Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-01-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 [particle] perlers aren't used to dimensions greater than one
00:01 TimToady having one level of auto-list-interpolation also fits in well with the notion that Perl likes interpolative solutions
00:02 TimToady people grok "Answer = $answer\n" a lot better than "Answer = " ~ $answer ~ "\n"
00:03 [particle] which is why we now have $?LINE etc
00:04 TimToady P6 is supposed to be more like Perl than P5.  :)
00:05 TimToady (in the good ways...)
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00:06 [particle] p6 is definitely trending in the interpolative direction
00:06 putter re learning monads, one approach is to learn arrows first.  they are a later generalization of monads, and at least to me, make far more sense.  then one can work backward to understanding the more limited and twisted monads. ;)
00:07 putter http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~rjmh/afp-arrows.pdf  http://www.haskell.org/arrows/ etc
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00:13 Ziggy6 pugs has a lexer?
00:14 Ziggy6 found it, Lexer.hs :D
00:15 [particle] not many languages without lexers exist
00:15 [particle] written latin almost qualifies
00:16 putter Ziggy6: also Parser/*
00:16 [particle] GALLIAESTOMNISDIVISAINPARTESTRES
00:16 Ziggy6 i guess it's too hard to learn monads, parsec and to try to understand the complex pugs parser at the same time :)
00:19 * allbery_b has monads and parsec down, but the lexer has defeated him
00:20 putter the parser can certainly be skimmed.  one can get a feel for it's structure without yet knowing enough to write or modify bits...
00:20 allbery_b specifically, trying to fix "- f" being parsed as filetest operator "-f" without breaking everything else
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00:21 allbery_b couple of us tried to attack it last weekend, managed to break things in such a way that the test suite went into an infinite loop :/
00:23 TimToady languages with mandatory endings tend to be self clocking
00:24 TimToady provided the endings can usually be disambiguated from the roots
00:24 TimToady kanji vs okurigana works that way too
00:25 allbery_b <-- learning Hebrew.  suffixes and prefixes can *usually* be unambiguously removed from the roots... but not always
00:25 [particle] there are always irregular forms to gum up the works
00:27 allbery_b not to mention the incredible is-it-a-vowel-or-a-consonant-here? vav
00:29 putter [particle]: re "YOUONLYNEEDVOWELSORSPACESBUTNOTBOTH", "Y NLY ND VWLS R SPCS BT NT BTH".  my fuzzy impression is ancient greek went back and forth a bit.
00:30 putter though the human reader may do an entirely separate pass at the first in order to "tokenize" it...
00:31 putter or read aloud and use language auditory word recognition
00:31 allbery_b took 'em a while to all agree to appropriate otherwise unused phoenician/aramaic letters for vowels :) it's not like the ancient Greeks were particularly unified
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00:33 luqui @pl \a -> (>>= b a)
00:33 lambdabot (=<<) . b
00:33 [particle] nope, plenty of city/states
00:34 allbery_b interesting that it parsed that, I think it's illegal (need parens around (>>=) to use it as a prefix op)
00:34 allbery_b @pl \a -> b >>= a
00:34 lambdabot (b >>=)
00:35 allbery_b @pl \a -> (>>=) b a
00:35 lambdabot (b >>=)
00:35 allbery_b aha
00:35 allbery_b @unpl (=<<) . b
00:35 lambdabot (\ d g -> g >>= (b d))
00:36 allbery_b ah, right
00:36 allbery_b duh
00:36 * luqui didn't know about unpl
00:41 allbery_b @. redo unpl (=<<) . b
00:41 lambdabot (\ d g -> do { a <- g; (b d) a})
00:49 luqui what's that?
00:49 luqui expands even more?
00:50 luqui (that's a great learning tool though)
01:00 allbery_b redo converts >>= form back to do form; . is composition (it's a haskell lambdabot, of *course* it does composition...)
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01:01 allbery_b sadly, only in prefix form
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01:13 putter random musing (as I continue to try to picture how all the pieces we have could be variously assembled to get us nearer to xmas)...
01:14 putter pil2run is our best backend after pugs itself.  its jsperl5 allows it to
01:15 putter use p5.  a r5r (p5 regexs with <rules>) exists.  the redsix p5 grammar is written in r5r.
01:15 putter err, that's "a r5r implementation exists for p5".
01:17 putter redsix was passing not quite 20% of tests, but the grammar was ripped/derived/kludged from the pugs one, so it should be not horribly incomplete.
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01:18 putter though it has flaws, such as not integrating ast generation with parsing, so arity-based parse decisions don't work.
01:20 putter so anyway, one random thought is one might translate the redsix grammar and opp from ruby to p5, combine it with Regexp::Engine::Reentrant (or some such), and give jsper an alternate front end.  one which, unlike pugs/pil1, could provide object info.
01:20 putter s/object info/class declarations./
01:21 putter pil2js already heavily uses p6 and oo.  it just can't get oo info through the pugs/pil1 parser bottleneck.  this way it could.
01:22 putter and p5 could be rewritten as p6, providing a bootstrap.  much of what is currently js code could also be rewritten as p6.
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02:32 svnbot6 r15140 | putter++ | project_planning/TALK - added "redsix on PIL2JS".  Feedback encouraged.
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02:34 Ziggy6 ?eval use v5; print "hello"
02:34 evalbot_r15139 1.0
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02:40 putter Does anyone know approximately when pil2js stopped working?  I'd like to svn back to then and run a pil2js smoke.  tnx.
02:41 putter Else I'll just start walking back through the releases.
02:42 wolverian binary search is better than linear :)
02:43 putter unless one expects a small k :)
02:47 Ziggy6 hmm, strange, when i try the same thing in my pugs build, i get "Undefined subroutine &main:: called."
02:47 putter no, you're right.  also essential is the implicit context that for this I don't really care just when it broke.  since pil2js is rather stable (aka wedged waiting for pugs oo ast), any version pre breakage would be fine.  releases tend to be less broken than random, so any release from last year should serve.
02:49 putter Ziggy6: me too.  let's see...
02:50 allbery_b same here.  r15101 fwiw
02:50 putter only two t/perl5/ smoke failures - modify_*
02:51 putter odd
02:52 Ziggy6 perl5 embedding is supposed to be fully functional?
02:52 putter for some value of "fully"
02:53 putter bbiab
02:58 allbery_b interesting.  it's the use that triggers the error
02:58 luqui ?eval use v5;  my %h = (a => 1);  $h{a}
02:58 evalbot_r15139 is now known as evalbot_r15140
02:58 evalbot_r15140 1
02:58 luqui neat
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03:00 * allbery_b wonders what's up that it works in evalbot
03:02 allbery_b huh.  the tests don't test for this case
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03:14 allbery_b pugs -e 'use v5;' fails, pugs -e '{use v5;}' fails, pugs -e 'sub foo ($x) {use v5;} foo(0)' succeeds
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03:17 allbery_b pugs -e 'eval "use v5;"' succeeds, likely explaining evalbot (and also the test suite)
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03:29 Ziggy6 should I add a test?
03:30 allbery_b probably a good idea
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03:33 putter about to commit one...
03:35 putter actually, you know...
03:38 putter 'use v5' simply isn't implemented.  all the eval is doing is hiding that from us.  and the bug is that pugs -e 'sub foo ($x) {use v5;} foo(0)' compiles.  no?
03:39 putter ./perl5/modify_* is what tests 'use v5', and that's failing.
03:40 putter so no new test needed.
03:44 allbery_b hm, yep, use v5 doesn't actually work
03:46 Ziggy6 well, then mp6 won't run on pugs
03:50 putter mp6?  isn't the idea to try kp6?  ie, use pugs instead of, or in addition to, mp6, in supporting kp6 development.
03:50 svnbot6 r15141 | putter++ | TALK - putter argues with himself about "redsix on PIL2JS".  Other participants welcome.
03:51 Ziggy6 they have almost the same runtime
03:52 putter ah.  try replacing "use v5; ..." with "eval('...,:lang<perl5>)"?
03:53 allbery_b actually, I did.
03:54 allbery_b ./pugs -e 'eval "my \@a = (1, 2); print \$a[0]", :lang<perl5>' # empty string output
03:54 allbery_b I might be doing somethng else silly though
03:55 putter allbery_b: sorry, "try replacing" was regards kp6 :)
03:55 allbery_b fails with <> quotes too
03:55 allbery_b ah
03:55 allbery_b but I think this demonstrates that perl5 mode doesn't quite DTRT
04:03 putter looks like the last line of output disappears if it doesn't end in a newline.
04:03 putter ?eval eval(q/print "a\nb\n";/,:lang<perl5>)
04:03 evalbot_r15140 is now known as evalbot_r15141
04:03 evalbot_r15141 1.0
04:04 allbery_b ah, yes, there it is
04:05 allbery_b oh, and use v5; works in eval with that
04:06 allbery_b so use v5 works, but something's wrong at the very beginning of a file (or -e).  but beginning of an eval works.
04:06 putter really...?
04:06 Ziggy6 ?eval 1; use v5; print "test";
04:06 evalbot_r15141 OUTPUT[test] Bool::True
04:06 Ziggy6 nice
04:07 Ziggy6 hmm
04:07 Ziggy6 ?eval 1; use v5; my %h = (a => 'b')  print ${a};
04:07 evalbot_r15141 Error: ␤Unexpected "print"␤expecting operator or ","
04:07 Ziggy6 ?eval 1; use v5; my %h = (a => 'b');  print $h{a};
04:07 allbery_b mress:10028 Z$ ./pugs -e 'eval <use 5; my @a = (1, 2); print $a[1], "\n">;'    
04:07 allbery_b 2
04:07 evalbot_r15141 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&a"
04:08 allbery_b (I presume that v6 does the v6 thing with sigils)
04:08 Ziggy6 ?eval 1; use v5; my %h = (a => 'b');  print $h{'a'};
04:08 evalbot_r15141 OUTPUT[] Bool::True
04:08 * putter thinks 'use v5' is a noop for p6 (unintentional), and a noop for p5 (intentional).
04:09 allbery_b if I remove the "use 5" I get an empty string as output (v6 mode variable parsing)
04:10 allbery_b it may ntot be fully implemented, maybe, but it's doing *something*
04:10 Ziggy6 ?eval use v5; my %h = (a => 'b');  print $h{'a'};
04:11 evalbot_r15141 1.0
04:11 Ziggy6 odd
04:12 putter (evalbot may have p5 embedding disabled for security...)
04:15 putter end of day for me
04:15 putter anyone: any feedback on redsix on pil2js proposal welcome.
04:15 putter &
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07:06 svnbot6 r15142 | szabgab++ | optionally generate index.html by smartlinks.pl
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14:18 ingy gour: it's been dead in here for some hours
14:18 gour ingy: well, i'll ask anyway ;)
14:18 ingy but it usually wakes up in bursts...
14:18 ingy yeah
14:19 gour audreyt: are haskell bindings for yaml available somewhere?
14:20 [particle] wikipedia says yes
14:20 [particle] look for HsSyck iirc
14:23 gaal gour: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/third-party/HsSyck/
14:23 lambdabot Title: Revision 15142: /third-party/HsSyck
14:23 gour thanks, i just got it
14:24 gour long live yaml ;)
14:24 [particle] death to yaml! long live syck!
14:26 gaal gour: you may also find this useful: http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/DrIFT/YAML.hs
14:27 gaal and an example usage -- binding Perl 6 to HsSyck -- at http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/Pugs/Prim/Yaml.hs
14:27 * gour is a bit confused with syck vs. yaml :-(
14:28 [particle] syck is an easier to parse subset of yaml
14:29 gour where is some syck spec available?
14:33 [particle] look at yaml.org
14:36 gour [particle]: i saw that and dl-ed yaml spec, but what is missing in syck?
14:37 [particle] actually, maybe it's not a subset anymore, based on the stuff i'm reading now
14:37 [particle] it is much faster
14:38 [particle] oh, here: http://whytheluckystiff.net/syck/
14:38 lambdabot Title: ( Syck ): YAML for Ruby, Python, PHP and OCaml
14:38 [particle] look at the Progress Meter section
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14:39 gour [particle]: thanks a lot. this one is very helpful
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14:57 gaal hmm? syck's a library that parses and emits yaml.
14:57 gaal it's written in c and has bindings for lots of moose
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14:58 gaal you may have been thinking of JSON, [particle]
14:58 [particle] no, syck doesn't support all yaml
14:59 [particle] see the link i just posted -- however it's much more complete than the last time i looked
14:59 gaal yeah, but near enough
14:59 [particle] indeed
14:59 gaal it's not subset in the sense that it's a well defined intentional part of yaml
14:59 [particle] death to yaml! long live syck!
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18:02 * xinming_ misses audreyt. >_< Can anyone tell me if audreyt is busy with work? <-- Sorry If I resend the message. :-)
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18:56 nferraz hello!
18:56 nferraz anybody here working with perl6 in perl5?
18:56 ofer0 hey
19:00 kolibrie nferraz: I'm doing a bunch of grammar stuff under v6.pm
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19:03 nferraz cool
19:04 nferraz I was trying a simple map...
19:04 nferraz since it didn't work as I expected, I built a small test case...
19:09 pasteling "nferraz" at 194.65.5.240 pasted "map.t (test case)" (22 lines, 325B) at http://sial.org/pbot/22634
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20:38 audreyt TimToady: S04:93 has this form -- is it archaic?
20:38 audreyt    constant Num PI { 3 }
20:39 audreyt I thought we removed block-init from "has"
20:39 audreyt seems strange to only allow it for constant decl
20:44 TimToady seems somewhat archaic
20:44 TimToady but the block-init of has was '= { 3 }'
20:45 TimToady I think the idea was more that you could put either a block or an = on any declaration.
20:45 audreyt my $x { 123 };
20:45 TimToady but in the case of a sub, it doesn't autocall.
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20:45 TimToady but I think that was before we had state = FIRST semantics
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20:46 audreyt right. pseudoassign seems to obsolete this form
20:46 TimToady and it conflicts with hash decl now.
20:46 audreyt yup.
20:46 TimToady so it's dead
20:47 TimToady any feelings on recent design changes?
20:48 audreyt autotokening etc makes sense.
20:48 audreyt a two-level list context seems a little bit bizzare.
20:49 audreyt what happens when you have multislices composed from multislices
20:49 audreyt and you use them in smooth (linear list) context?
20:49 audreyt does it flatten all the way recursively?
20:49 TimToady As far as they're captures, I think.
20:50 TimToady which is one level for ordinary list return, two for mappish things
20:50 audreyt no, what I mean is (probably not Capture related)
20:51 audreyt @@multislice := map { $_, map { $_ * $^moose}, 1..5  }, 1..3
20:51 audreyt does it flatten to 1,2,3,4,5,2,4,6,8,10, ... ?
20:51 TimToady I believe the inner map is flatted by that list context by default
20:52 TimToady unless you chunky it inside
20:52 audreyt ok, so mlist context doesn't propagate
20:52 * gaal mooses
20:53 * stevan moves quickly away from gaal and covers his nose
20:53 audreyt    @@multislice := map { $_, $_ * 10 }, 1..3
20:53 audreyt    @@multislice.perl   # ( (1, 10) ; (2, 20) ; (3, 30) )
20:53 * [particle] thinks stevan should cover his own nose
20:54 audreyt correct?
20:54 audreyt and there's currently no easy way to make three-dimensional literal?
20:55 TimToady sec...
20:56 TimToady sorry, sitting in a tire store getting a tire repaired...
20:57 TimToady using GoogleWiFi that Mountain View provides, yay
20:57 audreyt cool
20:57 TimToady um, isn't (1,2;3,4;5,6) 3-D?
20:57 TimToady @foo[1,2; 3,4; 5,6]
20:58 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
20:58 audreyt well, in arglists it's 2d...
20:58 audreyt it's 3d when dereferencing
20:58 audreyt yay inconsistency
20:59 TimToady well, my tire's done, so I need to wander on down the road...
20:59 audreyt k
20:59 TimToady thanks
20:59 TimToady pocketa, pocketa, pocketa &
20:59 audreyt maybe we call it a Matrix containing 3 derefs.
20:59 audreyt 3d-slices
21:00 audreyt which is really just a matrix with 3 rows
21:00 * audreyt ponders "matrix context"
21:02 audreyt in which case
21:02 audreyt sub f (*@_) { ... flattens into Seq ... }
21:02 audreyt sub f (*@@_) { ... nonflattens into Matrix ... }
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22:44 * bonesss is away: banho
23:05 audreyt miyagawa: JSON::syck now raises proper exception when passed circular refs
23:05 Psyche^ joined perl6
23:05 miyagawa audreyt: great
23:05 audreyt also I finally effected the license change to MIT
23:06 audreyt which is iirc okay with you, I hope
23:06 miyagawa sure
23:07 audreyt also finally structures like
23:07 audreyt [ $unicode_string, $some_raw_octets ]
23:07 audreyt can be dumped fine in YAML::Syck
23:07 audreyt (the raw octets gets !binary typed and base64 encoded)
23:07 audreyt (with $YAML::Syck::ImplicitBinary)
23:08 audreyt but sadly JSON::Syck has no bytebuffer support
23:08 audreyt so we're still stuck with either/or there
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23:08 miyagawa ah
23:08 audreyt limitation of json spec
23:08 miyagawa hmm
23:08 audreyt no support for x'001234ff' literals
23:08 miyagawa 1) dump both as UTF-8
23:09 miyagawa 2) dump bytes as UTF-8 and unicode string as \uXXX?
23:09 audreyt uhm
23:09 audreyt problem is that json has no \xff form
23:10 miyagawa yeah
23:10 audreyt so you can't tell \uff from \xff
23:10 audreyt so it's mostly moot :/
23:10 miyagawa I remember that the spec suggests all bytes should be in UTF-8
23:10 audreyt that I think is what we currently do
23:11 audreyt bbiab
23:18 * bonesss is back (gone 00:33:43)
23:21 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
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