Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-01-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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01:15 seano (from the "99 problems" tests, #35): am I wrong about "return X if ...", or is this a bug?  Try pf2(4):
01:15 seano sub pf2($n) {
01:15 seano    for 2..floor sqrt $n {
01:15 seano        return ($_, pf2($n/$_)) if $n % $_ == 0;
01:15 seano    }
01:15 seano    return $n;
01:15 seano }
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01:28 TimToady seano: looks like a bug to me.  maybe tail recursion gone awry and not passing the new value?
01:28 seano thanks.  it looks painful to track down, so I figured I'd do a sanity check first :(
01:29 TimToady but maybe there's also a bug in your algorithm.
01:29 seano works in p5...
01:35 seano aha!  $_ is getting clobbered by something ("if", I believe).  Should that happen?
01:38 TimToady works to put result of subcall into a temporary array
01:38 TimToady but that's an if on the front.
01:38 TimToady maybe it's getting confused with "for" statement modifier
01:40 seano "for modifier"?  all I have is an ordinary for statement.  the workaround I used was to use a block parameter on the for: "for blah -> $x { ... }" works.
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01:40 twobitsprite something tells me this isn't the place for parrot questions
01:41 TimToady you don't have one, but if you did, it would be assuming -> $_
01:41 TimToady it seems to be mapping the boolean result to $_
01:41 TimToady #parrot is more likely to have someone who knows the answer
01:42 twobitsprite TimToady: I suppose it depends on how you calculate the probability... if the two people in there are a) not idle, and b) willing, helpful experts...
01:43 TimToady it's sorta like a multimethod matching, but more the biological sort of algorithm
01:44 seano right.  so maybe "if" is creating its own $_...
01:44 * seano goes source-diving for how the heck "if" is implemented...
01:45 TimToady the type mismatch can be overcome by driving up the numbers of receptors as well as the number of things to be recepted.
01:45 TimToady my guess is it's spillover from the for modifier semantics
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01:47 TimToady in fact, the way biological systems deal with ambiguous mmd dispatch is to simply pick one at random.
01:48 TimToady and if it fails--well, you should have taken a higher dosage;
01:48 TimToady and if the higher dosage kills you, well, you should have had a better set of mmd methods.
01:51 TimToady darwinism: better chemistry through living...
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02:08 twobitsprite TimToady: that's deep
02:08 twobitsprite I'll remember that
02:09 TimToady problem with biological mmd is that you don't always get the answer you expect when you dispatch to the IRC multimethod.  :)
02:10 TimToady you send the "blowup" instruction to the rocket and it says "I'm of two minds about that..."
02:12 TimToady so maybe we should give mmd free will, but make it trainable...
02:13 TimToady If you pick that option, it hurts.  Try something else next time.
02:14 TimToady maybe extensible mmd policy is the path to AI...
02:18 TimToady "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't allow you to dispatch to that MMD routine..."
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03:26 spx2 bleah
03:32 twobitsprite mmd on such a scale seems to me that you would spend more time searching for a dispatch candidate than you would actually running code... in which case the algorithm used to dispatch becomes the focus, and now your stuck with traditional search mechanisms to find the right dispatch
03:33 twobitsprite by "search" I mean problem/solution space search, a la AI
03:38 spx2 genetic algorithms ?
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09:04 spx2 hello all
09:04 spx2 i have a problem
09:05 spx2 i'm trying to make a script in perl using sockets
09:05 spx2 but it works only for 4 seconds
09:05 spx2 and then
09:05 spx2 BOOOM!
09:05 spx2 it stops :(
09:05 spx2 http://justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?p=862332#post862332
09:05 spx2 please help me
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10:25 fglock I've got algorithms for executing the begin-block in the right env, and for replaying the side effects in the run-time env
10:26 fglock now I need some way to 'collect' the compile-time side-effects, in order to have something to replay...
10:27 fglock possible side-effects are: imported subs, things that were modified in other packages
10:27 spx2 i need some help on this http://justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?p=862332#post862332
10:29 fglock spx2: the best place to ask is perlmonks.org - please create an account so that you can have a proper dialog there
10:29 fglock spx2: it's a nice place to learn perl
10:30 spx2 already did that
10:30 fglock ah, I found it :)
10:32 spx2 what ?
10:33 fglock I foud your question there - would you remove the <br/> in the code? it's difficult to download
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10:39 fglock spx2: I guess that at some point, you have both sides waiting for input at the same time
10:40 spx2 that would mean the socket would be empty on that time,but it is not possible because one of the sides fills the sockets,so at the next moment one of them should have what to read from the sockets
10:41 spx2 i mean
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10:41 spx2 you are probably right,but from how it was built it shouldn't come to an issue as you're poiniting out
10:42 fglock spx2: try 'timeout' at the perlmonks search - it has some nice tips
10:58 svnbot6 r15030 | fglock++ | kp6 - added example of pure-perl compile-time env implementation
11:00 pasteling "evalbot_r15029" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (375 lines, 20.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/22282
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11:37 spx2 why does perl 6 even exist ?
11:37 spx2 is it because there is a 6 after 5 ?
11:38 spx2 i mean....really why does it exist ?
11:38 spx2 does it bring anything new ?
11:38 spx2 or better ?
11:46 avar spx2: read the synosis
11:48 spx2 whats your oppinion avar ?
11:48 luqui it does not exist...
11:50 spx2 lol @ luqui
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12:34 svnbot6 r15031 | kudra++ | Placeholders
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12:57 masak spx2: perl6 can be considered a way to put the learnings from perl5 into perl
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13:10 svnbot6 r15032 | luqui++ | Solved 99 problems problem 27.
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13:16 svnbot6 r15033 | luqui++ | Changed problem 27 to "require" problem 26, the same way 33 does for 32.
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13:22 fglock kp6 would need a definition of which begin-block side-effects should be recorded
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13:23 fglock I'm still looking up for older discussions
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13:26 spx2 how long has perl been around ?
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13:30 luqui 1989 or something like that?
13:30 svnbot6 r15034 | luqui++ | Wrote many more tests for problem 34.  The solution was wrong, and just happened to work correctly for the test
13:30 svnbot6 r15034 | luqui++ | (turns out that totient(10) = pi(10)  where  pi(n) is the number of primes less than n).
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13:32 svnbot6 r15035 | luqui++ | And... fixed problem 34.
13:35 fglock does running 'use' at BEGIN means that the precompiled code must have already included all modules - and there is no linking work left for the runtime?
13:35 svnbot6 r15036 | luqui++ | Forgot the special case phi(1) = 1.
13:37 fglock that is, use'd modules are statically linked
13:40 luqui not necessarily...
13:40 svnbot6 r15037 | luqui++ | Solved 99 problems problem 35.
13:40 fglock maybe 'use', 'export' are special in some way
13:41 luqui though I suppose so, since you do need to have compiled the used module at the using module's compile time
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13:44 Limbic_Region eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push ($bit ? @foo : @bar), (7, 8, 9); @foo;
13:44 buubot Limbic_Region: Error: Type of arg 1 to push must be array (not null operation) at eval line 1, near "@bar)"  
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13:45 luqui eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push +($bit ? @foo : @bar), (7, 8, 9); @foo;
13:45 buubot luqui: Error: Type of arg 1 to push must be array (not null operation) at eval line 1, at EOF  
13:45 Limbic_Region luqui - you might not want to trust buubot and try it yourself from command line
13:45 * Limbic_Region doesn't have that ability ATM
13:46 luqui buubot is correct
13:46 luqui eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push @{$bit ? \@foo : \@bar), (7, 8, 9); @foo;
13:46 buubot luqui: Error: syntax error at eval line 1, near "@bar)" Missing right curly or square bracket at eval line 1, at end of line syntax error at eval line 1, at EOF  
13:46 Limbic_Region eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push (($bit ? @foo : @bar)), (7, 8, 9); @foo;
13:46 buubot Limbic_Region: Error: Type of arg 1 to push must be array (not null operation) at eval line 1, near "))"  
13:46 luqui eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push @{$bit ? \@foo : \@bar)} (7, 8, 9); @foo;
13:46 buubot luqui: Error: syntax error at eval line 1, near "@bar)"  
13:47 luqui eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push @{$bit ? \@foo : \@bar} (7, 8, 9); @foo;
13:47 buubot luqui: Error: syntax error at eval line 1, near "} ("  
13:47 luqui ugh
13:47 luqui eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push @{$bit ? \@foo : \@bar}, (7, 8, 9); @foo;
13:47 buubot luqui:  6
13:47 luqui eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push @{$bit ? \@foo : \@bar}, (7, 8, 9); "@foo";
13:47 buubot luqui:  1 2 3 7 8 9
13:47 luqui hahahaha! finally!
13:47 Limbic_Region luqui - did you see the perlmonks node that is making me test this?
13:47 b_jonas heh, the http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=594109 thing
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13:48 * luqui doesn't read perlmonks
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13:49 Limbic_Region well, the thing is, the reference to the array isn't needed
13:49 luqui wow... very strange
13:49 luqui eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push @{$bit ? @foo : @bar}, (7, 8, 9); "@foo";
13:49 buubot luqui:  1 2 3 7 8 9
13:49 luqui it's as if @{} imposes referential context or something
13:50 Limbic_Region so I was wondering if the deref was needed at all
13:50 luqui much like \($bit ? @foo : @bar)
13:50 Limbic_Region eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push $bit ? @foo : @bar, (7, 8, 9); @foo;
13:50 buubot Limbic_Region: Error: Type of arg 1 to push must be array (not null operation) at eval line 1, at EOF  
13:50 luqui I don't know what this null operation it's talking about is
13:51 fglock I wonder if building the target program in the env and then serializing to .perl would make sense
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13:52 fglock smalltalk does something like this, right?
13:52 Limbic_Region eval: my @foo = (1,2,3); my @bar = (4, 5, 6); my $bit = 1; push {$bit ? @foo : @bar}, (7, 8, 9); @foo;
13:52 buubot Limbic_Region: Error: Type of arg 1 to push must be array (not single ref constructor) at eval line 1, at EOF  
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13:53 Limbic_Region whatever, I have abused the channel enough
13:54 fglock and then, compile-time to run-time transition is just 'suspended execution'
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13:55 fglock lunch &
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14:12 svnbot6 r15038 | luqui++ | Solved 99 problems problem 49.
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14:54 svnbot6 r15039 | kudra++ | Posted version
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15:32 fglock re env dump - Data::Dump::Streamer can't work out nested closures
15:39 luqui fglock, really? :-(
15:40 svnbot6 r15040 | luqui++ | w00t, solved 99 problems problem # 98.
15:41 luqui perl 6 is a pretty nice language to program in
15:42 luqui it would be nicer if pugs didn't have those little idiosyncracies...
15:42 luqui (but there are way fewer of them than a year ago or so)
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15:52 Limbic_Region fglock - do you have a test case, I will be sure demerphq and diotalevi have it fixed if possible soonish
15:53 Limbic_Region @tell fglock if you have a test case for Data::Dump::Streamer failing on nested closures let demerphq or diotalevi know and I am sure they will fix it soonish if possible
15:55 luqui it'd be nice if lambdabot would just say "ok, I'll tell him"
15:55 luqui as an error check to catch yourself if lambdabot is not in the room
15:55 luqui like now
15:56 Limbic_Region luqui - it does say "consider it noted"
15:56 luqui ahh, good
15:56 Limbic_Region that's how I knew there was a problem
15:57 luqui gut
15:58 * Limbic_Region wanders off to a $meeting
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16:00 pasteling "fglock" at 201.35.169.13 pasted "problem with dumping nested closures" (22 lines, 759B) at http://sial.org/pbot/22293
16:00 fglock the problem is, all variables are created in the same pad
16:01 fglock and it uses variable renaming, instead of shadowing
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16:04 fglock anyway, I'm not convinced that a disassembler is the best solution for passing env
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16:10 * agentzh is writing a Parse::RecDescent that emits C# code.
16:11 luqui doesn't C# already have several parser generators?
16:11 agentzh i'm wondering how difficult it would be for miniperl6 to emit C#
16:11 agentzh luqui: just for fun ;)
16:12 luqui fair enough :-)
16:12 agentzh C# 2.0's closure support helps a lot.
16:13 luqui oh, with that it might be pretty easy to get mp6 to emit C#
16:13 agentzh yes! i'm thinking about that too!
16:14 agentzh so i take the P::RD on C# as an excercise.
16:14 agentzh *exercise
16:14 luqui agentzh, you could try L::AG
16:14 luqui that needs closures up the wazoo
16:14 agentzh luqui: i'm already a L::AG user. :)
16:15 fglock agentzh: I can help you
16:15 agentzh fglock: oh!
16:15 fglock agentzh: it would need some native libs
16:15 agentzh that will be great!
16:15 * agentzh is listening
16:16 fglock take a look at the existing lib/MiniPerl6/*/Emitter.pm modules
16:16 agentzh aye
16:16 luqui agentzh, I was talking about porting L::AG to C# :-)
16:16 agentzh i see the perl 5 emitter emits code that depends on the perl 5 runtime.
16:16 fglock this is where the AST is translated into target source code
16:16 agentzh fglock: i know this part.
16:17 agentzh luqui: i knew. :)
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16:17 agentzh but i don't quite understand the algorithms used by miniperl6.
16:17 agentzh so i should read the source first.
16:17 fglock agentzh: it depends on what C# runtime already has - you can emit everything into subroutine calls, or you can inline code
16:18 fglock you can dump the ast tree - see one of the controller scripts
16:18 agentzh fglock: thanks. i will. :)
16:18 agentzh fglock: the performance of the miniperl6 compiler looks quite good.
16:19 agentzh it didn't take very long to bootstrap it using perl 5
16:19 agentzh fglock: if i have problems in understanding the miniperl6 source, i'll let you know. :)
16:20 fglock ok!
16:20 agentzh :)
16:20 agentzh luqui: re L::AG
16:20 agentzh i used that to implement a program prover in the last year.
16:21 luqui cool!
16:21 agentzh it's great for transforming ASTs.
16:21 agentzh and my prover has proved all the examples in our textbook.
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16:21 luqui well, that is the idea.  I think we can do way better than AGs for transforming ASTs, I'm just not how
16:21 luqui by prove, do you mean...
16:22 agentzh prove the programs' correctness.
16:22 luqui as in prove that they terminate?
16:22 agentzh given a program source and a spec. compare these two automatically.
16:22 luqui oh wow
16:22 luqui very nice
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16:22 luqui what did you use to write the spec?
16:22 agentzh a math-like language.
16:23 agentzh i was using the Maple software to do the maths.
16:23 spx2 i need help with regex
16:23 luqui oh, interesting
16:23 spx2 perl doesnt want to do but the first line !
16:23 spx2 what do i do ?
16:23 luqui spx2, example?
16:24 fglock agentzh: humm - would you like to work on kp6 devel? it's the next step towards 6-on-6
16:24 agentzh luqui: my #1 complaint about L::AG is its performance
16:24 agentzh fglock: verily.
16:24 luqui agentzh, yeah, the lazy approach does have a few drawbacks
16:24 agentzh fglock: but i'm still getting my head around your cool stuff. :)
16:24 luqui when comparing to the "compiled" approach in the literature
16:25 fglock I'm writing the specifications
16:25 luqui :-)
16:25 spx2 $ipadress = `ipconfig`;$ipadress =~ /IP(.*)/s;print $1. "\n" ;
16:25 agentzh fglock: cool
16:25 spx2 im expecting this to get the line "IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : xx.xx.xx.xx"
16:25 agentzh fglock: kp6 compilers generate mp6 code, no?
16:26 spx2 why is it not getting it ?
16:26 spx2 i mean i think i wrote it all correct...
16:26 spx2 $ipadress has at first multiple lines
16:26 spx2 can the regex parse all of it ? it seems to stump on the first line
16:26 luqui spx2, well.. you will get IP........ to the end of the string
16:26 spx2 luqui: i dont
16:27 luqui that's a little strange
16:27 luqui do you check that it matches?
16:27 agentzh luqui: is it possible to pre-compile the L::AG grammar?
16:27 clkao
16:27 fglock agentzh: mp6 is just one of the backends - it's being called "desugared p6"; other backends may need different desugarings
16:27 agentzh fglock: gotcha.
16:28 luqui agentzh, not with this algorithm.  the time consuming part is annotating the tree with the computation closures
16:28 luqui (that's my guess at least)
16:28 spx2 luqui: i get a pattern from the text,to extract
16:28 agentzh luqui: oh!
16:29 luqui and after that is done, it should be just as fast as the compiled approach (modulo sub call overhead)
16:29 agentzh luqui: i'm looking forward to that. :)
16:30 luqui er, no...
16:30 luqui after L::AG annotates the tree, then its algorithm is just as fast as the compiled approach
16:30 luqui so if it's running slow, I guess that it's taking too much time annotating..
16:30 agentzh hmm
16:31 agentzh i've profiled L::AG, but forgot its bottle-neck...
16:31 agentzh luqui: and there's a bug i've encountered.
16:32 luqui agentzh, I would like to see your data.  I haven't run it on any big data structures
16:32 agentzh i found myself cloning the trees over and over again.
16:32 agentzh two grammars can be applied to the same data structrues?
16:32 agentzh *can't
16:32 luqui that is true
16:32 luqui wait...
16:33 luqui no, that shouldn't be true
16:33 agentzh luqui: i'll send some data to you when i have some time.
16:33 luqui okay, thanks
16:33 luqui I'll look at that bug
16:33 agentzh excellent!
16:33 agentzh 0:35 AM here. G'night &
16:34 luqui night
16:34 agentzh :)
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16:40 fglock I guess I can build a 'closure' object that knows how to dump itself
16:41 fglock but there is still the problem of dumping use'd CPAN modules
16:41 fglock I don't think that's possible without 5-on-6
16:43 fglock one possible solution is, perl5 modules are loaded twice - at compile and runtime
16:46 TimToady assuming you can be sure of getting the same one...
16:46 TimToady or at least one that has the same interface
16:47 TimToady Ada was always big on separating the interface from the implementation so you could swap out the implementation without changing the interface
16:48 fglock TimToady: I'm a bit lost regarding the begin block implementation - specifically, how to separate compile/run time
16:50 fglock I figured out several bits already - but saving BEGIN side-effects still looks difficult
16:50 TimToady the reload trick should work find for Perl 6, because we guarantee that the user can't modify the used.
16:51 TimToady and we also guarantee that modules installed in the library have version numbers
16:52 TimToady so in an a.b.c the b theoretically guarantees a unique interface.
16:54 TimToady and you already presumably know how to save your own closures, or you wouldn't a compiler...
16:54 luqui TimToady, I've been programming in perl 6 recently...
16:54 TimToady yes, I backlogged. :)
16:54 luqui there were a few odd-feeling points
16:54 TimToady all ears
16:54 luqui but by far the largest one was that I couldn't tell when ((1,2),(3,4) had two elements and when it had four
16:55 luqui s/)/))
16:55 TimToady exactly the same as when (@foo,@bar) has 2 vs N
16:55 TimToady a Capture won't decide that till it's bound
16:56 luqui what about:  (1,(2,(3,4)))
16:56 luqui is it possible for that to have three elements?
16:56 luqui er..
16:56 TimToady probably not
16:56 TimToady forgot your outer parens there
16:57 TimToady so ((1,2),(3,4)) is always going to be (1,2,3,4)
16:57 TimToady because the , is list context maker
16:57 luqui okay, good!
16:57 luqui pugs is wrong then
16:57 luqui (well, I'm not sure how much I like that from the language perspective, but at least it's consistent)
16:58 luqui how does one make List objects?
16:58 TimToady well, that's how I read it.  Audreyt may think of it differently.
16:58 TimToady in which case we'll need to negotiate.
16:59 TimToady Seq(1,2) I suppose
16:59 TimToady but maybe that's different
16:59 luqui hmm
16:59 TimToady \(1,2) can function as a list
17:00 TimToady 1 => 2 => 3 => 4 is a list in the Lisp sense...
17:00 luqui but not in the (1 => 2 => 3 => 4) == 4 sense...
17:00 TimToady right
17:01 dmq joined perl6
17:01 luqui which one of the following takes the second column of a matrix:
17:01 luqui @a[*][1] or @a[][1]
17:01 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
17:02 luqui shutup lambdabot  :-)
17:03 luqui (neither works in pugs, of course :-)
17:04 dmq fglock?
17:04 TimToady @a[*;1] would eventually be it, I think
17:04 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
17:04 TimToady @tell yourself to shutup
17:04 lambdabot Consider it noted.
17:04 luqui TimToady, even if @a is just an AoA, not a shaped matrix?
17:04 TimToady but S09 is not notably implemented yet
17:05 TimToady I would think an array that discovered itself to have compound leaves would try to emulate shape
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17:06 luqui oh... kay
17:07 TimToady [][] notation is hard to interpolate multidimensional slices into...
17:07 luqui fair enough
17:07 luqui (because the first [] has to return something...)
17:08 TimToady and what does [*] return that would make [1] work right?
17:08 TimToady without saying >>.[1]
17:08 luqui a list potential (like a junction) :-)
17:09 luqui I'd rather not go there ;-)
17:09 TimToady well, that's essentially what the "for list(@x) < 2" was trying to do...
17:10 TimToady but I don't see a real list comprehension syntax helping with [*][1] offhand
17:10 TimToady the . boundary is pretty much limited to scalars in P6
17:10 luqui uh huh...
17:11 TimToady well, not scalars, items
17:11 TimToady anyway, [*;1] syntax is supposed to be the way around that.
17:11 svnbot6 r15041 | fglock++ | kp6 - added proof-of-concept recursive closure dumper
17:12 fglock dmq: pong
17:12 TimToady a way, rather
17:12 dmq hi.
17:12 dmq l~r said you disagreed with the output of http://sial.org/pbot/22293
17:12 lambdabot Title: Paste #22293 from "fglock" at 201.35.169.13
17:12 dmq I was wondering why?
17:12 dmq or point me at how i can read the log if you already said.
17:13 fglock dmq: there are 3 pad levels, but the dump only shows one
17:13 dmq yes, thats correct.
17:14 dmq there is no guarantee that you get back the exact same internal representation, just that it will function the same.
17:14 dmq any other approach very quickly leads to madness.
17:14 TimToady pun intended, I presume
17:14 fglock dmq: I'm working around it
17:15 fglock with madness and all :)
17:15 TimToady if you need an exact representation of the original back out, only madprops will give it to you.
17:16 dmq ah, i think its an NP-complete problem.
17:17 maquis left perl6
17:17 dmq oh right, with MAD or in perl6 not, in Perl5 its er /hard/.
17:17 spx2 joined perl6
17:19 dmq consider weird shit like my @subs; my ($x,$y,$z)=qw(x y z); for my $x ($x,$y,$z) { push @subs,sub { $x; eval $_[0] } } for my $y ($x,$y,$z) { push @subs,sub { $y; eval $_[0] } } for my $z ($x,$y,$z) { push @subs,sub { $z; eval $_[0] } } Dump(\@subs);
17:19 spx2 how do i get my own ip adress ? i've used with success `ipconfig` and then applied some regular expressions and got what i need(on Windows) ,but on Linux,i have a shell where im running the script and i am not allowed to do ifconfig,so what do i do ??????
17:19 fglock dmq: this is my workaround so far: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/begin-block.pl
17:20 fglock it allows you to build closures, execute code inside them, and then inspect the environment
17:20 dmq and that code doesnt even cover all the cases :-)
17:20 fglock dmq: not sure yet
17:21 TimToady spx2: use the Socket module
17:21 fglock it only needs to work for BEGIN blocks
17:21 spx2 TimToady: what exactly in the socket module,thats what im trying to figgure out for the last 1 hour and 30m
17:22 dmq The point is that with aliasing in the mix you can end up with some really bizarre cases.
17:22 spx2 TimToady: i found IO::Socket,Socket,Win32::Internet
17:22 spx2 TimToady: of wich win32 is not good
17:22 dmq for instance, names that are the same that refer to different vars, names that are different that refer to the same vars, etc.
17:22 fglock dmq: this is not supposed to happen at this level (desugared p6)
17:23 dmq so in some situations is not clear to me that any given representation is necessarily correct, unless you have more info that name/sv_location
17:23 spx2 TimToady: ?
17:23 dmq er, fglock, i didnt grok that comment.
17:24 fglock dmq: this is generated code, so I can control what it gets
17:26 dmq im speaking to the arbitrary issue of taking a set of code and closures and restoring it correctly.
17:26 TimToady spx2: if you know your local machine's name, you can use gethostbyname
17:27 TimToady but generally one just lets the machine assign your address for you when you're connecting, because you don't generally know which interface you're going to go out of, and the address depends on the interface.
17:27 dmq i believe my code does restore it correctly, so long as "correctly" doesnt mean "topologicially identical".
17:27 TimToady once you're connected you can look up your own binding with getsockname
17:28 TimToady shower &
17:29 fglock dmq: I wonder what happens if the code is recursive (needs closure cloning)
17:29 luqui ?whois spx2
17:29 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
17:29 luqui sigh
17:29 spx2 luqui: in perl...
17:30 dmq it should DTRT.
17:30 dmq :-)
17:32 luqui hmm.. it is possible (even likely) for a machine to have multiple IP addresses
17:32 luqui so it is an ill-defined thing to do in general
17:32 luqui you need to talk to your network card interface somehow...
17:36 spx2 luqui:..are you a noob ?
17:37 spx2 i just did this
17:37 spx2 $ipadress=`curl http://www.whatismyip.com/`;
17:37 spx2 $ipadress=~/Your IP Is (.*)<\/h1>/m;
17:37 spx2 print $1;
17:37 spx2 and i got what i needed
17:37 fglock dmq: I'll make some experiments
17:37 luqui spx2, most certainly, because the IP address that made a request comes with the packet that made it
17:37 fglock but I think there may be problems with recursive subs
17:38 luqui if a computer has two network cards, one of them will make the request
17:38 dmq in code as hairy as DDS i wouldnt say that there isnt :-)
17:38 dmq and i could imagine recursive subs being one place where it might be so
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17:39 luqui spx2, but right now, my IP is 67.174.183.183, 192.168.0.100, and 127.0.0.1... which one do you want?
17:40 luqui (I'm not saying you can't do what you're trying to do, I'm just trying to establish that the problem is tricker than a simple OS call or something)
17:40 luqui *trickier
17:41 spx2 luqui: dude,im very practical , i dont have time for jokes,i meant the external one
17:41 luqui spx2, which external one?  67.174.183.183 or 192.168.0.100
17:41 luqui if I make a request to somebody on my LAN, the latter is probably what they're looking for
17:42 luqui so you want the IP of my router?
17:42 luqui that's even harder :-)
17:42 luqui you might even have to parse whatismyip.com to get that...
17:42 spx2 luqui: DUDE, ALMOST ALL OF THE WORLD IS OUTSIDE YOUR LAN !
17:42 luqui spx2, because ifconfig says my IP is 192.168.0.100
17:42 luqui calm down.
17:43 spx2 luqui: i am calm
17:43 spx2 luqui: listen
17:43 spx2 luqui: say that i'm like some thousands of miles away
17:43 spx2 luqui: there is only *ONE* ip i'm intrested in from you !
17:43 luqui okay
17:43 spx2 luqui: and that is most certainly the one on whatismyip.com
17:44 luqui well, I think that's basically the only way you're going to get it
17:44 luqui because my computer doesn't know that information without at least sending one packet
17:46 luqui (as an example of why that is true, my router could get a new address from DHCP without telling me)
17:46 luqui (unless telling me is part of the dhcp protocol, I'm not really sure actually)
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18:42 svnbot6 r15042 | fglock++ | kp6 - added a closure 'emitter' to the begin-block prototype
18:43 fglock requiring a disassembler is not a reasonable requirement for 6-on-6
18:43 fglock I'll try to find other solutions
18:43 TimToady for your own closures, surely you have the original AST
18:44 TimToady or at least "had" at some time in the past...
18:44 fglock yes - I'm working on that direction...
18:45 TimToady and anything imported just has to have a "true name" that you can relink to at run time.
18:47 fglock I wonder if it would be useful to have the program dump'able at any time - as a side effect of having enough info available
18:47 TimToady in fact, "is export" basically just makes a link to a name in a subpackage...
18:48 TimToady the Smalltalkers would like that...
18:48 TimToady but I'm not sure it's practical on every VM
18:49 fglock basically, you have the source file, global variables, and the pads - only the stack is missing
18:49 fglock but cps can take care of that
18:49 fglock could
18:50 TimToady you can't remember foreign stacks in any case, if you've called out to some other runtime that doesn't integrate with your cps
18:51 TimToady which is why cps systems tend to shun outside "help", I suspect.
18:52 fglock ah
18:53 TimToady we could start a marketing campaign for "100% Pure Perl" I suppose, but it seems a bit unperlish...
18:54 TimToady I suppose if you can replay all the API events to a non-cps system you can fake a continuation.
18:54 TimToady ignoring side effects.
18:55 TimToady and assuming you could restart the API in a consistent state.
18:55 TimToady well, not today's problem.
18:56 fglock sure :)
18:58 TimToady anyway, assuming all imports are done with true names, a re-use at runtime only has to do a require, not an import.
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18:59 TimToady course, the whole point of pragmas is to cheat...
19:01 TimToady but maybe we can help them "cheat fair"
19:05 fglock the 'use' implementation probably needs to install hooks to do the right thing at INIT
19:06 TimToady and I'm saying that hopefully the right thing is just a require
19:07 TimToady require just says "make sure the package aka (true names) are populated"
19:08 TimToady normal importation should have mapped all aliases to package symbols that require will bring in
19:08 TimToady so nothing needs to be realiased at run time.
19:09 fglock you mean, the generated code is something like this?  require X; *s = \&X::s;
19:09 TimToady that implies to me that "use Foo" resolves to "use Foo-1.2.3-JRANDOM" at compile time
19:10 TimToady well, P6 does lexical imports by default, not typeglobs
19:11 fglock what does it desugars to? require Foo-1.2.3-JRANDOM; s := X::s
19:11 fglock how do you import a sub?
19:12 TimToady I'm saying that if you have something aliased to X::s at compile time, the dump of that structure should preserve the alias without having to regenerate it a run time.
19:12 fglock I mean, what does the dump would look like?
19:14 TimToady how do you dump lexicals currently with their latest compile-time value?
19:14 fglock I call a subroutine that is defined inside the lexical scope
19:15 fglock an 'inspector' sub
19:15 TimToady so if you've got "my $importsub = \&X::s" there...
19:16 TimToady it just needs to find a way at run time to remap $importsub back to the "X::s" true name
19:16 TimToady aka symbolic reference
19:17 TimToady so basically linking is turning symbolic refs back into hard ones, I guess.
19:17 fglock what is the p6 syntax for this? "my $importsub = \&X::s"
19:17 TimToady phone &
19:18 kolibrie pesky phones
19:19 TimToady my &importsub := &X::s;
19:20 fglock hmm - when to use ::= ?
19:20 TimToady we might have to limit the exportation of anonymous subs though, I suppose.
19:20 TimToady or assign them an obfuscated true name for linking purposes.
19:21 TimToady for now we can just make "sub is export {...}" illegal
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19:22 TimToady and if there's a custom import sub, it can handle its own semantics presumably...
19:23 fglock I guess I need to start implementation - I'd like to have something runnable to experiment with
19:23 TimToady including, presumably handing the user a thunk to poke into the INIT queue.
19:24 TimToady for now assume you don't have to save anything anonymous across a use boundary.
19:25 TimToady that's the main point of package namespaces, after all--to hold the public interface
19:25 luqui why can't you use Data::Dump::Streamer as a catch-most method?
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19:26 fglock luqui: one reason is that it renames variables
19:27 luqui hmp
19:27 fglock another reason is to avoid cheating - this is 6-on-6, and it doesn't have a disassembler
19:28 luqui ahh
19:28 luqui okay, that makes sense
19:29 fglock v6.pm does use DDS
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19:34 fglock I guess I can close the kp6 spec now, with: lexical subs and classes; metamodel interface; begin blocks
19:35 TimToady if you want to tweak it later, we might just let you.  :)
19:35 fglock oh, and containers
19:38 dmq it does?
19:38 dmq patches welcome :-)
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19:38 dmq if you can hold your nose long enough to patch it.
19:39 dmq ah if only i knew then what i know now....
19:39 TimToady I would think the regex engine would have burned out your nose completely.  :)
19:39 dmq heh
19:39 fglock dmq: you are talking about DDS?
19:40 dmq yes
19:40 dmq you could have pushed me over with a feather when i read you were using it for v6.pm
19:40 fglock it's quite a nice module
19:40 fglock the problem is me - I want it to do too much :)
19:41 dmq the problem is the code is heaping pile of steaming dung so making it do what you want is infinitely harder than it should be.
19:42 dmq i mean, its dung that i know and love, and raised from a little mostly not smelly cow-patty, but its still dung.
19:43 fglock heh - I wonder how v6.pm even works, with it's half-hundred dependencies
19:43 dmq anyway, im very glad that you like it, and that its being used for the v6 stuff.
19:43 fglock DDS handles the .perl method
19:45 dmq i keep thinking i aught to rewrite it in C/XS
19:46 fglock dmq: I wonder if you'd write a Dumper for mp6...
19:47 fglock this would force the compiler to expose enough info
19:48 TimToady *cough* madprops *cough*
19:48 fglock and it's needed for serializing begin->init blocks in kp6
19:48 lisppaste3 joined perl6
19:48 TimToady I presume you mean a Dumper written in mp6
19:49 fglock TimToady: is there some text about madprops? I'd like to know what kind of annotations are needed
19:49 fglock TimToady: yes - written in mp6
19:50 fglock mp6 is "clean-room"-ish
19:50 TimToady madprops are strictly a p5 thing to work around the fact that the compiler throws away far too much info
19:51 TimToady and the fact that if you simply tell p5 not to throw away the info, it either breaks the compiler completely or changes the semantics
19:52 dmq sorry was on the phone.
19:53 TimToady the madprops approach is to simply attach the information anywhere close by that will be preserved, and then run a postprocessor to move the info back to the right spot in the tree.
19:53 hexmode left perl6
19:53 TimToady it's not an approach you want to design into anything on purpose...
19:54 dmq fglock: id be glad to consider it once im wrapped up with the "get stuff done before perl 5.10 is out" mode.
19:55 fglock dmq: that would be nice
19:55 dmq and timtoady: regarding our last brief conversation, im sorry i wasnt trying to drag out an analysis of the design of p5's regex engine. i was just trying to get insight into what you had in mind as the work around.
19:56 dmq anyway, i really dont mean to annoy you with my interest/questions/schemes for the perl5 re. sorry if i have.
19:56 TimToady np, just wish I was several more people...
19:57 dmq heh. dont we all (on multiple levels)
19:57 dmq :-)
19:57 TimToady occasionally I also wish I was smarter.
19:57 fglock home &
19:58 TimToady I'm either the smartest stupid person or the stupidest smart person you'll ever meet.  :)
19:58 fglock TimToady: thanks
19:58 TimToady welcome
19:58 dmq anyway, ive done some analysis on how to do the perl6 style var bindings. im not there yet but you never know.
19:58 fglock oh, and I'd like to meet you sometime :)
19:59 dmq fglock: have a good one.
19:59 * Limbic_Region refrains from mentioning "idiot savant"
20:01 TimToady well, my brain is definitely in sideways from everyone else's, in any case.
20:01 Limbic_Region dmq - out of curiosity, has there been talk on p5p or elsewhere about 5.12 once 5.10 is released?
20:02 dmq beyond that Dave Mitchel will be the pumpking not that ive heard.
20:02 dmq timtoady: i'm happy to follow in your brains footsteps. sidewise or not, it goes interesting places.
20:03 dmq l~r: i think the general thing is we just want to get perl 5.10 out now.
20:03 Limbic_Region I agree
20:03 dmq freaping creaturities
20:03 TimToady except my brain usually refused to cooperate in telling me where *it's* been...
20:03 Limbic_Region but I would hate to see 5.12 take as long to release as 5.10 was from 5.8
20:03 dmq timtoady: do like the rest of us and follow the breadcrumbs. ;-)
20:04 TimToady things just bubble up, and I say them, and they're usually true enough to pass for truth.
20:04 Limbic_Region dmq - you didn't know TimToady's brain is a multi-headed hydra - one of the heads is constantly eating the bread crumbs
20:05 dmq hrm, i guess i dont really know how much of what im doing is TimToadys, Henry Spencers or Ilya's footsteps. probably all of them. :-)
20:07 TimToady having known both of the others individually, I can't imagine how they could interact in person...
20:07 dmq heh
20:08 TimToady I suppose if they stuck to math they'd be fine.
20:10 Limbic_Region TimToady - have you considered what you want to do after Perl 6?
20:10 TimToady I want to see if Perl 6 stops first.  :)
20:11 TimToady but the world is full of many interesting things
20:11 TimToady I'm doing Perl 6 by choice, not by necessity.
20:12 Limbic_Region TimToady - ok, assuming Perl 6 is released to the world and it doesn't stagnate in say 3-5 years, have you considered what of those interesting things you might like to pursue?
20:12 TimToady my brain doesn't work that way.  I'm sure I'll be happy with whatever bubbles up at the time.
20:13 TimToady and I will probably find that it was both surprising and completely expected
20:14 Limbic_Region I never really thought about it but my life so far has been pretty much that way
20:14 Limbic_Region though I often think about what I would do when I win the lottery
20:15 TimToady for my wife it's the Reader's Digest Sweepstakes...
20:15 TimToady are you planning to win the lottery?
20:15 Limbic_Region where often = once or twice a year
20:15 Limbic_Region TimToady - yes, though I haven't quite figured out when yet
20:17 Limbic_Region it isn't responsible to go and do something as life altering as winning the lottery if you haven't bothered to think through how you are going to let it benefit your friends, family, and mankind in general
20:18 GabrielVieira2 is now known as GabrielVieira
20:18 TimToady with me I occasionally hope for a MacArthur grant, but I know I'm probably perceived as far to conservative (not to mention old) to get one from them.  Now I wouldn't be surprised if a certain other lady who hangs around here managed to pull one down.
20:18 Limbic_Region as soon as I have it all figured out though, funding a handful of hackers working on perl full time is on the list so I will be sure to let you know
20:19 luqui that'd be nice
20:19 * luqui is off to an informal interview at the moment :-)
20:19 Limbic_Region actually, with you I had considered buying your family exceptional health insurance
20:20 TimToady my other option is for a billionaire to leave me some of the estate.
20:20 TimToady but my estate-planning department is not well staffed.
20:22 * Limbic_Region realized that lag of his client may have implied that his consideration of health coverage was intended for luqui not TimToady
20:22 buetow joined perl6
20:22 * luqui figured otherwise...
20:22 luqui :-)
20:23 Limbic_Region in any case, I pretty much let things happen as they happen and am pretty happy with the results but also occassionally consider what would happen if his life were suddenly altered in such a way as winning the lottery
20:24 TimToady well, I agree with Miles Vorkosigan.  It's important to me to win with the hand I was dealt.
20:49 Khisanth joined perl6
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21:24 christopher joined perl6
21:29 christopher How is typeglob assignment written now? (for redefining subroutines)
21:32 gaal there are no typeglobs. you can access the symbol table with ThisPackage::<&foo> = sub ($moose) { ... }
21:33 gaal see L<S02/Names>
21:33 gaal := is probably better there.
21:33 christopher is it just ::<&foo> for the current package?
21:34 gaal no, OUR::<&foo> should work though.
21:34 gaal (not in pugs yet though, probably!)
21:35 christopher indeed
21:35 christopher yay, simply &foo := &bar seems to work
21:35 christopher (but not non-binding =)
21:36 christopher thanks.  I wonder if it will work with regexes, rules, etc. too.
21:36 gaal rules are methods.
21:36 gaal grammars are classes.
21:37 christopher but are they implemented that way yet? ::)  (I'm using PGE)
21:37 jferrero joined perl6
21:37 gaal you'll have to try and see :) I don't know
21:37 weinig is now known as weinig_
21:38 gaal also, I'd better be getting to bed...
21:38 christopher ok.  know where a test might belong?;
21:38 weinig_ is now known as weinig
21:38 gaal I think there's a sytable.t somewhere
21:38 gaal *symtable
21:38 gaal t/syntax/symbol_table.t
21:39 christopher doesn't seem to test binding, but that's probably a fine place
21:39 gaal cool
21:39 gaal good night :)
21:39 christopher good night
21:39 larsen_ joined perl6
21:49 buetow joined perl6
21:51 dmq see TimToady, why couldnt you have invented make (as well)? the world would have been a much better place
22:00 renormalist left perl6
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23:07 svnbot6 r15043 | malon++ | t/operators/binding/subs.t - tests for subroutine and token rebinding
23:10 mbradley joined perl6
23:23 Arathorn joined perl6
23:23 * Arathorn surfaces for old time's sake
23:23 Arathorn don't suppose anyone's a) awake, b) still familiar with Judy?
23:27 dduncan joined perl6
23:27 dmq im awake, but know only a very little about judy. sorry
23:28 mako132_ joined perl6
23:29 Arathorn dmq: fair enough - thanks for acking, eitherway :)
23:29 * Arathorn is trying to work out why Judy doesn't compile under c++, and #perl6 is the only place I know of who are savvy with it
23:29 mbradley is now known as mbradley|bbl
23:37 bucky joined perl6
23:37 Khisanth not #haskell?
23:43 Arathorn mm, point
23:43 * Arathorn tries there
23:56 Limbic_Region Judy isn't a haskell thing Khisanth
23:58 Limbic_Region Khisanth - http://judy.sourceforge.net/
23:58 lambdabot Title: Judy Arrays Web Page

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