Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-02-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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01:25 audreyt !wiki AboutPugs
01:25 devbot6 audreyt: TracBot does not have a tracBase defined for this channel
01:26 audreyt !wiki AboutPugs
01:26 devbot6 audreyt: http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/AboutPugs
01:26 lambdabot Title: AboutPugs - Pugs - Trac
01:28 audreyt !maketicket "Set up buildbot" We need automated nightly builds for (at least) Win32, OSX and Linux -- Also copy over instructions from eg http://cvs.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/BuildBot
01:28 devbot6 audreyt: Posting a new ticket failed.
01:28 lambdabot Title: BuildBot - GHC - Trac
01:30 TimToady that page says that Perl 6 development happens on p6compiler, but that list has had three messages in the last month...
01:30 audreyt please login and edit it away...
01:32 audreyt and we can test devbot's RSS announcement that way too
01:35 TimToady trouble is I'm not sure what to change it *to*
01:36 audreyt delete it then? :)
01:36 allbery_b #perl6 of course :)
01:37 TimToady should it send something here?
01:38 devbot6 is now known as audreyt
01:38 TimToady run away!!! it's the devil bot!!!
01:38 TimToady whew!
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01:47 devbot6 Announcement from my owner (audreyt): #perl6 tracfeed
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01:50 devbot6 http://dev.pugscode.org/timeline?milestone=on&amp;ticket=on&amp;ticketdetails=on&amp;wiki=on&amp;max=5&amp;daysback=2&amp;format=rss: AboutPugs edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/AboutPugs> || AboutPugs edited by lwall <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/AboutPugs> || WikiStart edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/WikiStart> || ProjectDependencyGraph edited by gaal <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/ProjectDependencyGraph> || WikiStart edited by audreyt <
01:50 lambdabot Title: Timeline - Pugs - Trac, http://tinyurl.com/2zaxzo
01:51 audreyt !rss announce dev
01:51 devbot6 audreyt: The operation succeeded.
01:51 TimToady but did the patient survive?
01:51 devbot6 dev: AboutPugs edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/AboutPugs> || AboutPugs edited by lwall <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/AboutPugs> || WikiStart edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/WikiStart> || ProjectDependencyGraph edited by gaal <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/ProjectDependencyGraph> || WikiStart edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/WikiStart>
01:52 TimToady should the channel topic be pointing there somewhere?
01:52 audreyt sure
01:52 audreyt sec
01:52 ashelyb_ audreyt: I checked out the rss feed -- it doesn't show authors of commits, which is slightly annoying.
01:53 TimToady the spew here does
01:53 devbot6 dev: AboutPugs edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/AboutPugs> || AboutPugs edited by lwall <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/AboutPugs> || WikiStart edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/WikiStart> || ProjectDependencyGraph edited by gaal <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/ProjectDependencyGraph> || WikiStart edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/WikiStart> || AboutPugs edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/Ab
01:53 ashelyb_ TimToady: true, though I wish the spew here showed files changed.
01:53 TimToady it seems cumulative
01:54 audreyt tweaking
01:54 devbot6 dev: AboutPugs edited by audreyt <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/AboutPugs>
01:54 audreyt ok, better.
01:54 ashelyb_ nice!
01:54 ashelyb_ audreyt++
01:54 TimToady .++.++
01:56 devbot6 dev: Ticket #1 (task created): Set up BuildBot for nightly builds <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/1>
01:57 audreyt that looks... useful
01:59 audreyt rss add planet6 http://planetsix.perl-foundation.org/rss20.xml
01:59 audreyt !rss add planet6 http://planetsix.perl-foundation.org/rss20.xml
01:59 devbot6 audreyt: The operation succeeded.
02:00 audreyt !rss announce planet6
02:00 devbot6 audreyt: The operation succeeded.
02:00 devbot6 planet6: perl6.announce: Weekly Perl 6 mailing list summary for 14-20 January, 2007 <http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.announce/549> || Audrey Tang: Weekly Perl 6 mailing list summary for 14-20 January, 2007 <http://pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2007/01/weekly_perl_6_m_2.html> || Luke Palmer: Perl 6 Rules: Elementary Compositionality + More Vocabulary <http://use.perl.org/~luqui/journal/32200?from=rss> || perl6.announce: Weekly Perl 6 mailing list
02:02 audreyt !changeset 15213
02:02 devbot6 audreyt: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/15213
02:02 lambdabot Title: Changeset 15213 - Pugs - Trac
02:03 audreyt !addticket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev and make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs"
02:03 devbot6 audreyt: Error: "addticket" is not a valid command.
02:03 audreyt !newticket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev and make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs"
02:03 devbot6 audreyt: (newticket ) -- Gives the link to the trac ticket submission page.
02:04 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev and make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs"
02:04 devbot6 audreyt: (maketicket [--type=<type>] [--reporter=<reporter>] [--component=<component>] [--owner=<owner>] [--milestone=<milestone>] [--version=<version>] "<summary>" <description> ) -- Submit a new ticket with summary <summary> and description <description> with the supplied options.
02:04 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs
02:04 devbot6 audreyt: Posting a new ticket failed.
02:04 audreyt hm.
02:09 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs
02:09 devbot6 audreyt: Posting a new ticket failed.
02:10 tene !maketicket "Making tickets through devbot6 doesn't work" Someone should fix devbot6 so that you can use it to make tickets
02:10 devbot6 tene: Posting a new ticket failed.
02:12 audreyt lol
02:13 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs
02:13 devbot6 audreyt: Posting a new ticket failed: http://dev.pugscode.org/newticket ().
02:13 lambdabot Title: New Ticket - Pugs - Trac
02:14 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs
02:14 devbot6 audreyt: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
02:14 audreyt hm, 400 bad request
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02:19 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs
02:19 devbot6 audreyt: 'Posting a new ticket failed: http://dev.pugscode.org/newticket (<!DOCTYPE html\n    PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"\n    "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">\n<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" xml:lang="en">\n<head>\n <title>New Ticket - Pugs - Trac</title><link rel="start" href="/wiki" /><link rel="search" href="/search" /><link rel="help" (17 more messages)
02:19 lambdabot Title: New Ticket - Pugs - Trac
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02:21 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs
02:21 devbot6 audreyt: 'Posting a new ticket failed: http://dev.pugscode.org/newticket (<!DOCTYPE html\n    PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"\n    "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">\n<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" xml:lang="en">\n<head>\n <title>New Ticket - Pugs - Trac</title><link rel="start" href="/wiki" /><link rel="search" href="/search" /><link rel="help" (17 more messages)
02:21 lambdabot Title: New Ticket - Pugs - Trac
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03:05 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs.
03:05 devbot6 audreyt: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
03:05 tene ?eval my $j = any(1..100); say "omgwtf" if 20 == $j
03:05 evalbot_r15237 is now known as evalbot_r15241
03:05 evalbot_r15241 OUTPUT[omgwtf␤omgwtf␤] (Bool::True)
03:06 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs.
03:06 devbot6 audreyt: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
03:08 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs.
03:08 devbot6 audreyt: 'Posting a new ticket failed: http://dev.pugscode.org/newticket (<!DOCTYPE html\n    PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"\n    "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">\n<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" xml:lang="en">\n<head>\n <title>New Ticket - Pugs - Trac</title><link rel="start" href="/wiki" /><link rel="search" href="/search" /><link rel="help" (17 more messages)
03:08 lambdabot Title: New Ticket - Pugs - Trac
03:09 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs.
03:09 devbot6 audreyt: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
03:09 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs.
03:09 devbot6 audreyt: 'Posting a new ticket failed: http://dev.pugscode.org/newticket (<!DOCTYPE html\n    PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"\n    "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">\n<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" xml:lang="en">\n<head>\n <title>New Ticket - Pugs - Trac</title><link rel="start" href="/wiki" /><link rel="search" href="/search" /><link rel="help" (17 more messages)
03:09 lambdabot Title: New Ticket - Pugs - Trac
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03:11 tene ?eval my $j = any(1..100); my $k = 1; $k++ if 20 == $j; $k
03:11 evalbot_r15241 \3
03:11 tene That's... wrong.
03:11 tene I think.
03:12 lidden ?eval my $j = any(1..100); my $k = 1; $k++ if 200 == $j; $k
03:12 evalbot_r15241 \1
03:16 audreyt !maketicket "Move pugscode.org pages from svn to dev" Also, make pugscode.org redirect to AboutPugs.
03:16 devbot6 audreyt: 'Posting a new ticket failed: http://dev.pugscode.org/newticket (<!DOCTYPE html\n    PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"\n    "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">\n<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en" xml:lang="en">\n<head>\n <title>New Ticket - Pugs - Trac</title><link rel="start" href="/wiki" /><link rel="search" href="/search" /><link rel="help" (17 more messages)
03:16 lambdabot Title: New Ticket - Pugs - Trac
03:17 * audreyt gives up for now ;)
03:17 tene So, audreyt, you able to confirm or deny that that's a bug?
03:17 audreyt (supposedly it'd need to move form urllib2 to mechanize or cookielib to properly handle cookies.)
03:17 TimToady why don't you put in "constant" as a declarator instead.  :)
03:17 TimToady I tried earlier and failed... :)
03:19 audreyt tene: yes, postfix-if seems to be wrong. write a test please
03:19 audreyt t/junction/ somewhere
03:19 audreyt ?eval  my $j = any(1..100); my $k = 1;  if 20 == $j { $k++ } $k
03:19 evalbot_r15241 \2
03:23 mugwump heh, love that dependency graph
03:24 mugwump what does the blue represent?
03:24 audreyt heya mugwump
03:24 audreyt the blueline is PugsRoadMap numbering
03:26 audreyt TimToady: does "constant sub foo {...}" simply mean "sub foo is inlined {...}"?
03:26 TimToady inlineable, anyway
03:26 TimToady and run at compile time, probably
03:26 TimToady maybe BEGIN is "constant sub BEGIN {...}"
03:27 mugwump is this the same: "sub foo() is pure { ... }" ?
03:28 TimToady dunno, I didn't write that trait
03:28 mugwump oh, I thought pure was the trait for functions without side-effects
03:28 audreyt TimToady: run at compile time?
03:28 audreyt I thought that's what macro is for
03:29 audreyt my sub foo {...}   ===    my &foo ::= sub { ... }
03:29 audreyt constant sub foo {...}   ===    constant &foo ::= sub { ... }
03:29 TimToady macro body isn't "real" code
03:29 TimToady it's metacode
03:29 TimToady at this point, I don't care if it's really constant
03:29 audreyt ok.
03:30 audreyt so it's like "my"
03:30 TimToady I just tried aliasing it to "my" and it didn't work
03:30 audreyt still cisible in MY::() ?
03:30 audreyt *visible
03:30 TimToady presumably
03:31 TimToady aliasing to my and throwing a readonly on it would work for now
03:32 audreyt done.
03:32 audreyt testing before commit...
03:34 TimToady I wonder if the dup junction could be related to multithreading the junction
03:38 audreyt sure is
03:38 svnbot6 r15242 | audreyt++ | * New "constant" scope as alis for "my" (not really constant yet)
03:38 audreyt $_ is passed (True|False)
03:38 audreyt to the implicit block around if
03:38 audreyt ?eval $_ if 3
03:38 evalbot_r15241 \3
03:38 audreyt problem is it really should not be an implicit $_
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03:40 audreyt fixed. testing
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03:57 avar audreyt: http://sial.org/pbot/22906 # more progress on re::engine::Plugin, I basically have everything working, what's left is just moving more stuff to the $re object (named matches et al), supporting captures (easy from now on) and making sure all my SV ref keeping is correct:)
03:57 lambdabot Title: Paste #22906 from Someone at 85.197.228.236
03:58 avar and oops, those flags should be 40961 :)
04:00 * avar sleep &
04:04 TimToady karma TimToady
04:04 jabbot TimToady: TimToady has karma of 40
04:05 audreyt avar: nice!
04:05 audreyt avar: upload upload upload
04:06 avar It's still very brokenish, but I'll be able to make a CPAN release soonish
04:06 avar ish++
04:06 svnbot6 r15243 | audreyt++ | * tene++ reported that:
04:06 svnbot6 r15243 | audreyt++ |     warn if 1|2|3;
04:06 svnbot6 r15243 | audreyt++ |   errorneously warned thrice because it was rewritten as:
04:06 svnbot6 r15243 | audreyt++ |     if 1|2|3 -> $_ { warn }
04:06 svnbot6 r15243 | audreyt++ |   instead of the clearly saner:
04:06 svnbot6 r15243 | audreyt++ |     if 1|2|3 { warn }
04:06 svnbot6 r15243 | audreyt++ |   This commit fixes it by defaulting syntactic prim/bare blocks
04:06 svnbot6 r15243 | audreyt++ |   to take () instead of ($_=$+_).
04:06 audreyt chsh ish
04:15 audreyt <- really should start making slides instead of procrastinating online
04:34 beppu__ audreyt, what are you making slides for?
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04:37 audreyt beppu: Monday's talk @ google.tw
04:38 beppu__ good luck on that.  I haven't been able to contribute much, but I appreciate all the work you're doing for Perl 6.
04:38 * beppu__ going home....
04:38 audreyt thank-you for your kind words :)
04:52 lidden \wii
04:59 Khisanth those seem to be sold out
05:01 amnesiac Khisanth, ssshhh....
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06:33 nothingmuch Ciao all! off to the airport
06:41 kanru =quin
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07:30 gaal there are lambdawii?
07:38 audreyt TimToady: say I'd like to request timely destruction of a variable, in the style of
07:38 audreyt given DBI.connect(...) -> $dbh { LEAVE { $dbh.DESTROY } ... normal code ... }
07:39 audreyt is that the idiomatic way to do this? should there by some way to somehow tell the Codethat its param is to be timely destructed upon LEAVE?
07:39 audreyt (assuming this RAII pattern is desirable to keep)
07:39 audreyt (given nondeterministic GC)
07:42 audreyt I guess this can also be implemented as ENTER/LEAVE methods defined on the $dbh object, and have "given" always call them.
07:46 audreyt (that's the C#/Python way.)
07:46 audreyt the way D solves it is by introducing yet another declarator
07:47 audreyt which translates to p6:
07:47 audreyt given DBI.connect(...) -> $dbh is scoped { ... }
07:48 audreyt the trait would cause its immediate DESTROY upon LEAVE.
07:48 audreyt maybe "scoped" is the wrong word. but a trait feels useful.
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08:24 nothingmuch yo yo yo homies sup
08:24 nothingmuch werd to yo lambdas
08:24 * nothingmuch is studying... stevan is planning on deserting him in New Haven so he can learn how to be an OG
08:29 audreyt OG?
08:29 audreyt Ocaml Guru?
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08:39 rgs that sure sounds like some sort of initiation
08:40 wolverian http://t-a-w.blogspot.com/2007/02/right-to-criticize-programming.html -- nice flame ;)
08:40 lambdabot Title: taw's blog: The right to criticize programming languages, http://tinyurl.com/2cavc5
08:41 rgs so. while I'm here. I hope to put up somewhere a summary of all improvements in 5.10 regexps. just to check that P6 isn't left behind :)
08:41 rgs GeJ: hello.
08:45 audreyt rgs: woot :)
08:46 rgs wolverian: oh come on. this guy says java is portable :)
08:46 wolverian I wish everyone was as lucid as taw in their flames.
08:46 wolverian rgs, compared to many things, it is... (sadly)
08:46 wolverian 'course we know better.
08:46 rgs right.
08:47 rgs I had once to port a Java application (with threads) from Windows to Solaris. That was teh pain. Perl 5 is much nicer. But most languages would have made the thing almost impossible...
08:49 araujo somebody talking so good about java, it's just too suspicious :-)
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10:24 shay|p6 good morning (IST)
10:27 audreyt greetings.
10:31 shay|p6 hello audreyt, how are you doing?
10:31 shay|p6 araujo: hermano :)
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10:43 audreyt shay|p6: doing just fine, trying to find out how to describe Perl 6 as a language optimized to create languages
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10:46 audreyt such that library authors can use another library to shape perl 6 into a language they like, and use that language to shape the language for the library's user (recursively)
10:47 merlyn (and in the distance, 10000 managers run screaming)
10:48 audreyt a general-purpose domain-specific programming language if you will.
10:48 audreyt well, the Rails dialect of Ruby (which is not at all like Ruby) seems to work just fine...
10:48 merlyn as I said... screaming. :)
10:48 merlyn sorry, I wear at least two hats
10:49 audreyt aye aye. which is why perl6 _also_ has to focus on sane defaults
10:49 audreyt unlike perl5 which has this "use strict" dialect
10:49 merlyn as a perl6 user, I'm looking forward to this.  as a guy who has to sell this to corps around teh world, I'm a bit confused at the complexity :)
10:50 audreyt the manager would like people to immediately reshape their perl5 to perl5-strict-dialect, I hope :)
10:51 audreyt the point here is, "shape" very often means not "drastically change syntax" but "enforce certain policy and get the compiler reject all other styles"
10:51 audreyt the ability to do that should make managers happy, I hope :)
10:51 audreyt for example, the ability to completely pretend three-part loops did not exist.
10:51 merlyn it's good ultimately, it just looks scary until it's properly sdescribed
10:52 audreyt nod, which is I'm agonizing over the words/examples to use...
10:53 audreyt s/I'm/why I'm/
11:11 svnbot6 r15244 | moritz++ | Added test cases for say with explicit filehandle
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12:10 ludan ola
12:10 moritz tach ;)
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13:53 * avar yawns
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14:48 vladd hi Ziggy6!
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14:58 pmurias hi
14:59 pmurias are the sematic used by multimethods in specifing the best match speced somewhere?
15:00 pmurias i read the Multisubs and Multimethods section of S12
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15:01 nwc10 A good question. I assume so, but it doesn't seem that anyone who knows the answer is awake
15:01 devbot6 dev: Ticket #2 (task created): Update pugs t/regex/p6regex/ to use the new rx_* files. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/2>
15:02 pmurias the synopsis just uses the word "best"
15:03 audreyt pmurias: docs/notes/multi_method_dispatch/mmd-draft.txt
15:03 audreyt it's the closest we have with @Larry for consensus
15:04 audreyt but it needs to be ported to Spec English and littered with more examples
15:04 audreyt maybe maketicket for that? :)
15:05 TimToady I don't like the voting metaphor
15:06 audreyt neither do I :/ we had the racing metaphor first
15:06 devbot6 dev: Ticket #3 (task created): Capture fglock/putter interview info to kp6 faq. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/3>
15:06 audreyt but racing snipers that doubles as suicide bombers are... a bit too violent for me
15:07 audreyt (I think undeads were there for a while too)
15:07 nwc10 "branes" and zombies? richardc infiltrated perl 6 for a while? :-)
15:08 cmarcelo moose! is there a way to create a default/easy link for showing the all open tickets in trac? now there isn't a 1-click way to view them :P
15:08 lambdabot cmarcelo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:08 audreyt add one to the homepage then? :)
15:08 audreyt wait, http://dev.pugscode.org/query is it no?
15:08 lambdabot Title: Custom Query - Pugs - Trac
15:10 cmarcelo not for me.. I mean, the /query link gets me to a form, not to a list of tickets.. i'll finish TASKS -> tickets then see how to make a 1-click link..
15:11 audreyt cmarcelo++
15:11 audreyt http://dev.pugscode.org/query shows 3 tickets for me
15:11 lambdabot Title: Custom Query - Pugs - Trac
15:12 cmarcelo hmm.. are you logged in?
15:12 devbot6 dev: Ticket #4 (task created): Fix PIL2JS. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/4>
15:12 audreyt tried with both yes and no
15:12 audreyt if you are logged in, try remove the first filter
15:12 audreyt that says owner=you?
15:12 audreyt I think it's a sticky operation
15:14 devbot6 dev: Ticket #5 (task created): Refactor util/run-smoke.pl. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/5>
15:15 cmarcelo every time I leave /query and come back, the first filter is back :(
15:17 audreyt try making a link on the homepage:
15:18 audreyt [query:status=new|assigned|reopened Open tickets]
15:18 devbot6 dev: Ticket #6 (task created): Keep STATUS file updated. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/6>
15:18 audreyt !wiki TracQuery
15:18 devbot6 audreyt: http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/TracQuery
15:18 audreyt see that for more details
15:18 lambdabot Title: TracQuery - Pugs - Trac
15:18 cmarcelo oka
15:20 devbot6 dev: Ticket #7 (task created): Tests directory organization. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/7>
15:21 TimToady audreyt: we've already got "is leave { .close }"
15:22 TimToady er, "will leave { .close }
15:23 TimToady I wonder if explicit reference counting should be built into open/close generally
15:23 TimToady and you make an explicit ref-counted link with some kind of reopen
15:23 cmarcelo (putter?) the files docs/Perl6/Overview/* looks like PODified, so looks like a task done, or the entry in TASKS means something else?
15:25 audreyt TimToady: what I don't quite like is the explicit {.close}
15:25 Limbic_Region babel: german english Auf Wiedersehen
15:25 TimToady will close
15:25 Limbic_Region not here either apparently
15:25 TimToady except then it'd chew up the normal body
15:25 audreyt yeah.
15:26 devbot6 dev: Ticket #8 (task created): Fix old repository (svn.openfoundry.org) references. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/8>
15:26 TimToady is closed
15:26 TimToady is autoclose
15:26 TimToady hmm
15:26 merlyn is clothes
15:26 audreyt the problem with {.close} is it's auotinvoking a userlevel method
15:26 audreyt or rather, force programming to spell out the autoinvoking
15:26 TimToady anyway, if we culturally generalized open/close to refcount semantics, we could have a consistent way to pass out a refcounted object
15:27 TimToady or clean it up if nobody took an explicit refcount
15:27 TimToady merlyn: didn't get a chance to congratulate you!!!
15:27 audreyt nod. that would be nice
15:27 merlyn well, it's more about what I haven't done for ten years, than what I have done. :)
15:27 merlyn but I didn't do anything successfully, so here I am!
15:27 TimToady well, don't start now.  :)
15:27 cmarcelo brb &
15:28 merlyn definitely not!
15:28 devbot6 dev: Ticket #9 (enhancement created): Make evalbot report the build failure when it happens. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/9>
15:28 merlyn it's the biggest non-news in my life. :)
15:28 TimToady where in the world are you at the moment?
15:28 merlyn the anti-press-release
15:28 merlyn just getting off of geekcruise#36
15:28 merlyn physically on the waterfront in ft lauderdale florida
15:29 TimToady I know the place...
15:29 merlyn I'm flying home tomorrow for two days, then down to burbank for two weeks, then up to palo alto for 10 days.
15:29 merlyn and this is the tail end of a 3 week trip already
15:29 merlyn so two days home out of seven weeks
15:31 TimToady so maybe role Handle is our official way to do explicit refcounting
15:34 TimToady maybe we're trying to get rid of the wrong thing here, and it's the "leave" that's the usual case
15:34 TimToady which would give us "will { .close }"
15:36 audreyt hm.
15:36 TimToady or throw out "will" and replace it with "leave", "keep", "undo" etc.
15:36 TimToady "leave {.close}"
15:37 audreyt still feels rather nonidiomatic compared to other languages with nondeterministic GC...
15:37 TimToady but I'm not sure this will be used often enough to warrant any default over "will leave {.close}"
15:37 audreyt filehandles surely?
15:37 TimToady yes, but most of most programs is processing lines, not opening files.
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15:38 audreyt fair enough...
15:38 TimToady I do realize that P5 programmers will balk at writing even that much...
15:39 TimToady maybe its -> Handle $h that is magically scoping
15:40 audreyt been thinking that, yes.
15:40 audreyt my Handle $h # too
15:40 TimToady FileHandle is also rather bulky
15:41 audreyt and all its subtypes
15:41 TimToady well, I guess IO is our shorthand
15:41 audreyt so thing that derives Handle is magically scoped when annotated as a constraint
15:41 TimToady it's almost turning into a monad...
15:41 audreyt for it to be a proper monad we still need this RealWorld type...
15:42 TimToady nah, that's just the prototypical monad
15:42 TimToady anything that doesn't behave programmatically can be a monad.  :)
15:42 audreyt that's very Leibnizian of you...
15:43 TimToady I often speak hyperbolically
15:43 TimToady no wait, that was the other L guy...
15:44 audreyt this L guy speaks in binary...
15:44 audreyt given sufficient reason, that is
15:44 allbery_b monads are just perl<6's magic :)
15:45 TimToady use perl5:Foo == thread the Foo module with the perl5 monad...
15:45 audreyt yay I finished slides sketch
15:45 TimToady audreyt++
15:46 TimToady speaking of which, why doesn't audreyt++.++ work?
15:46 audreyt I guess "Extensible Compilation" is a good enough description
15:46 audreyt better than "Malleable Compilation"
15:46 TimToady oh way, that's the value
15:46 TimToady nevermind
15:46 audreyt (for the metaprogramming support)
15:46 * audreyt ponders "Maimable Compilation"
15:47 TimToady Derivable languages
15:47 TimToady I keep picturing Perl 6 as the root of a big naming scheme for all languages.  :)
15:47 audreyt it's both the root and the top...
15:47 audreyt Root|Roof
15:48 TimToady use perl6://now/I/am/Python
15:48 Juerd use chameleon;
15:49 TimToady but I understand you are trying not to scare the audience too much :)
15:50 audreyt TimToady: so, if I'm to schedule a Mountain View hackathon, does July work for you? something like early Jul .. oscon
15:50 audreyt May or June is also possible, but that means two US trips for me (already submitted oscon)
15:50 TimToady I think so, have to check with my executive secretary to be sure
15:51 audreyt ok. I plan to stay longer this time
15:51 TimToady she sez it should be fine
15:51 audreyt will check with google folks to see if they have spare rooms in the 'plex
15:51 audreyt failing that, would need to find localhost
15:51 TimToady you would be most welcome at our humble adobe
15:52 TimToady it's probably closer to the googleplex than their accomodations
15:52 TimToady quite walkable, in fact
15:52 moritz btw is anybody coming to debconf7?
15:53 TimToady name it debcon7 and you'll get crackers coming by accident
15:53 audreyt TimToady: oh nice. 'plex may work better as hackathon space if we get more people joinging
15:53 moritz TimToady: I have no influence on the name ;(
15:54 audreyt but I've love staying at ::Larry -- hopefully I won't bore you to death :)
15:54 audreyt *I'd
15:55 TimToady look, our kids ranged from ADD to Asperger's...we're ready for anything
15:55 TimToady well, almost anything...
15:56 audreyt :) will keep you posted then
15:56 TimToady kewl
15:56 Juerd From ADD to PDD is more symmetrical ;)
15:56 * audreyt tries to get some sleep... bbl &
15:57 TimToady ah yes, my favorite diagnosis PDD-NOS
15:57 Juerd As opposed to the very tiny group of PDD-OS :P
15:57 TimToady "not otherwise specified"
15:57 Juerd Including PDD-Asperger.
15:57 Juerd Do they include "PDD" where you live?
15:57 Juerd Or is Asperger's seen as a thing by itself?
15:58 TimToady they didn't have Asperger in the Dmumble IV
15:58 TimToady PDD-NOS was the closest they had
15:58 Juerd DSM-IV
15:59 TimToady the DSM IV, sez my executive secretary
15:59 TimToady oh, that's that new one, which has it
15:59 TimToady Glo says III was just PDD-NOS
15:59 Juerd Yea. I was about to mention that the DSM IV *does* have both
16:00 TimToady well, nice that half of silicon valley is no longer "miscellaneous"
16:00 Juerd Hee :)
16:00 * Juerd got his share of the DSM spectrum too
16:01 TimToady can't say I haven't noticed.  :)
16:01 Juerd I'm sure you could ;)
16:01 Juerd (qed? :P)
16:02 TimToady laziness=PDD impatience=ADD ... hubris=profit!!!
16:03 Juerd PDD, ADD, HIQ. Common set.
16:04 TimToady actually, hubris is some form of narcissism, I expect
16:04 Juerd Intellectual narcissism, then.
16:04 Juerd I like the thought.
16:05 TimToady obviously we need to find some place where the normal psychotics can fit in.
16:05 Juerd I found out that my site is on the first google page if you search for "psycho test"
16:06 Juerd Because of a entirely non serious page inspired by Wolverian's image hacking in Pelr.
16:06 Juerd Perl
16:06 TimToady accumulating useless facts is one of the symptoms
16:07 Juerd Things that are useless to some, may be of great value to others :)
16:07 TimToady I've accumulated quite a wide variety of useless facts
16:07 Juerd Doesn't everyone do that?
16:08 TimToady yes, but they accumulate normal useless facts, not abnormal ones.
16:08 Juerd They just haven't discovered Wikipedia yet ;)
16:09 Juerd I all(hate, love) that site.
16:10 TimToady when I was young I read the entire World Book encyclopedia
16:11 Juerd Browsing through the huge three-shelves-occupying encyclopaedia at Grandpa's was why I liked visiting him so much.
16:12 Juerd Now that I have Wikipedia at my disposal, I like going there, for the old guy himself :)
16:15 devbot6 dev: WikiStart edited by cmarcelo <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/WikiStart>
16:16 svnbot6 r15245 | moritz++ | moved tests to the appropriate location
16:18 Juerd afk
16:23 devbot6 dev: Ticket #10 (task created): Rearrange t/ for reuse with multiple Perl 6 implementations. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/10>
16:25 devbot6 dev: Ticket #9 (enhancement closed): Make evalbot report the build failure when it happens. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/9#comment:1>
16:25 merlyn ...  rename t/{xx-uncategorized/pi_internals.t => builtins/math/pi_internals.t} (100%)
16:25 merlyn so says git-svn
16:27 devbot6 dev: Ticket #11 (task created): Remove all unconditional SKIP/TODO flags from t/. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/11>
16:27 moritz merlyn: http://dev.pugscode.org/changeset/14904 is a change of svnbot
16:27 lambdabot Title: Changeset 14904 - Pugs - Trac
16:28 moritz s/svnbot/evalbot/
16:28 merlyn why are you poiting that out to me
16:29 moritz merlyn: I understood something wrong ;)
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16:31 devbot6 dev: Ticket #10 (task updated): Rearrange t/ for reuse with multiple Perl 6 implementations. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/10#comment:1>
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16:33 devbot6 dev: Ticket #12 (task created): Tests directory scaling problem. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/12>
16:37 devbot6 dev: Ticket #13 (task created): Synchronize docs/ with current lang spec. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/13>
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16:40 devbot6 dev: Ticket #14 (enhancement created): More information in pugs -V output. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/14>
16:43 devbot6 dev: Ticket #15 (task created): Function aliases for math number rounding. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/15>
16:47 devbot6 dev: Ticket #16 (task created): Shortcut/script for easy Prelude regeneration. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/16>
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16:49 devbot6 dev: Ticket #17 (task created): Introspection interface. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/17>
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16:56 svnbot6 r15246 | cmarcelo++ | * Add messages on important project_planning/ files pointing to the
16:56 svnbot6 r15246 | cmarcelo++ |   Pugs Trac at http://dev.pugscode.org/
16:56 lambdabot Title: Pugs - Trac
17:03 devbot6 dev: Ticket #18 (task created): The Pugs Commentary. <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/18>
17:05 masak_ audreyt: the logo on http://dev.pugscode.org/query doesn't scale very well. please use this scaled 72x72 version instead: http://masak.org/carl/pugscode-small.png
17:05 lambdabot Title: Custom Query - Pugs - Trac
17:06 cmarcelo pp/TASKS is ported to new ticket system. I skipped that CruiseControl task since #1 looks like a replacement..
17:06 moritz cmarcelo++ ;)
17:07 masak_ is now known as masak
17:07 cmarcelo @tell putter See new ticket #18, maybe is an alternative to your idea to have an TALK page for each .hs file. Or maybe is complementary :)
17:07 lambdabot Consider it noted.
17:12 cmarcelo It would be nice to have a post on blog.pugscode.org telling the world about the new Trac, the Christmas Graph, and what happened in #perl6 / pugsland since November...
17:13 * cmarcelo wonders if putter has a blog bit... ;-)
17:15 audreyt masak: I'll fix the logo soon... maketicket for it? or even do one based on (say) aburlison's Perl6Mascot logo?
17:15 merlyn is "stevan working on MetalModel 2.0, based on MiniMetaModel"
17:15 merlyn is Metal there correct?
17:15 merlyn a cute joke?
17:16 merlyn a cross between Mental and Meta, perhaps?
17:16 merlyn or more forged?
17:16 audreyt it's typo.
17:17 moritz somtimes life is simple ;)
17:17 audreyt occam and all :)
17:18 merlyn ok
17:18 devbot6 dev: WikiStart edited by cmarcelo <http://dev.pugscode.org/wiki/WikiStart>
17:18 merlyn just wondering how many names I have to still learn. :)
17:19 merlyn I just looked at a_dependency_graph.dot
17:19 merlyn yeow
17:19 cmarcelo devbot6: you should be karma friendly... :P
17:19 devbot6 cmarcelo: Error: "you" is not a valid command.
17:19 merlyn "You is" is not proper english. :)
17:19 merlyn you ain't no proper command!
17:19 cmarcelo hehe
17:20 merlyn my momma done told me 'bout creepy bots like you!
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17:43 masak audreyt: ticket submitted
17:45 devbot6 dev: Ticket #19 (task created): Replace current logo with a correctly scaled version <http://dev.pugscode.org/ticket/19>
18:20 svnbot6 r15247 | lwall++ | contextualizers, subcalls, listops including post-declared, 1st <suppose...>
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18:44 araujo shay|p6, :-)
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19:18 shay araujo, bro, cómo estás?
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21:50 akesson hey
21:50 TimToady hey, hey
21:51 avar joined perl6
21:52 akesson about perlembed, is the the linking dynamic or static against the perl interpreter?
21:52 TimToady usually dynamic, can be static
21:52 akesson we are trying to do some cool stuff here :)
21:53 TimToady where is "here"?
21:53 akesson sweden ;)
21:53 TimToady that would have been my guess, considering your address ends .se
21:53 akesson clever
21:53 akesson :)
21:54 akesson and yea, what is DynaLoader.a ?
21:54 TimToady basically, the difference between miniperl and perl
21:54 akesson so, how to make it dynamic?
21:55 TimToady just need to make sure it builds a .so on most Unixy systems
21:55 TimToady I believe it's a Configure option
21:55 akesson hmm
21:55 akesson ok
21:56 TimToady I note that fedora comes with /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.5/i386-linux-thread-multi/CORE/libperl.so
21:56 TimToady which perl
21:57 TimToady and that's what /usr/bin/perl links against
21:57 akesson so, dynamic is the default?
21:57 TimToady /usr/bin/perl itself being a 14k program.  :)
21:58 akesson thats great!
21:58 moritz du `which perl`
21:58 moritz 1.1M    /usr/bin/perl
21:58 moritz so it's different on debian ;)
21:59 TimToady basically look in perlmain.c to see how perl embeds itself to make the ordinary perl executable.
22:00 akesson we are gonna do code in Perl as some kind of plugin for a C program.
22:00 akesson so, C program runs the Perl code
22:01 akesson pretty nifty
22:01 TimToady is certainly doable
22:02 * akesson is __Ace__ btw :)
22:02 TimToady ah
22:02 akesson not at home atm so.. :)
22:02 TimToady thought it looked a little familiar
22:02 akesson hehe
22:02 akesson ok, gonna eat now... laters
22:02 akesson my buddy says hello
22:03 TimToady hello, buddy!
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23:15 akesson anyone here that has ideas on how to solve nameconflicts when it comes to filesystems?
23:15 akesson besides numbering
23:17 moritz timestamps, hashes
23:17 moritz akesson: or what are you aiming at?
23:17 moritz akesson: and what's bad about numbers?
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23:18 akesson we are not against numbers.. just wanna see other alternatives
23:18 akesson hashes doesnt solve it btw
23:19 moritz rand() ;)
23:19 akesson :D
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