Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2006-12-30

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 ezraburgh joined perl6
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00:07 TimToady diotalevi: bit resent
00:08 TimToady assuming you want it sent to the same gmail address...
00:08 perlDreamer well, I've done a little digging into the tests by running the smartlink script and I've come up with a question.
00:08 perlDreamer are commas required after a pointy block, and if so, where in the spec does it say that?
00:10 TimToady commas are required after all normal arguments, and that includes the first argument to grep and map and such now.
00:10 TimToady well, not after the final argument, of course...
00:11 zgh oh i get it now, the question was comparing to what perl5 does with prototype tricks...
00:11 TimToady anyway, blocks used as arguments are no longer magical.
00:11 zgh i was confused
00:11 perlDreamer TimToady: were they at one point?
00:11 zgh in perl5 they were
00:11 TimToady yes, at the beginning of Perl 6 they were also magical.
00:12 TimToady but we decided it was more important to have consistent curly policy
00:12 TimToady especially at the ends of lines.
00:12 TimToady it generally means you never have to remember which blocks require semicolons after them and which don't.
00:12 perlDreamer that's convenient
00:13 TimToady comma in grep and map was a small price to pay for that.
00:13 TimToady after all these years, I still can't keep it straight in C which kinds of block are which.
00:13 perlDreamer I barely even learned C.  Perl was too useful
00:13 TimToady and it was rapidly going to become untennable in a language that can be extended with new block types.
00:14 zgh in perl5 though it's FUN
00:14 zgh although a bit restricting
00:14 TimToady untenable, even
00:14 zgh how true
00:14 perlDreamer I'll see if a similar test exists elsewhere, and either remove the smartlink or point it to the correct docs then
00:15 TimToady many of the seemingly weird rules in Perl 6 serve similar extensibility purposes.
00:15 TimToady the fact that postfix requires the absence of whitespace, for instance.
00:15 TimToady perlDreamer: that's cool.  the smartlinks are in a state of partial completion currently
00:16 zgh perl6 is scary extensible. the toolkit for perl5 is fairly small in that regard, but now that I'm used to it perl6 syntax seems almost terrifyingly mutable
00:17 TimToady the basic realization was that perl 6 is not one language, but many
00:17 zgh yes! cpan is the langauge! i love that.
00:17 zgh er s/au/ua/ or something
00:17 TimToady and many places where Perl 5 was busting at the seams can be looked at that way.
00:17 perlDreamer do you mean that perl6 is like Hoch Deutsch (High German) with lots of regional dialects?
00:18 diakopter a thought I had yesterday - is perl6 mutable enough that a pragma could be written that would allow perl6 to compile other languages?
00:18 TimToady perhaps more like IndoEuropean...
00:18 zgh i've been playing with domain-specific languages and higher-order stuff  in perl5 and from here the seams are quite visible
00:18 TimToady indeed.
00:18 TimToady diakopter: yes, that is the intent
00:19 TimToady use APL;
00:19 TimToady !!&*&R*WER&W*ERQ(Q@&#$%($#$
00:19 zgh boy APL has gotten more readable!
00:19 zgh when did that happen?
00:20 TimToady that was just unrelated line noise :)
00:20 zgh TimToady: oh good ofr a second I thought I spotted a syntax error ;)
00:21 TimToady cat sat on the keyboard, and cat's hind end doesn't know APL...
00:23 TimToady anyway, point is that "all is fair if you predeclare", and we realized that means your current dialect.  In fact, I realized this for Perl 5, but did a lousy job of designing for it.  Good enough to inspire CPAN though...
00:24 * diakopter wonders how much of CPAN will be refactored and reimplemented anyway, even though most of it is probably usable for perl6 programs.
00:25 TimToady if it only gets everyone to add a version number and naming authority to every longname, that will be progress.
00:25 TimToady all source filters should at least be refactored to use grammar munging and macros.
00:26 TimToady the business of reparsing Perl N times, one for each source filter, is for the birds.
00:26 * zgh prefers aggresive prototype trickery to source filters.
00:26 zgh not that I can do as much....
00:27 TimToady prototypes also needed a lot of fixing.
00:27 TimToady mainly by scrapping them and putting in a real type system and MMD
00:28 * diakopter wonders what happened to the Phalanx 100
00:28 TimToady and making evaluation lazy enough not to commit to whether @foo will be in scalar or list context till binding time.
00:30 diakopter how does one use the evalbot here
00:31 TimToady ?eval 1+1
00:31 evalbot_r14941 is now known as evalbot_r14942
00:31 evalbot_r14942 2
00:32 perlDreamer ?eval @a = ("one" -> $x { $x**2 }, "three")
00:32 evalbot_r14942 Error: ␤Unexpected "->"␤expecting operator or ")"
00:32 TimToady -> is not an infix
00:33 perlDreamer TimToady, can you please translate that to chip designer from language designer?
00:33 TimToady ?eval @a = ("one",  -> $x { $x**2 }, "three")
00:33 evalbot_r14942 ["one", ->{Syn "block" {App &infix:** (: Var "$x", 2)}}, "three"]
00:33 TimToady it means you have to put a comma before it.  :)
00:33 perlDreamer cool, thanks
00:39 svnbot6 r14943 | perlDreamer++ | fix broken smartlink and tests that were removed
00:40 diakopter karma perlDreamer
00:40 jabbot diakopter: perlDreamer has karma of 3
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00:41 perlDreamer in WebGUI, karma is good for implementing RFE's
00:41 zgh off to a good start I'd say
00:41 perlDreamer what is karma good for here?
00:41 zgh karma zgh
00:41 jabbot zgh: zgh has karma of 16
00:41 zgh ooh!
00:41 zgh you'll overtake me quick
00:41 svnbot6 r14944 | perlDreamer++ | fix broken smartlink about prefixes
00:46 diotalevi Thanks for commit bit resend TimToady. Got it.
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00:48 svnbot6 r14945 | perlDreamer++ | fixed broken smarklink that used to refer to mandatory plus instead of colon
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01:37 perlDreamer karma perlDreamer
01:37 jabbot perlDreamer: perlDreamer has karma of 5
01:37 svnbot6 r14946 | perlDreamer++ | refix point block smartlink
01:37 svnbot6 r14947 | perlDreamer++ | fix spelling error in comments
01:37 diakopter karma perlDreamer
01:37 jabbot diakopter: perlDreamer has karma of 7
01:38 perlDreamer muy interesante
02:01 svnbot6 r14948 | perlDreamer++ | Fixed broken smartlinks related to nested subpattern/subrule captures.
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02:18 perlDreamer TimToady: Are you still awake?  If I find something in the Synopses that is causing the smartlinks lookup to fail, is it okay to change the POD?
02:19 zgh perlDreamer: precedent says "yes"
02:19 zgh if it's really wrong it's okay to fix it
02:20 perlDreamer It's just whitespace, I think
02:20 perlDreamer have a peek:
02:20 perlDreamer 80(P):101(e):114(r):108(l):​194(�):160(�):53(5):32( )
02:20 perlDreamer 80(P):101(e):114(r):108(l):32( ):53(5):32( )
02:20 perlDreamer That's the ordinal followed by the actual character
02:21 perlDreamer That's the string "Perl 5" from S03's head1 "Changes to Perl 5 operators"
02:29 TimToady It's using non-breaking space there.
02:30 diakopter so perhaps the smartlink matcher could convert the match string to match spaces or non-breaking spaces
02:30 TimToady makes sense to me.
02:31 TimToady using nbsp there makes the pod a lot more readable than other ways of preventing people having to read about Perl
02:31 TimToady 5
02:32 TimToady or, for that matter, Perl
02:32 TimToady 6
02:33 TimToady on the other hand, I recently discovered that PerlMonks translates it to ordinary space instead of  , which I find irritating.
02:34 TimToady gotta go cook dinner &
02:34 perlDreamer Thanks for the help.
02:34 Juerd TimToady: Probably because of their rather strict views on browser width resizability
02:36 Juerd TimToady: They even wrap code blocks to a user-configurable width
02:36 Juerd TimToady: Which by default is <80 :(
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02:37 riffraff hello
02:38 riffraff sorry bout the dummy question but I was experimenthing with perl6 through pugs and there is something I don't understand: +@lst is supposed to give me the length of an array, right?
02:43 perlDreamer are there any unicode hackers online tonight?
02:46 TimToady I'm still wandering in and out while I try not to burn dinner...
02:46 TimToady riffraff: yes, that is correct.
02:47 TimToady Juerd: I don't think turning Perl 6 into a 6-letter word is hazardous to their word-wrap policy...
02:48 TimToady It's just they don't really believe in Unicode yet.
02:48 riffraff ok, then if @foo is a list of lists, shouldn't  sort { +$_}, @foo return the list sorted by size of the elements/lists?
02:49 TimToady yes, it should
02:49 * perlDreamer goes looking for the sort synopsis/apocalypse
02:50 TimToady except, you still have the problem that the return value is sorted as a string
02:50 TimToady I don't think pugs recognizes that {+...} sorts as numeric yet.
02:50 riffraff ah! here's the problem of course, thanks a lot
02:51 TimToady so length 11 sorts before length 2
02:53 riffraff yup, I understand
02:55 perlDreamer so how would one ask Perl to include utf8 in \s (in Perl 5)?
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03:00 perlDreamer so that I can make smartlinks.pl work with utf8 characters in the P6 synopses?
03:01 TimToady It already is, I think.
03:02 perlDreamer We'll try the straight-forward approach then
03:02 TimToady well, maybe not.
03:03 TimToady needs a "use utf8;"
03:03 TimToady no, wait, that's only for the literal I put in.
03:03 TimToady should work already on normal data from the outside...checking...
03:06 TimToady need to make sure the filehandle is reading it in as utf8
03:07 perlDreamer it's getting more fun.  The smartlinks data structure contains strings used as hash key lookups into a parse tree of the Synopsys POD.
03:07 perlDreamer I need to have my arms all the way around it first
03:08 diakopter oops.  sorry I assumed the strings were feeding a regex. :/
03:08 perlDreamer some of them are
03:08 perlDreamer so it has to do both
03:09 perlDreamer maybe it's easier to translate the incoming data from utf8 to ascii
03:09 perlDreamer so long as the output is preserved correctly.
03:09 perlDreamer either that, or we embed the nbsp in the smartlink and annotate it so that people don't get fooled
03:10 riffraff mh.. I guess pugs does not support typed containers / GADT at the moment, am I right?
03:13 TimToady if the smart links are patterns, then use . maybe.
03:14 TimToady riffraff: I think most of that is waiting on MO integration
03:15 riffraff nice to know, thank you again
03:16 perlDreamer TimToady: that would work except for the hash keys lookups.  We could write a whitespace tolerant tied hash...
03:18 * diakopter waits for TimToady to whip up a whitespace-tolerant tied hash and nopaste it
03:28 svnbot6 r14949 | perlDreamer++ | This test's smartlink did not have errors, except for a UTF8
03:28 svnbot6 r14949 | perlDreamer++ | non-breaking character.  Be on the lookout for this near Perl 5
03:28 svnbot6 r14949 | perlDreamer++ | and Perl 6 in section headers and literal text.
03:29 diakopter karma perlDreamer
03:29 jabbot diakopter: perlDreamer has karma of 11
03:34 diakopter karma TimToady
03:34 jabbot diakopter: TimToady has karma of 38
03:34 svnbot6 r14950 | perlDreamer++ | more UTF8 whitespace in smartlinks
03:34 diakopter karma audreyt
03:34 jabbot diakopter: audreyt has karma of 2761
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03:35 perlDreamer do pugs people prefer topical commits (all changes from 1 set of changes in 1 commit) or file based commits (change 1 thing in 5 files with 5 commits)?
03:45 TimToady pugs people prefer commits
03:53 perlDreamer TimToady:  Are you pretty familiar with the Synopses?
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03:53 perlDreamer Is the table of smart matches exhaustive?
03:59 perlDreamer for example, I don't see where this case is spelled out
03:59 perlDreamer %hash5 ~~ "foo"
04:00 perlDreamer which to me looks a lot like Hash Junction hash key slice existence
04:03 TimToady that's just a Hash/Any
04:04 TimToady And, um, yes, I'm pretty familiar with the Synopses...
04:05 TimToady I know many of the authors...
04:05 perlDreamer Cool.
04:06 perlDreamer You're in the authors file.
04:06 perlDreamer That makes twice in ten years that you've helped me.
04:06 perlDreamer Thank you
04:06 TimToady yer welcome twice then.
04:07 perlDreamer the last time was on comp.lang.perl (actually longer than 10 years ago)
04:07 perlDreamer From UUNET to IRC.  I wonder what the next 10 holds...
04:08 TimToady lots of surprises, I don't doubt.
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05:04 svnbot6 r14951 | perlDreamer++ | all existing smart links resolved
05:07 svnbot6 r14952 | perlDreamer++ | remove smart links cleanup from t/TASKS
05:47 perlDreamer karma perlDreamer
05:47 jabbot perlDreamer: perlDreamer has karma of 14
05:47 perlDreamer not bad for day 1.  Thanks to all for your help and patience.
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08:16 xinming hello, Please.. anyone here would give me a suggestion on using irssi through a good proxy? >_< It's really a pain which is living without irc.
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11:34 pmurias karma pmurias
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11:39 dduncan karma my
11:39 jabbot dduncan: my has karma of 1
11:39 dduncan karma karma
11:39 jabbot dduncan: karma has neutral karma
11:40 dduncan karma dduncan
11:40 jabbot dduncan: dduncan has karma of 16
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11:42 ofer0 karma ofer0
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12:32 riffraff hi everyone
12:34 riffraff dummy question: why sort() defaults to stringification oredering instead of relying on <=> ?
12:36 luqui well, which one should it rely on?
12:36 luqui <=> is numeric..
12:38 riffraff I thought <=> was a multi operator defined for every kind of class.. and if it's not defined an error seems reasonable as default (i.e. can't order Complex numbers)
12:38 luqui hmm, spec* ?
12:39 luqui (that would certainly make me happy)
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12:40 riffraff you mean "where do I got this idea?" sadly, I don't know, possibly I made it up :/
12:40 luqui I'm looking it up
12:41 luqui <=> is the numeric one
12:41 luqui leg is the string one
12:41 luqui cmp is the generic one
12:41 luqui see S03, line 430
12:41 TSa HaloO Luke
12:42 luqui hello TSa
12:42 riffraff indeed it says that sort should default to cmp
12:42 * luqui wonders about 3 cmp "40"
12:42 luqui er, 30 cmp "30"
12:42 luqui etc.
12:44 TSa depends on how &infix:<cmp>:(Int,Str) is defined
12:44 luqui yeah, that's what I wonder about
12:44 TSa Hmm, does it numerify the Str or does it stringify the Int
12:45 luqui I have always wanted Int to be a subtype of Str
12:45 luqui (which would imply stringification of Int)
12:45 riffraff I hope it raises an exception
12:45 luqui but I think I was argued out of that at some point
12:45 TSa in your example it doesn't matter
12:45 luqui right, I didn't want to think hard enough to come up with an example where it did :-)
12:45 TSa Int <: Str ? why that
12:45 luqui that's essentially what all the autocoersion complexity is doing
12:46 luqui just say "every string that looks like an Int is an Int"
12:47 luqui ahh, that be the problem.  pugs thinks cmp is string comparison
12:47 luqui ?eval 30 cmp 4
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12:47 evalbot_r14952 -1
12:48 TSa I think numerifying the Str is saner
12:49 TSa how should a string like 'blah' be handled? 0 or NaN?
12:49 luqui TSa, exactly...
12:49 luqui 'blah' is not an int
12:49 luqui but '42' is
12:49 luqui so if you say 'blah' + 3, it ought to be an error
12:50 luqui but I guess some people might have a problem with that (I wouldn't)
12:52 TSa is NaN an exception? Or would NaN + 3 just maintain the NaN?
12:52 luqui I think it behaves like Nullity ;-)
12:52 luqui (i.e. maintain the NaN)
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13:31 svnbot6 r14953 | luqui++ | Bring pugs up-to-date on cmp and sort semantics.
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13:33 metaperl after downloading audreyt's ghc-6.6 for macosx, how do you install it?
13:38 metaperl ok cool, the INSTALL instructions were for a binary install. they appear to have worked
13:44 Juerd TimToady: :)
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17:51 gaal 4http://homepages.cwi.nl/~ralf/JavaGI/
17:51 lambdabot Title: JavaGI: Generalized Interfaces for Java
17:51 gaal s/^4//
17:52 tumulus joined perl6
17:52 tumulus hello!
17:52 tumulus If I may, I have a Perl 6/Pugs question that arose out of a typo
17:53 tumulus 4++ gives an error as expected, but ++4 does not - is that Perl 6 magic I've not found in the synopses, or just a pugs bug?
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17:53 tumulus ?eval 4++
17:53 evalbot_r14952 is now known as evalbot_r14953
17:53 evalbot_r14953 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 4
17:53 tumulus ?eval ++4
17:53 evalbot_r14953 4
17:53 gaal looks like a bug to me. could you add a test please?
17:53 gaal (do you have a commit bit?)
17:54 tumulus surely can, but no :-)
17:54 gaal so /msg me your email address please
17:55 gaal you need to be registered in freenode to do that
17:55 tumulus doh!
17:55 gaal yeah :(
17:55 tumulus well, marty at cpan.org should work fine :-)
17:56 gaal invitation sent :) please add yourself to AUTHORS
17:56 tumulus thank you
17:58 gaal youwelcome
17:58 gaal you're welcome
17:58 gaal i gotta vamoose for a bit
18:09 svnbot6 r14954 | andara++ | [runpugs]
18:09 svnbot6 r14954 | andara++ | -be kind to feather: better management of preloaded sessions.
18:09 svnbot6 r14954 | andara++ | Please test the devel version: http://feather.perl6.nl:8080/runpugs/
18:09 svnbot6 r14954 | andara++ | -fixed non-interactive runpugs, now at
18:09 svnbot6 r14954 | andara++ | http://feather.perl6.nl:8080/cgi-bin/runp6script
18:09 lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
18:09 svnbot6 r14955 | tumulus++ | Adding my name to check commit bit
18:09 lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
18:14 svnbot6 r14956 | tumulus++ | test pre/post inc/decrement on literal values
18:16 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
18:16 diakopter does anyone know if goto is implemented in pugs?
18:25 tumulus I believe goto sub is, but goto label isn't
18:45 diakopter found another bug with the smartlinks
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19:12 diakopter andara: are you there
19:20 andara diakopter: yes, though on&off
19:22 diakopter is runpugs doing window/tab-close detection?  I wrote a .js that has a onunload handler that reliably detects window/tab close events in firefox and ie with no false positives.  you could use it to send a background get/post to a url that notifies the server to kill a runpugs session that's no longer wanted.
19:23 diakopter (we use it at work to detect closed windows to kill persistent websphere sessions)
19:23 andara diakopter: that sounds great. At the moment runpugs doesn't detect window/tab close. It just times out and then cleans up.
19:23 diakopter oh.  how long is the timeout
19:25 andara diakopter: 10' at the moment -- had to check that :-)
19:27 andara diakopter: your script would be really helpful. Could you add it to the repository?
19:27 diakopter of course, you could have it trigger the killsession post on every onunload, since you can probably assume that if someone is navigating to another page from the same window/tab, they probably don't want to retain their runpugs session.
19:27 diakopter whereas with standard web applications, you can't really assume that
19:27 diakopter although, I'm not sure how runpugs works - does it do posts/reloads or background ajax
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19:28 andara diakopter: it uses post in a hidded inline frame
19:28 diakopter ah
19:28 andara s/hidded/hidden/
19:28 andara one of the TODOs is to use proper AJAX :-)
19:29 diakopter I'm not sure if an enclosed iframe causes the parent to do onunload
19:30 diakopter http://www.ajaxtoolbox.com/request/source.php   is my favorite drop-in xmlhttprequest-only api.  
19:30 lambdabot Title: Ajax Toolbox / XMLHttpRequest AjaxRequest Library / Source
19:31 andara diakopter: have to go now. I'd very much like to have a look at your script. cheers!
19:31 diakopter ok.  i'll nopaste it sometime when you're around
19:32 andara ok, thanks.
19:40 pasteling "diakopter" at 64.79.206.82 pasted "js window/tab closing onunload handler" (24 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/22051
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20:18 ravehanker Show off your Programming Skills and Walk away with 1000USD on new year's eve! go to http://opc.kurukshetra.org.in
20:18 lambdabot Title: Online Programming Contest
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20:22 Juerd Fscking spammers
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21:24 svnbot6 r14957 | Ovid++ | Add comments to show a better solution when subsets are available.
21:24 svnbot6 r14958 | Ovid++ | Solve permutation problem
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21:25 svnbot6 r14959 | Ovid++ | Oops.  Some of the auto-generated tests didn't compile.  Fixed.
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22:47 perlDreamer There is a note in t/operator/inc.t:Verify that addition/subtraction properly upgrade to doubles.
22:47 perlDreamer These tests are only significant on machines with 32 bit longs,
22:47 perlDreamer and two s complement negation, but should not fail anywhere.
22:47 perlDreamer is this a pugs-ism or is it Perl 6?
22:48 perlDreamer sorry, is that upgrade to doubles particular to pugs, or is it for all implementations of perl 6?
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23:10 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
23:17 svnbot6 r14960 | luqui++ | Tpyo in runpugs help.
23:19 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
23:47 perlDreamer ?1+2
23:47 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
23:47 perlDreamer @list
23:47 lambdabot http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au​/~dons/lambdabot/COMMANDS
23:47 perlDreamer ? 1+2
23:49 dduncan ?eval 1+2
23:49 evalbot_r14953 is now known as evalbot_r14960
23:49 evalbot_r14960 3
23:49 dduncan perlDreamer, that's how you do it
23:50 perlDreamer ah, thanks
23:50 allbery_b gotta be careful, at least two bots respond to leading ? (but lambdabot only speaks haskell, not perl)
23:50 perlDreamer ?eval |('a','b','c')
23:50 evalbot_r14960 ("a", "b", "c")
23:51 perlDreamer ?eval $aa = |('a','b','c'); say $aa
23:51 evalbot_r14960 OUTPUT[a b c␤] Bool::True
23:53 TimToady why didn't it require a "my", I wonder...
23:54 TimToady ?eval $x = 1
23:54 evalbot_r14960 \1
23:54 luqui weird
23:54 TimToady maybe it's non-strict
23:54 luqui is that even implemented?
23:54 luqui ?eval use strict; $x = 1
23:54 TimToady used to always complain without my
23:54 evalbot_r14960 Error: *** Unsafe function 'use' called under safe mode␤    at -e line 16, column 7-68
23:54 luqui aww
23:55 perlDreamer ?eval ($aa) = |('a','b','c'); say $aa
23:55 evalbot_r14960 OUTPUT[a␤] Bool::True
23:56 perlDreamer ?eval ($aa) = ('a', 'b', 'c'); say $aa
23:56 evalbot_r14960 OUTPUT[a␤] Bool::True
23:56 perlDreamer interesting
23:56 TimToady | would be a no-op there
23:56 luqui ?eval ('a','b','c') === <a b c>  # easier to write
23:56 evalbot_r14960 Bool::True
23:57 perlDreamer there's a test (t/operator/splat.t) that uses that syntax.
23:57 perlDreamer maybe it's not such a good test :)
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23:59 TimToady the | operator really only makes a difference when interpolating into a capture context that has to lazily decide where the argument boundaries are.

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