Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-11-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 GeJ thank you for the clarification
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01:10 audreyt rehi
01:11 TimToady welcome home!
01:11 audreyt just went back to .tw. had a rocky trip with far-too-long transit waiting times (>20hr in total). so will bbl, perhaps quite a bit later. :)
01:11 TimToady crashing is now authorized for the audrey unit.
01:11 * audreyt watched the movie "superman returns" on the airplane but is feeling totally the opposite...
01:12 * audreyt crashes &
01:13 audreyt otoh, to think about it, superman also returned by crashing, quite loudly and violently and fierily...
01:13 audreyt &
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01:16 gnuvince audreyt: feeling totally the opposite?  So you feel like "Subwoman goes away?"  ;-)  I had a question this afternoon, with the number of people having commit access to pugs, has there ever been vandalism?
01:17 stevan gnuvince: never
01:18 TimToady what would be the point?  we have all kinds of backups in and out of svn.
01:18 stevan gnuvince: the occasional broken commit maybe, but nothing intentional
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01:18 gnuvince TimToady: I don't know what the point would be, I'm a good person, I'd never do that.
01:19 * stevan ponders changing the Pugs startup ASCII art to advertise his favorite prOn site
01:19 gnuvince But I can certainly imagine an imature person thinking s/he's 1337 because he caused problems in the repository
01:19 stevan gnuvince: Pugs really doesnt attract that kind of crowd i think
01:20 gnuvince stevan: I guess not.  Everyone here seems very friendly and open and helpful.
01:20 SamB maybe leaving silly messages in the comments somewhere
01:20 gnuvince So basically, the opposite of comp.lang.lisp ;-)
01:20 stevan and much more civilized than #perl ;)
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01:24 gnuvince stevan: heh :)
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07:17 Alias_ audreyt: ping?
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08:25 masak wait a minute, min= and max=? how do these work?
08:26 masak ?eval my @a = (1,3,4); @a.min = 7; say @a
08:26 evalbot_r14732 is now known as evalbot_r14742
08:26 evalbot_r14742 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
08:26 masak not impl yet, meguesses
08:26 masak besides, what happens if several elements are minimal?
08:27 masak is first-match or all of them assigned to?
08:27 masak what happens if no element is minimal?
08:27 masak is there a warning, a run-time error, or nothing?
08:29 Alias_ .min = ?
08:29 Alias_ How can that possibly work
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08:47 dduncan ?eval my @a = (1,3,4); my $item = @a.min; say $item;
08:47 evalbot_r14742 OUTPUT[1␤] Bool::True
08:49 dduncan afaik, the min and max operators retrive whatever item in the list would be first or last if the list was sorted
08:49 dduncan you were trying the same as this:
08:49 dduncan ?eval 1 = 7;
08:49 evalbot_r14742 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
08:50 dduncan masak, got that?
08:50 Alias_ That wouldn't make sense though
08:50 Alias_ I would have thought you got a copy/constant of the minimum value
08:50 dduncan yes, so would I
08:51 dduncan but you saw what masak attempted?
08:51 Alias_ yeah
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08:57 masak dduncan: got it perfectly
08:57 dduncan okay
08:57 masak but did you see the latest addition to the synopses?
08:57 masak it specs min= and max=
08:57 masak hence the question
08:57 dduncan yes
08:57 dduncan the spec is meant to be used like this:
08:57 masak how _is_ it used
08:57 masak if not like I did?
08:58 dduncan nope
08:58 dduncan like: %item min= @ary;
08:58 dduncan I mean ...
08:58 dduncan like: $item min= @ary;
08:58 masak uh
08:58 dduncan just a minute ...
08:59 * masak wraps his brain around the example
08:59 dduncan actually, I'm not sure it makes sense ...
08:59 masak it feels quite unperlish
08:59 dduncan its meant to be analagous to $foo += $bar
08:59 masak I thought my usage was analogous
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08:59 dduncan but I'm not sure it actually makes sense
09:00 masak "set the minimum equal to"
09:00 * masak is presently highly unamused about this new feature
09:00 dduncan since you brought this up, I suggest you reply to p6l and state your confusion with that synopsis change ... and don't mention I talked to you about it
09:00 masak ...and don't mention you talked to me about it
09:01 masak ok
09:01 * masak does that
09:01 dduncan I just said that since I don't want the list to be confused by our discussion
09:01 masak right
09:01 masak I see
09:01 masak I'll just explain my confusion from my POV
09:02 dduncan the problem is that <foo>= format is I think only normal for binary operators
09:02 dduncan but min, max is a unary operator
09:02 masak you're right
09:02 masak so the analogy is at least not obvious
09:02 dduncan maybe mention that in the email
09:02 dduncan yes
09:02 lumi Is it supposed to be like $a min= 5 # $a = the smaller of $a or 5 ?
09:03 dduncan I'm glad that he added min and max but they don't make sense outside of "min @foo" or @foo.min
09:04 masak lumi: might well be
09:04 dduncan oh, I think I understand ...
09:04 masak your guess is as good as mine
09:04 lumi That's by analogy with +=
09:04 lumi And I think that's what the spec patch seems to say?
09:04 dduncan $foo = $foo min $bar;
09:04 dduncan vs $foo min= $bar;
09:04 masak glad I haven't sent the email yet :)
09:04 masak lumi: this makes much more sense
09:05 dduncan and that would actually be useful, too
09:05 masak ?my $a = 10; $a min= 7; $a
09:05 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . bf ft id map msg pl v wn
09:05 masak ?eval my $a = 10; $a min= 7; $a
09:05 evalbot_r14742 Error: ␤Unexpected "min"␤expecting operator
09:05 dduncan and if min is turned into a reduce operator, it would do what's normal with a list
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09:05 masak dduncan: exactly
09:05 dduncan eg, $item = [min] (1,4,5)
09:05 masak well, my issues with the op just vanished
09:05 dduncan so, no email needed I guess
09:05 masak nope
09:06 masak world order restored. proceeding as planned.
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10:32 cognominal what is the standard way to do shell globs in Perl6?
10:33 Alias_ sane I hope :)
10:33 cognominal using Text::Glob is way too long in oneliners
10:34 * cognominal tries to get in the habit in using pugs for his oneliners
10:37 cognominal that's glob, just happens no te be defined in pugs
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11:28 fglock MP6 now creates usable Perl5 code - still debugging...
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11:46 nothingmuch moosenage
11:53 fglock nothingmuch: do you know how to bring svnbot6 back?
11:53 nothingmuch no, sorry =(
11:54 nothingmuch audreyt should be up in a day or two ;-)
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12:01 Alias_ Oh, she did a big timezone switch?
12:02 fglock Alias_: the tz difference is 10 or 11h
12:03 Alias_ yep
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12:09 * audreyt still responds to summonings, but her brain is still completely not-in-working-condition
12:10 audreyt *thud* &
12:13 H0LE Does anybody know when perl6 will be released?
12:15 xinming H0LE: by christmas. ;-)
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12:16 H0LE really?That will be great!
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12:18 boo__ is now known as boo_
12:18 svnbot6 r14748 | fglock++ | MP6 - added Match class
12:18 svnbot6 r14748 | fglock++ | - "hello, World" works
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12:36 svnbot6 r14749 | fglock++ | MP6 - added build-perl5.sh - compiles MP6 to Perl5
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13:15 pmurias fglock: does that mean that MP6 is self hosting?
13:17 Limbic_Region joined perl6
13:21 fglock pmurias: it will be - but I'm still debugging it
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13:22 pmurias greate
13:23 pmurias great
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13:45 svnbot6 r14750 | fglock++ | MP5 - added lib5/ - self-hosted MP6 libs compiled to Perl5 (with errors)
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13:47 fglock most errors are due to not properly escaping "\n"
13:48 fglock more after lunch &
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13:58 * smash_ good afternoon
13:58 pmurias good afternoon
14:00 pmurias smash_: anything you want to chat about? :)
14:04 pmurias or just lurking about ?
14:20 nothingmuch sup afternoon yo homies
14:22 smash_ pmurias: just lurking around for now
14:38 kolibrie hmm, all the feather people are disappearing
14:39 kolibrie and, can't seem to get an ssh connection there
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15:17 xinming kolibrie: maybe a power failure?
15:18 PerlJam joined perl6
15:19 xinming or, some one who has tried 'init 0' with root privilege, and found oops... ;-)
15:19 xinming maybe he just wish to shutdown his own machine... :-P
15:19 PerlJam Is there something wrong with feather today?  I can't reach it
15:19 xinming PerlJam: Me too.
15:20 xinming Maybe power failure, maybe the reason I told just now.
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15:27 kolibrie PerlJam: all the people chatting via feather disconnected about an hour ago
15:30 PerlJam I think the pugs repository is cursed   :-)
15:33 sweinig is now known as sweinig|away
15:37 xinming Hopes not.
15:37 xinming fglock almost make mp6 selfhosting
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16:22 ingy hola
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16:42 pmurias ingy: hi
16:44 ingy hi pmurias
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16:52 TimToady feather!
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16:53 wolverian ohh
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16:59 * wolverian pets feather
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17:04 wolverian ouch, feather got a d-line to efnet
17:09 TimToady d-line as in "dialup"?
17:14 Alias_ As in some type of ban I think
17:14 wolverian sorry, it's a server-specific ban. it was only prison.net that banned feather.
17:14 wolverian (and it's a temporary ban.)
17:15 wolverian (albeit it's 14400 minutes..)
17:16 xinming why will it ban feather over 10 day?
17:16 TimToady maybe they like python?
17:17 wolverian because of "clones", i.e. too many people connected from the same host (feather) at the same time.
17:17 gnuvince People still go on efnet?
17:26 PerlJam gnuvince: yes.
17:26 PerlJam that's a lame ban
17:35 cognominal does unicode whitespace include \n and \r?
17:38 cognominal ?eval  say  "\n" ~~ m/\s/
17:44 gnuvince ?eval my ($a, undef, $b) = 1..3; "$a $b"
17:44 gnuvince No evalbot?
17:44 wolverian ENOEVALBOT
17:44 gnuvince Hmmm
17:44 eviltwin_b not my fault this time :)
17:44 gnuvince Does anyone know if the above should be supported? run.pugscode.org reports an error
17:46 TimToady doesn't matter whether unicode considers \n to be whitespace, since \s is Perl whitespace, not Unicode whitespace :)
17:47 eviltwin_b which?  IIRC the undef syntax is a perl5-ism
17:48 TimToady assignment to undef is not supported.  I believe assignment to * is, though
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17:49 eviltwin_b yeh, that's the new one IIRC.  was just poking at synopses to trey to recall what it was
17:49 gnuvince TimToady: doesn't work either....
17:49 TimToady though I think it's unimpl
17:49 gnuvince Ah
17:49 * gnuvince checks the tests
17:49 gaal TimToady: wouldn't you need a sigil trace there? my ($x, $, $y)
17:50 gaal because otherwise there's a potential multi dispatch ambiguity
17:50 TimToady that should also work
17:50 gaal (no reason i can see not to also allow *, at the users's discretion)
17:50 gnuvince if * is whatever or infinity, I imagine my ($a, *) = 1..3; would work, but not my ($a, *, $b)
17:51 TimToady * is not infinity, despite what the error message indicates
17:51 TimToady "whateverness" is not yet properly implemented either, I think.
17:51 Alias_ Just "mostly" infinite? :)
17:51 eviltwin_b in that context I'd expect it to matcha  single item which could be anything
17:52 gnuvince Well so far, I can't find what to put between $a and $b.  Have failed: ($a, undef, $b), ($a, *, $b), ($a, $, $b)
17:52 eviltwin_b it's much closer to "whatever" than "infinity" in intent
17:52 eviltwin_b it's nmot implemented yet, so presumably you need a dummy var for now
17:52 PerlJam gnuvince: now's the time to patch pugs  :-)
17:53 gnuvince PerlJam: I'll need to skim the synopses tonight to see if the syntax is mentionned.
17:53 TimToady yeah, you could probably sneak in a lot of stuff while audreyt is in thudstate.
17:53 gnuvince heheh
17:53 PerlJam gnuvince: ($a,undef,$b) is invalid I think, but the other two should be fine.
17:54 * gnuvince would need to brush up on his haskell
17:54 PerlJam gnuvince: implement it even if it's not in a synopsis.  Maybe that'll cause someone to document it :)
17:54 TimToady people who succeed in brushing up on haskell do so by brushing up lazily.
17:55 gnuvince meh, no haskell-mode at $work :(
17:55 PerlJam TimToady: indeed!  Early on in pugs development, I implemented looping constructs in pugs while knowing very little haskell.
17:57 PerlJam (lazy learning)++
17:57 avar anyone have the correct emacs settings for editing p5/p6 code in the pugs repos without screwing up the indenting?
17:59 gnuvince avar: well I got something that seems reasonable
17:59 eviltwin_b cperl-mode.el in the pugs distribution?
17:59 * eviltwin_b thought it was more than just settings
18:00 gnuvince avar: I can PRIVMSG you
18:00 avar gnuvince: yes please:)
18:03 pasteling "gnuvince" at 206.248.136.28 pasted "My Emacs configuration for cperl-mode" (10 lines, 381B) at http://sial.org/pbot/21116
18:04 avar yay, thanks
18:06 gnuvince No problem :)
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18:27 avar <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><propfind xmlns="DAV:"><prop><checked-in xmlns="DAV:"/></prop></propfind>CHECKOUT /svn/!svn/ver/13804/trunk/t/magicals/file_line.t HTTP/1.1
18:27 avar Host: svn.pugscode.org
18:27 avar re:
18:27 avar CHECKOUT to /svn/!svn/ver/13804/trunk/t/magicals/file_line.t not supported.<P>
18:27 avar Invalid method in request CHECKOUT /svn/!svn/ver/13804/trunk/t/magicals/file_line.t HTTP/1.1
18:27 avar seems my svn is broken;/
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18:46 GeJ Good møøse people
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19:06 avar is the svn commitbot not working?
19:06 TimToady doesn't seem to be
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19:11 gnuvince die(<svnbot evalbot>) and cry();
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19:19 avar changes topic to: svn switch --relocate http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | commitbot down
19:34 avar TimToady: Do you want &?BLOCK.label to work like &?ROUTINE.name ?
19:34 avar $ pugs -e 'sub block { &?ROUTINE.name } say block'
19:34 avar &Main::block
19:35 avar "C<&?BLOCK.label> contains the label of the current block, if any."
19:35 avar -S06
19:37 avar <anon>
19:38 avar eep
19:38 avar $ pugs -e 'my $sub = -> { &?BLOCK.name }; say $sub()'
19:38 avar <anon>
19:43 avar what's a label in Perl 6?
19:43 eviltwin_b same as in perl5?  LABEL: { block }
20:03 cjeris joined perl6
20:08 * avar proposes C<do_not_want> :)
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21:23 avar do the commit messages go to some mailing list?
21:33 TimToady avar: not that I know of
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21:39 avar TimToady: How do you see p6doc(1) working when done? I was thinking of adding -f support by making it eat Functions.pod
21:39 avar The Perl 6 model might need more complexities than Perl 5
21:40 avar e.g. "Get me all Array stuff"
21:40 avar something more like ri(1) maybe?
21:40 TimToady I want: "Here's a chunk of code; tell me about it."
21:40 avar example?
21:41 TimToady $a min= $b
21:42 TimToady "this assigns $b to $a if and only if $b is less than $a--see http://foo.bar.baz"
21:43 avar Is that really p6doc(1) domain? sounds more like some deparse module
21:43 avar B::English?:)
21:43 TimToady anyway, I think we want to aim for something more like a google search, where the keywords are naturally generated from the documentation, and not just the particular keywords the writer of perldoc happened to think of.
21:44 TimToady you want to be able to search for "min="
21:44 TimToady or "[*]"
21:45 TimToady or "-S"
21:45 TimToady or "^..^"
21:46 TimToady I think we could a lot better with questions of the form "What the heck does X mean?"
21:46 TimToady without forcing people to supersearch PerlMonks
21:47 PerlJam p6doc shouldn't require switches like -f or -q
21:47 avar hrm, more metadata support in the POD syntax would make that easier
21:47 TimToady p6explain '[min=]'
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21:48 TimToady even if an explainer can't decipher the whole thing, it can break it into bits and link to various bits of documentation
21:49 TimToady and if it can recognize the whole thing, it should proceed to explain it right then and there
21:49 [particle] indexing would be a start
21:51 PerlJam p6explain will be uebersmart :)
21:53 TimToady needs a shorter name though
21:54 TimToady p6ex maybe
21:54 TimToady "Everything you always wanted to know about 6ex but were afraied to ask..."
21:54 TimToady *afraid
21:54 avar hihi
21:55 TimToady sx
21:55 TimToady six
21:56 TimToady sax and sox are taken...
21:56 PerlJam splain
21:56 PerlJam 6plain
21:56 PerlJam p6e
21:56 [particle] 6fancy
21:56 TimToady kinda like 6plain
21:56 [particle] me too
21:57 [particle] lucy, lemme 6plain!
21:57 PerlJam it's your bikeshed, I'm just suggesting colors  ;)
21:58 TimToady plex
21:58 PerlJam pex  (for damian ;-)
21:58 TimToady "Please explain"
21:59 TimToady make it so that plex will try to explain anything, but it just happens to specialize in Perl 6.  :)
21:59 * avar forsees having to reach for the numrow to use perl6-anything
22:00 TimToady yeah, I was in 6 avoidance mode when I suggested plex
22:00 TimToady also short for Perl lexer
22:01 avar a pexer:)
22:02 obra seen audreyt
22:02 PerlJam plex also has the nice benefit that it shares 3/4 of its letters with perl
22:07 TimToady and ends the same as "index"
22:08 [particle] expl has similar characteristics
22:08 PerlJam sans the index-ending
22:08 TimToady expl deleted
22:08 [particle] no, it begins like explain
22:09 TimToady but how do you pronounce it?
22:09 avar eksple
22:09 PerlJam expl leaves a expectant sound at the end
22:10 PerlJam s/a /an /
22:10 TimToady too much like expr, maybe
22:10 [particle] i always thought of perl as a left-handed language
22:10 [particle] expr =~ y/r/l/
22:11 PerlJam [particle]: are you saying perl is like thalidomide?
22:11 TimToady plex for when you're perplexed by something complex
22:11 [particle] perl is complex?
22:11 TimToady in spots
22:11 [particle] whoa, you think if that were true, the designer would have told us to be careful....
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22:13 PerlJam but what is perl's charge and spin?
22:14 TimToady there's no charge for Perl
22:14 TimToady we have lots of spin though
22:14 [particle] 3/2
22:14 TimToady maybe it's a graviton
22:14 TimToady it sucks everything else in like a black hole...
22:15 [particle] the internals of perl5 are like a black hole...
22:15 PerlJam What's its chirality?
22:16 TimToady definitely biased towards spearmint over carraway
22:16 avar [particle]: you think p6 will be different?
22:16 PerlJam avar: it had better be different!
22:16 [particle] avar: i'm inside the event horizon on that one
22:17 [particle] or perhaps i'm beyond it
22:17 [particle] where are you?
22:17 avar huh?
22:17 PerlJam I haven't been paying attention to p5p in a long while, but is there any overlap in p5 developers and p6 developers?
22:17 TimToady he means "when are you?"
22:17 TimToady event horizons do that to you
22:18 TimToady a little--each side has its spies on the other side...
22:18 * avar still has no idea what the question is;/
22:20 chip speak into my wristwatch
22:20 TimToady open channel D
22:20 PerlJam avar: you have to squint, cock your head to one side and look sideways through space-time
22:21 TimToady avar: that's the basic problem in a nutshell--you have to design a computer language without knowing either the answers or the questions.
22:22 [particle] avar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_horizon
22:23 TimToady which is what plex will point you to if it has now idea how to explain something
22:23 TimToady s/now/no/
22:23 [particle] :)
22:23 PerlJam What was the name of that computer in HHGTTG?
22:23 PerlJam the one that gave 42 as the answer
22:24 sweinig|away is now known as sweinig
22:24 [particle] Deep Thought
22:25 PerlJam oh, of course
22:25 PerlJam (I was thinking that but also thinking that I must be conflating it with some IBM computer ;-)
22:29 TimToady I have an IBM computer right now, but I've never seen it conflate.
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22:30 TimToady though I understand some of them have been known to conflagrate.
22:31 PerlJam some even confabulate
22:32 PerlJam some police districts use them to confiscate
22:33 PerlJam But mostly computers just consternate
22:34 PerlJam (at one per minute it's going to take a while to get through all of the con.*ate words  :-)
22:35 PerlJam oh and for last minute's word ...
22:35 PerlJam but what do you expect from a big conglomerate
22:35 TimToady you need to be more considerate
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22:38 TimToady looks like the whole confeatherate army came and went...
22:38 PerlJam computers contaminate when we contemplate to consecrate
22:38 PerlJam :-)
22:40 PerlJam not to mention that messing with perl5 internals gives cause to contra-indicate
22:41 PerlJam But I don't mean to constipate
22:42 PerlJam </tarry>
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23:49 justatheory Will I be able to overload &&, ||, !, and, or, and not in Perl 6?
23:50 [particle] yes
23:51 [particle] multi prefix:<!> { ... }
23:53 justatheory Rockin!
23:53 justatheory Can't do it in Perl 5 or Ruby, so I was hoping…
23:54 [particle] you can do it already with pugs :)
23:54 Alias_ You can get rid of ALL the operators and start from scratch!
23:57 [particle] Alias_: how's pita coming?
23:57 Alias_ uh, again?
23:57 Alias_ oh right, stupid network
23:57 Alias_ [particle]> how's PITA coming along? chip asked about smoking parrot today
23:57 Alias_ Alias_> The problem of integration into CPAN has been solved
23:57 Alias_ <Alias_> The POE rewrite of the image manager has a new volunteer on it
23:58 Alias_ <Alias_> And we have some initial test images released
23:58 Alias_ <Alias_> So pretty close to having the core working now
23:58 Alias_ <Alias_> From there it's all downhill
23:58 Alias_ :)
23:59 [particle] fab! where are announcements made?

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