Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-11-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:00 Alias_ Mostly, the CPAN recent uploads page :)
00:00 Alias_ But rest assured once the core's running I'll be personally chasing people down
00:00 [particle] r0ck
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00:06 TimToady ?eval multi infix:<min> ($a,$b) { min $a, $b } my $x = 42; $x min= 21; $x
00:08 TimToady ?eval 42
00:09 TimToady funny, didn't see evalbot leave...
00:10 [particle] i think evalbot's been missing since feather had trouble
00:11 TimToady it joined 1:04 ago
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00:27 TimToady ?eval 42
00:27 evalbot_r14757 42
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00:29 TimToady when I do the infix:<min> and min= above in my pugs I get "*** Cannot cast from VInt 21 to Handle (VHandle)"
00:29 TimToady which might explain why evalbot eventually exited with a read error
00:30 TimToady mmm, it must be parsing it as $x min =21
00:31 TimToady that's going to be a rather irritating failure mode, I'm afraid...
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00:58 ingy hola sixxers
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01:05 diakopter ?seen TimToady
01:05 lambdabot TimToady is in #perl6. I last heard TimToady speak 34m 11s ago.
01:06 diakopter TimToady: has someone begun work on making a Synopses-coverage measurer/reporter for an implementation of perl6?
01:09 diakopter anyone?
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01:16 [particle] diakopter: yes
01:16 [particle] getting link...
01:16 Khisanth ?eval prefix:<<><> ($foo) { say $foo } <>< "foo";
01:16 evalbot_r14757 Error: ␤Unexpected "prefix"␤expecting program
01:16 [particle] see http://smoke.pugscode.org/
01:16 lambdabot Title: Pugs Smoke Reports
01:17 [particle] diakopter: the SYN links to the right show tests intertwined with specs
01:18 TimToady ?eval sub prefix:«<><» ($foo) { say $foo } <>< "foo"
01:18 evalbot_r14757 OUTPUT[foo␤] Bool::True
01:19 chip__ TimToady: now if you could just fit the "3 John 2" in there somewhere, you'd be all set
01:19 chip__ is now known as chip
01:19 TimToady lol
01:19 diakopter I wasn't thinking of how well the test cover the synopses, or how well the implementations cover the tests, or how well the tests cover the implementations, but on how well the implementation covers the synopses.
01:19 TimToady hmm, 3 John would be Jude...
01:19 TimToady 3 John 2 rather
01:20 TimToady It always bugged me that books with only one chapter left out the 1:
01:20 chip odd the kinds of inconsistencies that nag
01:21 chip never bothered you that it wasn't "1 Acts"?
01:21 TimToady :)
01:21 * chip was thrown off by the missing chapter too
01:21 TimToady Actually, I suppose Luke would be 0 Acts...
01:21 diakopter [particle]: ?
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01:22 chip pick your actsis
01:22 TimToady rather pick my allies
01:23 * chip comes up with an "all lies" chaining joke, but refrains
01:23 TimToady yeah, I thought of that one too.  :)
01:24 TimToady diakopter: the only way to know that is to finish the test suite, and then look at the number of passing tests.
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01:31 diakopter dare I ask how well the test suite covers the synopses?
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01:35 TimToady that's what the smartlinks are trying to get a handle on.
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03:34 * avar fixed a lot of smart links earlier
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03:52 avar /w 23
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03:57 avar oopsie
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04:09 dduncan ?eval my $foo = 'abc|def'; my @bar = split '|', @foo; print +@foo, join(',',@bar);
04:09 evalbot_r14757 OUTPUT[0] Bool::True
04:12 avar ?eval [Str.methods]
04:12 evalbot_r14757 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&methods"
04:14 dduncan I tried something different and got it to work in my own pugs
04:14 dduncan in any event, it seems that my Perl 5 isn't doing split() properly, as far as I can tell ... trying to split on a vertical bar just splits as if it were an empty string ... each character becomes its own array element ... very weird
04:15 dduncan does the vertical bar have some special meaning in a literal string in Perl 5?
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04:17 chip dduncan: it has a special meaning in a regex
04:18 dduncan yes, but I said "split '|', @ary"
04:18 dduncan does split change that literal string into a regex?
04:18 chip dduncan: quote or slash, split works with regexes
04:18 dduncan okay
04:18 dduncan I just never encountered that behaviour before
04:18 dduncan thank you
04:18 chip backwhack it and you're golden
04:18 chip np
04:19 * chip thinks we're both in the wrong channel
04:19 dduncan well I normally talk about Perl 6 here ... that was an odd exception
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04:20 dduncan in any event, I discovered that pugs treated the split argument as a literal string ... or the | was taken literally in Perl 6 regexes
04:20 dduncan separately ...
04:21 chip dduncan: perldoc -f split for the gory details, including the special case of split ' '
04:21 dduncan I noticed that my Pugs now does certain things that used to require readline to do, such as up-arrow command repetition
04:21 dduncan and I don't have readline
04:26 avar what's the operator to see whether two values are bound to the same value?
04:26 * avar doing &MAIN op &?ROUTINE for a testcase
04:27 avar === ?
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06:20 dduncan avar, you want =:=
06:21 dduncan that lets you know if 2 symbols are aliases for the same container
06:21 dduncan the === operator will tell you if 2 containers hold appearances of the same universal value, which is different
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10:44 Tokay morning
10:44 Tokay i don't know anything about perl, can you have embedded php?
10:46 Alias_ Can you embed PHP in Perl?
10:46 Alias_ Yes
10:46 Tokay i made a random charactor script in php, someone has a perl script
10:46 Tokay validation script that is
10:47 Tokay or maybe i need to embed the perl into the php script
10:47 Tokay i'll have a play
10:47 Alias_ That seems terribly drastic
10:47 Alias_ embedding like that is not something to do lightly
10:47 Tokay ok
10:47 Alias_ You know, that's probably a Perl module that does random characters for you
10:47 Tokay well i suppose i could convert the checking part of the script into perl
10:47 Alias_ there's
10:48 Alias_ On CPAN I'm sure there's a random string generator
10:48 Tokay no i make the script and someone wants to use it with a script written in perl
10:48 Tokay made*
10:49 Alias_ Well, if you absolutely have to, use PHP::Interpreter
10:49 Alias_ (the CPAN module)
10:49 Alias_ http://search.cpan.org/perldoc?PHP::Interpreter
10:49 Tokay i might aswell convert it into perl
10:49 lambdabot Title: PHP::Interpreter - An embedded PHP5 interpreter - search.cpan.org, http://tinyurl.com/y9x7nw
10:50 Alias_ Tokay: Almost certainly you want to port it
10:50 Tokay http://phpfi.com/174897
10:50 Alias_ PHP::Interpreter is mainly for large apps where clients insist on PHP templating support
10:50 lambdabot Title: nopaste: pastebin with syntax highlighting
10:50 Tokay that's all i need to convert, i'm sure perl can use post
10:51 Tokay want to learn perl anyway
10:52 Alias_ Porting can be good for that
10:52 Tokay porting?
10:52 Alias_ Converting a program from one thing to another things
10:53 Alias_ But doing the same task
10:53 Tokay ok
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10:55 Tokay thanks btw
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12:22 wolverian_ I wonder what's up with feather
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13:49 GnuVince Morning people :)
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13:59 Limbic_Region @tell Juerd FYI I have been experiencing intermittent problems connecting to CGI:IRC via feather over the last two days (2006-11-15)
13:59 lambdabot Consider it noted.
14:00 Limbic_Region salutations all
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14:03 wolverian Limbic_Region, feather has been disconnecting and reconnecting from the rest of the internet for the past few days. it's not just you. :)
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16:21 * PerlJam reads "The Dream of a Perfect Language" in lieu of Eco's book
16:29 * PerlJam thinks perl is asymptotically approaching "perfect" as far as computer languages go
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16:39 Debolaz PerlJam: Perfect being the ability to express your thoughts as directly as possible? :)
16:40 PerlJam well ... more like "prefect" in the sense that I can bend my mind around it when necessary such that I've come to think in perl occasionally.
16:42 TimToady point is, "blurfl" may express my thoughts perfectly, but it doesn't communicate
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16:45 TimToady you know, if we want Perl 6 to succeed, all we have to do is start the rumor that it was separately designed by 70 hermit/scholars who then came together and found that their results agreed perfectly.
16:54 lde TimToady: everyone said "lisp"? ;-)
16:56 * sjn would like to propose a new Perl6 meme: "Reverseengineerability"
16:57 sjn (have no idea if it's actually new, but if Perl6 could be made easy to reverse engineer, then I'd be happy :)
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16:58 aufrank hi hi
16:58 TimToady reversible transformations are definitely one of the things we're thinking about.
16:58 TimToady howdy
16:59 lde the best thing that could be done is making obfuscators programmers life a bit harder i guess
16:59 aufrank does anyone know of a debian package for ghc 6.6 that will give me a ghc suitable for building pugs?
17:00 sjn how about reversible compilation? (i.e. s/language compilation/language translation/g)
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17:00 aufrank I'm on ubuntu.  I installed the ghc 6.6 from debian unstable, but it didn't have the extralibs built
17:01 TimToady sjn: you have to be careful not to throw away important information to be fully reversible.  And certainly there are poeple who want to throw away the information because it contains trade secrets.
17:01 TimToady *people
17:02 aufrank nm, actually read the ghc download page
17:03 * sjn is more concerned with making free software easier to dissect and understand :)
17:03 TimToady Ide: I've worked on some of the obfuscated examples in pugs/examples, and it does appear that it's slightly harder to obfuscate in P6.  At least, the examples in question were more readable.  Balancing that is that the examples were just using P5 idioms rather than P6.
17:04 TimToady sjn: if the author agrees to that, we should try to help.  but I think we shouldn't force it on people.
17:04 TimToady I just want Perl to be useful, and that includes proprietary as well as free software.
17:06 sjn no forcing is necessary. just like everyone is free to strip(1) symbols from a compiled program... :)
17:06 TimToady I am, after all, part of the reason we ended up with the term "open source" as distinct from "free software".
17:07 TimToady so I believe in it for practical reasons more than ideological reasons.
17:07 sjn hmf. I need to go (stupid me to start a thought just before I have to leave :-P)
17:08 * sjn will be back :)
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17:10 lde TimToady: that's what i mean. slightly.
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17:30 * avar prods TimToady for that:)
17:31 avar aufrank: just compile it, that's what I do:)
17:32 avar don't you want to be cool like me?:)
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17:44 [particle] TimToady: i think your S02 patch still leaves room for misinterpreting $::foo
17:45 [particle] ...or is that no longer legal?
18:01 broquaint win 2
18:01 broquaint Rrr.
18:09 aufrank has audreyt_returned from her post-superman-returns crash?
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18:15 obra I don't believe so
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18:50 dmq timtoady you about?
18:53 dmq @tell timtoady Added relative backreferences to perl5. Notation: \RN where N is a positive decimal integer. \R1 refers the most recent closed capture group relative to where the \R1 is located.
18:53 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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18:56 dmq @tell timtoady thus $pair=qr/(.+)\R1/; creates an embeddable pattern that will correctly match a duplicate sequence. Without relative backreferences I dont think this is possible.
18:56 lambdabot Consider it noted.
18:56 dmq @tell timtoady sorry if this breaks something or contradicts something. hope not. have a nice day. :-)
18:56 lambdabot Consider it noted.
18:59 gaal all that's really needed for p6 to be ultimately obfuscable is for someone to prove that a minilang consiting in meta- and hyper-ops can do *
19:07 [particle] gaal: can you have a look at the bug report for Test::TAP::Model?
19:08 [particle] it's preventing some parrotcoders from generating smoke reports on linux
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19:27 eviltwin_b is this the one that's biting me on ppc darwin/osx as well?  (throws an odd elements in hash error, then undef in sub entry)
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19:50 salty-horse the pugscode.org page is sent in iso-8859-1 instead of utf-8. some of the asian characters aren't displayed correctly
19:51 salty-horse also, "examples" now points to a wrong location (there's no trunk/ in the new repo)
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20:18 gaal rehi
20:19 gaal [particle]: oops, hadn't seen this. looking
20:19 [particle] great, thanks
20:19 [particle] if you need, the folks with trouble are on #parrot and can provide more debugging aid
20:21 gaal they all pass for me :(
20:22 gaal i suspect there's wrong prereq metadata
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20:27 nothingmuch [particle]: which version of Test::Harness?
20:27 gaal [particle]: what's your Test::Harness version?
20:27 gaal heh.
20:28 gaal fwiw mine's 2^8 / 10 * 10
20:28 gaal modulo parentheses.
20:30 [particle] me? i'm not havingTest::TAP::Model problems
20:30 nothingmuch oh
20:30 nothingmuch i have to go to a friend
20:30 nothingmuch 2.56?
20:30 nothingmuch (gaal)
20:30 [particle] i'm getting pmichaud_ to join
20:30 gaal y
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20:31 [particle] i have 2.56, and it's working
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20:32 [particle] coke: you having Test:TAP:Model install problems?
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20:36 nothingmuch i have 2.64 and it breaks =)
20:36 coke If that was the one that required me to install expat, yes.
20:36 nothingmuch_ feh
20:36 nothingmuch_ i have 2.64 and it breaks =)
20:36 nothingmuch_ irssi is being insane
20:36 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
20:37 gaal nothingmuch_: i'm over at #parrot and data confirms so far.
20:37 coke honestly, I don't recall. I had hoped that it would devolve into generic "improve make smoke" chat.
20:37 nothingmuch i can reproduce the breakage
20:37 sweinig|away is now known as sweinig
20:37 nothingmuch i ahve to go to a friend's house
20:37 nothingmuch and then i will fix when I'm back
20:37 gaal moose moose
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20:37 [particle] tell your friend we said moose
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20:38 nothingmuch moose =)
20:44 gaal @tell nothingmuch #parrot confirms it's T:H:Straps; ++ for fixaround if you got one else I'll do it tomorrow evening
20:45 lambdabot Consider it noted.
20:45 [particle] gaal: has there been talk of improving the smokeserver?
20:45 [particle] it's hard to trace one test across smokes, for example
20:46 [particle] i think a moose could fix this in a jifty
20:48 * dmq accelerates particle
20:49 * [particle] hits a wall
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20:52 dmq arent particles supposed to go through the wall?
20:52 PerlJam depends on the particle
20:53 PerlJam (and how fast it's traveling)
20:54 [particle] and what the wall's made of... darned magnetic bottles
20:55 PerlJam Don't damage the Wall.
20:58 dmq Bring down this wall!
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21:03 gaal Bring Wall the down (so he doesn't catch a cold)
21:03 gaal [particle]: there has
21:04 gaal one large improvement is that the TAP data is submitted serverside (used to be only the html was)
21:04 gaal so applications like you suggest can actually be written.
21:04 [particle] yay
21:05 gaal see also Chimps on CPAN
21:05 gaal I've been kinda out of things past month or two :(
21:05 gaal but $project is ending and the next one is closer to home so hopefully, more hack time
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22:03 nothingmuch feck
22:03 lambdabot nothingmuch: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:04 nothingmuch nothing in the changelog seems suspicious
22:04 nothingmuch @moosages
22:04 lambdabot gaal said 1h 19m 12s ago: #parrot confirms it's T:H:Straps; ++ for fixaround if you got one else I'll do it tomorrow evening
22:04 nothingmuch @tell gaal i'm off to sleep now, i'll do it first thing in the morning
22:04 lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:05 nothingmuch @tell gaal btw, i have more maint work so this fits in (cookiecutter, etc). in short, don't bother
22:05 lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:05 nothingmuch oh wait
22:05 nothingmuch Test::Harness::Results
22:05 nothingmuch 2.63_01
22:05 nothingmuch feck drink arse
22:06 nothingmuch i guess this means the fix will be eas
22:06 nothingmuch y
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22:09 GeJ møøse all
22:17 nothingmuch møøøse
22:17 nothingmuch sleepy moose
22:17 nothingmuch ciao
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