Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-12-14

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:05 fridim What can I run like perl6 program with the pugs etch debian package ?
00:05 fridim use v6-pugs v6-alpha seem to not work with this version of pugs
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06:23 froggero1 anyone know anything about hmac md5?
06:25 gaal @tell fridim try the latest pugs from the source at http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/
06:25 lambdabot Consider it noted.
06:25 froggero1 bascially, I took the javascript hmac md5 script from http://pajhome.org.uk/crypt/md5 (md5.js) and the values that it's returning compared to http://backpan.cpan.org/authors/Clinton_Wong/ 's hmac::md5 module don't match up
06:26 froggero1 can't figure out why... I have a random key that gets generated, and used in the hex, and that's getting transferred the same... putting it in the same order, supposed to be using the same protocol... maybe one of them is out or something?
06:27 gaal froggero1: I don't have time to look at this myself right now, but one lead is to make sure there isn't some bogus unicode conversion going on
06:27 froggero1 good idea... I know the java is in ascii, will check the mod
06:28 froggero1 not much in the readme... http://backpan.cpan.org/authors/C​linton_Wong/HMAC-MD5-0.02.readme
06:28 froggero1 love it
06:29 froggero1 in the perdoc:
06:29 froggero1 SYNOPSIS
06:29 froggero1        use HMAC::MD5;
06:29 froggero1        hex($string, $key) returns a 16 byte digest in binary form.
06:29 froggero1        hexhash($string, $key) returns a 16 byte digest as printable hex.
06:29 gaal Try out Digest-MD5
06:30 froggero1 the javascript uses hmac though
06:31 froggero1 the front end for this is a website... which is in perl, but i'm using javascript to turn the form input values into a md5 hash based on the password and a random key.. unless there's a better way to do this (i don't know enough about javascripting at the moment)
06:32 froggero1 i tried digest-md5 but the values were out as well.. that's what led me to hmac in the first place
06:32 froggero1 afk smoke
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06:40 froggero1 aight, I gotta go... but if anyone thinks of another way to do this... send me an email -> adam [at] talsma [dot] ca
06:40 froggero1 cheers guys, cya :)
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12:28 rgs chemical programming !! http://www.inria.fr/rrrt/rr-5743.html
12:28 lambdabot Title: RR-5743 : Generalized Multisets for Chemical Programming
12:28 rgs not enough paradigms yet
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12:35 rgs some slides:  http://upp.lami.univ-evry.fr/Doc​uments/Radenac-Slides-UPP'04.pdf
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13:48 integral cool.
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13:54 Limbic_Region smokin
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15:28 svnbot6 r14891 | andara++ | [runpugs]
15:28 svnbot6 r14891 | andara++ | First sketch for preloading Pugs sessions.
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16:03 fglock v6-alpha-0.016 uploaded to CPAN
16:05 svnbot6 r14892 | fglock++ | v6-alpha-0.016 in CPAN
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16:24 kolibrie fglock: any changes in v6-alpha, or were you just bringing CPAN up-to-date?
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16:30 fglock kolibrie: this is just an upload from the repo; the CPAN version was incompatible with one of the prerequisites and no longer worked
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16:30 fglock the errors you pointed out are known errors :(
16:30 kolibrie fglock: that's what I thought - but just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything
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16:31 kolibrie fglock: it still seems that I can run my grammars with PCR, even though I can't run extract_pghpw.t with prove6
16:32 kolibrie so I don't know if I did something weird in extract_pghpw.t, or what
16:33 kolibrie fglock: MiniPerl::Grammar is being very helpful as a grammar template
16:34 kolibrie and so far I haven't found any speed issues
16:36 weinig is now known as weinig|food
16:42 fglock kolibrie: MP6 is much more stable than v6, because it depends on no external modules. It's also fully tested, as it depends on itself for compiling
16:43 kolibrie fglock: it just doesn't have inheritance
16:47 nwc10 oh, yes, for 6-on-5, do we need a way to inject new 'core' subs into every namespace?
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16:50 gaal too bad AUTOLOAD won't work for that
16:50 gaal but wouldn't UNIVERSAL?
16:51 nwc10 need to con the tokeniser
16:51 nwc10 to do it properly
16:51 nwc10 so that they're not barewords
16:51 nwc10 but my question was, do we need it?
16:52 fglock nwc10: the current implementation wraps the core subs, so that it can control the parameters/dispatch
16:53 gaal maybe a switch to mean "there are no barewords here, everything's a function
16:53 gaal "?
16:53 nwc10 I don't know. Asking questions of me isn't necessarily a help here.
16:53 nwc10 I was more asking questions of Perl 6
16:53 gaal gotta go for a bit
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17:18 fridim Hi there.
17:18 lambdabot fridim: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:18 fridim nice bot
17:28 TimToady nwc10: if I was going to add something like that, I'd generalize it slightly to a lexically scoped macro mechanism on about the level of C macros.  That would give you much of the power of source filtering without most of the problems.
17:29 nwc10 TimToady: ah OK. I was thinking more in terms of "what can't 6-on-5 do well"
17:30 TimToady A: mostly, things that require source filtering... :)
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17:34 Limbic_Region TimToady - perl 5 question.  Do you know why goto $code_ref; behaves as if you said goto &$code_ref; but performs way better?
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17:37 TimToady no, I don't.  I didn't add that functionality.
17:37 TimToady I wonder if it bypasses the code that strips the old @_ off and shoves the new one onto the stack...
17:38 Limbic_Region TimToady - that's the part I was wondering about too
17:38 TimToady might be someone was trying to make tail recursion faster.
17:39 TimToady just guessing...
17:39 Limbic_Region In case you are at all interested - http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=589762
17:39 lambdabot Title: named sub, subref and magic goto speed
17:41 TimToady yes, I was already following that.
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17:43 TimToady afk &
17:44 nwc10 Limbic_Region: does the optree differ for the two goto examples?
17:45 Limbic_Region nwc10 - I don't have perl available ATM to find out
17:47 Limbic_Region nwc10 - No matter what it is doing, it seems to me that it is a doc bug
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17:48 * Limbic_Region AFK &
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18:36 jdv79 about the $^ sigiled vars - where does the rest of the var name come from?
18:37 TimToady Limbic_Region: actually, nwc10 is on the right track, I think.  the &$foo has to throw in an extra opcode to possibly translate a symref to a CV.  bare $foo bypasses that.
18:37 TimToady jdv79: "come from"?
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18:38 TimToady in my experience, the rest of the var name comes from typing more characters after the ^.  :P
18:39 rindolf Hi all.
18:39 TimToady hi
18:40 Limbic_Region TimToady - I think it is underdocumented regardless.
18:41 Limbic_Region but then again, I think the behavior of glob iterator is underdocumented too
18:41 jdv79 i'm ust reading j worthington's p6 oo presentation and he shows "$^n" but I don't get where the n part came from.
18:41 TimToady I still don't know what you mean by "came from"
18:41 wolverian I think he means it's not declared.
18:41 wolverian or rather, that is confusing him.
18:42 TimToady $^n is self-declaring, jdv79
18:42 TimToady many twigiled variables are self-declaring.
18:42 TimToady $*n is a self-declared global, for instance.
18:43 TimToady but the twigil tells it the scope.
18:43 jdv79 oh ok.  is there a central doc on all the twigil variations?
18:43 TimToady so with ^ it happens to be a parameter to the current block.
18:43 TimToady sure
18:43 Limbic_Region jdv79 - they are the new $a and $b
18:43 Limbic_Region jdv79 - they are the new $a and $b
18:44 Limbic_Region hrm - didn't mean for that to happen
18:44 jdv79 cool i guess;)
18:45 Limbic_Region evalbot: sub hello { say $^greeting; } hello('world');
18:45 TimToady sorry, my firefox died...
18:45 TimToady S02 talks about twigils
18:46 Limbic_Region ?eval: sub hello { say $^greeting; } hello('world');
18:46 TimToady goto http://dev.perl.org/perl6 and it'll have a link to the various docs.
18:46 lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - perl6
18:46 evalbot_r14892 Error: ␤Unexpected ": sub"␤expecting "::"
18:47 TimToady ?eval sub hello { say $^greeting; } hello('world');
18:47 evalbot_r14892 OUTPUT[␤] Bool::True
18:47 TimToady can't use it in a normal sub, only in a bare block.
18:47 * Limbic_Region said that but unfortunately his client ate it
18:48 TimToady ?eval my $hello = { say $^greeting; }; $hello('world');
18:48 evalbot_r14892 OUTPUT[world␤] Bool::True
18:50 TimToady jdv79: the exact spot for twigils is http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/desig​n/syn/S02.html#Names_and_Variables
18:50 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 2: Bits and Pieces - perl6:, http://tinyurl.com/y648lg
18:55 TimToady jdv79: in addition to being the new $a and $b, the ^ notation also lets you document the meaning of the single argument to a single-argument block where in Perl 5 you'd have to use $_
18:55 TimToady e.g. @foo = grep { transmogrify $^element }, @bar
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18:58 Limbic_Region TimToady - the optrees are different.  Looking at the differences now
18:58 TimToady probably an extra RV2CV op
18:59 TimToady looks like the alpha sorting semantics of $^a <=> $^b is sub-documented in the synopses...at least, I'm not grepping anything...
18:59 Limbic_Region TimToady - http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=383504
18:59 lambdabot Title: ikegami's scratchpad
18:59 Limbic_Region looks like more than just 1 extra op
19:01 TimToady wow, looks like refgen thought it needed to boil down a list or some such...
19:02 TimToady like it was trying to handle \($a, $b, $c) or some such.
19:02 ashelyb_ PCR question: how do I write a rule that will match anything up until another string in PCR subset of p6 rules?
19:04 TimToady what's the matter with /.*? string/ ?
19:05 TimToady or are you using :ratchet?
19:05 ashelyb_ cause the .* is <rule1> and 'string' is in <rule2> and I cannot get it to work that way
19:06 ashelyb_ suppose I have "xyxyxyxyxyz" and the match is /<anything><matches_xyz>
19:06 TimToady if you're using rules then :ratchet is on by default, and .*? will probably end up too short
19:07 TimToady rules and tokens don't backtrack by default
19:07 ashelyb_ p::c::regex because calling them through p::c::regex seem work so well and all the tests are also writen with p::c::regex.
19:08 ashelyb_ so is there some kind of negative look ahead
19:08 TimToady is <anything> written as a rule or token or regex
19:08 TimToady ?
19:08 kolibrie I'm not sure that .*? is even implemented in PCR :ratchet - it is still listed in the TODO
19:09 ashelyb_ I;m currently only using Pugs::Compiler::Regex->install()
19:09 TimToady you can probably use <!before string> if you need a negative lookahead.
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19:10 TimToady I'm not talking about the routine names, but whether the regexes themselves were declared as rules or tokens or regexes.
19:10 TimToady I really have no clue about the PCR->install interface
19:10 ashelyb_ there seems to be a P::C::regex and a P::C::rule ...
19:11 ashelyb_ both with install methods
19:11 fglock quantifiers don't backtrack in :ratchet mode in PCR (which is wrong)
19:11 * kolibrie uses the v6-alpha interface
19:11 fglock the install methods are sugar for *rule = ...
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19:13 TimToady er, quantifiers shouldn't backtrack in :ratchet mode...
19:13 fglock oops, I thought so
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19:13 fglock so it is implemented right, after all
19:14 TimToady however, you should be able to override and force a quantifier to backtrack under :ratchet with :+ or whatever it is today...
19:16 TimToady so .*? and .*+ both force backtracking, either eager or greedy.
19:16 TimToady :ratchet just turns off the backtracking on .* .+ etc.
19:17 jdv79 thanks TimToady!
19:17 TimToady actually, I think we changed the extra + to ! or some such.
19:17 ashelyb_ my use case is that I have rule1 = /<-[ ]+>/;  and rule2 matches an ip address, but sometimes there is no space between the token for rule1 and the rule2, but I don't want rule1 to gobble the ip address that rule2 is supposed to match.
19:18 TimToady becaause jfriedl claimed ++ for possessive matches.
19:18 ashelyb_ so how would I write rule1 to not match any spaces or the ipaddress?
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19:19 fglock you mean /<-[ ]>+/
19:19 ashelyb_ yes I meant that.
19:19 ashelyb_ :)
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19:20 fglock how about \S+
19:21 fglock or \D+
19:21 ashelyb_ hmm so rule1  = /\S+?/;    ?
19:21 fglock \D means 'not a number'
19:21 ashelyb_ yeah but rule1 can match on any character but a space.
19:21 ashelyb_ even a number
19:22 TimToady yes, we did change it to .*? and .*! to override :ratchet
19:22 ashelyb_ my problem is that the space between the rule1 and the ipaddress is optional.
19:23 fglock I've got to go - it's my birthday party :)
19:23 ashelyb_ ! happy birthday!
19:23 TimToady ditto!
19:23 kolibrie fglock: happy birthday!
19:23 Limbic_Region feliz cumpleanos
19:24 PerlJam fglock: how old are you?  (Happy birthday!)
19:24 fglock thanks! have a virtual piece of cake
19:25 kolibrie mmmmm
19:25 fglock PerlJam: 43, I think
19:26 fglock tchau &
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19:30 kolibrie ashelyb_: if rule1 is fixed width, you can say /\S**{8}/ or /\S**{8..10}/ or whatever
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19:31 kolibrie ashelyb_: you can define a regex by what is matches, what it does not match, or how long it is
19:34 TimToady jdv79: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design​/syn/S06.html#Placeholder_variables also discusses the $^ notation.
19:35 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 6: Subroutines - perl6:, http://tinyurl.com/pfpph
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19:35 ashelyb_ how would I say don't match xyz?  as a string not as a word class like /<-[a-z]>+/
19:36 ashelyb_ <-x><-y><-z>    hmmm
19:37 ashelyb_ or no that would probably be <-[x]><-[y]>...
19:37 kolibrie maybe <!'xyz'>
19:37 ashelyb_ trying.
19:39 Limbic_Region TimToady - out of curiosity, is there anything neat in the works for pack/unpack since they aren't spec'd yet?
19:40 TimToady haven't really thought about it much.  mostly I think that sort of thing should be handled by serialization roles.
19:40 ashelyb_ unknown node: $VAR1 = undef;
19:40 ashelyb_ ... it doesn't like the <!'stuff'> syntax...
19:40 * Limbic_Region often laments for an unpack that remembers where it left off such that you wouldn't need to keep track of x yourself
19:40 TimToady try <!before stuff>
19:40 TimToady where stuff is a re
19:40 ashelyb_ where stuff is xyz
19:40 ashelyb_ ah
19:40 ashelyb_ that's what you meant, trying...
19:41 ashelyb_ Undefined subroutine &Pugs::Emitter::Rule::Perl5::not_before called at /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.4​/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5.pm line 101.
19:42 TimToady then I'd say negative lookahead is not yet implemented...
19:42 Limbic_Region TimToady - so would strings come with some built in serialization roles or is everything user defined?
19:43 TimToady dunno
19:43 Limbic_Region or rather, instead of trying to force a solution on a problem let me present the problem and ask how you would solve it
19:45 Limbic_Region in general, if I pull a record defined by some unpack format out of a string - I want unpack to remember where I was so next time I get a record I don't have to specify my skip value
19:48 TimToady I think there are several components to the solution.  first, treat the normal pack/unpack templates as a language that compiles down to some internal form.
19:48 weinig_ is now known as weinig|away
19:48 TimToady second, have a way for a class serializer to return one of those compiled thingies without having to re-engineer the pack template syntax.
19:49 TimToady third, have a way for pack/unpack to refer to the current string position like regexen can.
19:50 TimToady possibly there are more unifications with re syntax down the road too
19:51 TimToady basically, think of pack templates as compiling down to a sub that could be called as a rule.
19:52 Limbic_Region ok
19:52 TimToady which basically means unpack could be returning a Capture.
19:52 TimToady and pack would just turn a Capture back into a serialized string.
19:53 TimToady I'm sure there are plenty of details around the devil.
19:53 * Limbic_Region is beginning to like the sounds of this
19:54 ingy hola
19:55 pasteling "ashleyb_" at 66.201.51.66 pasted "got it -- matching before IP address, thanks TimToday and kolibrie." (43 lines, 908B) at http://sial.org/pbot/21784
19:58 ashleyb joined perl6
19:59 TimToady ingy: hey!
20:01 ingy hi TimToady!
20:02 ingy how's the season at Chez Wall?
20:03 TimToady Geneva's home from college, which is nice.
20:03 TimToady I have the crud, which is not so nice.
20:04 ingy I had the crud for the entire month of November
20:04 TimToady comes of living somewhere soggy.  :)
20:04 ingy I ran the Dublin marathon on Oct 30, and got the nastiest thing on the flight home
20:05 ingy comes from flying overseas in the recycled breath of sick people
20:05 TimToady there are an amazing number of bugs that kick you harder when you're already down for some reason.
20:05 ingy yeah, but I never had them set up camp like this before
20:06 ingy anyway, feeling great i a very soggy Seattle at the moment
20:06 ingy                       n
20:06 ingy ooo. lucky spacebar!
20:07 TimToady need a half-space bar
20:07 Aankhen`` joined perl6
20:07 * Juerd hands TimToady a hobby knife
20:07 ingy Capitol Hill - A River Runs Through It
20:08 TimToady on some old typewriters you could fake a half-space because backspace would go back space-and-a-half while the key was down, then revert a half when the key came up.
20:08 * ingy laughs
20:08 ingy add it to the spec!
20:09 TimToady actually, I preferred the ones where the ordinary space bar went half space when you pushed it down and half space when you let it up.
20:09 ingy nice
20:09 TimToady made it really easy to insert a word that was one character longer.
20:10 ingy oh right, yeah
20:10 ingy that took me a sec
20:10 ingy take a half from each side
20:10 TimToady right
20:11 Juerd Makes me wonder if this was an implementation side effect, or an intended feature :)
20:11 ingy YAML forbids your typewriter
20:12 ingy god i'm glad the halfspace never made it into ascii
20:12 TimToady why? YAML is defined only by what it ain't.
20:12 TimToady unless you're claiming that a typewriter is Markup Language
20:14 * ingy just has an overwhelming sense of fud around TimToady
20:14 ingy :)
20:14 TimToady didn't make it into Unicode either.  though we do have thin space, hair space, six-per-em space, punctuation space, and zero-width space...
20:14 stevan__ is now known as stevan
20:15 ingy mostly f :D
20:15 TimToady -Ofud
20:15 ingy YAML has quite a few line endings that it allows
20:16 ingy iirc
20:16 ingy like NEL
20:17 ingy http://yaml.org/spec/cvs/current.html#id871136
20:17 lambdabot Title: YAML Ain&#8217;t Markup Language (YAML&#8482;) Version 1.1
20:17 ingy goofy
20:17 stevan ingy!!!!!
20:18 ingy hi stevan!
20:18 ingy it's been a bit
20:18 ingy how you been?
20:18 * stevan hums the theme to chariots of fire and pictures ingy crossing the finish line in Dublin
20:19 stevan ingy: $work is *finally* starting to let up (holidays and all)
20:19 ingy My whole body seized up with like 300 meters to go
20:19 ingy I almost just fell over
20:19 ingy cause they had this fake finish line that i picked up the pace for
20:20 ingy stevan: yay
20:20 stevan bastards!
20:20 ingy yeah, it was actually the start line with a big arch of balloons
20:21 ingy but the finish was 1/4 mile or so more
20:21 stevan ingy: we are flying nothingmuch out here in Feb. for $work, we should try and organize an East Coast Hackathon or something :)
20:21 ingy stevan: I'm in
20:21 stevan ingy: my house is not big enough to host, but I am sure we can work something out
20:21 ingy I've started doing a serious Kwiki reorg... Kwiki 2.0
20:22 ingy ok
20:22 stevan cool
20:22 ingy yeah I need to start writing the plugins in Perl6 though
20:22 ingy hmm, that's a really good idea
20:23 stevan I have been hacking Ocaml lately,.. it has a really nice bridge to Perl (perl4caml) and its like Haskell only not as psychotically pure :)
20:23 ingy suprised I just thought of that
20:23 ingy oh yeah?
20:23 ingy what kind of bridge?
20:25 stevan ingy: its pretty low level (dealing with sv,av,hv, etc)
20:25 stevan http://merjis.com/developers/perl4caml
20:25 lambdabot Title: Developers/Perl4Caml
20:25 stevan but its very easy to write a nice wrapper around modules
20:25 TimToady so is there an Ocaml to Haskell bridge?  if so, we're home free. :)
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20:25 stevan TimToady: I would think there might be :)
20:26 stevan i mean,.. it sounds enough like a PhD thesis, I am sure someone has tried it :)
20:27 TimToady maybe we should go for a record.  we could send out Perl 6.0.0 and have it require five or six different runtimes all in the same process.
20:28 stevan TimToady: why stop at 5 or 6 ?
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20:28 TimToady I think that would be a record already...
20:29 ingy vote for 6 runtimes personally, for obvious reasons
20:29 TimToady doing more than 5 or 6 might slow adoption a tad... :)
20:30 ingy stevan: can you write Perl modules in Caml easily using that bridge?
20:30 ingy Inline::Caml
20:30 stevan ingy: I have been thinking about that actually :)
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20:30 stevan ingy: the trick is that ocaml is very very static
20:31 ingy so is C, no?
20:32 stevan ingy: no, Ocaml has a very aggressive type inferencer which does not lend itself to much flexibility
20:32 stevan but I am exploring some of the deeper internal modules to see what is possible
20:32 stevan my first goal is to make it possible to subclass a perl class with an ocaml class
20:32 ingy who is coming out with nothingmuch btw?
20:32 nnunley stevan: OCaml provides some nice bits for foreign bindings, as I recall.
20:33 stevan ingy: just him, its actually for $work stuff,.. but I figure we can take a few days off for $play
20:33 ingy wow. hi nnunley!
20:33 ingy where are you these days?
20:33 nnunley Hey, ingy.
20:33 nnunley London, for the time being.
20:33 stevan nnunley: I havent explored those yet
20:33 ingy stevan: maybe I'll come visit you early, and overlap with nothingmuch
20:34 ingy nnunley: still with fotango?
20:34 nnunley stevan: I think all they require is an opaque pointer with function bindings for calls through to C, as well as a few function bindings for garbage collection.
20:34 stevan why is that I am always attracted to modules which have this type of caveats "Run-time support for objects and classes. All functions in this module are for system use only, not for the casual user."
20:34 nnunley ingy: For the time being.
20:34 ingy nod
20:35 penk joined perl6
20:35 * gaal mooses
20:37 polettix joined perl6
20:42 * ingy gooses
20:42 ingy mmm gøøse
20:43 ingy I wrote an awesome module called Script::Hater
20:43 ingy for generating Configure type scripts from data
20:43 ingy programming in YAML
20:44 ingy I should call it Code::Hater
20:44 * ingy isa Code::Hater
20:45 * ingy isa Data::Lover
20:45 gaal call it descript
20:45 ingy how about Scriptnoxious
20:46 gaal NOXcript
20:46 ingy I hope Perl6 is the ultimate mini-language meta-language
20:47 gaal UMLML? eep
20:48 ingy Many programming tasks are well suited to having their own special programming language
20:48 ingy So hopefully changing the P6 grammar is AllThat(tm)
20:50 stevan_ joined perl6
20:58 nnunley ingy: How's you?
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21:47 GeJ good møøse all
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