Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-02-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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06:06 svnbot6 r15211 | lwall++ | Finished roughing in the operator precedence parser.
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06:07 svnbot6 r15212 | lwall++ | typos, brainos
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07:53 svnbot6 r15213 | lwall++ | balanced and unbalanced scanners, some bogus sublanguage dispatch
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08:49 dolmans everyday all i see here is someone quit/leaving/joining,etc.
08:49 jisom maybe have your irc client not show that?
08:49 avar it has been pretty quiet lately
08:50 moritz 08:53 < svnbot6> r15213 | lwall++ | balanced and unbalanced scanners, some
08:50 moritz                 bogus sublanguage dispatch
08:50 moritz ;)
08:50 dolmans but that is too quiet! i like to recv some messages, even logs.
08:51 moritz dolmans: foo ;)
08:51 moritz dolmans: like that?
08:51 moritz ;)
08:51 dolmans oh my god, bang.
08:51 tene ?eval entertain dolmans
08:51 evalbot_r15213 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&dolmans"
08:51 tene ?eval entertain "dolmans"
08:51 evalbot_r15213 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&entertain"
08:52 tene ?eval dance
08:52 evalbot_r15213 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&dance"
08:52 tene looks like evalbot isn't going to help
08:52 jisom weird, is dolmans supposed to fail before entertain?
08:52 jisom ? say "do some svn commits, dolmans"
08:53 jisom eh, you know what it means
08:53 moritz ?eval say "do some svn commits, dolmans"
08:53 evalbot_r15213 OUTPUT[do some svn commits, dolmans␤] Bool::True
08:53 tene See?  The "Bool::True" means that evalbot agrees.
08:53 moritz ;)
08:53 tene ?eval die Bool::True
08:53 evalbot_r15213 Error: 1
08:54 dolmans i'd like to do that. ok guys, i know there are so many people, so go on be quiet.
08:54 tene dolmans: we're just having a little fun. :)
08:57 dolmans tene: so go on hack, perl6, not me. :), but who is a doctor? i coughed a lot.
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14:15 audreyt TimToady: =<>.map:{.say} -- should it work lazily as "for"?
14:16 audreyt also, is it okay if we make =<>.>>say strict, that is for all hyper operators to operate only on eager data? because "lazy lists" and data parallelism doesn't, generally, mix
14:17 NewCoke is lambdabot source in pugs?
14:17 audreyt NewCoke: no, it's over there in #haskell
14:19 audreyt TimToady: or perhaps =<>.>>say is still lazy, and we only do true data parallelism when the data type is a native dense type (e.g. "seq of int")?
14:21 audreyt (S03 says nothing explicit about hyper vs laziness; Junction, on the other hand, is probably eager-only, so it's cool)
14:23 [particle] =<>.>>say may print lines out of order
14:24 audreyt yes, that part I know :)
14:24 audreyt the question is, does it wait for you to hit EOF
14:24 audreyt or not
14:25 audreyt to start printing
14:25 [particle] i think not
14:25 [particle] what if the handle is infinite?
14:25 audreyt but hypers are designed for data parralism
14:25 audreyt namely
14:25 audreyt [1..1000]>>.sqrt
14:25 audreyt can be handy if your cpu has SSE
14:26 [particle] yes
14:26 audreyt but if we say that we must preserve laziness
14:26 audreyt then it's essentially sequential
14:26 * [particle] is hoping to have a multi-cpu multi-core soon
14:26 audreyt for both the range generator and the readline generator
14:26 audreyt and so SSE instructions are useless
14:26 audreyt as you only demand one piece of data at a time
14:27 [particle] any generators where laziness is not preserved?
14:27 audreyt no, I mean the hyper consumer
14:27 [particle] yes
14:27 audreyt we already know that "for" consumer preserves laziness
14:27 audreyt because it is sequential in nature
14:27 audreyt but the hyper consumer, for it to be parallel, must obtain multiple chunks of data in order to be effective
14:28 [particle] this could be controlled by pragmata, but i think that's too far from the code
14:28 [particle] default to parallel -- have ability to specify serial ?
14:29 audreyt well, you can special serial using "map"...
14:29 audreyt *specify
14:29 * audreyt ponders
14:30 [particle] i didn't think map specified serial, but it's been a while since i read that synopsis
14:30 audreyt =<>.>>.say # it's not really far removed from code
14:30 audreyt whether it blocks for EOF or not is plainly visible :)
14:31 audreyt well, map must preserve order of side effects
14:31 audreyt and so can't really use parallelism instructions
14:31 [particle] so, the p6 equiv of $. would be the last line in the file using map
14:32 [particle] but not true using hyper?
14:32 [particle] that's fine. hyper means parallel to me
14:32 [particle] s/means/implies/
14:32 audreyt cool.
14:33 [particle] heck, they could be called 'parallel operators'
14:34 moritz how do I read from stdin in pugs?
14:34 audreyt =<>
14:34 moritz audreyt: thanks
14:34 audreyt =*IN
14:34 audreyt np :)
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15:39 avar http://sial.org/pbot/22880 # audreyt ?;)
15:39 lambdabot Title: Paste #22880 from Someone at 85.197.228.236
15:40 avar audreyt: see #p5p for what needs to be done for it, but any comment on the general API wrt using P::C::R on it?
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16:08 audreyt avar++ # yay!
16:08 audreyt good enough, I'd say, for PCR integration
16:09 audreyt $::pattern is magick?
16:09 avar $::pattern = $main::pattern
16:09 avar nope
16:09 audreyt can I access the private use area to hold one SV then?
16:09 TimToady mornin'
16:09 audreyt that is all we need to store compiled regexes
16:09 avar anyway, I'm going to change thee interface, it sucks atm:)
16:09 avar it's going to be:
16:09 TimToady backlogging...
16:10 avar comp => sub { my $re = shift; if ($re->flags & FOLD) { .. } }, exec => sub { my ($re, $str) = @_; if ($str =~ $re->pattern (or just $re)) ...
16:10 avar $::pattern is just a nasty hack to pass data between the two:)
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16:13 avar audreyt: wrt private use area, sure, I'm going to be passing a blessed SV* around in the ->pprivate structure, I could add a $re->stash( $anything ); to it, sound neat?
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16:15 audreyt yup.
16:15 audreyt and $re->stash as the read accessor
16:16 audreyt and init to undef. that makes GC easier
16:16 audreyt (we can use InsideOut to sidestep, but in this case a simple stash is easier)
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16:18 avar mm
16:19 avar you'll always be able to do:
16:19 avar my $stash;
16:19 audreyt hm?
16:19 avar use re::engine::Plugin (comp => \&comp, exec => \&exec);
16:19 avar or, hrm
16:20 avar that isn't going to work if you have my ($a, $b) = (qr//, qr//);
16:20 audreyt :)
16:20 avar ignore me:)
16:21 TimToady hypers are eager but declaratively parallelizable because they imply the operator runs till completion
16:22 audreyt TimToady: so "for" runs till completion, but "map" does not?
16:22 * avar ponders what the best quote character to use for embedding rules in p5 regexen is
16:22 avar TimToady: stop taking up metacharacters already!:)
16:22 audreyt and a hyperop is an eager map?
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16:22 TimToady I'm not sure junctions have to be eager: any(=<>) == 1 can stop as soon as it see one that equals one, and doesn't imply =<> is read serially, though it probably is
16:22 avar my $re = qr<<< >>>: # I wish
16:22 audreyt can we write the differences down in the Hyper section of syn?
16:22 TimToady we need a "paramap"
16:22 avar hrm, since the quotes are balanced that might not be an issue
16:23 * avar wanders of
16:23 avar f
16:23 TimToady I'm trying to make map and for isomorphic
16:23 TimToady so we ned a "parafor" too
16:23 TimToady s:2nd/e/ee/
16:24 audreyt for =<>.map:{ .sqrt } { .say }
16:24 audreyt for =<> { .sqrt.say }
16:24 audreyt same thing?
16:24 TimToady yes
16:24 audreyt so it's just the void context that forces consumption?
16:24 audreyt i.e., void context is an eager consumer
16:25 TimToady hmm, I guess
16:25 TimToady seems odd
16:25 audreyt but essential to get the for.say working
16:25 audreyt otherwise it'll not consume anything
16:26 TimToady I wonder how many faqs we'll get about accidental non-void context...
16:26 moritz many ;)
16:26 audreyt $x = =<>.map:{.say}; # nothing is read
16:26 audreyt =<>.map:{.say}; # everything is read
16:26 audreyt (according to this interpretation)
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16:27 TimToady I wouldn't say "nothing"
16:27 audreyt or maybe
16:27 TimToady at least one value is read
16:27 cognominal audreyt, are you going to the hackathon? http://conferences.yapceurope.org/hack2007nl/stats
16:27 audreyt @x = =<>.map:{.say}; # nothing is read
16:27 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
16:27 lambdabot Title: European Perl Hackathon 2007 - The Netherlands - European Perl Hackathon 2007 St ...
16:27 audreyt and $x= forces the length. not sure
16:27 shay hi
16:28 audreyt shay: greetings
16:28 moritz hey shay ;)
16:28 TimToady I'd think @x= would be "everything"
16:28 shay :)
16:28 shay a pleasure to meet you all
16:29 TimToady @x := would just bind in the lazy list and read nothing (yet)
16:29 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
16:29 audreyt ok. ditto for $x:=, surely
16:29 audreyt but what about $x=?
16:29 audreyt conceptually it allocs a mutable array always
16:29 svnbot6 r15214 | audreyt++ | * Switch arrays from Data.Sequence to GHC's native parallel arrays
16:29 svnbot6 r15214 | audreyt++ |   (no user-visible changes).  For now this merely gives us a slight
16:29 svnbot6 r15214 | audreyt++ |   speed/memory boost (both <5% generally), but will become useful later
16:29 svnbot6 r15214 | audreyt++ |   with a first-class Seq object implemented in MO.
16:29 svnbot6 r15214 | audreyt++ |   Also, when GHC 6.8 is released with data parallelism that natively makes
16:29 svnbot6 r15214 | audreyt++ |   use SSE/GPU for hyper operations -- even for nested boxed objects --
16:30 TimToady looks kinda like a list in scalar context
16:30 svnbot6 r15214 | audreyt++ |   this will make hyperops _extremely_ fast.
16:30 audreyt so perhaps it's also "everything"
16:30 audreyt @x = 1..99999999; # also forced? or is Range somehow special?
16:30 lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
16:31 TimToady I think that's least surprise; the scalar context doesn't propagate through to the =
16:31 audreyt k. so also everything
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16:32 TimToady I think it'd be dwimmy if @x = 1..* worked at least, and 99999999 is pretty close to *
16:32 audreyt so Array recognize "unboxed range" as one of its specs
16:33 audreyt sure
16:33 audreyt cognominal: no, 'mafraid not.
16:34 cognominal too bad :(
16:34 audreyt TimToady: the lambdaheads over there figured out ways to automagically make $tree.>>?sqrt use GPU, even if it contains sparse heterogenous nodes, in which some are sqrt'able and some are not
16:34 audreyt and the good thing is we don't need to change a line in pugs :)
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16:35 audreyt (relevant paper: "Data Parallel Haskell: a status report")
16:35 TimToady wow
16:36 audreyt and also automagically SMP-linearly-scaled like everything else :)
16:37 TimToady well, it's sorta parallel booleans interspersed with numerics
16:37 audreyt right. the idea is just to allocate one dense storage for each distinct type found in the tree
16:37 audreyt this however means we can't promise order even across levels.
16:37 TimToady maybe I can use $tree.>>.?subst to fix my heredoc whitespace in the GPU.  :)
16:38 audreyt but spec currently says it's okay (only conjecturally not-ok)
16:38 audreyt so perhaps keep it at okay :)
16:38 audreyt (S03:2685)
16:38 TimToady conjectures are lazy feedback receptors.  :)
16:38 audreyt :)
16:39 audreyt so I'm giving the pugs talk next monday to google.tw, focusing on metaprogramming, concurrency and parallelism
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16:39 audreyt going to make slides (the one that I should've worked on for POPL) over the weekend
16:39 audreyt and maybe make the code match the slides :)
16:40 Taral audrey, did you get my /msg?
16:40 audreyt Taral: just replied
16:40 Taral you did?
16:40 audreyt anyway, sleep, be back in ~8hrs :)
16:40 Taral don't see reply :<
16:40 audreyt Taral: $job switched to SuSE
16:40 audreyt so no AIX GHC builds (for now) from me
16:40 Taral So no AIX?
16:40 Taral bah.
16:40 Taral ok, I guess I'll try to port over the apple powerpc stuff
16:41 audreyt k. sorry about that
16:41 Taral np
16:41 Taral nini
16:41 audreyt will still be interested as it can boost performance of already-deployed-in-field code
16:41 audreyt but not enough of a $job priority atm
16:41 audreyt g'nite :)
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16:42 TimToady night
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18:00 NewCoke already deployed: people are using pugs *in production*? =-)
18:01 moritz NewCoke: who?
18:01 NewCoke 11:42 < audreyt> will still be interested as it can boost performance of already-deployed-in-field code
18:03 [particle] audreyt and timtoady, for example
18:03 NewCoke ... those two, specifically, don't count. =-)
18:03 * NewCoke stares at the perl6-on-parrot code...
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21:03 svnbot6 r15215 | lwall++ | more sublanguage support
21:03 svnbot6 r15215 | lwall++ | categories are now declared with the newly unified proto modifier
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22:04 svnbot6 r15216 | lwall++ | random cleanup
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22:07 broquaint TimToady++ # Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm is groovy.
22:08 [particle] i don't think parrot will be able to parse it for a while yet :)
22:10 moritz hu? is parrot supposed to parse perl6 code?
22:10 moritz I thought that was perl6's task ;)
22:10 allbery_b not likepugs can parse it yet either :)
22:11 [particle] the perl6 implementation that runs on parrot
22:12 [particle] allbery_b: it's good to have a clear target, though :)
22:12 moritz [particle]: how advanced is that, eg compared to pugs?
22:12 [particle] moritz: it's in it's infancy
22:12 moritz [particle]: ok ;)
22:12 [particle] currently missing END blocks and iterators (for for loops)
22:13 [particle] but will *soon* be passing pugs's 01-sanity tests
22:13 moritz sounds like a whole lot of work ;)
22:13 [particle] then it can run Test.pm (written in perl6)
22:13 [particle] then we can import the entire pugs test suite
22:13 [particle] then the real work begins :)
22:14 moritz and how far is parrot?
22:14 [particle] many subsystems still have only reference implementations
22:14 [particle] but design and implementation continues
22:14 moritz so there is still hope ;)
22:14 [particle] we should have a near-final object model soon
22:15 [particle] i have hope, anyway
22:15 moritz (I know there is, otherwise I wouldn't be here ;)
22:16 moritz I'm currently writing a perl6 summary for (non-perl) programmers on my homepage, and the longer I write the more features I discover that should be included...
22:17 moritz and I'm nowhere near the _real_ fancy stuff right now ;)
22:17 [particle] looking less like a summary every day :)
22:18 moritz s/summary/tutorial,introduction/
22:18 moritz yes, that#s right
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22:33 Limbic_Region TimToady - just saw the "recent changes" note to the list.  Sounds exciting ;-)
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22:48 moritz print $fh "something"; doesn't seem to be implemented in pugs.. or am I just to stupid?
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22:50 [particle] try $fh.print("foo")
22:50 wolverian moritz, that would be print $fh: "foo"; I think.
22:51 moritz wolverian: yes, that's fine, thank you
22:52 moritz wolverian: I justed look in the specs, and it just says print FILEHANDLE LIST
22:52 moritz so is : part of the FILEHANDLE?
22:52 moritz or is doc/Perl6/Spec/IO.pm just outdated?
22:52 Limbic_Region which spec?  presumably S29 ?
22:52 moritz doc/Perl6/Spec/IO.pm
22:54 moritz S29 doesn't even mention print ;)
22:54 wolverian because you're supposed to use say ;)
22:55 Limbic_Region moritz - I had brief discussion with $larry the other day regarding the synopses
22:55 Limbic_Region mortiz - it was tangently related
22:55 Limbic_Region moritz - I would not necessarily think that *that* synopsis was correct and the pugs implementation wrong
22:56 Limbic_Region mortiz - but the reason why I think that is fuzzy
22:57 Limbic_Region moritz - OTOH, if the pugs test suite regarding IO to filehandles is lacking
22:57 Limbic_Region write plenty of failing test cases to the spec
22:57 Limbic_Region that will get someone's attention
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22:57 Limbic_Region either the test case or the spec (or both) will be updated
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22:58 Limbic_Region moritz - and more tests are always better
22:59 moritz Limbic_Region: so just ignore the current status of pugs and write failing testcases that fit with the specs?
22:59 Limbic_Region yes
22:59 Limbic_Region even if it is wrong, it will draw attention to it
23:00 moritz Limbic_Region: ok, I'll do that
23:00 moritz but not today, I'm too tired ;)
23:00 moritz time for bed ;)
23:00 [particle] only the spec and the testsuite are official perl 6
23:01 moritz [particle]: you're write, but both are propably not free of errors
23:01 [particle] indeed
23:01 [particle] ...but with your help... ;)
23:01 * Limbic_Region is currently grep'ing "print" from all the specs to see if they say contradictory things
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23:02 Limbic_Region possibly something in syntax.pod but need more context to know for sure
23:03 moritz real life sucks because I can't grep my room ;)
23:04 ashleyb moritz: NewCoke: I use pugs in production too.
23:05 moritz ashleyb: how?
23:05 ashleyb specifically Pugs::Compiler::Regex
23:06 audreyt well, svnbot6 is deployed in #parrot and here
23:06 Limbic_Region moritz - AFAICT, there is no contradiction in the specs so definately write failing test cases against IO.pod
23:06 audreyt and that is considered "production" I think :)
23:06 Limbic_Region audreyt - are you awake or talking in your sleep again?
23:06 audreyt talking in my sleep mostly.
23:07 audreyt TimToady's STD.pm just parses with pugs.
23:07 audreyt running smoke and if nothing breaks horribly, commit+sleep a bit more
23:07 Limbic_Region ok, won't bother you but can I ask if you have return mostly to full time?
23:07 Limbic_Region s/return/returned/
23:07 audreyt well, full-time sanity
23:07 Limbic_Region ok, good
23:07 audreyt still only part-time pugs; jifty claims the other half of my hacking attention
23:08 audreyt (the better half, for the moment)
23:08 * Limbic_Region extends his well wishes again and reminds audreyt that she has virtual shoulders if she needs or wants them
23:08 Limbic_Region well - back to full time hackery is good even if we have to share you
23:08 Limbic_Region ;-)
23:08 audreyt thanks :) I think I finally unscrambled my brain sufficiently
23:09 audreyt this brain-sudoku thing is hard to play
23:09 moritz ashleyb: brain-sudoku?
23:09 moritz um, audreyt, sorry ;)
23:09 sri_ joined perl6
23:09 Limbic_Region audreyt - well duh, it's hyperdimensional
23:09 audreyt moritz: trying to restore a cognitive system back to homeostasis, using only (very partial!) high-level introspection and no analysis tools
23:10 moritz audreyt: ok ;)
23:10 audreyt well, there are theoretically analysis tools
23:10 audreyt but I don't have spare EEG machines at home...
23:11 * Limbic_Region notes the hunger pangs and wanders off for food
23:12 moritz audreyt: even if you had, I've heard EEGs are rather hard to parse ;)
23:13 audreyt well, but it's much better than this verbal cortex thing...
23:14 audreyt more finely grained and less prone to nonlinear feedback
23:14 audreyt *feedback loop
23:14 svnbot6 r15217 | audreyt++ | * STD.pm - Various syntax errors and typos catched by
23:14 svnbot6 r15217 | audreyt++ |   actually parsing this thing with "pugs -c".
23:17 svnbot6 r15218 | audreyt++ | Pugs.Parser.Literal - Factor out regularAdverbPair for
23:17 svnbot6 r15218 | audreyt++ | generalized "is" parsing.
23:20 svnbot6 r15219 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Parser: Parse (but not actually recognize) parameterized
23:20 svnbot6 r15219 | audreyt++ |   regex/token/rule with traits as well as routine modifiers.
23:20 svnbot6 r15219 | audreyt++ |     proto token foo ($some_param) is Moose[Int];
23:22 [particle] where's the pugs equivalent of 'perlrun'?
23:22 [particle] where do i look for pugs runtime flags?
23:22 [particle] eh, i should probably just compile the thing and invoke it
23:24 audreyt [particle]: Pugs::Doc::Run
23:24 [particle] thx, i'll have a look
23:24 [particle] chromatic hacked up a pbc to c translator
23:24 [particle] soon we'll be able to portably create perl.exe
23:24 [particle] based on perl6.pbc
23:24 TimToady moritz: a lot of IO.pod is just copied willy nilly out of Perl 5 docs and is not canonical
23:25 audreyt [particle]: aha, you mean the ahead-of-time compiler is revived
23:25 [particle] yep
23:25 audreyt cool.
23:25 [particle] aot++
23:26 TimToady audreyt: thanks for the parse fixes!
23:26 [particle] how is gc done in pugs? does haskell take care of it?
23:26 audreyt [particle]: yes, GHC has this incremental nonstopping threaded GC
23:27 audreyt with weak, stable and foreign pointers which we use heavily for e.g. non-leaky perl5 integration
23:27 * [particle] just read about Metronome, and is thinking about realtime parrot
23:27 audreyt TimToady: np :) now to make it _run_...
23:27 TimToady er, yeah...
23:28 audreyt but, some more napping... &
23:29 Limbic_Region TimToady - was my advice ill advised?
23:29 * Limbic_Region isn't sure he said that correctly but hopes his point was made
23:33 meppl joined perl6
23:56 svnbot6 r15220 | lwall++ | IO.pod: translated some p5 docs for print.

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