Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-02-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:07 svnbot6 r15172 | lwall++ | First snapshot of proposed standard Perl 6 grammar in standard Perl 6.
00:08 TimToady (it is by no means complete)
00:09 TimToady mostly a translation of pmichaud++'s current grammar into something more like its final form.
00:11 TimToady still missing a lot of terms, and a lot of {*} commentary
00:12 TimToady just checked it in so you could see the direction I'm headed with it...
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00:46 svnbot6 r15173 | lwall++ | add label token
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01:59 svnbot6 r15174 | lwall++ | more grammar cleanup
02:08 TimToady n
02:09 TimToady y, even
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03:45 meppl i always read "TimToday"
04:10 SamB dyslexic a bit?
04:16 allbery_b no, just the usual tendency to map something to what's familiar
04:16 allbery_b I went through that too, I use "today" rather more often than "toady"
04:16 allbery_b so the latter always looks like a typo
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04:23 tene It took me a while to figure out what meppl had typed differently.
04:24 tene I kept reading it as "Toady"
05:01 dduncan I imagine that some people read it as TIMTOWTDI
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05:31 allbery_b I gather that's how it's *supposed* to be read
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07:20 svnbot6 r15175 | lwall++ | much grammar tweaking
07:25 jrockway heh, good to see a lwall++ commit :)
07:26 TimToady yeah, he does so little work around here and gets so much credit for it...
07:27 TimToady good to see him pulling his weight a little more.  :)
07:27 jisom eh, someone has to tell all the programs how to behave
07:29 jrockway so is YAPC::Asia going to have a TimToady presence this year?
07:30 TimToady nope, have to be on the east coast that week.
07:30 TimToady alas
07:30 TimToady wouldn't mind going to YAPC::Asia every year...
07:31 jrockway for me it's a good excuse to get $WORK to pay for (part of) a trip to japan :)
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08:49 shay|p6 guys, is there a place where all the made test are publicly available?
08:49 shay|p6 (I'm doing some tests, and I won't like to re-invent the wheel ;)
08:50 tene There's pugs svn...
08:50 shay|p6 oh I see, that "t" folder?
08:51 tene Yep. :)
08:51 shay|p6 great, working on it, thanks
08:51 tene http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t/README
08:51 tene is a file you want to read.
08:51 shay|p6 Indeed, I'm on it now
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10:22 dmq yay, rsc said hed let us use his code if we want.
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19:04 mncharity is now known as putter
19:05 putter Do we have an operator precedence parser written in p5 yet?
19:09 putter Doesn't look like kp6 has one.  Drat.  (v6/v6-KindaPerl6/lib/KindaPerl6/Grammar.pm)
19:11 putter There is a misc/pX/fglock/Precedence.pm, but it looks like an unfinished draft.
19:16 putter tewk started a transliteration of PGE (written in parrot) to P5.  misc/pX/tewk/Rules-P5/
19:16 putter Just about a year ago. :/
19:17 audreyt putter: perl5/./Pugs-Compiler-Rule/lib/Pugs/Grammar/Precedence.pm
19:17 audreyt based on Parse::Yapp. pretty usable.
19:17 audreyt perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6//lib/Pugs/Grammar/Expression.pm uses it.
19:19 putter thanks!  looking...
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19:26 putter sigh.  choices, choices.
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19:45 rodi well, after a long absence, I was making some modifications to ext/Automata/Cellular/*, and have discovered I never renewed my commit bit after the repository switchover... anyone around who could help with that?
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19:49 Limbic_Region rodi - I think so
19:49 Limbic_Region rodi - I have only done it once on the new system
19:49 Limbic_Region rodi - give me a few
19:51 rodi Limbic_Region: thanks, I appreciate it.
19:51 Limbic_Region rodi - you are listed as "pending"
19:52 Limbic_Region do you want me to send a new one or tell you the address the last one went to?
19:53 rodi Limbic_Region: I'm sure it went to my yahoo address, but I'm afraid I probably deleted it :-\  mind sending another?
19:54 Limbic_Region oh, and btw rodi - it is a @yahoo.com  address which ate mine
19:54 Limbic_Region I ended up having audreyt resend to my gmail account
19:54 Limbic_Region sure
19:54 Limbic_Region will do
19:54 Limbic_Region if you don't get this one we can try another
19:54 rodi coolio, I'll check shortly.
19:55 Limbic_Region sent
19:55 Limbic_Region used same info as the existing one
20:00 putter Limbic_Region: perhaps document the procedure somewhere?  unless we three are unusual, I imagine it's going to come up again...
20:01 gaal evil: http://clemens.endorphin.org/liskell
20:01 lambdabot gaal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:01 Limbic_Region putter - what?
20:01 lambdabot Title: Liskell - clemens.endorphin.org
20:01 Limbic_Region I have no idea what you are talking about
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20:02 putter person had old repository account.  lost email.  wonders what to do now.
20:02 Limbic_Region putter - that's not the case here
20:02 rodi Limbic_Region: email came through, password updated.  Doesn't seem to have updated in the repository yet, but that my require some sync time.  Thanks.
20:02 Limbic_Region putter - person had old repository account and new repository account but lost email
20:03 * putter , puzzled, punts
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20:04 Limbic_Region in any case, I just did an "add" with the exact same details as were "pending"
20:08 PartclCoke So i'm looking into implementing tcl's [trace] on parrot. requires hooks for pre-HLL subs, post, and then pre and post on each *line* of the sub. I'm looking for the perl6 equivalents. S06 makes a blink-and-you'll-miss-it reference to PRE/POST/ENTER/LEAVE/KEEP/UNDO. Are these explained in any more detail anywhere?
20:09 BooK_ is now known as BooK
20:13 PartclCoke (and, is there any interest tcl's apparently slightly more fine grained settings)
20:15 PartclCoke ... finally, should I be asking this on the mailing list. =-)
20:16 PartclCoke (I see the test for this section in pugs is TODO...)
20:20 lumi Closure traits?
20:20 lumi S04 maybe?
20:21 PartclCoke ah. a cross reference from s06 would have been most helpful there, danke. =-)
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20:24 PartclCoke so it looks like tcl's [trace add execution (enter|leave) ...] are like perl6's ENTER and LEAVE; I have no desire to implement any of the other stuff that perl6 needs, and it looks like tcl has a few more related features that perl6 doesn't. Hurm.
20:24 PartclCoke though it looks like many of those traits can be implemented *in terms of* ENTER & LEAVE, so I don't feel too guilty.
20:25 PartclCoke any sample code for those?
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20:25 lumi Other than the tests?
20:26 PartclCoke Didn't see any tests in pugs.
20:26 PartclCoke saw, "TODO"
20:26 lumi t/closure_traits/* ?
20:26 PartclCoke (in http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/t)
20:26 lambdabot Title: Revision 15175: /t
20:27 PartclCoke ah. hadn't looked for enough different kinds of traits. thanks again.
20:27 lumi np
20:27 PartclCoke ... I am continually reminded of how ugly I think this is. :|
20:28 lumi How is it ugly?
20:28 weinig is now known as weinig|bbl
20:29 lumi Looking at the smoke, it looks like everything in closure_traits passes
20:29 PartclCoke perl6? Most of the samples I see leave me thinking "powerful, but ugly". If I had anything more articulate, I'd be on the language list with it. =-)
20:30 lumi There's always Lisp
20:30 PartclCoke eh. perl5 is fine. =-)
20:30 PartclCoke Hurm. no way to add ENTER/LEAVE at run time?
20:30 lumi You find Perl 6 uglier than 5?
20:31 PartclCoke typically, yes.
20:31 PartclCoke perhaps I'll have a change of heart if I ever actually use it. who knows.
20:32 lumi Just wait til Christmas
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20:37 putter Could someone remind me of the relative performance of p5 sub's vs methods?  Steady state, not first call.
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20:53 dmq i think its like 30% slower
20:55 putter dmq:  my thanks
20:55 dmq i dont know that you should quote it, i just recall that from somewhere.
20:55 putter understood
20:56 putter if it were a small integer factor, I'd be inclined to preemptively optimize.  but for 30% on a subsystem, nah.
20:57 * putter is transliterating the redsix precedence parser into p5.  happy to discuss choice if anyone cares.
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22:10 putter Anyone know what the current mechanism of choice is in p5 for throw-catch aka exceptions aka longjump?  Error?
22:12 audreyt Exception::Class
22:12 audreyt (if you want structured exception objects)
22:13 moritz hi, I just wantet to hint that the "Binary builds" link on pugscode.org is a 403 ;)
22:14 moritz and the "illustrations" link as well
22:14 putter there's only a single exception flavor, and I don't really need a payload.  so simple is fine.
22:14 putter E::C is slower than Error?
22:15 putter moritz: thanks for the report! :)
22:15 moritz putter: np ;)
22:16 putter audreyt: btw, my thanks for the pointer
22:16 svnbot6 r15176 | audreyt++ | * Fix broken links on pugscode.org as pointed by moritz++.
22:16 audreyt putter: not heavily, I don't think.
22:16 audreyt moritz: fixed, thanks
22:16 putter danke
22:16 audreyt moritz: next time around you can commit to docs/feather/pugscode.org/ too :)
22:17 moritz audreyt: without password? cool ;)
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22:17 putter (he asked for it...:)
22:18 moritz audreyt: I still get a 403, but it could be a transparent proxy that's causing the problem
22:19 putter moritz: if you /msg me an email address, a repository account invite will land in your inbox...
22:19 audreyt moritz: it'll refresh in but 5mins
22:20 audreyt moritz: a commit bit is in your inbox now :)
22:20 putter lol
22:20 audreyt customary, add yourself to AUTHORS as the first commit. Welcome aboard!  http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs/docs/Pugs/Doc/Hack.pod has some more ptrs.
22:20 lambdabot Title: Pugs::Doc::Hack - How to hack on Pugs - search.cpan.org
22:21 moritz ok, I'll read that ;)
22:21 audreyt and if you're not actually mlenz at physik dot uni-wuerzburg dot de, yell now and I'll have the commit bit re-sent :)
22:21 moritz audreyt: I am ;)
22:22 * putter wonders if project_planning/TASKS is mentioned in Hack.pod
22:22 audreyt putter: no; please do
22:23 audreyt putter: also, have you used/adminned a trac before?
22:23 audreyt now that I finally get some homeostasis back, setting up trac may make xref code/issue easier
22:24 masak audreyt: happy to hear about the homeostasis
22:24 putter re before, no
22:24 audreyt masak: somewhat ironically, $job is competing fun with pugs :) as jifty dodges many perl5 pains, and we import more and more of perl6 into production
22:25 masak audreyt: that's great
22:25 putter re "xref code/issue", ??
22:25 audreyt (as of this writing I'm doing this RDBMS-synchronized-with-SVK backend for jifty that turns any hosted app instantly into synchronizable offline app)
22:25 audreyt putter: code tree cross-referenced with issue tracking as well asdocs
22:25 moritz speaking of production... is there a perl6 mod_perl module for apache?
22:25 putter ooooooooo...
22:26 masak wow
22:26 audreyt moritz: there was an early port of pugs on mod_parrot, but currently plain CGI is the only option.
22:26 audreyt moritz: otoh, I guess you can
22:26 audreyt    use perl5:FCGI;
22:26 audreyt though I havn't tried it myself.
22:27 moritz audreyt: ok, I was just curious ;)
22:28 masak &
22:31 audreyt hm, GHC sure has improved in the month I was away.
22:32 audreyt full "make profiled" build of Pugs: 7min (was 30min)
22:32 audreyt (that's from realclean.)
22:32 audreyt see if it translates into smoketime as well...
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22:49 putter any chance of hs-prime moving the prelude off monads onto arrows? ;)
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23:02 putter TimToady: Any thoughts on when the bottom half of the sandwich might have a draft?
23:03 putter I'm pondering transliterating the "generate all the operators" section of redsix, but it's known to be so very non-spec.
23:04 putter (and if you use a script to generate the p6, the script would in itself be useful (to skip having to parse the p6))
23:09 putter anyone: you could of course also play.  the spec is in http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S03.html . (the redsix kludge in http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/misc/pX/Common/redsix/redsix_snapshot.rb , section ###*** Operator declarations)
23:09 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 3: Perl 6 Operators - perl6:
23:10 putter wanted - p5 code which enumerates the operators, each with all its associated info.
23:12 putter (when my operator precedence parser hatches, it will be hungry...)
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23:31 moritz *grml* pugs (svn == 15176) doesn't build, error message is ``Setup: error reading ./.setup-config; run "setup configure" command?''
23:31 svnbot6 r15177 | putter++ | project_planning/TASKS - new task: Mention TASKS file in Hack.pod.
23:31 moritz any idea how to fix this?
23:32 moritz and yes, I installed the modules mentioned in INSTALL.v6-alpha ;)
23:32 putter curious
23:32 putter one sec
23:32 wolverian hey, ruby2 stole our lambda!
23:33 wolverian those bastards :)
23:33 moritz shoot 'em ;)
23:33 wolverian I suppose it's a good sign ..
23:33 tene wolverian: explain more?
23:34 allbery_b lambdabot hangs out in ruby channel?  yeh.  seems the Rails folks are vbecoming addicted to haskell
23:34 putter TimToady: I wasn't thinking.  Would need terms too.  A rather more involved task.  So... whenever.  It's not pressing just yet.
23:34 allbery_b maybe you can corrupt them to perl6 :)
23:34 wolverian tene, ruby2 uses -> (a, b) { ... } to denote a lambda, apparently.
23:34 wolverian or so I gathered from redsix :)
23:34 putter yes
23:35 putter lol
23:35 allbery_b oh, that
23:35 wolverian what does the comment that older rubies didn't have a real lambda mean? are they broken like in python?
23:36 putter python lambda's are limited to a single expression (no statements)
23:36 pasteling "evalbot_r15176" at 194.145.200.126 pasted "Pugs build failure" (375 lines, 20.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/22811
23:36 wolverian and they're read only
23:36 * wolverian stares at evalbot_r15175
23:37 putter ruby 1.* lambdas...   a = 2;  lambda (a) {...}  the a arg is bound to the same cell as the a = 2.
23:37 wolverian oh. it doesn't grab its own context? that's no lambda.
23:38 putter lambda(b) would work as expected.  as long as b isnt mentioned in surrounding context. :/
23:38 wolverian well, ruby's scoping is broken in any case.
23:40 putter rb scoping has many nice characteristics.
23:43 putter moritz: ghc --version ?
23:43 moritz putter: 6.6
23:43 moritz (from debian etch)
23:44 putter (so much for that hypothesis...)
23:44 moritz putter: http://moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/pugs-build-log <-- full build log
23:45 moritz (`script` messed up a few characters, though)
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23:45 tene Anyone have anything interesting to say about the current state of Perl6 Rules in pugs?
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23:48 putter moritz: so its not finding network-2.0 for network-any
23:49 moritz putter: ok, so what do I do about it?
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23:50 putter related to these?  http://packages.debian.org/unstable/source/haskell-network  http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/h/haskell-network/haskell-network_2.0-3/changelog ?
23:50 lambdabot Title: Debian -- haskell-network
23:51 putter do you have haskell-network installed?
23:51 moritz no, it's not in testing
23:51 moritz so I'll just have to get the unstable version...
23:52 putter curious that we haven't hit it before.
23:53 putter tene: I'm too out of date to have anything interesting to say.  You might look at a recent smoke to get an idea of current status.
23:53 moritz it's not even listed at http://packages.debian.org/unstable/devel/
23:53 lambdabot Title: Debian -- Software Packages in "unstable", devel section
23:54 putter I didn't have to install it separately.  Could it be (supposed to be?) part of the normal ghc package?
23:55 moritz putter: then it wouldn't be listed separately als pool/main/h/haskell-network
23:55 weinig is now known as weinig|away
23:55 moritz putter: (at least I think so )
23:56 moritz I'm currently playing with my pinning to get a haskell package from unstable
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23:58 putter tene: if you explore, and it turns out pugs is using a p5-side implementation of p6 regexs, I would be interested in hearing that.

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