan we've had fake OO of sorts for awhile, but the new metamodel should make it more real
07:59 chromatic FWIW, having a decent OO language for TGE would help Parrot and its hosted languages move much faster too.
07:59 dduncan now, afaik, we're still waiting for GHC 6.6 to be ported to some platforms, then 6.4 cruft can be removed from Pugs
08:00 dduncan I decided awhile back that, while Parrot is to be the long term best platform for Perl 6, I would be using the Perl 5 backend in production first
08:00 chromatic There's where we start to disagree.
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08:01 dduncan well, if Parrot + Perl 6 work in production in the next few months, let me know
08:01 dduncan but I guess TGE is part of making that so
08:02 chromatic That's honestly my big block right now, technically.
08:02 chromatic As well as that of Perl 6 on Parrot.
08:03 dduncan fyi, my thought of Perl 5 working first was based on the idea of Perl 5 being stable while Parrot is pre-alpha ... while I'm not too close to the Parrot side of things, I was under the impression that other Perl 6 backends were moving along a lot faster than it was
08:03 chromatic As VMs, yes, that's likely true (unless you count YARV).
08:03 dduncan I saw the Parrot people having a more difficult task, hence it taking longer
08:04 chromatic As in supporting the features that Perl 6 needs?  I don't have that impression.
08:05 chromatic I get this sense of a looming Turing Tar-Pit for some of them, especially Perl 5.
08:06 dduncan fyi, another part of the backlog shows Audrey is disappointed in having missed you in this channel, like she wants to get you involved some more ... but I guess your statement of prerequisites is your lead-in to that
08:07 chromatic Yeah.  I would like to make the best possible use of my time.
08:08 dduncan now, her last post was that she'll be back online in about 9 hours ... that was made about 4 hours ago
08:08 dduncan what TZ are you in?
08:08 chromatic -0700 I believe
08:08 dduncan and I'm -0800 ... you probably won't be up then
08:09 chromatic Not if I can help it!
08:10 chromatic nopaste?
08:12 dduncan fyi, if it explains anything, most of the short term value I want to get out of Perl 6 is the syntax, the fact everything is an object, stronger types, sets, etc ... essentially, a cleaner Perl 5 with less verbose syntax for common operations ... a lot of the big ticket features I still have to learn to find a situation where I would use them
08:12 dduncan oh yes, and the built-in powerful grammar
08:13 chromatic Once you go multi, everything else seems so unflavored.
08:13 pasteling "chromatic" at 63.105.17.30 pasted "Make and Test Times on Fresh Checkout (#14685)" (34 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/21006
08:13 dduncan there it is
08:13 dduncan but normally its instantaneous
08:16 chromatic The build or the test?
08:17 dduncan I was referring to your nopaste question
08:17 dduncan a submitted nopaste tends to appear instantaneously in the channel
08:17 chromatic Oh.  No, I was trying to get a bot to tell me the URL.
08:17 dduncan I just bookmarked the nopaste in my browser long ago
08:18 dduncan ?nopaste
08:18 lambdabot http://paste.lisp.org/new/haskell
08:18 dduncan I thought, ?eval had the questionmark in front, so maybe that too
08:18 chromatic Good thinking.
08:19 dduncan but that url doesn't work
08:19 dduncan I bookmarked http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
08:19 lambdabot Title: sial.org Pastebot - pasteling
08:20 chromatic I just tickled pasteling until it gave up user info.
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08:21 dduncan now, since Perl 5 is more stable than Perl 6, I have been experimenting in making the RDBMS there first ... while Perl 5 is more verbose, it is still good for demonstating what semantics I actually want, so it is easier to get appropriate help in making that work in Perl 6
08:22 dduncan my code in progress is at http://darrenduncan.net/QDRDBMS/
08:22 lambdabot Title: Index of /QDRDBMS
08:22 Cugel Just a quick Perl5 question for my personal education. I'm using "  use lib ".";    "  to force Perl to look in my current dir for my .pm file (all other methods seem to fail for some reason). Is this a hack or is it Good Coding?
08:22 dduncan you shouldn't need to
08:22 chromatic Depends on why your .pm file is in your current directory.
08:23 dduncan Perl 5 always looks in the current directory, AFAIK
08:23 chromatic Not with taint mode, I believe.
08:23 dduncan but keep in mind that, if you are invoking your script from a soft reference, the CWD may not be where your script is
08:23 dduncan as is often the case with web apps
08:24 Cugel Yeah for some reason even updating @INC doesn't seem to work.
08:24 dduncan for security and other reasons, I always locate my web code in some other dir, and just put a softlink to that in the httpdocs
08:24 Cugel I see.
08:24 dduncan but that also means the script needs to have an explicit use lib in it so Perl finds the other parts
08:25 Cugel I'm finally getting the hang of variable scoping and using strict and warnings etc. I'm still the BASIC guy I was 20 years ago apparently.
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08:25 dduncan so try adding a "use lib '/path/to/dir/holding/your/modles';" to your main script and see if that helps
08:25 dduncan my paths are usually absolute in that situation
08:25 Cugel good idea.
08:26 dduncan I habitually put this at the top of all my Perl 5 code: use 5.008001; use utf8; use strict; use warnings FATAL => 'all';
08:27 dduncan making warnings FATAL is particularly useful for web scripts
08:27 Cugel So each warning is not just a warning but a real error then?
08:27 dduncan since normal warnings won't turn into exceptions that I can catch and print to the browser for debugging
08:28 dduncan a normal warning isn't an exception; I make them into such
08:28 Cugel I'm copying that, looks good.
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08:28 dduncan my main script is a big eval block which contains everything else ... that eval block would only catch an exception if something in my code dies
08:28 jrockway why the use utf8?  do you use a lot of unicode literals in your scripts?
08:29 dduncan that is, the main script contains almost nothing but the eval block ... all my real code is in modules
08:29 dduncan I use utf8 by default, so just in case I have non-ascii chars, they are unicode and not some other encoding
08:29 dduncan I make my whole pipeline unicode
08:30 Cugel What does the use 5.008001  do really?
08:30 dduncan it specifies minimum perl version to run under
08:30 dduncan you can set it different if you want, but the above is the first useable 5.8, and I don't want older than 5.8
08:30 Cugel I'm not using OOP yet, so my minimum version might as well be Perl 5.0 :-)  but still.
08:30 dduncan if you have specific needs, you can set it differently
08:31 dduncan you could leave the line out entirely, as well
08:31 jrockway use utf8 means "my source file is encoded in utf8"
08:31 dduncan but fyi, the utf8 pragma only works with 5.8
08:31 chromatic You need at least 5.6 if you want the warnings pragma too.
08:31 dduncan as well as some other things I want to use
08:31 jrockway if you want data read from files to have the utf8 flag on, you need to use other means
08:31 dduncan yes, the pragma just says the Perl code is utf8, not file contents etc
08:32 dduncan but 5.8 also has PerlIO and stuff, so its easy to tell it what encoding to treat files as
08:32 dduncan as well as standard out and stuff
08:32 Cugel Ah I didn't know 'use warnings' was relatively new.
08:32 jrockway yeah, i don't see any reason to support perls that are 5+ years old
08:33 jrockway if your OS doesn't ship with perl 5.8.x, it's time to get a real OS
08:33 dduncan or install it yourself
08:33 jrockway yeah; wanted to avoid the "perl is too hard to compile" discussion :)
08:33 dduncan I run Mac OS X, and 10.3+ include 5.8
08:34 dduncan but I still compile it myself
08:34 jrockway IIRC apple picks weird options from time to time
08:34 dduncan how so?
08:35 dduncan I know their bundled perl is multithreaded, while the default Perl config is not
08:35 jrockway i think in the 10.3 days they didn't include ithreads, the included 5.0005 threads, or something
08:35 dduncan I don't know
08:35 dduncan I've never used any multithread features
08:35 jrockway after 10.4 the included perl was fine
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08:35 dduncan I'm on 10.4.8 now
08:36 jrockway hmm, my last memory of OS X was 10.4.5, which hosed all my production servers
08:36 jrockway i don't remember why, though...
08:37 jrockway apple's take on apache was pretty weird
08:37 jrockway ld wanted to build all libraries as "universal binaries", but apache didn't appreciate that
08:37 jrockway but apple changed the source of ld to to ignore -arch flags, or something
08:37 jrockway so i had to build my own universal apache
08:37 jrockway that was a nightmare
08:38 pasteling "duncand" at 24.69.53.198 pasted "example (perl 5) web script wrapper" (26 lines, 724B) at http://sial.org/pbot/21008
08:39 dduncan Cugel, that may help you
08:39 dduncan its a generified version of my "main program" for a web app
08:40 jrockway at that point, why not use CGI::Application or Catalyst?
08:40 dduncan it just invokes the real main, and traps and reports any problem with either compiling or executing such that the real main doesn't handle itself
08:40 jrockway the catalyst error screen is prettier ;)
08:40 Cugel Looks good -- very educational too.
08:41 dduncan at the moment, I just wanted something with as few dependencies as possible ... once I actually have experience using those frameworks and trust them, I'll switch over, though
08:41 jrockway btw, what happens if $err contains HTML?
08:41 jrockway i don't see the content-type set to text anywhere
08:42 Cugel I love the 1; at the end -- is something like that still in Perl 6?
08:42 jrockway there's a good reason for that
08:43 dduncan an omission ... but it matters little since that trap should never show up but when I'm actually editing the site and made a typo
08:43 jrockway you could do "return _init" or something, and if _init fails the module won't load
08:43 dduncan actually, the trap I showed you is mainly to catch COMPILE errors of the program
08:43 jrockway ah, i see
08:43 jrockway if haven't done plain (perl) CGI for a while
08:43 dduncan the 1; at the end isn't needed for Perl 6
08:44 dduncan it isn't always needed in Perl 5 either, but it doesn't hurt to have it, to be safe
08:45 dduncan fyi, I consider CGI cludgey, but only used it for a quick solution ... my program has its own "IOUtils" module which completely wraps it anyway, so the program doesn't suffer its API
08:46 dduncan fyi, part of the reason for not having used Catalyst et al, besides inexperience, is because the script in question started out as a PHP one that I inherited, then translated
08:47 dduncan the $job said first to just get it working like the old one did sortof, then we can later do a better rewrite
08:48 jrockway yeah, understandable
08:48 jrockway i am in the reverse situation now -- moving old perl to "new" PHP
08:48 jrockway Now With Less Maintainability (tm)
08:48 jrockway don't get me started on PHP, though
08:48 dduncan I agree ... PHP is teh suck
08:48 jrockway it really impresses me how bad of a job the PHP devs did
08:48 dduncan that said, I'd sooner use it than some MS tool
08:49 jrockway they just don't understand programming, but they somehow managed to write their own programming language
08:49 jrockway i'm not sure what to think about that
08:49 jrockway i also love their helpful default-bison parser... "parse error: syntax error: expecting T_FOOBAR but got T_STRING"
08:49 jrockway that's helpful.
08:50 jrockway but yeah, not going to go off on a PHP rant ;)
08:50 jrockway must... resist...
08:57 pasteling "folli" at 200.161.234.112 pasted "teste" (1 line, 5B) at http://sial.org/pbot/21010
08:57 dduncan jrockway, I should also point out, in my code example, that $err is unlikely to ever contain HTML ... usually it is either an error generated by Perl (terminal output intended), or it is a SQL statement
08:58 dduncan so the HTML mode will word wrap so it displays on the screen at once
08:58 jrockway for production it's a good idea to entity-encode everything your print to the browser, just to be safe
08:58 jrockway unless it's literal HTML, of course
08:58 jrockway then you just have to be careful
08:59 dduncan I do entity-encode all normal output, as well as any errors reported by the main program itself, which has another eval block over everything ... the one I showed you is mainly just for when that main doesn't compile
09:00 dduncan fyi, when I translated from PHP, I replaced all ?>...<?php with print q{...};
09:00 dduncan which is what that literally means in PHP
09:02 dduncan my text editor supports regexps, so it was fairly painless
09:02 dduncan eg, a lot of the conversion was search'n'replace
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12:06 dmq TimToady are you about?
12:07 Steve_p dmq, it'd be pretty early for California time
12:08 kane-xs_ 4 am ;)
12:09 dmq aha
12:09 dmq silly me. :-)
12:10 dmq these crazy californians sleeping in so late. geeze. :-)
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12:28 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
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12:41 audreyt @tell johnSt I try, sometimes very hard, to not be rude to anyone, chromatic included. You may take comfort in knowing that the concerns he previous raised, namely "make test" taking 5hr on his machine, was the main reason of the refos on performance in 6.2.x...
12:41 lambdabot Consider it noted.
12:41 svnbot6 r14687 | fglock++ | MP6 - fixed 'method', add tests
12:42 fglock audreyt: ping
12:42 lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:45 audreyt fglock: pong
12:47 fglock audreyt: I'll start working on the operations parser
12:47 fglock after that, it should be able to compile Token->P5
12:48 fglock which means MP6->P5 :)
12:48 audreyt ok. sorry I was disabled thoroughly yesterday :)
12:48 fglock are you enjoying Rio?
12:49 audreyt yes
12:49 audreyt sugarloaf and the copacablanca beach is nice indeed
12:50 audreyt did quite some design work on paper on MO integration during Rio.pm meeting
12:52 audreyt is your new laptop relatively stable now after reinstall?
12:52 fglock yes, it is fine now - which font do you use for terminal?
12:53 dmq wingdings
12:53 fglock :)
12:53 dmq keeps the management on their toes
12:55 audreyt fglock: Consolas
12:55 audreyt dmq: but it's not monospace...
12:55 fglock audreyt: try out t/04-regex.t - although it still breaks in the end of compilation
12:56 dmq sorry i meant wingding-mono
12:56 Limbic_Region joined perl6
12:57 dmq of course wingding-mono has the disadvantage of only having one char in it.
12:57 dmq :-)
12:58 audreyt rofl :)
12:58 audreyt and it's a space
12:58 audreyt hence the name "monospace"!
12:58 audreyt it's a very bleachy clean font, it appears
12:58 audreyt fglock: k, trying
12:59 dmq Indeed
12:59 audreyt fglock: the most complex part of emitter is probably the Bind node
12:59 audreyt fglock: since it needs to handle array and object unpacking
12:59 audreyt but even that is ~20 lines I think
13:00 audreyt just need a different emit metod for the relevant notes in lvalue position
13:00 audreyt fglock: Undefined subroutine &Pugs::Runtime::Perl6::Scalar::join called at lib/MiniPerl6/Emitter.pm line 379.
13:00 audreyt normal?
13:00 fglock audreyt: how about emit Bind->MP6
13:01 fglock audreyt: may need to reinstall v6
13:01 audreyt you mean simplifier?
13:01 audreyt i.e. desigar
13:01 audreyt desugar
13:01 fglock audreyt: yes
13:01 audreyt [$x,$y] := ...
13:01 audreyt into...
13:01 audreyt $tmp := ...
13:01 audreyt $x := $tmp[0]
13:01 audreyt $y := $tmp[1]
13:01 audreyt ?
13:02 audreyt sure, that is good thinking
13:02 fglock yes - this would simplify backend implementation
13:02 audreyt otoh, some backend may gen more efficient code having acces to full bind node
13:02 audreyt so how about providing a .simplify method
13:02 audreyt to Bind, and backends can choose to run it or not?
13:05 fglock I'm thinking of a generalization
13:05 fglock we have a few DSLs - regex, string interpolation
13:06 fglock these could be "optional" too
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13:06 fglock so rich backends can be more efficient
13:12 audreyt you mean regex becomes simplified similarily
13:12 audreyt so you call .simplify when you want a recompiled inline
13:12 audreyt and handle it yourself if you want
13:12 audreyt that sounds like sane
13:13 fglock yes - but we need to find out how to implement this without inheritance
13:13 fglock also, how to handle multiple backends
13:13 audreyt each backend is one class of Emitter
13:14 audreyt you don't need inheritance; when you're being blessed there's an attribute of the generalized emitter-helper object
13:14 audreyt i.e. use hasa to emulate isa
13:14 audreyt unfortunately my blood sugar level is very low at this point
13:15 audreyt let me hunt for some glucose and then come back
13:15 audreyt in say 1hr?
13:15 fglock np - better finish the base grammar first, also
13:15 fglock ok - I'll have lunch in 30min, so after lunch
13:15 audreyt ok
13:16 fglock did you get t/04-regex working?
13:17 audreyt  }, 'Var' )
13:17 audreyt ]
13:17 audreyt *** error in Block
13:17 audreyt is the output. it parses "my" as function call
13:17 audreyt not as decl
13:17 audreyt but otherwise seems to be fine
13:17 fglock yes, but it goes very far already :)
13:18 audreyt it does! esp. considering the timeframe :)
13:19 fglock unfortunately we didn't finish in 1 week - let's try in 10 days
13:20 iblechbot joined perl6
13:20 fglock bbiab
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13:32 * smash_ good afternoon
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14:10 audreyt fglock: sorry - the restaurant wasn't open until now
14:10 audreyt fglock: so I'll be back later than that -- also my brain chemistry is not in a properly hacking confirmation at this moment -- I'll try to do something to make myself feeling better about working on Pugs
14:11 audreyt s/confirmation/configuration/
14:11 audreyt so, bbiab
14:17 Gothmog_ audreyt: On pugscode.org the link to the svn repository is still the old one...
14:20 fglock audreyt: food++
14:31 stevan fglock: is there any docs about what MP6 looks like?
14:31 stevan and would it make sense to try and write the metamodel in it (similar to what I did in PIL a while ago)
14:34 fglock stevan: that would be great
14:34 fglock stevan: we probably still need native metamodels
14:34 fglock but having an easily deployed one is nice
14:34 stevan fglock: by native metamodels, you mean like MOH and Moose?
14:35 stevan native on the backend
14:35 fglock see /docs/notes/miniperl6-bootstrap.pod
14:35 fglock yes, native in the backend - because it can be faster
14:36 stevan ah
14:36 stevan ok
14:36 fglock the plan for MP6 version 2 is to include a metamodel in the base language
14:37 stevan what does v1 do?
14:37 fglock if we have a metamodel written in MP6, we can use MP6 to write MP6-2
14:38 stevan circularity++ :)
14:38 fglock v1 does closure, tree transformations
14:39 fglock it also has a parser
14:39 beu is now known as beuster
14:41 fglock miniperl6-bootstrap.pod is an overview; http://pugs.blogs.com/photos/visiolization/mp6bootstrap.html is about the inner workings
14:41 lambdabot Title: Visiolization: Mp6bootstrap, http://tinyurl.com/yxb6ux
14:41 fglock v6/v6-MiniPerl6/AST.pod and BOOTSTRAPPING are more detailed internals
14:42 stevan nice
14:42 fglock It already works; I'm currently adding additional nodes in order to complete bootstrapping
14:43 kolibrie stevan: did you notice there might be an early May hackathon in Boston? (discussed yesterday)
14:43 stevan kolibrie: no, I didnt
14:44 stevan fglock: where is v6/
14:44 kolibrie clkao will be in the area, so audreyt thought of coming too, and cj was sort of arranging things
14:44 stevan oh I see it
14:45 stevan kolibrie: cool, I will swing on up then
14:45 fglock it's in pugs/v6/v6-MiniPerl6 - you need a fresh install ov perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule and -Perl6
14:45 kolibrie I talked with my wife about it, so I may be able to come
14:45 fglock of
14:46 stevan kolibrie: cool
14:46 fglock it needs Pugs::Compiler::Perl6 because the bootstrap is not finished
14:47 fglock it may compile with pugs too - I haven't tried
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14:52 fglock stevan: there is a lot of sample code already written - MP6 is implemented in MP6
14:58 stevan fglock: it looks like you already have objects
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15:00 fglock stevan: yes, but it's a very simple system - it does not support inheritance
15:01 fglock it's mostly just sugar
15:01 stevan fglock: structs basically?
15:02 fglock it's blessed structs
15:02 stevan thats perfect,.. that was all PIL has really
15:02 fglock some evil soul may evan want to emit it to C...
15:02 svnbot6 r14688 | audreyt++ | * Add pugscode.org into version control.
15:03 fglock even
15:03 fglock MiniPerl6 is PIL-3
15:03 stevan fglock: cool :)
15:05 svnbot6 r14689 | fglock++ | MP6 - added infix expressions
15:08 weinig|zZz is now known as weinig|bbl
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15:12 * weinig|bbl
15:12 weinig|bbl sorry
15:16 audreyt Gothmog_: thanks, fixed; please feel free to update the pugscode.org homepage as you see fit
15:16 audreyt by simply committing to docs/feather/pugscode.org
15:17 audreyt bbiab again...
15:21 svnbot6 r14690 | fglock++ | MP6 - implemented ternary; substr() works too
15:23 fglock joined perl6
15:24 fglock the main language impl is done - now bugfixing...
15:27 fglock if I copy the .svk/ and pugs/ directories from another computer, would it work?
15:28 [particle] .svn dirs?
15:28 hexmode joined perl6
15:29 [particle] i have moved an svn working copy between dirs on the same machine and it works. dunno about svk, and haven't moved between machines.
15:30 PerlJam fglock: probably.  (I've never done it either, but my gut says it should work)
15:30 [particle] fglock: can you write up detailed steps to get MP6 running? stick them in a README or something? i'd really like to play, but i can't get it to work (same problem as chromatic, in fact)
15:31 fglock [particle]: it will be easier after bootstrap
15:31 [particle] eta?
15:31 fglock right now, you need an up-to date v6.pm
15:31 fglock 2 hours :)
15:32 [particle] -I path/to/v6.pm doesn't seem to work
15:32 [particle] ok, i guess i can wait
15:32 fglock just kidding - but I hope to finish today, with audreyt++ help
15:32 [particle] ok
15:32 [particle] i'll be on a plane in 4 hours
15:32 [particle] er, 5
15:32 fglock can you get v6.pm to run?
15:33 [particle] how?
15:33 fglock cpan v6 - then update from perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule and Pugs-Compiler-Perl6 - this would give you an up-to-date installation
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15:34 fglock which can run MiniPerl6
15:34 [particle] ok, v6 is fine from cpan
15:34 [particle] should i expect failing tests?
15:35 fglock yes
15:35 fglock many, indeed, as we've been changing the implementation in order to just get MP6 working
15:36 [particle] ok, make seems to be taking a while... done.
15:36 fglock just perl Makefile.PL, make, make install
15:37 [particle] PCR done
15:37 [particle] PCP6 done
15:37 fglock then go to v6/v6-MiniPerl6 and try perl -Ilib t/02-exp.t  - this should show you an AST and some emitted perl5 snippets - that's the compiled code
15:38 fglock no TAP tests yet
15:38 [particle] 02-emit.t
15:39 [particle] D:\usr\local\pugs\v6\v6-MiniPerl6>perl -Ilib t\02-emit.t
15:39 [particle] D:\usr\local\pugs\v6\v6-MiniPerl6>
15:39 fglock one sec, adding t/02-exp.t
15:39 [particle] at least now i'm not getting errors
15:39 [particle] oh, i may not be at HEAD
15:39 [particle] upping
15:41 pmichaud_ is now known as pmichaud
15:41 svnbot6 r14691 | fglock++ | MP6 - added t/02-exp.t
15:42 fglock t/02-emit.t works here
15:42 [particle] no output
15:42 fglock try: perl -Ilib t/02-emit.tc
15:43 [particle] D:\usr\local\pugs\v6\v6-MiniPerl6>perl -Ilib t\02-emit.tc
15:43 [particle] syntax error at lib/MiniPerl6/Grammar/Regex.pm line 4249, near "};"
15:43 [particle] syntax error at lib/MiniPerl6/Grammar/Regex.pm line 4251, near ","
15:43 [particle] Compilation failed in require at lib/MiniPerl6/Grammar.pm line 20.
15:43 [particle] BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at lib/MiniPerl6/Grammar.pm line 20.
15:43 [particle] Compilation failed in require at t\02-emit.tc line 19.
15:43 [particle] BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at t\02-emit.tc line 19.
15:43 fglock looks like a PCP6 error
15:46 fglock if you upgrade PCP6, you then need to remove the bad .pmc files in lib/ before trying again
15:47 [particle] ok, which lib?
15:47 [particle] mp6?
15:47 fglock yes
15:48 fglock sorry about the teething problems
15:49 [particle] i thought that happened automatically (recreating .pmcs)
15:49 fglock it only recreates when you touch the source file; but in this case it's a compiler error, which it can't detect
15:49 [particle] ok, same error, different line
15:50 [particle] syntax error at lib/MiniPerl6/Grammar/Regex.pm line 4413, near ";"
15:50 [particle] etc
15:50 fglock one sec - let me clean up and try
15:53 Limbic_Region joined perl6
15:54 fglock it still works for me - though now I get an error in "Class/MOP/Instance.pm during global destruction"
15:54 fglock better wait for MP6 bootstrap :(
15:55 [particle] will do, thanks for holding my hand
15:56 fglock np - PCP6 has some pretty complex module interactions stuff
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16:18 nothingmuch sup homies
16:20 [particle] moose, yo
16:22 fglock nothingmuch: hi
16:23 svnbot6 r14692 | fglock++ | MP6 - parenthesis, &&, ||
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16:30 fglock meeting &
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17:09 GabrielVieira fglock hey
17:16 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
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17:50 fglock GabrielVieira: pong
17:56 GabrielVieira :)
17:56 fglock ola
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18:05 svnbot6 r14693 | fglock++ | MP6 - fixed $obj.meth
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20:30 svnbot6 r14694 | fglock++ | MP6 - a bit improved expression parser
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21:29 cmarcelo is here a good place to report typos in Syn? (or learn that they aren't typos after all) or p6-lang is the proper place?
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21:42 cmarcelo i'll put them here in case someone wakes up: S12.pod line 608 missing a "," in arguments for constructor? S12 line 470 begins "C<has $.foo>", shouldn't it be "C<has &.foo>"?
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23:11 nothingmuch woot bork
23:17 jrockway anyone in there that's going to be at the hackathon tomorrow?
23:17 jrockway s/there/here/
23:17 jrockway :)
23:20 thepler yes
23:20 cmarcelo joined perl6
23:21 thepler looking forward to it
23:24 TreyHarris is something wrong with the password-changing server?  i just got back from my trip, saw the notification from audrey, and went to change my password with the URL i got in her mail, but can't connect
23:24 TreyHarris svn.pugscode.org doesn't seem to be responding on port 9999 at all
23:24 dduncan I could get in to the new server yesterday
23:25 dduncan looking ...
23:25 dduncan I can still connect to 9999 now
23:25 TreyHarris how odd
23:26 TreyHarris it's not a browser issue, neither safari nor firefox nor opera work
23:26 dduncan so are you saying http://svn.pugscode.org:9999/ doesn't show anything for you?
23:26 lambdabot Title: Welcome to CommitBit for PugsCode
23:26 dduncan the bot can get in
23:27 dduncan Trey, perhaps you are behind a firewall blocking access to external ports outside a preapproved list?
23:27 TreyHarris dduncan: ahhh.  yes, that's exactly right.  thanks.
23:27 TreyHarris guess i'll wait till i can connect from somewhere else
23:27 dduncan unless you can contact whom admins the firewall to give you an exception
23:28 dduncan er, give that server an exception
23:28 TreyHarris dduncan: getting a port access request approved here is usually a multi-week deal :)
23:28 TreyHarris might as well just wait till i get home
23:28 cjeris left perl6
23:30 TreyHarris ahh, works fine on links, so i just ssh'd elsewhere :)
23:33 GeJ win 2
23:33 GeJ damn thos morning fingers
23:33 GeJ morning all
23:34 Patterner Moin moin
23:36 GeJ Servus Servus
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23:42 ingy hola
23:42 * jrockway hugs Alt-2 :)
23:46 nothingmuch hola ingy-san
23:49 ingy nothingmuch!
23:49 ingy where are you?
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