Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-11-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:06 froggero1 joined perl6
00:07 froggero1 hey does anyone know where to find some good documentation about creating perl modules and how that process works... dealing with the makefile and all that jazz, as well as modifying exsisting modules?
00:08 mugwump for perl 5 or 6?
00:08 froggero1 probably 5 to start, are there many changes?
00:08 froggero1 (the only reason I say 5 is because that's what mac's ship with :p)
00:08 mugwump perl 6 is a complete redesign
00:09 froggero1 what would you suggest?
00:09 froggero1 which is easier to work with, having no knowledge of either system
00:09 mugwump 5 has more documentation and examples... depends if you feel like being an early adopter I guess
00:10 mugwump some people are making real applications with perl 6 already, and an early perl 6 alpha is due soon
00:10 froggero1 hmm...
00:10 mugwump did you find the perlmod* manual pages in the perl 5 distro?
00:11 froggero1 I haven't even started looking for docs yet, still finishing my morning cofee :)
00:12 Debolaz Now to figure out a genious way of keeping and passing around config stuff in my script.
00:13 froggero1 eh... just started touching on the subject of perl6... looks like it's a little conviluted to get it installed on os x
00:13 froggero1 so, let's just say that we're looking for perl5 documentation for mods ;)
00:13 froggero1 that's preferably not a man page
00:14 wolverian either use the perldoc tool (perldoc perlmod), or perldoc.perl.org
00:16 Debolaz What's the "right" way to load a module runtime? Still eval "use $module"?
00:22 mugwump require $module works, too
00:27 froggero1 http://mathforum.org/~ken/perl_modules.html looks like some alright docs
00:27 lambdabot Title: Creating (and Maintaining) Perl Modules
00:27 froggero1 thanks lambdabot
00:32 froggero1 a bit out of date it seems though... oh well :)
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00:35 Debolaz froggero1: http://www.apress.com/free/index.html <- Second book.
00:35 lambdabot Title: A P R E S S . C O M
00:41 froggero1 you wrote that?
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01:11 alexi5 hello
01:12 alexi5 when is perl 6 going to take over perl 5
01:19 Tene Tomorrow, actually.
01:19 Tene You're one day too early.
01:26 GeJ alexi5: the release plan says Christmas. Unfortunately, due to network issues, the document got corrupted, and the actual year of the release got lost on the Interweb.
01:27 GeJ but I was told that the perl.org admins are working on this and try to get the missing bits back.
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02:32 Debolaz I guess this might sound stupid, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to dereference a hash.
02:34 eviltwin_b %myhash = (...); say %myhash<string>
02:34 eviltwin_b (for literal string)
02:34 eviltwin_b {} like in perl5 for an expression
02:36 Debolaz Well, I'm trying to pass a hash reference to a constructor (Configuration data). submethod BUILD ($config); This takes input from "filename".slurp.eval(:lang<yaml>);
02:38 eviltwin_b if it's a hash reference stored in a scalar then it's e.g. $config<string> or $config{expression}
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02:43 Debolaz Seems the problem was really that I thought <> would evaluate the statement.
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03:43 froggero1 does anyone know of a good perdoc to html converter?
03:58 audreyt alias pod2html='perl -MPod::Simple::HTML -e Pod::Simple::HTML::go'
03:58 audreyt pod2html foo.pod > foo.html
03:58 audreyt need to install POD::Simple from CPAN
03:58 froggero1 rgr, thanks :)
03:58 audreyt np :)
03:59 Debolaz audreyt :)
03:59 froggero1 um... wait, what if my POD's inside the mod?
03:59 audreyt froggero1: still works
03:59 froggero1 cool
03:59 eviltwin_b then feed it the module, the pod tools handle that
03:59 froggero1 just use the .pm then?
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03:59 froggero1 nice
03:59 * Debolaz gets no reply from audreyt :/
03:59 Chewie[] http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/43715043/ - That should be the Perl 6 mascot.
04:00 lambdabot Title: Dream Creature by ~kittiemeow on deviantART
04:00 audreyt Debolaz: er sorry. %()
04:00 audreyt %$foo %(..expr..)
04:02 Debolaz This was eventually figured out once I discovered that <> did not do what I thought it did.
04:03 audreyt what is this <>?
04:04 Debolaz obj.method(:argument<literal>)
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04:05 audreyt aha. you want :moose(expr)
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04:05 Debolaz I opted with the more familiar and not as frightening argument => foo :)
04:06 audreyt timtowtdi...
04:07 Debolaz So it turns out I actually had the hash dereferencing right the first time but I was passing a literal string instead of a hash reference.
04:08 Debolaz Hopefully I'll get a little bit better, this is my first serious perl 6 project, a package manager for multiple backends.
04:09 audreyt oooh
04:22 Debolaz my $pm = PM.new; my $xchat_package = $pm.find('xchat'); $xchat_package.install; Or one can use $pm to manage packages on the system: $pm.want($xchat_package); $pm.sync;
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04:43 * xinming mises audreyt... :-)
04:52 audreyt xinming: me too :) at latest I'll be back on 9th, hopefully sooner
05:08 xinming >_< Ok, are you busy for job?
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06:40 audreyt @tell fglock turns out my macbook is two 256MB... is yours 512 or 256?
06:40 lambdabot Consider it noted.
06:40 audreyt @tell fglock anyway I'll still send both to you :)
06:40 lambdabot Consider it noted.
06:40 lypanov audreyt: depends how much he had
06:41 lypanov audreyt: macbook pro's come with uneven amounts. macbooks have equal amounts in each slot
06:41 lypanov as in, if it were a 1gb machine, it'd be 2*512
06:41 lypanov fwiw :P
06:41 audreyt yeah. I was afraid that he'd have two 256s
06:41 audreyt in which case fedexing mine ot him won't help
06:44 lypanov audreyt: sure it would. sell 'em and get something else :) heh
06:45 Tene Heh.
06:45 audreyt er. the problem was fnac sao paulo, where we got fglock's new macbook, didn't have any more ram units
06:46 lypanov audreyt: ach. hey btw :)
06:47 audreyt hey :)
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07:59 Debolaz @array.foreach { # What's wrong with this?
07:59 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
08:01 Tene There isn't a postfix foreach.
08:02 TimToady (there isn't any "foreach")
08:02 Tene That too.
08:02 Tene There also isn't a postfix for, I don't think.
08:02 TimToady and you can't supply an argument to a method without () or :
08:05 TimToady there will be a .each.  it's just not implemented yet.
08:08 TimToady anyway, there's:
08:08 TimToady ?eval my @array = 1,2,3; @array.map: { .say }
08:08 evalbot_r14848 OUTPUT[1␤2␤3␤] (Bool::True, Bool::True, Bool::True)
08:09 TimToady ?eval my @array = 1,2,3; for @array { .say }
08:09 evalbot_r14848 OUTPUT[1␤2␤3␤] undef
08:09 TimToady and that, of course.
08:09 Tene ?exal my @array = <one two threee>; for @array {say $_}
08:10 Tene ?eval my @array = <one two threee>; for @array {say $_}
08:10 evalbot_r14848 OUTPUT[one␤two␤threee␤] undef
08:13 * araujo tries again svn
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08:21 dduncan TimToady, are you feeling better now (relative to some weeks earlier)?
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09:05 masak what's the difference between .map and .each?
09:05 masak (intuitively, I wouldn't expect a result array from .each)
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11:35 agentzh @tell audreyt how do you deal with nonascii sticky values in Jifty please? is there any special treatments? setting sticky_on_success to true only gives me some weird chars left in the textbox after the action is committed. :(
11:35 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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12:14 audreyt @tell agentzh try #jifty -- also I just committed a fix to jifty trunk that may have fixed this
12:15 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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12:48 * araujo wonders if somebody has compiled pugs recently
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13:02 gaal araujo: I had some trouble with debian's new ghc 6.6, but had very little time to investigate
13:02 gaal (something about cabal directives not parseable)
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13:56 Limbic_Region salutations all
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14:14 * smash_ good afternoon
14:14 araujo gaal, ok, i am also trying with 6.6
14:15 araujo Setup: error reading ./.setup-config; run "setup configure" command?
14:15 araujo that's with , sh configure
14:15 Limbic_Region araujo - OSX ?
14:15 araujo no, gnu/linux
14:16 Limbic_Region you are trying to compile GHC then not pugs, sorry I misunderstood
14:16 araujo uh?
14:16 Limbic_Region you may need autoconf
14:17 araujo i already got ghc6.6 installed
14:17 Limbic_Region ok - so pugs should be perl Makefile.pl; make
14:17 Limbic_Region no sh configure necessary
14:18 * Limbic_Region suspects he is missing some vital information and goes back to read the irc logs
14:18 araujo mm...
14:19 Limbic_Region araujo - ok, after having read the logs you didn't describe what your problem was - just that you were having one
14:19 Limbic_Region so - after ensuring that ghc and perl5 are both in your path
14:19 Limbic_Region it should be as simple as
14:19 Limbic_Region perl Makefile.PL
14:19 Limbic_Region make
14:19 Limbic_Region if those steps are failing, please nopaste
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14:20 araujo Limbic_Region, sh configure has never been used for pugs?
14:20 Limbic_Region no
14:20 araujo ok
14:21 Limbic_Region in fact, if you cat configure - it is just perl Makefile.PL $@
14:21 Limbic_Region admittedly, this should still work
14:21 araujo well, i keep getting that Setup error ...
14:22 Limbic_Region araujo - and where did you get your pugs from? - latest from repo or from CPAN or ???
14:22 araujo i just got it from svn repo
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14:23 Limbic_Region hrm
14:23 araujo that's why i wonder if somebody has recently compiled it.
14:23 Limbic_Region have you tried make realclean; perl Makefile.PL; make
14:23 Limbic_Region I compile it every day (sometimes multiple times)
14:23 araujo i'll do that now.
14:24 Limbic_Region and if you check the smoke reports, the last linux smoke was for r14842
14:24 Limbic_Region which I think is only 6 revs ago
14:26 Limbic_Region araujo - oh, and also out of curiosity, which repo are you using?>
14:26 agentzh araujo: you got errors during `configure`?
14:26 lambdabot agentzh: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:26 araujo http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/
14:26 * agentzh backlogs.
14:26 lambdabot Title: Revision 14848: /
14:26 araujo agentzh, no error
14:27 Limbic_Region araujo - ok, so after the realclean are you still having problems?
14:27 agentzh okay
14:28 araujo Limbic_Region, next to it, hold
14:28 agentzh audreyt: #jifty is terribly quiet. :)
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14:33 * Limbic_Region is still holding
14:40 agentzh anyone willing to add tests for damian's S26 to the pugs test suite? :)
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14:40 agentzh (and also smartlinks)
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14:58 Limbic_Region araujo - still bombing?
15:30 obra morning
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15:50 fglock obra: good morning
15:54 obra heya fglock. how's things?
15:58 fglock obra: everything is fine; now planning what to do next :)
15:59 obra ooh.
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16:07 araujo mmm....
16:08 araujo Limbic_Region, perl Makefile.PL ....
16:08 araujo That's just sh configure
16:09 araujo same error
16:12 Limbic_Region well, you have it backwards
16:12 Limbic_Region sh configure is just perl Makefile.PL
16:12 Limbic_Region but it is weird that you are getting the same error
16:13 araujo :-(
16:13 Limbic_Region eval:  my @foo = 1 .. 4; ~@foo
16:13 buubot Limbic_Region:  4294967291
16:13 Limbic_Region odd
16:14 Limbic_Region araujo - can you nopaste the error with some (all?) the lines that came before it?
16:15 TimToady ?eval my @foo = 1 .. 4; ~@foo
16:15 evalbot_r14848 "1 2 3 4"
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16:16 Limbic_Region TimToady - yes, I just noticed buubot and wanted to see if it was functioning here (as in #perl) or if buu had it here for more nefarious purposes
16:16 araujo http://paste.lisp.org/display/30796
16:16 Limbic_Region I should have omitted the ~ though
16:19 araujo Limbic_Region, ideas?
16:19 Limbic_Region araujo - searching now
16:21 Limbic_Region in your pugs directory there is no .setup-config file?
16:22 araujo no
16:24 Limbic_Region very odd
16:25 Limbic_Region oh wait, no its not
16:26 Limbic_Region your ghc is missing the extra-libs
16:26 Limbic_Region yay
16:26 Limbic_Region araujo - Setup: cannot satisfy dependency network-any
16:26 Limbic_Region araujo - did you get a binary build or did you build yourself?
16:29 Limbic_Region araujo?
16:32 Limbic_Region @tell araujo Your problem is simple, your GHC doesn't have the extra-libs (Setup: cannot satisfy dependency network-any).  If I had thought to ask for a nopaste earlier I would have seen it.  If you built yourself you need to add the extra-libs before compiling - binary versions should have them included (at least for Win32).
16:32 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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17:41 ciberfe could someone help me, i need to make a webpage to upload images but i have to do it in perl and i dont know perl or cgi
17:43 PerlJam ciberfe: http://learn.perl.org
17:43 lambdabot Title: learn.perl.org: The site for people learning Perl.
17:44 PerlJam ciberfe: Also, note that this channel is about perl6 and you're probably looking for perl5 resources.  Try #perl or #perlhelp or something of that nature.
17:45 ciberfe ok, sorry, i am desesperate
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18:27 Limbic_Region ?seen araujo
18:27 lambdabot araujo is in #perl6, #gentoo-haskell, #haskell and #Haskell. I last heard araujo speak 2h 4m 53s ago.
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18:31 eviltwin_b whoops
18:32 * eviltwin_b leaves a note to dons that his patch to lambdabot is a little broken still :>
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18:42 ozo tr
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18:49 wolverian okay, who's forgetting nice? :)
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18:54 PerlJam Juerd should enforce some niceness :)
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19:13 GeJ møøse folks
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19:30 fglock re MP6 - I'm deciding on what to do next - finish Parrot bootstrap; start a 'D' language implementation; start working on MP6-MO - opinions are welcome
19:32 PerlJam fglock: where can I read more on mp6?  just the docs in pugs?
19:32 PerlJam (or code)
19:34 fglock PerlJam: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-MiniPerl6/ - there are several .pod files
19:34 lambdabot Title: Revision 14848: /v6/v6-MiniPerl6
19:34 [particle] fglock: what's currently using mp6?
19:35 PerlJam fglock: in general my opinion would be that you NOT implement D  :-)
19:35 fglock [particle]: it is not used yet, it is only used by itself
19:36 fglock PerlJam: any particular reason?
19:36 PerlJam fglock: purely selfish reasons.  I  think that the parrot bootstrap or mp6-mo have more promise in the big picture.
19:36 [particle] how about bc on mp6?
19:37 fglock PerlJam: ok
19:37 PerlJam fglock: if I had my druthers, I'd ask you to finish the parrot bootstrap.  But no real logic behind that either :-)
19:37 [particle] pmichaud and i are working on languages/abc/ in parrot, if that could use mp6 it'd give us a good example of what mp6 can do for compilers
19:38 [particle] s/s$/ writers/
19:38 PerlJam [particle]: It would be good to see a direct comparison between the two approaches there.  
19:38 [particle] pj: precisely
19:39 [particle] right now, neither pm or i can see how to use mp6... that's a problem
19:39 [particle] an example (any example even) would help
19:39 [particle] but bc seems like a good fit to me
19:39 fglock [particle]: mp6 is implemented in mp6 :)
19:40 PerlJam the AST reminds me of pascal for some reason
19:40 [particle] yes, i know, but a less twisted^W^W more concrete example might help
19:41 [particle] or, translating parrot ast to mp6 ast would be a good example, too
19:42 fglock audreyt could answer best - the "tree-transformations" was her idea
19:42 [particle] i have a dream of tcl on js
19:43 PerlJam fglock: what's with the double-$ everywhere?
19:43 [particle] fglock: okay, i'll ask audreyt whenever we're both around
19:44 fglock PerlJam: it's the syntax to extract the return-object from a perl6 Match
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19:45 * PerlJam looks at some generated code an nearly falls out of his seat
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19:46 PerlJam I have never seen so much "do"  :-)
19:46 pmurias hi all
19:47 pmurias fglock: are there any particular reasons you want to make a D implementation?
19:47 fglock pmurias: audreyt said it would be cool
19:47 TimToady she says that about a lot of things.  :)
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19:53 PerlJam fglock: if you want my opinion, I'd say finish the parrot boostrap and then work on a version of bc that uses mp6 as an analog to tge
19:54 TimToady that makes a lot of sense to me too.
19:56 fglock PerlJam: the plan for MP6 is to use it for bootstrapping more complex versions of MP6 itself
19:57 fglock I don't see how implementing bc would help
19:57 PerlJam fglock: it wouldn't help *you* necessarily, but it would help pmichaud and particle :)
19:58 TimToady one of the goals here is to get the MP6 and the TGE teams to start saying "ooh, shiny" to each other.
19:59 fglock TimToady: that makes sense
20:00 [particle] right now i'm saying, "hey it works on windows! *phew* but what's it good for?"
20:01 fglock in this case, how about implementing TGE in MP6
20:02 [particle] what i'd like is to see a perl6ish syntax to do tree transformations
20:02 [particle] using parrot ast
20:02 TimToady whatever it takes for them to continue converging...
20:02 PerlJam indeed, convergence is good
20:03 pmichaud the problem with "implement TGE in MP6" is that TGE grammars are still heavily PIR based
20:03 pmichaud we're still looking for a good tree transformation syntax
20:03 [particle] yes, of course it's also a goal to make tge grammar less pir-based
20:04 fglock TimToady: does "Matching against non-strings" in S05 could have something to do with tree transformations?
20:04 TimToady I was using "TGE" to refer generically to present and future syntaxes.
20:04 TimToady fglock: yes
20:04 TimToady and in particular binding tree nodes to subsignatures
20:04 pmichaud TimToady: (TGE) Yes, I took it that way :-)
20:05 TimToady that plus decent constructor syntax is about all you need for tree transforms.
20:07 fglock binding tree nodes to subsignatures is like: sub foo ( ::Tree $top (:$left, :$right) ) { ... } ?
20:08 TimToady I think something MP6-ish is very close to what Parrot needs.
20:08 TimToady fglock: yes
20:08 TimToady can also be used with smart matching.
20:09 TimToady (though how that declares things is a good question...)
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20:12 TimToady might need a "when" variant that matches if the parameters to its block bind successfully.
20:12 TimToady maybe "when -> $a, $b {...}" or some such
20:12 TimToady except that's ambiguous with current notation
20:13 TimToady hmm, or maybe it just works if you add an empty block after:
20:14 TimToady when -> $a, $b {...} {}
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20:15 PerlJam I'm still trying to wrap my mind around things.  Someone set me striaght.  "tree transform" sounds like it could be "capturing" and "currying"   And "signatures" sound like "tree node"  or something like that.
20:16 PerlJam I feel like there's an idea on the tip of my brain that just won't come out.
20:16 * [particle] notes PerlJam has a pointy brain
20:17 PerlJam At least it's not smooth!
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20:22 lambdabot araujo is in #perl6, #gentoo-haskell, #haskell and #Haskell. I last heard araujo speak 4h 3s ago.
20:25 fglock TimToady: how about 'when ::Tree $_ (:$left, :$right) {...}'
20:26 fglock 'when hash $_ (:$left, :$right) {...}'
20:27 fglock even: 'when .hash(:$left, :$right) {...}'
20:30 fglock home &
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21:01 stevan_ [particle]: what is bc?
21:02 [particle] basic calculator
21:02 stevan_ ah
21:02 [particle] man bc
21:05 cognominal pointy brain is one of the buddhahoud sign, I think
21:05 cognominal s/houd/hood/
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21:20 pmichaud I have a question about t/01-sanity/07-tailcall.t
21:20 pmichaud 07-tailcall.t has the line:       &baz.goto("param1", "param2");
21:21 pmichaud it's pretty obvious what this does, but is the 'goto' method defined anywhere in the Synopses?
21:22 Limbic_Region grrr - disconnected?
21:22 Limbic_Region pmichaud - cd docs/Perl6/spec; grep goto *.pod
21:22 Limbic_Region there
21:23 Limbic_Region it appears goto is mentioned most in S04
21:23 Limbic_Region Blocks and Statements
21:23 pmichaud I think that's "goto LABEL", not "goto" as a method on a sub
21:23 Limbic_Region there is one mention in S06
21:24 pmichaud I think the S06 mention is compiler-implementation detail
21:24 Limbic_Region right
21:24 * Limbic_Region was just pulling all references to "goto" from the synopses
21:24 [particle] there's a goto sub op reference in S10, but not a definition, and no method syntax mentions
21:25 pmichaud (yes, I already did grep 'goto' on the synopses and apocalypses)
21:25 [particle] ...grep is so last century...
21:25 pmichaud okay, I lied, I did 'ack'
21:25 [particle] :)
21:25 pmichaud I meant 'grep' the verb, not 'grep' the last century tool
21:28 eviltwin_b grep is dead, long live grep?
21:40 Tene http://aram.xkcd.com:8080/​imgsample/warrantyvoid.png
21:40 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/uu3oh
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23:25 Juerd 19:54 < PerlJam> Juerd should enforce some niceness :)
23:25 Juerd PerlJam: You could of course run "top" and contact people who overload feather yourself... :)
23:25 Juerd I didn't limit resources, so non-root can also see this kind of info :)
23:30 wolverian can you see what process it was after the fact?
23:30 wolverian s/you/I/ # :)
23:44 [particle] wolverian: Juerd probably won't see that unless you mention him by name :)
23:44 [particle] so he should catch it now
23:44 wolverian thanks. :)
23:46 Juerd wolverian: No
23:47 Juerd [particle]: It even has to be the first word for it to highlight. I'm mentioned too often :(
23:47 wolverian Juerd, I'll try to be more proactive, then. thanks.
23:47 * Juerd does occasional /lastlog's, though
23:47 [particle] juerd: thanks for the hint :)
23:47 wolverian (or rather, to react faster.)
23:48 Juerd By the way. Is my impression correct that Perl 6 development and discussion are not so active at the moment?
23:49 * Juerd hasn't had much energy for the project, but fears that this is true for many more people
23:49 [particle] ENOAUDREY flag needs to be cleared, i think
23:52 weirdo O_ENOAUDREY
23:52 weirdo :-)

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