Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-12-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 ilogger2 joined perl6
00:00 ruoso joined perl6
00:29 ilogger2 joined perl6
00:29 luqui joined perl6
00:29 spo0nman joined perl6
00:29 frankg joined perl6
00:29 mj41 joined perl6
00:29 ruoso joined perl6
00:33 silug joined perl6
00:33 takesako__ joined perl6
00:33 cognominal joined perl6
00:33 masak joined perl6
00:33 Odin- joined perl6
00:33 diotalevi joined perl6
00:33 thestarslookdown joined perl6
00:33 nperez joined perl6
00:33 araujo joined perl6
00:33 mtve joined perl6
00:33 Azure-BOT joined perl6
00:34 glasser joined perl6
00:35 Tene joined perl6
00:35 ilogger2 joined perl6
00:35 Shabble joined perl6
00:35 greenail_ joined perl6
00:35 nipotaway joined perl6
00:35 dmq joined perl6
00:35 broquaint joined perl6
00:36 spoop joined perl6
00:36 Lee_ joined perl6
00:36 rgs joined perl6
00:36 meppl joined perl6
00:36 takanori_ joined perl6
00:36 stevan joined perl6
00:36 mj41 joined perl6
00:36 ruz joined perl6
00:36 nekokak joined perl6
00:36 thestarslookdown joined perl6
00:36 spo0nman joined perl6
00:36 lambdabot joined perl6
00:36 glasser joined perl6
00:38 prism joined perl6
00:40 Eidolos joined perl6
00:41 neonse joined perl6
00:48 felipe joined perl6
01:13 bcorn joined perl6
01:30 jrockway ?uptime
01:30 lambdabot uptime: 54m 24s, longest uptime: 9d 2h 23m 6s
01:30 svnbot6 Running for 1083673 seconds.
01:31 jrockway > let f = (* 2); f 2
01:31 lambdabot Parse error
01:31 jrockway so you can do haskell in #perl6 :)
01:32 jrockway > 1 + 1
01:32 lambdabot 2
01:36 allbery_b > let f = (* 2) in f 2
01:37 allbery_b hrm
01:37 allbery_b ?seen
01:37 allbery_b sad bot
01:37 allbery_b @bot
01:38 lambdabot 4
01:38 lambdabot Lately, I have seen allbery_b, dcoutts__, glguy, jrockway, mgsloan, ndm, sorear, svnbot6 and tizoc.
01:38 lambdabot :)
01:38 kanru joined perl6
01:38 allbery_b lambdabot's even slower than I am tonight, it seems
01:42 weinig joined perl6
01:44 jrockway @botsnack
01:44 lambdabot :)
01:55 penk joined perl6
01:56 Aankhen`` joined perl6
02:10 bonesss joined perl6
02:11 ozo joined perl6
02:17 nipra joined perl6
02:42 dmq joined perl6
03:01 weinig is now known as weinig|zZz
03:19 nipotaway is now known as nipotan
03:35 Aankhen`` joined perl6
03:44 Yappo joined perl6
03:46 thestarslookdown joined perl6
03:52 lisppaste3 joined perl6
04:32 thestarslookdown joined perl6
04:48 thestarslookdown joined perl6
05:01 penk left perl6
05:17 kanru joined perl6
05:18 amnesiac joined perl6
06:09 nipra joined perl6
06:14 BooK joined perl6
06:14 dduncan joined perl6
06:14 perlbot joined perl6
06:15 dduncan question: I recall that the Perl 6 epoch is the year 2000, however, is it specifically 2000-1-1T0:0:0 , or some other second of the year 2000?
06:16 dduncan or is it some other when?
06:21 allbery_b I think that's right
07:13 frankg joined perl6
07:39 thestarslookdown joined perl6
07:44 marmic joined perl6
07:48 RHainsworth joined perl6
07:48 RHainsworth left perl6
08:00 kanru joined perl6
08:08 lisppaste3 joined perl6
08:14 Grrrr joined perl6
08:15 buetow joined perl6
08:18 * dmq runs around being chased by a swarm of very small parrots
08:21 iblechbot joined perl6
08:21 Grrrr joined perl6
08:29 drrho joined perl6
08:35 DebolazX joined perl6
08:47 thestarslookdown joined perl6
08:52 theorb joined perl6
08:59 Odin- joined perl6
09:11 gaal could be worse. they might be giants.
09:34 andara joined perl6
09:48 nipra_ joined perl6
09:52 ayrnieu joined perl6
10:14 chris2 joined perl6
10:20 kane-xs joined perl6
10:21 kane-xs is now known as kane_
10:25 nipra__ joined perl6
10:25 dduncan left perl6
10:28 nipra joined perl6
10:32 chris2 joined perl6
10:38 chris2 joined perl6
11:00 rafl_ joined perl6
11:00 glasser joined perl6
11:00 spo0nman joined perl6
11:00 ruz joined perl6
11:00 takanori_ joined perl6
11:00 meppl joined perl6
11:00 spoop joined perl6
11:00 nipotan joined perl6
11:00 greenail_ joined perl6
11:00 sonorous joined perl6
11:00 revdiablo joined perl6
11:00 araujo joined perl6
11:00 TzuChiang joined perl6
11:00 LCamel joined perl6
11:00 idiotmax joined perl6
11:00 kolibrie joined perl6
11:00 rafl joined perl6
11:00 norageek joined perl6
11:00 py1hon joined perl6
11:00 beppu joined perl6
11:00 kcwu joined perl6
11:00 Debolaz joined perl6
11:00 Juerd joined perl6
11:00 wolverian joined perl6
11:00 shachaf joined perl6
11:00 qmole joined perl6
11:00 GeJ joined perl6
11:00 drbean joined perl6
11:00 xinming joined perl6
11:00 TimToady joined perl6
11:00 buubot joined perl6
11:00 dvorak joined perl6
11:00 PerlJam joined perl6
11:00 f0rth joined perl6
11:00 pmichaud joined perl6
11:00 pnu joined perl6
11:00 gaal joined perl6
11:00 ingy joined perl6
11:00 tewk joined perl6
11:00 mugwump joined perl6
11:00 DebolazX joined perl6
11:00 marmic joined perl6
11:00 perlbot joined perl6
11:00 Yappo joined perl6
11:00 dmq joined perl6
11:00 felipe joined perl6
11:00 Azure-BOT joined perl6
11:00 nperez joined perl6
11:00 Maddingue joined perl6
11:00 orafu joined perl6
11:00 autark joined perl6
11:00 hcchien joined perl6
11:00 gugod joined perl6
11:00 scw joined perl6
11:00 jiing joined perl6
11:00 Patterner joined perl6
11:00 obra joined perl6
11:00 clkao joined perl6
11:00 spinclad joined perl6
11:00 webmind joined perl6
11:00 amv joined perl6
11:00 bennymack joined perl6
11:00 mr_ank joined perl6
11:00 lumi joined perl6
11:00 statico joined perl6
11:00 nelhage joined perl6
11:00 avar joined perl6
11:00 kanru joined perl6
11:00 weinig|zZz joined perl6
11:00 cognominal joined perl6
11:00 lyokato joined perl6
11:00 miyagawa joined perl6
11:00 Khisanth joined perl6
11:00 cookys joined perl6
11:00 buu joined perl6
11:00 cmeyer joined perl6
11:00 SCalimlim joined perl6
11:00 Coleoid joined perl6
11:00 jnthn joined perl6
11:00 svnbot6 joined perl6
11:06 sonorous joined perl6
11:13 ayrnieu joined perl6
11:15 iblechbot joined perl6
11:25 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
11:30 andara joined perl6
11:31 meppl joined perl6
11:37 Schwern joined perl6
11:38 Schwern Can someone explain to me the difference between fail and die?  Or point me to the appropriate docs?
11:42 broquaint I think fail returns a Failure object where as die properly throws an exception.
11:43 broquaint See. Exceptions and Definition of Success in S04: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S04.html
11:43 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 4: Blocks and Statements - perl6:
11:43 Schwern That seems to say that fail returns an undef unless "use fatal" is in effect in which case it throws an exception.
11:43 ayrnieu S29 in my Perl6::Bible has "die\nfail\n    TODO: Research the exception handling system."
11:44 broquaint I think it's an undef with relevant Failure info.
11:44 broquaint e.g "A list is of undefined length only if it contains an undefined generator, which, happily, is what is returned by the fail function when used in list context."
11:45 Schwern Ahh, here it is.
11:45 Schwern The advantage of using fail is that it allows the callers of get_data to decide how that subroutine should signal failure. As explained above, normally fail fails by returning undef. But if a use fatal pragma is in effect, any invocation of fail instead throws the corresponding exception.
11:45 ayrnieu well, ... calls fail; S03 says: If no arguments are given, the operator calls "fail" (returning "undef", or throwing an exception if "use fatal" is in effect).
11:45 Schwern Boy that's handy
11:46 broquaint Larry, you've done it again!
11:46 Schwern Zounds!
11:48 Juerd fail is the configurable error thingy :)
11:48 Juerd Extremely useful. You can easily make it warn and return undef. Finally the user of your module gets to choose in a consistent way :)
11:49 ayrnieu how can you make it warn?
11:51 Schwern use just::a::flesh::wound ?
11:54 ayrnieu Schwern - the other idea was that you can have 'open or die' or else just an 'open' that throws an exception.  Clearly, warnings would reduce the former's utility.
11:55 Schwern Would the caller's "use fatal" change the behavior of an open() inside a subroutine?
11:56 Lee_ joined perl6
11:56 * ayrnieu doesn't know.
11:56 frankg joined perl6
11:57 broquaint use fatal :scope('dynamic'); # Mwhaha!
12:03 neonse left perl6
12:09 neonse joined perl6
12:19 ofer0 joined perl6
12:26 andara left perl6
12:32 nipotan is now known as nipotaway
12:33 avar fail should be the canonical example you should hit people with when they misunderstand TMTOWTDI
12:36 kisu joined perl6
12:53 gaal Schwern: http://gaal.livejournal.com/170284.html
12:56 xinming_ joined perl6
13:11 BooK_ joined perl6
13:40 andara joined perl6
13:51 devogon joined perl6
14:30 turrepurre joined perl6
15:01 bonesss joined perl6
15:05 nipra joined perl6
15:20 elmex joined perl6
15:20 hexmode joined perl6
15:24 weinig|zZz is now known as weinig
15:42 bernhard joined perl6
15:48 Schwern How is anyone installing Test::TAP::Model?
15:49 Schwern Its not using any of the analyze methods correctly
15:54 Schwern Ahh, they changed.
16:19 kanru joined perl6
16:20 andara joined perl6
16:48 andara left perl6
17:00 BooK joined perl6
17:07 amnesiac joined perl6
17:09 amnesiac joined perl6
17:15 justatheory joined perl6
17:27 gnuvince joined perl6
17:35 rgs Juerd: fwiw, I won't post on that trollesque thread on hate-software, but I'll have to mention that I *love* the Perl 6 whitespace rules :) even if I'm quite involved in Perl 5.
17:42 Juerd I love that mailing list, even if it is indeed a troll nest.
17:44 rgs not unsubscribed yet :)
17:45 Juerd It's aggregated at http://we.hates-software.net/
17:46 Juerd s/net/com/
17:46 rgs yes: http://rgarciasuarez.hates-software.com/
17:46 lambdabot Title: rgarciasuarez hates software
17:47 Juerd Ah :)
17:52 iblechbot joined perl6
17:56 TimToady rgs: what about the whitespace rules do you like in particular?
17:57 rgs TimToady: it removes ambiguities
17:58 rgs at least for my definition of "intuition"
17:58 TimToady k, I just wasn't sure how I'd answer if someone asked me.  :)
17:58 rgs more specifically, there was a thread on how hateful "print (3+4)" is.
17:59 TimToady ah, yes.  that's something we intentionally killed very dead.
17:59 Juerd I like that it removes the horrible special casing for ().
17:59 rgs Abigail, for example, likes to write that, and patches his perls to remove the warning "print (...) interpreted as a function"
17:59 Juerd rgs: That patch should be default imo :)
18:00 rgs to remove the warning ?
18:00 Juerd Yes, absolutely. I hate that warning.
18:00 Juerd If this is how Perl 5 works, then the warning shouldn't be there.
18:00 Juerd Besides that, the warning appears very inconsistently. Not for every function, not for every amount of whitespace.
18:00 rgs I hate it too. But I still think it helps.
18:00 TimToady Warnings are for when your intuition is violated.
18:01 Juerd And it doesn't respond to no warnings...
18:01 rgs also, this warning is emitted by heuristics
18:01 Juerd TimToady: Warnings are okay if you can disable them. :)
18:01 rgs which is, as you know, a fancy way to say it doesn't work :)
18:01 TimToady Perl 5 tries to change your intuition.  Perl 6 goes with the intuition of 90% of the people.
18:01 wamiks joined perl6
18:01 Juerd I forgot when you got this warning even with no warnings 'syntax';
18:02 rgs I think that's fixed now
18:02 Juerd TimToady: Are there stats on that somewhere?
18:02 rgs but there's a warning that is even more hateful :
18:02 rgs $ perl -we 'my $file; open my $x, $file;'
18:02 rgs Parentheses missing around "my" list at -e line 1.
18:02 Juerd Oh, yes.
18:02 rgs If you remove the ";", the warning goes away.
18:02 Juerd I'm not arguing that this is the most hateful warning :)
18:03 rgs what is hateful is that the tokenizer looks for a ";" to emit the warning. Another heuristic.
18:03 TimToady Juerd: no, 90% is my intuition.  :)
18:03 Juerd TimToady: As mutated by Perl 5, or ...? :)
18:03 rgs stats can be wrong 90% of the time, but not intuition :)
18:04 TimToady anyway, the main reason for the whitespace rules is to keep postfix distinct from infix.
18:04 TimToady this just falls out of it nicely.
18:04 TimToady we had to have a consistent rule or we can't really extend the grammar with new postfix or infix.
18:05 Juerd Uhhuh
18:05 Juerd It took a while for me to realise all this, but I've loved it for quite a while now.
18:06 Juerd I still don't like that you can't use whitespace with . (\ is too ugly for my taste), but understand that there's no fix for that.
18:06 TimToady not without breaking .foo meaning $_.foo
18:07 Juerd Yea
18:07 Juerd Well, there is the backtick of course ;)
18:07 Juerd s/.*//
18:07 TimToady and I think that's also in the same category of doing a small syntax tweak so you don't have to remember a bunch of exceptions.
18:08 TimToady likewise you don't have to remember which } to put ; after.
18:08 Juerd Personally I'd rather be forced to write ; after each }
18:08 Juerd But that's no issue at all for me
18:09 Juerd (It does mean that I have to be more careful about emitting code)
18:09 TimToady yeah
18:09 TimToady but I think the price is worth it in terms of visual clean-lookingness
18:09 Juerd In the past I have emitted code with only \n whitespace.
18:10 Juerd Just because I could ;)
18:10 TimToady which the lack of drives people away from Perl 5
18:10 Juerd I'm not sure what drives people away from Perl 5. The lack of Perl 6 seems to be a big factor too.
18:10 TimToady all the punctuation in Perl 6 has to do work, it can't sit around and loaf.
18:11 Juerd I'm driven away from Perl 5 AND 6 by lack of time to spend typing. :|
18:11 Juerd And the little time I do have, I enjoy discussion too much.
18:11 TimToady I never noticed. :P
18:12 Juerd :)
18:12 TimToady ah well, I agree that the handicap of being only one person is rather depressing at times.
18:13 Juerd I'm vastly wasting my time on this hates-software list now, defending Perl 6 to a bunch of people who have decided that they will hate it anyway...
18:14 TimToady There are lots of people in the world who are never happy unless they have something to be unhappy about.
18:16 rgs and they don't even send patches :)
18:17 TimToady on the other hand, it doesn't do to ignore them entirely either, because occasionally they'll tell you when the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.
18:18 Tene TimToady: can you remember any good examples of times that's happened?
18:27 TimToady well, the people who carped for years about too much gratuitous punctuation in Perl were basically correct.  They were just mostly wrong about which punctuation was gratuitous.
18:28 Tene What were their claims?
18:28 TimToady basically, Perl should look like C.  :)
18:29 TimToady usually in the form of "Perl just looks like line noise."
18:29 TimToady but they wanted mainly to lose the sigils, and the curlies around statements.
18:29 TimToady when we really needed to lose the punctuation variables and the parens around conditionals.
18:30 TimToady and change -> to .
18:31 DHGE joined perl6
18:31 TimToady the sigils and the curlies have only grown in importance
18:32 TimToady curlies are now closures, which is something outside the ken of C programmers.
18:32 TimToady and the sigils turn out to be a good way to hide twigils as well as variable names.
18:33 TimToady so we can use various ascii characters for twigils without disqualifying them as unary prefixes, like happens in Ruby
18:36 cognominal Will people be allowed to use new sigils as a way to cheaply define their favorite and recurrent types?
18:37 TimToady in theory, yes.  in practice we try to discourage it.
18:37 cognominal why?
18:38 TimToady 'cuz every time we've tried to do that ourselves, we've ended up deciding it's better to just use $.
18:39 TimToady ¢ has been a sigil several times.
18:39 cognominal I would have offered a sigil to Capture for example
18:39 TimToady it had a sigil for a while
18:41 cognominal dutr, more sigils would not be easily accepted outside the Perl communauty
18:41 TimToady but it's basically bad Huffman coding
18:42 TimToady so currently the Capture sigil is |$, kind of.
18:42 TimToady and prefix | composes better with expressions than a ¢ sigil does
18:43 TimToady to use a sigil for a cast, you need parens usually.
18:43 TimToady whereas unary | can be used more places.
18:43 TimToady you'd have to day ¢(function()) instead of |function()
18:43 TimToady *say
18:44 TimToady sigils like to eat following identifiers.
18:48 cognominal Sure enough, even if I do not understand every single choice, I am sold to Perl 6 only thru regex and argument  passing/capture. I can't understand people like Slomi who want to stick with Perl 5.
18:49 cognominal The introduction of references in Perl 5 had stretched the reasonnable syntactic limits
18:51 cognominal hum, Shlomi
18:52 cognominal In French, we say somthing like "Keep me from my friends, my ennemies, I deal with"
18:55 TimToady nah, Shlomi's fine these days, hangs out here frequently.
19:01 * dmq notes there is a difference between "wants to make perl5 better" and "wants to stick with perl5"
19:09 cognominal dmq,  I took a shot of you at lpw : http://www.flickr.com/photos/26619155@N00/321392651/in/photostream/
19:09 lambdabot Title: demerphq presents "regexen in perl 5.10" on Flickr - Photo Sharing!, http://tinyurl.com/y83aqk
19:18 dmq i look like im waiting for the judge to render verdict :-)
19:23 Odin-LAP joined perl6
19:24 polettix joined perl6
19:24 frederico joined perl6
19:27 justatheory_ joined perl6
19:28 thestarslookdown joined perl6
19:29 dmq btw, i hope you enjoyed the talk cognomial.
19:57 Alchemy joined perl6
19:59 Alchemy joined perl6
19:59 prism joined perl6
20:07 mrossetti joined perl6
20:10 Schwern People who think foo () vs foo() is the end of the world confuse me.  There's so much better things which herald the end of the world in Perl 6 than that.
20:10 Schwern Like the Whatever object. :)
20:12 * Schwern runs around cutting heads off chickens.
20:14 * dmq offers bets on which chicken falls over first
20:27 weinig is now known as weinig_
20:27 weinig_ is now known as weinig
20:30 knewt joined perl6
20:37 luqui joined perl6
20:38 luqui RA layer request failed: PROPFIND request failed on '/pugs': PROPFIND of '/pugs': 502 Proxy Error (http://svn.pugscode.org)
20:38 lambdabot Title: Perl6 Community Development Server
20:42 wolverian same here
21:01 audreyt fixed
21:02 luqui hey audreyt, where is the hyper logic?
21:02 luqui I see where we make the hyper operators, but where do we tell it what to do?
21:03 audreyt sorry, need to sleep
21:03 audreyt Pugs.Eval.Var:363
21:03 Debolaz True geeks never sleep.
21:03 audreyt main dispatch is :418
21:03 audreyt have fun :) &
21:03 luqui k thanks
21:04 audreyt Debolaz: since I bought this new mattress I completely lost ability to sleephack
21:04 audreyt I blame tempur :) &
21:24 Schwern joined perl6
21:26 gnuvince joined perl6
21:27 thestarslookdown joined perl6
21:33 avarab joined perl6
21:34 avarab is now known as avar
22:36 wolverian feather doesn't have nethack? boggle :)
22:43 nperez joined perl6
22:50 elmex joined perl6
22:58 Gothmog_ joined perl6
23:05 Aankhen`` joined perl6
23:16 weinig is now known as weinig|food
23:18 Psyche^ joined perl6
23:32 Aankhen`` joined perl6
23:35 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
23:39 dduncan joined perl6

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo