Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-01-31

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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01:08 putter Hmm.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugs  says "Due to licensing and concerns about the lack of copyright assignments from contributors, it is unlikely that The Perl Foundation will bless Pugs as the official implementation of Perl 6."
01:09 putter It was added in early Nov by anon.
01:12 putter Does this strike anyone else as bogus?  Ie, if they meant the haskell implementation, it seems to underestimate how much of the codebase will be churned before xmas, and overestimate the number of people who have made substantial contributions.  Either of which would mitigate the concern expressed.
01:45 TimToady that's funny, considering S01 specifies that we not consider any implementation "the official Perl 6 implementation".  An implementation can be "an official implementation" if it passes the test suite.
01:47 dduncan TimToady, regarding r13553, I suggest you reformat that cascaded conditional example so that the !! is on the leading end of lines rather than the trailing end
01:47 dduncan and they line up vertically with the assignment
01:49 dduncan I refer to the example under: +A tabular form is also popular for cascaded conditionals:
01:49 TimToady gonna sic Perl::Critic on me?  :)
01:49 dduncan I noticed it myself, without the help of a program
01:49 dduncan and I agree with the rationale of the change
01:49 TimToady I don't always follow PBC myself... :)
01:50 dduncan but was your choice here arbitrary, or did you have the trailing !! on purpose?
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01:50 dduncan but was your choice here arbitrary, or did you have the trailing !! on purpose?
01:51 TimToady I just threw the pieces of gold into the fire, and lo! out came this Golden Calf...
01:52 putter re "official"/"that's funny": correcting...
01:53 TimToady I probably shouldn't be putting stylistic notes into the S's in any event.
01:54 dduncan but the examples could still be consistent with PBP if you don't oppose them
01:54 dduncan leading by example isn't leading by doctrine
01:56 SamB TimToady: that is the lamest excuse evar!
01:57 SamB it was lame the first time, and it is really really lame this time!
01:59 putter Hmm,  S01 was probably not written in the month of "Nob".  No, I cant say that.  It does seem likely to be a typo however.
02:01 TimToady SamB: so break the stone tablets again. :)
02:02 SamB do I look like my face glows?
02:02 SamB no!
02:02 * SamB hasn't got any stone tablets
02:02 SamB anyway, if I had one, I'd want to run programs on it
02:03 * allbery_b thinks decent laptops are heavy enough as is, thanks :)
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02:20 putter "flintstones, meet the..."
02:37 putter in p6 rules, can <{ }> interpolated regexs be modifiers?  eg  /<{/:i/}> GoOd ThInG ThAt InTeRpOlAtEd/ ?
02:38 TimToady sure, but they're scoped to the subrule, which doesn't do you much good.
02:38 putter ah, ok
02:39 TimToady making pretty good progress on the Official Grammar, btw
02:39 putter :)
02:39 TimToady to keep "actions" from cluttering things, I'm writing the rules such that they can be preprocessed
02:40 putter good choice :)
02:40 TimToady so we have rules like:
02:40 TimToady    when    => rule { <block> {*} },                    #ACT sc when
02:41 TimToady the {*} is a placeholder where you might want an action
02:41 TimToady and #ACT sc when is the identifier of that action
02:41 TimToady in this case "statement_control when"
02:42 putter ah.  I can live with that.  hopefully nothing with have two actions?
02:42 TimToady the hope is that the grammar can be used as-is for mere syntax validation, but preprocessed into various derivative grammars for other purposes
02:42 putter yes
02:43 TimToady nothing says the preprocess couldn't s/<'{*}'>/{...} {...}/
02:43 TimToady looked at various ways of sneaking the identifier into the rule, but it really cluttered things up.
02:44 putter <action 42> ?
02:44 TimToady prefer symbolic
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02:45 putter <action-42> ....  rule action-42 { <null> }  ?
02:45 TimToady also it doesn't look like a longest-token stopper
02:45 TimToady and {*} looks like a closure because it is one
02:45 TimToady just doesn't do much.
02:46 TimToady so you really only have to translate the ones that you want to add an action to.
02:48 putter hmm, do we have a way to "inline" a subrule?  eg,   gram Acts does Base { rule when { <inline Base::when> {random cruft} }
02:49 TimToady well, there's always eval...
02:49 putter I suppose inline'ing is merely bonus.  could just   rule when { <Base::when> {somewhat different code} }
02:49 pasteling "TimToady" at 71.139.17.198 pasted "Top of the grammar to ya!" (181 lines, 6.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/22748
02:50 putter oooo, looking...
02:50 TimToady there's probably some form of textual macroing, but it could *really* screw up the visual semantics of which field is $3
02:51 TimToady now all I need is define all my terms.
02:53 putter chuckle
02:53 TimToady oh, the ' ' key in a magic hash tells it what to check for between the key and the value.
02:54 putter hmm, one thing I've never understood about token... actually a couple of things....
02:54 TimToady so it's easy to force word boundaries there, for instance
02:54 putter is the non-backtracking here needed for a correct parse, or merely efficiency?
02:56 TimToady not sure.  there may be other things that token implies that regex wouldn't.
02:56 TimToady for a while was considering that token/rule implied longest token on | while regex didn't, but decided consistency was better
02:57 putter so is there any reason all those tokens could be rules instead?
02:57 TimToady but mostly it's "token" to keep reminding you that it doesn't do whitespace like "rule".
02:58 putter ah
02:58 TimToady tokens don't do :sigspace
02:59 TimToady though "token { \{ <expression> \} }" automatically gets whitespace inside because <expression> is a rule
02:59 TimToady presumably with auto-ws fore and aft
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02:59 putter so when users locally modify the p6 grammar, they have a fighting chance against backtracking rules, but if they run afoul of a token, they lose?
03:00 TimToady we try to push as many tokens into hashes as possible to keep them officially independent.
03:00 TimToady and deletable as well as addable
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03:02 TimToady dinner, so entering attention deficit mode. &
03:02 putter in redsix each grammar just collected all the locally visible rules named  token_foo and put them in the token hash.  what's the real way one does  gram B does A { ...let me fiddle with the token set... }
03:03 putter ah, bye.  cheers.
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04:54 svnbot6 r15162 | putter++ | misc/pX/Common/yet_another_rules_engine - progress.  re_tests.t is 60% okay.  See README.
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06:20 TimToady @tell putter backtracking vs not doesn't have anything much to do with mutability, nor does token vs rule.  rules don't backtrack by default either.
06:20 lambdabot Consider it noted.
06:21 TimToady @tell putter we're not changing the grammar out from under ourselves in any case.  we're only changing the grammar to parse the rest of the block.
06:21 lambdabot Consider it noted.
06:22 TimToady @tell putter it's sort of a continuation idea.  But yes, how one actually does the overrides is the real question.  The problem with the hash approach is it tempts us to reinvent inheritance badly.
06:22 lambdabot Consider it noted.
06:25 TimToady @tell putter and the old <%foo|%bar> notation is really a form of MI.  even the new /%foo|%bar/ is still kinda MIish.  anyway, will think on this derivation mechanism s'more.
06:25 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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07:05 tene ?eval say "foo"
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07:06 evalbot_r15162 OUTPUT[foo␤] Bool::True
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15:13 |Lupin| 4/part
15:13 |Lupin| oops, sorry
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17:44 beppu @babel en es perl is funny
17:44 lambdabot  el Perl es divertido
17:45 allbery_b just off the top of my head, that looks slightly odd :)
17:47 beppu @babel en es pythonistas are not to be underestimated.  they are devious and sly.
17:47 lambdabot  los pythonistas no deben ser subestimados. son desviados y sly.
17:49 TimToady @babel jp en すごい
17:49 lambdabot Plugin `babel' failed with: IRCRaised Error: Language jp not supported
17:50 TimToady ち!
17:51 xinming 郁闷。。。
17:51 xinming 睡觉了, 大家晚安。 :-D
17:54 TimToady お休みなさい。
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17:58 Juerd I see funny characters.
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18:06 Teratogen will Perl 6 have winged comments?
18:06 [particle] yes
18:07 [particle] code; # comment
18:07 TimToady never heard them called that...
18:07 [particle] it's a c thing... /* comment */
18:07 Teratogen winged comments are like /* comment */
18:07 TimToady end-of-line comments is what I call them
18:07 Teratogen err, what [particle] said
18:08 TimToady do you mean #{...} comments then?
18:08 Teratogen probably
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18:08 Teratogen code /* comment */ code
18:08 TimToady code #[[[ comment ]]] code
18:08 TimToady where any set of brackets works
18:08 Teratogen ah
18:08 Teratogen nice
18:09 TimToady is disallowed if # is in column 1 though.
18:09 TimToady that's always line-end comment even if followed by bracket
18:10 TimToady because people do 'a,'zs/^/#/ and expect it to work
18:10 TimToady also, we encourage people to use pod for block comments
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18:20 Juerd #(((((((((( hug comment ))))))))))
18:21 Juerd Hm, no
18:21 Juerd #(((((((((( hug comment ))))))))))
18:21 Juerd :)
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20:07 masak perl6 cleans up the following things: regexes, OO and functional declarations
20:08 masak with "cleans up", I mean something like "wholly replaces old with new"
20:09 masak those three areas alone are reason enough to upgrade
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20:09 masak but then perl6 makes a whole lot of other improvements too
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20:12 PerlJam masak: you make a good argument for upgrading but it has one important flaw ... no perl6 compiler.  :)
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20:40 TreyHarr1s i thought there was a perl 5 backport of given/when, but I can't find it on cpan.  am i hallucinating?  if not, what's the model name?
20:41 TreyHarr1s s/model/module/
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20:41 wolverian TreyHarr1s, 5.10 will have it; right now you can use Switch.pm
20:42 Daveman joined perl6
20:42 wolverian (note that Switch is a source filter)
20:42 TreyHarr1s wolverian: ahh, i missed the 'Perl6' import when i looked at Switch.pm a moment ago.  
20:42 wolverian :)
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21:28 masak PerlJam: true. But pugs is enough of a taste of one for me to feel excited. I want to show its goodness to people
21:29 masak realistically, how far away is a real p6 compiler written in p6?
21:29 TimToady I'm working on the official grammar right now.
21:29 masak sounds good
21:30 TimToady but a compiler is a lot more than just a grammar...
21:30 SamB yes, but a grammar is a good starting point for a compiler
21:31 TimToady there are lots of good starting points, and we've started at most of 'em already.  :)
21:31 SamB heh
21:31 SamB has everyone had a chance to start at each of them yet?
21:32 TimToady a chance? sure.
21:32 * SamB is referring to the saying "everything has been said, but not everyone has had a chance to say it yet"
21:33 TimToady you can say that again
21:33 TimToady that goes without saying
21:33 SamB why would I want to say it again? not everyone has had a chance to say it yet!
21:33 TimToady "Say it again, Sam!"
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22:46 fridim hi.
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