Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-01-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:19 Juerd_ masak: Tiu, kiu volas featherkonton, skribu al mi retposxtmesagxon kun vera nomo, dezirata uzantonomo, kaj la kialo por voli la konton.
00:21 Juerd_ masak: Kaj ne iuj nomoj, sed siaj nomoj :)
00:24 luqui esperanto?
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06:28 masak juerd: bone. mi pensu iom pri la kialo k poste sendos al vi retposhtajhon
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07:41 * yves is back (gone 14:34:16)
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09:22 Juerd luqui: Yes
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10:36 jql ?eval %x = ('a' => 1); %y = ('b' => 2); %x.push(%y); %x;
10:36 evalbot6 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
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10:40 Juerd I don't think you can push onto a hash
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10:43 jql I would've been surprised if it worked
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11:02 Juerd I wouldn't. I have been wanting HASH.push since Perl 4 :)
11:03 Juerd Simply because writing @hash{keys %foo} = values %foo involves both a temporary hash, and ugly code :)
11:03 jql I'm not saying I would mind :)
11:03 Juerd Fortunately it's easily added to Perl 6 :)
11:03 Juerd Though perhaps I would name it .add instead of .push, as .push does sort of suggest sequential order
11:04 Juerd Maybe the ,= operator
11:04 Juerd Though killed and burried at least a dozen times :)
11:05 jql I presume there's no lazy hash? If so, .push becomes meaningful
11:05 * jql has disturbing thoughts this late
11:08 integral There would only be a lazy hash if someone actually sat down a wrote it.
11:10 fglock I wrote a lazy hash for pil-run - I was told not to do that :)
11:10 jql push %lazy.specs, /^something/ => -> { generate_value($^a) };
11:11 jql where do I commit my example? :)
11:13 fglock jql: language-related stuff is usually discussed in the p6-language mailing list
11:15 pasteling "evalbot_r15090" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (429 lines, 24.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/22492
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12:16 fglock 6 days left until vacations
12:16 fglock http://christmas.whipnet.net/kids/timeleft.html
12:16 lambdabot Title: How many days left until Christmas?
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12:27 nferraz hello, fglock! :)
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12:29 fglock nferraz: ola
12:36 fglock jql: I think the result of the discussions at that time was that you can have lazy hash, but you have to declare it explicitly
12:37 nferraz i was thinking on what you told me last night, about using grammars...
12:40 nferraz i thought defining something like: regex articles { (a|an|the) }
12:41 nferraz seems more elegant than the old-fashioned way...
12:44 fglock token articles { a | an | the }  -- more efficient
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13:56 fglock someone asked why wasn't 6-on-6 being written with pugs
13:56 fglock now I'm thinking why not
14:01 fglock it would be easier for kp6 to catch up to an existing compiler, rather to a planned one
14:01 fglock rather then
14:03 fglock hmm - rather than
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14:06 fglock I wonder why nobody seems to be interested on 6-on-6
14:06 fglock lunch &
14:09 Ziggy6 wow
14:09 Ziggy6 you mean no 6-on-6 project exists now?
14:09 Limbic_Region fglock - orgies are so passe
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14:24 Steve_p I thought a selfhosting 6-on-6 is what pugs was
14:27 Ziggy6 it seems so obvious that 6-on-6 should be written in pugs
14:27 [particle] um. it'll be written in p6, won't it? ;)
14:28 Ziggy6 right, but now, pugs seems to be the closest to p6, so...
14:29 Ziggy6 i noticed object.HOW.methods doesn't work
14:29 Ziggy6 HOW returns something though
14:30 Ziggy6 is it the same return value for all objects?
14:30 [particle] yes, object metainfo is largely unimplemented
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14:30 Ziggy6 that would seem like a nice place to start hacking for me :P
14:31 [particle] look for tests, if there aren't any, write em :)
14:31 [particle] are you using svn, or svk?
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14:31 Ziggy6 svn for now
14:32 Ziggy6 i'm still waiting for a svk2 ebuild
14:32 [particle] you may want to install App::Ack from cpan
14:32 [particle] it's a grep replacement, and works great in svn working copies
14:32 [particle] (eg. ignores .svn dirs)
14:33 Ziggy6 hehe, i ignore them visually :P
14:34 [particle] it also has colorful output... i' think you'll like it C<cpan App::Ack>
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14:43 wolverian argh, I need a printer.
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15:10 triplef Shouldn't "my $class = Class->new; my $thread = Threads->new(Class::function, $class);" send $class to Class::function?
15:12 [particle] what is Class::function here?
15:12 [particle] do you want to invoke that, and pass the result to new?
15:12 gaal if this is p5 and you want to send the coderef, better use \&Class::function
15:13 Ziggy6 ack is cute, 10x for the tip :)
15:13 gaal otherwise "Class::function" is evaluated and the result is treated as the first argument to new
15:13 [particle] anytime, Ziggy6
15:14 triplef gaal: Yes this IS perl5! I forgot to look at the channel title :-/ . But \$Class::function seems to work. Thanks alot!
15:14 gaal \&, not \$ :-)
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15:15 triplef gaal: Yes, that was what i was *thinking* :)  \&Class::function
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15:30 nferraz what is the new recommended way to pass parameters to a sub?
15:30 nferraz I know sub foo( $param ) will work, but $param will be read-only???
15:33 fglock nferraz: either make foo a method/role and then $param.foo, or sub foo( $param is rw )
15:37 nferraz mmm
15:37 nferraz does the $sentence ~~ s:[foo] = " "; work???
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16:48 * yves is away: Occupé
16:49 * nothingmuch is here, otoh
16:55 * statico is here in spirit
17:00 * allbery_b is sorta halfway here
17:00 [particle] "wherever you go, there you are, man."
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17:08 TimToady The Doctor is In
17:08 TimToady Psychiatric Help 5¢
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17:13 TimToady the main problem with doing 6-on-6 in pugs is that nobody has bothered to port a P6 regex engine to Haskell...
17:15 TimToady < nferraz> does the $sentence ~~ s:[foo] = " "; work???
17:15 TimToady this is an ambiguous question
17:15 TimToady on the surface, it doesn't work because of that colon there
17:16 TimToady it would have to be s[foo] = " "
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17:17 TimToady if you are asking whether pugs supports it
17:18 TimToady I don't think pugs has the syntax yet.
17:18 TimToady if you are asking about the relative precedence of ~~ and =, the answer is that the = is not a real =, and binds more tightly to the s[foo] than the ~~
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17:19 TimToady nferraz: see above
17:19 lumi It's the « s = » operator?
17:20 [particle] if it's not a "real" equals, what is it?
17:20 [particle] is it more like a <== ?
17:20 TimToady a delimiter between parts of a macro
17:20 nanonyme hmm
17:20 TimToady it's real enough to have += variants though
17:22 [particle] can it be hyperized?
17:22 TimToady or maybe it's real, but s[] is a bit like a listop in having a different precedence on one side than the other
17:22 TimToady no
17:23 TimToady s[] = is really mostly a macro
17:25 TimToady s[foo] = "bar" is sugar for .subst(/foo/, { $_ = "bar" }) or some such
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17:28 [particle] does that list of variants exclude ::=
17:28 TimToady if you look at what it desugars to, $_ ::= "bar" is rather nonsensical
17:29 TimToady it would have no effect on the s[]
17:29 [particle] yeah, i thought so
17:29 [particle] just making sure
17:29 [particle] probably that excludes =>, too
17:30 [particle] (looking over the assignment ops in S03)
17:35 TimToady nferraz: I'm wrong, it is implemented in pugs
17:36 TimToady ?eval my $_ = "f00"; s:g[0] += 2; .say
17:36 evalbot6 OUTPUT[f22␤] Bool::True
17:37 TimToady though it doesn't recognize x= there... :(
17:37 TimToady ?eval my $_ = "f00"; s:g[0] x= 2; .say
17:37 evalbot6 Error: Internal error:␤    Unknown pseudo-assignment form:Syn "=" [Var "$_x",Val (VInt 2)]␤Please file a bug report.
17:40 TimToady $_x ???
17:41 TimToady I'll bet it's desugaring to $_x=2 instead of $_ x= 2
17:45 rashakil joined perl6
17:46 TimToady fixed
17:49 fglock joined perl6
17:51 TimToady ?eval my $_ = "f00"; s:g[0] x= 2; .say
17:51 evalbot6 Error: Internal error:␤    Unknown pseudo-assignment form:Syn "=" [Var "$_x",Val (VInt 2)]␤Please file a bug report.
17:51 * TimToady twiddles thumbs...
17:51 fglock TimToady: re P6 regex engine to Haskell - mp6 engine could be reused
17:52 Ziggy6 what's mp6?
17:52 lumi Why is evalbot nude from version?
17:52 lumi s/from/of/
17:52 fglock Ziggy6: a minimal 6-on-6 compiler
17:52 nothingmuch it's the new EvalBot Pro0n edition
17:52 nothingmuch we need an op to /kick all the underage perl6 hackers
17:53 TimToady I think that's most of us
17:53 Ziggy6 mp6 = http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-MiniPerl6 ?
17:53 * nanonyme feels old
17:53 lambdabot Title: Revision 15092: /v6/v6-MiniPerl6
17:53 nothingmuch not just iblech?
17:53 fglock Ziggy6: yes
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17:54 TimToady Ziggy6: btw the current plan for implementing .HOW is to stitch in the MO code that is in (I think) src/MO
17:55 TimToady fglock: yes, I think mp6 could pretty easily be translated, given someone who has learned Haskell more times than I have...
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17:57 TimToady fglock: did you notice that we changed the meaning of | again to collect all DFAable prefixes, not just constant prefixes?
17:57 Ziggy6 oops, i had a shock, seeing all that Haskell code :)
17:58 fglock TimToady: yes
17:58 TimToady thinking of it as deciphering a transmission from Alpha Centauri.
17:58 fglock I'm figuring out how to implement
17:58 Ziggy6 so the rule engine from mp6 is complete?
17:59 fglock Ziggy6: it's not complete, but it is written in perl 6
17:59 Ziggy6 you were thinking about porting it to Haskell?
17:59 fglock and it compiles itself
17:59 * allbery_b misreads "rule enigma"
17:59 TimToady basically instead of /foo \d*/ returning just "foo", it returns "foo \d*", and all those prefix patterns get or'ed together into one DFA where the accepting states tell you which subpattern matched
17:59 Ziggy6 how did you bootstrap mp6?
18:00 fglock Ziggy6: pugs could translate mp6->haskell
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18:00 fglock Ziggy6: it was bootstrapped by a compiler chain: lrep -> v6.pm -> mp6
18:00 fglock lrep was bootstrapped by hand
18:02 fglock TimToady: ah, so the underlying engine is still the same
18:02 fglock it just adds a further check for longest token
18:03 TimToady yes, essentially
18:03 TimToady it would be nice not to reparse but that's an optimization
18:03 fglock problem is, if it finds a return block, for example
18:03 fglock hmm - not a problem, really
18:04 TimToady {...} is defined to terminate "pure" region
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18:04 fglock ah, ok
18:04 TimToady see most recent S05 changes
18:04 Juerd feather is reachable by its IP address
18:04 Juerd The DNS server is broken, and because of the storm, there is no way to reach Amsterdam right now :)
18:04 Juerd feather's IP is 194.145.200.126
18:05 [particle] /topic update?
18:06 Juerd Hm, there may be another way... Just a sec.
18:06 TimToady that's funny, I have DNS for it--just checked in a patch in fact
18:06 Juerd Probably cached by your ISP :)
18:06 Juerd Yay, the DNS machine is xen-ified
18:06 Juerd I can "xm console" it remotely
18:07 TimToady yeah, I get a non-authoritative answer
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18:32 fglock TimToady: re S05 - I'm trying to understand this part - "but not including any subrule more than once"
18:33 kolibrie lumi: evalbot didn't join the channel when feather came back up yesterday, so I started one and invited it here.
18:34 TimToady recursion will cause the token collector not to terminate
18:34 kolibrie I didn't find docs explaining all the versioning stuff, so it doesn't have that
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18:35 kolibrie anyone who knows how to fix evalbot can kill this one, start a new one, and document how to do it
18:35 TimToady X>>X>>X>>+<<X<<X<<X would be a legal token
18:35 fglock TimToady: ok
18:35 audreyt kolibrie: all I did was: "perl examples/network/evalbot/evalbot-loop"
18:36 audreyt I've summoned a new evalbot here; please drop the evalbot6 once it's here (should be in 5min or so)
18:36 TimToady thanks. how's backlogging going?  :)
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18:36 audreyt done with the syns
18:36 kolibrie audreyt: so you don't run the pugs step from the README, I guess
18:37 audreyt kolibrie: mm?
18:37 audreyt was confused a bit with S02 because in my mind Squid isa Fish
18:37 audreyt (in Chinese they share the word root)
18:37 TimToady heh
18:37 audreyt esp. you have a clause saying that "returns" can usefully be more specific than "of"
18:38 audreyt but then the example is showing two wholly incompatible types
18:38 kolibrie audreyt: examples/network/evalbot/README.pod says: pugs evalbot.pl evalbot6 irc.freenode.net:6667
18:38 audreyt which is mildly confusing given the Chinese foobar :)
18:38 audreyt kolibrie: README.pod predates evalbot-loop. fix it?
18:38 TimToady we just need a perfect language to categorize everything for us properly.  ;)
18:39 rgs ask john wilkins !
18:39 audreyt CosmicOS!
18:39 TimToady he's dead--I asked Umberto Eco instead...
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18:39 audreyt Lincos, rather
18:39 kolibrie audreyt: so just run 'perl examples/network/evalbot/evalbot-loop', and then how do you invite to #perl6
18:40 TimToady joined perl6
18:40 audreyt kolibrie: it's the default
18:40 buetow joined perl6
18:40 audreyt see evalbot-loop and grep for #perl6
18:40 kolibrie audreyt: ok, updating README.pod
18:40 audreyt kolibrie++
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18:47 audreyt ?eval 1+1
18:47 evalbot_r15092 2
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18:52 svnbot6 r15093 | kolibrie++ | evalbot - added documentation for starting the autoincrementing bot
18:52 diakopter ?eval 'r15092' + 'Christmas'
18:52 evalbot_r15092 0.0
18:53 diakopter ?eval 'r15092' && 'Christmas'
18:53 evalbot_r15092 "Christmas"
18:53 kolibrie audreyt: thanks for starting up the svnbot6 too
18:55 audreyt np :)
18:57 diakopter is it possible to set up a way of inputting tests to the evalbot, who would then add failing ones to svn?
18:59 audreyt sure :) wanna write one? :)
19:00 TimToady ?eval my $_ = "f00"; s:g[0] x= 2; .say
19:00 evalbot_r15092 is now known as evalbot_r15093
19:00 evalbot_r15093 OUTPUT[f0000␤] Bool::True
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19:17 __Ace__ joined perl6
19:18 __Ace__ hey folks
19:18 __Ace__ so.. in beta stage with Perl6 now eh?
19:18 __Ace__ ;)
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19:20 __Ace__ I truly hope its not another waporware...
19:20 audreyt TimToady: so the reason of accepts/rejects instead of ACCEPTS/REJECTS is ... ?
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19:23 __Ace__ I was also wondering... how much build in OO is there gonna be with Perl6? Kinda like the 5.next idea.. (although I wonder why the h-ll they dont have 5.prev in Ruby)
19:23 wolverian __Ace__, see spec.pugscode.org for the specs
19:24 __Ace__ ok
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19:26 TimToady audreyt: because it's also expected to be called directly, not just automagically?
19:28 luqui gidday
19:28 TimToady but if anything can be a "pattern", then maybe uppercase would be a good idea for collision avoidance
19:28 TimToady luqui: howdy do
19:28 luqui am I to infer that there are audreyts around?
19:29 TimToady shh!  be vewy vewy siwent
19:30 __Ace__ uh, having "loop" instead of "for".. isnt that just confusing?
19:30 TimToady it's there just to confuse you!  :)
19:31 luqui it saves "for" for the useful "for"
19:31 luqui ... it has been a really, really long time since I've used C-style for in perl code
19:31 __Ace__ I bet you guys know what you are doing but sometimes things are best as they are since they are so used..
19:31 TimToady that was how Perls 1..5 were designed
19:31 TimToady Perl 6's mandate is to break everything that could use breaking
19:32 __Ace__ so, now you wanna be inventive by making some new stuff up?
19:32 TimToady Hubris it is.
19:32 __Ace__ aha
19:32 TimToady well, and Laziness, since for is shorter than loop, and used more often
19:32 __Ace__ same goes with using ~ for concatination instead of . ?
19:32 luqui TimToady, and it works on infinite lists :-)
19:33 __Ace__ ~ is 2 buttons instead of 1 with the . :)
19:33 TimToady yes, method calls are more important than concatenation
19:33 __Ace__ haha, true
19:33 luqui __Ace__, that's because we spelled the three-button -> with one button: .
19:33 TimToady especially since most concatenation is done via interpolation
19:34 __Ace__ just as I thought, you know what you are doing ;)
19:34 [particle] how dare you make such accusations!
19:34 TimToady we don't really know what we're doing, we just know what we're trying to do.
19:35 __Ace__ TimToady: And how is that going then?
19:35 TimToady things still seem to be converging on a solution
19:35 [particle] such is the path of architects. making a quick succession of suboptimal decisions.
19:36 prism joined perl6
19:36 __Ace__ Me and my buddy did a simple javacompilator... and we thought that was hard.. Perl code cant be easy to break down..
19:36 TimToady if you want some of the original suboptimal reasoning, you can look at the old apocalypses too.
19:37 TimToady that's why we need a powerful pattern matching engine in Perl 6 to do it for us.  :)
19:37 __Ace__ hehe
19:37 __Ace__ and we did this in Java.. not C
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19:39 __Ace__ so, seriously, noone knows how much is left of all this before some release?
19:39 __Ace__ some Ruby/Python/blahblah folks say it will never come out...
19:40 TimToady our aim is convergence, not a particular area under the curve.
19:40 TimToady as long as the area is not infinite
19:40 __Ace__ would be nice to see how you respond to such accusation
19:40 TimToady precisely how I'm responding to it now.  Just keep peddling...
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19:41 TimToady whether it comes out or not has little to do with people who aren't contributing, only with people who are.
19:41 __Ace__ so, its not about finishing it, but to work on it?
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19:41 TimToady it's about working on finishing it.
19:41 __Ace__ :)
19:42 TimToady convergence on a solution is important
19:42 __Ace__ I would gladly help.. but I need some realy work where I get money first.. ;)
19:42 __Ace__ *real
19:43 TimToady yeah, know the feeling, believe me.
19:43 TimToady most of us here do
19:43 __Ace__ bet you _do_ get money from it... some way
19:43 __Ace__ or no?
19:43 TimToady I get some royalties from Perl 5 book sales
19:43 __Ace__ haha, thats sad.. I mean, only that.. ?
19:43 TimToady but aside from some early grants from the Perl Foundation, I'm entirely self funded
19:44 __Ace__ no sponsor money?
19:44 TimToady and about $250k more in debt on my house than when I started
19:44 __Ace__ "Hey, this is some good stuff. Here's $1000000"
19:45 TimToady would be nice, but not counting on it.
19:45 [particle] it'd be nice to get a million pennies, even
19:45 __Ace__ isnt it funny though.. some other folks make a living working with Perl code
19:46 Ziggy6 timtoady do you have a real job?
19:46 TimToady yes.  should be going there 'bout now...
19:46 TimToady I work across the street from Google
19:46 Ziggy6 wow
19:46 __Ace__ cool
19:46 __Ace__ with that?
19:46 Ziggy6 in seattle?
19:46 __Ace__ *what
19:46 TimToady Mountain View
19:47 TimToady company called Netlogic Microsystems
19:47 Ziggy6 did you apply there?
19:47 TimToady I was invited by an acquaintance who works there.
19:47 TimToady they are working on pattern matching in hardware, and they thought I knew something about that...
19:48 * obra grins at timtoady
19:48 kolibrie Perl 6 regexes in hardware ???
19:48 TimToady but it does chew up a significant amount of my time
19:48 Ziggy6 lol
19:48 Ziggy6 standard 8hrs/day?
19:48 luqui really??you seem to be here most of the day...
19:48 TimToady they expect me to spend part of my time working on Perl
19:49 Ziggy6 ah, you are helping them to build faster firewalls or something
19:49 TimToady yeah, things like that.
19:50 [particle] ziggy6: are you in seattle?
19:50 Ziggy6 nope
19:50 TimToady romania?
19:50 fglock btw, audreyt: Segula never paid your sponsorship :(
19:50 [particle] 'cause last time i checked, google's in california
19:50 Ziggy6 hehe tim, how did you find out?
19:50 __Ace__ TimToady: what say you about me having done a "Desktop Search" app in perl? :)
19:50 TimToady I saw the .ro first time you checked in
19:50 Ziggy6 ah, the domain name...
19:51 __Ace__ its more than that, but anyway..
19:51 TimToady __Ace__: er, my condolences?  :)
19:51 __Ace__ hehe
19:51 __Ace__ I actually did alot of research before I started... was like 2 years ago
19:52 Ziggy6 you're selling it?
19:52 __Ace__ the idea was to release it as open source or something
19:52 [particle] so it's vaporware, like perl6? ;)
19:52 Ziggy6 but you didn't release it yet
19:52 __Ace__ yea kinda ;)
19:52 __Ace__ problem is
19:52 TimToady most things fall into the category of "open source or something"... :)
19:53 __Ace__ I have ideas with it all the time I wanna implement, and even if its Perl (where things goes pretty much faster than doing the same in C), it takes time
19:54 TimToady Hopefully even faster in Perl 6, someday...
19:54 __Ace__ yea
19:55 Ziggy6 ?don't_eval "next" xx * ~ " christmas"
19:55 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
19:55 TimToady anyway, you're welcome to help however you like.
19:55 __Ace__ when I started research I wanted among other things: 1. make it like a standalone. one run and go file (like PAR) 2. have modules that I needed.. :)
19:55 thepler joined perl6
19:55 __Ace__ and other things I cant remember
19:56 __Ace__ TimToady: so, where do one start?
19:56 __Ace__ dl the source of perl6 and understand it?
19:56 TimToady most people start by playing with pugs, the prototype implementation
19:56 TimToady and then branch out into writing tests, or docs, or whatever
19:57 luqui __Ace__, it could be a couple years until you understand it
19:57 thepler joined perl6
19:57 TimToady putter was working on a diagram the other day of various places that people can contribute
19:57 luqui I'm not actually sure how long, since i started a couple years ago and don't understand it
19:57 TimToady doesn't stop any of us... :)
19:58 luqui but not in a perl5-this-is-the-most-horr​ible-thing-i-have-ever-seen kind of way
19:58 __Ace__ I suppose the code is devided into "modules" aswell eh?
19:58 * [particle] hopes putter sends a list email about that
19:58 TimToady anyway, you can get a commit to pugs really easily.
19:58 luqui but more in a perl6-this-is-the-most-abst​ract-thing-i-have-ever-seen kind of way
19:58 Ziggy6 hehe, i started 2 days ago, and i hope it won't take that long...
19:58 __Ace__ *divided
19:58 TimToady if you /msg me your email, I can send a pugs commit bit to you.
19:58 * luqui had to learn haskell along the way
19:59 * [particle] avoided the haskell part
19:59 [particle] mp6++
19:59 * Ziggy6 is in for haskell too
19:59 __Ace__ crap, need to register
19:59 __Ace__ cant pm otherwise
19:59 TimToady or obfuscate your addr here
19:59 [particle] but you can respond to somebody else's pm
19:59 TimToady or email to me
20:00 __Ace__ yea, using md5?
20:00 __Ace__ lol
20:00 luqui well, it has to be something we can reverse
20:00 __Ace__ yea, give me yours then
20:00 bpphillips joined perl6
20:00 TimToady email to larry at wall dot org
20:00 __Ace__ oki
20:00 luqui or note [particle]'s comment...
20:00 luqui nevermind
20:00 TimToady I already get tons of spam there...
20:00 __Ace__ I send right away then
20:00 luqui are you implying that __Ace__'s message will be spam :-)
20:01 Ziggy6 ah, didn't realise you were larry wall :)
20:01 BooK joined perl6
20:02 [particle] there's more than one way to spell it
20:02 TimToady I scarcely realize it myself. :)
20:04 __Ace__ "you got mail"
20:05 __Ace__ hopefully it wont see gmail as spam
20:06 TimToady commitbit sent
20:06 TimToady after svn/svk checkout it's customary to add yourself to AUTHORS as first checkin as a test.
20:07 TimToady might be a little trouble today because the svn server was having DNS issues
20:07 TimToady dunno if that got resolved
20:07 __Ace__ http://www.wall.org/ <- is this like a family page?
20:07 * luqui updated okay...
20:07 lambdabot Title: The Wall Nuthouse
20:07 TimToady yes, though most of the kid links are pretty old
20:07 [particle] TimToady: you still have home automation running w/ perl5?
20:07 TimToady you bet
20:08 TimToady my family would now be very unhappy if I took that down
20:08 [particle] great. next time we get you up to seattle i'd like you to talk about that
20:08 TimToady they like hearing the computer say who is calling on the phone
20:08 [particle] :)
20:09 [particle] does it tell you how much you weigh?
20:09 TimToady nope
20:09 [particle] well, room for improvement :)
20:09 TimToady it only tells me how smart I am.  'Course it lies...
20:10 __Ace__ hey, anyone here wanna try my "shell" Im working on aswell?
20:10 __Ace__ made in perl ofcourse
20:10 TimToady the first application is actually still one of the most important; the drier in the garage plays a noise throughout the house since we can't hear it directly when the garage door is closed...
20:11 __Ace__ TimToady: btw, is there a way to change the nick to "Ace"?
20:11 * luqui can only imagine how annoying that would be
20:11 __Ace__ usename I mean
20:12 TimToady probably, if not I can give you a new invite
20:12 __Ace__ only reason I use __Ace__ is since the others were taken :)
20:12 autark__ joined perl6
20:12 TimToady yeah goto preferences
20:12 __Ace__ although it suits nice with __END__
20:13 autark__ is now known as autark
20:13 TimToady A meme that is dying with Perl 5 though...
20:13 luqui (turned into =pod ?)
20:13 TimToady among other things
20:13 TimToady depending on the nature of __MUMBLE__
20:14 __Ace__ yea, Im dying..
20:14 TimToady file and line are just compiler "constants"
20:14 __Ace__ why are those gone btw?
20:14 allbery_b there are cleaner ways to do them
20:15 __Ace__ like?
20:15 [particle] it's now spelled $?FILE
20:15 TimToady $?FILE can be interpolated
20:15 TimToady __FILE__ can't
20:15 diotalevi joined perl6
20:16 TimToady =pod streams can have multiple of them, unlike __DATA__
20:16 TimToady things like that
20:16 [particle] see http://dev.perl.org/perl6/do​c/design/syn/S02.html#Names
20:16 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 2: Bits and Pieces - perl6:
20:16 __Ace__ when you say interpolated you mean? I think I know what it is... with gfx and images..
20:16 idiotmax joined perl6
20:17 __Ace__ I mean, combining between 2 values..
20:17 ekelund joined perl6
20:17 TimToady die "Error at $?FILE line $?LINE you dinglefungus!"
20:17 [particle] (descriptive errors)++
20:18 TimToady string interpolation, not point interpolation
20:18 TimToady more like "gnostic interpolation"
20:18 __Ace__ so, what do that do exactly?
20:19 TimToady same thing as Perl 5's die "Error at " . __FILE__ . " line " . __LINE__ . " you dinglefungus!"
20:20 TimToady but they parse as variables rather than symbols
20:20 TimToady so you can interpolate them like variables
20:20 * diotalevi is currently wishing Perl 5 didn't die with strings but rather with objects that happened to stringify.
20:20 * allbery_b has wished that a few times as well
20:20 TimToady Um, it does, if you give die an object
20:20 [particle] they're no longer preprocessor macros, they're variables now
20:21 allbery_b hm, but isn't that quasisupported in 5.6/5.8?
20:21 TimToady It's even quaisier supported in Perl 4
20:21 __Ace__ hey ekelund
20:21 __Ace__ cant pm.. need to reg..
20:21 diotalevi TimToady: yes, but the error $foo/0 thrown by the interpreter isn't an object.
20:22 ekelund __Ace__: hi
20:22 TimToady true nuff
20:22 diotalevi $foo/0 looks odd. I read it like "$foo, the function with zero arity."
20:22 __Ace__ TimToady: ok, think I got it now :)
20:22 * luqui too
20:22 luqui (to diotalevi )
20:23 __Ace__ so ekelund.. Perl sucks, and Ruby doesnt?
20:23 __Ace__ :)
20:23 allbery_b ruby looks a lot like perl5 with many of the wartier things removed.
20:23 allbery_b of course, so does perl6
20:23 luqui allbery_b, plus continuations
20:24 luqui (the only reason I have ever programmed in ruby)
20:24 luqui (or rather, the reason I started)
20:24 allbery_b aruably that's one of the removed warts :)
20:24 b_jonas joined perl6
20:24 __Ace__ well, ofcource ruby is "better".. its from 1995.. perl is from 1987
20:25 luqui Java is from... 1991?
20:25 ekelund __Ace__: I havnt said that :) but I like the ruby syntax. But never used ruby and perl for any big application, besides our compiler
20:25 * TimToady wanders off in a daze &
20:25 allbery_b heh
20:26 * luqui wonders how we started talking about ruby and other pls
20:33 _marco joined perl6
20:45 ekelund will there be any way to talk between ruby and perl 6? any supported ways
20:47 allbery_b parrot is a sort of .net-like thing which hosts perl6 and could easily host a ruby implementation if it doesn't already
20:48 [particle] the implementation of ruby on parrot is codenamed "cardinal"
20:48 ekelund will parrot use object based assembler as in .Net?
20:48 [particle] yes, parrot has an oo-assembly language
20:49 __Ace__ parrot is supposed to support alot of languges no?
20:49 [particle] yes
20:49 __Ace__ you can do things in diff lang. and they can then interact
20:49 [particle] that's a goal, yes
20:49 davidra joined perl6
20:49 allbery_b s/\.net/CLR/
20:49 __Ace__ sounds like a cool thing..
20:50 [particle] i want to use perl's nifty test modules in my tcl code
20:50 davidra is now known as autark
20:50 ekelund [particle]: how big is the execution time lost when running C/C++ in parrot?
20:50 [particle] you mean, benchmarks of c vs parrot?
20:50 [particle] for the same task?
20:51 ekelund and whats the benifits to use parrot instead of say Mono
20:51 ekelund [particle]: yes
20:51 allbery_b for one, mono is officially dead now, isn't it?
20:52 __Ace__ it is?
20:52 allbery_b as of a couple weeks ago
20:52 [particle] parrot is a register-based vm, unlike java & ms stack-based vms
20:52 [particle] parrot is designed for dynamic languages
20:52 wolverian alioth's shootout has parrot entries
20:52 __Ace__ mono dead? thats interesting..
20:53 ekelund [particle]: is it because of the ms - novell thing?
20:53 [particle] here's some details on the benchmark question: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/sandbox/bench​mark.php?test=all&amp;lang=parrot&amp;lang2=gcc
20:53 lambdabot Title: Parrot PIR benchmarks | Debian : AMD&#8482; Sempron&#8482; The Sandbox, http://tinyurl.com/25nw99
20:53 * allbery_b thought he'd herd work on it had stopped
20:53 __Ace__ and the reason is?
20:54 wolverian parrot still loses to c sometimes ;)
20:54 [particle] mono has pretty restrictive licensing
20:54 [particle] but compare parrot to perl5
20:54 ekelund hmm wasnt mono GPL?
20:54 ekelund or LGPL
20:54 wolverian mono is GPL, LGPL and MIT
20:55 wolverian "Mono's C# compiler and tools are released under the GNU General Public License (GPL), the runtime libraries under the GNU Lesser General Public License (LGPL) and the class libraries under the MIT License."
20:55 bpphillips left perl6
20:55 wolverian that might be considered more restrictive than the artistic license, perhaps.
20:55 rashakil__ joined perl6
20:56 ekelund wolverian: I see it as something good, then it will be free even if someone fork it
20:56 ekelund GPL will continue to be free after a fork I mean
20:57 wolverian GPL will be forked? :)
20:58 ekelund no you know what i ment
20:58 ekelund the software licensed with GPL will continue to be free
20:59 wolverian right.
21:04 ekelund wolverian: but that is when no one break the license ofcourse.
21:13 __Ace__ Checked out revision 15093.
21:13 __Ace__ nice :)
21:14 Aankhen`` joined perl6
21:17 bonesss joined perl6
21:18 larsen_ joined perl6
21:27 ekelund __Ace__: of perl?
21:27 __Ace__ yea, perl6.. pugs
21:28 __Ace__ damnit, ghc 6.6 isnt in the list in ubuntu.. only 6.4
21:28 Ziggy6 congratulations, __Ace__, you are looking at an 10 hour compilation ordeal
21:28 __Ace__ heh
21:28 __Ace__ need to get this haskell thing to work first
21:29 ekelund __Ace__: will you wont come tomorrow right? antar lördag
21:29 Ziggy6 compiling haskell takes several hours
21:29 ekelund does perl use haskell?
21:29 Ziggy6 also, get -extralibs
21:29 __Ace__ eller imon?
21:29 Ziggy6 if you compile without -extralibs, pugs won't work
21:30 ekelund __Ace__: jasa vilket foredrar du. Sorry we speak swedish :/ maybe should be privmsg
21:30 __Ace__ its probably better to meet tomorrow.. party on sat suits me better I think..
21:30 Ziggy6 didn't find this piece of info before I started compiling.. :D
21:30 __Ace__ where did you compile?
21:30 __Ace__ ekis: tomorrow and sunday
21:31 ekelund tomorrow then. can you work late to? because Im at work first (class with tdd then out to our customer)
21:32 __Ace__ sure
21:32 __Ace__ we are geeks arent we?
21:32 __Ace__ :)
21:32 __Ace__ so, we can stay up long coding
21:33 __Ace__ and to answer your question ekelund... there is a haskell implementation made for perl6
21:33 Ziggy6 on my 1.85Mhz barton
21:34 Ziggy6 used only 256 Mb though (vmware)
21:34 __Ace__ guess it was easy and fast to do... compared to the one in C..
21:34 ekelund hmm to run haskell in perl or run perl in haskell
21:34 nipra joined perl6
21:34 __Ace__ perl in haskell
21:34 ekelund because you run ghc so I guess no haskell intepret.. in perl
21:34 __Ace__ so, you can try perl6 code...
21:34 __Ace__ eh, ja :)
21:35 Schwern joined perl6
21:36 ekelund __Ace__: next friday will be nice with the conferance and all. Will stay one night at the hotel to. I and my coworkers will probably party in HBG to
21:37 __Ace__ would be interesting to see the presentation ;)
21:37 __Ace__ gotta finish up the perl thingy.. to make it even cooler ;)
21:37 allbery_b recent ghc has a library, which would allow you to run haskell embedded in perl if you had bindings for ghc-lib :)
21:39 ekelund __Ace__: yes would be good, maybe I can get someone to record it on a tape och dvd :)
21:39 __Ace__ haha, yea, would be cool
21:39 ekelund :)
21:40 __Ace__ possibly removing all that output data flooding out
21:40 Ziggy6 left perl6
21:41 ekelund hehe :) that to ofcourse
21:41 mj41_ joined perl6
21:42 ekelund I am thinking of running the app and record it to flash or something. I dont think my GNU installation is supporting the external tv yet. Then I can run the flash in os x and show them
21:42 Ziggy6 joined perl6
21:42 __Ace__ vlc2swf ?
21:43 ekelund that didnt work that well last time
21:43 ekelund :/
21:43 __Ace__ well
21:44 __Ace__ try xvidcap then :9
21:44 __Ace__ http://xvidcap.sourceforge.net/
21:44 lambdabot Title: Xvidcap Project Home Page
21:45 jferrero joined perl6
21:45 __Ace__ http://www.google.com
21:45 lambdabot Title: Google
21:50 ekelund __Ace__: see privmsg
21:50 __Ace__ Ziggy6 make -extralibs doesnt work with ghc
21:50 __Ace__ hmm
21:50 __Ace__ ekelund: yea saw it
21:51 ekelund __Ace__: nice right :) he is cool, helt off and his solo work :0
21:51 __Ace__ he's ok :)
21:52 ekelund __Ace__: he have had an concert in NY to. My friend Rebecka was leaving NY that day she had no time to see it :(
21:53 __Ace__ NY = New York?
21:54 Ziggy6 __Ace__: you need to just unpack ghc-version-extralibs.tgz in the same directory where you unpacked ghc-version.tgz
21:55 Limbic_Region joined perl6
21:55 __Ace__ I did
21:56 [particle] joined perl6
21:56 __Ace__ ran ./configure
21:56 Ziggy6 a simple make install shoul do it now
21:56 __Ace__ aha
21:56 ekelund NY = New York yes
21:57 __Ace__ Ziggy6: this is gonna take a few days now eh?
21:58 __Ace__ damn, why is there no 6.6 ready for ubuntu..
21:59 Ziggy6 depending on your RAM and CPU
21:59 Ziggy6 it took me a night
21:59 Ziggy6 for both ghc6.6 and pugs
22:00 ekelund __ace__: run dist. gcc
22:01 ekelund and add some nodes to the network :)
22:02 __Ace__ yea, well
22:02 Ziggy6 i'm kind of used to waiting for compiles, since i use gentoo... :D
22:02 __Ace__ hard to set up?
22:02 Ziggy6 i did that once and it was pretty straightforward
22:03 ekelund __Ace__: the dist. gcc?
22:03 ekelund or gentoo
22:03 ekelund :)
22:03 Ziggy6 distcc on gentoo :)
22:04 ekelund hehe :)
22:04 __Ace__ dist gcc
22:04 ekelund __Ace__: do you run the puppy linux ?
22:04 __Ace__ not atm
22:05 ekelund hmm dont think dist gcc is hard if you know what you do. A person used it to compile gentoo for my old 233 by adding his desktop and laptop to distcc :) instead of a week of compiling it took one day I guess
22:05 ekelund belive not think :)
22:07 __Ace__ nothing is hard if you know what you do
22:08 ekelund :)
22:09 ekelund or you use xcode on a mac and it will find nodes by it self over bonjour. if you config it that way. Never tried but if I remember it right xcode works like that
22:10 allbery_b ...assuming you haven't killed off the distcc stuff like I did because every so often it eats the machine
22:10 ekelund allbery_b: ;)
22:10 allbery_b (there is nobody else on my internal netwok to use it, it was just sitting there chewing CPU all by itself)
22:10 __Ace__ well, Im not compiling KDE so.. I skip that for now
22:11 ekelund allbery_b: its a lost not using the Hz :)
22:11 ekelund __Ace__: :)
22:12 allbery_b enh.  at home there's no point as there's only the mini (and rarely the iBook); on campus, well, I'd rather randoms didn't borrow my iBook on me :)
22:13 ekelund :)
22:25 ekelund __Ace__: see the privmsg
22:25 __Ace__ I still cant answer in pms
22:25 ekelund bah
22:26 ekelund __Ace__: see another channel we both are in
22:26 allbery_b register with nickserv.  not like they charge for it...
22:33 __Ace__ and if I forgot my pass?
22:35 ekelund hmm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Uk9va7IzaI&amp;NR
22:42 allbery_b I think that's where you use /stats p and talk to an ircop
22:44 __Ace__ ...still compiling ghc...
22:45 obra ghc is good that way
22:46 Limbic_Region since ghc bootstraps itself it compiles twice (like gcc).
22:47 weinig joined perl6
22:50 autark joined perl6
22:54 Odin-LAP joined perl6
23:15 mncharity joined perl6
23:16 mncharity is now known as puttter
23:16 puttter is now known as putter
23:19 putter Did the POPL keynote end up being about Perl 6?  Did it leave any artifacts? (video, slides, blog, etc)
23:19 lambdabot putter: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:24 putter luqui: indeed, fglock.  I hope to capture the knowledge of how people can help with kp6, but that second interview hasn't happened yet.
23:26 Psyche^ joined perl6
23:28 thepler_ joined perl6
23:28 dduncan joined perl6
23:38 pbuetow joined perl6
23:42 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
23:46 putter <log mark>
23:46 putter What is the state of the OO AST?
23:46 putter Not of migrating pugs to it, but the ast specification itself?
23:47 putter Largely done and expected to survive pugs implementation unchanged?  A rough sketch awaiting implementation to be fleshed out?
23:48 putter How close is it to the current pugs ast?
23:48 putter Largely backwards compatible?  A major rewrite?
23:50 putter It is no doubt at least partially my own bias, but the OO AST node keeps ending up as the leftmost node on my project dependency diagram.
23:50 putter Thanks.
23:51 putter lambdabot: ?tell gaal Any thoughts on http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_lo​g/perl6?date=2007-01-18,Thu&amp;sel=557   ?  tnx.
23:51 lambdabot Consider it noted.
23:51 putter lambdabot: ?tell audreyt Any thoughts on http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_lo​g/perl6?date=2007-01-18,Thu&amp;sel=557   ?  tnx.
23:51 lambdabot Consider it noted.

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