Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-01-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:00 svnbot6 r15153 | kudra++ | Placeholder
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07:03 svnbot6 r15154 | putter++ | misc/pX/Common/yet_another_rules_engine/ - created.  See README.  Help welcome.
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16:09 * DebolazX sees http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pugs&curid=1532361&diff=104103089&oldid=100787152
16:09 lambdabot http://tinyurl.com/2htmfr
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16:31 elmex rafl: are you there?
16:33 Limbic_Region ?seen rafl
16:33 lambdabot rafl is in #perl6 and #haskell. I don't know when rafl last spoke.
16:33 Limbic_Region @seen rafl
16:33 lambdabot rafl is in #perl6 and #haskell. I don't know when rafl last spoke.
16:33 elmex hm, jabber.org is unfortunately down :(
16:33 Limbic_Region .seen rafl
16:33 Limbic_Region ah
16:34 rafl elmex: I am.
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16:35 elmex rafl: yay, is jabber.org dead for you too? well.. whatever, i wanted to send the patch for Net::SSLeay with the test
16:36 elmex rafl: want it via smtp or http?
16:37 Limbic_Region <rafl> Will Perl 6 have something like perl5's as.pm?
16:37 Limbic_Region <rafl> Will Perl 6 have something like perl5's as.pm?
16:37 Limbic_Region <rafl> Will Perl 6 have something like perl5's as.pm?
16:37 Limbic_Region <rafl> Will Perl 6 have something like perl5's as.pm?
16:37 elmex wtf.?
16:37 Limbic_Region wholly fubar'd client
16:37 Limbic_Region wow, the last time rafl spoke in the channel (prior to today) was 2006-12-11 saying that
16:38 elmex thats not soo long ago
16:38 rafl elmex: Yes, it was.
16:39 rafl elmex: http
16:39 * Limbic_Region shuts up for fear of flooding or sounding incoherent or both
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16:39 rafl Limbic_Region: I didn't have much time and motivation for Perl 6 related things in the past months.
16:41 TimToady can't do anything about the time, but what motivates you?
16:41 elmex rafl: will you be at the GPWS ?
16:45 rafl TimToady: My motivation is mostly fun. I was somewhat depressed in the past months and lost track on the current development. After that I didn't want to catch up because lots of things happened and there were other fun projects for me to do.
16:45 rafl TimToady: I haven't lost the interest, though. But I fear there will be lots of boring stuff to do before I can actually get involved again.
16:45 rafl elmex: Yes.
16:46 elmex nice, i will be too
16:47 * Limbic_Region is mostly interested in pmichaud's work on perl6 -> parrot compiler.  It currently is only failing 4 of the 27 sanity tests
16:47 rafl elmex: Were will you sleep?
16:47 Limbic_Region once all sanity tests are passing, the entire perl 6 test suite (pugs) minus a handful of implementation specific tests will be opened up
16:49 elmex rafl: hm, in a hotel, i don't know which.
16:49 Limbic_Region then there will be at least 2 HLL (tcl being the other) driving parrot development
16:49 Limbic_Region then there will be at least 2 HLL (tcl being the other) driving parrot development
16:49 rafl Limbic_Region: That's interesting, indeed.
16:49 Limbic_Region then there will be at least 2 HLL (tcl being the other) driving parrot development
16:49 Limbic_Region grrrr
16:50 elmex rafl: well, btw. you've got a privmsg :)
16:50 rafl I have writing some parrot glue around libxmmsclient (the xmms2 client library) on my TODO. That'll probably be fun as well :-)
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16:51 elmex hehe
16:51 * Limbic_Region is also very much interested in the return of audreyt++
16:51 [particle] Limbic_Region: it will also open the doors to hll interoperability
16:51 [particle] we can implement C<use tcl:what::ever>
16:52 Limbic_Region [particle] - yeah, also good stuff but there is nothing like failing tests to motivate development
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16:57 Limbic_Region oh, and all of the work from fglock++ is interesting too
16:59 Limbic_Region TimToady - what would be S14 is now covered under S10-S13 ?
17:00 TimToady what's chapter 14 about?
17:00 Limbic_Region sorry - tied variables
17:01 TimToady yes, those are now implementation types
17:01 TimToady my %hash is MyStrangeHash;
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17:02 TimToady and variable are assumed to be untieable unless declared tieable in some way
17:02 TimToady s//s/
17:03 TimToady well, s:13th/<null>/s/ I mean
17:03 Limbic_Region also, where does S26 (POD) live - I thought Damian released it already?
17:03 Limbic_Region also, where does S26 (POD) live - I thought Damian released it already?
17:04 TimToady a recent copy of almost any spec can be found in docs/Perl6/Spec
17:04 TimToady not sure if there's a more official place for it yet
17:05 Limbic_Region http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
17:05 lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
17:06 Limbic_Region I thought that officially released synopses lived there and works in progress were in the pugs repo
17:07 TimToady Well, Functions is "official" but still lives in pugs
17:07 TimToady dev.perl.org specs are slightly more frozen, or at least have a smaller set of people that can dicker with 'em
17:08 TimToady but there's no concept of "officially released" as in completely frozen
17:08 TimToady some of them are in a hard slush though.
17:09 Limbic_Region ok, so on dev.perl.org is S1 through S6, S9 through S13 where Pugs repo has S16, S17, S22, S26, and S29
17:09 Limbic_Region S7 (formats) and S8 (references) are obsolete
17:11 TimToady at some point I'll probably throw an Offical Grammar out there into some S or other.  Last night I finished the "top" of the sandwich.
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17:12 Cafe_ hi all
17:12 TimToady howdy
17:12 TimToady what are your interests?
17:13 Cafe_ will perl6 have a compiler?
17:13 Limbic_Region will there be a need for S15 (unicode), S18 (compiling), S19 (command line interface), S20 (debugger), S21 (internals and externals), S23 (security), S24 (common practices), S25 (portable perl), S27(perl culture), S28(special names), S30 (standard perl library), S31 (pragmatic modules), S32 (standard modules), S33 (diagnostic messages)?
17:13 TimToady Cafe_: it will have lots of compilers
17:14 [particle] (synopses) it may be nice to have a note saying which synopses are intentionally left blank, and which have not yet been written
17:14 Cafe_ i mean, today with perl5 we cant generate working executables like C programming, right?
17:14 [particle] evolving vs deprecated
17:14 xinming Cafe_: yes.
17:15 Cafe_ will it be like C programming?
17:15 xinming Cafe_: No. Perl 6 will have a compiler.
17:15 Cafe_ (sorry the bad english, i'm not native english speaker)
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17:15 xinming Cafe_: We just compile perl 6 to parrot or to javascript. :-)
17:15 xinming Cafe_: Me neither.
17:16 [particle] Cafe_: at least one implementation of perl 6 will allow you to compile to bytecode, and use a virtual machine (parrot) similar to how java works
17:16 Limbic_Region [particle] - WRT the Synopses intentionally left blank - exactly what I was getting at
17:16 xinming Cafe_: And even... Better than java. :-P
17:17 TimToady I expect fglock will eventually make it compile to C code.
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17:17 * [particle] expects that too
17:18 xinming TimToady: Do you mean It compile to pasm, and then, compile pasm to C? Or, Just compile perl 6 to C?
17:18 TimToady Limbic_Region: I will >>todo that
17:18 xinming Compile perl 6 to c directly.
17:18 Cafe_ ok, but i will need to install the VM anyway, right?
17:19 Limbic_Region [particle] - cause from a pure numbers perspective, it looks like 16/33 aren't written yet
17:19 [particle] Cafe_: yes, with parrot, unless an exe is created which contains the vm and the bytecode
17:19 TimToady I suspect fglock would do direct to C, but of course there would have to be library support that might well be from parrot (or...)
17:19 xinming Cafe_: Don't worry about vm. It's even possible to compile perl 6 to perl 5.
17:20 Cafe_ my willing is to make an reliable, independent exe
17:20 [particle] s/willing/desire/
17:20 Gothmog_ If it will be possible to compile it to C, you might need the VM to compile it, but you won't need it to execute it.
17:20 Cafe_ thanks!! ;)
17:21 Cafe_ you mean convert the perl code to C code, and then use gcc to compile the C code?
17:21 Limbic_Region heh, wouldn't it be something if perl 5 compiled to perl 6 which is compiled to perl 5 outperforms the original?
17:21 Limbic_Region TimToady - not looking to make work for you but it is something I have been wondering about
17:22 [particle] ...talk about a pony!
17:23 xinming Cafe_: possibly... If someone did something amazing. which compile perl 6 to C directly. Then, I'll think If we can write a OS using dynamic language. :-P
17:23 [particle] Cafe_: there is a perl 5 module called PAR which let's you compile once, distribute, and run on machines without perl installed
17:23 [particle] Cafe_: i expect perl 6 will have *at least* that functionality, too, and maybe more
17:24 Cafe_ i have tried PAR and others alike
17:24 TimToady Limbic_Region: http://feather.perl6.nl/syn/ is a more up-to-date snapshot of the state of the synopses.
17:24 lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
17:24 Cafe_ but only worked with simple codes
17:26 Limbic_Region TimToady - except that the pugs repo has S17 and S22 which isn't reflected there
17:36 TimToady Limbic_Region: yes, but that html page can be changed by anyone with pugs commit; see note at the bottom of the page.  Arguably that's why it's more up-to-date than the other page.
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17:48 Cafe_ when will we be using perl6???
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17:53 TimToady Cafe_: using it for what?  I've already used it at work...
17:54 TimToady pugs already implements a large portion of the language
17:54 TimToady and it's quite usable, though not terribly fast
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18:15 TimToady Cafe_: would you like to participate in development?
18:17 TimToady if so, ask here and someone will send you a pugs commit bit
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18:20 TimToady biab &
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18:23 Cafe_ man, i dont think i can contribuite with my perl skills
18:24 Cafe_ but i'll be happy to help on other ways
18:24 lumi You can contribute just by writing a test, or reading the documentation and finding places where it's fuzzy
18:24 lumi Want a commit bit?
18:25 PerlJam Cafe_: There are lots of opportunities to contribute even if you don't know perl (5 or 6), haskell, etc.
18:27 Cafe_ we will discuss it in a minute
18:27 Cafe_ i'm just finishing some lines of code
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18:36 * bonesss is away: out
18:44 gaal nothingmuch++ # smoke test modules fixed
18:44 gaal everyone who's been getting errors, please reinstall Task::Smoke
18:44 nothingmuch err, wait for CPAN
18:45 gaal {sleep 7200 ; !! }
18:49 nothingmuch goddamn hippies
18:49 nothingmuch i want my BSG! why can't people be better seeders? *sniff*
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18:50 gaal they want to protect you from the rapidly declining to pathetic levels series.
18:53 nothingmuch it's bad?
18:53 nothingmuch now you took the fun out of it
18:53 lumi It starts out good
18:54 gaal then gets bad
18:54 gaal a devil of a series
18:55 lumi True
18:56 lumi Meanwhile, would changing Pugs/Prim.hs, line 341 from "retEmpty" to something like "return v" make it comply with the new en passant spec?
18:57 gaal without looking, looks promising. :-)
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19:04 lumi And, does an en passant take test belong in t/statements/gather.t? (probably not)
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19:22 gaal it belongs somewhere...
19:23 gaal heh i wonder whether should update my ghetto Perl6::Gather
19:26 svnbot6 r15155 | lwall++ | Add more info on missing chapters.
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19:31 gaal TimToady: the Syn example has "take $_", but doesn't "take" default to taking the topic?
19:33 gaal ugh. i don't know how to express the p5 version of take's prototype.
19:34 gaal "take 42, 45": what's taken?
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19:38 Juerd gaal: IIRC, there is no $_ defaulting anymore, in arguments.
19:38 Juerd gaal: So .take
19:38 Juerd I expect take 42, 45 to take both.
19:38 Juerd i.e. take LIST
19:39 gaal well, isn't that now dependent on whether the take is en passant?
19:40 gaal (see recent Syn commit)
19:40 Juerd What is en passant?
19:40 * bonesss is back (gone 01:03:36)
19:40 allbery_b "in passing", in this case meaning it returns what it's passed
19:40 Juerd Don't know. No tuits for following commits anymore
19:40 allbery_b and "takes" as a side effect to that
19:41 gaal what I don't understand is the comment about the take happening in void context, unless it's an en passant assignment
19:41 gaal what would it mean for the take to be in void context?
19:41 gaal i mean, does this affect the taken values in any way?
19:42 allbery_b void context means any value returned will be discarded
19:42 allbery_b this is significant mainly because the trivial gather ... {take ...} would otherwise return the last thing taken
19:42 allbery_b as the result of the gather
19:42 allbery_b which is probably not intended
19:43 allbery_b hm, phrased poorly, since obviously that cannot happen)
19:43 gaal how so? gather returns the gathered list.
19:43 gaal gather ..... { $x = { 42; take 7; } }
19:43 gaal what's $x?
19:44 gaal (heh, should have said "take 5")
19:44 allbery_b suppose you could say that it's being pedantic about what is going on exactly:  a void context is one in which any expression will be ignored aside from side effects, the inside of a gather is a void context (so you know any finall value will be ignored, only the effect of a take is important)
19:44 allbery_b and in that case, the result is the result of take because it's the last thing in the block, no?
19:44 allbery_b i.e. $x == 7
19:45 gaal okay, so what's the meaning of the take happening in void context?
19:45 allbery_b in gather ... { <- right after that open brace is void context
19:45 allbery_b meaning no value is expected, also meaning take's context does not affect scalar vs. list (I think)
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19:45 gaal my Q is not about the gather at all, it's in about the take
19:45 allbery_b but mostly I think it's being pedantic
19:46 allbery_b gaal:  take is only meaningful within a gather, no?
19:46 gaal sure, sure
19:46 allbery_b they go together, the affect each other in particular ways, "I don't care abouut the gather:" == "tell me something meaningless"
19:46 gaal but why is the context of take important? surely the context in which take's arguments are reduced is not void!
19:47 allbery_b fine.  meaningless answer:  "it doesn;t matter"
19:47 gaal thank you.
19:47 allbery_b it's also wrong, I suspect, bhut at the level you're insisting on, there is no right answer
19:48 gaal in that case, the right answer is not to mention the context of take in the spec.
19:48 allbery_b my strong suspicion is that the void context means take does not try to enforce any kind of scalar/list "shape" on what you pass it or what passes through it
19:48 gaal now, is "take;" an error? simply a dispatch failure?
19:49 gaal so, can "@x = take EXPR;" gather something different from "$x = take EXPR"?
19:49 allbery_b that is indeed the question
19:49 gaal because in that case, I don't understand how to express take's Signature in Perl
19:50 allbery_b and it's why context is important.  if gather did not explicitly supply null context then the assumed context would be thatr in which the gather exists
19:50 gaal since gather gather lists, I was under the impression its, uh, takands should be evaluated in list context always.
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19:50 lumi In Pugs there's currently an op0 "take", I saw
19:51 gaal s:2nd/gather/gathers/
19:51 allbery_b you might want to bounce that one off @Larry
19:51 gaal yup, hoping they'll remoose here
19:53 lumi @a =  gather { $x = take f() } # What context does f return in?
19:53 lambdabot Maybe you meant: activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask . v
19:53 lumi Or is that what you were just discussing?
19:53 lumi Thanks \b
19:53 allbery_b lumi: that's the question
19:53 allbery_b absent the $x it has no imposed context.  this makes me think that $x is intended to provide context
19:53 allbery_b not sure if that was actually the intent\
19:54 lumi Ah
19:54 gaal which is crazy to express
19:54 gaal and, I think, impossible to implement in p5
19:54 avarab is now known as avar
19:54 lumi So: @a = gather { $: take f() } # same as take $: f()
19:54 lumi To use the syntax of the week
19:55 allbery_b hm?  p5 can express it, I think
19:55 gaal wouldn't it be nice if p5 prototpyes had some autothunking feature, like sub take (&) { if wantarray...}
19:55 allbery_b if you mean prototypes, that should be the behavior of @
19:55 allbery_b whereas \@ forces list and provides a listref
19:56 allbery_b (I think.  if not, well, this is why p5 protos suck and should be avoided :)
19:56 gaal in this case they can't be, if I want to allow these to look like builtins and not require "sub" and parens.
19:56 lumi autothunking, as in lazifying?
19:56 gaal yeah
19:57 gaal not to be evaluated at call time, but by take according to its wantarray
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19:58 gaal so, $x = take 1,2 would gather [1,2], wheras @x = or no en passant would do the usual flattening ...1, 2...?
19:59 gaal ok p6-lling.
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21:54 svnbot6 r15156 | lwall++ | formatting tweaks to syn index.
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22:05 wolverian http://anyterm.org/ -- webirc replacement, perhaps
22:05 lambdabot Title: Anyterm - Introduction
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