Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-01-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:01 luqui ahh, that's why you were resistant
00:01 luqui you could go to MAGnet #perl (that's the main #perl channel)
00:01 luqui I think it lives at irc.perl.org
00:02 dduncan what's the relation between MAGnet and irc.perl.org ?
00:03 luqui I think they are the same
00:03 luqui I'm not sure
00:03 dduncan I would just refer to it by the irc.perl.org name
00:03 luqui probably a wise idea
00:08 johnjra luqui: what do you understand by resistant ?
00:08 luqui pardon?
00:08 luqui do you mean what do I mean by that?
00:09 Limbic_Region luqui - don't know if you remember a conversation we had on gmail chat but I told you that you wouldn't be gone from perl 6 for long
00:09 Limbic_Region :-D
00:09 Limbic_Region s/told/predicted/
00:09 luqui I think I remember
00:09 luqui :-)
00:10 Limbic_Region out of curiosity, is there an online way to see the latest commits now that we are using a new repo or is that feature unimplemented?
00:11 Limbic_Region ?seen audreyt
00:11 lambdabot audreyt is in #perl6, #ghc and #haskell. I don't know when audreyt last spoke.
00:11 Limbic_Region has she still been mostly offlinish?
00:12 * Limbic_Region has been on vacation for 3 weeks and unplugged
00:12 johnjra are there projects that i can contribute to? in perl i mean ?
00:13 Limbic_Region johnjra - perl 5 or perl 6
00:13 luqui johnjra, what do you know?
00:13 johnjra Limbic_Region: doesnt matter to me
00:13 luqui (and even if nothing related to programming, there are things you can do)
00:13 johnjra luqui: i know C/C++,i used to know asm/reverse engeneering,i know some math,a little perl
00:14 Limbic_Region well - phalanx is still going strong from what I know
00:14 Limbic_Region that is a good perl 5 project to work on
00:14 luqui johnjra, if you like C, you can work on parrot
00:14 luqui (the virtual machine for perl 6)
00:16 johnjra wuts phalanx ?
00:17 johnjra and by working on projects in perl i meant projects written in perl,not working on languages perl-like,or even perl,jut written in perl
00:18 luqui ahh
00:19 johnjra so ?
00:19 luqui I don't really know of any
00:19 johnjra well that is sad
00:19 luqui (except perl 6 is getting to the point where we are writing it in perl)
00:19 luqui you should look at phalanx, I guess
00:20 luqui http://qa.perl.org/phalanx/
00:20 lambdabot Title: The Phalanx Project - qa.perl.org:
00:21 Limbic_Region thanks luqui - was afk
00:24 johnjra seems #phalanx moved
00:27 Juerd http://photo.juerd.nl/verkeer/velperbroek.png  # This is what I'm wasting my time on nowadays
00:27 Juerd Drawing road signs.
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00:28 luqui automatedly?
00:29 Juerd No, with Inkscape
00:29 luqui (I felt automatically was too boring a word)
00:29 Juerd This is experimental design, so I very seldomly draw the same structure twice
00:29 luqui oh.  how... interesting
00:30 diakopter Limbic_Region: the author of SVN::Web is hosting a version of SVN::Web that has Pugs as one of the repositories it reflects:  http://jc.ngo.org.uk/svnweb/pugs/log   However, the server is quite slow.
00:30 Juerd It's a weird obsession.
00:30 lambdabot Title: log: /pugs (Rev: HEAD, via SVN::Web)
00:30 Juerd I'm mostly just frustrated with the current overhead signs.
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01:18 dduncan question: is Pugs currently using the newest metamodel (a 6.28.0-release feature) or is it still on last year's?
01:18 dduncan I was wondering whether that nice introspection stuff was available yet
01:21 Limbic_Region diakopter thanks - looking now
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02:11 shmonk Heyho
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02:29 shmonk Does anyone know a good perl6 syntax file for vim?
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03:01 TimToady dduncan: no, the metaobject folks have mostly been taking it easy the last month or so, though I believe there is now a MiniPerl6 that has a (slow) MO emitter.
03:01 TimToady fglock++, with an assist by nothingmuch++
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03:41 dduncan thanks for the update
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04:11 robkinyon stevan: ping
04:11 robkinyon audreyt: ping
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06:02 gaal @tell shmonk there's a util/perl6.vim under the pugs tree
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07:55 TimToady_ complete rethink of smartmatching along lines of luqui's suggestion now posted to p6l (as spec!)
07:56 TimToady_ is now known as TimToady
07:57 TimToady s/luqui's/luqui++'s/  :)
08:22 gaal is there anywhere in Perl 6 that "Code:($)" is a valid expression?
08:22 gaal presumably meaning .does(Code) && .sig ~~ :($)
08:25 rindolf Hi TimToady, gaal
08:27 Kattana hmm I like Patterns.
08:29 gaal hello rindolf
08:29 Kattana If that rethink gets implimented I just might have to figure out p6 to try it, I am working a alternative regex.
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08:34 dduncan I tell you, that smartmatch stuff is really maturing ... it seems
08:41 TimToady gaal: dunno if that'll be a legal shorthand.  we do have &foo:(Int,Str) to get a reference to a particular multi, or set of multies.
08:42 TimToady but of course "Code" can't be the basis for such a search.
08:43 TimToady anyway, it was convenient shorthand for the table...
08:44 gaal nodnod
08:44 gaal just wondering :)
08:44 TimToady really we could just call everything as :($) except that :() would fail if we tried to pass $_ to it.
08:48 TimToady arguably if you supply a Code with :($,$) etc we should call it as .(|$_) to try to feed it multiple args.
08:49 TimToady but we an always just have a single parameter of [$a,$b] for that case
08:50 TimToady or declare a capture parameter and deal with it ourselves in the sub.
08:51 TimToady on the other hand Code:($,$) *can't* match unless we | the $_ so maybe we just should dwim it for arity > 1
08:53 TimToady or maybe we should reserve it for pulling multiple values off a for list depending on which sig binds... hmm...
08:56 TimToady we need some general way of saying "match this signature against the capture, pull out everything that got bound, and leave the capture containing what's unbound."
08:57 TimToady when * -> $a, $b, $c, *  {...} is almost beautiful...
08:58 TimToady sub foo ($a, $b, *) {...}; foo(1,2,3,4,5);  # ignores 3,4,5
08:59 TimToady not sure if $cap = \(1,2,3,4,5); foo(|$cap) would successfully leave 3,4,5 in $cap though...
09:00 TimToady heh "foolscap"
09:02 TimToady or splatty parameters in general could leave themselves in the input, which would let us bind to a lookahead parameter in a list:
09:02 TimToady for @foo -> $this, *$next { if $this ne $next {...} }
09:04 TimToady for 1..5 -> $this, *@rest { say @rest } # says 2345 345 45 5
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09:30 TimToady must zzz & # thunk
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10:47 svnbot6 r15009 | kudra++ | Placeholder
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14:26 Juerd "Well, we're in 2007 now.   Perl6 still isn't finished and if you take a look at the discussions it pretty obvious that it has a loooong
14:26 Juerd way to go.   The people working on it (at least some of them) are pretty smart -- that they can't make progress is an indication that
14:26 Juerd the language is too complicated and early decisions were ill-informed.
14:26 Juerd No one wanted parrot, we wanted simple, well-understood, mainstream language features like functions with named parameter lists.
14:26 Juerd Against my better judgment, on the advice of a true believer I've been waiting five years for Perl 6.  No more.  Larry Wall promised us
14:27 Juerd something by Christmas but all we've had is silence.
14:27 Juerd It's time to throw in the towel guys.  Cut your losses, add a few badly needed features to Perl 5, call it Perl 6, and be done with it.
14:27 Juerd I wish I could make this come across better; the Perl 6 people are a bright bunch trying to do a great thing, but it just isn't
14:27 Juerd happening and there comes a point when a change in course is necessary.
14:27 Juerd "
14:27 Juerd Posted on freshmeat in a very old thread
14:27 Juerd http://freshmeat.net/articl​es/view/1339/#comment-42174
14:27 Juerd I think it's sad and funny at the same time
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15:47 masak Juerd: I think it's sad and to be expected at the same time
15:48 masak frankly, I'm also a bit confused by the "by christmas" thing
15:49 masak I would have expected someone in perl6 circles to have made something of the situation
15:49 Juerd I think it's a bloody shame that we as a Perl 6 community fail to communicate the progress to the outside world, but I don't have any ideas for improvement.
15:49 masak what I didn't expect was Christmas and then nothing at all
15:49 masak "nothing" as in "no significant release which could be called 'perl6 alpha'"
15:50 * masak is still hopeful, but understands the impatient reactions from people on the outside
15:50 Juerd Well, I guess momentum's a bit gone
15:50 masak Juerd: that's what I was thinking just a few minutes ago when I went to get some hot chocolate
15:51 masak how to reintroduce the spirit of Feb 2004?
15:51 masak if I could be even a small part of doing that, it would be worth it for me
15:51 masak just to see pugs get rolling again
15:51 Juerd Well, I'm a business guy. I can only think of hiring people, but there's no money :)
15:52 Juerd Motivating people is hard if there's just internet communication.
15:52 masak when pugs is moving along with the synopses, everything else is so mych fun and spirited
15:52 Limbic_Region masak - from the pugs perspective, finding the right catalyst isn't going to be easy
15:52 masak Juerd: how many people besides audreyt have been known to actively hack on the pugs compiler itself?
15:52 Limbic_Region originally, nothing of the spec was implemented so there was a lot to do
15:53 masak Limbic_Region: isn't there still a lot to do?
15:53 Limbic_Region now, a lot of the spec is implemented so now a lot of projects are experiments
15:53 Juerd masak: I don't know. TBH, I haven't been following Pugs development since half 2004.
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15:53 masak hm
15:53 Limbic_Region masak - yes, but it isn't so tangible
15:53 masak Limbic_Region: maybe all the low-hanging fruit has been implemented
15:53 Limbic_Region what would be incredibly stimulating is to invigorate the perl6 -> parrot via pugs project
15:54 masak what I would like to do, more and more, is actually to get a hold of audreyt and interview her about the evolution of pugs
15:54 Limbic_Region and that is the path that I think is being taken
15:54 masak the different stages that the compiler has gone through
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15:54 Limbic_Region but I have been out of the loop for the past 3+ weeks
15:54 Juerd What's holding me back is the lack of real world examples that actually do something, and aren't limited by Pugs's capabilities.
15:54 masak I think that would help me understand pugs better
15:54 Limbic_Region and from what I can tell, audreyt has been mostly too
15:54 masak Limbic_Region: yes
15:55 Juerd It should be easy to derive from Array and build your own implementation. But so far, nobody knows how.
15:55 masak she was here the other day though, backlogging
15:55 Juerd It should be easy to change the grammar and add your own dialect lexically. But how?
15:55 masak Juerd: that's another thing -- the status documents are out of synch
15:55 * Limbic_Region AFK &
15:55 masak basically, they fall behind when nobody's doing any coding
15:56 Juerd A lot of things could use images for better documentation, easier understanding. There are very few.
15:56 Juerd But the fundamental problem is man power.
15:56 masak Juerd: yes
15:56 Juerd Who has the time to do all this?
15:57 Juerd I'm whining about it, but I'm not solving any of it myself.
15:57 masak I liked that JANITORS file idea
15:57 Juerd And that's true for dozens of people.
15:57 masak wherein small tasks requiring little previous knowledge could be put down
15:57 masak and done by people with time
15:58 Juerd Another problem for me personally is that Perl 6 has become so complex that I can no longer grok it. Whenever something is discussed on IRC, people need to point me to the right synopses constantly.
15:59 Juerd Every little thing makes sense by itself, but sometimes I think we would be better off with less complexity in the language, even if that adds complexity elsewhere.
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15:59 Juerd masak: You mean that people with time still exist? :)
16:00 Juerd (It's not just time, though. You also need tuits. Procastrination takes you nowherre.)
16:00 * Juerd is pessimistic about the entire thing. Probably more than he should be.
16:02 masak Juerd: I have time, sometimes
16:03 masak not tuits right now, though
16:03 masak right now I think what would be most needed is a "fresh start"
16:03 Juerd What kind of a fresh start?
16:04 masak someone coming up with something nice which everyone can gawk at, and then saying "come on"
16:04 masak "let's do more of this cool stuff"
16:04 masak sort of like audreyt used to do with her blog entries
16:04 * masak misses audreyt's blog entries
16:04 * Juerd too
16:05 Juerd I wonder why all these projects halt when Audrey's gone.
16:05 Juerd Look at feather's system load right now... 0.40; it's been at 25 because so many people were working on Pugs at the same time
16:06 masak she's the spirited soul that keeps the machinery together
16:06 Juerd Certainly
16:06 masak if she were to come back now, before two hours we would have active development again
16:07 masak question is: could someone else do the same thing? hack on pugs and invigorate people? hardly
16:07 masak audreyt is the healer in our RPG posse of developers
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16:07 Juerd I don't know if anyone could do both
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16:07 Juerd Or if hacking on Pugs itself really is necessary.
16:08 Juerd IIUC, parts of the Perl 6 implementation can now already be written in Perl 6.
16:08 Juerd I have to goa
16:08 Juerd s/a$//
16:08 Juerd Sorry; ttyl
16:09 masak oki
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17:07 * integral wonders if there's anyone who could update STATUS
17:09 Juerd Anyone with commit bit, I think?
17:12 integral sure, to change the file,  but that doesn't mean you know what to put in it
17:12 Juerd I see
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20:49 MaenNJ hi all
20:50 MaenNJ guys, is there any website that gives little details about how perl6 implemented in pugs ?
20:51 MaenNJ for example, the run-time representation of variables
20:55 wolverian did you check the docs/ dir? and the source is always there :)
20:58 MaenNJ should I know haskell to be able to read the source ?
21:03 wolverian depends on how well versed you are in, say, ML, or another language (or maths) that helps. if you aren't, you'll probably want to learn haskell. it won't take too long, really.
21:07 MaenNJ aha ok
21:12 masak wolverian: "it won't take long"? :) what do you base that on?
21:14 wolverian masak, optimism.
21:15 masak :)
21:15 masak wolverian: we all need more of that, I guess
21:16 * masak has too little of that "optimism" thing, and too much of that "impatience" thing right now
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23:02 johnjra wtf is emo ?
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