Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-02-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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01:25 TimToady audreyt: was shocked will reading the events/threads paper at http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~lipeng/homepage/unify.html to find a diagram of my sandwich parser in the middle.  only they'd mislabelled the top-down parser as "threads", the token parser as "events", and the opaque operator precedence parser in the middle as "scheduler".  :)
01:25 lambdabot Title: Unifying events and threads
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01:26 Juerd Heh
01:26 TimToady s/will/while/
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01:56 pasteling "cmarcelo" at 200.232.236.201 pasted "build failure, missing instances?" (150 lines, 6.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/22920
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03:45 audreyt @tell cmarcelo fixed thanks
03:45 lambdabot Consider it noted.
03:50 svnbot6 r15248 | audreyt++ | * Work around DrIFT's inability to deal with parallel array notation.
03:50 svnbot6 r15248 | audreyt++ |   cmarcelo++ for reporting it.
03:51 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
03:51 audreyt TimToady: as you have observed yourself in the Impossible Talk, it's but one instance of the universal trinity diagram...
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04:42 avar audreyt: do you know how to get %^H at the xs level?
04:42 audreyt PL_hints surely?
04:43 avar didn't know of that, I was trying to get_hv("^H"
04:44 audreyt ah. no.
04:44 avar PL_hints is $^H no?
04:45 audreyt wait... what are you going to do?
04:45 audreyt PL_compiling.cop_hints_hash ?
04:46 TimToady interestingly, parrot also wants to be async underneath.
04:46 audreyt the "get a hint" idiom is
04:46 audreyt Perl_refcounted_he_fetch(aTHX_ PL_compiling.cop_hints_hash, 0, "open", 4, 0, 0)
04:46 audreyt TimToady: yeah, but events are perthread least I heard
04:46 avar lexical imports in re::engine::Plugin don't work because I don't use %^H for sub callback lookup yet
04:46 avar peeking at cop_hints_vars
04:47 TimToady well, at least they profess to want continuations
04:48 TimToady and we can probably emulate the whole lower layer with a single event-driven thread, I expect
04:48 TimToady though perhaps not get multi-cpu benefit there
04:49 TimToady well, that's for later
04:49 audreyt yup.
04:49 TimToady and hopefully someone else.  :)
04:49 audreyt so do you think it's sane to simply have
04:49 audreyt async {} # share everything in scope
04:50 audreyt fork {} # share nothing in scope
04:50 audreyt (except for those marked "is shared")
04:50 audreyt ?
04:50 TimToady and ==> implies fork?
04:50 audreyt which ==> is that?
04:50 TimToady feed operators / pipes
04:51 audreyt I thought ==> carries no parallelism promises
04:51 TimToady the forgotten 3rd member of the parallism triumvirate
04:51 TimToady it's a pipe
04:51 audreyt I thought
04:51 audreyt @data ==> grep {...};
04:51 lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
04:51 audreyt is just sugar for
04:51 audreyt grep {...}, @data
04:52 audreyt and has no special parallelism semantics
04:52 audreyt oh that changed.
04:52 audreyt ok, hm.
04:53 TimToady S06:848
04:53 TimToady ==> and <== now delimit statements
04:53 audreyt I think it's erlangish enough that we want share nothing.
04:54 audreyt i.e. process parallelism, not threaded parallelism
04:54 audreyt conceptually, unix pipes
04:54 TimToady Cell arch
04:54 audreyt yeah.
04:54 audreyt if so then maybe fork{} is not needed
04:54 audreyt fork() can just remain os-level fork
04:54 audreyt "heavyweight fork"
04:55 TimToady I think it would be confusing to use fork for internal
04:55 TimToady for the Unixheads
04:55 audreyt aye aye.
04:55 TimToady Q: one end or the other of ==> is rooted in the current space
04:55 TimToady maybe both in certain circumstances?
04:55 avar audreyt: http://sial.org/pbot/22922 <- this is what I'm trying to do
04:55 lambdabot Title: Paste #22922 from Someone at 85.197.228.236
04:55 audreyt current space is consumer
04:56 audreyt that's standard I think
04:56 TimToady but you'd kind like to loop it
04:56 audreyt example?
04:56 TimToady maybe as long as you feed it something lazy
04:56 avar I'e getting a HV* for %^H in XS for re::engine::Plugin lexical import
04:56 TimToady 1..* ==> filter ==> @result
04:56 audreyt TimToady: lazy structures does that implicitly
04:56 audreyt it's called, I believe, fusion
04:57 audreyt so the filter cannot write to result?
04:57 TimToady anyway, I'm tired of answering the question of why we can't have two-ended pipelines
04:58 TimToady no, I'd like to feed it from my current space and retrieve the result back.
04:58 TimToady as long as it's all "pull" semantics, should be okay, I think
04:58 TimToady and as long as the user promises
04:58 audreyt my @result; 1..* ==> grep { @result.push(...); ... } ==> @result;
04:58 TimToady that the feeder doesn't depend on the result
04:58 audreyt what's the semantic here?
04:58 audreyt the .push is noop?
04:58 audreyt or rather, process-local?
04:58 audreyt that is, doesn't affect the @result at the end?
04:59 TimToady not sure what's sane there, but I'm not against enforcing some discipline on ==> if necessary
04:59 audreyt I think anything it closes over gets cloned
04:59 audreyt and it remains local absolutely
04:59 audreyt aka erlang
04:59 audreyt only sane model I'm aware of
05:00 TimToady well, let's plan to stay sane
05:00 avar audreyt: http://simnet.is/boaesd/re-engine-Plugin-0.01.tar.gz # if you want to take a look
05:00 TimToady can maybe loosen up later
05:00 audreyt it also means we don't get those ithread pains
05:00 audreyt since the amount of freevar is encouraged to be small
05:00 audreyt OUTER var that is
05:00 audreyt and as long as it's small there's no cost
05:00 avar audreyt: the up-to-date example is t/methods.t. But It's not cpan-ready until I can at least get lexical imports to work
05:01 avar I'm not exepecting an answer back to these mublings b.t.w:)
05:01 TimToady ==> stuff is more for event layer than for thread layer
05:01 audreyt sure, which is why explicit sharing is good
05:01 * avar sleep &
05:02 audreyt we can get as far as saying you need to explicitly lexicalize package globals
05:02 audreyt ==> grep { our $PkgVar; ... } ==> ...
05:02 audreyt otherwise you don't get to see $PkgVar
05:02 audreyt (because otherwise we always need to clone the stash)
05:03 TimToady sounds about right
05:03 audreyt symtable that is
05:03 TimToady don't mind another real use for "our" either.  :)
05:03 audreyt heh, I use our all the time... even in p5
05:03 audreyt in places where "use vars" won't work
05:04 TimToady I use it where "use vars" would work.  :)
05:04 audreyt s/in/even in/
05:04 TimToady but the p5er's continually carp about it
05:04 TimToady "what does it do that 'use vars' doesn't do?"...
05:05 audreyt well p5 has this sublanguage in it (p4) that hates lexical scoping...
05:06 TimToady there's still a bit of it in P6 too. O_o
05:06 TimToady see "temp"...
05:06 TimToady but I'm hoping 'is context' helps get away from that.
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05:07 TimToady I suppose a thread sees the context vars in its spawning scope...
05:08 audreyt I thought temp doesn't hate lexicals
05:08 audreyt it's orthogonal
05:08 audreyt unlike in p5
05:08 TimToady well, but people will use it on globals
05:08 TimToady and they'll think globals are all you can use it on.
05:09 TimToady anyway temp is much more problematic when multiple threads are trying to do it
05:11 TimToady so there's probably gotta be some restriction on temporizing things outside your current thread's storage, or some way of only letting one thread manage any global location.
05:11 TimToady heh, one could almost turn temporization into the locking mechanism.
05:11 TimToady assuming one needed a locking mechanism.
05:12 TimToady hmm, can't temp a global outside a contend {}, maybe.
05:12 TimToady but that'll really screw up the P4 programmers...
05:14 audreyt well p4 has nothing like async{}
05:14 audreyt and I'd be fine if temp in async setting is _always_ transactional
05:15 TimToady and let, of course.
05:15 audreyt yes.
05:15 TimToady I think it makes sense
05:15 audreyt TMVar, in GHC parlance
05:15 audreyt (transactional mutex)
05:15 audreyt since otherwise we can't reason about multiple dynamic scopes
05:15 TimToady so it really is more like "suppose $x = 2"
05:15 audreyt large bookkeepping overhead
05:16 audreyt but they deserve it.
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05:17 audreyt luqui: greetings!
05:17 luqui hello audreyt
05:17 TimToady luqui: sorry, we just ran out of interesting topics.  :)
05:17 audreyt actually I should get moving
05:17 luqui heh
05:17 audreyt ==> @parents
05:17 audreyt bbl
05:18 TimToady have the appropriate amount of fun
05:18 audreyt TimToady: would be nice to augment the S to say ==> clones closeover and you can't depend on any sharing _at all_
05:18 audreyt unless, of course, explicitly marked "is shared", not unlike liz's forks.pm
05:18 TimToady k
05:19 TimToady luqui: how are you doin'?
05:20 luqui bit sick
05:20 TimToady lotta that stuff going around
05:20 luqui also got a job...
05:20 TimToady not as a garbage collector, I presume
05:21 luqui no, but I applied for a job as one ('s author), didn't get it though
05:21 TimToady if that's the one the reference was for, they never asked...
05:22 luqui that was the one I wanted.  I suppose I should count my blessings; working on a C++ compiler might not be as much fun as I thought.  I mean, it's C++...
05:22 luqui The reference just went on my resume.  Even if they never asked, I'm pretty sure it helped.
05:22 TimToady dunno, they might have seen my name and puked
05:22 luqui (hmm, no bachelors degree, but he's actually done something, unlike these other candidates)
05:23 luqui heh, maybe.  I wouldn't be surprised if a C++ shop were full of zealots...
05:23 luqui anyway
05:25 luqui I like ruby sometimes, not others
05:25 * luqui is struggling to do an Easy thing at the moment
05:26 TimToady would it be easy in P5?
05:27 TimToady or P6, for that matter?
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05:37 meppl gute nacht
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07:58 wolverian Juerd, the psycho test page doesn't come up on the first page on .fi google :(
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10:30 Pat__ hello
10:31 moritz hi Pat__
10:34 Pat__ so what interresting/fun stuff happening in perl6 these days ?
10:34 Pat__ I have been out of touch for a couple of years and just thought I'd catch up :-) Just for kicks.
10:35 moritz well, we can compile to javscript ;)
10:35 moritz javascript
10:36 moritz and pugs passes >95% of the test suite (but that number *might* be misleading)
10:36 Pat__ heheh yea I guess the 95% easy part is done
10:37 Pat__ now the 5% hard part is left :-)
10:37 moritz ?eval [+] (1 .. 10)
10:37 evalbot_r15241 is now known as evalbot_r15248
10:37 evalbot_r15248 55
10:37 moritz some cool operators work ;)
10:37 Pat__ but about compiling to javascript where can i read more about it ... and playa little bit ?
10:38 * Pat__ bows ot the eval bot :-)
10:38 moritz you can play at http://run.pugscode.org/
10:38 lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
10:38 moritz and read... well... there is svn repository ;)
10:39 moritz Pat__: but honestly, Im the wrong person to ask... I only joined the project a week ago
10:39 moritz Pat__: and I didnt write a single line of code, just test cases, docs etc.
10:39 Pat__ heheheh well I did not specify english so I guess the svn repo is a fair answer :p
10:40 Pat__ hey no problem, I'm just here to chat
10:40 Pat__ no life saving decisions envolving perl6 (yet)
10:40 TimToady joined perl6
10:40 Pat__ so thatks for your help
10:40 moritz ok, maybe somebody else can give you a more accurate summary
10:40 moritz np :)
10:41 * moritz is bored because my only HD died today, and all I can do is chat (booted from knoppix)
10:42 Pat__ heheh Everyone else seem so busy rushing perl6 out so door ;-) I don't want to bother anyoen :-)
10:42 moritz you exagerate... nearly everybody fancies a half-technical chat now or then ;)
10:43 Pat__ well things is I had almost forgotten about perl6 ... thinking well it'll be ready when it'll be ready
10:44 Pat__ but then I just happened to read this http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/02/next-big-language.html
10:44 lambdabot Title: Stevey's Blog Rants: The Next Big Language
10:44 Pat__ and thought ... hey could it be perl 6
10:45 Pat__ and here I am enquiring about the state of the perl6 union.
10:46 moritz well, it is active and progressing (I think thats important ;)
10:47 moritz and of course it will be *so* cool once it is finished ;))
10:48 Pat__ It is already too cool and it is far from being finished :-)
10:50 moritz but hey, it will be finished `til christmas ;)
10:50 moritz (because when it`s finished, every day is x-mas ;)
10:50 Pat__ hahahaha
10:51 moritz not my idea dude ;)
10:52 moritz I have to go and get my laundry, brb
10:52 Pat__ ok thanks fo rthe pointer ... I'll be playing around with the javascript thingy. Bye
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11:11 Juerd wolverian: It does on the .com and .nl
11:12 Juerd wolverian: Maybe there are too many .fi psycho tests. What a country! ;)
11:14 moritz or there are to many .fi psychos *eg*
11:15 moritz ;)
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11:18 Juerd I tried to imply that :)
11:20 moritz after all HUMPPA! music comes from .fi, and Star Wreck and other cool but crazy stuff ;)
11:21 wolverian humppa :(
11:23 moritz wolverian: uc "humppa", I guess it's case sensitive ;)
11:25 Juerd There was someone in #perl yesterday who claimed they were parsing XML with regexes because their XML was... case insensitive.
11:25 Juerd Needless to say, this person eventually ended up on my ignore list.
11:27 moritz ;)
11:31 mugwump http://xrl.us/casesensitive
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11:47 wolverian Juerd, the page has been spammed, btw :)
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11:59 amosrobinson hiya
12:00 moritz hi
12:01 amosrobinson how's it all going?
12:02 moritz my harddisk is dying... but that's probaply not what you wanted to hear ;)
12:03 amosrobinson eek
12:03 amosrobinson well that's OK, I'm partial to spreading bad news myself
12:04 moritz d'oh
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12:06 Juerd wolverian: Severely. I try not to care :)
12:12 amosrobinson I suppose, in backthought, that trying to understand the grammar while drunk is a bad idea
12:13 Juerd Is there anyone who plans to go to the German Perl Workshop this year?
12:13 Juerd 'cause Mark Lehmann needs to be reminded of his promise to put the presentation "Was stimmt mit Parrot und Perl 6 nicht?" online :)
12:13 moritz where and when is it?
12:13 Juerd ("What's wrong with Parrot and Perl 6?")
12:13 moritz I'm back in Germany from july on...
12:14 Juerd moritz: Muenchen, 21, 22, 23 feb.
12:14 moritz Juerd: thanks, damn
12:19 Juerd Hm
12:19 Juerd I might be able to go there myself
12:19 Juerd $client has paid their invoice now
12:19 Juerd (Unexpectedly)
12:20 Juerd rafl: Where are you staying sleep-wise during the GPW?
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12:27 ludan ola
12:29 Juerd Hi
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15:20 TimToady Just got a note from audreyt++ that she is hospitalized with serious hepatitis.
15:21 Juerd Damn.
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15:25 rafl Juerd: youth hostel muenchen neuhausen
15:26 Juerd rafl: There's a small chance I'll join you :)
15:26 rafl Juerd: cool!
15:26 rafl How about fosdem?
15:26 Juerd rafl: I plan on going to fosdem only the second day
15:26 Juerd My office is rewired the 24th
15:26 Juerd That also means that if I'm going to the GPW, I have to leave during day 3
15:27 Juerd And drive 10 hours.
15:27 rafl ok
15:28 Juerd "There are no parking facillities directly in the youth hostel grounds, however there are a number of free parking possibilities in the direct vacinity of the youth hostel."
15:28 Juerd Hmm
15:28 Juerd I wonder how direct that is :)
15:29 b_jonas TimToady: that sounds bad
15:29 Juerd rafl: Do they have wifi at that hostel?
15:30 * rafl checks
15:31 rafl Juerd: their website says: "internet access nearby", so I guess they don't have wifi
15:31 Juerd Darn
15:31 Juerd That'd mean I have to do all work stuff from the workshop venue
15:32 Juerd Why did you pick this hostel? :)
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15:35 Juerd Oh, it seems to be close to the venue
15:38 Juerd Hm, € 30 per night :(
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15:55 Patterner I plan to go to the GPW, but as long as I don't have a confirmation I won't book flights and hotel...
15:56 Juerd rafl: There are hostels that charge half that amount, and provide free wifi and breakfast...
15:57 Juerd Patterner: Where would you be flying from?
15:57 Patterner Juerd: Hamburg
15:57 Juerd Patterner: No car?
15:57 Patterner Nope. Flying is cheaper and faster.
15:58 Juerd I looked at flying options. For me it would be faster, but much more expensive.
15:58 Juerd And it has the cost of inflexibility.
15:58 rafl Juerd: oh no.. I didn't search for a hostel myself. My co-travelers did.. :-(
15:58 Juerd Driving there and back again would cost me approx 80 € for fuel.
15:58 Juerd rafl: Have you already booked?
15:59 rafl Juerd: yes
15:59 Juerd rafl: Can you still cancel? :)
15:59 Patterner 80-100 Euro for both flights... 1 hour flying time :)
15:59 rafl Juerd: I think so..
16:00 Juerd rafl: Talk to your cotravelers then :)
16:00 Juerd http://www.hostelworld.com/availability.php/JaegersHostel-Munich-4274
16:00 rafl Juerd: will do :-)
16:00 Patterner Bring a whip :)
16:00 Juerd http://www.hostelworld.com/availability.php/WombatsCityHostel-Munich-8249
16:01 Juerd Patterner: "free wifi in lobby" should suffice :)
16:01 Juerd As should "half the price"
16:01 Juerd And it's not that much further away from the venue
16:03 Juerd And it's closer to the Hackerbruecke. Hacker bridges are always good.
16:04 Juerd http://maps.google.nl/maps?f=d&amp;hl=nl&amp;saddr=senefelderstrasse+3,+muenchen&amp;daddr=lothstrasse+34,+muenchen&amp;sll=48.146274,11.55736&amp;sspn=0.026802,0.058365&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;z=14&amp;ll=48.147019,11.557016&amp;spn=0.026801,0.058365&amp;om=1
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16:08 Juerd Some negative comments about the paid-for internet access, weird.
16:10 Juerd http://www.hostelworld.com/availability.php/WombatsCityHostel-Munich-8249  # better ratings
16:10 Juerd Same street :)
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17:43 svnbot6 r15249 | kudra++ | Added a note about fetching posts
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18:03 putter :(
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18:07 putter audreyt:  O   O
18:07 putter audreyt: O@O O@O
18:07 putter audreyt:  O\/ O
18:08 putter audreyt:  \//   Get well soon.
18:08 putter (fixed with font required)
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18:42 nothingmuch yo yo yo homies yo
18:42 * nothingmuch actually saw some OGs at the train station
18:42 nothingmuch note to self: get timberland boots and an ugly biege parka
18:42 dmq and a gun?
18:43 nothingmuch no, my assignment is simply to know how to be an OG
18:43 nothingmuch not to go around OGing people
18:43 poland_ is now known as poland
18:43 nothingmuch (also, sardonic tone was lacking from that comment-- those gangsta's looked anything but original ;-)
18:44 dmq heh
18:44 nothingmuch my first thought on seeing the second one was "is that a different coat?" and then i realized it's a different human altogether
18:45 dmq "human" :-)
18:45 nothingmuch freud might have something to say about why I dind't think of using "person' ;-)
18:45 dmq might?
18:45 nothingmuch well, he's dead now
18:46 dmq ah, that type of might. :-)
18:51 nothingmuch hehe, i stole his ethernet ;-)
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19:00 avar yawn
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19:08 nothingmuch avar: for the past week or so dipsy has kept claiming we are one... how do you feel about this? ;-)
19:10 avar nothingmuch: o/~ we must never be apart o/~
19:11 dmq . o ( an interesting solution to "there can only be one")
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19:45 putter is there any p5 construct which can take multiple statements and grab the value of the last (eg, do{...})  _without_ introducing a lexical scope?
19:46 putter actually, what really matters is 'without introducing a scope for an local()s among the statements'.
19:46 putter s/an/any
19:54 putter sigh.  in p6, this will be a small macro.  in p5...
19:55 * putter goes to explore cpan modules for something which pretends to parse p5
19:55 putter suggestions most welcome
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20:35 Khisanth putter: PPI?
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21:23 putter Khisanth: thanks. :)  yes, that looks like the best option.
21:23 lambdabot putter: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
21:25 putter unfortunately it looks hairy to do right, and PPI is testfailing on my platform... I'm not sure it's on the critical path so I'm punting for now.
21:25 putter thanks again
21:27 prism killing http://72.20.26.1:8088 from streaming, as its adding load to the streamer, use http://alchemy.occult-oracle.net:8088 instead
21:29 putter topic
21:30 putter changes topic to: svn switch --relocate http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | dev.pugscode.org
21:31 putter changes topic to: svn switch --relocate http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs http://svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | http://dev.pugscode.org/
21:33 putter audreyt: re wikirename, ah, sorry.  I guess I misread the trac ticket suggesting it was still pending.  Perhaps only for non-admins.
21:36 putter @tell cmarcelo A Commentary is indeed a better alternative to having a TALK associated with particular .hs files.  Agreed. :)
21:36 lambdabot Consider it noted.
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22:06 GeJ Morning lambdamøøses
22:06 GeJ rgs: hey theyre :)
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22:07 GeJ morning stevan_
22:08 stevan_ $localtime GeJ
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22:30 cmarcelo_ is now known as cmarcelo
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23:46 coke is now known as Coke
23:47 Coke random
23:48 moritz ?eval rand()
23:48 evalbot_r15248 is now known as evalbot_r15249
23:48 evalbot_r15249 0.3501304171164824
23:48 moritz ;)

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