Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-01-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 luqui (still talking, actually)
00:00 luqui just a sec
00:00 pdcawley patently not reading over your shoulder.
00:00 pdcawley LUQUI'S ROOMMATE => STOP DISRACTING LUKE!
00:00 putter TimToady: "they" plural, s/user/users scattered in space and time/
00:01 luqui okay, I think one semicolon is useful
00:01 luqui because there is definitely a place for options and parameters
00:01 putter Limbic_Region: good point.  though a lot of it was off line.  searching for A B C and Int Num multiples might do it.
00:01 luqui but I might take that back, actually
00:02 TimToady semi is a method for yielding to another candidate you have more confidence in than yourself
00:02 * pdcawley heads to bed. G'night all.
00:02 * Limbic_Region wasn't volunteering
00:02 putter good night pd
00:02 luqui TimToady, how so?
00:02 TimToady night
00:03 * luqui 's brain isn't thinking very clearly
00:03 luqui I am heavily multitasking, that could do it
00:03 * TimToady 's brain never thinks very clearly
00:03 TimToady drat, company meeting...will be distracted...
00:04 luqui get to work!
00:04 luqui :-
00:04 luqui (I will leave the final character to semantic inference)
00:04 allbery_b that, or you're speaking prolog at us
00:05 luqui hell_freezes_over :- luqui_ever_speaks_prolog_again
00:05 luqui oh no!
00:05 luqui there it goes...
00:09 putter re dependency management, here's a strawman proposal...
00:09 diotalevi no.
00:10 diotalevi % which is just the answer to the question should you ever ask it.
00:10 putter ???
00:11 diotalevi % this is just some prolog.
00:11 TimToady everything that is make-like is bogus; everything that is non-make-like is also bogus.  :)
00:11 putter ok.... continuing... ;)
00:12 * diotalevi thinks an after work beer is non-make-like and isn't bogus.
00:12 TimToady pay no attention to the peanut gallery behind the curtain
00:12 * allbery_b seems to have touched off a stream of consciousness
00:14 putter input is a "little" text file in cvs (using a ruby dsl I think).  tasks (perhaps hierarchical) with skills required, and dependence (single flavor) on other tasks.
00:14 putter generate dot vis graph.
00:15 putter random hacker can look at pretty graph, see what needs doing that they can handle, and its connection with the whole.
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00:16 putter rev to permits adding "stuck" entries, task "foo" is stuck because task "bar" doesn't yet do "mumble".
00:16 putter s/rev/rev2/
00:16 putter err, s/rev to/rev two/
00:17 putter so task "christmass" depends on tasks "test suite" and "working p6", and...
00:17 putter and "working p6 passes test suite", and...
00:18 putter thoughts?  questions?
00:20 putter I basically want a way for anyone stopping by to see that one with p6 and minimal hs skill can be doing "move primitives from hs to p6", on which "p6 prelude" depends, on which "all implementations use a common p6 prelude" depends, etc.
00:20 TimToady you should bounce this off of obra
00:20 putter obra?
00:20 TimToady Jesse Vincent
00:21 putter it's an area of interest for him?  he has done something similar?
00:21 TimToady Hiveminder
00:21 TimToady maybe
00:21 putter err, lack of simplicity.  I should have just asked.  "great.  why?"
00:21 putter ahhh
00:25 putter hmm..
00:27 putter I'm thinking of the strawman as more like the existing TASKS (or some such) file, but with dependencies, so it can be show as a graph.  hmm, and that might be a better model than the dsl.
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00:30 putter strawman proposal 2 - create a more regular version of TASKS, with shortnames/ids, and dependency info.  and trivial little tool to make graph from same.
00:32 putter I'd like to easily see, for instance, what kp6 needs, and what it provides.  how it fits in to the whole project.
00:32 putter thoughts?  (though I remember this is the wrong time of day for this...:/ )
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00:35 putter I wonder if it could be overlayed on pod format.  directory tasks/ of pods.  grep for TASK and DEPENDS.
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01:41 putter anyone still around who has been watching the project?
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01:45 * diotalevi thought prolog would be a nice way to write that thing. *shrug*
01:46 TimToady how do you define "watching"?
01:53 luqui diotalevi, good point
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02:26 putter TimToady etal: I'd like an "expert" to interview.  "Is tomorrow Christmass?"  "How does today principly differ from Christmass?"  etc
02:28 putter "Is self hosting required for Ch?"  "Could p6 on ghc suffice for Ch?" etc
02:29 putter "What are the strongest areas of the test suite?" "What are the weakest?" "What is missing entirely?"
02:29 putter "What are the strongest parts of the spec?"  "The weakest?"  "Missing entirely?"
02:31 putter re prolog, I thought of that. but... it increasingly seems like nothing computation is really needed.  the pretty picture/whatever is primarily a driving factor for asking questions like above, secondarily a mechanism for documenting the result.
02:34 putter It's project analysis/characterization which is missing/unwritten, rather than a tool to compute over it.
02:35 * allbery_b meant the ":-" halfsmiley, not suggesting writing anything in prolog :)
02:35 * allbery_b hasn't touched prolog in some 10 years, and is kinda fuzzy on it now.  and would like to stay that way :>
02:35 putter ah...
02:35 * diotalevi only said prolog because you can express trees nicely there.
02:36 allbery_b bad enough they were tossing around haskell's map and foldr in prolog on #haskell the other day :)
02:36 putter DOT is quite nice.  http://www.graphviz.org/Gallery.php
02:36 lambdabot Title: Graphviz
02:36 * diotalevi regularly tosses around p5 regexps in prolog on p5p. ;-)
02:39 obra putter: start collating those tasks. no matter what format.
02:41 putter indeed.
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02:43 obra and god knows we don't have enough visibility into what needs doing in useful bite-sized chunks
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03:07 audreyt putter: I did actually give a well-received academic talk in ICFP's Dynamic Language Symposium, which is why I got invited to POPL :)
03:09 audreyt putter: however, I was unable to attend POPL this year, as it turned out that I went back to Taipei from the airport, some 20 minutes before boarding the flight, for certain private reasons
03:09 audreyt so I don't even have to write the talk now ;)
03:10 audreyt but now I need to proc certain nonfun matters instead of IRC'ing. bbiab
03:10 audreyt &
03:14 putter Oh my.  I'm so sorry.  Let us know if there is anything we can do to help.
03:16 audreyt yes: do try to optimize for fun even under constrained resources :)
03:16 audreyt Juerd: I've installed trac on feather a few days ago; you okay with me enabling it and link it with the svn now hosted on feather?
03:17 luqui audreyt, trac is a spam magnet.  require an account to add bugs.
03:17 audreyt require an account to do any write operation.
03:17 luqui (probably already planned that)
03:17 audreyt and commitbit manages those accounts
03:17 luqui ohk
03:17 audreyt (yes, and already set up for $job)
03:18 audreyt commitbit++ # useful even for intranet projects
03:19 luqui well, enjoy nonfun matters... :-/
03:19 * audreyt goes back to the quest of contacting the travel agency for ticket refund, which is looking unlikely now at this Saturday noon
03:19 audreyt yeah, I'll try :-/
03:19 audreyt bbl
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03:24 audreyt (fwiw, it's all nonlethal and solvable, so don't worry too much, I'll eventually emerge :))
03:25 putter ok.  thanks.
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03:34 szabgab I still cannot compile Pugs, installed v6 and its many prereqs from CPAN is that necessary or is that what is actually causing the problems now?
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03:36 szabgab certainly perl Makefile.PL of Pugs did not complain on any missing modules (actually if there are CPAN prereqs for building Pugs as listed in INSTALL, would it make sense to add them to Makefile.PL as well?
03:38 szabgab I get "Unknown error" while trying to "make" pugs
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03:53 luqui szabgab, what version of ghc?
03:53 luqui or, where in the build process did it die?
03:54 luqui oh, well, I have to go.  I think pugs now requires ghc 6.6...
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04:02 szabgab I have compiled and installed ghc6.6 and pugs seems to use that ghc
04:03 audreyt nopaste the build log?
04:09 szabgab hi audreyt !
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04:10 audreyt szabgab: greetings
04:10 szabgab I went back to a clean PERL5LIB, so I am not sure now, why does Pusg complain about missing v6.pm ?
04:11 szabgab is that something that comes with Pugs or is that a prereq I should install from CPAN ?
04:11 audreyt that is something that comes with Pugs
04:11 szabgab so perl Makefile.PL did not seem to complain about missing it but then make stops lacking that module
04:11 audreyt can you paste the build log (or just the error lines) in
04:11 audreyt http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
04:11 audreyt ?
04:11 lambdabot Title: sial.org Pastebot - pasteling
04:12 szabgab do you mean what I get on the screen? or is there a log file ?
04:13 audreyt what you get on the screen
04:13 audreyt make > make.log
04:13 audreyt or something like that
04:14 pasteling "szabgab" at 192.117.110.30 pasted "error while compiling pugs on a clean (?) install" (12 lines, 945B) at http://sial.org/pbot/22341
04:15 audreyt you have "lib" in your PERL5LIB somehow
04:15 audreyt and it picked up the perl6 File::Find
04:15 szabgab yes, is that causing problesm ?
04:15 szabgab ah I see
04:15 audreyt yes.
04:15 audreyt let me think about how to fix that
04:16 audreyt there does not seem to be a good general solution :/
04:17 audreyt try taking out 'lib' from PERL5LIB and see if 'make' now passes?
04:17 szabgab I removed lib for PERL5LIB for now and so far it seems to be compiling ok
04:17 audreyt a general solution is to put our perl6 libs under lib6/
04:18 audreyt but for now, a warning/error in the main Makefile.PL to check for blind "lib" in PERL5LIB will do
04:19 audreyt can you add one to our main Makefile.PL? line 64ish should be a good place to put a "die" for it
04:19 audreyt also check for PERLLIB.
04:19 szabgab I'll try
04:20 audreyt szabgab++ # thanks
04:20 szabgab thank *you*
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04:28 svnbot6 r15063 | szabgab++ | Makefile.PL - check for naked 'lib' in PERL5LIB and PERLIB
04:29 szabgab sg else: in INSTALL v6-alpha is mentioned. If I am not mistaken it is totally separate project and has nothing to do with Pugs, right ?
04:30 audreyt it is a separate implementation
04:30 audreyt part of it (the grammar engine) is used by ./pugs
04:31 audreyt otherwise no, these two are independent, 'cept they are under the same repository
04:31 szabgab so do I need to install that too ?
04:31 audreyt no
04:31 audreyt not at all :)
04:31 szabgab OK, Ill try to make that clear in INSTALL
04:31 audreyt if that's not clear enough... update INSTALL to say that
04:31 audreyt heh, preempted
04:31 audreyt szabgab++
04:40 svnbot6 r15064 | audreyt++ | * Makefile.PL - Fix szabgab++'s PERLLIB check - it was typo'ed as PERLIB
04:40 svnbot6 r15064 | audreyt++ |   and somewhat Unix-specific; changed to use $Config{path_sep} as separator
04:40 svnbot6 r15064 | audreyt++ |   and catch cases like ./lib ././lib .//lib etc.
04:43 svnbot6 r15065 | szabgab++ | INSTALL - put the v6-alpha installation notes in another file: INSTALL.v6-alpha
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04:48 putter TimToady: ping?
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05:08 TimToady putter: pong
05:14 putter hmm, let's see.  is there an easy way to post a png image...
05:19 TimToady poke it into a public_html somewhere?
05:19 putter http://www.vendian.org/mncharity/TemporaryURL/deleteme.png
05:21 putter which is sort of putters mind-map of p6.  I need more task fodder.  thoughts?
05:26 TimToady would be nice if a unified AST was in there somewhere
05:27 putter a unified ast gives you ast macros, and... what else?
05:27 TimToady event model
05:28 TimToady hopefully it gives you consistency across platforms at a lower level than syntax
05:28 TimToady I/O model
05:28 TimToady docs processing flow
05:29 putter docs processing flow?
05:30 TimToady there's a reason I'm not a project manager.  :)
05:31 putter :)
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05:31 putter what is a document processing flow?
05:32 putter image updated
05:32 TimToady how the documents get from where and how they're written to where and how they're read by the end user
05:32 putter ah, ok
05:34 putter image updated
05:34 putter let's see...
05:36 putter documentation big picture...  the spec gets written, you write a book, what else happens?   a reference manual?  quick reference.  tutorials.  what else?
05:37 putter feel free to punt whenever.  getting towards 1am here.
05:38 TimToady need to get up at 5:30 myself, sigh.
05:38 TimToady but it's a good start
05:39 putter ok.  I don't have working svn at the moment, so I'll clean up and paste the DOT file.
05:40 TimToady maybe make writing the emitters to the platform a separate step...
05:40 TimToady though probably done in parallel up to a point.
05:40 TimToady Oh, the MOP!
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05:42 TimToady and maybe a circularity saw if the prelude is circularly defined.
05:45 putter hmm!...
05:51 * putter doesn't recall what circularly defined means vis the prelude...?
05:51 putter image update
05:52 szabgab ?seen nothingmuch
05:52 lambdabot nothingmuch is in #perl6, #darcs and #haskell. I don't know when nothingmuch last spoke.
05:53 TimToady things defined in terms of each other, on the assumption different platforms will nullify different parts to supply as primitives instead.
05:53 putter ah, right.
05:53 szabgab trying to run make smoke but I cannot install Test::TAP::Model from CPAN, any idea?
05:54 allbery_b "cannot install"?
05:54 allbery_b it's there
05:55 szabgab I mean make test on that module fails
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05:56 TimToady there is also still some work to at least move the todos to separate lines so different platforms can keep their status independently.
05:58 allbery_b yeh, force the install.  there will be failures when you use it as well, but at least part of the result is valid
05:58 allbery_b (but Test::TAP::Model only matters for "make smoke"; you can always fall back to "make test")
05:58 * allbery_b has been getting those Test::TAP::Model errors from the start --- and his smoke test attempts alway show individual tests passing but the whole file failing
05:59 TimToady I get errors but it seems to calculate file stats right.
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06:02 putter image updated :)
06:03 szabgab ah and I was showing off with the nice HTML reports the other day but could not create them on a plain Perl 5 test suit
06:03 TimToady kinda funny to have P6 on P6 out there without anyone depending on it.  :)
06:05 putter yeah.  I suspect there is another path which is "some p6, not Christmas but enough to run a compiler written in p6, used to bootstrap p6 on p6 on mumble".
06:05 putter for some backend mumble
06:06 TimToady arguably, P6 on P6 is just part of the test suite.  :)
06:06 putter :)
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06:08 putter I guess its basically replacing a core written in mumble, with one in p6, and then bootstrapping with a mumble emitter also written in p6.
06:10 TimToady depends on what you mean by "core"
06:11 TimToady writing a VM in Perl 6 is specifically not on the agenda any time soon...
06:11 putter :)
06:11 TimToady though maybe an OS or two...
06:12 putter core + emitter + prelude = p6
06:12 putter "runtime" perhaps
06:12 putter err, core + emitter + compiler + prelude = p6
06:13 TimToady still think "core" is far too overloaded
06:14 putter agreed
06:14 TimToady it's a machine, which may or may not be virtual...
06:14 putter does everything use a compiler written in p6?  even pugs?
06:14 TimToady that's the plan
06:14 putter ok
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06:20 putter "core" -> "machine".  image updated
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06:24 TimToady I'm gonna shutup now so we can all sleep...
06:24 putter :)
06:25 putter DOT file up as http://www.vendian.org/mncharity/TemporaryURL/deleteme.dot
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06:31 putter image updated
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06:50 putter image updated
06:55 putter Good night all.  I've no idea if/when I'll get back to the graph, so anyone/everyone should feel to take it over.
06:55 putter Keep up the good work.  Perl 6 is *important*.
06:55 putter &
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07:11 agentzh putter: sure. perl 6 is important. :)
07:15 agentzh fglock: PCR is still under development, right?
07:16 agentzh i think PCR may be a good starting point for me since it has a lot of meaningful unit tests. :)
07:18 agentzh fglock: i haven't figured out how to "run" mp6's test suite with mp6. it seems that t/*.t pick v6.pm instead.
07:26 agentzh ?eval 'aa' ~~ /a**{2..2}/
07:26 evalbot_r15026 is now known as evalbot_r15065
07:26 evalbot_r15065 *** Cannot parse regex: a**{2..2}␤*** Error: Error: quantifier not implemented: HASH(0x8fffbf0) at /home/audreyt/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5.pm line 162.␤␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
07:27 agentzh ?eval 'aa' ~~ /a**{2..4}/
07:27 evalbot_r15065 *** Cannot parse regex: a**{2..4}␤*** Error: Error: quantifier not implemented: HASH(0x8fffbf0) at /home/audreyt/pugs/perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Emitter/Rule/Perl5.pm line 162.␤␤Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::False, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 0, ␤  str => "", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
07:29 agentzh weird. i see there is a qunatifier implementation in Pugs::Runtime::Regex. maybe the rule parser can't handle that right now?
07:31 agentzh another question: is /a**{4}/ a valid perl 6 regex?
07:33 * allbery_b suspects it should not be since ** is already a quantifier
07:34 agentzh allbery_b: ** is a meta construct according to S05.
07:35 agentzh perl 6 regex /\d ** {1..6}/ is equivalent to /\d{1,6}/ in perl 5, i think.
07:35 * allbery_b had forgotten that change to regex syntax
07:35 agentzh allbery_b: ;-)
07:36 agentzh pe
07:36 * allbery_b dislikes {} as a rule anyway, it's devilishly hard to handle sanely
07:37 agentzh why?
07:39 allbery_b the runtime behavior tends to be atrocious.  perl and pcre note it as a pathological case; openbsd's standard regexp implementation can be easily made to take infinite time to match, and glibc's to take infinite space
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07:41 agentzh *nod* a lot of backtracking is involved here.
07:42 allbery_b (6-deep nested {1,6} expressions triggered the obsd and linux/glibc behavior)
07:44 agentzh ah
07:47 svnbot6 r15066 | agentz++ | PCR - added some more tests to t/01-iterator_engine.t.
07:47 svnbot6 r15066 | agentz++ | it's not meant to be complete; i'm just playing around
07:47 svnbot6 r15066 | agentz++ | PCR's internals. :)
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08:14 svnbot6 r15067 | agentz++ | PCR - added 4 more tests to t/03-match.t.
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08:40 agentzh ?eval "ab" ~~ /a?b/
08:40 evalbot_r15065 is now known as evalbot_r15067
08:40 evalbot_r15067 Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::True, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 2, ␤  str => "ab", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
08:40 agentzh ?eval "ab" ~~ /a?bg?/
08:40 evalbot_r15067 Match.new(␤  ok => Bool::True, ␤  from => 0, ␤  to => 2, ␤  str => "ab", ␤  sub_pos => (), ␤  sub_named => {}␤)
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09:08 svnbot6 r15068 | agentz++ | PCR - added some more tests to t/04-rule.t
09:17 svnbot6 r15069 | agentz++ | PCR - some more tests to t/05-var.t
09:18 * agentzh is learning p6 regex by tests.
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10:50 nothingmuch szabgab: pong
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11:45 Juerd audreyt: Please go ahead :)
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16:56 nwc10 Offhand does anyone know which synopsis ... ??? and !!! are in?
16:57 allbery_b S03/New operatos, at minimum
16:58 allbery_b ...preend I cn type
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17:05 nwc10 ah yes. Thanks. http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S03.html
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19:23 Khisanth ?eval 1 ?? 2 !! 3
19:24 evalbot_r15067 is now known as evalbot_r15069
19:24 evalbot_r15069 2
19:24 Khisanth ?eval 0 ?? 2 !! 3
19:24 evalbot_r15069 3
19:30 foo\ joined perl6
19:33 Khisanth ?eval 0..10:by(2)
19:33 evalbot_r15069 Error: ␤Unexpected ":by"␤expecting "_", fraction, exponent, term postfix or operator
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