Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-11-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Juerd :|
00:01 bonesss joined perl6
00:02 Caelum what about Parrot? how's that coming along?
00:02 [particle] caelum: hey, you're named after my wireless network!
00:03 [particle] parrot's coming along well. we recently had a release, and both design and implementation are ongoing
00:05 qmole joined perl6
00:07 weirdo left perl6
00:19 Caelum cool :)
00:27 obra Juerd: audrey is moving house.
00:27 obra It sounds like things will start clicking along soon
00:27 anatolyv Sounds nice.
00:30 obra "It's almost christmas"
00:30 rintaro_ joined perl6
00:33 Juerd obra: I think Audrey's really great, but the truck number is dangerously low...
00:34 audreyt I thought it's bus
00:34 lambdabot audreyt: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
00:34 audreyt as in bus error
00:34 Juerd audreyt: Same thing.
00:34 obra Busses. Definitely busses
00:34 obra I see no "Truck Error" in my OS ;)
00:34 Juerd Could be trains. Let's hope not.
00:35 * obra ponders Karenina Failure
00:36 anatolyv "Karenina interrupt", perhaps.
00:37 * Juerd goes to bed
00:37 Juerd Good night or whichever localtime, everyone
00:37 anatolyv good night.
00:37 Juerd Watch out for busses, trucks, and trains. And all other big moving things.
00:38 Juerd z
00:38 audreyt packets!
00:38 anatolyv electrons
00:38 obra "that would have to be a big packet"
00:46 * [particle] perks up
00:46 pmichaud I have a question about t/01-sanity/07-tailcall.t
00:46 pmichaud 07-tailcall.t has the line:       &baz.goto("param1", "param2");
00:46 [particle] deja vu
00:46 audreyt [particle]: heya. tree transformation with MP6.
00:46 pmichaud it's pretty obvious what this does, but is the 'goto' method defined anywhere in the Synopses?
00:46 buetow joined perl6
00:47 [particle] audreyt: yes!
00:48 audreyt pmichaud: I believe not; &baz.call(\("param1", "param2")) is the specced form though it doesn't explicitly tailcall
00:48 [particle] pm: i think we've concluded the answer is 'no'. the question becomes, is this syntax legal?
00:49 pmichaud well, the syntax is legal, it's just a question of whether the method exists or not :-)
00:49 audreyt pmichaud: you can safely replace it with a .call and a \() capture literal
00:49 pmichaud audreyt: what should 07-tailcall.t be testing, then?  i.e., what sanity is it checking?
00:49 audreyt or just do &baz("param1", "param2")
00:50 loumz joined perl6
00:50 audreyt oh wait, that can't do
00:50 [particle] do you need capture syntax for Test.pm?
00:50 audreyt [particle]: no
00:50 audreyt pmichaud: it's testing tailcall optimization
00:50 audreyt the idea of .goto is that it's replacing perl5's
00:50 audreyt goto &foo
00:50 [particle] well then, i don't see a need for it in sanity tests
00:50 audreyt which we need a replacement anyway
00:50 pmichaud would we lose anything by taking it out of 01-sanity?
00:50 audreyt nope. please rm ahead.
00:50 [particle] audreyt: goto &$AUTOLOAD is referenced in S10, so if the syntax changes that needs update
00:51 audreyt or mv, as the case may be
00:51 Limbic_Region mv to unspecced ?
00:51 pmichaud audreyt: excellent, many thanks
00:51 audreyt [particle]: not at all.
00:51 audreyt [particle]: look at context again
00:51 audreyt ""Perl 5's goto &$AUTOLOAD..."
00:51 [particle] ah, well that's what i get for not paying attention
00:52 audreyt so, tree transformation.
00:52 * [particle] hopes pmichaud sticks around
00:52 audreyt relevant chapters: S06:1177
00:52 pmichaud I'll stick around if I can -- family is interrupting at times :-|
00:53 audreyt all the way till :1211 or so
00:53 pmichaud but I'll keep the log open :-)
00:53 audreyt that is the matching part. the construction part in MP6 is
00:53 audreyt ::Tree(left => ..., right => ...)
00:53 audreyt fglock advocates that we use explicit :$left in matching part
00:54 audreyt sub f (::Tree(:$left, :$right)) {...}
00:54 audreyt which has this good property that construction and deconstruction looks the same.
00:54 audreyt cf. ML and its descendents
00:54 audreyt which is ideal (designed for) tree transformations, I hope
00:54 audreyt any particular questions about the syntax, semantics or pragmatics?
00:55 [particle] as an aside, i think the syns need s/\t/        /g translation
00:55 pmichaud (kids are calling, bbl)
00:55 audreyt I'll be offline in 1hr too
00:56 hikozaemon joined perl6
00:56 audreyt [particle]: I'll do that.
00:56 * [particle] reads
00:57 bonesss joined perl6
00:58 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
00:58 bonesss joined perl6
01:00 * [particle] wonders if there's an inverse of dor/err
01:00 [particle] $<k> !// say "k = $<k>";
01:00 [particle] ...that looks *ugly*
01:01 hexmode joined perl6
01:02 audreyt uhm
01:02 audreyt $<k>.defined and say "..."
01:02 audreyt or if you are reasonably sure $<k> is an object
01:02 audreyt $<k> && say "..."
01:03 audreyt or you want a \\ operator?
01:04 [particle] (phone)
01:05 rodi joined perl6
01:09 TreyHarris wow, saw a 79K synopsis diff land in my inbox and was wondering if Audrey had decided Perl 6's syntax was waaaay too stable until i opened the mail :)
01:09 eviltwin_b heh
01:09 audreyt :D
01:10 * eviltwin_b tends to assume, from years of experience, that a diff that big is a reformatting diff
01:10 TreyHarris audreyt: i don't have a feather account, how do i get one again?
01:10 lyokato joined perl6
01:10 audreyt TreyHarris: mail your realname to juerd and desired account name
01:10 audreyt TreyHarris: or we can try dcc...
01:11 TreyHarris audreyt: ok, i'm uploading the file to this machine, but it's slow going, it's DV quality video
01:12 audreyt >1G?
01:13 TreyHarris no, 400M about
01:14 audreyt oh. that's fine
01:15 diotalevi So does anyone here have an idea how I can type << in emacs and have « inserted instead? There's an abbrev-mode but it appears to only work if the shortcut is word-like which << isn't.
01:16 Chewie[] I'd almost just do something like A<< to trigger the insertion.
01:16 Chewie[] unless that fails too.
01:16 eviltwin_b take a look at iso-accents-mode
01:17 eviltwin_b you can define your own accents, IIRC
01:19 Tene diotalevi: in vim, I have << mapped to «.  I also have my caps lock key set to act as 'compose', so I can hit caps, <, < anywhere and have « inserted
01:19 Tene setting a compose key is probably the most widely-useful solution
01:20 diotalevi I don't know what a "compose key" is.
01:20 Tene diotalevi: what Desktop Environment are you using?
01:21 diotalevi Windows XP, and Gnome. *Currently* Gnome.
01:22 Tene in gnome, system->preferences->keyboard
01:22 Tene 'Layout Options' tab, 'Compose key position' section
01:22 eviltwin_b with stock iso-accents-mode ~< is « and ~> is »
01:23 diotalevi Aha, thanks eviltwin_b. Strangely, it displays like {<<}, not the « I expected.
01:24 eviltwin_b that suggests it doesn't know how to display «.  you may need to tweak something somewhere but I'm not sure how to do it for fsfemacs (I use xemacs)
01:25 eviltwin_b (and unfortunately xemacs and fsfemacs have diverged quite a bit)
01:25 diotalevi Like I said, it's odd. I can do ucs-insert to say « and that works fine. It displays nicely and everything.
01:27 eviltwin_b hm.  it works as expected here --- but again, xemacs.  and probably with some customization I've forgotten but could dig up
01:27 hikozaemon joined perl6
01:35 silug joined perl6
01:37 audreyt pmichaud: sorry for the timeout - I need to run now :/
01:39 pmichaud audreyt: no problem -- I was afk anyway
01:39 pmichaud we'll catch up another time :-)
01:39 audreyt k.
01:40 pmichaud I'll do more background reading in the meantime
01:46 bonesss joined perl6
01:54 bonesss joined perl6
01:59 diotalevi I just found that the iso-accent-mode thing I was pointed a before is now considered obsolete. Current state of the art is to switch into an "input method" mode where typing ~< and ~> becomes « and » respectively.
01:59 scsibug joined perl6
01:59 diotalevi That's the latin-1 input method anyway.
02:00 diotalevi Or.... with the utf-8 mode then &<< becomes «.
02:00 diotalevi Hmm.
02:01 eviltwin_b not surprising.  emacs' handling of non-ascii is still evolving
02:01 eviltwin_b unfortunately, it also still sucks pretty badly :>
02:02 diotalevi It says it's following rfc1345.
02:03 wolverian shift+altgr+8 inserts « here. :)
02:04 trym__ joined perl6
02:05 diotalevi At least there's an RFC, I guess. So hopefully not just completely random.
02:05 eviltwin_b option-backslash here :>
02:06 trym__ joined perl6
02:11 nipotaway is now known as nipotan
02:17 cjeris left perl6
02:26 [particle] joined perl6
02:28 Psyche^ joined perl6
02:34 justatheory joined perl6
02:42 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
03:00 fayland joined perl6
03:14 bonesss joined perl6
03:14 bonesss joined perl6
03:30 trym__ joined perl6
03:39 [particle] left perl6
03:55 [particle] joined perl6
04:57 mdiep joined perl6
05:08 reZo joined perl6
05:13 mdiep joined perl6
05:42 jabbot joined perl6
05:46 gaal diotalevi: see docs/quickref/unicode in the pugs tree
06:08 iblechbot joined perl6
06:15 BooK joined perl6
06:19 baest joined perl6
06:20 kanru joined perl6
06:21 baest_ joined perl6
06:22 baest_ is now known as baest
06:22 Southen joined perl6
06:24 diotalevi_ joined perl6
06:26 diotalevi_ Are there any unicode operators other than «, », and ¥? Why is "zip" using the yen symbol anyway? It seems weird that it's using a currency symbol.
06:28 Tene well... « is "much less than" in mathematics.
06:29 Tene just as < is "less than".
06:29 Tene So is it weird to use a mathematical comparison operator for quoting lists?
06:29 TimToady actually, that's a separate character in Unicode: ≪
06:30 Tene Hmm.
06:30 TimToady ¥ is used only for its picture of a zipper.
06:30 Tene What is « then?
06:30 TimToady french/german quote
06:31 Tene Okay then, is it weird to use quotes for -«(list) ?
06:32 mjk joined perl6
06:32 TimToady no weirder than using $ for scalars
06:32 Tene ... yes, that's a very good comparison.  Much clearer than mine.
06:39 mjk joined perl6
06:39 diotalevi_ joined perl6
06:39 iblechbot joined perl6
06:39 jabbot joined perl6
06:39 mdiep joined perl6
06:39 reZo joined perl6
06:39 [particle] joined perl6
06:39 fayland joined perl6
06:39 scsibug joined perl6
06:39 lyokato joined perl6
06:39 rodi joined perl6
06:39 hexmode joined perl6
06:39 cls_bsd joined perl6
06:39 gnuvince joined perl6
06:39 sri__ joined perl6
06:39 polettix joined perl6
06:39 norageek joined perl6
06:39 prism joined perl6
06:39 ashleyb joined perl6
06:39 mj41 joined perl6
06:39 xinming joined perl6
06:39 avar joined perl6
06:39 lisppaste3 joined perl6
06:39 ayrnieu joined perl6
06:39 kane-xs joined perl6
06:39 lambdabot joined perl6
06:39 TimToady joined perl6
06:39 Chewie[] joined perl6
06:39 bcorn joined perl6
06:39 spo0nman joined perl6
06:39 nekokak joined perl6
06:39 spoop joined perl6
06:39 frankg joined perl6
06:39 rafl joined perl6
06:39 GeJ joined perl6
06:39 Debolaz joined perl6
06:39 pdcawley joined perl6
06:39 SCalimlim joined perl6
06:39 perlbot joined perl6
06:39 jrockway joined perl6
06:39 lumi joined perl6
06:39 pnu joined perl6
06:39 Maddingue joined perl6
06:39 Shabble joined perl6
06:39 rafl_ joined perl6
06:39 bennymack joined perl6
06:39 Ikarus joined perl6
06:39 cj joined perl6
06:39 knewt joined perl6
06:39 cookys joined perl6
06:39 integral joined perl6
06:39 revdiablo joined perl6
06:39 jdv79 joined perl6
06:39 cmeyer joined perl6
06:39 shadowspar joined perl6
06:39 Yappo joined perl6
06:39 mugwump joined perl6
06:39 nine_ joined perl6
06:39 rgs joined perl6
06:39 wilx joined perl6
06:39 autark joined perl6
06:39 LCamel joined perl6
06:39 meppl joined perl6
06:39 takanori_ joined perl6
06:39 statico joined perl6
06:47 diotalevi_ Thanks all y'all for those explanations of Yen, etc.
07:03 Daveman joined perl6
07:13 rjoseph joined perl6
07:14 marmic joined perl6
07:57 devogon joined perl6
08:01 H0LE joined perl6
08:40 keving joined perl6
08:42 keving is now known as meto1
08:43 meto1 left perl6
08:50 Vspirit joined perl6
08:53 drrho joined perl6
08:53 Vspirit from the perl6 "So Perl6 will be exactly like every other compiled language: it will be possible to protect your source code, but only from those who don't know how to run a disassembler." and I'm wondering, to what degree, will disassembling a compiled perl program be easier because of parrot, than say disassembling a C program ?
09:02 reZo joined perl6
09:02 anatolyv Vspirit: perhaps about as easy as disassembling a compiled Java program.
09:04 Vspirit anatolyv: yeah my guess is the same, but thats just it, only a logical guess, would be nice to know if anyone have had the skill and time to put in some proper research to clarify on subject, as that would make it an easier sell to the powers that be if confirmed.
09:14 andara joined perl6
09:20 araujo @tell Limbic_Region Thanks!
09:20 lambdabot Consider it noted.
09:35 andara joined perl6
09:40 H0LE left perl6
09:47 gaal clkao: ping
09:47 rgs joined perl6
09:49 Maddingue joined perl6
09:55 andara_ joined perl6
09:58 andara joined perl6
09:59 clkao gaal: pong
10:04 ruoso joined perl6
10:11 buetow joined perl6
10:13 reZo is now known as phpError
10:13 svnbot6 r14849 | andara++ | [runpugs]
10:13 svnbot6 r14849 | andara++ | Proper closing of slave filehandles. Should stop running out of them.
10:16 svnbot6 r14850 | andara++ | [runpugs]
10:16 svnbot6 r14850 | andara++ | -New user interface with continuous screen presence and other goodies -- "Ajax du pauvre"
10:16 svnbot6 r14850 | andara++ | Try it out at http://feather.perl6.nl:8080/runpugs/
10:16 lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
10:22 andara ?seen anatolyv
10:22 lambdabot anatolyv is in #perl6. I last heard anatolyv speak 1h 19m 23s ago.
10:33 Juerd andara: It does weird things when I try to input an ampersand (&)
10:33 Juerd andara: And I think development version may be a better default
10:34 Juerd andara: I'm amazed at how this thing works. This ajaxified version is really much better :)
10:34 Juerd I don't seem to be able to input an open paren
10:35 Juerd Ah, & behaves like the up arrow
10:35 Juerd And ( like down
10:36 trym__ joined perl6
10:38 andara Juerd: oops, that sounds bad. I catch the arrow keys, but your keyboard must have a different mapping or something
10:39 gaal andara++
10:39 gaal this is teriffic
10:39 andara Juerd: the ajaxy version is 'devel' as I haven't tested it much. Seems to work on FF on linux, Camino on Mac and IE on windows
10:39 gaal http://feather.perl6.nl/%7Eandara/runpugs/ contains contradictory claims about command history :-)
10:39 lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
10:40 andara ha, a doc bug as well :-)
10:40 andara gaal: does command history work for you?
10:40 gaal yes
10:40 gaal ff/windows
10:41 andara cool
10:41 gaal :q should probably not start a new sessino immediately though
10:41 Juerd andara: My keyboard uses dvorak mapping, but that's exactly the same as US qwerty for & and (
10:42 andara Juerd: what happens when you use the arrows?
10:42 Juerd andara: Works perlfectly
10:42 gaal btw, the ajax version can probably be moosed to close the pugs when the browser window is closed
10:45 kensanata` joined perl6
10:45 andara catching "window close" events is tricky. Anyway, that's not a big issue as the server cleans up every now and then
10:46 fglock joined perl6
10:47 andara Juerd: I can reproduce your bug. I'll try to figure out what causes it
10:50 rgs joined perl6
11:06 fglock joined perl6
11:12 andara Juerd: I fixed it for FF, but by breaking it for IE/win. FF/Mac is not quite right too. *sigh*
11:15 andara have to go to $work now. bbl.
11:28 Richar1 joined perl6
11:29 Richar1 Hello
11:32 elmex joined perl6
12:10 chris2 joined perl6
12:18 mako132 joined perl6
12:48 phpError joined perl6
12:49 Richar1 left perl6
13:02 Limbic_Region joined perl6
13:17 rodi joined perl6
13:35 gnuvince joined perl6
13:38 ofer1 joined perl6
13:42 kolibrie joined perl6
13:58 mako132 joined perl6
14:01 mako132 joined perl6
14:01 andara joined perl6
14:11 nipotan is now known as nipotaway
14:19 bonesss joined perl6
14:43 c6rbon joined perl6
14:44 elmex joined perl6
14:52 chris2 joined perl6
14:53 kensanata` is now known as kensanata
15:07 svnbot6 r14851 | andara++ | [runpugs] changed devel version URL
15:07 trym_ joined perl6
15:08 iblechbot joined perl6
15:08 svnbot6 r14852 | andara++ | [runpugs]
15:08 svnbot6 r14852 | andara++ | "ajaxified" runpugs:
15:08 svnbot6 r14852 | andara++ | -fixed ( & -disabling JS bug
15:08 svnbot6 r14852 | andara++ | -better cross-platform JS support (command history, block backspace on prompt)
15:08 svnbot6 r14852 | andara++ | FF/Camino on OS X still have a few quirks, Safari is quite broken.
15:13 cjeris joined perl6
15:16 kanru joined perl6
15:32 thepler joined perl6
15:35 idiotmax joined perl6
15:48 xinming_ joined perl6
15:48 vel joined perl6
15:51 idiotmax joined perl6
16:23 sri_ joined perl6
16:26 pmichaud another pugs 01-sanity test question
16:27 pmichaud 07-ref.t has a '.ref' method on items, but afaict '.ref' is only mentioned once in A04
16:28 fglock pmichaud: .ref is obsolete afaik, may use .WHAT instead
16:28 pmichaud does the pugs test need .ref?
16:29 ruoso joined perl6
16:30 fglock Test.pm seems to use .WHAT only
16:30 pmichaud ah, good
16:30 pmichaud so I just need to change 07-ref.t
16:30 pmichaud or update it
16:30 pmichaud many thanks
16:32 fglock np
16:41 araujo joined perl6
16:46 Limbic_Region araujo - did you get my @tell msg from yesterday
16:46 lambdabot Limbic_Region: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:46 Limbic_Region @messages
16:46 lambdabot araujo said 7h 25m 44s ago: Thanks!
16:46 Limbic_Region ah
16:46 Limbic_Region good
16:49 mdiep_ joined perl6
16:49 xinming_ is now known as xinming
16:52 xinming joined perl6
16:52 araujo Limbic_Region, yeah :-)
16:53 Limbic_Region araujo - so after you got the extra-libs everything just worked right?
16:57 araujo Limbic_Region, next to test really
16:57 araujo bit a busy :-(
16:57 araujo but i think that should do it...
17:04 Limbic_Region araujo - there is likely 1 test that will hang on your smoke
17:05 Limbic_Region t/perl5/modify_inside_p5_p6.t
17:06 Limbic_Region on Win32, I need to hit ctrl-z for it continue past that test - presumably ctrl-d would do it on *nix
17:09 HiTech69 joined perl6
17:12 blokhead joined perl6
17:12 neonse joined perl6
17:23 bernhard joined perl6
17:34 justatheory joined perl6
17:43 stevan__ joined perl6
17:50 baest joined perl6
17:53 blokhead left perl6
17:55 rodi joined perl6
17:57 lichtkind joined perl6
18:00 sweinig_ joined perl6
18:03 justatheory joined perl6
18:05 justatheory joined perl6
18:08 lisppaste3 joined perl6
18:16 snowstalker joined perl6
18:20 buetow joined perl6
18:39 polettix joined perl6
18:44 ashleyb joined perl6
18:44 justatheory joined perl6
19:06 theorbtwo joined perl6
19:23 penk joined perl6
19:36 anatolyv joined perl6
20:00 fglock left perl6
20:07 awwaiid joined perl6
20:24 buetow joined perl6
20:30 reZo joined perl6
20:33 chris2 joined perl6
20:34 miyagawa joined perl6
20:41 foo\ joined perl6
20:47 ashelyb_ joined perl6
20:50 Aankhen`` joined perl6
20:57 coumbes joined perl6
21:16 Tainted` joined perl6
21:16 chris2_ joined perl6
21:17 Tainted` can i use this chan for perl help?
21:17 PerlJam Are you using perl6?
21:17 Limbic_Region Tainted` - not really
21:17 Limbic_Region Tainted` - you likely want #perl
21:17 Tainted` know any good servers i can get perl help?
21:17 Tainted` ok
21:17 PerlJam try #perl or #perlhelp
21:17 Tainted` thx
21:17 Tainted` left perl6
21:17 Limbic_Region welcome
21:18 trym_ joined perl6
21:39 bonesss joined perl6
21:49 larsen_ joined perl6
21:49 buetow joined perl6
22:08 reZo joined perl6
22:12 cjeris left perl6
22:16 Limbic_Region joined perl6
22:42 rodi joined perl6
23:00 ayrnieu joined perl6
23:07 gnuvince` joined perl6
23:09 gnuvince joined perl6
23:28 neonse left perl6
23:34 trym_ joined perl6
23:54 miyagawa joined perl6
23:55 kanru joined perl6

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo