Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2007-02-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 TimToady and the easiest way to implement it is by really doing a lookbehind.  but that implies reversing the pattern
00:00 dmq especially when you already have nfrastructure in place to do a BM for 'bar' it should really look for 'foobar' as it mean BM can go faster
00:00 dmq well japhy's \K sorts it somewhat.
00:01 dmq iow: /foo\Kbar/
00:01 TimToady what does that do?
00:01 dmq it updates starp[0] to be the current position.
00:02 dmq so you can do variable length lookbehind using it
00:03 CardinalNumber is now known as ProperNoun
00:03 dmq for instance /(?:fnorble)*\Kbar/ is the equivelent of /(?<=(fnorble)*)bar/
00:04 dmq its useful for things like s/foo\kbar/baz/;
00:04 dmq about 10 times faster than s/(foo)bar/${1}baz/
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00:05 TimToady okay, it's equiv to <( in P6
00:05 TimToady do you have an equiv for )> as well?
00:05 dmq http://search.cpan.org/~piny​an/Regexp-Keep-0.02/Keep.pm
00:05 lambdabot Title: Regexp::Keep - filter to allow the \K escape in regexes - search.cpan.org
00:08 dmq well japhy talked about a \F for "forsake" which  might be )>
00:08 dmq but i didnt do it.
00:09 dmq well i tried, but it caused all kinds of problems and since lookahead allows variable width i thought it was no loss.
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00:10 dduncan TimToady, regarding the list of data types in Synopsis 2, there seem to be a number of supporting types missing from the list, but I would think that logically they should be formally shown there
00:10 TimToady it should be just as easy to set the end position as the start position in terms of internals.   It's just an implicit capture, more or less.
00:10 dduncan for one thing, the data type that represents the length of a Str
00:10 dmq japhys original patch: http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lis​ts/perl5-porters/2002-07/msg01380.html
00:10 lambdabot Title: Forwarded attachment..., http://tinyurl.com/2xbpbn
00:10 dduncan for another, the data type that represents an Order (it has 3 values, afaik)
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00:11 dduncan such as those should be in the Immutable types list
00:11 dmq timtoady: there were all kinds of hairy interactions with pos, and s/// and stuff that i decided i didnt want to spend more time on it than i did.
00:11 dduncan the length of a Str isn't an Int, and I recall you said you had a special type for it, called Length or something
00:11 dduncan or Str::Length
00:11 TimToady StrLen I think
00:12 TimToady and StrPos
00:12 TimToady you get a StrLen when you subtract two StrPos
00:12 dduncan yes ... such as these should be in the types list
00:12 dduncan formally
00:12 TimToady even informally in the types list would be an improvement.  :)
00:12 dduncan yes
00:12 dduncan and Order too, or whatever its called
00:13 TimToady Ordering, or Ordered, or some such
00:13 dduncan that <=> returns
00:13 dduncan yes
00:13 TimToady yeah, the enum
00:13 TimToady and the role that goes with
00:13 TimToady probably need to start a separate list for standard roles
00:14 dduncan good idea
00:14 TimToady though a goodly number of the builtin types are class/role puns to begin with, I suspect.
00:15 dduncan but they should still all be listed in one place for reference
00:15 TimToady well, eventually you run into the fuzzy boundary between standard and pretty nearly almost standard
00:16 dmq btw timtoady you can do crazy stuff like /(foo|\Kbar)*/
00:16 dduncan on a tangent, at one point some of your examples showed data types for representing one byte and one character respectively ... I can see that having a Char etc type would be useless, but are both of those now gone?
00:16 TimToady that's just / ( foo | <( bar )* / in P6
00:17 TimToady <( and )> aren't actually required to balance
00:17 dmq oh, i didnt realize /that/
00:17 dmq nice.
00:17 TimToady mind, it'll confuse the heck out of your syntax highligher... :/
00:17 dmq yes, then \K is <(, but )> is the \F i couldnt get working. sorry.
00:18 TimToady I do think the relationship between <( and )> is a bit more apparent.  :)
00:18 dmq yeah well.
00:18 dmq :-)
00:18 TimToady maybe you should just implement a /p6 option.  :)
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00:19 TimToady just like P6 has a :P5 option.
00:19 demq well its sorta possible via a plugin engine.
00:19 demq i believe thats what avar is working on
00:20 demq but modifiers are evil.
00:20 TimToady then (?P6)  :)
00:20 demq i changed the order of the modifiers generated when stringifying a regex and all hell broke loose.
00:20 demq maybe (+....)
00:20 demq :-)
00:21 avar demq: If I ever sort out my stupid bugs:)
00:21 avar dmq++ made some changes which makes thing easy, wee:)
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00:22 demq oh, dont do $^H{regcomp}=0
00:22 demq delete the key.
00:24 demq r->extflags = pm->op_pmflags; /* the hell is this? ==>  & RXf_PMf_COMPILETIME;*/
00:24 demq lol
00:24 avar haha
00:24 avar it was something that was in PCRE which I started out ripping off
00:25 avar I have found that it server no useful function in my case:)
00:25 demq ok, look, in re->extflags you can only use RXf_FLAGS
00:26 demq but 5 bits of extflags are shared with the PMOP so have the prefix: RXf_PMf_
00:26 demq and have PMf_ equivelents too.
00:26 demq and this is the perl6 channel.
00:26 demq whoops.
00:27 avar heh:)
00:27 * demq bops over to #p5p so as not to bore anybody
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00:34 Limbic_Region heh
00:35 dduncan TimToady, it occurs to me that with things like StrPos and StrLen, it may not be possible to treat them as normal data types, as values of normal types have meaning in isolation, but it occurs to me that StrPos and StrLen may only have meaning in the context of a particular Str value ... eg, a StrPos or StrLen may only make sense for a specific sequence of graphemes or codepoints or whatever
00:35 dduncan if so, then StrLen|StrPos is more like a reference type, that points to a container specifically
00:36 dduncan except that StrLen|StrPos will work with any appearance of the same Str value
00:38 dduncan I say this because, unlike units like of spacial length or time or temperature or velocity etc in standard contexts, where differing units can be converted between each other at a fixed ratio, the ratio of eg graphemes to codepoints isn't fixed, and depends on what specific graphemes or chars there are
00:40 dduncan on the other hand, if StrLen or StrPos simply means "a length in graphemes OR a length in codepoints etc", then that probably would work as a normal data type
00:40 dduncan such that StrPos then is simply a disjunction type
00:42 dduncan is that how it is?
00:44 dduncan In any event, I suggest you specifically say whether StrLen|StrPos is such a disjunctive type, which has meaning in isolation, or whether it just has meaning in context of a Str because the graphemes|codepoints are just projected views of the internal value
00:45 dduncan thank you
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01:04 dduncan say in the documentation that is
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01:39 svnbot6 r15272 | lwall++ | added cross metaoperator
01:39 svnbot6 r15272 | lwall++ | random cleanup
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03:10 REPLeffect Anyone else read this regexp article?  http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
03:11 tene REPLeffect: ask me again in five minutes.
03:11 tene ;)
03:11 REPLeffect hehe
03:11 REPLeffect I'd be particularly interested to hear TimToady's take.
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03:16 TimToady already gave my opinion on PM
03:17 TimToady bbl &
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03:22 REPLeffect_ Forgive my ignorance. (and my poor connection)....
03:23 REPLeffect_ ... What is the PM TimToady referered to.
03:23 REPLeffect_ "already gave my opinion on PM"
03:24 REPLeffect_ Previous messages?
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03:45 xdg REPLeffect: PM is probably Perl Monks
03:47 xdg REPLeffect: http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=597262
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03:50 REPLeffect Thanks, xdg.
03:51 REPLeffect So, tene, you read that article yet?  :-)
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05:47 brad__ hi
05:48 PerlJam hello
05:48 brad__ just lurking hoping to pick up some amusing info on perl6
05:48 brad__ and maybe chat with some perl6 luminaries
05:49 brad__ or is it just us?
05:49 nothingmuch so this one time a cabal member walked into a bar
05:49 nothingmuch and the bartender asked "do you have a commit bit?"
05:49 nothingmuch along those lines?
05:50 brad__ sure, pass the pretzels
05:50 brad__ will perl6 support any concept of lazy evaluation?
05:50 nothingmuch yes
05:50 brad__ interesting
05:50 nothingmuch my $var = lazy { moose() };
05:50 nothingmuch for scsalars
05:50 nothingmuch lists are lazy by default
05:51 PerlJam brad__: perl6 is all about the lazy
05:51 nothingmuch you can unlazify lists, see s04 i think
05:51 brad__ would love to see lots of haskell goodness in perl6
05:51 brad__ i like haskell but am sorta hardwired into perl after many years
05:51 nothingmuch http://dev.perl.org/perl6/do​c/design/syn/S02.html#Lists
05:51 PerlJam brad__: same here.
05:51 lambdabot Title: Synopsis 2: Bits and Pieces - perl6:
05:52 brad__ well lambdabot is here, so i know haskell is influencing!
05:52 PerlJam I tried haskell for a while in the early days of pugs, but I quickly slipped back to my perlian roots
05:53 brad__ i am still trying to make a go of it in haskell
05:53 nothingmuch good nicht
05:53 brad__ immature libraries are an issue...we take things like dbi for granted
05:53 PerlJam gut Nacht
05:53 PerlJam :-)
05:53 nothingmuch @google antibuddha
05:53 brad__ bye
05:53 lambdabot http://urchin.earth.li/darcs/antibuddha/
05:53 lambdabot Title: Index of /darcs/antibuddha
05:53 PerlJam brad__: you mean for perl6?
05:54 PerlJam brad__: or are you still talking about haskell?
05:54 brad__ well i meant the lack of a good stable database interface in haskell
05:54 brad__ there a like three, all sorta beta quality
05:54 nothingmuch oops, good *night*
05:54 PerlJam create a perl linkage and borrow DBI then
05:55 nothingmuch i didn't realize my silly typo, thanks PerlJam ;-)
05:55 nothingmuch anyway, ciao guys
05:55 brad__ bye
05:55 PerlJam later nothingmuch (have a nice sleep (or whatever you do at night :-))
05:56 nothingmuch excercise now
05:56 nothingmuch shower soon
05:56 nothingmuch sleep after
05:56 PerlJam brad__: pugs is full of code that knows how to deal with perl5 or parrot or other stuff so that pugs can use them natively.  If it's good enough for pugs, that same technique can be used with "ordinary" haskell
05:57 brad__ i suppose
05:57 brad__ i haven't played with pugs for so long
05:57 brad__ i wonder if there will ever be another release
05:57 brad__ or if it has come time to focus on perl6 on parrot
05:58 brad__ not that these efforts are mutually exclusive
05:58 brad__ i desperately want to be able to download a perl6-0.0.1.ta.gz
05:58 PerlJam Well ... given that Larry has been writing the perl 6 grammar in perl 6, we'll kind of need something that can do something useful with it if we're to bootstrap ourselves to a "real" perl 6
05:59 PerlJam whether that's pugs or parrot or something else entirely, who knows?
05:59 brad__ hopefully that will resolve itself in 2007
06:00 brad__ well its too late for "something else entirely", i presume that parrot is the deal
06:00 brad__ is larry ever in here? i would like to virtually meet him one day
06:00 PerlJam I'm expecting a useful perl6-on-parrot this year and a useful-for-ordinary-people perl6-on-parrot next year.
06:01 brad__ well that is great news
06:01 brad__ i will definitely jump on anything that gets released
06:01 PerlJam brad__: larry is usually here during US Pacific day time
06:01 brad__ ah, well i should try during the day
06:02 PerlJam And what makes you think it's too late for "something else"?
06:02 brad__ well, just inertia. while people say "something else" is possible, no one really seems to be venturing out in a new direction (or are they?)
06:02 PerlJam pugs came together rather quickly from near nothing.  Someone else could do that again :)
06:03 brad__ and since parrot seems viable, i am not entirely sure what the point would be
06:03 brad__ not that there has to be a "point"
06:03 PerlJam I'm still betting on parrot fwiw :)
06:03 brad__ whatever happened to audrey? i used to see lots of posts and presentations and such
06:03 brad__ then nothing
06:04 brad__ not that she is on a schedule to amuse us
06:04 PerlJam I don't know ... I've been mostly out of things for several months myself.
06:05 brad__ are you a perl luminary hiding behind an irc name?
06:05 PerlJam nope, just a long-time perl user.
06:05 brad__ me too
06:05 brad__ about eleven years
06:05 PerlJam 15 for me in the summer.
06:05 brad__ cool. when i started, perl5 was "beta"
06:06 brad__ it really blew me away at the time
06:06 brad__ still does
06:06 PerlJam perl6 will do that too  :-)
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06:06 brad__ things i take for granted now like context-sensitive evaluation...tres cool!
06:08 brad__ it will be neat to see how high parrot implementation can crawl up the "great programming language shootout" list
06:08 brad__ i have always thought parrot would be the best choice for a dynamic runtime for firefox
06:08 brad__ why should i have to use js?!?!
06:09 PerlJam parrot needs to achieve ubiquity in browsers and webservers IMHO
06:10 brad__ agreed, although it will be tough, the mozilla.org people are stuck on tamarin (the next js runtime), and they have no interest in language neutrality
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06:10 Coke_ whoa, parrot seems viable?!
06:11 PerlJam heh
06:11 PerlJam someone was talking to the mozilla people about embedding parrot a while back.
06:11 Coke_ (what happened to audreyt). Near as I can tell work, and illness. She's in the hospital ATM.
06:11 PerlJam I wonder what ever became of that.
06:11 brad__ i hope audrey gets better
06:11 PerlJam Coke_: what sort of illness?
06:11 brad__ harumph
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06:16 brad_ whoops
06:18 brad_ anyone still here
06:20 allbery_b hepatitis, type B
06:21 brad_ allbery_b - what was the context of that?
06:21 brad_ my connection dropped
06:21 allbery_b <Coke_> (what happened to audreyt). Near as I can tell work, and illness. She's in the hospital ATM.
06:21 allbery_b <PerlJam> Coke_: what sort of illness?
06:21 PerlJam allbery_b: bummer :(
06:21 brad_ hep b is pretty serious
06:22 brad_ thats too bad
06:22 brad_ are you the same allbery_b who is so helpful in #haskell?
06:22 allbery_b apparently she got lucky and has the simple version, she should be back in business in a week or so
06:22 allbery_b yep
06:22 Coke_ hah: http://xkcd.com/c224.html
06:22 lambdabot Title: xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe
06:23 allbery_b (but, well, nots of us are helpful in #haskell, just most folks were concentrating on Boney's questions)
06:23 allbery_b er, lots of us
06:23 * allbery_b should really be in bed...
06:24 brad_ i have "a haskell study plan" open in a screen split pane right now!
06:25 allbery_b I'mnot much more than a beginner myself, I've figured out monads but often miss that I can use functors instead :)
06:27 brad_ i pretty much wedged on functors
06:27 brad_ i know what it is when i read it, thats it thought
06:27 brad_ not sure i actually need to know that part
06:27 brad_ just like in perl, i sorta know what i need to know, not everything
06:27 allbery_b functors are the step below monads, and are simpler; I'm paying the price for hopping right over them on the way
06:28 allbery_b but functors vs. monads are part of haskell
06:28 allbery_b s version of TIMTOWTDI
06:28 brad_ thats what i figure
06:28 brad_ haskell is sort of like perl, you can get away with a lot without knowing the deep stuff
06:29 allbery_b some of the deep stuff you don't have to know at all.  the mathy types often wank about category theory, butwhile monads were taken from category theory you don't really need to know anything about them even for complex monad usage
06:30 allbery_b @go you could have invented monads
06:30 lambdabot http://sigfpe.blogspot.com/2006/08/yo​u-could-have-invented-monads-and.html
06:30 lambdabot Title: A Neighborhood of Infinity: You Could Have Invented Monads! (And Maybe You Alrea ...
06:30 brad_ yeah, i pretty much stop reading haskell-cafe posts when they go too far down that route
06:30 allbery_b good article on how to work out monads without getting anywhere near the fancy maths
06:30 brad_ just no need and frankly no time and likely not smart enough anyway
06:31 allbery_b I read them in the vague hope that some of it'll stick, but I'm funny that way
06:31 allbery_b do a lot of learning by osmosis, always have
06:33 brad_ haskell-cafe has some gems, mostly crap though, like any mailing list
06:33 brad_ wonder if there is a perl6 equivalent
06:34 allbery_b perl6-users but it doesn't have a lot of traffic as yet
06:34 brad_ i will dive in as soon as i think the syntax is settled
06:35 brad_ i tried making a deep dive about a year ago, but when i realized how fast the target was moving, decided i had better things to do than chase a moving target
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06:35 allbery_b well, it looks like it's finally starting to settle, lwall is starting to push some stuff past 6.0, implying that he's targeting a 6.0-release
06:36 brad_ ah, so he is going to let some features slip?
06:36 brad_ to try to nail down the 6.0 featureset?
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06:36 PerlJam He's going to let some
06:36 PerlJam He's going to let some "features" go where they belong -- in modules
06:37 allbery_b I was thinking of ;-syntax for MMD
06:37 PerlJam But the syntax has settled down quite a bit.
06:37 brad_ mmd?
06:37 PerlJam even though there have been a few minor changes in the last month or so
06:37 allbery_b multiparameter method dispatch
06:37 brad_ ah
06:37 brad_ maybe i should dig up the apocalypses again
06:38 brad_ if they are actually stable at this point
06:38 allbery_b the apocalypses are frozen.  and as such, very out of date
06:38 allbery_b the synopses are where it's at
06:38 brad_ oh, then what are the design docs?
06:39 brad_ AH
06:39 brad_ i confused the two
06:39 brad_ and lets not forget the exegesi or whatever
06:39 allbery_b the acopalypses are the initial thinking about the design, saved for posterity
06:39 brad_ the synopsi catted together seem like they are destined to be the next perldocs
06:40 allbery_b the exegeses are later thinking about what the apocalypses mean
06:40 allbery_b the synopses are the actual design
06:40 allbery_b and yes, they're at least a skjeleton for the pods.  but rather incomplete as yet, for that
06:41 allbery_b and lwall changed at least 3 synopses just today, so it's far from frozen just yet
06:42 PerlJam most of the recent changes are minorish semantic changes.  The syntax hasn't changed (much :)
06:42 allbery_b yeh
06:42 * allbery_b really needs to go to bed, approaching 2am here and he's ready to fall over.  'night
06:43 PerlJam good night allbery_b
06:44 PerlJam brad_: S05, S06, and S12 are must-reads if you're interested in perl6.  (Though you'll probably have to read the other synopses to understand them :-)
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06:44 PerlJam brad_: S05, S06, and S12 are must-reads if you're interested in perl6.  (Though you'll probably have to read the other synopses to understand them :-)
06:45 brad_ i will have to check those ones out
06:46 brad_ well i must be going, dog wants to be taken out to whiz
06:46 brad_ take care
06:46 PerlJam It's a bit past my bed time too, so I'm out as well.
06:46 PerlJam buenos noches!
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10:29 Aankhen`` I apologize for being out-of-date, but... are there any provisions to facilitate event-driven programming in Perl 6?  I seem to recall some sort of discussion regarding it, but I can't remember any specifics.
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12:21 moritz I've just seen on /. that there is another Google Summer of Code this year...
12:22 moritz is perl6 going to offer any projects?
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13:14 Coke_ parrot surely should, even if p6 doesn't. =-)
13:14 Coke_ bah. when is the TPF grant submissiond eadline?
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13:16 rindolf Hi all.
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14:00 pmurias rindolf: hi
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15:01 pmurias is anyone here working on multimethods?
15:01 * pmurias is coding a naive implementation for fun
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15:17 cmarcelo pmurias: moose. is your fun implementation of MM available somewhere?
15:18 * nothingmuch waves at cmarcelo
15:18 cmarcelo nothingmuch: hey :-)
15:18 nothingmuch hola =)
15:19 nothingmuch what's up (code wise, have you been doing something interesting lately?)
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15:22 cmarcelo I've been reading the Art of Metaobject book and suddenly lots of MO(H) seems to be clearer now :).. besides that I'm focused on a talk I'm going to do about Perl 5 (and 6) to my friends => I intent to show crazy things like FuseFS mounting svn repos, network simulation stuff.. all with CPAN toys. They like Ruby/Python but I think they'll like CPAN more :o)
15:22 cmarcelo nothingmuch: what about you? hiking? :o)
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15:23 nothingmuch cool
15:23 nothingmuch i'm off to new york today
15:23 nothingmuch i'm at stevan's house doing work stuff
15:23 nothingmuch but I'm going to have fun this weekend
15:23 nothingmuch then it's more work stuff
15:23 pmurias cmarcelo: ci it in
15:23 svnbot6 r15273 | pmurias++ | MMD in p5
15:23 svnbot6 r15273 | pmurias++ | * a rough initial stage
15:23 svnbot6 r15273 | pmurias++ | * no subtyping
15:23 svnbot6 r15273 | pmurias++ | * carps at ambiguitis
15:23 nothingmuch there are some cute CPAN projects on "a low flame"
15:23 nothingmuch (i donm't know if you can say that in english?)
15:24 nothingmuch but nothing special
15:24 cmarcelo "a low flame" = ??
15:24 demq "backburner" is often the expression
15:24 nothingmuch ah
15:24 demq but on a low flame shouldnt be too hard to understand imo
15:24 nothingmuch as in i'm only giving them a little bit of love, they are not being actively worked on
15:24 demq is now known as dmq
15:24 nothingmuch but they are progressing slowly
15:24 dmq sure that would be on the back-burner
15:25 nothingmuch thanks =)
15:25 nothingmuch i think my dream of becoming a rapper is not going to work out if I can't speak english that well
15:25 nothingmuch hmm
15:25 nothingmuch then again rappers usually can't speak english that well
15:26 lichtkind dmq are you Thomas Fahle ?
15:26 dmq no. im Yves Orton
15:26 nothingmuch dmq is The Regex Magician Yves Orton
15:26 nothingmuch eep, too slow
15:26 cmarcelo nothingmuch: nice. not much work on "object metaness" then?
15:27 dmq also known as demerphq
15:27 nothingmuch no, i haven't done almost any of that since the port... mostly i'd like to get feedback from audrey on how it's working out IRL
15:27 pmurias is "eval {...};ok $@" the right way to test exceptions (Test::More)
15:27 pmurias ?
15:27 nothingmuch and then stevan and I will try to workit into Moose or it's own sugar layer
15:27 pmurias lunch&
15:27 buetow joined perl6
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15:29 lichtkind dmq french?
15:29 lichtkind gr i mixed that
15:29 dmq niet.
15:29 lichtkind russian :)
15:29 dmq ich bin Kanadisch.
15:29 * rgs hands a baguette and a camembert to dmq.
15:29 dmq love french food tho.
15:30 dmq and i wish i spoke french.
15:30 dmq course i wish i spoke german as well.
15:30 dmq and come to think of it, in the seven years ive been in germany my english has gone to hell as well. :-)
15:30 dmq so i am a nonligual :-)
15:31 lichtkind poor dmq
15:31 cmarcelo nothingmuch: cool. keep me on the loop.. ;)
15:31 nothingmuch will do =)
15:33 masak http://patricklogan.blogspot​.com/2007/02/its-fiddly.html
15:33 lambdabot Title: Making it stick.: It's Fiddly
15:33 masak (STM, that is)
15:33 masak any thoughts on this?
15:38 andara left perl6
15:39 lichtkind dmq so we weill see us tuesday :)
15:40 dmq thought so.
15:40 dmq going with strat then?
15:40 dmq might see me on wednessday too, depending on what talk you go to.
15:40 dmq ;-)
15:41 lichtkind dmq yes going back to ffm but im not shure when
15:42 dmq will you attend the regex talk at GPW?
15:43 lichtkind dmq yeah i checked this button , im pending but since 6pan is still future musik like we say in german i come to yours :)
15:45 cmarcelo pmurias: re: MM, I'll take a look, tks for commiting.
15:45 dmq well, the other one sounds interesting too
15:53 VanilleBert left perl6
15:55 lichtkind dmq yes but such things i rather play with or read about that hear others talk about
15:55 gaal_ joined perl6
15:59 [M]erk Does anything actually parse and use Perl-6.0.0-STD.pm yet, or is it just there?
16:02 [particle] [M]erk: pugs can parse it, but nothing uses it yet
16:02 [particle] it's only been a week....
16:10 [M]erk Wow. I just realized that I am having / will have a six day weekend!
16:10 [M]erk YAY!
16:10 [M]erk 6 1/2
16:13 buetow You are lucky
16:13 diakopter joined perl6
16:13 [M]erk My county closes school at the slightest amount of snow.
16:13 [M]erk So we've been closed every since halfway through tuesday.
16:13 buetow Ah, i ve heard about this, USA, very cold now
16:14 [M]erk Then we get presidents day.
16:17 [M]erk And then when I finally get back after not having a week of school, I get to get out early to go to a track meet.
16:20 iblechbot joined perl6
16:24 pmurias is anyone here familiar with MP6/KP6?
16:27 * pmurias will propably try to add the multimethod code to KP6 when he finishes subtyping
16:30 mj41 joined perl6
16:31 Maddingue joined perl6
16:39 * [particle] is somewhat familiar
16:49 Coke_ nothingmuch: where in NY?
16:52 * [particle] wonders who here is familiar with generators
16:53 [particle] iterators in parrot are bothering me
16:53 [particle] we have continuations, we should be using generators instead
16:54 [particle] but i need some help in applying the concept, since i don't know the lisp family of languages
16:56 pmurias particle: generators also appear in python...
16:59 [particle] i need some help with design issues
17:00 gaal joined perl6
17:07 pmurias i'm probably not much help as i have never really used them
17:08 DebolazX joined perl6
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17:13 nothingmuch Coke_: my hotel is near central park, on the west
17:13 nothingmuch i'm going to walk around in t he day
17:13 nothingmuch see museums and stuff at random
17:13 nothingmuch tonight i'm going to the tonic
17:13 nothingmuch tomorrow night i don't know what i'll do yet
17:13 [particle] ooh, tonic.
17:14 nothingmuch maybe the village vanguard
17:14 [particle] my old hood
17:14 nothingmuch and sunday night i'm going back
17:14 rindolf joined perl6
17:14 rindolf Hi all.
17:15 thepler joined perl6
17:15 justatheory joined perl6
17:15 [particle] nm: been to nyc before?
17:16 idiotmax joined perl6
17:17 TimToady morning everyone
17:17 dmq morning
17:17 qmole morning
17:17 rindolf Hi TimToady
17:17 TimToady guten abent, dmq
17:18 andara joined perl6
17:18 rindolf Hi dmq, qmole
17:18 diakopter howdy TimToday
17:18 * qmole is glad it isn't morning. it's weekend now!
17:18 diakopter TimToady; sorry
17:18 rindolf Hi diakopter
17:18 dmq guten abend. but im not german, so its ok. i do much worse. :-)
17:19 * [particle] ~~ at non-lingual dmq
17:19 REPLeffect Morning TimToady
17:20 dmq heh
17:22 dmq so does that mean friday just started for you, or its saturday now? (can never remember)
17:22 TimToady California is pretty much behind everyone, so it's still Friday
17:22 TimToady except for HI and AK
17:22 dmq TGIF :-)
17:23 mdiep joined perl6
17:23 dmq poets day!
17:23 TimToady that's easy enough for you to say on the other end of it...
17:24 qmole hmm
17:25 TimToady hmm?
17:25 qmole funnily enough, the only wall clock in our office is set to california time
17:25 qmole looks like -8
17:25 TimToady I'm always living with wall time...
17:25 qmole heh
17:25 REPLeffect I believe it is 9:25, isn't it?
17:26 TimToady close enough as makes no matter
17:26 TimToady (which phrase is *not* native Californian unless you're an Okie)
17:27 REPLeffect from Muscogie?
17:27 [particle] the californians follow up with 'dude'
17:27 TimToady only the surfer dudes, dude!
17:28 TimToady actually, dude has become another four-letter word now.
17:28 dmq "poets day" == "piss off early tomorrows saturday"
17:28 TimToady Dude! only the surfer dudes, dude!
17:28 dmq an old boss told me a dude is pimple on a horses bum.
17:29 REPLeffect So, its usage is like some people use the f-word, eh?
17:29 TimToady horses don't come with bums here
17:29 REPLeffect The all-encompassing adjective.
17:29 dmq i took this to mean he didnt like me reffering to him as dude. :-)
17:29 REPLeffect dude.
17:29 * qmole poets-s
17:29 qmole have a good friday
17:29 [particle] if wishes were horses, beggars would ride
17:29 TimToady as far as I know dude has not yet got all the verbal forms
17:29 [particle] dude me!
17:30 [particle] that doesn't really work, does it
17:30 REPLeffect The all encompassing interjection? :-)
17:31 TimToady Cultural leadership is the price Californians pay for lagging in everything else.
17:32 [particle] i spent forever in a kinkos there one day
17:32 REPLeffect There are so many jokes that could be made about that statement...
17:32 REPLeffect ... I don't know where to start :-)
17:33 TimToady well, most of them would be copies anyway
17:33 [particle] then my work is done
17:33 TimToady hard to come up with an original joke about Kinkos
17:33 [particle] i can come up with an original copy
17:34 [particle] ah, rats. i thought it was an original copy, but it's a genuine facsimilie
17:34 REPLeffect (still trying to figure out where to start)
17:35 * [particle] joins #Ofun
17:35 TimToady I once had some shoes made out of genuine porvair leather.
17:35 TimToady I was trying to figure out if that was a 0 or an O...
17:35 bernhard joined perl6
17:35 REPLeffect still scanning the joke landscape.
17:35 REPLeffect trying to make the portrait of a perfect joke.
17:35 REPLeffect and send it in a letter.
17:36 TimToady that would make you some kind of terrorist
17:36 TimToady since the perfect joke is not survivable
17:36 REPLeffect only if I used a typewriter.
17:37 [particle] you'd have to sign it UNAJOKER
17:37 * diakopter climbs down the pun chain, slowly
17:37 REPLeffect that'd make me a copy-cat.
17:37 REPLeffect appropriate for kinkos.
17:40 REPLeffect genuine facscimile -- isn't that like "genuine diamels"?
17:40 REPLeffect or is that diameles?
17:44 [particle] that's pure speculation
17:46 mdiep joined perl6
17:49 TimToady anyway, before I wander off, did anyone have any questions about Perl 6 (the language aspiring to be the perfect joke)?
17:50 kolibrie TimToady: I did have one question about that 'for' loop with an if in it, from yesterday
17:50 kolibrie does that make it act like grep?
17:50 TimToady yes, grep is just another list comprehension syntax.
17:51 kolibrie that's what I thought, but it was not obvious, so I thought I'd better check
17:51 TimToady except grep is limited to returning the exact values it got, and the more general forms can return something related instead.
17:52 TimToady (without mutating $_)
17:52 kolibrie ah, right
17:57 xinming_ joined perl6
18:02 avar TimToady: You've probably been asked this before, but what was the problem you were solving that led to what hashes in p5 are in scalar context?:)
18:04 TimToady the problem of figuring out how many hash table entries were being used.  :)
18:04 REPLeffect_ joined perl6
18:06 avar TimToady: hehe:)
18:20 amnesiac joined perl6
18:23 Coke_ TimToady: I had a question.
18:23 Coke_ in tcl, you can set a proc to fire when entering or leaving a user defined procedure. In perl6, looks like PRE and POST are the hooks here. is there a way to specify this *after* the sub is declared?
18:24 neonse joined perl6
18:24 Coke_ also, in tcl, you can additionally have something fire before/after each *line* of the sub. any interest in that level of granularity for Perl 6?
18:24 Coke_ (in tcl, you can't do any of this when you define the sub, you have to tack it on.)
18:24 sunnavy joined perl6
18:44 jdv79 is there anything like java's annotations in p6?
18:45 awwaiid joined perl6
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18:51 TimToady I'm not familiar with java's annotations
18:51 TimToady PRE and POST and all the other blocks are just traits that can be modified
18:51 TimToady though you might just want ENTER and LEAVE blocks unless you're doing DBC
18:52 TimToady the line-by-line stuff sounds like something that should have to be declared in advance as a pessimization.
18:53 TimToady either that, or the run-time has to pessimize the code when you supply such a property, and that potentially poses problems if some code is running optimized versions already.
18:55 TimToady though for at least some kinds of code it doesn't matter if you're running two different code paths
18:55 TimToady I can imagine some optimizations that depend on outside invariants that the pessimization might vary though.
18:56 pdcawley joined perl6
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19:00 rindolf joined perl6
19:00 rindolf Hi all.
19:06 turrepurre joined perl6
19:08 TimToady it would be rather unfortunate if the optimized and pessimized versions kept a given state variable in two different places, for instance.
19:09 jdv79 sorta gotcha, thanks
19:09 TimToady but we probably have to solve this for using a debugger anyway...
19:10 TimToady I assume that's the primary use of Tcl's every-line hook
19:10 jisom joined perl6
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19:12 dmq timtoady: it just occured to me, if the [ in <+[ is mandatory, then i dont have to change the meaning of (?+ or (?- since for it to be relative goto/recursion it would have to be numeric.
19:12 [particle] dmq: you can add with named rules, too, not just charclasses
19:12 [particle] eg: <+foo-[abc]>
19:13 dmq is that relevent in p5 tho?
19:13 dmq is there an equivelent p5 structure id need to use?
19:13 [particle] you said <+[, i assumed you meant p6
19:14 dmq trying to make p5's forthcoming enhanced class syntax as close as possible to p6.
19:14 dmq (? in p5 is < in p6
19:14 [particle] identifiers can't start with a number
19:15 dmq btw, wasnt trying to be snarky. it was an honest question.
19:15 dmq oh sweet.
19:15 dmq yay i dont have to worry about changing (?+1) then
19:15 dmq cool.
19:16 [particle] (?+...) is now a multimethod :)
19:17 dmq ah.
19:17 diotalevi multimethods for everyone!
19:17 dmq so since (?+[ is unambiguous, i can use it, as well as (?[...]) and (?-[...]) for extended char classes. whee!
19:17 [particle] it's a bit confusing, but there are more confusing things in perl 5
19:18 diotalevi :-) btw, I think I'm going to make that ref/defined multimethod promoting thing into Acme::Builtin::Multimethod just because I don't want anyone to expect me to support it.
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21:04 lichtkind good nicght saviours of the world :)
21:06 moritz lichtkind: 'nacht ;)
21:10 rindolf lichtkind: night.
21:11 lichtkind :)
21:11 cjeris left perl6
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21:50 * pdcawley wonders if anyone else has seen Ian Piumarta's talk at Stannford about Coke & Pepsi?
21:54 * moritz certainly not ;)
21:54 moritz it's just estimated 8*10^6 m away ;)
21:58 svnbot6 r15274 | lwall++ | operator precedence now supplied as return type autocoercions
21:59 amf joined perl6
22:00 TimToady n
22:00 TimToady or maybe y
22:01 nwc10 junctions - the practical alternative to committing to a decision. :-)
22:02 TimToady lazy unification, yum
22:06 REPLeffect_ joined perl6
22:10 svnbot6 r15275 | lwall++ | more precedence cleanup
22:11 Limbic_Region joined perl6
22:15 rindolf perlbot: karma lwall
22:15 perlbot Karma for lwall: 12
22:15 jabbot rindolf: lwall has karma of 166
22:18 diakopter karma larry
22:18 jabbot diakopter: larry has karma of 7
22:19 TimToady that and $1.50 will buy me a cup of coffee.  :)
22:20 diakopter karma autrijius
22:20 jabbot diakopter: autrijius has neutral karma
22:20 diakopter karma autrijus
22:20 jabbot diakopter: autrijus has karma of 574
22:20 nwc10 you can't get a sponsorship/endorsement deal on coffee?
22:20 nwc10 :-(
22:20 diakopter karma autrija
22:20 jabbot diakopter: autrija has neutral karma
22:20 TimToady not after they find out I have high blood pressure...
22:21 diakopter karma autrijum
22:21 jabbot diakopter: autrijum has neutral karma
22:21 rindolf karma autrijus
22:21 jabbot rindolf: autrijus has karma of 574
22:21 rindolf karma shlomif
22:21 jabbot rindolf: shlomif has neutral karma
22:23 moritz karma rindolf
22:23 jabbot moritz: rindolf  has neutral karma
22:31 TimToady perlbot: karma karma
22:31 perlbot Karma for karma: 33
22:31 jabbot TimToady: karma has neutral karma
22:31 svnbot6 r15276 | lwall++ | parse delegation
22:32 TimToady nap++
22:32 TimToady karma nap
22:32 jabbot TimToady: nap has karma of 1
22:32 TimToady good enough for me
22:32 TimToady nap &
22:33 rindolf TimToady: enjoy!
22:35 Limbic_Region out of curiosity, anyone here use oz/motzart/alice ?
22:36 rindolf Limbic_Region: what are they?
22:37 Limbic_Region they are programming languages
22:38 Limbic_Region primary interest is concurrency and constraints
22:38 rindolf Limbic_Region: I see.
22:38 rindolf First time I recall hearing of them.
22:39 ludan joined perl6
22:40 buetow joined perl6
22:40 Limbic_Region diotalevi turned me on to them
22:40 Limbic_Region I was thinking of prolog but it sounds like these are better
22:42 explorer joined perl6
22:44 REPLeffect_ is now known as REPLeffect
22:45 lumi_ Limbic_Region: I'm reading about it, trying to find an edge
22:45 Limbic_Region I just downloaded and installed alice
22:45 Limbic_Region my first program is going to be a magic square solver
22:45 Limbic_Region once I figure out how
22:46 * Limbic_Region never learned ML
22:46 rindolf Limbic_Region: I've worked a bit with O'Caml and SML.
22:46 rindolf Limbic_Region: I have the Graham Function program in O'Caml too.
22:46 Limbic_Region heh, turns out they have a magic square solver in the samples directory
22:47 rindolf Limbic_Region: heh.
22:47 rindolf Limbic_Region: write a program to calculate the Graham function then.
22:47 rindolf :-)
22:47 rindolf I have it in O'Caml, Perl 5 (on CPAN too), Perl 6, and Common Lisp.
22:48 pdcawley LR: I've been looking at the Oz book.
22:48 pdcawley Looks interesting.
22:52 Limbic_Region pdcawley - alice is just the next generation of Oz
22:52 Limbic_Region and yes, looks interesting
22:57 Psyche^ joined perl6
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23:05 GeJ morning lambdamøøse
23:05 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
23:05 Limbic_Region in any case, it looks more complicated then copying/pasting my real problem so back burnered until at least 2007-03-19
23:07 eric256 has anyone been able to get the AJAX version of the "Run Perl Now" script to work?  it always hangs on me and says it took to long to complete, while the non-ajax version works fine
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