Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-11-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:12 audreyt fixed
00:12 lambdabot audreyt: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
00:12 audreyt (utf8)
00:12 TimToady thx
00:12 TimToady you okay?
00:12 audreyt loumz: while you are at it, can you also fix the slides to point to the later-day .pdf slides instead of .xul?
00:13 audreyt well, maintaining sanity, but online time is luxury
00:13 audreyt need to run in 18min
00:13 loumz audreyt: where can I find these PDF slides?
00:13 audreyt hopefully it'll all be settled next week and I can post more update
00:13 audreyt loumz: grep thru pugs.blogs.com
00:13 audreyt use the amazon slides for pugs
00:13 gnuvince audreyt: without wanting to nose in your personal life, something wrong?
00:13 audreyt conisli for -OFun
00:13 loumz audreyt: OK, I'll try to do that
00:13 audreyt loumz: thanks!
00:14 audreyt gnuvince: yeah. :) details later.
00:14 gnuvince Okay.  Take care of yourself then :)
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00:14 audreyt I try :)
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00:16 audreyt TimToady: I just restarted svnsync to openfoundry
00:16 audreyt will take another coulpe hours
00:16 audreyt will worry about the stale svn.perl.org mirror later
00:16 TimToady np
00:17 Limbic_Region TimToady - will look at source to see if I can find the request for STDIN
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00:17 TimToady workaround on Unix is just to type ^D
00:17 Limbic_Region Windows should be ^Z
00:17 Limbic_Region but that doesn't work
00:18 Limbic_Region and I can't see anything that would tell me where it is hanging - going to turn on debug
00:18 Limbic_Region infinite loops looks like to me
00:19 Limbic_Region oh wait, it finally stopped spitting out debugging stuff
00:20 Limbic_Region TimToady - you are right, ctrl-z does get it to finish, but it still takes several seconds before bombing
00:20 TimToady in meeting, so distracted...
00:21 Limbic_Region sorry, will try to finish debugging on my own
00:22 Limbic_Region heh, there is a comment right in the test case - the following hangs pugs
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00:27 loumz hmm, most of the slides links on pugscode.org seem to be 404, the only one that works is "Deploying to Perl6"
00:28 loumz maybe I'll comment them out for now
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00:41 loumz is "português" the right translation for "Portuguese" (the language)?
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01:16 svnbot6 r14769 | loumz++ | * docs/feather/pugscode.org/index.html : commented out the XUL slides (404),
01:16 svnbot6 r14769 | loumz++ |   changed "Intro to Pugs" to point to the Amazon/DLS06 Pugs slides, added
01:16 svnbot6 r14769 | loumz++ |   links to the CONISLI -Ofun slides.
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01:19 cmarcelo loumz: yes, it's "Português"..
01:20 loumz cmarcelo: thanks, now I should change the link to "-Ofun (Português)" :)
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01:23 cmarcelo loumz: http://feather.perl6.nl/~audreyt/osdc/ => has the xul slides
01:23 lambdabot Title: Index of /~audreyt/osdc
01:25 loumz cmarcelo: OK, do you also know where the translations (like http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tokyo/pugs.xul) are?
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01:26 cmarcelo loumz: s/autrijus/audreyt/ and you'll find ;-)
01:26 loumz cmarcelo: OK, thanks!
01:27 cmarcelo :)
01:34 svnbot6 r14770 | loumz++ | * docs/feather/pugscode.org/index.html: XUL slides found, thanks cmarcelo!
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02:07 svnbot6 r14771 | cmarcelo++ | * A few s/svn.openfoundry/svn.pugscode/
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03:34 svnbot6 r14772 | audreyt++ | * Add back pugs.small.png icon
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10:17 Pranavaswaroop G'afternoon
10:24 SCalimlim past midnight here ;-P
10:24 svnbot6 r14773 | fglock++ | MP6 - added mp6-perl5-boot.pl - bootstrapped compiler script
10:26 Pranavaswaroop oh me in India GMT + 5h 30min
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11:55 svnbot6 r14774 | fglock++ | MP6 - optimized memory usage - now it takes 96s to compile from v6.pm
12:05 Pranavaswaroop I have a query related to documentation can somebody help me
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12:06 fglock Pranavaswaroop: just ask
12:11 Pranavaswaroop ok
12:11 Pranavaswaroop I had been here yesterday too
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12:12 svnbot6 r14775 | fglock++ | MP6 - fixed 'for'
12:12 Pranavaswaroop I had asked TimToady and Limbic_Region about this but yesterday due to unavoidable circumstances I wasn't able to get through with the links
12:13 Pranavaswaroop I just want to start with the documentation stuff and get involved with the perl documentation part
12:14 Pranavaswaroop I also got an innvitation to the pugs
12:14 Pranavaswaroop Now I need a job to get along
12:15 Pranavaswaroop and contribute
12:16 audreyt a good way to start is reading through docs/Perl6/*
12:16 audreyt especially Overview/
12:16 audreyt and check it against Synopsis at spec.pugscode.org
12:16 audreyt addd missing overviews
12:16 audreyt fix broken overviews
12:16 audreyt if you see omissions etc, check here, and fill it in
12:17 audreyt general reformatting will also help
12:19 Pranavaswaroop ok
12:21 fglock audreyt: hi!
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12:32 andara svn switch --relocate  seems not to work for svn 1.2.3. And I cant upgrade to 1.4. Is a new checkout my only option?
12:32 xinming fglock: Is MP6 self-hosting for now?
12:33 fglock xinming: it can already compile about 1/3 of itself
12:33 fglock I'm now debugging comments
12:33 xinming fglock: I saw some files are already compiled. :-P
12:33 xinming fglock++
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12:36 fglock the bootstrap sequence is MP6 source -> through v6.pm -> MP6-in-perl5
12:36 fglock and then MP6 source -> through MP6-in-perl5 -> MP6-in-perl5
12:36 fglock the second part is almost done :)
12:37 xinming hmm, if i understand correctly, Doest that mean, after mp6 is self-hosting, then, we can use the 'result' mp6 to bootstrap perl 6?
12:38 xinming How about parrot?
12:38 svnbot6 r14776 | fglock++ | MP6 - fixed 'for' again
12:38 xinming hmm, Ok, I'll ask you after you've done the job. :-)
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12:39 fglock xinming: no, Miniperl6 is only a small language
12:39 fglock which Perl6 can execute natively
12:39 fglock and it is easy to port to several backends
12:40 fglock so we can use it as a first step to write full-perl6 - but it will require several bootstraps to get there
12:40 xinming will there be a boost on speed?
12:41 xinming bootstrap again again and again. >_<
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12:45 fglock miniperl6 will be a bit faster than full-perl6, but that's just because it doesn't have many features
12:48 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
12:49 fglock xinming: after MP6 bootstraps, we mean to write reusable MP6 code for Haskell, Perl5, Parrot, and Javascript backends
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12:54 xinming hmm, For parrot, Do we have to use parrot PIR to write a AST runner for MP6?
12:54 xinming and then, compile the ast to parrot native asm.
12:56 fglock xinming: you only need to fill-in PIR snippets in the Emitter - all AST transformations are done at MP6 level
12:57 xinming Ok, thanks... :-)
12:57 fglock you also need to write a small runtime lib, and a 'compile' script
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13:04 Pranavaswaroop I got an error message saying
13:05 Pranavaswaroop sorry
13:06 fglock comments fixed - recompiling
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13:13 Limbic_Region good morning smokemachine
13:14 Pranavaswaroop oh hi Limbic_Region
13:14 Pranavaswaroop I was waiting
13:14 Limbic_Region that sounds ominous
13:15 fglock MiniPerl6::Perl5::Emitter and MiniPerl6::Emitter::Token compile ok
13:15 Pranavaswaroop oh k may be:)
13:17 svnbot6 r14777 | yiyihu++ |  r14817@HomePc:  xinming | 2006-11-06 01:06:14 +0800
13:17 svnbot6 r14777 | yiyihu++ |  Make local branch for pugs.
13:17 svnbot6 r14777 | yiyihu++ |  r14996@HomePc:  xinming | 2006-11-17 21:03:30 +0800
13:17 svnbot6 r14777 | yiyihu++ |  Fixed url for Pugs Example
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13:20 xinming oops...
13:20 xinming I think I screw up the mirror...
13:20 xinming hopes not
13:23 svnbot6 r14778 | fglock++ | MP6 - Token and Perl5 emitters compile cleanly
13:26 fglock echo 'class Main { say "hello, World" }' | perl -Ilib5 mp6-perl5-boot.pl | perl -Ilib5
13:26 fglock xinming: would you try this:
13:27 fglock from v6/v6-MiniPerl6/
13:28 xinming Ok
13:28 xinming works fine
13:28 fglock cool
13:28 xinming hello, World
13:35 fglock audreyt: ping
13:35 svnbot6 r14779 | fglock++ | * This is MiniPerl6 0.001
13:35 svnbot6 r14779 | fglock++ |   v6/v6-MiniPerl6$  echo 'class Main { say "hello, World" }' | perl -Ilib5 mp6-perl5-boot.pl | perl -Ilib5
13:36 xinming fglock: I think audreyt isn't here. She might be busy with something
13:37 fglock @tell audreyt see r14779
13:37 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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14:36 masak fglock++ # v0.001
14:36 integral SamB: I can't stand where clauses for precisely this reason.  I like lots of small modules instead :-)
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15:11 svnbot6 r14780 | fglock++ | MP6 - reorganize docs
15:11 svnbot6 r14780 | fglock++ | - remove lib5-orig/
15:11 svnbot6 r14780 | fglock++ | - move bootstrap script to util/
15:11 svnbot6 r14780 | fglock++ | - rename v6.pm version to mp6-perl5-v6.pl;
15:11 svnbot6 r14780 | fglock++ |   bootstrapped version is mp6-perl5-boot.pl
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17:21 svnbot6 r14781 | fglock++ | MP6 - implemented nested Array binding  [$a, [$b, $c]] := [1, [2, 3]]
17:21 svnbot6 r14781 | fglock++ | - implemented .isa()
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17:48 svnbot6 r14782 | fglock++ | MP6 - added POD to the source files
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17:48 ludan ola
17:49 fglock ludan: ola
17:50 xinming what does ola mean please? >_<
17:50 fglock hi
17:50 xinming ola..
17:51 fglock "olá" in portuguese
17:51 xinming thanks
17:51 fglock "ola" is spanish
17:52 [particle] hola is spanish
17:52 fglock right :)
17:52 TimToady if you're going to add minimal pod support it would be better for it to be P6 support rather than P5.  We're trying to kill =cut
17:52 * xinming just knows hello is English..
17:53 TimToady =begin/=end would be better
17:53 fglock TimToady: fixing
18:00 svnbot6 r14783 | fglock++ | MP6 - use =begin/=end for pod blocks - TimToady++
18:02 TimToady thanx
18:02 fglock you are welcome :)
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19:15 svnbot6 r14784 | fglock++ | MP6 - initial (wrong) implementation of Hash binding
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19:24 svnbot6 r14785 | fglock++ | MP6 - reorganize docs
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19:39 svnbot6 r14786 | fglock++ | MP6 - added TODO
19:50 stevan__ is now known as stevan
19:50 stevan not sure if this has been posted already, but I think it is relevant - http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1840
19:50 lambdabot Title: De-Scheming MIT? | Lambda the Ultimate
19:52 fglock stevan: MP6 is usable now
19:53 stevan fglock: cool
19:53 stevan I have been dipping my toes in the Haskell pool lately actually
19:53 stevan and a little scheme too
19:55 GnuVince Scheme is cool
19:56 fglock one sec, I'll commit the "hello, World" example
19:56 stevan (+ 1 ( + 1 scheme))
20:00 svnbot6 r14787 | fglock++ | MP6 - hello.sh - "hello, World" example
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20:01 fglock the students in the robotics lab learn a language I implemented in Perl :)
20:02 fglock stevan: see v6/v6-MiniPerl6, try 'sh hello.sh'
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20:19 nothingmuch stevan: please... (+ 1 1 scheme)
20:20 sweinig|brb is now known as sweinig
20:21 GnuVince Why (+ 1 1 scheme)?
20:22 [particle] ETOOMANYONES
20:23 TimToady oneupmanship
20:23 nothingmuch GnuVince: i'm not serious =)
20:24 GnuVince nothingmuch: I mean, use (1+ scheme)
20:24 nothingmuch GnuVince: scheme deserve more karma than that ;-)
20:24 nothingmuch seriously, ask stevan =)
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20:32 * stevan ponders a version of ++ using chuch numerals :P
20:33 TimToady that would be...ponderous
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20:34 [particle] ROFM
20:34 [particle] *moaning :P
20:34 stevan wow man,.. these Parrot guys are sick :P
20:36 stevan ((? n. ? f. ? x. f (n f x)) ? f. ? x. x))
20:36 stevan thats a successor function being applied to the zero church numeral
20:36 stevan as close as I can get on short notice
20:37 stevan hmm... might be too many parens in there,.. but since we are giving props to scheme ;)
20:38 Limbic_Region stevan - if Lisp has taught us anything, it is that there is never enough parens
20:39 * [particle] considers designing a lisp keyboard with the 'f' and 'j' chars replaced by parens
20:44 GnuVince [particle]: hehehe
20:44 GnuVince writing 'defun' would be cubersome.
20:48 sweinig is now known as sweinig|bbl
20:49 [particle] yeah, it would take all defun out of it
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21:12 * smash_ good evening
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21:49 stevan TimToady: re: state conflicts in roles (I just read the latest design notes)
21:50 stevan the approach we settled on in Moose was that attributes conflict by name, with no chance to resolve
21:50 stevan its a little extreme, but things got way too messy when we tried to detect conflicts on a more granular level (between accessors, etc)
21:51 stevan we pondered namespacing the role imported attr's slots
21:51 [particle] we're trending towards role-based composition in parrot
21:51 [particle] in fact, i suggested the use of 'metaroles' instead of metaclasses
21:51 stevan [particle]: its a very clean way to put things together on the lower levels
21:52 stevan [particle]: there is a paper about that, but the traits folks
21:52 stevan it reduces the need to inherit metaclasses, which can get really really messy
21:53 [particle] since we'll be doing roles anyway, why bother with metaclasses, i figure
21:53 [particle] there's no reason for them
21:53 stevan TimToady: the namespaceing of attribute slots from roles was ruled out as well, again, the whole auto-generated accessor conflicts
21:53 [particle] stevan: i'd probably recommend that approach for parrot, as well
21:54 [particle] if HLLs want to do mangling, namespacing, etc they're on their own
21:54 stevan [particle]: the only issue (and they talk about this in the paper) is that you have a more complex bootstrap
21:54 stevan because you end up needing a primative role and primative class
21:55 stevan so the nice tied-knot of the metamodel gets muddied slightly
21:55 [particle] hrmm. do you have a reference to the paper? can i just seach 'metarole' or do they just call them roles?
21:56 stevan http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/cgi-bin/scgbib.cgi?query=Uniform+and+Safe+Metaclass+Composition
21:56 lambdabot Title: SCG Bibliography, http://tinyurl.com/y87qs2
21:56 [particle] fab, thx
21:58 stevan they dont deal with state though
21:59 stevan when i emailed them about a year ago on it, their response was "good luck, let us know how it works out"
22:00 [particle] i'd respond, "thank you for the prototype, we'll build the release version" :)
22:00 stevan :)
22:01 stevan well they must be pondering it now, it looks like they emailed TimToady on it :)
22:01 stevan its a thorny problem though
22:01 stevan especially when you throw in the auto-generated accessors
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22:40 gnuvince jamessan!
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