Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-12-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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06:25 meppl guten morgen
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06:45 jrockway hmm, pugs from svn seems to be dying on my debian machine at "Setup: cannot satisfy dependency network-any"
06:45 jrockway it also seems upset that the revision number of my checkout is "3", because I only svk mirror'd HEAD
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09:35 mayur_ diff betw USE and REQUIRE?
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09:40 broquaint The difference, mayur_, is that require is called at run-time and use is called at compile-time (basically).
09:41 broquaint See. perldoc -f use & perldoc -f require for more info, also, #perl.
09:41 buubot See: Type 'perldoc -f use' in your shell or go to http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/use.html
09:41 lambdabot Title: use - perldoc.perl.org
09:41 * broquaint kicks buubot
09:43 mayur_ Thanks broquaint , lambdabot
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10:18 svnbot6 r14859 | kudra++ | This week
10:21 svnbot6 r14860 | kudra++ | Small change to template for yaml file
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10:27 svnbot6 r14861 | kudra++ | Also adding my quick instruction list to the repository; someone else may need it someday
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10:40 ludan re
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10:54 svnbot6 r14862 | fglock++ | MP6-Parrot - added infix:<==>, infix:<!=>
11:00 dmq @tell audreyt ftp://ftp.csx.cam.ac.uk/pub/software/programming/pcre/Testing/pcre-7.0-RC1.tar.bz2
11:00 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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11:56 Juerd Feather users, don't forget to re-start your custom apaches!
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14:07 Limbic_Region salutations all
14:11 dmq hi L~R
14:11 dmq thanks for mentioning my little challenge.
14:13 Limbic_Region no worries dmq
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14:14 Limbic_Region I also mentioned it over on #perl but not on irc.perl.org
14:14 Limbic_Region while I think pmichaud and fglock are probably both up to the challenge, not sure either has the time
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14:31 pmichaud challenge ?
14:31 svnbot6 r14863 | szabgab++ | Give file name on build failure
14:31 Limbic_Region yes, just a sec
14:32 eviltwin_b <Limbic_Region> http://use.perl.org/~demerphq/journal/31796
14:32 lambdabot Title: Journal of demerphq (2831)
14:32 Limbic_Region pmichaud - http://use.perl.org/~demerphq/journal/31796
14:32 lambdabot Title: Journal of demerphq (2831)
14:32 Limbic_Region eviltwin_b beat me to it
14:32 pmichaud mmmmmm
14:32 Limbic_Region I had mentioned yesterday it would be great if the winner of the metre of beer was PGE or P::C::R
14:33 eviltwin_b behold the power of scrollback :)
14:33 pmichaud well, PGE really depends on parrot at the moment, so that'd take a bit of work
14:34 pmichaud but it's a terrific idea and challenge
14:35 Limbic_Region pmichaud - I don't think the dependency on parrot is an issue
14:35 Limbic_Region or rather
14:36 Limbic_Region I don't think demerphq would squabble over parrot being required to support the alternate engine
14:36 Limbic_Region the fact that it may not be "easy" to do on the other hand....well that's why I said I wasn't sure you had the time
14:36 pmichaud right, I was only thinking that it would involve additional work
14:36 pmichaud not that parrot would disqualify the solution :-)
14:37 Juerd Is embedding parrot hard then?
14:37 Limbic_Region PGE is currently written in C, PIR, or a mixture of the two?  My recollection was original was in C and current is in PIR
14:37 pmichaud that's correct -- PGE is in PIR
14:37 pmichaud (originally started out in C, but switched to PIR)
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14:39 Limbic_Region Juerd - the only attempt at embedding parrot that I know of is mod_parrot by jhorwitz and I think he has been away from the project for some time
14:39 Limbic_Region The last message to the list was Jan of 2006
14:39 pmichaud afk # support call
14:40 Juerd Limbic_Region: Right, but wasn't parrot designed to be embeddable, from the beginning? :)
14:40 fglock Limbic_Region: there is Inline::Parrot
14:41 Juerd fglock: Oh, cool
14:41 Juerd Heh, can a regex engine be written in Perl 5 itself? Then bridging to PGE should be doable :)
14:41 fglock Inline::Parrot needs an update to current parrot
14:42 fglock PCR is written in Perl 5
14:42 Limbic_Region the 3 most likely candidates I had for winning the challenge were japhy, pmichaud, and fglock
14:43 Limbic_Region though that was based off skill and familiarity and not time
14:43 * Limbic_Region has no idea who might have the time to take up the challenge
14:44 dmq No, unfortunately a regex engine cant be written purely in perl5.
14:44 Limbic_Region Inline::Parrot was last updated 2 years ago
14:45 dmq However, i do believe that you could do what would be more or less the empty subclass test with XS that calls back into perl.
14:45 fglock Limbic_Region: for me it's a matter of priorities rather than plain "time"
14:45 dmq Its just that to implement a regexp engine you have to do c.
14:46 dmq Although i imagine somebody suitably creative could write an XS module that allowed you to write arbitrary engines in perl.
14:46 dmq that in itself would be a cool hack.
14:46 fglock dmq: that would be nice
14:46 Limbic_Region dmq - you mean to do a p5 plug-in regexp engine you have to do c?
14:47 dmq its mostly a question of how the regexp engine / perl core api is written.
14:47 dmq currently yes l~r.
14:47 dmq as i just said, i didnt do the full glue to allow somebody to do it in perl.
14:48 Limbic_Region ok.  I didn't think you were implying any RE for any language had to be done in C, but that's the literal way of interpreting what you said
14:48 dmq thats something that can be written anytime.
14:48 dmq wheras there are other things that if we want them have to be done before 5.10 is out.
14:48 dmq So ive focused on those.
14:48 dmq :-)
14:48 Limbic_Region for anyone with there ear to the ground (iow follows p5p), is 5.10 guestimated to be released Easter 07?
14:48 rgs ENOTUX
14:49 dmq the ground rumbled x-mas/new year recently. but rgs can say for sure...
14:49 rgs well, there's a small list of things to be closed
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14:50 rgs (of difficult things)
14:51 dmq l~r it essentially comes down to this: a regexp engine has to be able to create a regexp_engine structure, and the complie callback defined therein has to be able to return a regexp structure. which means some perl/c glue interface that can be written by pretty much anybody, doesnt need me directly.
14:51 Limbic_Region heh
14:52 * Limbic_Region suspects dmq's definition of anybody isn't quite the same as his
14:53 dmq 'anybody' meaning 'does not require a perl5 regex engine internals specialist to do'
14:53 Limbic_Region which is a very good thing and kudos to you
14:54 * Limbic_Region wonders if we will get audreyt back this week
14:54 dmq Therefore meaning anybody that can write fairly straightforward XS. Which from what i recall is you. :-)
14:54 Limbic_Region dmq - um, no.  I can write fairly straightforward Inline::C but you must have forgotten admonishing me for using C types instead of the perl API
14:55 * Limbic_Region is sure with a week or two of focus the could get enough perlguts under his belt to fool someone into thinking he knew what he was doing though
14:55 dmq You just have to push yourself a little harder and have a copy of perlapi open.
14:56 * eviltwin_b can write XS that makes perl leak references and dump core, does that count? :>
14:56 dmq heh
14:57 eviltwin_b (and I have.  cyrus, anyone?  still don't get what's going on there but havenever had the time to mindmeld with the api)
15:00 fglock there is something started in http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/perl5/re-override and re-override-PCRE
15:00 lambdabot Title: Revision 14863: /perl5/re-override
15:00 fglock dmq: maybe it just works
15:01 dmq yeah, thats an attempt at the same thing based on the older broken api.
15:02 dmq it was kinda doomed by the api unfortunately.
15:02 dmq as the api meant that perl would try to use the current engine for every regex it encountered, regardless as to whether it was compiled by perl itself or whatever.
15:03 dmq the association was regexp -> intrepreter -> engine  instead of intrepreter -> regexp -> engine
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15:05 Juerd rgs: Should I report the uselessness of encoding.pm as a bug?
15:05 Juerd It's not really a bug, but the way it works means that it's useful to very few people
15:06 * Juerd doesn't have a suggestion to fix this in a backwards compatible way :(
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15:06 dmq do you have a suggestion to fix it in a forward compatible way tho?
15:07 Limbic_Region after reading perldelta in the 5.9.x branch, there are several backwards compatible breakages
15:07 dmq Cause if you do then i think it should be considered.
15:07 rgs Juerd: the problems with encoding are known
15:07 rgs Juerd: that's why I won't make it lexical actually
15:07 rgs it should be split in two instead
15:08 rgs Limbic_Region: not that many
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15:10 dmq rgs: would it be feasable to make a wrapper that does the split?
15:11 rgs no, thats' a semantic split
15:11 Limbic_Region rgs - not sure what constitutes many, but 5.9.0 = 6, 5.9.1 = 2, 5.9.2 = 2, 5.9.3 = 6, 5.9.4 = 4 for a total of 20
15:11 dmq i just meant that maybe a wrapper could handle the lexicalization.
15:12 Limbic_Region rgs - I am not saying that's a bad thing btw
15:12 rgs Limbic_Region: many breakages
15:12 dmq L~R: what do those numbers mean and where did you get them.
15:12 Limbic_Region dmq - incompatible changes
15:12 Limbic_Region dmq - from perldelta 5.9.0 .. 5.9.4
15:12 dmq breakage of workarounds of broken behaviour imo are fair game in a major release.
15:12 rgs the section named incompatible changes in perl*delta.pod
15:13 * Limbic_Region isn't suggesting that they are a bad thing - actually quite the opposite
15:13 rgs example : A bareword argument to chdir() is now recognized as a file handle.
15:13 rgs Earlier releases interpreted the bareword as a directory name.
15:13 Juerd rgs: Okay, thanks
15:14 Limbic_Region people who rely on broken or undocumented behavior shouldn't be allowed to cry when their code breaks
15:14 * dmq encourage Juerd to post something that does work
15:14 Limbic_Region people write code targeting a perl not written in the last decade shouldn't be allowed to cry when the current perl no longer works for them
15:14 Limbic_Region s/write/who write/
15:15 Juerd dmq: I don't know how to fix it without breaking existing things. The behaviour makes no sense, but there are people who use it and depend on it.
15:15 * Limbic_Region does have compassion for the people who stay one rev behind and have to constantly update their code in order to upgrade though
15:16 Juerd dmq: encoding::split is on CPAN, it solves the immediate problem by doing ugly things :)
15:16 Limbic_Region or for shops where mgmt forces them to stay in the dark ages for long periods of time and then changes their mind and forces them to upgrade to current over night
15:16 dmq well the issue is how do you provide an alternative without preventing the older problematic code from working.
15:17 Juerd dmq: It requires a discussion of syntax.
15:17 dmq so if you can reimplement the broken behaviour out of the un-broken behaviour...
15:17 Juerd But "use encoding STRING" can't be it. In fact, the syntax of encoding.pm is so irregular, that I think we have a problem
15:17 Juerd As "encoding" is a nice name :)
15:20 Juerd Implementation is a matter of copy/pasting the parts from encoding.pm; Re-implementing the old interface is then a matter of using what you made, through a wrapper that knows the @_ order of the old thing.
15:20 Juerd And you need to know if STDERR matters.
15:22 svnbot6 r14864 | fglock++ | rm v6-MiniPerl6-MO/ (devel proceeds in v6-MiniPerl6/)
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15:34 pmurias Limbic_Region: re: parrot embeding also done by chromatic
15:36 Limbic_Region pmurias - really?  I thought he worked on extending parrot by embedding other languages (primarily C via NCI) in it (not the other way around)
15:38 pmurias it is called Embed::Parrot(or something similiar) and lives in the parrot repo
15:39 Limbic_Region cool
15:39 * Limbic_Region should follow parrot more closely
15:41 pmurias regarding Inline::Parrot the version on CPAN uses IPC instead of the embbeding interface
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15:45 pmurias you find in /misc/pX/Common/Inline-Parrot for a incomplete attempt at parrot i was working on
15:47 pmurias although chromatic's version is probably much more up to date
15:48 Limbic_Region yeah, I was just checking it out - it lives in ext/
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15:57 pmurias s/you find in/you can look in/
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16:25 audreyt from #p5p:
16:25 lambdabot audreyt: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:25 audreyt 17:21 <@audreyt> I need to sleep.
16:25 audreyt 17:21 <@audreyt> and here is my entry:
16:25 audreyt 17:21 <@audreyt> http://perlcabal.org/~audreyt/tmp/re-engine-y2k-0.01.tar.gz
16:25 audreyt 17:21 <@audreyt> enjoy :)
16:25 audreyt 17:21 <@dmq> i think you win. :-)
16:25 audreyt g'nite :) &
16:25 Limbic_Region wow
16:26 audreyt Limbic_Region++ # reminds me of it
16:26 audreyt it took longer than I hoped :)
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17:12 xinming audreyt: ping
17:14 xinming @tell audreyt I ever heard that you told someone that there are four languages which are worth learning... I read it on your blog. But I can't find the answer now, I searched all your blogs last year, and It seems that all comments are gone. So could you please tell me again?
17:14 lambdabot Consider it noted.
17:15 xinming @tell audreyt thanks.
17:15 lambdabot Consider it noted.
17:16 nothingmuch xinming: my take on it: ASM/C (doesn't really matter which), haskell/scheme
17:16 nothingmuch i'm guessing something like prolog too
17:16 nothingmuch but i dunno it
17:16 nothingmuch dunno what a 4th would be
17:16 nothingmuch but forth seems fitting ;-)
17:17 xinming nothingmuch: perl... :-)
17:17 xinming In fact, Here, someone suggested me that I should learn python...
17:18 xinming and I read the documentation... I didn't find any special in python compared with perl. It seems, that all thing that python have, perl does it in a convenient way...
17:18 xinming :-)
17:19 xinming What I like in python which might be, python use . for method call. :-P
17:19 nothingmuch i found python uninpiring
17:19 nothingmuch uninspiring
17:19 xinming why people suggested me python is all because of django...
17:19 nothingmuch perl is not really a fundamental language
17:20 nothingmuch but it's a nice wrap up of some of the good parts of all of what I mentioned
17:20 wolverian perl has culture, CPAN and linguistics. it's an experience too.
17:20 nothingmuch yes, of course
17:20 xinming and, when I saw the template for django, It's like another TT to me. :-P
17:20 nothingmuch wolverian++ # good points
17:20 xinming So, i gave up.
17:21 xinming and then, my turn to persuade him to use perl. :-)
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17:22 xinming at least, most people say python has better oo support. And I didn't find it either.
17:22 eviltwin_b it does (compared to perl5 at least) but that's nto actually saying much
17:23 eviltwin_b think it does a slightly better job with the notion of class variables
17:23 nothingmuch xinming: i think perl 5's OO support is actually underappreciated
17:23 xinming hmm, well, to me, perl is a blessed hash. and in python, It's a blessed dictionary.
17:24 nothingmuch because perl lets you twiddle with the metamodel very freely
17:24 nothingmuch perl's problem is that it has an insane metamodel though ;-)
17:24 nothingmuch stashes and special arrays and stuff like that ^_^
17:24 xinming and, the most obvious thing is...
17:24 xinming I said, I can use $a.$b
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17:25 xinming very convenient... how can we do this in python... the one whom tried to persuade me shuts up. :-P
17:25 xinming though, I know python can, But I like the handy grammer.
17:26 xinming But, one thing I think python is great is. It's speed.
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17:29 nothingmuch really?
17:29 nothingmuch i always thought it was notoriously slow
17:30 jrockway http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
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17:30 lambdabot Title: The Computer Language Shootout Benchmarks
17:30 jrockway perl wins in a lot of those
17:30 jrockway i mean, not compared to C or java obviouly
17:30 jrockway but among php/python/ruby/perl, perl is usually fastest
17:30 jrockway perl uses *a lot* of memory though
17:30 jrockway not bad for a "dead language" though
17:30 rgs both speed and memory usage will be improved by 5.10.0
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17:30 jrockway yup
17:31 jrockway demperhq's regex engine work is awesome
17:31 rgs and Nicholas' shrinking of internal structures
17:31 Juerd 18:30 < jrockway> i mean, not compared to C or java obviouly
17:32 Juerd It's not obvious that Java would win from Perl.
17:32 Juerd For many real world applications, I expect Java to be far inferior to Perl, in terms of performance.
17:32 Juerd It's good for applications without user interface, that don't do any text processing. And that's quite a niche :)
17:33 xinming But people prefer money.. so, many people like java. :-P
17:33 Juerd Sure, Java is rather popular in commercial environments.
17:34 xinming I ever went to the site on language benmachmark.
17:34 jrockway java has jit
17:34 Juerd (Including universities, mind you!)
17:34 Juerd jrockway: So?
17:34 broquaint Java doesn't process text it shifts paradigms with XML!
17:34 Juerd broquaint: :\
17:34 xinming It seems. lisp is really attractive on both speed and memory usage. :-P
17:34 jrockway walking an optree is slower than directly executing code on the processor
17:34 jrockway getting data from registers, etc.
17:35 broquaint Did I get my terminology wrong, Juerd? ;)
17:35 jrockway i imagine parrot will give a good speed boost to most dynamic languages
17:35 jrockway (i've heard it has, but i haven't been worried about speed personally)
17:36 xinming I don't think so. :-)  every release for software... the "author" will claim that there will be a better performace for the new version.
17:36 xinming But I never see it happened... :-P
17:36 Juerd broquaint: No. You got everything right, and according to reality, which sucks.
17:37 Juerd jrockway: Sure, that's very nice for the raw operations, like maths.
17:37 Juerd jrockway: But it means very little when it comes to text processing or real time interaction.
17:42 jrockway true
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19:51 svnbot6 r14865 | pmichaud++ | '.goto' in t/01-sanity/07-tailcall.t isn't defined in Synopses,
19:51 svnbot6 r14865 | pmichaud++ | moving to t/unspecced/ so that we can better use t/01-sanity/
19:51 svnbot6 r14865 | pmichaud++ | in perl6/Parrot.
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20:13 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
20:13 perlbot Paste your code at http://sial.org/pbot/perl and #perl will be able to view it
20:13 lambdabot Title: sial.org Pastebot - pasteling
20:15 jrockway wow: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/613
20:15 lambdabot Title: Fold Must Fold! | Lambda the Ultimate
20:15 jrockway removing map or fold "improves" a language?
20:17 gnuvince jrockway: fold often confuses programmers, so it's not an efficient way to communicate what a program does.
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20:18 gnuvince and in any case, that's an April 1st post.
20:18 jrockway ahh, ok
20:18 jrockway i am writing some elisp and was really wishing for fold, and that's what google gave me :)
20:19 jrockway i like functional programming, because i can usually ponder it for a few minutes and then type a line of code
20:19 jrockway much better than the don't-ponder-and-write-100-lines approach
20:19 jrockway maybe
20:19 jrockway it's also a good distraction from my PHP-infected day job :)
20:20 TSa HaloO
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20:23 pmurias jrockway: i enables you to reuse the keyword for something else ;)
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