Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-01-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:52 upd :))
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03:13 bucky heya upd.. are you the geologist?
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08:08 riffraff hi
08:09 Tene hi
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09:14 masak http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=592693
09:14 lambdabot Title: Ten Predictions for Perl in 2007
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09:15 agentzh Alias, audreyt: Pugs New Commit Curve for 2005: http://perlcabal.org/agent/svn-2005-all.gif
09:16 agentzh and also the one for the year 2006: http://perlcabal.org/agent/svn-2006-all.gif
09:17 masak agentzh: they look very similar
09:17 masak , up to and including year number
09:17 agentzh note that they're not accumulated results, so may be not so encouraging.
09:17 agentzh masak: oh sorry
09:17 agentzh my mistake...
09:18 agentzh fixing now
09:18 masak agentzh: np, just pointing it out
09:18 agentzh nice catch
09:18 agentzh thanks
09:18 agentzh fixed
09:19 agentzh it's fun to see the commit curves fit the corresponding #perl6 msg curves given here:
09:19 agentzh http://perlcabal.org/agent/irc-2005.gif
09:19 agentzh and http://perlcabal.org/agent/irc-2006.gif
09:20 agentzh i've tried very hard to make sure the data used are accurate. ;-)
09:20 masak also interesting is to note that the commit curves match my approximate memory of the activity over here
09:20 agentzh :) me too
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09:21 masak i.e., highest during spring of 2005 and autumn 2006
09:21 agentzh nod
09:22 agentzh i'll try to plot curves for *accumulated* data for both the number of committers and the number of commits, so that audreyt can use them in her slides. :)
09:23 masak :)
09:23 agentzh the trick is that accumulated curves never go downward. :)
09:24 masak as long as the people who lie with statistics are on my side, I have no complaints
09:24 agentzh lol
09:25 agentzh these images are for my data-mining reports. school--
09:26 agentzh to be honest, i'd rather study fglock's miniperl6 and work on the pugs test suite than draw silly pictures. :(
09:26 masak aye
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09:27 agentzh got an exam in the evening. gotta run for supper &
09:27 masak agentzh: good luck on the exam
09:27 agentzh masak: thanks!
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10:15 fglock the plan for intermediate-perl6 today is: everything is pluggable
10:16 fglock starting with grammar, object system, and the workflow itself
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10:38 Juerd Everything is pluggable in Perl 5 too.
10:38 Juerd It's hot plugging that's really neat :)
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11:02 fglock Juerd: hot plugging - as long as I find out how :)
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11:34 riffraff do we have math functions like pow() in pugs?
11:35 Tene ?eval 3**4
11:35 evalbot_r14991 81/1
11:35 Tene ?eval pow(3,4)
11:35 evalbot_r14991 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&pow"
11:36 avar ?eval &infix:<**>(3,4)
11:36 evalbot_r14991 81/1
11:36 * riffraff slaps forehead
11:36 riffraff of course ** I forgot about it
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11:51 gaal riffraff: src/Pugs/Prim.hs and src/perl6/Prelude.pm are your friends :-)
11:54 fglock is this the right way to modify the syntax lexically?  my multi infix:<+> ...
11:55 gaal i believe so
11:55 fglock my macro ...
11:55 fglock ok
11:58 riffraff gaal, thanks for the pointer :)
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12:23 fglock I'm looking for a name for a language between mini-perl6 and perl6
12:23 fglock mp62
12:24 Tene kinda-perl6
12:27 fglock kp6
12:27 fglock nice :)
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12:38 gaal midi-perl6 :-p
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12:48 riffraff the  for loop as a way to choose a step size? or, possible there is a stepping(Seq,Int) function somewhere, or am I just stupid for thinking of this?
12:48 riffraff s/as/has/
12:50 Tene yes, there is a way
12:52 * Tene checking
12:53 riffraff (suspance)
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12:55 Tene Hmm.  Looks like it's not implemented in pugs.
12:56 Tene ?eval 1..10:by(2)
12:56 evalbot_r14991 Error: ␤Unexpected ":by"␤expecting "_", fraction, exponent, term postfix or operator
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12:59 riffraff I see, it's ok
13:04 svnbot6 r14992 | fglock++ | kp6 - wishlist
13:06 pasteling "riffraff" at 83.187.202.204 pasted "naive prime test in perl6" (49 lines, 1.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/22113
13:06 riffraff anyone wants to comment? trying to solve problem 31 of 99 problems, and I don't want to implement AKS, but this seems to ugly
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13:14 masak riffraff: I'm thinking maybe remove the line return True  if $num < 4;
13:15 riffraff it would not work I think
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13:15 masak no, I see that now
13:15 riffraff then I'd have to check explicitly for 2 and 3
13:15 masak at least for 2, yes
13:15 riffraff yup, for 2 and then  3 can be checked in the for
13:15 diakopte1 Dividable (sp) Divisible
13:15 masak for 3, the for loop is a no-op as of now
13:16 riffraff diakopte1, ah yep :)
13:16 masak sine floor(sqrt(3)) is 1
13:16 masak s/sine/since/
13:16 riffraff ah rthat should ceil
13:17 masak riffraff: I'd remove the evenness test and the 2,3-special case and start the for loop from 2 instead
13:17 masak that'd work, no?
13:17 riffraff mh.. no, it would go 2,4,6
13:18 masak riffraff: 'course. you're right
13:18 riffraff this thing is pesky
13:18 riffraff :)
13:18 masak couldn't you just do 2, 3..$max:by(2) ?
13:18 riffraff we just checked that :by(2) does not work it seem
13:19 riffraff otherwise I'd love to do that
13:19 masak riffraff: yes, but disregarding that for a while
13:19 masak oh, wait. it still doesn't work for checking two
13:20 masak I'm beginning to believe your code is the simplest
13:20 diakopte1 can you paste what you have now
13:21 riffraff diakopte1, is the same as above, just with ceil instead of floor and Divsible instyead of dividable
13:21 masak riffraff: I say keep :by(2) and have one of the lambdacamels implement it in pugs soonish
13:22 masak riffraff: why ceil instead of floor?
13:22 masak floor seems ok by me
13:22 diakopte1 you don't need the return False if $num % 2 == 0 line since you're already skipping every even number
13:23 riffraff diakopte1, yes, but than I'd get return True in the end after the loop
13:23 diakopte1 oh, I see
13:24 riffraff masak, I can0t exactly remember why I had that..
13:24 masak riffraff: with ceil, you'd sometimes go one number past the square root
13:24 masak with floor, you sometimes stop on the number before
13:24 masak but only when the square root is non-integral, so it doesn't matter
13:25 masak I say go with floor
13:26 riffraff true
13:31 svnbot6 r14993 | fglock++ | kp6 - wishlist update
13:33 fglock kolibrie: re http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/p​erl6?date=2007-01-03,Wed&amp;sel=696#l1034 - mp6 is bootstrapped: the compiler, emitter, and grammar engine are written in mp6
13:33 lambdabot Title: #perl6 2007-01-03,Wed, http://tinyurl.com/y6wjfb
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13:39 kolibrie fglock: I thought you said you were attempting to bootstrap (a few days ago) and that it failed - what was that then?
13:40 fglock that was mp6-MO
13:40 fglock which is now kp6
13:40 fglock with a different internal architecture
13:40 kolibrie ahh
13:41 kolibrie 'k' means?
13:41 fglock it compiles with mp6, because kp6 is not bootstrapped
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13:41 fglock 'Kinda'
13:41 kolibrie :)
13:42 fglock Tene++
13:42 kolibrie and you are refactoring kp6 to make it more modern?
13:43 fglock I still can't find out what they mean by 'modern' :)
13:43 fglock the workflow is pluggable, so it modern-able
13:43 svnbot6 r14994 | gabriele++ | prob#31 solved with naive primality test could use update when 1..n:by(s) is implemented
13:44 fglock s/it/it is/
13:44 kolibrie it's like art history, they invent all these terms meaning the new thing, but then it only lasts a few years
13:45 kolibrie oh, I tried to use /[:i ...]/ yesterday with PCR and it died
13:46 fglock I think it is parsed, but it is not implemented in the emitter
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13:47 kolibrie I think it was the emitter that gave up the ghost
13:48 fglock it would be nice to have a rewrite of PCR to plain P6 (already started as the MP6 grammar engine)
13:49 kolibrie that's why I looked at mp6 initially, but without inheritance, I had to go back to PCR
13:50 kolibrie I suppose I can upgrade whenever kp6 is ready
13:51 kolibrie my p6 grammar stuff is installed and goes live (today?)
13:51 fglock it would be easy to hack inheritance to mp6
13:52 fglock but that would encourage people to contribute to a temporary step, instead of the main project
13:52 * kolibrie does not want to slow down the main project
13:53 kolibrie or have people get too dependant on a hacked version so that bugs become depended on
13:54 leed Is C<my constant int $foo;> or C<my int $foo is readonly;> implemented in Pugs?
13:54 leed or not yet?
13:55 fglock mp6 was meant to provide the compiler to build p6-on-p6, so that we don't need to write it using perl5/parrot/haskell
13:55 fglock of course we could have started with pugs, but mp6 is cool because it is bootstrapped
13:56 * kolibrie likes writing in perl6 - he doesn't feel very adequate in the haskell world yet
13:56 fglock leed: you can try here using ?eval
13:57 fglock ?eval my int $foo = 2
13:57 evalbot_r14994 \2
13:57 fglock ?eval my constant int $foo = 2
13:58 evalbot_r14994 Error: ␤Unexpected "int"␤expecting "("
14:01 masak ?eval my $foo is ro
14:01 evalbot_r14994 \undef
14:01 masak ?eval my $foo is ro = 2
14:01 evalbot_r14994 \2
14:01 masak seems to work.
14:01 leed audreyt: Is C<my constant int $foo;> or C<my int $foo is readonly;> implemented in Pugs?
14:01 masak I'm still a bit uneasy over those references to constants, though
14:02 gaal leed: I think not.
14:02 masak leed: as you can see above, C<my $foo is ro> seems to work
14:03 masak at least syntactically
14:03 gaal ?eval my $foo is ro = 2; $foo++
14:03 evalbot_r14994 2
14:03 masak heh :)
14:03 gaal ?eval my $foo is ro = 2; ++$foo;
14:03 masak no error, though
14:03 evalbot_r14994 3
14:03 gaal it doesn't work.
14:03 masak it parses, but is a no-op
14:03 gaal it uses the old parser for vardecl though
14:04 gaal the wonderful thing is that vardecl and function signatures have been unified
14:04 gaal but that hasn't fully hit pugs yet
14:13 masak gaal: that sounds wonderful
14:13 masak is there anywhere I can read about that?
14:13 * masak misses audreyt's blog entries
14:18 leed I just want to confirm.
14:21 leed Maybe it's a realy stupid question.
14:22 masak leed: probably not, always a good idea to check with audreyt
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14:38 kolibrie leed: the way to check is find a test that tests what you are looking for, or write one, and then check the smoke logs
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14:42 masak t/operators/range.t would probably be a good place for the test in this particular case
14:43 masak I don't see anything 'bout :by() in it
14:43 masak btw, will 'a'..'z':by(2) work?
14:43 * masak guesses "yes"
14:50 riffraff It should, you can implement :by easily given an iteration routine, and range should always provide that I think
14:51 leed fglock: looks like C<my int $foo is readonly;> works, but C<my int ($foo, $foo2) is readonly;> not
14:51 leed fglock: OK, my revised question: Is C<my int ($foo, $foo2) is readonly;> implement in Pugs?
14:55 leed looks like C<readonly> in redeclare is no-op
14:55 leed anyway, thank you all
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15:01 leed masak: OK, but after I know enough about Pugs :-)
15:04 fglock leed: my int ($foo, $foo2) is readonly; - does not seem to be implemented
15:04 masak leed: not sure what that was a reply to, but I guess you're right :)
15:04 masak just dive in
15:05 riffraff to load a file foo.t that is in the same directory of bar.t what should I do? I think I should add the dirname of the file to @INC but I don't have a clue on how to do that
15:08 masak hm, seems that t/operators/adverbial_modifiers.t contains a lot of :by tests already
15:08 svnbot6 r14995 | masak++ | [t/operators/range.t]
15:08 svnbot6 r14995 | masak++ | * added test for :by
15:11 svnbot6 r14996 | masak++ | [t/operators/range.t]
15:11 svnbot6 r14996 | masak++ | * removed test and inserted reference to t/operators/adverbial_modifiers.t
15:13 riffraff where is something that tells how many tests are passing/failing ?
15:13 riffraff I mean, for the whole pugs codebase
15:13 masak you can run "make test"
15:14 riffraff eheh yah
15:14 riffraff I meant for the svn HEAD
15:14 [particle] smoke.pugscode.org
15:14 riffraff without me updating and recompiling which at the moment I can't do
15:14 riffraff ah thank you [particle]
15:15 * masak is so used to constantly updating and recompiling that he sometimes forgets that not everyone does that :)
15:22 leed kolibrie: thanks, I'll check that
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15:31 leed C<grep -nR readonly *> under pugs/t can't match what I want
15:31 leed maybe I use wrong pattern
15:34 kolibrie might be 'ro' instead of 'readonly'
15:34 kolibrie or 'is ro' might be better
15:36 kolibrie fgrep -R 'is ro' pugs/t
15:36 kolibrie looks like t/syntax/signature.t has a little bit
15:43 leed kolibrie: thanks for your hint, but as fglock says, C<my int ($foo, $foo2) is ro = (1,2);> looks like doesn't implement yet
15:49 kolibrie leed: this is where patience comes in, or learning haskell
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16:09 * masak always wanted to learn haskell
16:09 masak maybe it would be a good project to track the history of pugs, write an essay on its development, and learn a bit of haskell in the process
16:09 masak I mean, all the history is preserved in the svn repo
16:09 masak it's just a matter of digging
16:10 leed kolibrie: I'm learning Haskell right now
16:10 leed :-)
16:13 masak leed++ # for learning haskell
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16:24 * avar would much rather like a lisp like format in perl6 core rather than sprintf:)
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16:28 gnuvince print "foo~%"
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16:37 avar ?eval "foo~%"
16:37 evalbot_r14996 "foo~\%"
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18:47 gaal masak: I think the Tokyo hackathon from 1yr ago was where it was specced
18:47 gaal the good news is that the Signature parser already exists
18:48 gaal ?eval :(Int $x: $y? = 42)
18:48 evalbot_r14996 CCall "perl" CaptMeth {c_invocant = VPure (SigMethSingle {s_invocant = MkParam {p_variable = "$x", p_types = [(mkType "Int")], p_constraints = [], p_unpacking = Nothing, p_default = <ParamDefault:Nothing>, p_label = "x", p_slots = fromList [], p_hasAccess = AccessRO, p_isRef = False, p_isContext = False, p_isLazy = False}, s_requiredPositionalCount = 0, s_requiredNames = fromList [], s_positionalList = [MkParam {p_variable = "$y", p_types = [], p_
18:48 gaal behind th ugly dump lies a pretty powerful structure
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19:04 masak gaal: I believe you
19:04 masak quick question, though: are there not places where function signatures apply, but variable declarations don't?
19:05 masak I find it hard to believe that they are in all manners identical
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19:07 TimToady if used in a non-declarative context the variable names are mere commentary.
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19:09 TimToady alternately, we require the variables to be declared before that, and the sig only rebinds them.
19:09 TimToady I can argue that both ways.
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19:13 TimToady so "when :($a: $b, *@c)" would not create variables...
19:14 TimToady but "when my ($a: $b, *@c) would
19:14 TimToady if we consider "my Sig" to fall into the Signature category in the smartmatch table.
19:15 TimToady also availabe is "when -> $a, *@b {...} {...}"
19:15 TimToady where the variables would be bound in the first block but not the second.
19:17 TimToady that falls out of Code smartmatching
19:17 TimToady the second block wouldn't be executed unless the first returned true, however, by the current rules.
19:18 TimToady one would kinda like to have a form where the mere binding is the smartmatch success, and there's only the first block.
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19:19 masak I somehow sense that this may have been an answer to my question
19:19 masak if so, I fail to apply it sufficiently to my worldview
19:19 masak a bit too abstract for me :/
19:20 masak maybe if I saw it in a piece of code, it would fall into place
19:20 masak but right now, I'm still wondering if var decl and sigs are not sufficiently different beasts
19:21 masak still, treating them as underlyingly the same intrigues me somehow
19:22 TimToady I see lots of value in the unification.  What's not clear is what the failure modes are from the user point of view, and how appropriate error messages can keep that from being a problem.
19:22 TimToady "You didn't really declare $foo at line 42"
19:25 TimToady there's a similar problem with return type declarations: sub foo (Int $x, Int $y --> Int $z)
19:26 TimToady can the sub body then assign to $z?
19:26 TimToady instead of "my $result = ...; return $result"?
19:27 TimToady or is the "z" part merely commentary?
19:28 [particle] the perl 5 way would have probably been to allow both assigning to $z, and returning
19:28 gaal masak: first, think of the sig minilanguage as a nice way to spec that from here on you can call certain things by a name
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19:29 gaal give them default values or require someone else to tell you what their values are
19:29 gaal when you have code that says "my $x = 42"
19:30 gaal it's shorthand for "this is a my declaration using the sig :($x? = 42)"
19:30 [particle] TimToady: do p6 subs return the value of the last statement?
19:30 gaal (or is that spelled "$x = 42?" now? don't remember)
19:30 TimToady yes
19:31 gaal masak: so when eg you have something like my ($x!) := sub_returning_a_capture()
19:31 gaal if the capture could not be used to bind $x, it's a failure
19:32 TimToady you don't need both ? and a default.  ? stands for "= undef" more or less.
19:33 gaal oh, yes of course.
19:33 gaal but if you want to put in the redundant ?, is it still before the = ?
19:34 TimToady before
19:34 gaal also: there is one proviso regradingthe sig<->vardecl unification, which is that sig params default to mandatory, and vardecls default to optional :)
19:35 masak gaal: yes. that's a semantic difference -- somehow I find them easy to swallow
19:35 masak it's the syntactic differences I'm worried about, for some reason
19:35 masak for example:
19:36 masak isn't it a convention that you have to explicitly give every parameter in a signature a type
19:36 gaal certianly not!
19:36 masak whereas in vardecls you can sometimes bunch several vars of the same type together?
19:36 gaal not in Perl anyway :)
19:36 gaal the defualt is Any
19:36 masak something like int a, b, c;
19:37 gaal int $a, int $b, int $c in p6, but yes
19:37 TimToady or "my int ($a,$b,$c) = ..."
19:37 gaal if you don't give a type, it's like you said Any $x etc.
19:37 masak TimToady: yes. would that syntax work in a parameter list as well?
19:37 TimToady no
19:37 masak so they're not the same
19:38 TimToady well, not unless you're binding a single parameter
19:38 masak :)
19:38 TimToady that has parts
19:38 gaal oh right i forgot aobut the distribution there
19:38 masak it's stuff like this that worries me
19:38 TimToady and an int doesn't have parts.
19:38 masak places where the two beasts are different
19:38 TimToady so that's not a distributed type anyway.
19:38 masak on the whole, I'm all for it, however
19:39 TimToady sub visit ( Node $node ($left, $right) ) {...}
19:39 TimToady here the types of $left and $right are unspecified, not Node.
19:39 masak what are they? are they parts of $node?
19:39 masak or arguments to it?
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19:40 TimToady they're presumably parts of $node that you want to give names to
19:40 TimToady how it maps the names depends on the actual form of Node
19:41 masak does this have an equivalent in vardecl land?
19:41 TimToady S06:1187 "Unpacking tree node parameters"
19:42 TimToady yes
19:42 TimToady my Node $node ($left, $right) := makenode() should work the same.
19:42 masak cool
19:42 * masak starts to see how this could actually be useful
19:43 masak but not everything carries over, right?
19:43 TimToady thing gets tricky with Sig literals though: :(Node $node ($left, $right))
19:43 masak f'rexample, using returns or -> Int $z wouldn't make much sense in var decls, no?
19:43 TimToady you can smartmatch against a Sig object, but that doesn't declare anything.
19:44 TimToady well, my Node $node is more or less equivalent to my $node --> Node
19:45 TimToady you can declare an "of" type either way
19:45 gaal masak: do you know any haskell?
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19:46 masak gaal: superficially
19:46 gaal it's like patmatch can occur in let-bindings
19:47 * masak sucks on that one
19:47 masak ok
19:47 gaal node@(left, right) <- gimmieANode
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19:48 TimToady MMD in Perl 6 is unordered, and you use a switch statement to do ordered matching against sigs.
19:48 TimToady but the idea is similar
19:49 TimToady gotto go get wet all over for a while &
19:49 TimToady will backlog for any additional Qs.
19:49 TimToady &
20:00 szabgab joined perl6
20:00 szabgab ?eval my @a = (1) >>+<< (3);
20:00 evalbot_r14996 Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
20:01 szabgab why is this ?
20:01 szabgab ?eval my @a = (1,2) >>+<< (3);
20:01 evalbot_r14996 [4, 5]
20:01 [particle] my @a = list (1) >>+<< (3);
20:01 [particle] ?eval my @a = (1) >>+<< (3);
20:01 [particle] crap...
20:01 evalbot_r14996 Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
20:01 [particle] ?eval my @a = list (1) >>+<< (3);
20:02 evalbot_r14996 Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
20:02 szabgab ?eval my @a = list (1) >>+<< list (3);
20:02 evalbot_r14996 Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
20:02 [particle] ?eval my @a = list(1) >>+<< (3);
20:02 evalbot_r14996 Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
20:02 [particle] one more try...
20:02 [particle] ?eval my @a = (1).list >>+<< (3);
20:02 evalbot_r14996 [4,]
20:03 szabgab nice, thanks
20:03 [particle] well, there's a way to enforce list context, at least
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20:59 wolverian TimToady, s,degenate,degenerate, # latest syn patch
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