Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-01-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:25 facenew OT: a 30-min movie mocking kim jong il and his secret agent buying something from china: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EE52D9ED01495685
00:25 lambdabot Title: YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
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02:44 avar 02:44:04 < GumbyBRAIN> Send the perl6 developers infinite money and so on.
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05:41 masak ?eval my $a = 'I can declare the same variable'; my $a = 'twice in the same scope'
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05:41 evalbot_r15118 \"twice in the same scope"
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06:55 stevan audreyt: any chance we will see your POPL keynote online anywhere?
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07:55 audreyt stevan: I did not go to POPL, hence no keynote, hence no new slides :/
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09:57 fglock hi
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11:52 Ziggy6 hello
11:53 Ziggy6 fglock: i looked at kp6 and mp6 and have a few questions
11:54 fglock Ziggy6: sure
11:55 Ziggy6 first of all parsing takes to much time
11:56 pasteling "Ziggy6" at 141.85.0.67 pasted "Total Elapsed Time = 20.53264" (19 lines, 1.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/22551
11:56 Ziggy6 i've profiled it
11:57 fglock Ziggy6: the code generated by the parser makes several method calls on each character - this can be optimized with inlining (not planned for mp6)
11:58 Ziggy6 so you create MiniPerl6::Perl5::Match for every character?
11:59 fglock Ziggy6: yes
12:00 Ziggy6 second question: the parser is top-down?
12:00 fglock it's recursive-descent
12:01 Ziggy6 is it going to be that way in the final perl6 compiler?
12:04 fglock the plan is to have a bottom-up stage for operator precedence; the other parts would be recdescent
12:05 Ziggy6 why isn't kp6 self-hosting?
12:07 Ziggy6 it seems to have almost the same grammar as mp6
12:07 Ziggy6 or maybe i missed something
12:07 fglock kp6 is still under implementation - the lexical-subs tranform is currently breaking p5 compatibility, this is being fixed
12:07 fglock that is, it can't call the p5 runtime
12:10 Ziggy6 why isn't there a makefile to regenerate v6-KindaPerl6/lib5/
12:11 Ziggy6 would it help?
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12:12 Ziggy6 i mean with the compile times
12:12 fglock the workflow for compiling kp6 is not fixed - you can add or take AST transformation steps
12:12 fglock kp6-1 will have a script
12:13 Ziggy6 last but not least: how can i help? :)
12:14 fglock the current work under way is the implementation of the compile-time environment
12:15 fglock which is needed for fixing lexsubs, and for BEGIN blocks
12:17 Ziggy6 KindaPerl6::Visitor::LexicalSub?
12:18 fglock yes - the plan is to start by implementing a Closure class, with some introspection capabilities
12:19 fglock K::V::LS needs to be split: create the env, and then do the lexsubs
12:19 Ziggy6 why is introspection needed? can't we just use Perl5 closures?
12:20 fglock we need access to the lexical variables, and it would be nice if it can return it's source code if needed
12:20 fglock brb
12:26 fglock I didn't add the env prototype to the repo - one sec
12:28 fglock Ziggy6: the tricky part is that compile-time closures are both program and data
12:28 svnbot6 r15119 | fglock++ | kp6 - added docs/begin-block.pl - p5 prototype for 'env' implementation
12:30 Ziggy6 i don't understand, can you point me to the relevant part of the synopsis?
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12:31 fglock Ziggy6: see the discussions in kp6 docs/begin-block.pod
12:32 Ziggy6 compile-time closure = closure contained in a BEGIN block?
12:33 fglock pretty much all closures need to exist at compile-time; and some of them survive until run-time
12:35 Ziggy6 ok, i think i have enough pointers for now, i'll start digging
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14:46 Ziggy6 ?eval my @i = gather { for 1,2,3 -> { take $_ } }
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15:11 fglock Ziggy6: don't use -> there - it needs a variable name
15:11 fglock ?eval my @i = gather { for 1,2,3 { take $_ } }
15:11 evalbot_r15119 [1, 2, 3]
15:11 fglock ?eval my @i = gather { for 1,2,3 -> $x { take $x } }
15:11 evalbot_r15119 [1, 2, 3]
15:12 Ziggy6 thanks :)
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15:14 fglock putter: I wonder if the problem with the mp6/kp6 approach is that there is no low hanging fruit - it's stripped down to a few difficult tasks
15:15 [particle] *cough* documentation *cough*
15:17 fglock [particle]: hmm - there is /docs
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15:19 fglock I agree it's not 'end-user' documentation
15:19 [particle] i was taking a cheap shot, but end user docs would be very useful
15:19 [particle] as would a test suite
15:19 [particle] especially if this is to be used as a base for extension for p6
15:20 Ziggy6 anyway, the source code line count is low, and that's what made me start playing with it
15:22 fglock [particle]: I'll work a bit on docs
15:23 [particle] fglock++ # i know i'll appreciate that (and i think pmichaud will, too)
15:24 fglock meeting &
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17:04 fglock I'm looking for a starting point for kp6 docs
17:08 ZiggyE you could start by documenting the way kp6 should be run and how to regenerate lib5
17:08 avar explain what subset of p6 it covers
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17:09 fglock ok
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17:30 svnbot6 r15120 | fglock++ | kp6 - added docs/FAQ.pod
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17:42 gaal [OT] anyone know how to get a file to be install in /usr/sbin instead of /usr/bin with Module::Install? "install_script" puts it in /usr/bin but apparently relies on EU::MM to do the actual copying...
17:43 gaal *installed
17:43 svnbot6 r15121 | fglock++ | kp6 - more FAQ
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17:51 fglock gaal: maybe 'INSTALLBIN'
17:52 [particle] fglock: your faq states that kp6 allows foo(unnamed, named => 1, unnamed) in Sigs
17:53 [particle] that's not valid perl6 -- you know that, right?
17:53 [particle] oh, i see
17:54 [particle] it's array/hash/tree unpacking
17:54 [particle] but still, it looks broken
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17:54 [particle] i'd expect ($top) = @{$_[2]};
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17:55 fglock [particle]: fixing
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18:04 fglock [particle]: thanks
18:04 svnbot6 r15122 | fglock++ | kp6 - fixed the args unpacking example in FAQ
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18:46 TreyHarris TimToady: small typo in your last: "value is a specified" -> "value is specified"
18:46 TimToady thanks
18:46 * [particle] ~~ to TreyHarris
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18:55 * demq says hello
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18:59 ingy nothingmuch: ping
19:02 fglock hmm - maybe for mp6; need to find a way to do eval() too - http://cataclysm.cx/2006/08/19/closures-in-c/
19:02 lambdabot Title: eaten by a grue :: Closures in C
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19:08 VanilleBert ?eval ([2,1],[4,3],[6,5]).>>.reverse
19:09 evalbot_r15119 is now known as evalbot_r15122
19:09 evalbot_r15122 ((("2", "1"), ("4", "3"), ("6", "5")), ())
19:09 nothingmuch ingy: polettix
19:09 nothingmuch oops
19:09 nothingmuch tab completion ;-)
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19:10 VanilleBert hmm, i had thought        ((1,2),(3,4),(5,6))
19:10 ingy nothingmuch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ingy_d%C3%B6t_Net
19:10 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/29x9gc
19:11 nothingmuch earle martin can be mean
19:11 ingy you know him?
19:11 nothingmuch a tiny bit
19:11 ingy also Kwiki has been deleted
19:11 TimToady VanilleBert: write a test
19:11 nothingmuch he was also rightfully mean to lathos for his Acme::I::Rule thing
19:12 nothingmuch why was kwiki deleted?
19:12 ingy I don't really know
19:12 nothingmuch "dozens of others programmers with many more modules" ?
19:12 nothingmuch bah
19:12 nothingmuch try 6
19:13 nothingmuch and I think that two of them don't speak
19:13 nothingmuch and one has only started recently
19:13 VanilleBert TimToady: i dont know how... totally new to Perl, Perl6, (CVS)
19:13 ingy yeah, didn't he read his own link?
19:13 ingy anyway, who cares...
19:13 ingy publicity is overrated
19:14 nothingmuch well, I still think you're cool =)
19:14 ingy *kiss*
19:14 * [particle] hates ingy :P
19:14 ingy hey [particle], coe over to Cap Hill and say that...
19:15 * [particle] accelerates
19:15 ingy [particle]: you should come work over here today
19:15 ingy I'm at Online Coffee all day
19:15 [particle] maybe i'll drop by this afternoon
19:15 ingy lemme know...
19:15 [particle] i think kudra is coming to seattle next week
19:15 ingy oh yeah? weird
19:16 ingy but cool
19:16 ingy anyone know why?
19:16 ingy nothingmuch: are you coming to Seattle too?
19:16 ingy :)
19:16 [particle] visit family i think
19:16 nothingmuch nope
19:16 ingy I thought she was from Montana
19:17 [particle] bellingham
19:17 nothingmuch she is originally from MO
19:17 [particle] it's like montana with fewer cattle and more hippies :)
19:18 ingy [particle]: where are you now?
19:18 [particle] home, in madrona
19:18 nothingmuch mmmm.... hippyburgers
19:18 ingy come on over
19:18 [particle] i get off work at 2
19:18 ingy nothingmuch: join #kwiki
19:18 nothingmuch [particle]: when ingy says come on over you do it, CLEAR?!
19:18 [particle] (have phone meetings here)
19:18 nothingmuch ingy: i don't use or know how to use kwiki...
19:19 nothingmuch (from an admin perspective)
19:19 nothingmuch i doubt i'd have anything to contribute
19:19 ingy nothingmuch: it's undergoing serious revision
19:19 ingy you should come over...
19:20 ingy I'm migrating it to P6
19:20 * fglock will be in Capao da Canoa beach for a whole month
19:20 ingy fglock: I assume that's a good thing?
19:20 fglock yes, except for being offline
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19:21 nothingmuch internet access is overrated
19:21 nothingmuch you don't *really* need it to survive
19:21 * stevan looks sideways at nothingmuch
19:21 * nothingmuch ponders quitting to go live in a tree house in brazil
19:22 fglock nothingmuch: you can have wind power and satellite network
19:22 * stevan shudders at the thought of having to get pron from corner store/gas station
19:22 nothingmuch fuck wind power
19:22 nothingmuch in fact
19:22 nothingmuch fuck potable water
19:22 nothingmuch and clothes!
19:23 nothingmuch well... with the coming ice age clothes might not be so overrated
19:23 fglock clothes are good for mosquitoes
19:23 stevan yeah man,.. all you need is a sharp stick and grub worms
19:24 nothingmuch oh yes... mosquitos... hmm
19:26 [particle] ingy: which online? olive or pine?
19:26 ingy [particle]: pine
19:27 ingy pine and 14th
19:27 [particle] sure, yeah. that's a quick spit from here
19:29 VanilleBert ?eval ([1,2],[3,4,5]).>>.elems
19:29 evalbot_r15122 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&>>elems"
19:29 VanilleBert ?eval (1,2).elems
19:29 evalbot_r15122 2
19:30 VanilleBert hmpf
19:31 TimToady basically I think .>>. is unimplemented
19:31 VanilleBert ("ab", "abc").>>.chars
19:31 VanilleBert ?eval ("ab", "abc").>>.chars
19:31 evalbot_r15122 (2, 3)
19:32 VanilleBert :D
19:34 TimToady basically I'm wrong. :)
19:35 TimToady basically I think .>>. is incorrectly implemented.  :)
19:35 VanilleBert i thought so ;)
19:36 VanilleBert ?eval (<a b>, <a b c>).>>.end
19:36 evalbot_r15122 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&>>end"
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19:37 VanilleBert problems with Arrays in the Array, huh? were is the implementation? want to read
19:38 fglock ?eval sub elems { @_.elems } ([1,2],[3,4,5]).>>.elems
19:38 evalbot_r15122 ((1, 1), (1, 1, 1))
19:38 nanonyme hmm, scary
19:38 fglock it's hypering recursively
19:39 TimToady ah
19:40 TimToady ?eval ([1,2],[3,4,5]).map: {.elems}
19:40 evalbot_r15122 (2, 3)
19:41 VanilleBert ?eval ([2,1],[4,3],[6,5]).map: { .reverse }
19:41 evalbot_r15122 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
19:42 VanilleBert na ~
19:43 VanilleBert ?eval ([2,1],[4,3],[6,5]).map: { [ .reverse ] }   # oO
19:43 evalbot_r15122 ([1, 2], [3, 4], [5, 6])
19:43 VanilleBert thats what i want :D
19:50 VanilleBert eval: ([2,1],[4,3],[6,5]).>>.reverse
19:50 VanilleBert getting: ((("2", "1"), ("4", "3"), ("6", "5")), ())
19:50 VanilleBert this is still a mystery to me
19:50 buubot VanilleBert: Error: syntax error at eval line 1, near ".>>"  
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19:59 fglock &
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20:46 dduncan TimToady, regarding r13532, I think you said "bracket" where you meant to say "parenthesis", in: "A C<do> is assumed immediately after any opening bracket,..."
20:46 dduncan so then that's a typo
20:47 [particle] 'parenthesis'.isa('bracket') == Bool::True
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20:47 dduncan so what is a [] then?
20:48 [particle] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracket
20:48 lambdabot Title: Bracket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
20:48 [particle] however, i don't know that timtoady really meant 'bracket'
20:49 dduncan I believe that in technical talk, [] alone means bracket, while {} is called brace and () parenthesis
20:49 dduncan or those are common short names to distinguish them
20:50 weinig|bbl is now known as weinig
20:50 TimToady I mean any kind of opening bracket, in particular including both ( and [
20:50 dduncan okay
20:51 TimToady especially since one of the places you *really* want list comprehensions is inside [...]
20:52 dduncan well, no-op then
20:52 TimToady but it's problem that there isn't an obvious generic term for bracketing characters that isn't overloaded somehow
20:52 TimToady not a no-op
20:52 TimToady at least, not in list context
20:52 dduncan I don't suppose that "grouping delimiter" would suffice as a generic term?
20:52 TimToady everyone would look at us funny
20:53 TimToady also, I think there's a tradition of calling parentheses "round brackets"
20:53 [particle] yes, in england i've heard that
20:53 dduncan mind you, I recently learned that "butter" has a more broad meaning than just the yellow spread made from milk products ... eg, that margerine and some fruit spreads are also butter by the broader meaning
20:53 TimToady I tend to say "square brackets" when I mean [...] specifically
20:54 dduncan yes, of course
20:54 TimToady "apple butter"
20:54 dduncan ... square brackets, curly braces, round parenthesis
20:54 dduncan those are very unambiguous
20:54 TimToady :P
20:54 [particle] cake, hair, pi
20:54 dduncan and yes, I had a problem with the name "apple butter" until I learned what "butter" actually meant
20:55 dduncan that name made it sound like a combination of apple sauce and milk butter, which sounded disgusting
20:55 TimToady I always took "butter" to be a metaphor in such cases.
20:56 TimToady dentist &
20:58 dduncan p.s. my saying "well no-op then" above was just my way of saying, in that case, "never mind the change suggestion then"
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21:14 ingy [particle]: are you headed here and when?
21:15 [particle] if i do it'll be at least an 90min from now
21:15 [particle] will you be there?
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21:25 ingy [particle]: wanna meet up later this evening?
21:25 svnbot6 r15123 | putter++ | kp6 FAQ - added information from http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2007-01-22,Mon&amp;sel=22#l66 .
21:25 lambdabot Title: #perl6 2007-01-22,Mon, http://tinyurl.com/2lvl9s
21:25 [particle] ingy: i can probably do that
21:25 ingy maybe meet here at 7pm
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21:33 mncharity is now known as putter
21:33 putter gaal: ping?
21:34 putter audreyt: ping?
21:34 [particle] ingy: okie. you going offline?
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21:46 ingy [particle]: at some point I need to go for a run...
21:52 ingy nothingmuch: ping
21:55 svnbot6 r15124 | putter++ | Move "Integrating KP6 with the test suite" from TASKS to TALK.
21:55 svnbot6 r15124 | putter++ | In which putter argues with himself over its usefulness.
21:55 svnbot6 r15125 | putter++ | kp6 FAQ - mention "no tests pass".
21:55 putter lambdabot: ?tell fglock *When* are you disappearing for a whole month?  (It's in the kp6 FAQ:)
21:55 lambdabot Consider it noted.
22:19 svnbot6 r15126 | putter++ | TASKS - added "Capture fglock/putter interview info to kp6 faq."
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22:27 svnbot6 r15127 | putter++ | PROBLEMS - if "cpan -i  Task::Smoke" fails because  Task::TAP::Model 0.06 install fails, just force install Task::TAP::Model.
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22:31 putter Is pil2js known to be broken?
22:31 putter I'm getting $ ./pugs -Bjs -e 'say 3;'  36483: ReferenceError: _26Main_3a_3astatement_control_3acond is not defined
22:32 putter Same error in  make test-js .
22:40 nothingmuch ingy: pong
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22:46 putter anyone: does ./pugs -Bjs -e 'say 3;' work for you?
22:49 audreyt fixing.
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22:54 putter danke
22:56 stevan audreyt: how was POPL?
22:56 TimToady she didn't go
22:56 stevan ??
22:56 TimToady family emergency
22:56 stevan ah
22:57 stevan audreyt: well then I hope @family is well
22:57 audreyt it's better now
22:57 TimToady audreyt: I hope P6 still fits in your head...  :)
22:58 stevan audreyt: we can do an informal POPL at some YAPC this year then :)
22:58 stevan we can all pretend to be PhDs for you :)
22:58 dduncan good to hear
22:58 audreyt TimToady: I hope so too, though at the moment jifty claims my spare attention because obra is arriving soon...
22:59 audreyt as in, less than 24 hours
23:01 audreyt and I wasted too much time watching the LoTR DVD set :/
23:01 nothingmuch it's not worth it ;-)
23:01 nothingmuch that movie really managed to take away 90% of the charm of the book
23:01 nothingmuch leaving just the looooooong story
23:01 nothingmuch s/movie/vague plural/;
23:02 audreyt well, but when you have verses in the book running through your head in sync with movie...
23:02 dduncan I regret that the movie left out the ending of the book
23:02 dduncan eg, how the home is not unaffected by the worldwide events
23:02 nothingmuch that bugged me too
23:03 nothingmuch but not as much as how all the characters were flattenned
23:03 dduncan that was a powerful and important part of the story
23:03 TimToady well, my favorite chapter was A Conspiracy Unmasked, and that disappeared as well
23:03 audreyt putter: the problem is that JS.pm needs to accomodate statement:cond form
23:03 TimToady nevertheless, I think the movies will help some people read the book that would not otherwise have sufficient imagination
23:03 audreyt which unlike the :if form, takes two arguments as full closures instead of blocks
23:04 audreyt and so will need to do the pil2js equiv of closure apply .()
23:04 dduncan in regards to the recent "Numeric Semantics" thread on p6l, I wanted to clarify something here before I replied on p6l ...
23:04 TimToady I just revised conditionals and loops return values to make it easier to write list comprehensions...
23:04 putter audreyt: regards moving things from Prim.hs to Prelude.pm... my fuzzy impression is you've said this is currently doable, and a worthwhile thing.  are both of those impressions true?
23:04 audreyt I'm checking in something that doesn't do the .() -- it's 7am here and I think I can't think too well
23:04 putter ok.
23:05 putter I'll add it to TASKS/TALK ;)
23:05 putter my thanks
23:05 dduncan specifically, regarding the relationship between Num and Int and which does what ... or what you get when you say 1.0 ...
23:05 * putter contemplates creating a project_planning/QUESTIONS_FOR_AUDREYT file
23:05 audreyt putter: my fuzzy impression is as precise as yours
23:06 putter lol
23:06 audreyt as in, I recall its doability and worthwhilability
23:06 putter hmm, let's see, other 7am questions...
23:06 audreyt but as of which parts of Prim.hs is amenable this way I really have no idea
23:07 dduncan I would be inclined to say that Int and Num are completely disjoint, but that Int values and Num values can be mapped, as numbers can be mapped with character strings ... also, that any literal numeric declared with a radix point in it is a Num, while those without are an Int
23:07 dduncan so 1.0 and 1. are num, 1 is an int
23:07 luqui It is certainly not the case that Num does Int
23:07 luqui whether Int does Num is up for debate
23:07 luqui or already defined :-)
23:08 svnbot6 r15128 | audreyt++ | * PIL2JS - Prelude/JS: Add a stub statement:cond form that
23:08 svnbot6 r15128 | audreyt++ |   compiles but doesn't really work: The problem is that the
23:08 svnbot6 r15128 | audreyt++ |   body/else arguments need to be applied as closure, not as block.
23:08 dduncan one thing I need a bit of a refresher on is whether a .does relationship is intended to say that one is a subset of the other, or whether they are just mappable
23:08 putter getting a feel for OO AST... how far away is, say, pugs being able to output the OO AST for PIL2JS, like it currently does the old one.  in audreyt-person-days say, order of magnitude.  more like 1, 10, 100, 1000?
23:08 dduncan eg, if Int and Num are like I said, Int is not a subset of Num, but they are mappable, so I don't know if .does is appropriate ...
23:09 putter person-days rather than calendar days
23:09 luqui is there any difference between a <: b, and a mappable to b?
23:09 dduncan on the other hand, if Num .does Str, then it makes sense for Int .does Num
23:09 luqui (I mean semantically within the language)
23:10 audreyt putter: MO integration and adjustment for AST... order of magnitude is 10, that is if I get sufficient sleep
23:10 nipra joined perl6
23:11 dduncan Is there agreement or disagreement here that 1.0 and 1. should be Num and not Int?  I think that best fits with programmer intentions, and makes parsing easy and predictable.
23:11 dduncan just 1 should be Int
23:11 TimToady luqui: what do you think about [...] implying [do ...]?
23:11 putter audreyt: thanks :)
23:11 TimToady Last I checked 1. was illegal
23:11 dduncan okay
23:11 Aankhen`` joined perl6
23:12 luqui TimToady, well, I think it's obvious if nothing else
23:12 dduncan then I say 1.0 should be a Num ... agree or disagree?
23:12 luqui (4 if 1 < 2)
23:12 luqui what else could that mean?
23:12 audreyt TimToady: I may be totally out of date... but [say 1; say 2]
23:12 audreyt is there a do on both sides of ; ?
23:12 audreyt [4 if 1; 5 if 2] # more concrete
23:12 TimToady good question
23:13 TimToady seems to be implied after ; for ordinary statements...
23:13 TimToady so maybe there too.
23:13 luqui but I'm not sure about it's expressive power as a list comprehender.  have to see it in practice...
23:13 TimToady [...] just harvests all values instead of final
23:13 audreyt what does (4 if 1; 5 if 2) mean nowadays?
23:13 audreyt do infix:<;> has some use in () ?
23:14 TimToady no use currently, so probably multidim there too
23:14 luqui hey, you know, or a syntax error?
23:14 audreyt and ; inside {} forces statement meaning
23:14 luqui eh
23:14 luqui not really necessary
23:14 luqui the way that would catch an error is by a misbalanced parenthesis, which will be caught later anyway
23:14 TimToady depends on whether you want a multidim hash, I suppose.  :)
23:15 audreyt not sure multidim hash can be naturally expressed with semi
23:15 audreyt in construction form anyway
23:16 TimToady well, you'd like multidim slice subscripts, anyway
23:16 TimToady basically the context decides what to do with ; in any case
23:16 TimToady most of the time we know we can spread void context over all-but-last statement
23:18 audreyt presumably (1, 2 ; 3, 4)[1][1] is 4?
23:18 TimToady anyway, without having thought it through entirely, it feels like there's a balance point in there that allows list comprehensions without compromising parsing typology
23:18 TimToady dunno, certainly (1,2; 3,4)[1;1] is 4
23:19 * luqui isn't sure of TimToady's definition of typology
23:19 TimToady is anyone?
23:19 TimToady :)
23:20 TimToady it's an open question whether [][] is isomorphic to [;] in P6
23:20 luqui okay, funny.  but I'm saying I have no idea what you meant by the latter part of that senteence.
23:21 TimToady I mean if something's a closure and not a hash composer, we can optimize it.
23:21 TimToady knowing statements are mostly in void context
23:22 TimToady after reading the Lua paper I'm sorely tempted to do all composers with [...] and leave bare {...} only for closures
23:22 Psyche^ joined perl6
23:22 luqui which lua paper?
23:22 * luqui wouldn't be terribly opposed to that
23:22 TimToady sec
23:23 audreyt TimToady: well, sub { @@_[1][1] }.(1,2 ; 3,4) is 1, iirc.
23:24 TimToady http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/~lhf/ftp/doc/hopl.pdf
23:24 svnbot6 r15129 | putter++ | TASKS/TALK - added "Fix PIL2JS".
23:26 TimToady audreyt: yes, but that's with special unpacking
23:27 TimToady or special packing, depending on how you look at it.
23:27 TimToady take each slice and assume [...] around it...
23:27 audreyt *nod*
23:28 * putter muses "if redsix was taught to emit PIL1, PIL2JS could start evolving again..."
23:28 TimToady but I kinda like the recent development that things like "take" put multidim boundaries in that are usually ignored.
23:28 TimToady presumably map is the same.
23:29 devogon joined perl6
23:31 TimToady but arguably it's lists of lists all the way down, and we're just conventionally ignoring the top N dimensions where N is usually 1.
23:35 dduncan the p6l post is sent
23:39 svnbot6 r15130 | putter++ | TALK - added "KP6 on PIL2JS?"
23:39 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
23:40 putter audreyt: so oo ast looks vaguely like Q2 or Q3 2007?
23:40 putter s/vaguely/something very vaguely/
23:44 explorer joined perl6
23:47 audreyt putter: I don't really know. I think I can resume pugswork once $home work settles a bit.
23:47 audreyt I've diverted $job away mostly
23:48 audreyt but we'll see. I need to run the bank to try to figure out how to abort ACM's reimbursement wire trasfer now...
23:48 audreyt bbl
23:49 audreyt er, run to the back.
23:49 audreyt *bank
23:49 audreyt (evidently sleep deprived ;)) &
23:49 putter np.  i'm just attempting a rough quantitative feel for when various milestones on the road to xmas might be...
23:52 putter Though putter is a bit puzzled.  He doesn't see any missing prerequisites for a full p6 implementation in p6 being written *now* on pugs.  So why isn't it?
23:53 TimToady mostly because pugs itself doesn't have its own rule engine yet, I think.
23:54 TimToady it's always been a bridge to pcre, parrot, or v6...
23:55 luqui and of course, pugs's data structure handling is buggy, so it's hard to make progress
23:56 luqui (I've been trying to debug it, but I can't get anywhere)
23:56 diotalevi joined perl6
23:56 jrigby joined perl6
23:56 putter no nicely working grammar -> can't write grammar yet -> working on parser is unattractive
23:57 putter luqui: "data structure handling is buggy", elaborate?
23:57 putter once upon a time there was:  pugs oo is buggy -> hard to make progress on something as large as a p6 implementation (but my fuzzy impression is this is believed to no longer be the case)
23:58 putter there is also:  no oo ast spec -> discourages writing core ast code and emitters
23:59 putter are those 2/3 the only things discouraging folks from beginning a full p6-in-p6 implementation now?  any other thoughts?

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